Saturday, October 29, 2011

Who Killed Muhammad?

Through the centuries, thousands of people have claimed to be prophets. Only one, however, rested his claims on the fact that his aorta hadn't been cut. Ironically, as this man lay dying, he confessed that he could feel his aorta being severed. (Click here for a much shorter version of the argument.)



For those who want to keep track of the Muslim sources related to this issue, here they are. (Note: I didn't use all of these in the video. Note also: I typed these in by hand, so let me know if you spot any typos.)

I. QUR'AN TRANSLATIONS

Qur’an 69:44-46—And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), and then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta). (Hilali-Khan)

Qur’an 69:44-46—And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us, We assuredly had taken him by the right hand and then severed his life-artery. (Pickthall)

Qur’an 69:44-46—Had he invented lies concerning Us, We would have seized him by the right hand and severed his heart’s vein. (Dawood)

Qur’an 69:44-46—And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings, We would certainly have seized him by the right hand, then We would certainly have cut off his aorta. (Shakir)

II. MUSLIM COMMENTARIES

Tafsir Ibn Abbas on Qur’an 69:44-46—(And if he had invented) and had Muhammad invented (false sayings concerning Us) lies against Us and attributed to Us that which We did not say, (We assuredly had taken him) We assuredly had taken revenge against him (by the right hand) by means of truth and proofs; it is also said this means: We assuredly had vehemently taken him. (And then severed his life artery) the life artery of Muhammad (pbuh).

Tafsir Jalalayn on Qur’an 69:44-46—And had he, namely, the Prophet (s), fabricated any lies against Us, by communicating from Us that which We have not said, We would have assuredly seized him, We would have exacted vengeance [against him], as punishment, by the Right Hand, by [Our] strength and power; then We would have assuredly severed his life-artery, the aorta of the heart, a vein that connects with it, and which if severed results in that person’s death.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Qur’an 69:46—(And then We certainly would have cut off Al-Watin from him,) Ibn ‘Abbas said, “It (Al-Watin) refers to the artery of the heart, and it is the vein that is attached to the heart.” This has also been said by ‘Ikrimah, Sa’id bin Jubayr, Al-Hakim, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak, Muslim Al-Batin and Abu Sakhr Humayd bin Ziyad.

III. HADITH REFERENCES

Sahih al-Bukhari 2588—Aisha said, “When the Prophet became sick and his condition became serious, he requested his wives to allow him to be treated in my house, and they allowed him. He came out leaning on two men while his feet were dragging on the ground.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 2617—A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and was asked, “Shall we kill her?” He said, “No.” Anas added: “I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah’s Messenger.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 2797—The Prophet said, . . . “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is! I would love to be martyred in Allah’s Cause and then come back to life and then get martyred, and then come back to life again and then get martyred and then come back to life again and then get martyred.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 4428—The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O Aishah! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.”

Sahih Muslim 5430—A Jewess came to Allah’s Messenger with poisoned mutton and he took of what had been brought to him. (When the effects of this poison were felt by him) he called for her and asked her about that, whereupon she said: I had determined to kill you. Thereupon he said: Allah will never give you the power to do it.

Sunan Abu Dawud 4498—A Jewess presented [Muhammad] at Khaibar a roasted sheep which she had poisoned. The Apostle of Allah ate of it and the people also ate. He then said: Lift your hands (from eating), for it has informed me that it is poisoned. Bishr b. al-Bara b. Ma’rur al-Ansari died. So he (the Prophet) sent for the Jewess (and said to her): What motivated you to do the work you have done? She said: If you were a prophet, it would not harm you; but if you were a king, I would rid the people of you. The Apostle of Allah then ordered regarding her and she was killed. He then said about the pain of which he died: I continued to feel pain from the morsel which I had eaten at Khaibar. This is the time when it has cut off my aorta.

Sunan Abu Dawud 4449—Umm Bishr said to the Prophet during the sickness of which he died: What do you think about your illness, Apostle of Allah? I do not think about the illness of my son except the poisoned sheep of which he had eaten with you at Khaibar. The Prophet said: And I do not think about my illness except that. This is the time when it cut off my aorta.

Sunan Ibn Majah 1622—Aishah said: “I never saw anyone suffer more pain than the Messenger of Allah.”

IV. SIRA REFERENCES

Ibn Ishaq, p. 516—When the apostle had rested, Zaynab d. al-Harith, the wife of Sallam b. Mishkam prepared for him a roast lamb, having first inquired what joint he preferred. When she learned that it was the shoulder she put a lot of poison in it and poisoned the whole lamb. Then she brought it in and placed it before him. He took hold of the shoulder and chewed a morsel of it, but he did not swallow it. Bishr b. al-Bara b. Ma’rur who was with him took some of it as the apostle had done, but he swallowed it, while the apostle spat it out, saying, ‘This bone tells me that it is poisoned.’ Then he called for the woman and she confessed, and when he asked her what had induced her to do this she answered: ‘You know what you have done to my people. I said to myself, If he is a king I shall ease myself of him and if he is a prophet he will be informed (of what I have done).’ So the apostle let her off. Bishr died from what he had eaten.

Ibn Ishaq, p. 516—Marwan b. Uthman b. Abu Sa’id b. al-Mu’alla told me: The apostle had said in his illness of which he was to die when Umm Bishr d. al-Bara came to visit him, ‘O Umm Bishr, this is the time in which I feel a deadly pain from what I ate with your brother at Khaybar.’

At-Tabari, Volume 8, p. 124—The Messenger of God said during the illness from which he died—the mother of Bishr b. al-Bara had come in to visit him—“Umm Bishr, at this very moment I feel my aorta being severed because of the food I ate with your son at Khaybar.”

Ibn Sa’d, Volume 2, pp. 251-252—When the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, conquered Khaybar and he had peace of mind, Zaynab Bint al-Harith, the brother of Marhab, who was the spouse of Sallam Ibn Mishkam, inquired: Which part of the goat is liked by Muhammad? They said: The foreleg. Then she slaughtered one from her goats and roasted it (the meat). Then she wanted a poison which could not fail. The Jews discussed about poisons and became united on one poison. She poisoned the she-goat putting more poison on the forelegs, and shoulder. When the sun had set and the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, returned after leading the people in Maghrib (sun-set) prayers, she sat by his feet. He asked her about her. She said: O Abu al-Qasim! Here is a present which I wish to offer to you. The Prophet, may Allah bless him, ordered it to be taken. It was served to him and to his Companions who were present and among those who were present was Bishr Ibn al-Bara Ibn Ma’rur. Then the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, said: Come closer and have night meal. The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, took the foreleg, a piece of which he put into his mouth. Bishr Ibn al-Bara took another bone and put it into his mouth. When the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, ate one morsel of it Bishr ate his and other people also ate from it. Then the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, said: Hold back your hands! Because this foreleg; and according to another version, the shoulder of the goat, has informed me that it is poisoned. Thereupon Bishr said: By Him Who hath made you great! I discovered it from the morsel I took. Nothing prevented me from emitting it out, but the idea that I did not like to make your food unrelishing. When you had eaten what was in your mouth, I did not like to save my life after yours, and I also thought you would not have eaten it if there was something wrong. Bishr did not rise from his seat but his color changed to that of taylsan (a green cloth). For a year the pain did not permit him to change his sides but with the help of others and then he expired. According to another version, he died before leaving his seat. He (Ibn Sa’d) said: A peace of it was dropped before a dog who ate it and died (instantaneously) without being able to move its foreleg. The Apostle of Allah sent for Zaynab Bint al-Harith and said to her: What induced you to do what you have done? She replied: You have done to my people what you have done. You have killed my father, my uncle, and my husband, so I said to myself. If you are a prophet, the foreleg will inform you; and others have said: If you are a king we will get rid of you. The Jewess returned as she had come. He (Ibn Sa’d) said: The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, handed her over to the heirs of Bishr Ibn al-Bara who put her to death.

For further study on this topic, see the following articles:

Sam Shamoun, "How Allah Killed His Prophet"
Silas, "The Death of Muhammad"

257 comments:

1 – 200 of 257   Newer›   Newest»
Radical Moderate said...

Bashir trusted Mohamed and he ate it, and he DIED.

See that Muslims thats what you get when you trust Mohamed you DIE.

Jabari said...

Brilliant video David!!!!! I'll be spreading this to all the Muslims I know :).

Fisher said...

Poetic justice indeed. The only way I can possibly see Muslims getting past this argumentation is by denying all the hadith and sira sources that you just quoted. But if they do that, then there goes orthodox Sunnism as a whole.

Deleting said...

sadder still, kim and osama and all the other muslims will continue to live in the rotten moldy land of denial.

hugh watt said...

Larry the lamb killed Muhammad. Wow!!!

simple_truth said...

That was a good analysis, David. I intently listened to the video and will listen to it again to let it sink in more. I don't see any way to rebut the sources or the information you gave. I wonder what angle that Muslims will make in an attempt to dismiss this video. I am sure that they will find a way, if by no other means than to discredit you by attacking your person and your character. That is probably all that they will have left to object.

I don't think that you need a shorter version in terms of information. For the sake of silencing Muslims from criticizing the comedic mini clips, you may want to take them out in the shorter version. Let's leave no room for them to object.

Peter said...

The false prophet Mohammad's reign of terror was ended by a Lamb of God.

The Purple Marquise said...

Brilliant as usual David! And with a healthy dose of humor! Thank you!

alkitab said...

Excellent video!! Bravo
Muslims today are just like Bashir trusting a false prophet blindly.

alkitab said...

Peter - The false prophet Mohammad's reign of terror was ended by a Lamb of God. ha ha ha I like this one.

The Purple Marquise said...

@simple_truth: You said: " I don't see any way to rebut the sources or the information you gave. I wonder what angle that Muslims will make in an attempt to dismiss this video. "

Do you really think the Muslims will even try to rebut anything that David showed in this great video?? No my friend! They will ignore EVERYTHING and will just go straight to attack the doctrine of Trinity! As if that in anyway effects any of the things that David showed!

That's how they are! As if they know very well that the game is over for Islam and they are drowning but they are not going to drown alone!! No, no, no!!! They will try their very best to pull you down with them to the abyss! Kind of like intellectual suicide bombing! But let them try! They have no chance! The Truth can stand their pathetic mud throwing and eventually they WILL go down alone !

Deleting said...

Let's call it for what it is....Allah is a sock puppet. A seventh century violent satanic sock puppet.

However, YHWH made his power known, his love known, his will known through his son Jesus Christ.
But sadly the muslims who cling to the sock puppet and not the cross will be the ones swept up in YHWH's wrath.

Radical Moderate said...

@David and everyone else. I'm reading a book on Kindle that I think you all will enjoy. Its a fast plesent read. A intro if you will to After Mohamed the Sunni Shia Split.

A few intersting highlights

Uthman the "Rightly Guided Caliph" who compiled the Authroized version of the Quran used today was so hated by his fellow Muslims that he was stoned unconcious while leading the Friday Prayers at the Mosque in Medina.

After he was murdered by Muslslims in the rebelion, he was not burried in a Muslim cementary but instead converted to Judiasm after his death when he was burried in a Jewish Cemetary.

Ever wonder where the Arabic Islamic tradition of holding up shoes or hitting people with with shoes and sandles came from.

Well after Uthman would not publicaly flog his own half brother for intoxication.

AIssa at the Mosque of Medina during friday prayers held up a sandle that belonged to Mohamed and shouted at Uthman "See how this the prophets own sandal, has not yet even fallen apart?" This is how quickly you have forgotten the Sunna, his practice!"

With that "the whole mosque erupted in condemnation of the Caliph, people took off their sandals and brandished them in AIsha's support."

In contrast Omar a good Muslim had his own son publicaly flogged to death for public intoxication.

Also Othman killed Mohameds Grandson, which also hastend the death of Mohameds daughter Fatima.

Anyway The book is called After the Prophet, The Epic story of the Shia-Sunni Split in Islam.
by Lesley Hazleton.

You can get it on Kindle here

Enjoy!!!!

Bartimaeus said...

Allahu Akbar

Allah killed Mohammed

Osama you prophet has been destroyed! How can you defend him. O yes you know you can't defend Mohammed that is why you lied and chickened out of the debate.

By the way reject Mohammed before Allah severs your aorta

Allahu Akbar
Camel Urine anyone

PS

this is most devestaing refutation proving Mohammed was not a prophet indeed he was a fale prophet and fell under the judgemetn of God,

Praise the Lord.

C said...

Soooo The Bible says Muhammad is a false prophet according to the OT and NT, and he is a false prophet according to the Quran and the Hadeeth.. I say we have a consensus!!! Islam is the biggest religious quackery and fraud in history and I am a EX EX EX Muslim who wasted a decade in this cult,so please do not tell me I have "misunderstood" Islam.

Hazakim1 said...

Wow. Speechless.

Radical Moderate said...

@C

You wrote...

"Soooo The Bible says Muhammad is a false prophet according to the OT and NT, and he is a false prophet according to the Quran and the Hadeeth.."

He's not even a messenger according to the Allah and the Quran.

Q72:25-28

"Say, "I do not know if what you are promised is near or if my Lord will grant for it a [long] period.

[He is] Knower of the unseen, and He does not disclose His [knowledge of the] unseen to anyone

Except whom He has approved of messengers, and indeed, He sends before each messenger and behind him observers

That he may know that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord; and He has encompassed whatever is with them and has enumerated all things in number."

kiwimac said...

Astounding! Muslims- God is not going to blame you for being born into Islam and knowing only the Quran and Muhammad. But God will hold you accountable for not having an open mind and being prepared to question your faith.
John 14:6,Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

CL Edwards said...

I do not think it was a issue of Muhammad not being smart enough to turn down the Jewish woman's offer, I think it was a issue of arrogance. For one I believe he really believed he was a prophet, and that the whole world was going to bow down to him in submission. He saw this woman's offers as her act of submission, in his eyes she was being a good little ideal dhimmi. You can see it today Muslim's have serious delusions of grandeur. Dar ul Islam except for maybe the UAE and parts of Saudi Arabia is a desolated underdeveloped third world waste land, yet Muslim's still think they have a manifest destiny to conquer the world and re-live their imaginary glorious Islamic golden age. No connection with reality, no critical thinking, only Allah and His messenger said. But what do you expect form a people who repeat the same words 17 times a day ever day? When I was Muslim in the Salafi community, no exaggeration.. in ever Salafi mosque and community everywhere in the wold you had the same exact complaints, issues and problems. Yet the Imam's and leaders all attempted to keep all this under the rug..things like Niqabi "modest" women being passed around and "married" by all the brothers, Imam's being married and divorced 20 times, some of the big named one's having wives on every continent. But if you dare to mention these things in public or suggest something should be done about it, you are a innovator, a deviant, trouble maker etc.

Sam said...

BTW, here is an article on this very subject, plus a lot more info on related issues, in case anyone wants to read it: http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/killed.html

Radical Moderate said...

C.L. Edwards

You wrote...

"I do not think it was a issue of Muhammad not being smart enough to turn down the Jewish woman's offer, I think it was a issue of arrogance. For one I believe he really believed he was a prophet, and that the whole world was going to bow down to him in submission."

I think, that the story is made up. Mohamed died of old age probobly of a stroke or heart attack. It wold be interesting for maybe Nabeel to DX him on the symptoms that we know.

However be that as it may he did not die a martyr. So this was a problem for later Muslims who were dying as martyrs. So they had to come up with a way to say that Mohamed died a martyr.

Now maybe a jewish woman did try to posion him and he had a taste tester named Bashir and Bashir died of the poison.

Either way the story was exagerated "Talking Sheep Bone" etc...

So I dont believe that Mohamed ate anything. What more then likley happend is stated above Mohameds taste tester died of posion by a jew and Muslim used this to say that Mohamed died a martyrs death becasue he ws pointed years ealier.

simple_truth said...

kiwimac said...

"Astounding! Muslims- God is not going to blame you for being born into Islam and knowing only the Quran and Muhammad. But God will hold you accountable for not having an open mind and being prepared to question your faith.
John 14:6,Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." "

Absolutely! Ironically, Islam calls into question anyone who thinks for themselves and adopts different interpretations than what the established authorities do. Islam suppresses critical thinking.

Gregory said...

Good job David. Dam good job! Too bad your video won't be used in the mosques this Friday......
It is weird that no muslims actually read their holy books.
Because their imams and mullahs tell them not to. I bet that their imams and mullahs don't study their holy books either.
Like they are Lemmings. "Well, my whole family has gone to hell. I might as well too."
Misery DOES love company.

Jabari said...

@Radical Moderate

I don't think the story was made up. This story about Muhammad dying by poisoning via a Jewish woman is very humiliating and Muslims wouldn't make this up unless it was true.

Radical Moderate said...

Jabari

So you belive the bones of the sheep spoke to Mohamed and told him it was posiend

Jabari said...

@Radical Moderate:
As for the bone of sheep spoke to him, I think Muhammad was making that up. But other than that, I think that Muhammad's death by poison occurred in history.

Hazakim1 said...

Radical...the story doesnt authenticate that the bone spoke to Muhammad.....it only records that Muhammad CLAIMED the bone spoke to him (totally in keeping with something a false prophet would say). If a Mormon historian states that Joseph Smith claimed to have recieved some sort of revelation (recording the words of Joseph Smith), I have no reason to doubt that he said it. Why would you argue that Muhammad would not have made such a claim?

Neverrepayevilwithevil said...

David, May God keep you, guide you and may He cause his face to shine upon you and give you His peace.
This is a BOMBSHELL. As they say in the court of law... I rest my Case.

Neil said...

