Sunday, November 6, 2011

Islam's Impact on World Affairs

84 comments:

Koala Bear said...

That video has been on YT since 2009. Would be interesting to see how much worse it is now in 2011.

Radical Moderate said...

On another note, I watched the movie ‘The Message” starring Anthony Quinn. For those of you who don’t know the Message is a Dawah movie released in 1977. It’s actually a pretty good movie for the time it was made, think Jesus of Nazarath combined with Ben Hurr or The Ten Commands.

Like I said it’s a Dawah movie, but be that as it may there are a couple of telling scenes. The first that stands out is when the Meccans travel to Abbasydia to retrieve the runaway Muslims some were slaves and some free men.

The Christian King questions them with the Meccans leading the prosecution. The Muslims are talking about social justice, feeding the poor, sharing the wealth, and drops biblical names, Jesus, Mosses, Abraham etc….

To which the Christian King responds “Where did you hear these names….What do you know of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ… Tell me what does your Quran say of Christ?”

The response from the Muslim delegation “These names are mentioned in the Quran… Jesus is a noble messenger one of the Apostles of God”

Now this I think it gets interesting because the Meccan’s respond…

“Apostle they say an apostle not the SON, NOT THE SON… They say you worship THREE gods not one, they deny Jesus is the Son of God”

Now the Muslim responds to these truths, not by admitting them but instead he recites some part of the Quran talking about Jesus being born of a virgin and high praise of Mary etc…

To which the Christian King responds…
“The difference between us and you is no greater than this line” and he draws a line in the sand.

What I find interesting about this is the that any Christian would think that denying the Son of GOD, falsely accusing Christians of worshiping three Gods, as well as denying the blood atoning sacrifice of the Crucifixion as well as the resurrection is no greater in difference then a line drawn in the sand.

Now I do agree that there is a line between what Christians and Muslims believe, however this dividing line is wider then that gap from one end of the known and unknown universe to the other end.

Radical Moderate said...

Another scene from the movie “The Message” that caught my attention is the reason given for Muslims to fight the Meccans.

Now I have heard this reason given a thousand times by Muslims.

“The Meccans had stolen all the Muslims property after they fled Mecca and were going to sell their stuff in Damascus. So the Muslims where just getting back what was rightfully theirs, that is their earthly possessions.

Now think about this for a second. The Quran condemns the hypocrite Muslims who do not go out and fight in Allahs cause because they love their earthly possessions to much.

The Quran implores Muslims to sacrifice their earthly possessions to go out and fight in Allahs Cause.

But the reason given to fight is so that the Muslims can go and retrieve their earthly possessions????????

No compare that to what Jesus tells is followers to do when persecution becomes too great.
“When persecution becomes to great FLEE TO ANOTHER CITY”…

You can see the movie on Youtube, like I said it’s a Dahwa movie so I think it is good to watch because this is what is being shown to un suspecting people who have no knowledge or discernment.

The Message

Another thing that is interesting is that the leave out the battle of the trench and the slaughter of the jews, really from what I can tell there is no real intereaction with the Jews of Medina. All though I do not think they are identified as Jews per say there are some pretty devious, and nefarious characters :)

donna60 said...

NAAAAAAAAAH! I'm not buying it! The cause of conflict is s-i-n, and sin is everywhere. There was plenty of conflict due to racial tensions in the United States long before Islam became an issue.

I can't be the only person who remembers the Detroit riot in 1967.

What would this speaker call the OWS? Because according to the news, it is becoming uglier every minute. That might very well end in police force and heavy rioting, and that isn't about Islam. It is about greed and injustice. Neither side is dealing very mercifully or kindly to the other.

I'm just saying.

search 4 truth said...

Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Donna

And Islam is a deception by Satan to lead people to sin. I really don't get your rational here. If Satan causes racial conflict, then be consistent and say Islam causes conflict. If you are a Muslim you are commanded to subjugate or slaughter all non Muslims. Christians are not. Maybe your being sarcastic and it went over my head. But I don't see it.

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Mike A Robinson said...

Countless Americans are unaware of the Islamic conflict within Thailand, China, and Eastern Europe. The great majority of the military conflicts around the world involve Islamic aggression against Non-Muslim populations. The core solution is for the Gospel to reach Muslims; for them to repent and follow the Prince of Peace as Savior: Jesus Christ. Christians should pray for and evangelize Muslims as we stand for truth. Without Islamic effect “the world is a pretty peaceful place.”

David Wood said...

Donna said: "NAAAAAAAAAH! I'm not buying it! The cause of conflict is s-i-n, and sin is everywhere."

It sounds like you think the teachings of Islam are irrelevant to the violence.

Do you really believe that Islam's clear commands to fight and subjugate non-Muslims has nothing to do with Muslims fighting and subjugating non-Muslims? Of course human beings are sinners. But is SIN + NOTHING no different from SIN + VIOLENT TEACHINGS? Do the violent teachings add nothing to the equation? The evidence suggests otherwise.

D335 said...

@Donna

I would like to change your POV on sin.
Sin according to Christianity is known after the introduction of LAW. And the law makes sin to the uttermost SINFUL.
-----------------------------------
Romans 7:7-15 NIV

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
----------------------------------

In this part I'd like to show that sin is the part that we recognize as going against the law. But make no mistake that many sins happened because we /community keeps inventing laws TO JUDGE other people according to "our" standards.
ALSO By no means that Christianity suggested Christians to break the law!

Some even suggested natural occurrences such as disaster is the by product of sin.
1. If it's written in Bible (with of course explanation WHY God made it happen) therefore it was the wrath of God.
2. Natural disaster often occurs because natural order and NOT because of Sin.
("for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45b, NKJV, emphasis added)

Now let's think about "CONFLICTS"
does the same rule in Matthew 5:45 apply>?

Remember Islam do make LAWS within their scripture (Quran and Hadith)that for many of us Christians believe that Islam is inducing conflict.

D335

D335 said...

@Donna60

again about Sin, the passage of John 16, refer to verse 8 and 9.
---------------------------------
2b in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 WHEN HE COMES, HE WILL PROVE THE WORLD TO BE IN THE WRONG ABOUT SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS AND JUDGEMENT: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

----------------------------------
I'm also involved in a related discussion regarding Christians and military service. I'd like to share it with you concerning the part of: SIN, LAW and JUDGEMENT

**Thou shalt not kill (no6)** is easily misinterpreted as to be total pacifist. However Romans 13:1 and also the Matthew 22:16-21 explain in detail that Christianity MUST differ between the church and state.
----------------------------------
Romans 13:1
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Matthew 22:21
Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
----------------------------------
Within this 2 passages, I would like to explain the law as it was MADE BY THE AUTHORITIES, and as the authorities are ESTABLISHED BY GOD. (therefor if God doesn't like it, He'll probably send a fireball or two)

Unfortunately most people (including Islam) believe in such laws are "direct" law from God's mouth. Therefore they did not consider that scripture itself is not the penal code book of a supreme court, rather than God's revelation as a guidance of faith.

More over people condemn this and that, as they forgot that they /themselves are sinners of the worst type, the hypocrites!. They JUDGE and passed down judgements, claiming SIN on others, yet they forgot that their own eyes blocked.

As a Presbyterian (which some called to be Calvinist false preaching or whatever), I must admit that HUMAN NATURE IS SIN.

Romans 8:3-4
3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the SINFUL NATURE,b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.c And so he condemned sin in sinful man,d 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the SINFUL NATURE but according to the Spirit.

The big question is, can you defy your own nature? Are you not also a sinner?

I always regarded myself as:
"I am a repeat offender. I am a repeat sinner. None of you are better, we are all sinners. Only Jesus can save all of us"

Now we refer back to:
Are Conflict, Natural Disaster, Illness etc etc products of sin?

My answer would be:
If God directly sanctioned it in the bible (also explained why)YES. If not, you claim SIN to be the causes of everything, therefor condemned yourself into a sin.
-----------------------------------
Roman 14:22-23
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. BLESSED IS THE MAN WHO DOES NOT CONDEMN HIMSELF BY WHAT HE APPROVES 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and EVERYTHING THAT DOES NOT COME FROM FAITH IS SIN.
---------------------------------
D335

aaron said...

Don;t worry christianity is spreading much faster in china then islam would. offfically we have 4.1 million but in reality due to under ground churches we got around 40- 54million and growing fastest. islam is estimated around 20-30 million. Sun Yat Sen is the most well known chrsitian who lead the rebellion against Qing dynasty.Islam will never take over China, If they do anything all the other ehtnic groups will come at them like a a bag of hammers. Chinese people will never give up thousands of years of cultural identity for it. one reason why so many chinese are in christianity. we are still allowed to have our keep our traditions but also get the spirtuality some are searching for. win-win situation:). one child policy stops islam growing in our country like it did in europe.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

I'd say a human's nature is BOTH to SIN and ALSO DO GOOD. That's cause part of our nature is EMPATHY, provided our brain functions properly. BUT what makes Christianity so awesome in this regard is that IT EXTENDS THT EMPTAHY TO HUMANS WORLDWIDE n doesnt just limit it to a grp as is instinctively the case. thts where Christianity is COUNTER-intuitive n yet it has been shown to benefit humanity +vely in this regard and many others as well.
Same goes for other sins say stealing, fornication etc. WE AS HUMANS NATURALLY DONT LIKE TO STEAL FROM OUR OWN BROS OR GRP NEARBY OR FORNICATE WITH THE WOMEN OF OUR GRP BUT WE CARE SIGNIFIANTLY LESS ABT OHTER WOMEN OR ABT THEIR PROPERTY ETC. AGAIN "love thy enemy" " pray for those who persecute u" n other such statements reinforce the extension of thes rules to ALL HUMANS N IT CLD BE ARGUED TO ALL SELF CONSCIOUS CREATURES THT WE MIGHT COME ACROSS WITH THE EXCEPTION OFSATAN N HIS MINIONS.

