Friday, October 7, 2011

Kim's Claim about Christianity and Sin

Our dear friend Kim assures us that, contrary to the Qur'an and the Hadith, Islam does not allow Muslims to use deception in their efforts to promote an Islamic agenda. Isn't it ironic, then, that Kim so blatantly misrepresents Christianity? In a recent comment, Kim wrote:

I understand Christianity has no rules or regulations as you are free to sin all you want since an innocent man died for you, but please don't be jealous.

This is simply absurd. According to 1 John 2:3-6, anyone who thinks he can sin freely after becoming a Christian isn't really a Christian. John writes:

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Even more ironic is that Islam teaches exactly what Kim condemned Christianity for teaching! According to Kim's prophet, Allah will punish Christians and Jews for the sins of Muslims, even if the Muslim's sins are "as heavy as a mountain":

Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.

Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.

So let me see if I've got this straight. Kim has distorted what Christianity teaches in order to attack it. This wouldn't normally be a problem for a Muslim, since Islam allows deception. However, Kim doesn't believe that Islam allows deception, which means that deception, on Kim's view, is a sin. But not to worry! Kim can sin all day long, because Allah will punish Christians and Jews for her sins! So she's free to misrepresent Christianity all she wants!

***UPDATE***

It seems that Mahdi doesn't want to be outdone by Kim, so he added some further distortion of the Christian message. In response to the above passage, he writes:

That biblical verse you posted still mentions nothing about the accounts of Christians who sin.

If a Christian sins, does that mean he automatically goes to hell, even though he still believes in Jesus? But if Jesus died for your sins, and breaking the commandments constitutes as a sin, then why would Christians be punished for sins that have already been absolved?

Furthermore, what's the point of having God sacrifice himself for your sins when the people who are eligible for this offer are the ones who don't sin in the first place (according to that verse). That's akin to me inviting my friends to a restaurant and telling them that I'll pay for their bills just so long as they don't order anything.

I'm starting to agree with the commenters who say that Kim and Mahdi aren't really interested in discussion, but are only here to try to annoy people. In response to my quotation of 1 John 2, Mahdi claims that the passage teaches that only sinless people are eligible for Christ's sacrifice. Of course, if he'd bothered to read just a few verses earlier, he would have read 1 John 1:9-10, which says,

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Let's see what we have here. According to John, (1) we've all sinned; (2) if we confess our sins, God will forgive us; and (3) if we continue sinning, we don't really know Jesus. There's absolutely nothing mysterious here, and there's no room for misrepresentation. Obviously, Mahdi would like to say, "But God says he'll forgive you if you confess, so you can sin as much as you want." But that clearly isn't the case, because of (3). So does (3) mean that a Christian will go to hell if he sins? Certainly not, for that would contradict (1) and (2). Obviously (and it can't get much more obvious than this), the passage teaches that "confession" involves more than merely saying, "Okay, I did it," while continuing to revel in sin. It invokes repentance. If we repent (turn away from our sins), God will forgive us, because of Christ's sacrifice. But if a person runs around saying, "Yay! I get to sin as much as I want because Christ died for me," such a person hasn't really confessed his sins. Anyone could understand this, yet Mahdi would rather deny the obvious and pretend he just can't figure it out. Is a little honesty and integrity too much to ask? Perhaps we should ask Mahdi for his explanation of Sahih Muslim 6666 and 6668. So, Mahdi, do these passages say that God will punish Christians and Jews for your sins? Absolutely. And does that mean you get to sin as much as you want?

***2ND UPDATE***

Kim added a response to my simple, straightforward exegesis of 1 John. She wrote:

1 John v9-10
Seems to me that you can confess your sins, but it doesn't say anything about true repentance. You added that in there. All I can understand from that is if you sin, you should confess and feel that God forgave that particular sin. Doesn't say that you should stop doing it in order to be forgiven. The Bible doesn't give clear-cut things on how to live life the right way.

Are we all in agreement that Kim is being willfully ignorant here? She says that the verse doesn't say anything about true repentance, and that I simply added this. Sheer nonsense! I pointed out that, in context, John says that if people go on sinning freely, they're not really Christians. But if we can't go on sinning freely, then context demands that we turn away from our sins. So the "confession" must include repentance. How could this be any easier to understand?

The only way Kim could maintain her utterly nonsensical interpretation of the "confession" verse is to claim, with a straight face, that context is irrelevant to the meaning of a verse, and that when we interpret a verse, we should completely ignore the verses which come before it and after it. But here she would be going against the most basic rules of scriptural interpretation, and I'm wondering if she's going to be consistent. So, Kim, are you saying that context is irrelevant to the meaning of a verse? If so, I've got some questions about the Qur'an, and you won't be allowed to appeal to context.

Kim also said:

"As heavy as a mountain" most likely refers to the minor sins that people commit, but don't notice, and it keeps building up. IF a Muslim commits major sins over and over and doesn't repent then he/she will face punishment first.

"Kim can sin all day long, because Allah will punish Christians and Jews for her sins! So she's free to misrepresent Christianity all she wants!"