Hands down the best video I have ever seen from you. GREAT work!

Search 4 Truth said...

Everything points to Mohamed as an anti Christ!

Tom said...

ROFL! KAFIR AND PROUD AND LAUGHIN' OUT LOUD!!

David, you are a GEM! You are a TREASURE! Surely the Living God in Jesus Christ has called you out for this mission. You are far more patient with our Muslim sisters and brothers than I am but you make me remember that my Lord & Savior died for them, also. AND, thank Heaven, because of His Grace, Muslims are escaping from Islam by the hundreds, every day, all over the world.

THANK YOU for sharing this treasure with us all. What a gift! I know you'll top this somehow, someday but for now, just let us enjoy this and we'll share it all over the web.

BLESS YOU, DAVID!!
MAY JESUS CHRIST BE PRAISED!!

Baron Eddie said...

I take my Arabian Mantle off to you ...

Very information, and very to the Aorta ...

I must admit your arabic pronunciation is improving ...

I was shocked to find out Muslims in the West interpreting Quran spiritually!!!

Muslims taking tafsir of Cleric's Fatwa as I saw some over here copy and paste!

You are showing the true/original tafsir, the fathers of Islam ...

Muslims are collecting any book from the market in the Middle East after they found out it is a big boo boo ...

In the Al Azhar Institute there are a lot of references and none are allowed to be checked out or making photo copy of anything! ...

I encourage Muslims to remove all violent versus from Quran and worship your god as you want ...

Pray for all Muslim to the know the Truth

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life.

قَالَ لَهُ يَسُوعُ: «أَنَا هُوَ الطَّرِيقُ وَالْحَقُّ وَالْحَيَاةُ.

donna60 said...

This was very nicely organized material, and soooooo funny!

Mahdi said...

Your points don't add up David. Since when does poison circulate in the body for years and cut a person's artery?

We as Muslims believe that Prophets are mere human beings who eventually die like the rest of us once they finish spreading the message of God. If Prophet Muhammad was a false Prophet (aoothobillah) then he would not have been successful in spreading fabrications.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) ate some poisoned meat and felt pain from it. When he was on his deathbed, he mentions feeling pain that was similar to his previous experience of eating poisoned meat. That's it.

Perhaps you and all the other Christians should stop spewing lies about Islam and get back to solving your theological dilemma that your God (Jesus) died.

Haecceitas said...

I'm giving you some traffic from search engine ads for this video. You should receive around 450 hits that originate from searches on some of the more common Islamic keywords.

kenmehms said...

Wow! Absolutely gobsmacking.

There is no way Muslims can come back from this. I have read the account of his poisoning and death several times but have totally overlooked this.

Praise God for opening your mind to this, I cannot wait to share this with people.

Face it Muslims. There is just too much stacked up against your false prophet as it is: pedophile, rapist, murderer, torturer, pillager, sex addict, liar, hater, demon possessed, bewitched, slave owner etc.

Even with just one of the above you would have to seriously consider his credentials. But with all these and more the Muslims blindly hang on to the fact that he is a prophet.

You Muslims have to come up with too many excuses for your prophets behaviour. I can't understand how you still believe.

"oh" Muslims will say, " it's the translation" or "the sources can't be trusted". Yet they will use these very same sources if it says something good about their prophet or if they think it will prove he is a prophet.

Funny thing they are quick enough to point out that the Bible has been corrupted, but are happy enough to quote from it when they think there is a prophecy in it about Muhammad.

What is it then Muslims? The Bible has been corrupted, apart from the verses you think are prophecies about Muhammad?

Plus I was in Hyde park a while back. And a Muslim was insulting the Bible, Jesus, also the speaker Jay Smith and myself.

I turned round and said Muhammad is a pedophile. This Muslim then lost it and said he was going to "fix me" he turned round to the friends he was with and said "let's get him after and fix him"

Talk about double standards.

Mahdi said...

I just finished watching your video myself, and I must say there are a lot of holes and contradictions in your allegation.

Firstly, you argue that the poisoned meat was what killed him. This isn't true, since the Prophet (peace be upon him) died 4 years after this poisoned meat incident. His companion who did eat from the meat died instantly, as the Hadith states:

"With him was Bishr b. al-Bara b. Marur, who, like the messenger of God, took some of it; Bishr, however, swallowed it, while the messenger of God spat it out saying, "This bone informs me that it has been poisoned." He asked, "What led you to do this?" She said: "How you have afflicted my people is not hidden from you. So I said, "If he is a prophet, he will be informed; but if he is a king, I shall be rid of him"". The prophet forgave her. Bishr died of the food he had eaten."

As we can see, the poison was designed to have immediate effects. If the Prophet (peace be upon him) was truly affected by the poison, then he would've died instantly. He didn't, despite feeling some pain from it.

Secondly, the Prophet did not die by having his aorta cut. He did mention feeling pain in his chest, but it wasn't because of a severed artery. Having your aorta cut results in instant death, so it's impossible to have it cut while still being alive to complain about it.

I think this should be a nice refutation of your video, wouldn't you agree, David?

Truth Alone Triumphs said...

@ Mahdi

You say :-

" As we can see, the poison was designed to have immediate effects. If the Prophet (peace be upon him) was truly affected by the poison, then he would've died instantly. He didn't, despite feeling some pain from it.

Secondly, the Prophet did not die by having his aorta cut. He did mention feeling pain in his chest, but it wasn't because of a severed artery. Having your aorta cut results in instant death, so it's impossible to have it cut while still being alive to complain about it."

Response:- (1) First of all getting influenced or affected means influenced or effected only. There is no such thing TRULY or FALSELY affected.

(2) If the poison was designed to have immediate effect , then we wasn't supposed to have a record of Bishr b. al-Bara's conversation with your prophet that why and how he ate when he saw the prophet eating it etc etc. It should have been like someone being shot dead with a strike of pistol's bullet on his forehead. But that wasn't the case here.

(3) David dealt with argument already which you have bought forth that sometimes God does wait. Please go through the whole visual carefully.

(4) As I said earlier that there is no such thing TRULY or FALSELY affected but affected means affected ONLY, hence if we see the case in a nut shell, then Muhammad, your prophet should have not been affected by any means of the poison had he been a true prophet. But that is not the case. So the only conclusion which we can draw from this that he wasn't a true prophet.

(5) Let's see what does aorta mean :-

" The aorta ( /eɪˈɔrtə/; from Greek ἀορτή - aortē, from ἀείρω - aeirō "I lift, raise")[1] is the largest artery in the body, originating from the left ventricle of the heart and extending down to the abdomen, where it branches off into two smaller arteries (the common iliacs). The aorta distributes oxygenated blood to all parts of the body through the systemic circulation.[2] "

Source :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorta

And you say :-


" He did mention feeling pain in his chest, but it wasn't because of a severed artery."

Well how can we know this what you are alleging ? The aorta originates from your bosom only (from heart). So quite possible that your prophet's aorta's was getting damaged gradually and (not instantaneously) because God is slow to anger. You cannot read the mind of God that in which manner He is going to execute His judgement. It could have an instant affect or gradual.

So we really cannot rule out the possibility that the cause of death wasn't that what Brother David Wood raised using the Islamic sources only....

And pondering deeply upon the facts that is being presented in the visual pertaining to the issue, we can only conclude that it must be the case what David is saying.

Think upon that...

Hazakim1 said...

Mahdi said, "He did mention feeling pain in his chest, but it wasn't because of a severed artery."

The problem is, Muhammad did not say "I feel pain in my chest" but rather "my aorta has been cut. It sounds to me as if Mahdi is correcting his own prophet.

Lastly, it is clear from all the muslim sources that it was the poison (of which Muhammad consumed less than Bishir who swallowed a whole mouthful) that eventually led to Muhammad's slow & painful death. This is per the words of Muhammad. Must've been some potent stuff.

I realize how harmful it would be to realize that you and your ancestors died believing a lie....my heart goes out to those who have been duped. I can only imagine the disbelief and denial....but we must come to grips with truth or answer to God.

hugh watt said...

Madhi

"Firstly, you argue that the poisoned meat was what killed him. This isn't true, since the Prophet (peace be upon him) died 4 years after this poisoned meat incident. His companion who did eat from the meat died instantly,"

But...

Sunan Abu Dawud 4449—Umm Bishr said to the Prophet during the sickness of which he died: What do you think about your illness, Apostle of Allah? I do not think about the illness of my son except the poisoned sheep of which he had eaten with you at Khaibar.

Why are you questioning him? It's like saying a person who smoked heavily throughout their lifetime and died from smoking related illness could not really have died that way, even if the autopsy showed this to be so.

Sunan Abu Dawud 4498—...
What motivated you to do the work you have done? She said: If you were a prophet, it would not harm you;...

But it did harm him proving her point!

"As we can see, the poison was designed to have immediate effects. If the Prophet (peace be upon him) was truly affected by the poison, then he would've died instantly."

It did have immediate affect. Where is the rule that says it had to kill him instantly?

Sahih al-Bukhari 4428—The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O Aishah! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.”

Ibn Ishaq, p. 516 ...Bishr b. al-Bara b. Ma’rur who was with him took some of it as the apostle had done, but he swallowed it, while the apostle spat it out,

This seems the likely reason he didn't die right then.

hugh watt said...

C L Edwards and "C"

Would you mind saying why you both became Muslims and what it was that made you leave Islam?

Thanks.

CL Edwards said...

Mahdi, you don't read well, because if you did you never would have raised these objections. It was not David who said Muhammad's last illness was related to the poisoning... it was...wait for it...Muhammad!

Sahih al-Bukhari 4428—The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O Aishah! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.”

So you reject the idea that poison could kill someone four years after consumption, well then you reject a sahih hadeeth, which means you nullify your Islam..welcome to the other side brother!

You say "As we can see, the poison was designed to have immediate effects. If the Prophet (peace be upon him) was truly affected by the poison, then he would've died instantly. He didn't, despite feeling some pain from it."

Then I guess Muhammad doesn't know what He is talking about..I agree with you, He is not much of a Prophet. Your whole argument is; the poison didn't kill him immediately..so that can not be what killed him. kind of a strawman don't you think? I don't recall David making any case that the poison had to take effect suddenly, and the text of the hadeeth mentions nothing about the Jewish woman expecting Him to die instantly. You are fighting shadows buddy.

Then you say " the Prophet did not die by having his aorta cut. He did mention feeling pain in his chest, but it wasn't because of a severed artery. Having your aorta cut results in instant death, so it's impossible to have it cut while still being alive to complain about it. "

Again it was not David who said this, it was Muhammad. I have never in my entire life heard of anyone having pain in their chest and exclaiming " I feel as if my aorta is being cut", that a really odd statement. So brother, Allah and his Messenger know best. If Muhammad said he felt the pain in a specific part of his body.. his aorta, and He is the one who receives the News from Jibrail, aren't you obligated to put his words over your own thoughts? Must I remind you

" But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] Quran surah 4:65"

So you can not be logically inconsistent, by being a fundamentalist when it suits you, then reverting to being a post modernist when it doesn't...but most Muslim's manage to do just that any-time their religion is challenged, so I guess you guys are... consistently inconsistent.

I guess next you will tell us you are Quran only?

Zack_Tiang said...

Excellent stuff! Time to go viral, people!

Kim said...

There are plenty of refutations of this weak and desperate claim all over the net. Have fun.

Osama Abdallah said...

David Wood,

Are you telling us that the Bible's Prophets who were killed by the Jews were false? Luke 13:34-35, 1 Kings 18:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:15, Romans 11:3, Matthew 23:37, 2 Chronicles 24:22, Nehemiah 9:26.
Want 20 more references or are these sufficient enough to silence you?

Also, what poison would kill a person after 3 years from eating it?! Are you guys serious, or are you, as always, just desperately trying to prove anything out of thin air?

The Prophet died of no poison. This was a lie fabricated on Islam by the hypocrites and the "Israelite Hadiths". I doubt that we even today have a poison that could kill you after three years.

David Wood, you mentioned in your previous video that on the surface Islam is so beautiful that you wanted to know how to "sign in". Then you said that as we dig deeper, we find that Islam is false. May I suggest that you look at Islam more seriously and more objectively, and not from the hateful bigots' and pagan's lens?

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

The Purple Marquise said...

@Mahdi: What you said is nonsense on so many levels!

You said: "Firstly, you argue that the poisoned meat was what killed him. This isn't true, since the Prophet (peace be upon him) died 4 years after this poisoned meat incident. His companion who did eat from the meat died instantly, as the Hadith states:

"With him was Bishr b. al-Bara b. Marur, who, like the messenger of God, took some of it; Bishr, however, swallowed it, while the messenger of God spat it out saying, "This bone informs me that it has been poisoned." He asked, "What led you to do this?" She said: "How you have afflicted my people is not hidden from you. So I said, "If he is a prophet, he will be informed; but if he is a king, I shall be rid of him"

First of all, Mahdi, ask any toxicologist that you want and he would tell you that the dose of any poised is the MOST IMPORTANT factor which determines its effectiveness. Many poisons are so toxic that the smallest contact with them kills you immediately. But there are those that you have to get a rather heavy dose of it to die instantly. But that doesn't mean that if you don't get a big enough dose to die instantly you are not "really harmed". You most definitely are harmed, only the harm is not enough to kill you right away, but it can cause sever damage to your internal organs such as hart and liver. It can effect your blood pressure. It can cause debilitating damage to your nervous system enough to make you handicapped but not dead. There are many many cases of slow deaths by poisoning recorded in history.If you want to get a glimpse of it just read some accounts of French courtiers and even some kings getting poisoned while dying very slowly and in terrible agony. Muhammed is not the only one who died in this way.

Since Muhammed spitted out the poisoned lamb after he tasted the poison with his tongue it is very clear that he got a much smaller dose than Bishr who swallowed the poisoned meat. But as it is plainly apparent from the Hadith records he never recovered from the effects of the poisoning. Meaning the poison damaged some of his internal organs which made him permanently affected and in pain and these damages usually get worse and worse over time, because when one organ doesn't do its job well other organs have to work overtime to make up for it and that wears them off and the damaged organ too will in many cases wither and become much worse over time and eventually either the damaged organ or one of the other organs that had to work overtime and endure sever stress will give way and the person dies. How long he will last in these conditions depend on the extent of the damage and the strength of his constitution. But anyway this results in a very slow and agonizing death that I wouldn't even wish on my enemies! It is one of the worst ways to go! Really!!! If one is poisoned and is not to ever recover the most merciful thing that can happen to him is to die instantly. But your prophet who I think was accursed and under the wrath of the True God was condemned to this most painful of deaths for his lies and despicable acts and false prophecies!

The Purple Marquise said...

As far as the aorta issue goes you are wrong again. Many people just before receiving a massive heart attack have great pain in their chest area and feel that their arteries are under extreme pressure. That is because they are experiencing an unusually high blood pressure which is just about to literally burst their arteries. They feel it right before it happens and they do complain about it. Most of them are dead or very close to it rather fast. That's why if you feel such symptoms you should get yourself to the nearest emergency room ASAP! Time is of the essence! But if you in many cases have enough time to get yourself to hospital after feeling that your "aorta is about to burst" then you have enough time to complain about it to your wife as well! That's why Muhammed had the chance to inform us that his aorta was being severed prior to his death and the Hadith writers recorded it for the posterity.

Last but not least you wrote: "" She said: "How you have afflicted my people is not hidden from you. So I said, "If he is a prophet, he will be informed; but if he is a king, I shall be rid of him"". The prophet forgave her….." Where did you get that from that your prophet forgave her? Give reference since I read this here:

Sunan abu Dawud 4498: "……She said: If you were a prophet, it would not harm you; but if you were a king, I should rid the people of you. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) then ordered regarding her and she was killed….."

So tell us where did you get this that "he forgave her"???

All in all I think you refuted nothing. You just made up false and phony objections to David's video non of which stands after the smallest amount of research and scrutiny. So think harder and come back here and this time try to give some objections that can stand to reason and evidence of the world around us at least for one second!

P.S.In your other comment you said: "Perhaps you and all the other Christians should stop spewing lies about Islam and get back to solving your theological dilemma that your God (Jesus) died. " Didn't I tell you folks? When a Muslim runs out of good arguments in favor of his religion (which is pretty quickly) he gives up defending Islam and instead attack the doctrine of Trinity or substitutionary atonement or incarnation as if that erases the objections that were brought up against his religion! As if even if we could not have answered his question about "God Dying" in Christianity, somehow Muhammad is shown to be a true prophet despite ALL the evidences to the contrary! Mehdi! You guys are so predictable! But if you don't want your religion to be a laughingstock you must do better than that!

Radical Moderate said...

Where is Osama Abudllah he seems to have gone dark after this video. I guess he got smacked up side the head like Aisha raiseing up Mohameds sandle to smack ALI.

@Hazakim I am not saying Muslims do not believe this nonsense. What I am saying is that when Muslims try to make Mohamed or Islam look good they make it look that much worse.

As Mahadi pointed out why didn't Mohamed die of the poison imidielty. A poision that takes three years to kill, but kills Bashir almost imiedilty?????

Islamic Theology states that only Martyrs are assured of heaven. Mohamed did not die a Martyrs death. BIG BIG PROBLEM FOR MUSLIMS.

So to resolve this major problem and make Mohamed a Martyr, muslims came up with this story. A jewish woman poisoned him three years earlier so there he died a Martyr. Problem solved????

Not so fast, as David has masterfully pointed out this casues more much more problems for Mohamed. It is obvious that Mohamed was making up revelations.

Whether the story is true, or whether it is a exageration. The point is when ever a Muslim trys to make Mohamed or Islam sound better they make it sound so much worse.