D335 said...

@jonhnyKZJ

sorry dude, your opinion as not back up by at least a very simple reference ==> does not matter at all.

Back your **** up! Make us believe!

Kim said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-LtJyI0DY0&feature=related

donna60 said...

Jonnykzj,

Again I find myself in agreement with you. We do have a flesh, which lusts after the things of the flesh. But we also have a spirit that thirsts after righteousness, and we were born in the image of God, pure and innocent, and thirsting after righteousness.


1.Ecclesiastes 7:29
Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.”



Matthew 19:13-15
13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

donna60 said...

David, what I meant that I wasn't buying it was the statement that if there was no Muslims, the world would be largely at peace.

All kinds of people do all kinds of sinning, and frequently it causes violence.In New York this week, hasn't there already been rapes and muggings, and thefts thanks to the OWSers?--Well that isn't peace.

donna60 said...

D335, I haven't the slightest notion what POV means. And anyway if you are a presbyterian, and you think you are going to convince me that TULIP isn't a wicked doctrine that slanders my precious Lord and Savior--probably not.

I was born in the image of God. God Himself blew the breath of life into my nostrils, and I was born loving what was right. However, out of my own free-will, I made the decisions to rebel against God's will.

This is according to scripture.



Genesis 2:7
7 Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.


Job 27:2-4
2 “As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice,
the Almighty, who has made my life bitter,
3 as long as I have life within me,
the breath of God in my nostrils,
4 my lips will not say anything wicked,
and my tongue will not utter lies.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


Luke 18:15-17
15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

donna60 said...

D335,
I thought I was done, and I had said everything I wanted to say to you about the heresy you are teaching, called Calvinism. But I thought about something else I wanted to say, so I got out of bed to say it.

Do you know why the Presbyterians are the most sin-sick congregations on the earth? Why they have adopted every filthy practice which God specifically forbade under the NT law of Christ?

Because from the very beginning of that denomination, Presbyterians made a decision to reject God's word. Since then, they treat it like it isn't worth much more than toilet paper.

Erase the taint of Calvinism from your brain. Pretend briefly that you have never heard of "Total depravity, Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints , and start fresh from the beginning, willing to fully subject yourself to God's unchanging word, and we can begin to talk about the nature of man.

Rale said...

@D335
@jonnykzj

???
I find jonny's comment very beautiful (I didn't follow the whole discussion though so sorry if I missed something).
Love is Christianity is all about, and it does include the whole of the creation which is regenerated through our Lord Jesus Christ.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity: not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope. 21 Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that every creature groans and travails in pain, even till now. (Rm 8)

(The word used κτίσις could refer to the whole creation)

D335 said...

@Donna60,

if you look again in my post,
I did not invite you to Calvinism because that is not my goal.

I was explaining even tho my background is a Calvinist, surely I'm portrayed as false preaching. That I don't mind.

Now you are trying to convince me to move away from it? Wow, how is that not degrading?
Sure, I'd like to call whatever your branch of Christianity is, but I won't. I'm not THAT LOW.

------------------------------

POV = means Point of View.

------------------------------

re-read my postings again if you need to, since I was explaining to you, that CONFLICTS can be:
1. Sin, therefor wrath of God if it's written in Bible (with clear explanation WHY).
2. nature ways of how a social system somehow clear itself from stagnation of social disorder.

------------------------------
You indicated that Conflicts originated from Sin. Sure, I can accept that.

Now, does Islam teachings according to "Christianity" constitute to SIN? Let me hear your argument.

You have the mic, Donna60

D335

D335 said...

@Rale

about me (D335) and JohnyKZJ. Nevermind.
There has been a long argument about copy pasting materials that is not fit for blogger comments but forum postings.

Don't get sucked into it. Enjoy your stay and continue preaching the gospel.
-----------------------------------

@JohnyKZJ

I always expect a full argument rather than you posting a short answer here and there.
Also back up your argument with references!
I expected the best from you as I will give you my best. GO FULL ARGUMENT. No short unclear paragraph!

D335

D335 said...

@to whoever Christians that want to tackle it.

make it short! In your own words!

If Jesus died on the cross and therefor forgive your past sins, and then you commit just 1 (one) sin afterwards, will you be granted heaven?

That question opens to:
1. if Yes, you just approved Calvinism on the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved /Perseverance of the saints). More explanation comes afterwards, but for now tackle the question first.
2. if No, you just claim that Jesus needs to be crucified AGAIN to forgive your new sin.
3. if you believe that there is another and better answer, go ahead but make sure it's short (do me a favor).

D335 - there is no day without learning something new!

Mike A Robinson said...

Perhaps Donna60 should start her own blog or FB page that rants and raves against Christians she disagrees with. Maybe she can start her own denomination and name herself Chief Bishop so she can issue her invectives ex cathedra. Sometimes people who press waves of ad hominem laced diatribes have a real need for patient biblical counseling. We must all strive to stand on and defend the truth found in Christ, sometimes that takes tough language and polemics, but we should all aim to deploy such with care and precision. and herein, maybe we should mainly focus on the numerous horrendous errors of Islam.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

An argument can never be technically "full" since only God knows the complete Truth. we interpret tht n get a good/satisfactory probability of the Truth but we might have to revise our understanding if it turns out tht it wasnt accurate coz of new info. HENCE all arguments i present r "full" in the sense tht i find them satisfactory till the time someone brings a better one.
NOW to address ur pt abt Jesus' crucifiction n christians accepting it being saved. I posted a verse earlier which states that not everyone who calls Jesus Lord, Lord wld enter heaven BUT ONLY THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER. This obviously means tht if good deeds do not follow as a result of accepting Christ as one's Lord n savior, hed not consider one a true believer. INFACT muslims have often criticized christianity tht the latter cld just go arnd n do wht they want n be lazy coz theyre saved anyways, which is absolutely false. THT said it is possible tht i misunderstood something u said or wht u wanted to portray as a whole etc but again thts not my intention. my intention is to pt pt out wht I THINK uve said first as does everyone n then it gets corrected, if it so needs to, in due course.
To further address ur 1st argument on sin for one Donna has quoted u some verses n other than tht again humans have BOTH in their nature the willingness to be close to God n never to rebel against Him or disobey Him n on the other hand they also at times want to coz many sinful things feel attractive in tht moment. This i can tell first hand from personal experience.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again

The overall message of the Bible seems to be clearly indicating that good works, after confessing ones faith, DEMONSTRATE whether ones faith is true or not. Here let me also quote a few Bible verses regarding "doing good deeds" and being righteous.

Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love AND GOOD WORKS,

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, SO ALSO FAITH APART FROM GOOD WORKS IS DEAD.


Galatians 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I WARN YOU AS I WARNED YOU BEFORE, THAT THOSE WHO DO SUCH THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. ...

Galatians 6:9
And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

That's also why Christians still need to fear God, not only love Him which is primary for sure, as is also mentioned in the Bible. This is so ones faith does not become tainted shld one wld revert back to a life of sin. Otherwise "fearing" God wld also not make any sense and it is clearly also part of the Biblical formula.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 n other Christians as well

I was surprised to find that my understanding of the Bible and Christianity ACTUALLY MATCHES MORE ORTHODOX N CATHOLIC CHRISTIANITY when i read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation#Catholicism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation#Catholicism

Regarding Calvanism, with the exception of God being the Ultimate Guide without Whom we cldnt achieve anything, i find quite a few things in it very appalling. It seems to go more in the direction of islam where God guides whomever He pleases without the person having any free will.
i once rejected free will but now i dont. i know the atheists claim tht if God created us and at the same time also knew wht we wld do WHILST N BE4 CREATING us then it necessary follows tht He created us in a way thtlead to us doing such n such. INFACT tht was my view as well. The problem with this WAS AMAZINGLY ADDRESSED BY CHRISTIAN ALEX JONES. Not tht i agree with everything he says but hes strong on the Bible n here i now agreehehas a point.He said IT'S AN INTERDIMESNIONAL THING SUCH THT IF ONE USES LINEAR THGHT ONLY THEN WLD ONE COME TO SUCH A CONCLUSION AS DO CALVANISTS. What i think is tht just as God retracted His Omniscience whilst He was on earth as Christ whilst maintaining THE FULL POTENTIALITY THEREOF, like Jesus not knowing the hour, He cldve done the same before creating man ALSO ADDING TO THE FACT THT souls r not linearly created i.e. they dont contain LOCALIZED PARTICLES, if one can talk of spiritual particles at all. Thus there is a true "randomness" EVEN WRT GOD, induced in His creatures which makes them have free will not only wrt themslves or other creatures but wrt God Himself thus keeping God a fair and just God which Hed otherwise not be.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

Let me answer ur questions now in light of wht ive resented beforehand:

u asked:

"If Jesus died on the cross and therefor forgive your past sins, and then you commit just 1 (one) sin afterwards, will you be granted heaven?