That would make me arrogant to say Allah will forgive my sins and Allah does not admit arrogant people into Paradise even if its the tiniest amount.

Uh oh! Kim's on the verge of understanding the Gospel! She says that even minor sins can add up to something "as heavy as a mountain." But how can Allah simply forgive sins as heavy as a mountain? Doesn't it sound like such heavy sins are significant? Wouldn't they require some kind of punishment? Wouldn't someone need to pay the price for these sins? And do you think it's acceptable for Allah to punish Christians and Jews for the "minor sins" you've been accumulating all your life, Kim? Do you realize that this passage teaches "substitutionary atonement"? And why can Allah punish Christians and Jews for your minor sins but not your major sins?

Also note that when Kim explains Muhammad's words for us, she tells us what Muhammad really meant by adding that "as heavy as a mountain" refers to minor sins. But wait a minute. When I appealed to context to explain the "confession" verse, Kim said that I added words not in the text. But here she adds words that aren't in Sahih Muslim in order to escape the obvious meaning of Muhammad's words. So why the inconsistency? Why does Kim get to insert words into Muhammad's mouth, but I can't appeal to context?

***3RD UPDATE***

Kim still doesn't understand basic points about how forgiveness works. A parable about a sower and some seed comes to mind, but I'll leave that aside for now.

Kim wrote:

I don't get it. Jesus died for your sins but you still have to repent? What am I missing??

You're missing the fact that God's justice is perfect. If you repent of your sins, will a perfectly just God simply sweep it under the rug? To illustrate, think about a perfectly just human judge. If you walk into court and say, "Yes, I committed the crime, but I'm really sorry about it, and I won't do it again," is the judge going to let you slide because you've turned away from your crimes? Of course not. A crime has been committed, and the law demands justice.

That's a human judge. What about a being whose justice is perfect and infinite? Is that sort of being going to let any sin slide? Of course not. Hence, if you repent of your sins, God can forgive you, but a punishment must still be made, because God's justice demands it. That's why Christ died for our sins. He paid the price God's justice demands.

Of course, you'll immediately start saying that you don't believe in substitutionary atonement, but I've already shown that your prophet taught substitutionary atonement. The difference is that, according to Christianity, Jesus willingly paid the price for our sins, because God's love, like his justice, is perfect. According to Islam, however, Allah's justice is flawed and limited, as is his love, and he punishes Christians and Jews for the sins of Muslims. Interesting religion you believe in.

So tell us, why do you think it's unacceptable for Jesus to die for sins, but you think it's perfectly acceptable for God to punish Christians and Jews for your sins. We'd like to know, because all we see all day long are Muslims complaining about Christian doctrine, and contradicting Islam in the process.

78 comments:

Mahdi said...

That biblical verse you posted still mentions nothing about the accounts of Christians who sin.

If a Christian sins, does that mean he automatically goes to hell, even though he still believes in Jesus? But if Jesus died for your sins, and breaking the commandments constitutes as a sin, then why would Christians be punished for sins that have already been absolved?

Furthermore, what's the point of having God sacrifice himself for your sins when the people who are eligible for this offer are the ones who don't sin in the first place (according to that verse). That's akin to me inviting my friends to a restaurant and telling them that I'll pay for their bills just so long as they don't order anything.

Mahdi said...

I'm beginning to see a trend developing here, in which anyone here on these blogs who talks about the teachings of Christianity is automatically accused as distorting and or misunderstanding the teachings, as well as some double standards being employed. My intention isn't to annoy or hurt people here, so I apologize if that was the case. However I would appreciate it if you refrained from making baseless assumptions about my motives. But discussing beliefs is a sensitive issue, so I would expect some forms of accusations.

You're essentially saying that any Christian who continues sinning isn't a true Christain because being a Christian involves repentance to God and understanding Jesus. That still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of Christians are far from being saints. They steal, lie, abuse and fornicate all while wearing a crucifix necklace.

Here is a conundrum for you. I wish to talk about this overjoyed individual that you mentioned 'But if a person runs around saying, "Yay! I get to sin as much as I want because Christ died for me," such a person hasn't really confessed his sins'. Understood. Now here's what I'm asking: Will God punish this Christian for their crimes, or will he/she go free because Jesus already paid the price? If your answer is the former, then Jesus didn't die for your sins. If the latter, then you've pretty much given every Christian a justification to continue sinning.

I'm sincerely trying to understand the basic fundamentals of your faith, yet I keep coming across these logical contradictions. When I point these out I either get branded as distorting something or that I have an intellectual deficiency (like you tried to imply).

----

Regarding the Hadiths, anyone who commits a sin will face it on the Day of Judgement. Allah swt can however choose to forgive certain sins (not all) depending on your status and how close you were to him. We also believe in Islam that anyone who has his or her rights broken by a fellow human being will be compensated by having some of that persons good deeds transported to your account. For example, if I punch someone in the face and break a tooth, then on the Day of Judgement that person will be compensated for his pain by taking some of my good deeds because I was the one who caused him pain, something I had no right to do.

This isn't for all Muslims however. These are certain circumstances for certain situations.

The Purple Marquise said...