This is the desperation they are forced into because they have a clearly false religion.

John 8:24 said...

Did anyone notice that Mahdi did not provide even one reference for his so called 'refutation'? In contrast, I counted 16 references that David used in this post. I see this pattern again and again. David meticulously provides numerous reference from the Quran, authentic Hadiths, Sira and Muslim commentaries from the greatest Islamic scholars to support his arguments. And Muslims come here, write whatever they feel like writing, throw in general statements without providing a single reference and pat themselves on the back as if they refuted the argument! Self-delusion, I say.

Tom said...

@ Sam: Sir, you are one of my heroes and THANK YOU for the reference over to "Answering-Islam.org". That site has been a major resource for many of us. AWESOME! And your reference is one MORE reason why Answering-Islam.org is such a great place to learn.

@ CL Edwards, you are a blessing, precious Brother. It's great to read you here and your vids are always welcome when I see them on the Tube. Looks like our buddy "Mahdi" has backed himself into a corner. Maybe "Mahdi" should have more emulated the legendary Madhi: Paul, Muad'Dib instead of the fictional Islamic prophet "Muhammad". At least from Paul Atreides, "Mahdi" might have learned something about honor, courage, loyalty and hope...
Or better yet, Madhi could emulate the Christ of God in Jesus of Nazareth, who - in Rev. 19:11 [from the only Holy Word of the Only Living God] - is called "Faithful and True..."

KAFIR AND PROUD!!

CristoTeAma said...

Excellet video, i read about this before thx to Brother Sam, and i remember that i told to myself "if i were a muslim i would have to admit that at least at the ending of Muhammad's life he was not a good prophet and allah punished him and let him die so misserably because of that" but we all know most Muslims won't be honest to themselves. Great video..

Hazakim1 said...

I tell you the truth: If Gabriel himself were to come from heaven and proclaim that Muhammad is a false prophet, our muslim friends would conjure weak refutations against it. Osama (in typical pathetic muslim fashion) blames the "Israelite" Jews for the hadiths in question....Kim just makes a claim that it has been refuted. There is no hope save that God sovereignly opens their eyes.

CristoTeAma said...

a question for EVERYONE: Do any of you know a good enlgish site were i can find all Hadiths collections? at least the Sahis? because i used to use one but it isn't working anymore, and i am having some discussions with a Muslim in my work and she can't believe there are hadiths like these ones (she didn't even know about Muhammad allowing slavery, she told me Islam came to deliver ppl from that, i was trying so hard to hold my laugh), so i need to show her the sources from Internet and not just my quotations because i know she will not dare to search them herself.

CristoTeAma said...

Osama said..

"hateful bigots' and pagan's lens?"

It's your prophet who said in his final words "expell all the Jews and Christians", he is the one who lived and died being a horrible being filled of hate and lust... And about the "Pagan lens", well it was your God who made us victorious over the Jews so i guess he like the religions based on the most horrible sin in Islam (Shirk) than the unitarian god of the Jews, also if we are Pagans then why Muhammad said you must not treat us like such but instead try to make us Dhimmies, and make us pay Jyzzia, and even marry Christians and Jew women? Muslims of the XXI century knows more than Allah and Muhammad i guess...

Truth Alone Triumphs said...

Mr Osama Abdallah was promised by David Wood of this particular visual. I think Bro David mean this particular visual only to which he said that he will dedicate it to Mr Abdullah.

Osama insulted him by saying that he is like a female dog who is in heat.

Anyways alleging this :-

" The Prophet died of no poison. This was a lie fabricated on Islam by the hypocrites and the "Israelite Hadiths". "

Well sir, this is what your own muslim hadith collectors have collected.

So why these muslim guys (the hadith collectors) could have entrusted any of the Jews when they had in the Qur'an that these Jewish guys are the worst enemies of muslims (viz Qur'an 5:82) ?

So definitely these traditions would have not come the Israelites or Jews.

What is the proof Mr Abdullah have that it is as such what he is saying ?

Secondly :-


" Are you telling us that the Bible's Prophets who were killed by the Jews were false? Luke 13:34-35, 1 Kings 18:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:15, Romans 11:3, Matthew 23:37, 2 Chronicles 24:22, Nehemiah 9:26. Want 20 more references or are these sufficient enough to silence you? "


Here Mr Abdallah has utterly failed to perceive what David is trying to say least he would have not asked the above.

What David wanna say is this that the Islamic sources are telling us that Muhammad, the prophet of Islam cannot be a true prophet.

It is because Allah is saying that if Muhammad may fabricate things of his own and ascribe them to Allah. then Allah will be killing him by cutting his aorta.

Yet we can see that Muhammad himself is admitting that he feels as if his aorta is getting cut and he died of the same ailment.

So David wanna say that this cannot be a co incidence that the prophet felt the same being sufering from the ailment (which finally took his life) of what Allah talks in Qur'an i.e cutting his Aorta but definitely there must be some thing to ponder that why would prophet die in that manner.

David is reasoning actually which Mr Abdullah is either not getting or is comprehending though but deliberately attacking strawman.....

It does happens Mr Abdullah ....have a heart.

And we would like to see your proofs in support of your allegation that it was fabricated lie that your prophet died of poison.

Its a common and well known excuse to call any of the tradition unauthentic when it embarrasses you. lol....

Now do not even use something like " FEMALE DOG IN HEAT " sir least it would be even more worse then this....;-)

CristoTeAma said...

BTW i am a Doctor, and i am not saying that this is the case, but when ppl like Madhi and Osama says stuffs about the 3 years it took the poison to kill Muhammad, i would like to tell you that many poisons can damage the Liver, and after the liver is in trouble it can start a chain reaction in many other organs that can take years to develop. BUT i think that we shouldn't even be looking for scientific explainations since it seems to be Allah was miraculously killing Muhammad slowly as a punishment for being a false prophet at the ending of his life, or that's what Muslims should understand when reading the Quran + Hadiths.

Hemel said...

Osama will you tell that very thing that muhammad did not die because of the effect of poisoning in a mosque in a muslim country?If you do then please come here.You are welcome.And if muslims call you a liar and start chase you and you be running for your life ,I will be giving you shelter.:P

Hemel said...

@Kim.Do you think if someone says something in reply that means its a refutation?And again if you are a women then already your father or husband should beat the daylights out of you because you are engaging with men here esp chistian men

CristoTeAma said...

Osama said..

" Are you telling us that the Bible's Prophets who were killed by the Jews were false? Luke 13:34-35, 1 Kings 18:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:15, Romans 11:3, Matthew 23:37, 2 Chronicles 24:22, Nehemiah 9:26. Want 20 more references or are these sufficient enough to silence you? "

You are missing the point, David is not saying no man of god has died as Martyr, but we don't find our Prophets saying " If i am a lier YHWH the almighty will give me leprosy" and in the next chap we find that this prophet suddenly gets leprosy and dies misserably. Osama i am not a scholar but i am shock about your weak answers.

donna60 said...

Mahdi,

What religious dilemma that Jesus, our God, died?

What is the dilemma? God died for our sins. Why do you think that this is a religious dilemma?

jonnykzj said...

@Osama Abdallah

Although im a Quran Alone Muslim i need to defend Christians here. You said:
"Are you telling us that the Bible's Prophets who were killed by the Jews were false? Luke 13:34-35, 1 Kings 18:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:15, Romans 11:3, Matthew 23:37, 2 Chronicles 24:22, Nehemiah 9:26. Want 20 more references or are these sufficient enough to silence you?"

JK- Did you not spot the difference in this instance? In Muhammad's case, according to the hadith, HIS AORTA WAS DETERIOTING AWAY GRADUALLY i.e. he himself claimed tht he feels if his aorta is being cut WHICH IS EXACTLY THE PUNISHMEN ALLAG MENTIONED IN THE QURAN FOR MUHAMMAD SHLD HE EVER DEVIATE. THATS ONE. Another point Christians could argue is that yes Prophets were sinners and all prpphets were INFERIOR TO JESUS. BUT WHT sense would it make for God to make an iNFERIOR MESSENGER/PROPHET THE FINAL ONE INSTEAD OF THE PERFECT IDEAL ONE ACCORDING TO THEIR SCRIPTURES i.e. JESUS? This is also why quoting the OT for violence doesnt impress Chritians. Sure there was cilence for a local time and place WHERE BTW GOD WAS DIRECTLY PRESENT WITH HIS MIRACLES THROUGH E.G.MOSES VERIFIED BY THE GREATEST SKEPTICS/MAGICIANS OF THT TIME. AND ONLY IN THSOE TIMES DID GOD ACCORDING TO CHRISIANS ALLOW FOR SUCH HARSH PUNISHMENT. After Jesus, no more direct miracles or direct intervention fom od and hence no permission for ppl to judge on their own wld be their argument. Ever thght of tht mr. Osama?

donna60 said...

Osama,

No one is questioning the prophesies concerning any of the prophets. Why would they?

For the record, I have a hard time believing that a poison could take that long to kill a person--especially if the poison was one that was supposed to kill quickly, which the poison that Zaynab used did.

Whether I believe it or not, however, isn't the issue. The issue is that Mohammad did believe it. I don't claim to be a prophet, but Mohammad did. If Mohammad was wrong about this, then it only proves that he was a false prophet.

Neither did I claim that Mohammad's aorta was severed. I wasn't there when they did the autopsy. But that is what Mohammad said. Mohammad said that his aorta was severed, and he was the one that claimed to be a prophet, not me.

By the way, a Muslim on a different site, is using your material about Christians and Jews marrying sisters. Thanks my friend. It was so easy to refute.

The calling wives, "sisters" is ancient. It even shows up in the romantic poetry of ancient Egypt.

Even rap stars and rock and roll musicians use the term sister as a term of endearment to a beloved woman.

Have you heard the song "Hey Soul Sister?"

"Hey, Hey, Hey."

Deleting said...

Osama,
"Israelite Hadiths". "

Seriously. That's the dumbest thing I've heard you say.

minoria said...

PART 1

Hello Mahdi

I always try to go to the MINIMALIST POSITION.You said the poison was NOT the cause of Muhammad's death.

Ok,let's say it's true.

USING THE HISTORICAL METHOD

Using the criteria of embrarassment and multiple attestation the BASIC story is HIGHLY PROBABLE,if not 100%.

Muh. ate poisoned food and it AFFECTED him PSYCHOLOGICALLY

POWER OF THE MIND

It is something I learned researching about Jesus.It will come as a surprise to you but non-Christian,skeptical,anti-supernaturalist scholars say the Historical Jesus did do SOMETHING that was considered a MIRACLE.They don't for a second believe he really did a miracle...it was the power of suggestion.One group that accepts is the very LIBERAL JESUS SEMINAR

Read:

You can translate using Google Translate:

http://translate.google.com/

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/11/le-groupe-sceptique-jesus-seminar-et-les-miracles-de-jesus/

minoria said...

PART 2

FOR CRISTOTEAMA(it means "Christ loves you" in Spanish)

Here is a link to the HADITHS of BUKHARI,MUSLIM,MALIK's MUWATTA and a partial collection of ABU DAWUD

Espero que esto sea de ayuda(I hope this helps)

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/

TO CONTINUE

Ok,so let's go to the evidence.

POSITIVE POWER OF THE MIND

1.The boy with wrinkled skin.There was a British boy who had what is called "reptilian skin"or Ichthyosis.A doctor suggested he would get better and the boy actually believed it and it got alot of better.It should NOT have changed.

So he put in treatement(psychological suggestion)for several weeks and there was success of 50-95%,depending on the area.

A.N.WILSON's "Jesus,a Life"

He is an ex-Christian,British,who does not believe Jesus rose from the dead,and in his book he accepts that Jesus did do something simila to a miracle,he gives the above case as a example of Jesus' power of suggestion.

minoria said...

PART 3

POSITIVE POWER OF THE MIND

The CASE OF RASPUTIN

The last Tsar of Russia,Nicholas II,had a son Alexis who had HEMOPHILIA.Then they had no PLASMA.With hemophilia the blood does not stop if there is a cut or bump that causes an internal cut.

It takes HOURS,unless you use plasma,to stop it,and then the person suffers excrutiating pain.

A false saint called RASPUTIN,from Siberia,who had astonishing hypnotical powers,or at least power of suggestion,was able to STOP the BLEEDING of the Tsarevich Alexis.

MEDICALLY SPEAKING it is IMPOSSIBLE,it can not be explained.

INDIAN DENTISTS AND HYPNOSIS

There are some who can hypnotize their patients and TAKE OUT TEETH WITHOUT anesthesia.

The Purple Marquise said...

Osama Abdallah said: "The Prophet died of no poison. This was a lie fabricated on Islam by the hypocrites and the "Israelite Hadiths".

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Goebbels himself would be so proud of you Mr. Osama! So now any Hadith that is incriminating to Mohammed, even if it is called Sahih and is collected by pious Muslim scholars it cannot be believed because it must be the fabrication of "The Jew"!! Right Mr. Osama? Why? Well... because we already KNOW that Muhammed was a true prophet, because our mommy and daddy and Imam told us so! right? So when ever a Hadith shows him in a bad light it MUST be fabricated... By "The Jew"! There is no other way around it!! Right? Aren't you a bit circular in your "reasoning" here, Mr. Osama!!??

Yes! You are right!!! All the woes of the Muslims are because of "The Israelites"!! I guess MOSAD must have paid to Imam Bukhari a hefty sum to induce him to include these truly incriminating stuff about Mohammed in his Hadith collection! Right Mr. Abdallah!?

Osama Abdallah said: "David Wood, you mentioned in your previous video that on the surface Islam is so beautiful that you wanted to know how to "sign in". Then you said that as we dig deeper, we find that Islam is false. May I suggest that you look at Islam more seriously and more objectively, and not from the hateful bigots' and pagan's lens?"

So let's see: Other than the fact that there is ZERO evidence anywhere to suggest that Muhammed actually was a true prophet (his evidence was his own word!!! How hard is it to get yourself to testify for yourself!!!!??) which pretty much excludes Islam from the list of true religions whether or not Mohammed's teachings are beautiful or not, we also have the several thousands or so Ahadith Sahih which reading them pretty much nauseates any compassionate and peace loving person and confronts him or her with a non-stop barrage of graphic violence and sex and 7th century superstition, all reported approvingly and in glowing terms.

Then we also have the witless Quran with its confused jumbled up and illogical text and subpar poetry and storytelling and constant graphic threats of burning us alive over and over again in hell if we fail to obey Allah and his apostle!

Then we have a blood-soaked history of wars of unprovoked aggression against Islam's peaceful neighbors. Then we have misogyny and burkas and hijabs forced on millions of women (don't tell me they all just "choose" to wear it!! I personally was FORCED to wear it in my home country and the vast majority of the women that I knew growing up where forced as well and hated it!) and wife-beating and child marriages and polygamy and sex slavery.

Then we have Hodud laws whereby people are lashed and stoned on a regular basis for doing things that frankly are nobody's business! Then we have Al Qaeda and Taliban and 9/11 and terrorism. Then we have virulent anti-semitism and "hateful bigotry" like the one displayed so unabashedly by Mr. Abdallah's in his remarks above. And last but not least we have the stuff that David Wood pointed out in his video as more corroborating evidence. Wow!! What a beautiful religion!!! Where can I sign up?!!

The Purple Marquise said...

.......Oh!! And let me add to that list of sublime beauties of Islam this gem: Female circumcision know as Khetan which is actually Wajib or obligatory in Shafei schools of Sunni Jurisprudence. Don't believe me?

Here is the proof:

http://www.shafifiqh.com/what-is-the-ruling-on-circumcision-for-women/

Question:
Assalamu Alaikum
What is the mu`tamad qowl (relied upon position) of the Shafi`ee Mazhab regarding the khatnah (circumcision) of women? Is it wajib (obligatory) or sunnat?
Also, what if a woman was ignorant if it being wajib will it be incumbent on her during her advanced age to perform khatnah?
Jazakumullah
Answer:
الحمد لله رب العالمين ، وصلى الله على سيدنا محمد وعلى آله وصحبه أجمعين، وبالله التوفيق
الختان واجب على الرجال والنساء عندنا (المجموع: 1: 164)
ويمنع من ختان الكبيرة لخوف التلف (الروضة: 3: 384)
Circumcision is obligatory upon men and women according to us (i.e. the Shafi’is). (Majmu’ of Imam An-Nawawi 1:164) The circumcision is wajib upon men and women according to the rājih qawl of Shāfiʿī madhhab. In a situation a woman is in her advanced age, it is not permissible to circumcise her if it may harm her (al-Rauḍah of Imam An-Nawawi: 3: 384).
والله أعلم
Allah knows best
Answered by:
Sidi Abdullah Muḥammad al-Marbūqī al-Shāfiʿī

minoria said...

PART 4

Hello Donna,

God did not die,it was only the body of Jesus that died,when the spirit of GOD THE SON left it,but God can never die,even if he wanted to.

THE POSITIVE POWER OF THE MIND

PLACEBO

It is a worthless substance that doctors give to patients telling them it will make them feel better and often it helps.

NORMAN COUSINS

He was afflicted with a terrile illness and he decided to use LAUGHTER to cure himself and did it,and he wrote a book about it.

THE NEGATIVE POWER OF THE MIND

PSYCHOSOMATIC ILLNESSES

That's when a perfectly healthy person develops health problems even though he shouldn't all do to mental stress.