That question opens to:
1. if Yes, you just approved Calvinism on the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved /Perseverance of the saints). More explanation comes afterwards, but for now tackle the question first.
2. if No, you just claim that Jesus needs to be crucified AGAIN to forgive your new sin.
3. if you believe that there is another and better answer, go ahead but make sure it's short (do me a favor)."

JK- In 2 you falsely assume that if one is not granted heaven after comitting one sin again, Jesus wld need to be crcuified all over again. Remember ppl are saved by THE ACCEPTANCE OF JESUS BEING CRUCIFIED not just the crucifixion itself. in other words the crucifixion is ONLY APPLICABLE to those who accept OR HAVE FAITH IN IT otherwise everyone after Jesus' resurrection wld be saved. NOW as ive shown by verses from the Bible if you start comitting sin again after having accepted the Crucifixion UR FAITH BECOMES TAINTED n thus doesnt remain true faith n puts u back in the condition of one who has NOT ACTUALLY ACCEPTED CRIST AS HIS SVIOR. Get the pt?

D335 said...

@JohnyKZJ

Stop spamming!
You are trying to relate a full argument with truth, in where I only ask JUST YOU to provide a full argument in which means you MUST BACK UP your points, your views, making sure you have recheck it again BEFORE you post it, considering MISTAKES you've made before.

And what you did? You just rambled 4 comments of nonsense.
-----------------------------------

JK- In 2 you falsely assume that if one is not granted heaven after comitting one sin again, Jesus bla bla bla...Get the pt?

THE ANSWER IS no, I do not get your point. My question is short and I ask a short answer.
If you do not believe in either option 1 or 2, you are welcome to choose option 3, which is TO EXPLAIN IT YOURSELF.

Since beforehand I asked "CHRISTIANS" and not muslim of Quranist alone, but I let you answer anyway. Yet you divert from the QUESTION and going 3 comments of , sorry...... total BS....
If you refrain to choose from option 1,2 or 3, then DON'T ANSWER my question. Let others do it for you. In the past, you only did spamming my arguments.

D335.
---------------------------------
I re-write the question here again for any Christian who wants to tackle it.

"If Jesus died on the cross and therefor forgive your past sins, and then you commit just 1 (one) sin afterwards, will you be granted heaven?

That question opens to:
1. if Yes, you just approved Calvinism on the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved /Perseverance of the saints). More explanation comes afterwards, but for now tackle the question first.
2. if No, you just claim that Jesus needs to be crucified AGAIN to forgive your new sin.
3. if you believe that there is another and better answer, go ahead but make sure it's short (do me a favor)."

D335

D335 said...

Notice what JohnyKZJ did:

I asked a question in which a person who believes in Jesus, get a salvation thru his crucifixion for his pasts sin, and will be granted heaven or not if he commit one new sin.

Johny rambles about GOOD-DEEDS. In which I have not turn into it yet.

To Christians, may I remind you, -Johny DID NOT ACCEPT JESUS as Lord and Savior!.
-Johny is a QURANIST MUSLIM ONLY who pray 3 times a day! And he pray to LAS VEGAS!
-Johny drips oxytocin in his whatever and he can COUNT IT without immonoassay test!

Should I take your word Johny? That question cannot be ask of you, because you do not have understanding if you receive Jesus as your LORD GOD AND SAVIOR?

If you want to learn Christianity you are welcome Johny. But in no way your commentary as a muslim that refuse Hadith can provide input to OSAS /Perseverance of the saints since Quran itself believe not in Jesus as the Son of God and the LORD GOD! Quran believes not Jesus to save you! Quran believes Muhammad save you!

I hope Johny is clear on this matter.
-----------------------------------
to other Christians, the question remains the same.

make it short! In your own words!

If Jesus died on the cross and therefor forgive your past sins, and then you commit just 1 (one) sin afterwards, will you be granted heaven?

That question opens to:
1. if Yes, you just approved Calvinism on the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved /Perseverance of the saints). More explanation comes afterwards, but for now tackle the question first.
2. if No, you just claim that Jesus needs to be crucified AGAIN to forgive your new sin.
3. if you believe that there is another and better answer, go ahead but make sure it's short (do me a favor).

D335 - I'm listening.

Rale said...

@jonnykzj

"I was surprised to find that my understanding of the Bible and Christianity ACTUALLY MATCHES MORE ORTHODOX N CATHOLIC CHRISTIANITY"

I'm gonna make it short coz I'm very busy!

Your point about the crucifixion and the forgiveness of sin can be solved in the light of the eucharistic theology.

Read those verses:
16 The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? (1 Cor 10)

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and giving thanks, broke and said: Take and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come. (1 Cor 11)

The last verse is very important. At each eucharist we are commemorating the Crucifixion of the Lord. The salvific death of the Lord on the cross is being actualized every time we partake of His Body and His blood. That's why we are still bebefitting from it even if historically it happened around 2000 years ago. That's why, in the Orthodox Church, the priest says the same words said to Isaiah: (6 And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said:) "Behold this has touched your lips, and your iniquities shall be taken away, and your sin shall be cleansed." (Is 6)
That's why the communion is very important in both Catholic and Orthodox piety and theology, and it was also the case in the early Church and the writing of the early fathers (Justin the martyr, Irinaeus of Lyon...). Maybe we could talk more about this on skype.

BTW, my intention with this comment is not to polemize, but just to give the approach of Greek theology (Latin theology should be very similar on this very point).

donna60 said...

D335,
Since you are such an intelligent doctor, perhaps you should learn how to spell immunoassay quantitation assay.

donna60 said...

Search 4 truth.

I'm not questioning the facts that Islam leads to conflict. Why wouldn't it? It is based on a very materialistic world-view, and being such it rejects both justice and mercy.

I am simply stating this sad truth. The enemy of mankind is Satan. He's called the destroyer and the accuser. He isn't just leading one organization on earth however. He is all sorts of organizations, and he doesn't avoid church-buildings.

donna60 said...

D335,

What the Law did was name the sin. It took bad, ungodly actions and gave them a name. So Paul could look at his sins, exposed by the Law for what they were.

Paul was under that law, but I wasn't. My ancestors were Gaels, worshipping spirits under oak trees. Before the time of Christ, they were judged by different standards than the law, but they were judged by standards demanded by God, none the less.

Romans 2:12-16
"12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.

You asked for a definition of sin. Go to Romans 1. This is the definition of behaviors God hates, and that are considered sin.


Romans 1:28-32
28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

donna60 said...

D335,

In regards to you question

"
If Jesus died on the cross and therefor forgive your past sins, and then you commit just 1 (one) sin afterwards, will you be granted heaven?

That question opens to:
1. if Yes, you just approved Calvinism on the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved /Perseverance of the saints). More explanation comes afterwards, but for now tackle the question first.
2. if No, you just claim that Jesus needs to be crucified AGAIN to forgive your new sin.
3. if you believe that there is another and better answer, go ahead but make sure it's short (do me a favor).


Here is a novel concept for a Presbyterian. Why don't we just let God speak for Himself about this issue?

Yes, you just might very well go to hell for just one sin. Peter, who was an apostle of Jesus certainly made it clear that forgiveness and salvation to Christians wasn't guaranteed by any stretch.

Acts 8:20-22
20 But Peter replied, “May your money be destroyed with you for thinking God’s gift can be bought! 21 You can have no part in this, for your heart is not right with God. 22 Repent of your wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive your evil thoughts,

On the other hand, both Paul and John, and even Peter were witnesses that God's grace covered sin that was sincerely repented of, and turned from.


1 John 1:8-10
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

But if you are suffering any last illusions that Christians have licences to keep on sinning until their last gasps, and they are still going to be "preserved" I advise you to free yourself from these notions, STAT


Hebrews 6:4-8
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

The end of it is, that God's will for his people has always been the same.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.


Isaiah 66:2
My hands have made both heaven and earth; they and everything in them are mine. I, the Lord, have spoken!“I will bless those who have humble and contrite hearts, who tremble at my word.

D335 said...

@Donna60

THAT answer is not direct, but okay everyone wants to give a speech these days.

a. You relate to "License to Sin!
That is the claim made by the OPPONENT of Calvinism!
Calvinism IS against the license to sin! That is why total depravity stands for.

Romans 7:23 "but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."

Of how can you receive a gift but you spit on the person that gave you the gift? Total depravity means sin has conquered you, everything in you becomes corrupted and UNABLE TO REACH the glory of God.
Was that a license to : hey let's go do more sin?

Even in the alcoholic anonymous, the first step to recovery is, TO CONFESS or TO ADMIT that you are an alcoholic. In this case "sinner".


b. Grace is a gift, salvation is a gift and yes I don't have to re-explain that since you already pointed that you agree with it.

c. Jesus reminded us, that Holy Spirit will be with us! And yes, I don't have to re-explain that since you are agree with that.

---------------------------------
NOW.
As you are prepared Donna60, that is good. I was about to bring you Hebrew 6! But now READ IT AGAIN CAREFULLY as I will make capital the words that need to be carefully read.

(NIV)
4 IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE ONCE BEEN ENLIGHTENED, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO REPENTANCE.
-
To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

-----------------------------------
Can you see now how far you are actually from Calvinism? you surely are close!. Heck, by your definition you could be next to me!
Sure I see the eyes of Christians who even spit when the word calvin is uttered!
But you, you pointed Hebrew 6 for me. One of the Calvinist first moves!

If you believe that this is an act of me getting you to a Presbyterian church, I assure you not. Some near you could press the wrong view of yourself and I don't want your life not enjoyable.

But I remind you again on Romans 14. Actually the whole romans 14 if you have the time. If you not simply read Rom 14:10-13

10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

D335

D335 said...

@Donna60 again
regarding immunoassay, sure I accept that critique. Immunoassay is quantitative (means to count "HOW MUCH" is the content) and not qualitative (means to know WHAT'S THE CONTENTS actually.

Even tho I'm not clear if I missed a letter or two, but I will receive what you criticize and respond thank you.
----------------------------------

Regarding the Law and sin.
Do you know that THRU LAW, sin might become utterly sinful?

Romans 7:13

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

I will not give you too much verses for now, because I think reading long passages will drawn your energy out.

In regards, when the holy spirit came:
John 16:8-10
8 When he comes, he will PROVE TO BE IN THE WRONG ABOUT SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS AND JUDGEMENT: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

What does that means The holy spirit will prove to be in the wrong about Sin, Righteousness and Judgement?

Next we will discuss to the standard of judgement you use to condemn sin! But for now, let's not waste your time and let you read 2 of my late comments.

D335 - Cheers^^

donna60 said...

D335

"a. You relate to "License to Sin!
That is the claim made by the OPPONENT of Calvinism!
Calvinism IS against the license to sin! That is why total depravity stands for."


No, Sir. I have argued with Calvinists.

"Total Depravity" is the explanation of why everyone is unable to obey the gospel. We are born so utterly depraved, that without God's "Limited Grace" no one at all would be able to accept the gospel.

"Total Depravity is the conditon that all humans are are born into. They are so depraved, that they are utterly incapable of obedience. Not only are they incapable of obedience, they are incapable of even loving God or truth or righteousness--and let's not beat around the bush here, it came from the sin of Adam, according to John Calvin.

Which is why God had to do all of the work. The "totally deprived" human needed God to supply him with both faith and belief.

This is why John Calvin required the second heresy of Calvinism called "Unconditional Election." Which is that God never bases our salvation on anything we do. How can He? After all, we were born from the womb, utterly depraved and unable to even desire to do good.

And when does this "unconditional election occur, by the way? Well, boy howdy, it happens before the baby is even born! It doesn't matter anyway. Every single child on earth is born "totally depraved" so why not pick one totally depraved over another?

And that doctrine is called "Limited Atonement." Christ didn't die for everyone, He only died for his "elect."--And this elect is the collection of these little babies who were hand-selected by God, before they were even born

Then stacked on top of this tottering pile of heresy is the concept that the call to these "elect" (handpicked by God before they were even born) is the concept of Irresistible Grace" That means that these lucky ducks who were handpicked by God, would be unable to resist the gospel. They have no choice--how could they have a choice, they were born utterly depraved?

And that is the grievous doctrinal error is what you are trying to pawn off as "enlightened"

Sorry, that is not flying.

donna60 said...

D335

Just because a person has been enlightened does not mean that they have received "Irresistible Grace." or "Perseverance" (Miraculous grace and perseverance that cannot be breached, according to John Calvin)

Anyone can be enlightened. Peter enlightened the Jews on the day of Pentacost, by teaching them from the Psalms and warning them to save themselves from this perverse generation.


Was the Christian in Corinth enlightened? Because he had to receive church discipline before he could be restored to the body of Christ.



1 Corinthians 5

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?


What about Paul? Was he enlightened? I mean after all, God Himself blinded Paul with light on the road to Damascus. I would think that even the most unreasonable Calvinist would agree that Paul had been enlightened.

So why did Paul feel the need to write this?


Corinthians 9:26-27
26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

And you can deny it all that want. But I have had Baptist neighbors--very strong Calvinists tell me that they were "Once saved, always saved." It didn't matter what they did. They were "in like Flinn!"

Apparently God didn't bother to explain to Paul that he didn't have to bother with disciplining himself.

donna60 said...

JonnyKZJ

I am just going to give you a friendly heads-up. If you ever become a Christian, and frankly, I believe you will--

D335 is going to tell you that it had nothing whatsoever to do with your hard research and effort. Nothing to do with your alleged longing for righteousness, which he doesn't believe that you really have anyway.

It is just because you were "chosen" AKA "elected" to obey the gospel before you were even born. You had no say in the matter. God chose you over other people in your family and there is was nothing you could do about it, and nothing you can do about the family members that you care about who God didn't chose.

You can take this to the bank. I have been around Calvinist all my life, and I have heard-it-all.

donna60 said...

D335, In regards to Romans 14, Calvinism is the stumbling block in the way of people longing to obey the gospel.

And if you think I don't have an obligation to object to false doctrine, please explain to me why we are to "test all spirits." Why did Jude warn us to contend earnestly for the faith?

And I wouldn't have pointed out the error of your misspelling of the term immunoassay, "counts????" if you hadn't gone to such cruel lengths to mock Jonny, even accusing him of getting an erection while studying the bible.

What was that about?

donna60 said...

D335
"In regards, when the holy spirit came:
John 16:8-10
8 When he comes, he will PROVE TO BE IN THE WRONG ABOUT SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS AND JUDGEMENT: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;"


I don't know where on earth you are getting this translation from. I have never, ever, read a translation that stated that the Holy Spirit will be proven to be in the wrong about sin.

This is the NAS

John 16:8-10
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;

This is the KJV

John 16:8-10
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

This is the NIV

John 16:8-10
8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

donna60 said...

D335

Since I have already addressed Romans 7, you need to state what I didn't make clear. In addition Romans 7 plainly states the dual nature of the human being, as I have describe.

We have a body which lusts after the things of the flesh, and we have a spirit that thirsts after righteousness. This is what Jonny claimed to experience as well.

Romans 7

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

D335 said...

@Donna60

And I wouldn't have pointed out the error of your misspelling of the term immunoassay, "counts????" if you hadn't gone to such cruel lengths to mock Jonny, even accusing him of getting an erection while studying the bible.
What was that about?

---------------------------
1. oh wow, did you not say Quantitation? not Counting?
Sure, I misspelled 1 immonoassay which suppose to be immunoassay. You can spellcheck the rest if you wish... I will not complain.

2. You and Johny want to be buddy, that's fine. I have no objection to that.
But me and Johny?
---> the guy slander every comments I have since the beginning. He did spam every comments I had, with 4-5 pages copy pasting B.S.

Oh you want to defend him? Go ahead.
- Johny claims to drip oxytocin and able to count it, go ahead. With what? Magic radio-immunoassay?
let's see. Do you understand what it means when oxytocin is in high level? in woman your uterus will contracts rhytimically. And in man? do you think man got uterus? When do you think oxytocin is checked to be in the highest level? Erection? correct!

-Here's another JohnyKZJ comments, why don't Donna60 defends it as well:
"One of the most exciting issue was me telling him THAT WHILST ONE REGION OF MY BRAIN WAS STILL BEING QURAN ALONE, THE OTHER WANTS TO ACCEPT GOD'S TRIUNE NATURE. SO i hypothesized of how it wld look like IF I LAY UNDER AN fMRI(FUNCTIONAL magnetic resonance tomograph) N SE WHT A FIREWORK WLD GO ON IN MY BRAIN IF I ACCEPTED SAY JESUS CHRIST AS LORD WHILST UNDER THT MACHINE(which btw i find to God inspired as well made by scientists RESULTING FROM A CHRISTIAN ENVIRONMENT). Hows tht? FANTASTIC."

Go ahead Donna60. You think my way of reprimanding him to get off my comments deserve your words....
I bet you have the experience.
-----------------------------------
D335

D335 said...

@Donna60

Regarding Calvinism.
And you want to give a speech. Fine for you.

Now I ask you one think only without providing explanation of the answer at all.

You, Donna60, if you do a sin tomorrow (you can deflect if you think you are not to) will you still go to heaven?

Answer YES or NO first, then you can give your own explanation, for all I care.
---------------------------------

The verses you picked, the speech you made have not make it clear what will it takes to do so.

But I welcome your input as you accused mine of false preaching, "with lengthy experience of debating calvinists".

D335 - Yes I'm listening to you Donna60.

D335 said...

@Donna60
regarding HolySpirit to John16:8-10

ROFLMAO
For all your experience go ahead, ASK EVERY bible commentators, every Christians, everyone with a readable bible!
-who said that word in John 16
-who will be come as "he" or as the advocate,or the spirit of truth.

or I will save you the trouble and read John 16 from verse (1)ONE to (15) FIFTEEN before you open your mouth! Go ahead, use NIV, KJV, whatever!
----------------------------------

D335

D335 said...

@donna60 again, hope you are not bored of me.

"D335, In regards to Romans 14, Calvinism is the stumbling block in the way of people longing to obey the gospel."

So you say screw Romans 14? hell with the calvinists and let Donna60 say who will be in heaven? Donna60's faith is the only true faith?

Infact I'm waiting for the answer of Donna60. If you do one more sin tomorrow, will you be in heaven?

Stop spamming me with speech. Direct answer YES or NO. Then you can add your explanation afterwards.

D335

Seam_on_Us said...