The Case of ELIZABETH BARRETT BROWNING

She is a famous English poet,who wrote "Letters from the Portuguese".She thought she was responsible for the death of her brother,though she wasn't and though 100% healthy LOST the ABIITY to WALK and was confined to a WHEELCHAIR for many years

THE WITCHDOCTOR AND DEATH

Scholars have told of cases in primitive tribal groups where the WITCHDOCTOR puts a curse on a village member,saying he will die soon,and in 1 WEEK a perfectly healthy young man dies because he is so convinced it will happen,he loses all desire to live,simply dies.

I think Muhammad was affected psychologically by the attempted poisoning it finally affected him PHYSICALLY,probably giving him a heart attack,he lost respiration.

John 8:24 said...

Osama, Mahdi & Kim,

So you claim that Muhammad did not die because of poisoning by a Jewish woman? Whom are you fooling? Not one Muslim that I met would agree with you! You did not even provide a single reference to support your claim. You keep throwing in baseless statements such as 'it is all a lie fabricated by the Jews' (oh, those evil Jews! - hey, wait a minute, that sounds bigoted to me!) without any supporting evidence! Osama, you call yourself a debater. Incredibly pathetic!

Here is a direct quote from the Islam QA website:

----
Some people doubt that the prophet may have died from poisoning. As a result of eating from the poisoned sheep that was offered to him by the Jewish woman, is this true?

Praise be to Allaah.

It is proven by the scholars who studied the Prophet’s biography in detail that he ate mutton that had been poisoned by a Jewish woman in Khaybar , then the leg of mutton spoke and informed the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that it was poisoned, so he stopped eating it. When his final illness came, he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O ‘Aa’ishah, I still feel the pain of the food that I ate in Khaybar, and this time I feel that my aorta is being cut from that poison.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh. So there is no room for doubt that this poison affected his body, since it is proven in al-Saheeh and elsewhere.

And Allaah is the Source of strength. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions. End quote.

Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez Aal al-Shaykh, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan, Shaykh Bakr Abu Zayd

Source: http://islamqa.com/en/ref/106415/poison
-----

So you guys claim to know better than the Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas? What David says is no different from the above. Your 'refutation' just got destroyed by your own scholars! HA HA HA!!!

John 8:24 said...

Osama said (without any reference or evidence): "Are you guys serious, or are you, as always, just desperately trying to prove anything out of thin air? The Prophet died of no poison. This was a lie fabricated on Islam by the hypocrites and the "Israelite Hadiths". "

The Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas (SCARIF) says: "It is proven by the scholars who studied the Prophet’s biography in detail that he ate mutton that had been poisoned by a Jewish woman in Khaybar.... So there is no room for doubt that this poison affected his body, since it is proven in al-Saheeh and elsewhere"

Osama, so the SCARIF are also 'desperately trying to prove anything out of thin air'? Are the SCARIF hypocrites and part of the Jewish conspiracy (oh, those evil Jews!) to fabricate lies about your prophet Muhammad? Tell us, Osama!

Or is it that, Osama, YOU did not study in detail like the other Islamic scholars (and David Wood!)?

(Osama must now be looking for ways to eat his own words!)

jonnykzj said...

@David Wood in particular but any Christian is welcome to reply

I just watched a debate btw David and Osama in 2009 "Was Muhammad a true Prophet?". Now in that debate David claims at one point that a Wiccan tried to cast a spell on him and it didnt work and other magicians who claimed they cld cast a variety of spells to damage ppl arnd the world said that whilst they could do these they were unable to do so on Christians. MY PROBLEM with this is that "James Randi" and many associates of the JREF WORLDWIDE have gone out in search of such "spellcasters", ALL OF THEM FAILING in their supposed magic on the skeptics who are mostly atheists/agnostics. SO David whilst i agree it wld be awesome to see these tricks just failing EXCLUSIVELY on Christians(thtd be a reason for me to almost instantly become a christian), there doesnt seem to be evidence that this is the case. What do youhave to say regarding this?

Radical Moderate said...

Osama does speak lol.

Osama so Mohamed was not killed by the poison? So then Mohamed did not die a martyr?

Is taht what you are saying. Mohamed died a sick old man in his child brides bed? You shame your prophet like this.

CristoTeAma said...

@Minoria- Thx you brother/sister for the answer,i don't know what does your name mean but it rocks too hehe

Christ loves you all- Cristo os ama a todos vosotros.

Baron Eddie said...

To all Muslim brothers and sisters, I checked the reference that Brother David gave in Arabic

(Sahih al-Bukhari 4428—The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O Aishah! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.”)

In Arabic does not say "as if my aorta ..." but it says

"and now is my aorta is being cut from that poison."

Here is the reference from an Islamic web site in Arabic ...

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=79&ID=282&idfrom=11847&idto=11880&bookid=79&startno=9

Another interesting thing in the exegesis of that surah says that this event "was Mohammed's destiny before he was born" ...

5965 - وعنها ، قال : كان رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - يقول في مرضه الذي مات فيه : ( يا عائشة ! ما أزال أجد ألم الطعام الذي أكلت بخيبر ، وهذا أوان وجدت انقطاع أبهري من ذلك السم ) رواه البخاري .

PYEM Ministry said...

Thanks David for the edit/update and also for manually adding the sources to the article. Now one wouldn't have to necessarily have to watch the video to understand the issue. Also now we can just copy/paste these sources easily into chatrooms. I think this is the end of Islam

1MoreMuslim said...

David Wood.

I heard you once say that Words could have figurative meanings. Have you changed your mind? Lol. welcome to Christian consistency!

This kind of posts would just make Arab Muslims laugh.
If you come across a gangster who tells you don't move or I cut your throat , don't worry if he has just a gun.


You should ask your friend Nabeel , if one could possibly feel literally an actual pain coming from his Aorta. Can one literally FEEL pain while his Aorta is being Literally cut off? What a joke!

Basically, David is saying that God says he would kill a prophet who makes lies against him, Muhammad PBUH died, so he must have told lies about God.

Do you teach in university David? Poor students!

Amazingly, When the prophet died, few companions were washing his body. One of them said You cut off my aorta ( expressing his deep sorrow.
too much effort in vain, or may I say: in Hell fire.

donna60 said...

Minoria,

You can't just claim that Jesus only "thought" He was dead, or that His disciples "thought" He was dead.

You have to provided documentation and evidence.

I can claim anything I want. I can claim that the tooth fairy visited me last night, but I can't provide evidence and documentation.

The historical records of Jesus' death is documented by not only His disciples, but by Romans as well.

"Consequently ... Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations. Called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberias at the hands of the Procurator Pontius Pilatus, and a deadly superstition, thus checked for a moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but also in the City." Annals (XV.44.2-8)Tacitus

There is absolutely no historical documentation in regards to Jesus, or His disciples "thinking He had died."

SGM said...

All honor and glory and praise be to our Lord, Savior and Redeemer Jesus Christ.

All the evidence that Muhammad is not a true prophet of the true God is actually found in the Islamic literature. All one has to do is open their eyes and see the evidence. However one can not see the truth if their eyes are blinded by Satan. It is funny that we don’t have to make up stories or point to Christian literature to prove that Muhammad is not a true prophet (though there is much material in the Bible that proves he is not a true prophet), but all the evidence is in Islamic literature. And folks like Mr. Osama rejects this evidence by simply stating that this is “Israelite Hadiths”.

@ Osama

I would like to ask a question of you. When anything is said or written against mohammad, e.g., Salman Rushdi wrote about Satanic versers, cartoons of Muhammad were drawn, Moslems around the world immediately want to kill that person and fatwas are rendered. Why is it that when your most respected scholars (your forefathers of Islam) write stuff, especially “Israelite Hadiths”, which makes mohammad the most despicable prophet, no Moslem says, DEATH to Sahih Bukhari, or Sahih Muslim. No Moslem goes out to burn these books.

I have not seen you give exegesis of any of the quranic verses, hadith and sira literature that David supplied in regards to proving what a miserable death mohammad faced.
Instead, you simply state that these are “Israelite Hadith”. Based on what logic and what reference do you think that these are Israelite Hadith. Can you please show us from that hidden Islamic encyclopedia (that no Christian is aware of) which proves these to be not authentic hadith. Can you show us that such and such jew made this up. I hear this lame excuse all the time from moslims regarding any hadith or Sira literature that proves mohammad is not a true prophet, that this is not authentic hadith. But base on what, some website like Kim believes. Or based on Mr. Osama who knows more then his own prophet and Islamic forefathers?
Or are you too ashamed to accept the reality?

May God have mercy on all Moslems who are truly looking for the truth which is only found in Lord Jesus Christ, John 1:17, “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

Radical Moderate said...

1milimeter

Are you saying like Shiek Osama that Mohamed did not die of the poison he recieved 3 years before?

Are you saying he did not die a martyrs death, but instead a old mans death in the bed of his child bride?

SGM said...

@ 1MoreMuslim,

Using your analogy, I would then say that Mohammad is the dumbest prophet of all time. When Allah told him, Qur’an 69:44-46—And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings, We would certainly have seized him by the right hand, then We would certainly have cut off his aorta. (Shakir)”, I would hope that Muhammad understood what it means that God would cut off his aorta. And what is dumb, that at the time of his death he would use the same language which Allah had told him earlier regarding cutting off his aorta. If Allah was using figurative words, then mohammad was using figurative words also? Correct? Why would mohammad use the same figurative words? Pretty dumb to prove himself a false prophet.

Just like your analogy of a gangster. He would be the dumbest gangster to say to cut some ones throat with a gun.

jonnykzj said...

@ALL CHRISTIANS

I've been reading alot on trinity tonight and I've come across the dilemma of which person in the trinity to pray to directly, the father, the son, the holy spirit or always all of them together? Here is a Christian article stating why one should only pray to the father in heaven for example:
http://www.bible-knowledge.com/pray-to-god-the-father-in-the-name-of-jesus/
NOTICE tht the Christian claims he's gotten numerous testimonies of Christians approaching this method to have more of their personal prayers answered.
NOW on the other hand Sam Shamoun in his rebutta to Zaatari claims one might as well pray to Jesus directly here:
http://www.bible-knowledge.com/pray-to-god-the-father-in-the-name-of-jesus/
NOW i have a few questions for you.
1) What do you have to say about these conflicting articles?
2) What do you say about praying to the Holy Spirit and if yes what if a Christian ONLY ever prayed in the name of the Holy Spirit all his life and never in Jesus or Father's name?
3) What if a Christian only prayed to the Father and never to the HS or Jesus?
and finally
4) What if a Christian only ever prayed to Jesus and never to the father or HS?

J.J.A. said...

1MoreMuslim: "Amazingly, When the prophet died, few companions were washing his body. One of them said You cut off my aorta ( expressing his deep sorrow."

And of course, you don't even provide a reference to back up your claim.

Do the Muslims who post comments here ever cite their sources or do they just make things up as they go?

Unknown said...

Muhammad suffered for years from the poison and at the end he died by his aorta being cut to prove he was a false prophet.

Truth Alone Triumphs said...

@ 1 More Muslim

I can understand the agony through which you are going.

Your extra ordinary mockery is giving me the impression that you are endeavoring to cover up your agony behind your words.

Have a heart dear.....It does happens.

Truth Alone Triumphs said...

@ Johnny

Sorry my friend......I do not think your cheap tricks of DEVIATING THE TOPIC in order to get rid of this dilemma will be working here.

If Brother David may wish to answer you either through visual or text, he can do so.

I by God's grace can also do the same but I won't since I am enjoying the humiliation of your's...

mkvine said...

David, you have utterly and completely destroyed Islam with one fatal blow at the jugular. Thank you for proclaiming the death of Muhammad. Keep up the great work. God Bless.

Sam said...

Johnnykzj, you didn't provide the correct link to my reply to Zaatari. Could you please do so.

Also, take a moment to read through this since this will answer most of your questions: http://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/hear-o-lord-praying-to-jesus-%e2%80%93-index/

taomeano said...

Kim
Your statement is very weak. Don't run away from your earliest sources.

jonnykzj said...

@ALL CHRISTIANS
AMAZING what i found here is Christians claiming that GOD IS A FAMILY AND WE CAN ALL BE PART OF THE GODHEAD, THE GODHEAD NOT BEING LIMITED TO THREE. The article uses Biblical references to show first how Jesus was NOT THE SON OF GOD BUT ONLY THE WORD BEFORE HE BECAME FLESH. Then it goes on USING THE BIBLE AGAIN to show how believers who accept Christ end up becoming part of the God Family. Last but not least they show AGAIN FROM THE BIBLE tht the HOLY SPIRIT IS THE POWER, NOT PERSON, OF GOD. READ IT PLZ N THEN TELL ME WHT U THINK:
http://www.thetrumpet.com/?page=book&q=1279.6.0.1

jonnykzj said...

@Truth Alone triumphs

Why do u n many other Christians here always assume ppl n in this case i'm playing a trick here? Im being serious and ive tried to contact david via email but have gotten no response. i wish i had his phone no so i cld discuss all these issues right now with him. it is very exciting for me to get as many answers as possible.

jonnykzj said...

@Sam

Thanku Sam. Ive been trying to contact u via email as well. Im hoping one day to have a phone conversation with u since im very excited to ask u alot of questions regarding trinity in particular. plz also inform me if uve articles rebutting http://www.thetrumpet.com/?page=book&q=1279.6.0.1

jonnykzj said...

@Sam
Sorry the correct link I believe is http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zaatari_honor_jesus.htm

Neverrepayevilwithevil said...

I can now see why it is so difficult for muslims to defend islam. Imagine a bullet ridden bucket full of water.. if you plug it on one hole, you make the force of water coming out from the other side greater. This is the dilemma of all muslims.That is why they get very angry and violent when you try to interrogate the religion. So much for the religion of "peace"
In my opinion, all those with the IT skills should ensure that this message and discussion go viral. Perhaps it may cause some logical minds out there to question their beliefs. Excellent and well articulated presentation once again by David. When are you coming to Canada?

Neverrepayevilwithevil said...

As you can see Jonnyjkz is just trying to fool around here. He knows his days as a muslim are numbered. He is now trying to use that same muslim deceptive nature of diverting attention from an obvious painful revelation. I dont think he understands the meaning of a blog. If he wants to discuss other issues, he should go and start his own blog. your cheap trick will not work here. Whatever happens we still love you, brother or is it sister?

Naren said...

Dear David,

All Hail... a beauty as always... love your humor and the well placed video clips.

The question that the Muslims raise is valid to some extent that how come any poison can act after 3 years. Ofcourse that proves your point that this was Muhammad's words and not ours.

But, to be practical, ofcourse Muhammad was nuts but the question still remains that Muhammad was died on account of poisoning three years after being poisoned at Khaiber.

Therefore, at this point, I am inclined to accept the Shia stand that Muhammad was systematically poisoned by Aisha... this theory then satisfies all the "tangents"


David, I am aware that the Shiahs do not accept the Sunni Hadiths and use the Najul Balagah (writings of Caliph Hussein) as their Hadiths. But, do you have any references to support the Shia theory that Muhammad was poisoned by Aisha?

Joke:
Muhammad on his deathbed to Aisha "My dear wife, I have to confess to you that I have had sex with your sisters, your servant girls and your friends"

Aisha: "It's ok, my dear husband... now relax and let the poison act"

In Christ


Naren

1MoreMuslim said...

People here are just dumb. You people have your eyes blind.

The Purple Marquise said...

@jonnykzj:

You wrote: "AMAZING what i found here is Christians claiming that GOD IS A FAMILY AND WE CAN ALL BE PART OF THE GODHEAD, THE GODHEAD NOT BEING LIMITED TO THREE. "

Jonny, if you are really sincere about your genuine curiosity about Christian doctrine it will do you good to not assume everything that you read online on some obscure websites or blogs is orthodox and mainstream Christianity.

The article you quoted is on thetrumped.com and that is an online associate of The Phladelphia Tumpet publication which belongs to an off shoot of a cultish sect called The Worldwide Church of God which started by a person called Herbert W. Armstrong in the 1930s. They had many rather bizarre doctrines and denying the Trinity and believing in God being an open ended family and Holy Spirit not a real person were just a few of them.

After the death of its founder the Worldwide Church of God's new leadership gave up some of these bizarre doctrines and became more mainstream although they are still not a legitimate Christian denomination. They now reject this view of the Trinity that you read in that article. But there are some off shoots of the original Church of God around like The Philadelphia Church of God (who owns the website you read that article on) which still stubbornly cling to these wrongheaded and unbiblical doctrines of Herbert Armstrong.

So we do not believe any of the nonsense that was written in that article about Trinity and the Holy Spirit and anyone who does is not a Christian anymore! I think all my Christian friends here would vouch for what I say so that you know this is not just my opinion.

Now stop fulfilling my prediction about Muslims always attacking the Doctrine of Trinity when they have no answers to our criticism of their religion and get to work. Defend your prophet if you can and if you can't be silent and start soul searching!

Sophie said...

"I feel that my aorta is being cut" does seem like a very strange thing to say.

I mean, I've never heard anyone say 'I have a pain in my aorta'. 'Pain in my chest' or 'pain in my heart', yes. 'Aorta' is too specific. He certainly said it in reference to physical pain, not mental anguish.

I think Muhammad was experiencing chest pains of some description and his "conscience" (such as it was) made him worried that it was God cutting his aorta, which is why he said it.

John said...

David, I get the impression that you allow a full debate on the issues you raise in your blog. If my impression is correct, good on you. That you allow this is, in my view even more important than the issues raised (in any case anyone can easily discern where a religion like Islam is coming from by the fruits of the religion). Other blogs that censor comments end up just peddling propaganda (Loonwatch for example). Before reading a blogger's posts I scan the comments btl to check if free discussion and debate is allowed on the point(s) raised - where there is none I don't give the blogger the courtesy of reading/listening to their post.

Keep up the good work.

Best Regards

John

The Purple Marquise said...

@1MoreMuslim said: "People here are just dumb. You people have your eyes blind."

Hey 1mm! Nice to see you back with your cogent arguments and rock solid logic!!! (tongue in cheek!!)

So are you already done with your linguistic research on the word Messiah? Are you ready to prove your brave new hypothesis about Messiah being "the one who wipes or is wiped of something"? When shall we call the press conference? When shall we start changing all of our dictionaries and encyclopedias on that account?

If you are not yet ready to prove your hypothesis then what are you doing here wasting your time, writing lame arguments and calling people names? You should be either busy in university libraries digging for some evidence to support your linguistic hypothesis or if you have already given up on it you should be now down at your local synagog trying to convince the Rabi to convert you to Judaism since you like the Jews and unlike Quran believe that Jesus was a failure as Messiah!

jonnykzj said...

@The Purple Marquise

Thanks for the response but they did back their arguments using the Bible. So isn't it only fair to then refute their claims using the Bible? OR is it not possible for Orthodox Christians to have had some misunderstandings or shortcomings regarding God's Nature?
ALSO id like to know what Christians BEFORE THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA believed about God's Nature and do we have records of that? Thanks again.

jonnykzj said...

@The Purple Marquise

BTW I SHLD MAKE IT CLEAR. IN NO WAY do i support the sunni/shia orthodox Muhammad. Im currently a Quran Alone Muslim and cld defend the Muhammad of the Quran who IMU has no resemblance to the one in hadith literature or very little at best. BUT even regarding him im not here to debate tht. i like it when ppl, christians or others, expose orthodox islam for wht it is, perhaps one of the worlds most dangerous ideologies.

Radical Moderate said...

What I find funny about his, is aht Osama and 1milimeter have responded just as I predicted. And in that response they not only throw their scholars under the buss but they throw their prophet into hell.

If mohamed did not die because of the Poision Kaibar then he did not die a martyr. Since he did not die a martyr then no JENNAH and Virgins for him.

jonnykzj said...

@Neverrepayevilwithevil AND ALL OTHER CHRISTIANS

I REJECT ALL HADITH besides the Quran so these accusations do not apply to me. YET i can agree with u shld i be more convinced of the Bible than the Quran i wld change my ideology once again. BUT AS OF NOW i stand out mor from the muslim cmmunity as do say the Mormons from Christians. SO IM NOT engaing in any deception whtsoever. I hope i made myself clear.

Samatar Mohamed said...

Johnny

As you continue your studies you will find it harder to believe that the fundamental consept of christianity is not even explained by Jesus(pbuh) himself. Nor does he explain that he has two natures etc... Also, as to the question of which nature of Jesus(pbuh) died on the cross, i find that christians always flip flop on this and i will explain what I mean. For example, Jay smith in a video against shabir ally said that God actually died on the cross and that he has no problem with that. Sam shamoun and David probably believe that only the human nature of Jesus (pbuh) died. And lastly, Dr. James white has mentioned in a video that Jesus(pbuh) did not die "MERELY" as a Man, or "MERELY" as a GOD, but as a MANGOD. That tells me that James is saying that both natures must have perished. I'll give you the youtube site to check up both Jay smith and James white saying that.

James white: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjpq468GpJI

From 5:00 to 5:30 in the clip

Jay smith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2KICP-2lnQ

from 4:00 to 5:00 in the clip

As you will see, when Jesus(pbuh) does not establish the trinity and his nature(s), then there is bound to be differences in their teachigs. Hope that helps a bit.

1MoreMuslim said...

Purple Marquise:

Words cannot be proven nor disproven. Can you prove to me that the word RUN means To RUN?
I have already refuted this post of David Wood in few words in my first comment ( the one that you didn't see).
Yes I believe that Jesus as a DAVIDIC messiah, and as portrayed in the NT is a failure. Both of his genealogies contains names of cursed ancestors. In addition to his failed prophecies about his death ( three days and three nights) that Christians try to clean with incredible gymnastics of words.

Kim said...

These people are not willing to do nonbiased research. All they do is follow whatever this blog says blindly lol. Its more effective if we Muslims prepare a refutation for every allegation on this blog on our own blogs.

It's amazing how small minded and closed most of you are, I have the feeling that you live your lives not religiously but hypocritically. All you do is try to cover Islam and using Christianity as your excuse to fight Islam. Using Christianity simply to start arguments with other religions to spark hate is the characteristic of arrogant hypocrites. I don't know why individually each of you are Christians but it is truly a shame to humanity in general. Im going to start my own blog simply for the purpose of destroying the attacks on my religion by the haters on this blog and perhaps other similar ones.

Peace.

MalbecMemoirs said...

You literally cut them off by the Aorta on this one. Nuff said.

minoria said...

Hello Donna,

I agree with you,Jesus did die,the man Jesus.He died just like we all die,the soul leaves the body,it is the soul that gives the body life.

But since Jesus was also God,not just a man,then his soul was the spirit of God the Son,which has always existed and always will.

Our soul is different,it began at a point in time.If God wants to,he can destroy it.God is a spirit,and God the Son could never die,that is to say God could never die.

Fernando said...

Hi jonnykzj...

its easy to see whate Christinas prior to the counv«cil of Neciea beliebed aboute the nature off God: you simply have to read the Bible and the fathers of the Church priour to thate date (321)...

anie more questions, please: juste presente them here...

Fernando said...

Hi 1mm... you argued aboutt the possibility the qur'an words and/or muhammad ones were methaforical...

lets putt aside the clear evidence thate the qur'an does nott aloww itself to be read in a metaphorical way...

we have 4 possibilities:

a) bothe sentences are not methaforical... then muhammad died due to G-d's actions refuting him of his claim off prophetwood;

b) bothe sentences are methaforical... then, and since a methafor as only a pair of correlations (the denotative and the conotative), muhammad died due to G-d's actions refuting him of his claim off prophetwood;

c) qur'ans words are methaforical (and we know theu cannot be), butt muhammad's ones are not... then muhammad (knowing as he didthe qur'ans sentence) made a lapsus lingae recognizing indirectedely he was nott a prophet;

d) qur'ans words are not methaforical, butt muhammad's one are... then muhammad is shear stupid since he used as a conotative lement one that in teh qur'an is used to deny his prophetwood...

in suma: a) muhammad is not a prophet; b) muhammad belived he was not a prophet; c) muhammad, as Osama the Great Abdalah, is shear stupid...

The Purple Marquise said...

onnykzj said:

"Thanks for the response but they did back their arguments using the Bible. So isn't it only fair to then refute their claims using the Bible? OR is it not possible for Orthodox Christians to have had some misunderstandings or shortcomings regarding God's Nature?
ALSO id like to know what Christians BEFORE THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA believed about God's Nature and do we have records of that? Thanks again."

Well... You are right! Fair enough! I should have explained to you why we consider the stuff in that article heretical. But let me tell you one thing from the start. Just because somebody mentions some verses of the Bible before proceeding to make a point it doesn't mean that necessarily he is "backing his arguments using the Bible" as you suggested. Any verse in the Bible first and foremost has to be viewed in light of the whole of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation in order to avoid any equivocation and wrong exegesis and also to avoid reading ones own unbiblical theories into the text.

That was basically what the writer of that Philadelphia Church of God and Herbert Armstrong and also all other cultists and Muslim apologist usually do. They quote a verse which on a superficial level might in some way allude to what they are trying to interpret out of it, but that very same verse in context of the whole Bible would be understood in a totally different way. Or they just sometime extrapolate from a verse which neither proves nor disproves their point to conclude that the verse somehow proves their point when the verse did no such thing! Just because some interpretations of a verse might include their theories it doesn't mean that it proves them.

Now I give you a few examples.Much did he make out of John1:1-4 not mentioning the Holy Spirit. He said: "Before the angels were created, before the universe or man were created,God and the Word existed. Two Personages are revealed in this earliest account in the Bible. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit!"
Now I think that's just lame. John here is introducing to the reader who Jesus is! He is not talking about who God is in general. But he is explaining the nature of Jesus Christ as The Incarnate Son of God and the Word of God. It is not necessary for him to talk about the Holy Spirit in this passage and therefore the absence of Holy Spirit in this passage cannot be in any way shape or form considered as evidence for He not being part of the Godhead or one of the persons of the Trinity. So the writer cannot use this verse to prove that the Holy Spirit is not a person of the Trinity. I hope you get my point. Besides then what is he going to do with all these other verses that shows that The Holy Spirit is a distinct person and is divine? Well... he just ignores them. Here are just a couple of examples from many instances:

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him. (Holy spirit separate from the Son of Man i.e. Jesus the second person of the trinity, and divine because you must not blaspheme agains Him)

Luke 12:12
for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.” (Again Holy Spirit separate from Jesus and doing things that a personal being does. Like teaching. Blind forces don't teach! Persons do!)

.....to be continued

The Purple Marquise said...

@jonnykzj: .......continuation

Then he makes a big deal out of the word Elohim even though actually many theologians consider it an evidence FOR the triunity of our God. They mean it is Trinity in Unity. Not separate gods as the writer of this article alluded.

Then he starts to pick on the word Son. He says that Jesus was not the Son before his incarnation but just the Word. Well... a case could be made for that and many mainstream theologians agree with the fact that the Sonship of Christ refers to His incarnation. But the WCG goes astray when he says that the persons in the Godhead (which he thinks is a duality of Just the Father and the Word) are separate Deities.

Well.... That flies in the face of thousands of years of Jewish monotheistic tradition and the words of the Bible itself: Deuteronomy 6:4, reads “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!”

In fact the Bible in no place teaches anything other than strict monotheism (not to be confused with unitarianism which Islam teaches) and that means that any references to The Son or The Word or The Holy Spirit or The Father should be understood in that light. That means it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG to think that the persons in the Godhead are different and separate deities!

....to be continued

The Purple Marquise said...

@jonnykzj.... continuation:

But then it starts to get really wacky when it starts to say that we human beings someday can become part of the Godhead!!!! He reads WAAAAYYYYY too much into Genesis 1:26: “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ….” Man oh man!!! He thinks this means we are potentially exactly like God. Just as animals procreate after their own kind. This is very silly exegesis. Not only again it flies in the face of 1000s of years of monotheistic tradition but also because it totally misrepresents the word "image and likeness"! An image or likeness of something(take a photograph for example) is not that thing itself! It is of a totally different substance than the thing itself but it bears a superficial resemblance to that thing and NEVER has the potential of becoming that thing itself. We resemble many aspects of God's character, like His creativity, His moral sensibilities, and many other characteristics that we share with Him. But like a picture in relation to the person to whom it belongs non of these characteristics have the potential to reach the hight and intensity of God's. We will always remain what we have always been, his image and his creation!

He makes a big deal out of the word "family" and "sons of God" and due to his earlier misunderstandings about the nature of God and the persons in the Godhead who are not separate deities and because he also read way too much unwarranted stuff into the words "image and likeness" there is nowhere for him to go from here except downhill. Pretty much everything which he wrote to the end of his article were predicated on these mistaken notions that I explained above and all the bible verses were mistakenly interpreted because of his above mentioned fundamental misunderstandings. Since he rejects monotheism which is very clearly taught in the Bible he thinks when the Bible calls us the saved "sons of God" it means we will be literally gods ourselves like real biological children who grow up to be just like their parents. But we are just images of god. We are NOT of his substance! We look like him in some ways but we are totally different stuff! So the sons of God when it is used in relation to us it is ONLY in relational sense and not in ontological sense. It means he will treat us as if we were His sons and He was our father. With the same closeness and love and kindness and joy.

Do you have any children, jonny? Do you know how it feels to love your child? I have one great little one! And I must say it is pure JOY to just look at her! I will do anything for her! Do you have a good relationship with your parents? Do you feel the love and joy of being in their presence? Do you know how it feels when you hold your little child in your arms and watch him or her love you back and cling to you with adoration and attachment? Have you ever experienced a very nice moment of total love and understanding with your earthly parents when they show their unconditional love for you and you feel just great to know how much they love you? Now imagine and keep in mind all of these emotions. God uses these earthly already familiar emotions and relationships to give us a glimpse of what heaven will be like! Non of this means literal and physical or ontological, just relational and emotional.

I hope that answered your questions with regards to that article. For more info on The Trinity read the great articles that are on Answering Islam website:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/index.html

The article bellow has even a brief historical review of the doctrine of Trinity which will answer your questions about the pre-Nicene records of the doctrine of the Trinity:

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/hartman/trinity_historic.html

.....to be continued

The Purple Marquise said...

@jonnykzj: ...Continuation

Now that I have answered your questions I hope in our next round I can ask you a few questions about your Quran only Islam. I hope that is OK with you.

In the very end I want to tell you something since I find you a more openminded person than these other people like 1MoreMuslim, Mahdi, Kim and Osama Abdallah.

I think concentrating too much on the intricacies of philosophical doctrines and details like that might make you miss the big picture of Christianity. I highly suggest instead of or at least along side reading articles here and there online read the Gospels and get to know the person of Jesus Christ. Try to understand Him and then compare him to the Jesus of the Quran.

Feel the difference and then if you still think these intricacies of doctrinal formulations are a stumbling block for you we will be here for you and more than happy to try to answer your questions as best we can. But I think the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it is is the best answer to all the questions of a truly seeking soul.
God Bless my friend!

search 4 truth said...

@ johnny

From Muslim.org

The Hadith is the source of the history of Islam. If we do not consider its reports to be reliable, we cannot believe with certainty that Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali -- may God be pleased with them -- were Companions of the Holy Prophet, who succeeded him in this order, and also died in this order. If Hadith is considered unreliable, then there is no evidence to definitely believe that these holy personages existed. It would be possible, in that case, that all these names were fictitious, and in fact there had not been an Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman or Ali, because according to Mr Ata Muhammad, the objector, all these traditions are isolated, and these names are not given in the Holy Quran. So according to this principle, they cannot be accepted as authentic. Similarly, the Holy Prophet Muhammad’s father having the name Abdullah, his mother having the name Amina, and his grandfather having the name Abdul Muttalib; one of his wives being called Khadija, one Aishah and one Hafsa, and his wet-nurse being called Halima; the Holy Prophet’s withdrawing to the cave of Hira for worship, the emigration of some of his Companions to Abyssinia, his staying in Makka for ten years after the Call, and then all those battles no mention of which is to be found in the Holy Quran -- all these facts are known only from Hadith. Should all of these be denied on the grounds that Hadith is not reliable? If this is true, Muslims would not be able to give any details of the life of the Holy Prophet, may peace and the blessings of God be upon him.

To believe, therefore, that no conclusive and authentic information can be found through Hadith, is to destroy much of Islam with one’s own hands. The true and correct position is that whatever has come through Hadith, unless contradicted by the Holy Quran in plain and clear words, must be accepted. For it is acknowledged that man by nature tells the truth, and resorts to falsehood only on account of some compulsion because it is not in his nature to do so.

simple_truth said...

1MoreMuslim said...

"People here are just dumb. You people have your eyes blind."

Instead of trying to make accusations against us, please show us where David erred in his presentation. All of the other issues that you are trying to raise are irrelevant at this time. If you want to address them, this is not the topic. Your lack of adequate attention to the topic at hand is duly noted.

taomeano said...

@ jonnykzj
Please stay on topic.

John 8:24 said...

1MM said: "People here are just dumb. You people have your eyes blind."

Any neutral person with a bit of sense can see by browsing through the comments who is dumb and blind. Osama, Mahdi and Kim were all demolished and now seem like, at least for a while, are shutting their mouths up. 1MM, you again threw another conjecture that "cutting of ioata" was not to be taken literal - again without any reference. SGM, JJA and Radical Moderate put you in your place. You don't respond to any of it but come back and say that people here are blind and dumb. Oh yeah!

Rale said...

@jonnykzj
I'm a student in Greek (Eastern) Orthodox theology. Feel free to contact me (click on my name) for a perspective on the Trinity based on the teaching of the Greek fathers and the Councils, I'd have a lot of remarks on your comments, but that's simply not the point of this post.

@David
Ibn Sa’d, Volume 2, pp. 251-252
There's a typo: "and I also though you would not have eaten it".

TAREK said...

Dear Dr. David and Brother Sam Shamoun I greet all in the PUREST NAME OF OUR SAVIOUR JESUS.
I just want to thank you for the video.

To Mr. Osama
Please come up with something that may not disgrace you. I have never heard of Jews hadeeth. Please mind what you write. All the tools used be Dr. David are authentic. If you want to reject this it means you are rejecting Muhammad himself. come Mr. Osama you can do better than all the rubbish you wrote, come on.............

To Kim
I did ask you last time to read and understand what you are reading, do not recite please Ms Kim, recitation will lead you to grave
Do not perish because of the family or friends or eaerthly things but look at where you will be after earth. JESUS HAS THE KEY Muhammad doesn't; he didn't even know where he will be. Please Ms Kim be brave and take a decision. MAY YAHWEH BE WITH you AMEN.

To 1lessmuslim: (1MM)
I think you are creating more problems to yourself with certain things that you are posting. I can read the signs of desperation, take it easy, search and make a move. Dr. David Brother Sam Shamoun and all the christians in and out of this blog love you we want to see you save.