@D335

My answer to your question is an emphatic NO! If I were, as a fully confessing Christian, to sin and I refuse to repent knowing full well the consequences of sin (which is death in this life and in the hereafter, ie. death in the spirit) and I were to die without repenting then no, Heaven would not be my eternal abode; the simple reason being that God cannot stand even an iota of sin, even moreso in His Heavenly and eternal abode.

Sorry I didn't provide any scriptural backing. This was an impromptu response.

God Bless.

D335 said...

@Seam_on_Us

thank you, you are honest ^^.

donna60 said...

D335,

This is your quote about Jonny

To Christians, may I remind you, -Johny DID NOT ACCEPT JESUS as Lord and Savior!.
-Johny is a QURANIST MUSLIM ONLY who pray 3 times a day! And he pray to LAS VEGAS!
-Johny drips oxytocin in his whatever and he can COUNT IT without immonoassay test!

I work in a lab, and I have never heard a the term "count it" used for a quantitation assay. That's all."

Maybe it is used all of the time, up on the floor, but you can't order a hormone "count" on a requisition. You have to order a quant.

And I would have never made a big deal about your use of the misspelling, or your use of the word "count" except that you were mocking Jonny for invoking the hormone oxytocin to describe his feelings when he read the gospel of John.

I can't count how many times I have heard the term "adrenaline rush." The person who used the term didn't have a quantitation study performed, but I never made fun of them."

What's wrong with using the term oxytocin? Oxytocin is a perfectly beautiful hormone. A spiritual breakthrough is a perfectly beautiful feeling. To a lay person, it doesn't seem out of line at all to describe spiritual breakthroughs as a oxytocin rush.

Let's give Jonny the benefit, and assume he isn't a pathologist, and he was using descriptive terminology to decribe his experience and move on. Instead you had to keep going on and on about it. Jonny had this knowledge miraculously even though he hadn't had a quant study. Jonny got an erection blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.

If Jonny is ready to accept the concept of a Godhead, what does it matter how he decribes the experience? Why does he have to be a "Christian" to form an understanding of "Christian concepts? The bible was written in standard Koine Greek, not some secret gnostic language understood only by it's initiatives.

As a matter of fact, when I was a child, the KJV, which was the only translation available back in the day, was considered to be written in third grade language. That is, any third grader could pick up a KJV and read it and understand it.--That is hardly rocket science.

Nowadays, with the NIV, nursery school children could understand it. Why can't Jonny?

donna60 said...

D335,
I'm not familiar with the term "spamming." You have accused me of it, and you have accused Jonny of it, and I am getting ready to suspect that you call anyone who disagrees with you, "spamming you."

And I have absolutely provided you with the answer of whether or not a soul will burn in hell after sinning one time.

Yes, they can burn in hell, after one sin. I even provided you with the bible verse in Acts in which Peter told Simon the Magician, to pray and p-e-r-h-a-p-s God would forgive him. God is not obligated to forgive rebellion.

That being said, I took you carefully though the passages of grace, and showed you that God offers grace to contrite sinners. The key word being contrite. Altogether I quoted five bible passages that showed what God wanted from us.

Your response has been to ignore every verse I used, state that I haven't answered the question, and then accuse me of spamming.

donna60 said...

D335

Romans 14 is not a license to sin, D335. I know my Calvinist friends would like it to be so, but that isn't the case at all.

Romans 14 addresses weak brothers who because of conscience cannot resolve that a particular act that they associate with paganism, (offering of meat to idols) is no longer a sin. They will not eat the meat, and the stronger brother, who understands the concept of meat better is not to judge him because of his weaker conscience.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the acts of rebellion that Jesus Christ calls sin. If you purposely rebel against a edict in the law of Christ, you will be condemned on the day of judgement, and Romans 14 is not going to save you.

donna60 said...

D335

"For all your experience go ahead, ASK EVERY bible commentators, every Christians, everyone with a readable bible!
-who said that word in John 16
-who will be come as "he" or as the advocate,or the spirit of truth."

Why would I ask a bible commentator or other people what John 16 is about? I learned how to read myself almost fifty years ago? I can read John 16 for myself.

John 16 doesn't state that when the Holy Spirit comes he will be proven to be wrong, as you quoted. You didn't state the translation which you quoted from.

Whatever translation that is, and I don't believe it is a real translation That is as corrupt as a translation as can be. If that translation is really out there, then the Muslims are right, and we have a corruptible bible.

Which translation is it?

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"Stop spamming!"

JK- ???

"You are trying to relate a full argument with truth, in where I only ask JUST YOU to provide a full argument in which means you MUST BACK UP your points, your views, making sure you have recheck it again BEFORE you post it, considering MISTAKES you've made before."

JK- I do that tothe best of my ability in all my posts.

"And what you did? You just rambled 4 comments of nonsense."

JK- Again thts just ur opinion. I cld say the same of u when u replied to me.

"THE ANSWER IS no, I do not get your point. My question is short and I ask a short answer.
If you do not believe in either option 1 or 2, you are welcome to choose option 3, which is TO EXPLAIN IT YOURSELF."

JK- Ok so option 3 and my explanation is the same YUVE GOT TO ACCEPT/BELEIVE IN JESUS CRUCIFICTION TRULY in order to be saved N IF DEEDS DONT FOLLOW then IT MEANS UVE NOT TRULY ACCPETED JESUS' CRUCIFICTION. Got it now?

"Since beforehand I asked "CHRISTIANS" and not muslim of Quranist alone, but I let you answer anyway. Yet you divert from the QUESTION and going 3 comments of , sorry...... total BS....
If you refrain to choose from option 1,2 or 3, then DON'T ANSWER my question. Let others do it for you. In the past, you only did spamming my arguments."

JK- Im starting to sense tht ur the one throwing out alot of BS, perhaps even deliberately, here in order to confuse me n others. I clearly replied directly n at times going in further detail to all ur pts. Go back n read it through.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"To Christians, may I remind you, -Johny DID NOT ACCEPT JESUS as Lord and Savior!.
-Johny is a QURANIST MUSLIM ONLY who pray 3 times a day! And he pray to LAS VEGAS!
-Johny drips oxytocin in his whatever and he can COUNT IT without immonoassay test!"

JK- Though the first pt is true n i can feel tht im close to. Yet ur insults show me tht u havnt accepted Jesus IN THE TRUE sense either. Dont forget the verse where Jesus said tht not everyone who calls Him Lord wld enter heaven. Ur fruits tell me n perhaps even some others whore christians already tht u lack the spirit of Christ.
Ure stupid remarks abt me praying to a loaction whilst i dont have any fixed location when i pray at all n then continueing in ur mockery. INFACT TO ME U SND SIMILAR TO A ORTHODOX MUSLIM where most of them dwell in their self righteousness.

jonnykzj said...

@Rale

Thnx for ur reply. Indeed this is exactly wht i had in my mind. ALSO i noticed tht more ppl in the list of christian converts at wiki were Orthodox/Catholic. I cldnt beleive it since ive always had a grudge against Catholicism. SO ONCE AGAIN i beleive the oly Spirit is guiding me to wht was otherwise COUNTER INTUITIVE in my perspective.
I still do have a problem with the Pope though but as far as i know even catholics r divided on this issue. Are Orthodox yet disctinct frm Catholics in tht they dont need a Pope?

D335 said...

@Donna60

Speech, speech speech, skip skip skip...
blah blah blah... oxytocin? go ahead,
Johny can use it, so can you. You may have an oxytocin rush to if you want. I use the word *count* as to measure it, you use the word *quantitation*, what's the objection? You said you were in a lab right? Go ahead ask a doctor when would be the good time to obtain a sample for oxytocin from men.



Christian concepts, from JohnyKZJ regarding OSAS.
Well, would be very stupid for me to accept an input regarding the concept of Once Saved Always Saved from a muslim who evidently DENIES Jesus death on crucifixion.

But apparently "us" the Presbyterian or your false brethren doesn't matter anyway, right?



Spamming
You are not familiar with the term "spamming?
Sure, you know that tin can full of pork meat? with the word SPAM in front?
Next terminology try "FLOODING" go ahead and try searching on the definition of natural disasters.
Or go ahead ASK YOUR KID ABOUT IT.



My Question regarding OSAS pro or contra:
To burn in hell after one sin, glad you agree with it, but that is not the question I asked you.

YES OR NO, explanation afterwards. If you decided to make your own question, go ahead. I don't have to be involved.
Your method of discussing a problem indeed throws a lot of crap to confuse the other party. Nice trick. Good Taqiya.



Romans 14 is not a license to sin?
Of course it is not, who say it was a license to sin.
But thank you again for:
1. not reading Roman14 about judging your brothers, apparently cause the one who ask you is a calvinist, sure.
2. for CONDEMNING ME TO HELL, should I bow to you oh mighty Donna60? should you now define romans 14 meanings and the rest of the bible? should donna60 faith be the only true faith while the rest go to hell?

Romans 14:10 was it all about EAT?
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.



Ahh, a missing word. "THE WORLD"
Will this one satisfy you? So now can you read WHAT DOES IT MEAN? so you can actually understand what it means even after you have 50 years to READ IT?

John16:8-9
8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me;


Now I will wait for the mighty Donna60 to judge me and strike me dead. BADA-BOOM!

D335.

D335 said...

@Seam_on_Us

I hope you still around to answer it, thank you first for actually giving me a direct answer.
I value it MOST, since you are actually reading my question rather than giving speech of B.S. You are actually interested in what I asked.