To Ms Donna60:
On medical level there is a great possibility that we can take the same tablet for the same illness and it does work with A and does not with B. Now let us look at this case on the superficiality level. Remember that A in life is a strong person and B less strong comparing. A & B took the same poison and B died on the spot. There is great possibility A immunes have changed the poison from immediate to slow. Therefore it may take 3 to 10 years for for death to knock at A door. In some cases it could go up to 10 years if the individual is under medication. We had cases of this sort already Mme Donna60. If you want me to go into details I will find time and do so. And I am sure Dr. David knows this prety well that is why he did not bring this up. Time frame for his death does confirm all the evidences. In the time of A there was no medication of high quality

And to all the christians

Please use this video to minister to our fellow muslims and understang their situation please some are resisting because of family, friends properties ....etc you name it.

MAY THE LORD JESUS BE WITH us all and cover us with HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD AMEN

The Purple Marquise said...

@1 MoreMuslim:
You said: "Words cannot be proven nor disproven. Can you prove to me that the word RUN means To RUN? "

OH! REALLY??? Then watch this:

Merriam webster:

Definition of RUN
intransitive verb
1
a : to go faster than a walk; specifically : to go steadily by springing steps so that both feet leave the ground for an instant in each step

Dictionary online:

run verb, ran, run, run·ning, noun, adjective
verb (used without object)
1.
to go quickly by moving the legs more rapidly than at a walk and in such a manner that for an instant in each step all or both feet are off the ground.

Cambridge Dictionaries Online:
run
verb (running, ran, run)

Definition

[I or T] (of people and some animals) to move along, faster than walking, by taking quick steps in which each foot is lifted before the next foot touches the ground
[+ to infinitive] The children had to run to keep up with their father.
I can run a mile in 5 minutes.
The sheep ran away/off in fright.
A little girl ran up to (= came quickly beside) me, crying for her daddy.
Are you running against each other or against the clock?
The first two races will be run (off) (= will happen) in 20 minutes.

[T] If you run an animal in a race, you cause it to take part
Thompson Stables are running three horses in the next race.

[I + adverb or preposition] to go quickly or in a hurry
Would you run round to the post office and get me some stamps?
You don't put on weight when you spend all day running round after small children.

The Free Dictionary:
run  (rn)
v. ran (rn), run, run·ning, runs
v.intr.
1.
a. To move swiftly on foot so that both feet leave the ground during each stride.
b. To move at a fast gallop. Used of a horse.

...to be continued

The Purple Marquise said...

@1MoreMuslim: .......continuation

And now watch this:

Merriam Webster:

Definition of MESSIAH
1
capitalized

a : the expected king and deliverer of the Jews

b : jesus 1
2
: a professed or accepted leader of some hope or cause

Dictionary.com

Mes·si·ah  [mi-sahy-uh] Show IPA
noun
1.
the promised and expected deliverer of the Jewish people.
2.
Jesus Christ, regarded by Christians as fulfilling this promise and expectation. John 4:25, 26.
3.
(usually lowercase) any expected deliverer.
4.
(usually lowercase) a zealous leader of some cause or project.
5.
(italics) an oratorio (1742) by George Frideric Handel.

Cambridge Dictionaries Online:
messiah
noun

Definition
a leader who is believed to have the power to solve the world's problems
An ordinary priest, he was hailed by thousands as the new messiah

The Free Dictionary:

Mes·si·ah  (m-s)
n.
1. also Mes·si·as (m-ss) The anticipated savior of the Jews.
2. also Messias Christianity Jesus.
3. messiah One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator.

Oxford Dictionaries:
messiah

Pronunciation:
/mɪˈsʌɪə/

noun
• 1 (the Messiah) the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
• Jesus regarded by Christians as the Messiah of the Hebrew prophecies and the saviour of humankind.
• 2 a leader regarded as the saviour of a particular country, group, or cause:the club’s supporters have been tempted to regard him as a messiah rather than a manager

Webster Dictionary Online:
Mes`si´ah
n.
1.
The expected king and deliverer of the Hebrews; the Savior; Christ.
And told them the Messiah now was born.
- Milton.
WordNet Dictionary
Noun
1.
messiah - any expected deliverer
Synonyms: christ

2.
Messiah - Jesus Christ; considered by Christians to be the promised deliverer

3.
Messiah - the awaited king of the Jews; the promised and expected deliverer of the Jewish people
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well 1MM I could prove to you what "Run" means run. In addition I could also demonstrate to you that there is no Messiah known to mainstream dictionaries which means "the one who wipes" or "is wiped". If I am missing something and there is a usage or the word Messiah somewhere hidden in some ancient dictionaries or used in ancient literature which only means "wiper" or "wiped" bring that forth otherwise I guess you really have no choice but to convert to Judaism because they are the ONLY ones of us Jews, Muslims, and Christians who agree with you that Jesus was a failure as Messiah!

Neverrepayevilwithevil said...

Its either jonnykzj is truly seeking answers or is just being plain ignorant. In his post he talked about changing his ideology, but we are not talking about islam which is obviously a political ideology....that is why it does not allow room for dissent. On the other hand Chrisitianity is a relationship through our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. Despite all the many stated shortcomings of the prophet of islam.... you are still hell bent on following same. That is simply blind loyalty. You do not have to be too emotional about these evidences. Let us reason together as the bible says. Maybe if you can think for yourself someday soon, you will find that the Truth you have been seeking has always been so near. Peace

jonnykzj said...

@Rale N ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN WHO HAS A GOD GRASP OF TRINITY
Add me in skype. my id there is "idmkhizar".

jonnykzj said...

@ALL CHRISTIANS


FINALLY ive found an explanation of trinity that actually made some sense to me. I quote from C.S. Lewis:
"A world of one dimension would be a straight line. In a two-dimensional word, you still get straight lines, but many lines make one figure. In a three-dimensional world, you still get figures but many figures make one solid body. In other words, as you advance to more real and more complicated levels, you do not leave behind you the things you found on the simpler levels: you still have them, but combined in new ways--in ways you could not imagine if you knew only the simpler levels.

NOW the Christian account of God involves just the same(or perhaps similar) principle. The human level is a simple and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings- just as in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. [MERE CHRISTIANITY p. 137-138]

This also debunks some Christians who ive read used Conjoined Twins as an analogy to trinity. ALSO wld all Christians here agree that God HAS ONLY ONE MIND n hence is not three distinct conscious/self aware entities with minds of their own but tht each of the three persons is also fully aware of the other and also in complete harmony with each other?

jonnykzj said...

@Samatar Mohamed

Interesting, ill take note of tht. White also seems to use the phrase "the three SHARE the same essence" instead of wht ive heard from others tht simply "the three HAVE the same essence" so as to NOT make it appear tht they are physically OR EVEN IN MIND N THGHT DISTINCT. So White cld be wrong here and the concept still turn out to be correct.

jonnykzj said...

@search 4 truth

Exactly and as a Quran Alone believer i dont know if uthman, abu bakr, abdullah, etc r fictitious or not and it is irrelevant for most Ahlul Quran anyways. however as i said even tht stance of Quran Alone cld be shown wrong to me if powerful evidence arises to me in favor of christianity.

jonnykzj said...

@Neverrepayevilwithevil

Actually as a Quran Alone beleiver i do NOT follow the same Muhammad BUT EVEN THEN im open tht even tht Muhammad of Quran Alone as i understand it is not true. THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN, so to speak, FORME wld be either a) A Christian can demonstrate that only he/she by the the power of God is resistent to any kind of magic in the world and not the skeptics whore mostly atheists/agnistics as well. if not an individual chrisian than a statistic of a grp of christians clearly standing out in their resistance above magicians via statsistics OR b) show tht Christian using prayer can obtain a better grasp of the real world compared to any other grp n hence passing general knoweldge tests n logical tests with signficantly higher scores than atheists/agnostics in particular, as the control grp, but also other religious grps.

Baron Eddie said...

listen up guys ...

let's talk about the Trinity!

How about Nicene council! ...

but wait what about Jesus' nature

OK what you think about this video on Youtube ...

Oh, This kind of posts would just make Arab Muslims laugh.

Please, talk about anything else But the ... the Aorta thing!

Actually, I checked the Arab Muslims sites and they were not laughing but they are requesting to get rid of these sources !

Sophie said...

It's interesting how theological points that matter to Muslims don't seem to matter much to Christians, and vice versa. It stems from two very different understandings of God.

I'm not sure that the question 'did Jesus die as a man or as God?' makes much sense. As I understand it, we all die as people but our spirits are eternal. Jesus said 'Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit' as He died. That means His physical body died(the first death) but His spirit went on. Jesus was what He was - man and god. His human,earthly, flesh-and-blood body was raised up and became a perfect spiritual body, as all the saint's bodies will, because God will make people's bodies perfect when they have the righteousness and redemption of Christ. There's no dividing line running down the centre of Jesus making Him half man half God. That's why some people find Christianity so shockingly blasphemous, 'but to us who are being saved it is the power of God' (1 Cor 1:18). The implications are enormous.

The Purple Marquise said...

Baron Eddie: Yes you are right! We should quit talking about the Trinity. I knew this would happen but I myself plead guilty of falling into the Muslim's trap and starting to post about the Trinity.

You said: "Actually, I checked the Arab Muslims sites and they were not laughing but they are requesting to get rid of these sources !"

Wow! Really?! That sounds incredible! Could you tell us a bit more? Are these websites in Arabic? It is fascinating to know what the Muslims are saying about this video amongst themselves when they are not confronting us trying to show brave face despite deep inner embarrassment. So let us know if you know more of their reactions. Thanks!

kiwimac said...

@jonnykzj- There are some fantastic articles about the Trinity on Sam Shamoun's site 'Answering-Islam.org'. In fact it has great articles on all of Christian doctrine! This is from my evidence Bible:
The Trinity at Work-
1)Incarnation-The Father incarnated the Son in the Womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35)
2)Baptism- The Spirit descended on the Son,and the Father spoke his approval from heaven ( Matthew 3:14-17)
3)Public Ministry- The Father anointed the Son with the Spirit(Acts 10:38)
4) The Crucifixion- Jesus offers himself to the Father through the Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)
5)The Resurrection- The Father resurrected the Son by the Spirit (Acts 2:32 and Romans 1:4)
6)Pentecost- From the Father the Son received the Spirit, whom he then poured out on his Disciples (Acts 2:33)

jonnykzj said...

@ALL CHRISTIANS

Sorry i just had to bring this up. I remember some apologists, cant say for sure it was "Sam Shamoun", but have heard this from many that God refers to Himself as Us as indicative of Him being plural in persons. But shldnt this then also mean that we shldnt find in the Bible, if true, God ever claiming something like "There is no saviour ME" for the term "me" is singular person and hence this wld imply that only this person of God talking at that time can save and not the other persons? What do you say?

jonnykzj said...

@Kiwimac
thanks for the references

Deleting said...

Did 1mm and kim decide to put their brains together on this one?

Interesting what we'll see.
1mm...Jesus's lineage is less than perfect??
Mohammad's real name was Kthum which meanings rotting food.

As for Jesus' linage....Zechariah 12:12 came over three hundred years before christs birth and guess what...it names which of David's son's he was being born of. Nathan.

jonnykzj said...

@Sam and all Christians

I need to understand why God, AS BEING, can also be addressed as "HE", a term used for third PERSON SINGULAR, whilst referring to the ENTIRE BEING i.e. son, father and holy spirit?
Even if one accepts the trinity would it then not be somewht inaccurate to describe father, son and holy spirit as "persons" instead os some other term like say "distinct eternal roles" or something which can as a combination then be referred to as "He".
NOTE that i commend Sam for pointing out a very important factor that no "person" in the trinity of the trinity can act independent of another n thus does not have a mind of his own. THIS renders many Christians comparison of humans all being one being yet distinguished by "personhood" as an analogy to the trinity utterly fallacious for no two humans are absolutely in harmony and always act somewht independent of the other.
Even the same essence argument fails for what then would one say of e.g. Zeus, Apollo and Poseidon? Clearly these are three persons BUT all three are also said to be divine in nature and thus can be said to share the same essence. Can one thus say they're one though? Christians wld surely argue no, BUT WITHOUT SAM'S HARMONY ARGUMENT, n interdependency and even the simultaneity within the trinity, THIS CRUCIAL DISTINCTION WLD BE LACKING. Christians MUST bring this up in debates when they wanna make a logical argument for trinity being monotheistic.

Baron Eddie said...

The Purple Marquise : I was refering to Arabic website that is talking about these Surahs and Tafsirs that David mentioned ...

You can use Google translate to translate the whole page from Arabic to English ...

Here is an example

Go to

http://translate.google.com/#ar|en|

and now copy this address which is in Arabic

http://www.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=50756

and paste it in the left side
you will get an address on the right side

Click that and it will give you a basic idea about the topic

This was an example on how Arabic website hide some information from English or any language eyes ...

If you look at the top of that page there is a button (English) and if you click it you get totally something different from what the topic is ...

I wonder why is that ...

Like David said Wa ha ha

That page showing a Muslim man was surprised to find out that Mohammed died from poison

He was taught that he died from fever ...

They answered him by giving the same Surah that David gave here

Wa ha ha ... again

Zack_Tiang said...

Jonnykzj,

You can draw ten to hundreds of different 2D drawings of the same person, and yet, all those drawings will never fully or completely comprehend the person, whom you drew of.

Same for any analogy that we use in this physical, created world.
Can a living human being ever be fully comprehended by studying a non-living statue of a human being? Or a soul-less, animated robot?

Radical Moderate said...

@1milimeter

Yuo wrote...

"1mm...Jesus's lineage is less than perfect?? "

Thats right his liniage comes from 2 prostitutes that I know of possibly three, he comes from the nobles and the low. In his humanity he represents us ALL and we are blessed by it.

See 1milimeter you have a problem your God can only guide the "RIGHTLY GUIDED". Your GOd can only save the rightious.

But the one true living GOD guides the wicked to repentence, he saves the sinner, not becasue the sinner decided to change his ways, but becasue GOD has called him to change his ways. My GOD CAN NOT BE REFUSED your god well he can be refused and rejected.

1milimeter and all the other Muslims aks yourself "ARE YOU AS RIGHTIOUS AS NOAH, ARE YOU AS PURE AS LOT?"

Zack_Tiang said...

Jonnykzj, (Continued)

With that understanding of the limitations we face when describing God with analogies from the physical, created world, then keep in mind that no analogy is to be taken as 100% accurate from every perspective.

Example:
Water can 'manifest' in three different separate forms; liquid, solid, gas... and yet share/have the same 'essence', i.e. H2O.
But that doesn't mean that the Triune God of Christians transits from one form to the other, like water transits from liquid to solid or gas and vice versa.

Zack_Tiang said...

Jonnykzj,

And regarding God saying 'I'/'He'/'We', it really doesn't matter whether God uses the singular 'I' or 'He' or the plural 'We', with regards to what He can do...

It is the same as a policeman saying "I have the authority to arrest you."
And yet, it doesn't mean that this is the ONLY policeman that has such authority or capability as compared to all other policemen.

Thus, when God says, "There is no saviour but ME". God is alluding to the fact that there is no other, to whom we can turn to, to be saved except God and only God.
And since the Son and the Holy Spirit are both divine and fully God, they too are encompassed in that statement of God's.

----

Love to try my best to discuss about the Trinity doctrine or share how I understand it...
But this would be really straying further away from the post.

But I do hope you keep in mind what I have shared so far, when it comes to analogy to describe God in any way.

Deleting said...

Johnny,

If I'm wrong Nakdimon please correct me. I only learned this recently myself
Shema (Hear) Y'Israel (O Israel) YHWH Elohinu (The LORD is your God) YHWH Ehad (The LORD is one).
Ehad is used in a collective oneness as in oneness of BEING and NOT PERSON.
IF YHWH wanted to express himself as oneness of person, he would use YeChid...which refers to a singular oneness of person.
The term used in all the Torah manuscripts (the torah is what you muslims are required to believe in) says EHAD in the Shema Y'Israel.

minoria said...

Hello Johnny,

The Trinity can be defended on the basis of mathematical laws(which are 100% true even if they seem illogical),
based on the Triple Point in Chemistry,etc.Read:

http://www.dieucafe.com/2011/10/14/la-trinite-expliquee-par-la-mathematiquela-chimiepar-jesus-dans-une-vision-et-par-le-triangle/

You can translate using Google Translate:

http://translate.google.com/

minoria said...

Hello Johnny,

Here is an article by me that shows where and WHY according to JEWISH thinking Jesus announces the TRINITY (in Matthew,at the end):

http://www.avraidire.com/2010/10/jesus-a-annonce-la-trinite-dans-levangile/

You can translate with:

http://translate.google.com/

Sam said...

This is for Deleting.

Let me address your question regarding echad versus yachid. It is not true that the use of yachid would rule out or undermine the fact of God being Triune in nature, nor does the word itself NECESSARILY refer to a singular person. Rather, the word yachid carries the meaning of uniqueness, one of a kind. As such, it can be used of God since he is the only one of his kind, utterly unique and distinct from his creation.

Secondly, it is also not true that echad NECESSARILY points to a plurality in unity, or to a singular being, as opposed to a singular person. Echad functions much like our English word one, and can refer to a composite or compound unity or even to a singular person. It is the context that will determine whether echad is used to affirm a plurality in unity or a singularity.

For instance, here is a text which uses echad for a singular person:

"Son of man, the inhabitants of these waste places in the land of Israel keep saying, 'Abraham was only one (echad) man, yet he got possession of the land; but we are many; the land is surely given us to possess.'" Ezekiel 33:24

Notice how Abraham is said to be an echad.

I hope this helps.
Sam

Sam said...

This is to Johnnyk. I already addressed your questions in the following articles:

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/dialogue_thabiti_2.html

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/plurality1.htm

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/plurality2.htm

Please take the time to read them. Thanks.
Sam

Samatar Mohamed said...

Minoria

If the triple point shows that the trinity exists, then you should have a look at some of the numerical miracles in the Quran.

1. The Quran says adam(pbuh) is like jesus(pbuh)(both do not have a father), and both are mentioned in the quran 25 times.

2. Women and men are also both metioned 24 times in the noble quran.

3. This life and the hereafter (opposites or antonyms of each other) are both mentioned 115 times in the quran.

4. The angel and devil (opposites of each other) are both mentioned 68 times in the Quran.


5. The Quran mentions day 365 times exactly.

6. Also, the contrast between dry land and sea. Land is mentioned 13 times, while sea is shown 32 times. It so happens that 13/32 is the approximate ratio of land to see in our planet earth.

I'm sure you will just brush these aside as something that happened by chance, but then you would have to be consistent and brush aside your triple point showing trinity example.

Baron Eddie said...

Guys ... don't bother explaining Trinty ... they won't believe it

If Muslims don't believe their own books then how would they believe ours ...

Muslim Clerics brain washing poor Muslims from youth that Mohammed is the best man/rasool ever and ever ...

Simple question to all Muslims ...

Allah wrote Quran in Arabic and any translation is not Quran ...

Whay Allah made me (Kafir according to Islam) read Quran in Arabic but you Muslims don't know how to read Arabic ...

Allah khair Al-Makreen
الله خير الماكرين
Allah is the best deceiver

J.J.A. said...

1MoreMuslim: "I have already refuted this post of David Wood in few words in my first comment."

You may have offered a response to his video, but you most certainly haven't refuted it.

1MoreMuslim: "Yes I believe that Jesus as a DAVIDIC messiah, and as portrayed in the NT is a failure. Both of his genealogies contains names of cursed ancestors."

You believe that Jesus was the Davidic Messiah based on what? The "corrupt" Bible or the "infallible" Qur'an?

As for the genealogies provided in the gospel narratives, which names from the genealogy that Luke provided are the names of cursed ancestors? Can you even name one?

J.J.A. said...

TAREK to Osama: "Please come up with something that may not disgrace you. I have never heard of Jews hadeeth."

I believe Osama is referring to the Isra'iliyat narrations which originate from the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Sam said...

This is also for Deleting. Genesis 22:2 and 12 are examples of how yachid doesn't necessarily refer to one and only in the sense of a singularity. These texts call Isaac Abraham's yachid, or one and only son. Now this surely cannot mean that Abraham had no other child since Ishmael was born before Isaac.

The meaning must be that Isaac was unique, the only one of his kind. This is supported by Hebrews 11:17 where Isaac is called Abraham's monogenes, which is the same word John uses to describe Jesus as God's one and only Son in John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18 and 1 John 4:9. Jesus, like Isaac, is the only Son of his kind.

I hope this helps.

jonnykzj said...

THANKS Sam, Minora, Zack thiang n all who contributed. ill go through wht uve pted out.

jonnykzj said...

@Zack tiang

The water example as you yourself noted is not that accurate 1) coz of the transformations which u mentioned and 2) the three NOT being interdependent on each other. THIS is crucial for the trinity to make sense coz rem i gave the example of Zeus, Poseidon and Apollo being three persons yet having one divine essence? So can one now say the Greeks who worshiped these are monotheists as well? NOT if they, those gods, lacked ABSOLUTE HARMONY with each other all carrying one mind i.e. same intentions, motives, etc like is said for the trinity. WITH THT said the complex example of higher dimensions indicated how at such high level distinct personalities/roles MERGE or are superimposed upon each other(all being inside the other at the same time etc) and hence are all interdependent which wld be very much, even if not 100%, inline with the trinity.

Royal Son said...

Samatar said:

1. The Quran says adam(pbuh) is like jesus(pbuh)(both do not have a father), and both are mentioned in the quran 25 times.

My response:

Actually no: The name Aaeesa appears in the Qur'an only 19 times.

Now sir. I will concede that the "miracle" does occur in the Qur'an, in the PICKTHALL TRANSLATION. So let me ask you. Is the Pickthall English miraculously superior to the Arabic? You are the one who brought this matter up so I will be interested in your response.

Samatar said:

2. Women and men are also both metioned 24 times in the noble quran.

My response:

Since Pickthall is the miraculous translation (as per claim #1) we search it to find the following:

Search Results Found for woman: 14

Wait a minute! 14 ? Oh I know what I did wrong! It should be women, right ? Let's try that again:

Search Results Found for women: 110

Oh dear! That's a tad more than 24 isn't it. But wait ! I've discovered another miracle of the Pickthall translation! If you combine the results for 'woman' with those for 'women' you get 124, that is exactly 100 more results than Samatar claimed. That must mean that the Qur'an is 100% true right? Or wait, does it mean it's 100% false, I can't remember.

Now how about if we search for men:
Search Results Found for men: 193

Oh dear. Not much luck on that front either.

HOWEVER!!! I did notice that if you actually search for 'men' without any care for where it is found, and include results such as "argument" then you actually end up with the number 265. Now if you combine that with the excess number of results in the women+woman search (100), you get 265 + 100 which equals 365! Now that is amazing people! How could a mere man come up with the exact number of days in a year in an English translation combining excess results with irrelevant results. All I can say is WHAT A MIRACLE!

I'm out of breath and I've only found myself through 2 points of Samatar. Jolly good show ol' chap. Now I need a rest.

tiwas said...

Hi, first time commenting here.

@ Samatar
What Minoria wrote in the article was explaining some models for the Trinity.

If you've actually read the site given, it doesn't even talk about numerical miracles nor does it appeal to numerical miracles from the Bible.

So, why did you alluded them with the so-called numerical miracles from the Quran?

And wasn't this topic about Muhammad?

Rale said...

@Samatar Mohamed
Enjoy:

http://www.biblemaths.com/

http://www.breadoflifebiblestudy.com/Lessons/29BibleNumerology/Articles/Seven01.pdf

Here is a refutation of some of your claims:

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/numerical_miracles_309.html

There was a time when I used to believe in numerical miracles too :-) I spent almost one entire night checking the claims of my second link. I was so amazed coz it was all working out perfectly! When I discovered that there are such claims in other books I realized that I have to rely on something else to prove that my religion is true.

I think that both Christians and Muslims should stop bringing up so-called numerical and scientific "miracles" (especially Muslims) and focus on theological, historical, and ethical facts.

Here are especially the reasons why I think the Muslims should stop doing that:

1- What about the previous generations that didn't have the scientific data available? Does that mean that Islam was less reliable at the time.
2- What about the clear statements that are totally wrong (semen originating between ribs and backbone...)? (See David's and Nabeel's debates on this topic)
3- Why do muslim apologist always have to twist the meaning of the verses to obtain a "miracle"?
4- If the "miracles" are supposed to be a proof for Islam, why don't we then find clear statements like "the earth is revolving around the sun"... that everyone would believe in?
5- Why do muslim apologists always have to bring up those issues in debates? Does that mean that the Qur'an isn't theologically and historically sound enough that you always have to find something else to try to convince us?
6- What about the supposed "miracles" in other holy books (for instance the scientific and numerical miracles of the Bible)?
7- If a religion doesn't make sense to me, should I believe in it just because of those claims? of course not!
8- Finally, who tells me that it's really God who's inspiring those things, if there is anything miraculous out there? Satan certainly knows all of those things too.

jonnykzj said...

@Sam
You mention at one place in your first article "YHWH INVOLVED His Spirit". With tht said wld it be ok for a Christian to say "YHWH invoked the father" OR "YHWH received the father" or even "YHWH involved the Father"?
ALSO if say a Christian sepends his entire life foscussing only one one Person of God say the Holy Sprit and rays exclusively to That, would he still be under as much grace as other Christians IYO? thnks.

Rale said...

The Messiah is supposed to rule for ever:

"But my mercy I will not take away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before my face. And your house shall be faithful, and your kingdom for ever before your face, and your throne shall be firm FOR EVER." (2 Sam 7 15-16)

"For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace. His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth AND FOR EVER: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this." (Is 9 6-7)

And this finds exactly its fulfillment in the Jesus of the Gospels:
"He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob FOR EVER. And of his kingdom there shall be NO END." (Luke 1 32-33)

That's why we Christians don't need any one after Jesus!

1MoreMuslim: "Yes I believe that Jesus as a DAVIDIC messiah and as portrayed in the NT is a failure."
Almost 1/3 of the earth's population believe in our Jesus as the Lord. What a failure!!!
Isa's legacy is a "false" and "corrupted" religion that claims more followers than Islam. What a success!!!
BTW, David an interesting article on this subject on AI.

jonnykzj said...

AFTER reading the following article abt "divorce rights" Christianity started to make more sense to me. Notiec how it is argued that divorce is not only allowed in case of SEXUAL immorality, since the Greek term "moicheia” defined, "adultery" is NOT USED in Matthew 19:9. So there cld be other just causes for divorce apart from adultery. Here's the entire article. Tell me wht u think:
http://christiandivorce.1hwy.com/

hugh watt said...

jonnykzj

"Im currently a Quran Alone Muslim and cld defend the Muhammad of the Quran who IMU has no resemblance to the one in hadith literature or very little at best."

Can you then prove from the Quran alone that Muhammad was a prophet?

Rale said...

@minoria

The analogy in the vision mentionned in the article:

http://www.dieucafe.com/2011/10/14/la-trinite-expliquee-par-la-mathematiquela-chimiepar-jesus-dans-une-vision-et-par-le-triangle/

is exactly the same as the one used by saint Cyril, missionary among the slavs with his brother st Methodius in the 9th century, while engaging with Muslims about the Trinity!

hugh watt said...

1MM

"Yes I believe that Jesus as a DAVIDIC messiah, and as portrayed in the NT is a failure. Both of his genealogies contains names of cursed ancestors.

And Muhammad's ancestors? Were they all perfect like Islam claim Muhammad to be?

jonnykzj said...

@Sam

Sorry to bother u again but I ALMOST FORGOT to ask you this important question.
We all know the verse "...I(Jesus) can of myself do nothing," and it continues to say that he does only as he sees the father doing. NOW i understand this is interpreted by you that Jesus cannot act indepedent of the Father i.e. he doesnt have a mind/will of his own which is perfectly fine. BUT THIS SEEMS, AT LEAST TO ME, to also imply THAT THE FATHER COULD DO ANYTHING ON HIS OWN AND/OR THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONE WHO IS THE MASTERMIND OR THE MIND BEHIND ALL THREE WITHIN THE GODHEAD. Is there a verse in the Bible that indicates that the Father can also not do anything without the Son?

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Rale

My point in bringing up these numerical examples was to explain to minoria that the triple point explaining trinity is not sufficient in any means. I brought up those numerical verses only to show minoria that what she caals a scientific miracle explaining the trinity, I could also bring a numerical miracle for the quran, It was just to refute minoria's point. Read my post again and you will see.

jonnykzj said...

@Hugh Watt

I can show(dont like to use the term prove which is best reserved for mathematic) from the Quran the phrase "muhammadurasoolullah" meaning "muhammad is the messenger of God". so if one accepts that messenger and prophet are synonomous, then this follows automatically. i dont, sinec IMU not every messenger is a prophet, but thts another story. so id say i cld definitely show he WAS a messenger.

Samatar Mohamed said...

Also, back to the point on Allah (swt) punishing Muhammad (pbuh) by severing his aorta, if you read the Quranic verse again, you will see that Allah (swt) says that he would first "Sieze" the prophet, then cut of his aorta. And, as you can see, Muhammad (pbuh)was not seized at all. And i think that the poison killing Muhammad (pbuh) has been refured. Now it is possible that the poison could have killed him later, but i think it would be more probable that he could have died from illness. After all, he was a 63 year old man who could have gotten ill and died which is much more likely. And bishr is our best example, because the poison killed him instantly, showing me that the poison was to supposed to take immediate effects rather than a slow deat, and probability of the poison slowly killing the prophet is highly unlikely.

kiwimac said...

jonnykzj- Jesus Christ taught us to pray to the Father as he prayed to the Father. He also taught us to pray continually- not 5 prayers a day and not in public but in private and from our hearts! Lloyd John Ogilvie in his book on Prayer say's, 'Long before we talk to God, He talks to us. He calls us into conversation- It is through Christ,the Mediator, that we are called to prayer. Nothing is so healing and empowering as the quiet,uninterrupted communication with God through his Son and inspired by his Spirit"
Maybe your questions and desire to understand Christianity are a result of God desiring to have a conversation with you too?

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Samater.

But your example to refute her was fallacious. It was not accurate. So your point is mute! If they had been accurate you may have had a leg to stand on. But you go to Islamic websites read and regurgitate propaganda without checking. Islamic sources are full of deceit. Always check, especially Islamic sources. More often than not it is exactly the opposite of the truth!

jonnykzj said...

@All Christians

Isn't one of the definitions of God besides Omnipotence, Omniscience, etc also "That Consciousness of WHOM NO HIGHER STATUS CAN BE THOUGHT OF"? I would've thought so. But then we have a problem with trinity AT LEAST as it is commonly defined.
Have you ever considered the following?
Is it possible that the Father is the only REAL Person in the trinity WITH A MIND OF HIS OWN whilst the other two Persons, granted being completely Divine in essence, are either 1) VIRTUAL PERSONS ANIMATED BY THE FATHER IN ETERNITY OR 2) real as far as their distinct spiritual structure goes, but generated by the Father in eternity and containing SOLELY the Consciousness of the Father?
Both views dont seem to contradict any verses of the Bible as far as I can tell. But 1) i.e. VIRTUAL seems to be more inline since one cld argue that Jesus' praying to the Father indicates at least a virtual display of him possessing self awareness/self identification. On the other hand even if one were to argue for distinct self awareness, these MUST BE AT LEAST SUPERIMPOSED ANYWAYS since the NT also claims that they're all WITHIN ONE ANOTHER.
1) also solves the initial probem of only the Real Self Awareness with highest status being God.
This would also line up with one of the earlier websites i quoted where a Christian claims that one should only pray directly to the father BUT MAY PRAY THROUGH JESUS AND GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, and the ones who did such according to tht Christian had more of their prayers answered.
Wht do you say?

hugh watt said...

jonnykzj

Mormons claim Joseph Smith to be a prophet. Muslims say the same for Muhammad. If Mormons were to apply your criteria to Smith then I'd have to conclude he was a prophet.
Would you accept this or would you seek other evidence?

No, prove is the correct word for proof is what gives credence to such a claim.

Let me offer an example:

A C.O.P pulls you over for driving erratically and asks you to produce your drivers license. You pull out the license and hand it to him. He looks at it then looks back at you and says: 'This looks like someone older than you. Do you have any other documents to prove this is you?'

You say: 'But it says it right there that it's me.'

See the C.O.P is not interested in what you showed him, he wants proof that you are who you and the license claim you to be.

Now, how do you go about proving that Muhammad was a prophet by showing what some words say in the Koran? It would be expected to see "muhammadurasoolullah" in the Koran as it would be expected to see Smith called a prophet in Mormon writings. Please do not say we should either believe it or not because this would be no more intelligent than accepting Mormon claims. Bear in mind also that this is a matter of eternal consequences.

So, prove from the Koran that Muhammad was the prophet Allah, Islam and Muslims claim him to be. People have been and are being put to the sword over this so before my neck is put on the line I ask you in Muslim kindness as someone who does not want the people you are currently interacting with to go to Hell-Fire prove Muhammad's prophethood from the Koran alone.

jonnykzj said...

@All Christians

Has anyone ever read about "pi" and "euler's" nos being derived from Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 EACH TO FOUR SIGNIFICANT FIGS USING THE EXACT SAME FORMULA IN BOTH CASES. This indeed astounded me even years ago especially noting the fact that both verses begin with "In the beginning" and also knowing "pi" and "e" are the most prominent and most used constants in mathematics. Here it is:
First read:
http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/appendix_02.htm
then:
http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/First_Princs.htm
Ive not verified this myself yet but if true it is truly amazing IMO.

jonnykzj said...

@kiwimac

As a Quran aloner i accept 3 daily prayers only. In regs to ur last part, yes tht might indeed be so but i still need some further evidence. after all Quran and trinity are still in conflict and accepting the wrong idea/concept of God's Nature just to please my desire, without strong enough evidence, cld IMU lead me to hell.

jonnykzj said...

@Hugh watt

I do still think the Quran makes the most logical overall sense and all the scientific miracles supporting it plus the mathematical one. BUT ive also started to focus more on the other side critiquing those n now im looking which has the stronger evidence, Bible or Quran. IF u want to read my history checkout my ID "jonny_k" at free-minds.org forum.

search 4 truth said...

@ ALL Christians. this is Muslims tactics to deflect from the destruction of Islams false Prophet!

And there are NO scientific or numerical miracles in the Quran.

These are all empty assertions. And Islam makes No sense at all Notice Johnny has to throw out all and any historical accounts surrounding the only Prophet of Islam. And yes Mohamed is the only prophet of Islam. The Quran was only revealed to Mohamed! He has no leg to stand on The Quran just appeared out of nowhere. He has no prophet! He cant even prove that he existed. Because he has thrown out all hadith and historical accounts of his sunna and companions!

search 4 truth said...

@ Johnny

Do you think God is limited by what you can comprehend, or the laws of physics? How about Space and time? Is God limited by your imagination?
See you continue to limit God to what you can comprehend. I agree, Islams Allah does have limitations. My God does not!

Samatar Mohamed said...

Search for truth

"Do you think God is limited by what you can comprehend, or the laws of physics? How about Space and time? Is God limited by your imagination?
See you continue to limit God to what you can comprehend. I agree, Islams Allah does have limitations. My God does not!"