Its okay (about not bringing scripture refs), I rather have it from your perspective first. Then we'll have it from the scripture.

Now, therefor by "the act of repentance" asking forgiveness from God, ... does repentance in your perspective a human's act to obtain salvation from God?

D335

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again

BTW let me also explain to u why "Oxytocin" came first into my mind instead of other hormones. The reason is coz i rem debates/discussions with Sam Harris n Michael Shermer where this hormone was brought up SOLELY IN REGARDS TO SOCIAL BONDING n how humans beings naturally r social more with the ingroup than the outgrp etc. INFACT i did not even know tht Oxytocin was commonly injected for uterus injection at all. So as u can see tht ur conclusions regarding me here were TOTALLY FALSE.

jonnykzj said...

@Donna60 and ALL CHRISTIAN

First i'd like to thank Donna once again for coming to my defense. Indeed her view of God is Him considering our intentions whilst D335's view seems to be that He ultimately has "elects" as far as i understand. If this is true i'd have to side with Donna again.
NOW with that said I've tried to explain the concept of free will here in response to the the following article I've come across
http://robertwells.tripod.com/doesheknow.html
His conclusion that since God knows every hair and every sparrow what it does or what it would do, it follows God must also know WHAT CHOICES, NOT ONLY THE OUTCOME THEREOF, AND THIS IS CRUCIAL, WE MAKE. To show that this does not necessarily have to be so consider this.
1) For example we could DECIDE TO shoot somebody because of greed. That is a sin. Say further the person shot dies. Consider now the same scenario in which we again DECIDE TO shoot the same person. Again say he dies BUT THIS TIME LET OUR INTENTION be SELF DEFENSE. That is NOT a sin now. So as one can see whilst the outcome remains the same and God had full knowledge of that, HE DID NOT NEED TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF OUR CHOICE BEFOREHAND.
2) Another example. A person decides to get from location a to b via c. Say God's plan entails ultimately entails the person to reach b, nothing more. The same person could've also gone from a to b via x. Again then God need not know beforehand the intermediate route if it doesnt disturb or interferes in His Grand Scheme. Its like when one decides to poke ones nose, or scratch here and there. These things don't necessarily disturb God's Grand Scheme. Ofcourse AS ONE DOES THESE AND HE'D KNOW IT that is perfectly inline with free will too.
3) NOW for a third and final example. Say now a person decides to go out and kill someone by shooting BUT IT IS NOT PART OF GOD'S PLAN THAT THE PERSON IN QUESTION DIE. Again in this scenario He need not know what you're going to do beforehand BUT ONLY INTERVENE as you're about to kill the person OR even allow you to shoot but the bullet misses OR even allow the bullet to hit the person but mke sure he doesnt die. IN ALL CASES GOD NEED NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE YOUR CHOICE TO SET OUT TO KILL THE PERSON.

IF God had knowledge of our choices/intentions before as well THEN IT LOGICALLY follows that our very choices are CAUSALLY DETERMINED and this still poses a serious problem for free will.

He also gave the following example:

"One way to better visualize this is that you know that the sun is going to rise fairly early in the East tomorrow morning. But even though you know this, you will still not influence this event in any way. Or the astronomer may know exactly when Haley's comet is going to cross earth's path again, but even with this knowledge, the astronomer will still not sway or alter or have any effect on this occurrence."

My reponse- Note that neither the sun nor the comet HAS BEEN GIVEN FREE WILL. THEIR PATHWAYS ARE DETERMINISTIC AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY WE KNOW THIS. The very concept of free will IMPLIES BEING IN-DETERMINISTIC. If the sun had free will we would never know for sure what it'd do next.
ALSO note that God has e.g. deliberately depraved Himself, as Jesus, of knowing the time of the Hour. This shows tht GOD did n can refrain from knowing something ALTHOUGH HE FULLY maintains the POTENTIAL THEREOF.

ID APPRECIATE UR INPUT!

jonnykzj said...

@ALL CHRISTIANS

OMG IT LOOKS LIKE INDEED CHRISTIANS ONCE AGAIN SHARE MY UNDERSTANDING AND THE ARTICLE IS WELL SUPPORTED WITH BIBLICAL PASSAGES. YOU GOTTA READ THIS:
http://www.whenistherapture.com/omniscience.html

THIS WOULD DESTROY all criticism of atheists who understand that only causally determined things can be known of by definition and at the same time also show how now Christians could legitimately claim Islam is false since there God knows and thus has predetermined humans moral choices. IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE what these Christians claim and as i said they support it with scripture.
INDEED IT SEEMS AS GOD WANTS TO KNOW OUR CHOICES. THAT IS WHAT GIVES HIM PLEASURE and even before pointing this out i've always found the Bible saying this but as a muslim i rejected this. If He knew all in advance then we wouldn't find God having these emotions like "regret" etc as we do in the Bible. SO IN CLONCLUSION whilst God can DEFINITELY DECIDE TO KNOW all our moral choices at any time if He wanted to HE DELIBERATELY DID NOT and that makes it all logical for us to understand now why He created the world and also enable us to love Him in the true sense by our own free will.

donna60 said...

D335,

Well as you should be able to see for yourself, one word, which you left out, over and over again, can make a "world" of difference

Yes, when the Holy Spirit came, He convicted the world of sin. Here is another example of The Holy Spirit doing so.

You have been using your fair share of curse words on this post, I can't help noticing--since they've been directed at me.

Did you know that the Holy Spirit, who wrote the New Testament forbids the use of coarse language?


Colossians 3:8
But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

That being said, you have been convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit. Yesterday you might not have known that cursing was a sin. But it was..you just didn't know it--or at least I hope you have that excuse.

Today you know it.

That is what Paul felt about the law. When he read the law, he realized that he was dead, because of sin.--But even if he didn't know it, it was still a sin. So the law was good, even though it awakened him to his knowledge of sin.

Okay, now in regards to your question about if I should sin tonight, and then die tomorrow, will I go to hell. I don't know how I can be more clear. Yes! Nothing obligates God to save me from defiant, willful sin. Neither is God obligated to forgive me for sins of ignorance. Otherwise, we would be smarter to just stay ignorant of God's word. But God's word, by instructing us to what is sinful, is good, because we can repent of sins while there is still time.

Now that you know--I have clearly pointed it out in scripture to you--that you are sinning by using filthy language, you have free will to either stop it, and confess it and ask God for forgiveness, or continue it. But God doesn't owe you forgiveness. He doesn't owe you any forgiveness at all. However, because of His loving mercy, we have hope that He forgives us when we repent.

But if we die in a state of willful sin, then we are going to be eternally destroyed.

donna60 said...

Jonny,

You are okay with the oxytocin analogy. I wish I had a dollar bill for every time I have heard the term "Adrenaline Rush" or even a nickel for everytime I hear someone make fun of a man, by stating "he has too much testosterone."

For that matter, people make PMS jokes all of the time. None of it might be real science, but everyone understands the analogies.

donna60 said...

D335.

sin.
But thank you again for:
1. not reading Roman14 about judging your brothers, apparently cause the one who ask you is a calvinist, sure.
2. for CONDEMNING ME TO HELL, should I bow to you oh mighty Donna60? should you now define romans 14 meanings and the rest of the bible? should donna60 faith be the only true faith while the rest go to hell?


Uh, excuse me, but I have read Romans 14. Have you?

Romans 14 is not going to excuse you for not obeying the word of God.

And blaming me for contending earnestly for the faith isn't going to help your case either. Do you really believe that you can believe and act anyway that you want, and God won't hold you accountable? Why do you think the New Testament was written?

According to scripture, there is One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One church, which is the Body of Christ.

Just because I work really hard to make sure that I am obeying God, and I know His word, you are angry with me? You should be making every diligent effort to be just like me! You should care about what the Bible teaches! You should care about false doctrines and false teachers.

How can you claim to love God, when you not only disobey God, but you poke fun of people who do obey Him?


Ephesians 4:2-6
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

donna60 said...

JonnyKZJ

It appears that you are doing an awful lot of studying, and I feel a little bold, but would you visit these three websites, and review some of their material, before you make any strong conclusions about the rapture and such things?

Apologetics Press
Christian Courier
Jim McGuiggan

Just as additional sources of study material. Thank you!

D335 said...

@Donna60

well, go ahead show me a curse word that I use on you. Go ahead, do that and I will not use the word on you ever again!

And you spoke of my faith to be false doctrine, heresy, the most sin-sick congregations on the earth, filthy practice, toilet paper, taint ???

What do you have to say Donna60? You did mentioned Col 3:8
----------------------------------

My question of another sin and hell the rabbit goes to.

Do you consider repentance a human act for trying to obtain salvation?
Remember, you were saved, you sin once more, and then boom salvation is lost. Will that be repaired with "repentance"?

---------------------------------

Romans 14 stated clearly. Was it all about EAT?

"10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat."

----------------------------------

Ephesians 4:2-6
"2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Where is the humility, the patience, the showing tolerance of accusing me, false doctrine, mentioning calvinism as a taint?


D335- Go ahead, I'm listening.

D335 said...

@Donna60
--------------------------------
and I HOPE EVERY CHRISTIANS READ THIS!
--------------------------------

This is a new concept you must realize, Donna60!

By calling a Calvinist a false doctrine, therefore you stand on your own, Donna60.
You make your own faith to be the true faith not only disregarding, but neglecting Romans 14. As well as the rest of your Christians fellows.