Actually, even according to christians God has limitations. God cannot do something that would distort or ruin his perfect attributes. Even minoria pointed out earlier that God almighty cannot die even if he wanted to die. Can God cease being God? Can God, who is "the first and the last", not become the first and last? I do not think so, even ask David wood and most of your christian leaders and they will tell you that there are limits imposed upon God. For example, When David wood posted the video of does allah (swt) commit shirk, he imposed the commandments on muslims also on Allah (swt), and if we are going to be consistent then God is limited by his commandments in the bible also.

Royal Son said...

Samatar - I responded to your first two "miracles" and you went all quiet. Care to respond?

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Samater

I concur. And nothing in the trinity does that. There are classifications. What God cannot do and what God would not do! God could not sin. But your Allah is the greatest deceiver. God could not contradict himself. But your God permits murder, rape, adultery, hate, child molestation, extortion, kidnapping, enslavement, persecution, torture, bigotry, and many other evils that are forbidden by the one true Biblical God. So you have to reconcile this in your heart and mind. Which comes in the form of suspension of reality!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Samater. He did refute your fallacious numerical miracle claim. And you seemed to just skip right past his rebuttal.

Thats called suspension of reality!

I even mentioned it in a posting and you still clung to that false assertion. Thats called suspension of reality x 2, now 4. How do you reconcile that in your mind? Suspension of reality!

Zack_Tiang said...

Jonnykzj,

It is good that you are being rather objective in your search for truth.
And unlike many many of your Muslim brothers/sisters, you are open-minded enough to actually understand the other side of the debate; contrast to the usual claims by many that they know but yet they can never retell the points without distorting or misunderstanding what we actually believe.

But all this is just head knowledge.
Jesus tells us that God is spirit and those who worship Him MUST worship in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
You are getting there on the TRUTH part, but not the SPIRIT part.

You need to know God and who He is and what the scriptures teach of Him.
Both Muslims and Christians claim to follow God who is the most loving, most gracious, etc.
It has been understood that if God is not the pinnacle of love (and also justice), then He can't be God.

So is Allah or YHWH the most loving? (Not gonna touch on other deities, but just Islam's and Christianity's)

---

The Quran says that Allah will love you if you first love him.
003.031
YUSUFALI: Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

But in the bible...
We love because He (YHWH) first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

-------

The Quran says that Allah loves not disbelievers and those who reject him and his messenger..

003.032
SHAKIR: Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

But the bible teaches...

Rom 5:7-10
(7) For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die--
(8) but God shows his love for us in that WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US.
(9) Since, therefore, we have now been justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God.
(10) For if WHILE WE WERE ENEMIES WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life.

-------

Come to know the true loving God, jonny.
You need to be set right in your relationship with our Father in Heaven; and that is only possible through Jesus Christ; the Way, the Truth and the Life; the only means for any man to come to the Father.

Do not be held back by the notion that I must see before I believe.

There are many levels of truth in the bible and most of these can't be understood by us unless it was revealed to us by the Holy Spirit and through His guidance.
And the Holy Spirit is only given to us and comes into us when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

jonnykzj said...

@Search 4 truth

Well there is this:
http://www.discoveringislam.org/beyond_probability.htm
Then there was a statistical analysis done on the initials in the Quran occurding in their relevant chapters in xples of 19 SIGNFICATLY MORE TIMES than any other prime nr multiple. unfortunately tht article is no longer up but i can send it to u via email. Prob by chance given there was as far as i can rem ~ 1/57000. Now granted thts not the world so IF a Bible code can overrie all this, like Moses' sname did with the serpant id need to look at tht.
SOME OTHER FACTS inc the date 1974 coinciding with 19x74 = 1406 which is exactly the nr of lunar yrs from time of revelation of quran till 1974 when Rashad Khalifa first discovered 19 in it.

jonnykzj said...

@search 4 truth

u said

"... But your Allah is the greatest deceiver...."

JK- Do you mean "YUDHIL MAI YAHSHAA" i.e. "misguides whom He Wills"? If so didnt God according to the Bible also not harden/seal the heart of Pharaoh? It's the same sense so debunking islam based on this pt is no good. the rest is hadith based stuff.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Royal son

Esa's name is mentioned 25 times in the quran in arabic. Check it up. The reason other translations have more is because a verse might say "the son of mary" and they would say jesus in brackets to point out who it is, but the name esa would not actually be mentioned in their. If you see how many times esa's name is in arabic, you will find it is exactly 25 times. Also, for man, use the singular term for man and it should work out. And for women use the singular term Imra'a, and it will work out to 24. My point was not to say it was a miracle, but to show minoria that the triple point is not enough to show the trinity. Read my post properly next time.

jonnykzj said...

@search4truth again

Cld u plz quote which parts of my argument you're replying to? Thanks.

u said:
"Do you think God is limited by what you can comprehend, or the laws of physics? How about Space and time? Is God limited by your imagination?"

JK- No He's not but whatever He reveals of Himself in scripture should make sense, be comprehensible and non contradictory.

"See you continue to limit God to what you can comprehend. I agree, Islams Allah does have limitations. My God does not!"

JK- Maybe ur talking abt hadith islam. with tht i grant anything is possible.

jonnykzj said...

@Royal Son

Although i dont agree with Samatar on much Id have to agree on the count of 365 days, someting i myself verified yrs ago. Edip Yuksel has in one of his debates pted out exacty wht forms are counted and why in the Arabic at:
http://www.yuksel.org/e/religion/365days.htm

Samatar Mohamed said...

Search for truth

But your God permits murder, rape, adultery, hate, child molestation, extortion, kidnapping, enslavement, persecution, torture, bigotry, and many other evils that are forbidden by the one true Biblical God.


I promise you search for truth that if Islam actually tought these things, then i would not be a muslim. I go to masjids and learn about my religion constantly from Toronto, Canada to Sharja in the United Arab Emirates and there is no teachings of rape, wrong acts of murder from the so called civilized country to the islam ruled country. Do you honestly believe that a religion that teaches rape, murder would have so many followers in this day and age. All the major religions all say that those acts are immoral and Islam agrees 100 percent with this. We clearly have differences in what we believe Islam teaches.

D335 said...

@Samatar Mohammed

Let's play the chess this way,... let's do a role playing in which we both assume to be outsider to islam and stumble our asses in these words:

Translation of Sahih Muslim: Book 008, Number 3371:

Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): O Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.



Translation of Sahih Muslim: Book 008, Number 3373:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported: We took women captives, and we wanted to do 'azl with them. We then asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about it, and he said to us: Verily you do it, verily you do it, verily you do it, but the soul which has to be born until the Day of judgment must be born.


Now, would Islam considers a rape? You may claim,... IT IS OUT OF CONTEXT, IT IS NOT IN ARABIC, IT IS TIME-LIMITED REVELATION, It is this it is that, and the whole David Wood's List of Islam apologists tactics pour in.

For me? I just take a look at the history and see the significant progress of what Islam has brought us today. Then, I look again to the Jews, the enemy of Islam and see how they brought even more progress today.

After that, I got hungups on why people believes in a religion in which God sent out "convenient" revelations during the time of Muhammad and exactly every time Muhammad did anything that is not okay according to today's modern ethics /standards.

J.J.A. said...

jonnykzj: "Although i dont agree with Samatar on much Id have to agree on the count of 365 days, someting i myself verified yrs ago."

According to Surah 10:5, Allah ordained phases for the moon so that man would be able to calculate years and dates from this, so even though the lunar count is 354 days, you say that you agree with the solar count of 365 days.

How do you resolve the flaw in your numerical "miracle" when one day is added to the solar calendar every four years (i.e. 366 days on leap years)?

Royal Son said...

Samatar - please post all 25 verses that contain the name Aaeesa.

Thank you.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Johnny.

The numerical thing is hilarious. But no, I would be referring to your Allah directly controlling demons and casting them on people.

019.083
YUSUFALI: Seest thou not that We have set the Evil Ones on against the unbelievers, to incite them with fury?
PICKTHAL: Seest thou not that We have set the devils on the disbelievers to confound them with confusion?
SHAKIR: Do you not see that We have sent the Shaitans against the unbelievers, inciting them by incitement?



* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّآ أَرْسَلْنَا ٱلشَّيَاطِينَ عَلَى ٱلْكَافِرِينَ تَؤُزُّهُمْ أَزّاً }

Have you not regarded that We unleash the devils against, We have set them upon, the disbelievers to urge them, to incite them to [commit] acts of disobedience, impetuously?


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّآ أَرْسَلْنَا ٱلشَّيَاطِينَ عَلَى ٱلْكَافِرِينَ تَؤُزُّهُمْ أَزّاً }

(Seest thou not) have you not been informed, O Muhammad, (that We have set the devils on the disbelievers to confound them with confusion) they forcefully drive them to disobey Allah and strongly entice them to do so?

Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas, trans. Mokrane Guezzou
© 2011 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan (http://www.aalalbayt.org) ® All Rights Reserved

Search 4 Truth said...

@ Samater.

Those things have already been established. Many times. But when we post them you seem to disappear and fill that hole back up with your head. How many times do we have to repeat ourselves just for you to bury your head again.

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


From http://islamqa.com/en/ref/10382
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”

[al-Nisa’ 4:3]

What is meant by “or (slaves) that your right hands possess” is slave women whom you own.
And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you, and the daughters of your ‘Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your ‘Ammaat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khaal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khaalaat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Ahzaab 33:50]

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.

But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-31]

Al-Tabari said:

Allaah says, “And those who guard their chastity” i.e., protect their private parts from doing everything that Allaah has forbidden, but they are not to blame if they do not guard their chastity from their wives or from the female slaves whom their rights hands possess.

Tafseer al-Tabari, 29/84

Ibn Katheer said:

Taking a concubine as well as a wife is permissible according to the law of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him). Ibraaheem did that with Haajar, when he took her as a concubine when he was married to Saarah.

Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/383

And Ibn Katheer also said:

The phrase “and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you” [al-Ahzaab 33:50] means, it is permissible for you take concubines from among those whom you seized as war booty. He took possession of Safiyyah and Juwayriyah and he freed them and married them; he took possession of Rayhaanah bint Sham’oon al-Nadariyyah and Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibraaheem (peace be upon them both), and they were among his concubines, may Allaah be pleased with them both.

Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/500

The scholars are unanimously agreed that it is permissible.

Continued:

Search 4 Truth said...

Ibn Qudaamah said:

There is no dispute (among the scholars) that it is permissible to take concubines and to have intercourse with one's slave woman, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”

[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]

Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah was the umm walad (a slave woman who bore her master a child) of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and she was the mother of Ibraaheem, the son of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), of whom he said, “Her son set her free.” Haajar, the mother of Isma’eel (peace be upon him), was the concubine of Ibraaheem the close friend (khaleel) of the Most Merciful (peace be upon him). ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) had a number of slave women who bore him children, to each of whom he left four hundred in his will. ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) had slave women who bore him children, as did many of the Sahaabah. ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn, al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad and Saalim ibn ‘Abd-Allaah were all born from slave mothers

Al-Mughni, 10/441

Al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”

[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]

The Book of Allaah indicates that the sexual relationships that are permitted are only of two types, either marriage or those (women slaves) whom one’s right hand possesses.

Al-Umm, 5/43.

The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.

And Allaah knows best.

I will be awaiting your logical fallacy of how sex where one or both are married does not constitute adultery. And from the same website!

A slave woman does not have the right to refuse her master’s requests unless she has a valid excuse. If she does that she is being disobedient and he has the right to discipline her in whatever manner he thinks is appropriate and is allowed in shari’ah.

From Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 32/278. The hadeeth was narrated by Muslim, 1736.

And you keep saying that if these things were true than you wouldnt be a Muslim. But your still a Muslim. So you have a dilemma on your hands. Suspend reality, or leave Islam!

Rale said...

@Jonnykzj

You find also an explanation of that stuff with pi and e on this page:
http://www.biblemaths.com/pag03_pie/
I didn't check it out either though.

There's also something interesting on this page (from the same author):
http://www.biblemaths.com/pag04_lect/page2.html
The number 37 appears in 4 different manners as a factor in the name Jesus Christ in Greek! I checked it out and it works! 3 refers probably to the Trinity and 7 to the days of Genesis (it's a very important numer in the Bible anyway, especially in John's gospel).
This guy has come up with some very impressive biblical numerics!
There's also Ivan Panin that spent the greatest part of his life finding codes in the Bible and has even written a manuscript of 40,000 pages on it. Check out those pages:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1363.cfm
http://www.breadoflifebiblestudy.com/Lessons/29BibleNumerology/Articles/Seven01.pdf
I've checked some features of the second link and it works.

Once again, I don't endorse this kind of "numerical apologetics". I used to believe in it, but when I discovered that other books are claiming the same thing I kinda gave up on that. But, since you wanna compare, I just wanna share with you some of those pages I used to read last year.

As for scientific miracles, you also find some in the Bible. Here's an interesting page:
http://www.christianevidences.org/scientific-evidence/
On the link "astrophysics", there's even something that has to do with the Trinity!
I personnaly find most of those miracles more clear than those of the Qur'an, but I'm not using that as an argument at all.

Maybe you should also consult:
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/numerical_miracles_309.html
The author is assessing numerical "miracles" in both the Qur'an and the New Testament. On the website you find a page with links to many pages presenting some numerical features in the Qur'an, the Bible, even the book of Mormons I think!
Here is also one refutation of the number 19:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Miracle_of_19
and of the scientific miracles (including numerics) in general:
http://islam-watch.org/Amarkhan/Miracles-of-Quran-Exposed.htm

Johnny, I see that you are sincerely searching the truth, but you're probably taking the wrong strategy. You wanna know which book has the best numerical and scientific miracles. As you may see, impressive claims are made in both religions, and it all looks amazing to people that don't have a clue about sicence and statistics. You should probably look at other arguments. BTW, I've never seen a christian apologists bringing up those "miracles" to try to prove that Christianity is true. On the other hand, muslim apologists use those arguments very extensively. For me, that just shows that they're running out of serious arguments...

BRW, watch maybe the debate "Is the Qur'an miraculous", Nabbel Qureshi vs. Osama Abdallah, available on this blog. I found it very interesting.

Search 4 Truth said...

@ johnny

Sam has a great response to your ridiculous numerical miracles of the Quran.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Religions/Numerics/ And here is another http://www.answering-islam.org/Religions/Numerics/


Also there are 365 messianic prophesies of Jesus Christ! And there are 365 days in the year.

These things prove nothing, but maybe a way to deceive the simple minded. Like finding the word Allah when you cut open an apple or something. I see these types of things on youtube all the time. And I laugh every time. I see videos of dogs barking at the azan, and all the Muslims are posting Mashallah and Allah Akbar. And i just can't help but giggle. Oh how Satan has pulled a good one on you. I guess it;s not funny, it's sad.

D335 said...

@ALL CHRISTIANS
(lmao, copying JohnyKZJ)

nope this one to JohnyKZJ. The same question to the previous post.
--------------------------------

Show us my friend, which part of the fence are you standing. What do you believe?
What is your religion, the state of your believe? (Christian? Muslim? Atheist? Agnostic (pro-theist or pro-atheist)?
--------------------------------
This is maybe direct, but we do have unfinished arguments on other blogs, since your tactics are:

1. Confuse people by throwing them links and hoping they would all read it. *similar to muslims apologists tactics*

2. Jumps from topics to topics. I do wonder why you believe in the
- existence of HUMAN HERMAPHRODITE (while throwing links regarding animal hermaphrodite)
- Soul can be hurt by a knife.
- Spectrum or levels in heaven or heavens.
- Good deeds will enable christian to apply for promotion in the eyes of the Lord God.
- one great way to show which religion is the true one and that is to show the EFFICACY OF PRAYER VIA STATISTICS. (that's your exact words).
-Not to mention Demonic babies, Christian SHOULD opt for Death Penalty, etc etc etc.

3. Constant mistakes on definitions and verses. Like the one that OT WAS ABOLISHED!. And don't try to make things up because I POINTED THAT MISTAKE and you re-direct that I was the one who's mistaken.

--> This is also why everyone must discover your standing first, since you claim to be pro -THEISTIC EVOLUTION- in which a concept of answering biological questions THROUGH SCRIPTURE.
What is your scripture? What do you hold fast?

---------------------------------
D335 ^^ - with a vengeance, har har hargh

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Royal Son

2:136, 2:87, 2:253, 3:52, 3:55, 3:59, 3:84, 3:45, 4:157, 4:163, 4:171, 5:46, 5:78, 5:110, 5:112, 5:114, 5:116, 6:85, 19:34, 33:7, 42:13, 43:63, 57:27, 61:6, 61:14

Jesus(pbuh) name occurs in them all.

hugh watt said...

JK

You didn't answer my question.

JK- "No...but whatever He reveals of Himself in scripture should make sense, be comprehensible and non contradictory."

Q.2:34 And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

Jalalayn - And, mention, when We said to the angels, ‘Prostrate yourselves to Adam’, a prostration that is a bow of salutation; so they prostrated themselves, except Iblīs, the father of the jinn, who was among the angels, he refused, to prostrate, and disdained, became proud and said, I am better than he [Q. 7:12]; and so he became one of the disbelievers, according to God’s knowledge.

Shirk!!!

jonnykzj said...

@Zack tiang

u said

"And unlike many many of your Muslim brothers/sisters,..."

JK- First i thank u for appreciating my objectiveness. gives me a warm feeeling in my heart. HOWVEVER i wldnt call these folks here my muslim bros/sisters. if any r my bros/sis itd be Quran Alone muslims.

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