WHY?
because you just considered every faith as false doctrine as you have indicated.
-Islam (Sunni, Shia, Ahmadiyah), Bahai, Judaism, Buddhism, Hindu, Shinto, and apparently the rest of the world.

So, tell me, what name of your Christian faith? the only true Christian faith of yours?

If you believe your obligation to call me false doctrine, that my faith rots in hell, again disregarding and neglecting Romans 14, ... in what concept you declared yourself to JUDGE your fellow Christians?

I DO NOT judge fellow Christians. I will NOT call my fellow Christians as false doctrines!

Indeed, I use the shibboleth of Nicean Creed and 1 John 4:1-3.

Now, who do I see as fellow Christians.
Those coptic in egypt? YES
Those Christians in Japan, Pakistan, US? Yes.
Howbout Orthodox Christians? Yes. Howbout Lutherans? Yes
Howbout Arminians? Yes
Howbout the Catholics? YES, my fellow Christians even tho I never agree with the pope for thousand of years we know as Dark Ages!.

How do I know they are my fellow Christians?

Let's fix our eyes in this passage:

1 John 4:1-3
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Howbout those who refused acknowledging it? I will still consider them brothers, only not a Christian.
---------------------------------
Now, there rise a question,...
is Later Day Saints or the Mormons a fellow Christian?
well go ahead, see if Mormons recognize 1 John 4:1-5 or the Nicean Creed.
Howbout Jehovah? see if they agreed with the "shibboleth".
---------------------------------
You may have been mad at me, but I assure you, I don't. Donna 60.
Tho my tone might have been harsh, tho I sound like someone reprimanding others with Romans 14,...

... I'm in fact not being forced by Matthew 5:43-44 but on my own term that I love you as a fellow Christian. Therefor no Christians stand on their own.

D335
----------------------------------
NB: I welcome everyone's input. I'm human and made mistakes before and probably make some more tomorrow. Go ahead.

donna60 said...

D335,
These are your quotes and I put parenthesis around your vulgar words.

"value it MOST, since you are actually reading my question rather than giving speech of (B.S.) You are actually interested in what I asked."

So you say (screw) Romans 14? (hell) with the calvinists and let Donna60 say who will be in heaven? Donna60's faith is the only true faith?

Don't just not say them to me. Don't say these words.

In regards to the Presbyterians treating the word of God like toilet paper, I might have spoken too quickly if you are a Presbyterian of America.

On the other hand, the Presbyterian Church USA should know that the Presbyterians are on the leading edge of treating the word of God like toilet paper. They were one of the first churches to allow women to be elders and given the pulpit. This directly flies against NT commandments.

So does homosexuality. Now the Presbyterian church has openly gay church leaders. The door was opened for Satan centuries ago, and the word of God was more than cast aside.

If you think that I am rough on false teachers, you might really dislike Peter, Paul and Jude.


2 Peter 2:21-22
21 It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. 22 They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.”[a] And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

Jude
"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[d] 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy


Titus 1:9-13
9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

donna60 said...

D335,

"My question of another sin and hell the rabbit goes to.

Do you consider repentance a human act for trying to obtain salvation?
Remember, you were saved, you sin once more, and then boom salvation is lost. Will that be repaired with "repentance"?


--(I haven't the foggiest notion what rabbit you are referring to.)




Yes repentance is a human act. What is more, we are commanded to perform it. The purpose of church discipline is to produce repentance in the sinner, before he is eternally damned.


2 Corinthians 7:8-11
8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.


Corinthians 2:5-8
5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him.

D335 said...

value it MOST, since you are actually reading my question rather than giving speech of (B.S.) You are actually interested in what I asked."

---> that is not for you, but sure, IF YOU CONSIDER B.S. as a "curse word" I will refrain that use.

So you say (screw) Romans 14? (hell) with the calvinists and let Donna60 say who will be in heaven? Donna60's faith is the only true faith?

---> you understand clear what "screw" in the context and "hell" in the context. If you want me not to use that again as in "neglecting" and "disregarding" okay,... I will make sure not to use that again just for you.

PAY ATTENTION CAREFULLY that I did not use screw as in "screw you" as in "intercourse" suggestive word.
PAY ATTENTION CAREFULLY that "hell" in the context is not "hell with you" but disregard /throw away.
--------------------------------

Amazing isn't it? I'm not even familiar with the "screw" word as curse, until I must asked an english speaking with american accent speaker, pointing to me that curse word must be WITHIN THE CONTEXT!

His example not mine, i.e. "your mother accepts all credits payment for use".
Is there a curse word? Is the meaning literally pointing to a prostitute?

English is not even my first language! Sure, let me refrain that for you Donna60.
---------------------------------
D335

donna60 said...

D335,

The concept of spiritual purity is new to you? Wow! All I can say is Wow!

I am a Christian. I was so called by God in the bible--Christian. That is the only name I go by. My faith is found in the scriptures, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and written down by the apostles and other men of God, including James and Jude the half-brothers of Jesus.

You sincerely want to believe that any religion that recognized Jesus is recognized in heaven. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but scriptures just don't lead to that hope.

Not only has false doctrines divided the church, they also destroyed churches. Why else would Paul have felt the need to warn the elders of Ephesus that false teaching would come from them?

The very teaching of "apostolic succession was first warned against by Paul in Acts 20


Acts 20:28-30
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

Why did every single apostle give us warning in the letters they left behind to avoid false teachings?

Why did Paul state that there was only one church? That there was only one faith? Why did Jesus plead for church unity and spiritual purity? Why do you think that is?

You are getting all hot and bothered here, but I want you to know, that it isn't me that you are fuming at. You are furious at God, because He is the One who left these edicts behind.

donna60 said...

D335,

Just as another aside--have you thought about how much easier it would to convert the world to Jesus if the church was united in scriptural purity?

I've actually heard David have to say in Q&A parts of debates that he wasn't a calvinist, because that is a huge detraction from the gospel.

Seam_on_Us said...

Ok, first and foremost, I have to point out that the animosity brewing in recent comments between posters is rather unsettling. It is not befitting that the house should be attacked from the inside for such a house would fall. We should try, as Christians (i.e., followers of Christ as opposed to fans of Christ), to refrain from insulting anyone's opinion on anything, so that through patient discourse and gentle exhortation we all might come to the single truth of our Lord Jesus Christ.

@ D335

'Now, therefor by "the act of repentance" asking forgiveness from God, ... does repentance in your perspective a human's act to obtain salvation from God?'

I'm not quite sure I get your question but I'll answer it as best as I can.

Quick answer: Yes.

Explanation:
One of the unique aspects of Jesus' Sacrifice on the cross was that He went to suffering as 'a lamb, without uttering a single word'. Jesus willingly gave His life for the whole world (as is declared in the first chapter of John). He said that no one takes His life from Him but that He gives it by His own will. And it is, therefore, left to the world to willingly come unto Him for salvation. No one will be forced to save themselves. Since the sacrifice was done without coercion but willingly, it is only befitting that accepting that salvation should be without coercion.

Now, we all knoe of the controversy surrounding the concept of free will. That would be an entirely lengthy discussion altogether. But as Christians it is a key tennet of belief in the Righteousness of God (like I said it's a long story, which I wouldn't mind sharing some other time). Just as Jesus surrendered His Will to the Father ("...but Your Will be done Father, not mine") we as Christians are to willingly submit to the Will of God and the Lord enjoins us to not let the night pass on an argument, which IMO means that if we anger God we are to quickly reconcile before it is too late. And death is the latest anyone can be to receive salvation.

So, yes, it is eventually the choice and act of the human that reconciles him with God.

Forgive me once more, I am no good with referencing.

God Bless.

Rale said...

@jonnykzj

We Orthodox indeed don't have a pope in the way of the Catholic Church.
The Orthodox Church is composed of autocephalous local churches. The churches are ruled independently, but agree fully on all dogmatic issues.
The catholic pope is considered to be the head of the Church and the vicar of the Son of God (Vicarius filii Dei). This is something that we cannot accept since only Christ is the head of the Church. In Ancient times, there were five patriarchates (pentarchy), and Rome was one of them. The jusrisdiction of the pope was limited only to the west. He was nevertheless the first in honor, primus inter pares. But that was only a primacy of honor, and not of power or jurisdiction.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

I KNEW IT(THOUGH i still give myself a SMALL probability of being wrong as always no matter how sure i am). I felt the Holy Spirit inside of me informing me that Calvinism is a heresy and even cld be called a Satanic cult of Christianity. IT MAKES CHRISTIANITY AND GOD DULL SIMILAR AS ISLAM DOES, with the only difference that they use Jesus as a cover. They beleive in God having selected "elects" beforehand, some or perhaps all beleive that wealth automaztically means God is pleased with u n at the same time that Jesus came to save. But if u read it together it is actually a mockery n turns the whole crucifiction into a MERE STAGE SHOW with no real value. Here look what i found about Calvanism:
http://amillennialist.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/calvin-a-spiritual-successor-to-muhammad/
http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/1019/Broken-Tulips-Geert-Wilders-on-Trial.aspx
HOW IRONIC D335 calling me a corrupt Muslim whilst this Cavnism CULT gets its theology straight from the very Muslims he criticizes. IT'S LIKE SEEING SATAN IN ACTION RIGHT INFRONT OF ME!

donna60 said...

Jonny,

Calvinism didn't come from Islam. John Calvin got his doctrine straight from Augustine, who received it straight out of the mouths of the gnostics.

I have heard Calvinists defend total depravity by bringing up the fact that babies cry when they want something.

I think even John Calvin himself made that argument.

donna60 said...

D335,

I allow that you didn't realize that these were vulgar words. I know I frequently hear Muslim women immigrants use vulgar language, and it always seems so disconnected that these ugly words are coming out of the mouths of these beautiful women. I understand now that they probably don't know what these words mean.

But your friend is trying to make you feel better by stating that these words were a matter of context.

That bad word, for intercourse means what it is. You used it the exact same way someone would use the F word, and it means the same thing.

Hell is a place, not a verb. More to the point it is a place of dread, that makes godly people fearful. Using it as a substitute for the verb "Throw away" is vulgar. And I think enough said for the term B.S.

You should not use these words now that you know what they mean. It is scarcely helping your cause, to present yourself as a man of God with these words coming out of your mouth.

donna60 said...

Jonny,

Since you have communicated with me privately, you should be used to the fact that I have many disagreements with some terms that are used.

Remember that I believe that you were born perfect and upright, and longing for righteousness. I know that since then you have disappointed yourself and your Creator, just like I have, because all of us have sinned, but you still have a longing for righteousness in spite of it all.

That being said, I don't believe it is the Holy Spirit inside of you that is allowing you to discern good doctrine from false doctrine. It is you, and the reasoning abilities that God gave to you.

Remember that you were given free-will and your obedience to the gospel is going to be based entirely on a free will response to your Savior, and mine.

For you to believe that the Holy Spirit is inside you telling you what to believe, robs you of free-will. I don't believe this is so, and I don't believe it is biblically sound.

I just want to nudge you a little bit to engage your bright mind and your loving heart into the body of Christ, which is His church, the kingdom of God.

D335 said...

@Donna60

and therefore, you stand on your own. For many views may differ, but your condemnation brought everything to stand by yourself.
1. You believe that you are against Islam (in this forum which is www.answeringmuslims.com)
2. You believe that you are against Calvinism, therefor Presbyterians.
3. Howbout the rest of the religions? I suppose you are against the rest of them to.

Which leaves, your own faith to speak as the only true faith that gets you to heaven.

But surely you understand clearly which part of standing alone as I said previously.
----------------------------------
If you mention David Wood FAQ which I found nothing condemning Calvinism, unless David Wood clearly mentioned that no Presbyterians are allowed to join this forum, you're making the decision on yourself.

David has been entirely nice, he wasn't judgmental person such as you Donna60.
----------------------------------
Our conversation ends here, with your clear view, condemning Calvinism.

D335

D335 said...

@JohnyKZJ

JK - HOW IRONIC D335 calling me a corrupt Muslim whilst this Cavnism CULT gets its theology straight from the very Muslims he criticizes. IT'S LIKE SEEING SATAN IN ACTION RIGHT INFRONT OF ME!

D335 - Did I call you a "corrupt" muslim? POINT IT TO ME!

I did however refer to your OWN facts that you are a Quran only muslim and pray 3 times a day. Was I wrong? Is that a muslim?

----------------------------------

You were spamming heavily on every comments I made. And you did not see who yourself to be!.
Surely now, taking the word of Donna60, you refer to Calvinism as a false doctrine, go ahead.
Would be very funny to read the title of the blog site, which is "answering-muslims".

For once, can I have a comment without you spamming on it? Answering is okay, spamming is not.

D335.

D335 said...

@Seam_on_us

thank you for the careful answer.

The polemic is not good indeed. However what must happen, must happen. So our goals are united in Christ.

Long ago the council of Nicene seen this before, (calvinism was just later addition in 17th cent.) and state a profession of faith. It was a creed that unites many Christian views. Apparently the understanding of why such a creed are needed, elude some people. Sigh.

Regarding such a polemic, thank you for not judging and not condemning other Christians with different view as yourself.
--------------------------------

Regarding the repentance, however in Presbyterian theology, mentioned clearly that God is the only one to save man. For I will try, yet you heard this before, how can a blind man leads himself on the right path, or leading other blinds to the same path.
God sees us and He reached out for us.

Repentance is necessary, for it is honoring God's gift, but NOT to buy it. For He who will let us to enter his house, why are we acting like fools in the presence of the Lord?

My personal view derived from the Presbyterian theology, do understand why Calvinists are accused of proclaiming "license to sin". But it came not from us.
License to sin is to bite the hand that feeds you.
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the "sinful nature" (Rom 8:3)
This is a clear cut verse that shows I'm a repeat offender, I am a repeat sinner. None of you are better. We were fortunate that God saved us! and we welcome the holy spirit to direct us to the path of righteous!

Regarding why calvinists see that repentance as an honor to God but not to buy salvation, is because:
Our Efforts, you can double it, triple it or quadruple it, yet the price is way too high.
IF SUPPOSE one can obtain a salvation by his own effort, therefore doing more will grant more providence in the eyes of the Lord? Doesn't happen that way. No special class in heaven.

Alas, this is my view. In such no way I am asking you to receive it nor to judge it. This is for you to see where I stand and what I stand for. And that's why I'm grateful to you.

D335.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

2D335 - Did I call you a "corrupt" muslim? POINT IT TO ME!2

JK- I meant it in the sense of u calling Muslims in general corrupted via them being hyporites i.e. they hide wht they know wld sound utterly disgusting to an objective mind. And that i understood you included me in this category.


"I did however refer to your OWN facts that you are a Quran only muslim and pray 3 times a day. Was I wrong? Is that a muslim?"

JK- It is not "muslim" by the majority "scholars" standard. that i give you. And as i also pointed out iv started to doubt greatly the Quran as being Divinely inspired. Infact a region/person in my brain has already accepted Christ as Lord and Savior.

"You were spamming heavily on every comments I made. And you did not see who yourself to be!."

JK- I was only trying to refute some or more of the arguments that you made.

"Surely now, taking the word of Donna60, you refer to Calvinism as a false doctrine, go ahead.
Would be very funny to read the title of the blog site, which is "answering-muslims"."

JK- If someone finds somethng wrong, even a christian finding a certain grp of ppl labelling themselves christians, as heretics, they shld discuss this. even if the site is supposed to be meant mainly for targetting another grp. For example even you wldnt just let Jehovas Witness call themslves christians here n join in completely with them to attack islam without first making clear tht u dont consider them christians, wld u?

"For once, can I have a comment without you spamming on it? Answering is okay, spamming is not.

D335."

JK- HOW do u tell the difference btw "spamming" and "commenting"? Wht exactly r ur criteria for such? Coz for me spamming wld be if i posted say commercials or identical posts over n over which i didnt.

D335 said...

@JohnyKZJ

Since you are smart enough to notice that Donna indeed condemned heresy on Calvinism...

Do you not realize other Calvinists in this forum? Specifically some of those who provide contents for all of us?

You don't??? SERIOUSLY???
Do not make me laugh at you. You popped in without knowing anything didn't you? Do some research first!

Donna hates Calvinists, but that's her. It's her own right to do so. But you are sincerely not knowing anything about Calvinism, AT ALL!

I'm not even sure you understand Christianity, but read Romans 14 for yourself. Some Christians may not agree with other Christian's view, but judging it as heresy or even condemning it is a very amateur mistake.

----------------------------------
You spoke of me being a hypocrite, of what? Did I hide something? I clearly proclaimed myself as a Presbyterian.

I didn't slap your comments that much since I want you to discover your mistakes by yourself. Because of your naive trait, you probably young, same as everyone. Sure, you need ammunition from someone like Donna. So go ahead and find out!. Grow up for a bit.

D335

donna60 said...

jonny

Yes please read Romans 14 for yourself.

Decide for yourself whether Romans 14 is about Christians not judging each other in matters of conscience, such as certain foods to avoid, or certain days to regard, which is what I am stating, or whether it is discussing doctrinal issues which the apostles spoke authoratively on.

D335, to save his man-made Calvinist doctrine, is using Romans 14 to say that even though Calvinism violates scriptural teachings, I don't have a right to call it heresy. But Romans 14 says nothing about not judging false teachers at all.

--On the other hand, there are plenty of bible passages that tell Christians how to deal with false teachers.

Compare what D335 is saying about me accusing Calvinism of heresy, with what Jesus says about Calvinism.


Matthew 15:8-9

8 ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”

D335 said...

@anyone, that is not Donna :P, since every words I use seems to be a curse word to her. And I'm not to curse on her right?

heh heh.

was Roman 14 about eating, servant-master, one day more sacred than the other,
OR
do I need to save my "man made" Calvinism as some condemned, by pointing specifically about judging others?

Romans 14 NIV
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

I recall those who condemned Calvinism as heresy, requested an opinion of a heretic Calvinist. Would that be hypocrite? only God knows, not my problem to deal with it. I don't want to obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

Throwing scriptures, play of words, over-powering pride and spreading prejudice that is counter productive to what Christianity is as Jesus the head of the church.

Jesus claims those who believe in Him and follow His words, retain salvation. You can call religion, branches, denominations, or condemned it as a cult, however Jesus is the judge of that.

One man's cult is another's religion as one man's hero is an enemy unto others.

Go ahead, let the scripture provide better information rather than to hear it from someone else.

D335