Mahdi: Listen friend, Muslims quite often misunderstand and get confused about the issue of faith in Jesus and atonement and view it through the rather black and white prism of Islam. Faith in Jesus and accepting his sacrifice is MUCH MORE than just having your sins forgiven. When a person accepts Jesus in his life sincerely and becomes so to speak "born again" the minimum that happens is that your sins will be forgiven but that is not all by any means. That is only the very beginning of the gospel of salvation. By the act of putting your trust in Jesus you don't just accept that he died for your sins but you also allow and give permission to the holy spirit of God to dwell in you and start Its perfecting work in you. Every Christian is God's work in progress and we all have a long way to go (especially considering from what abyss some of us start our journey towards perfection). But since our God is not a God of violence and coercion he would never want to stay in us and change us by force, so if a person makes a confession by the mouth but his life is full of unrepented and brazen sin that is a pretty good indicator that he has not allowed the Holy Spirit of God to dwell in him and work in him despite what he confesses with his mouth. But of course all of us Christians still sin and struggle with weakness and temptation, but a true Christian despite some occasional ups and downs shows signs of change and progress and moves to the right direction.

The Purple Marquise said...

..... Continue To Mahdi: The ultimate Goal of Christianity is not JUST to get us into heaven (unlike Islam) so that we can have fun and relax! The goal of getting into heaven is almost achieved right away after you are born again. What is really the goal is to allow God to work on us to perfect us more and more and bring us to the kind of holiness that we had before the sin entered the world so that we can enjoy his presence unimpeded and be closer to him and appreciate him more and have a closer and more intimate relationship with him as our heavenly father who loves us more than his own majesty and glory. I think if you try to look at God not as some heavenly policeman who wants to catch you for your sins but more like a loving father who wants to raise his children in an atmosphere of trust and love to be good spiritual adults and closer to him you will start to grasp this concept with the help of God! In Christian vocabulary this gradual progress away from sin and towards holiness is called "Sanctification" which in Christian faith is the second phase after "Justification" which is the forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ. Justification is the first step towards and the prerequisite for Sanctification which is the true and ultimate Goal of Christianity. Justification is just when you say yes to God and say "Yes! Lord I am a weak sinning human being who in my own power cannot ever achieve the holiness necessary to be in your presence. So overtake me! I trust you! Take me where ever you need me to go!"! That's it! That is just the beginning of the journey not the end of it! I know many Christians these days put too much emphasis on Justification and forget to perfectly explain the second and more paramount goal of sanctification and thus cause some confusion for the non-Christians who then don't understand what exactly deters Christians from sinning when all of their sins are supposedly forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice. Well what deters us to a great degree is the work of Holy Spirit who changes our nature from within and gradually makes sin as repugnant to us as it is to God. When God dwells in you you wills start to see the world more and more from his point of view and less and less from your sinful human point of view and feel the gravity and ugliness of sin and it loses its attraction to you over time. Sorry for the long answer. But I hope with the help of the Holy Spirit you can see what I am trying to say. Please pray and ask God to show you the truth what ever it may be so that he can start his mighty work in you. You know? Life is very short and the journey towards sanctification takes quite a bit of time! Blessings!

Deleting said...

David said 'I'm starting to agree with the commenters who say that Kim and Mahdi aren't really interested in discussion, but are only here to try to annoy people.'

You think? *smirk*

I don't have a real problem with Mahdi for the most part. He's doesn't live and breathe on this board like Kim does.

What I take issue with on is the fact that Kim comes on here, make backhanded comments towards christians and turn around and blame christians.

Its your blog and your rules, but in all sincerity if Kim isn't going to be open to honest dialogue and keeps insulting us does she have to be on this board?

Radical Moderate said...

Yeah what David Said....

Myself and FMM have been getting into it with Mahdi and 1milimeter and others on another blog.

I noticed something about Muslims, when ever they get refuted they just move right on to there next accusation.

Then when they run out of accusations and mis representations they hit the reset button and go to back to the top of the list.

donna60 said...

Perhaps Mahdi really doesn't understand the bible, and is going by what some Christians teach. I have denominational friends who are all over the place in regards to works and faith.

Baptist friends tell me that a "saved" believer can do anything, and he is always saved. It is impossible that he fall from grace.

Catholic friends--well, actually don't seem to rely on any grace at all. Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (m. Theresa) even went several steps farther and suggested that Jesus enjoyed our suffering. She is highly criticised (as well she should be,) for not offering pain-relievers in her hospital. Critics of this woman, who visited her hospital state that screams of pain and anguish ripped through her hospital.

Neither of these views are biblical, but the alleged Christians who believe them teach these insane doctrines. I can understand how Mahdi and Kim can both be confused as to what the bible actually does teach.

curly said...

Amen! Well said, David.
The people keep up to repent and improve himself is the basic common of teaching in Holy Bible. Example Abraham lie several times, David, Jacob, Paul in Roman 7, etc. Moreover, Jesus emphasized Peter that we have to forgive 77 times Matthew 18: 21-22 and love our enemies. God is still faithfully with them.
Let waiting and seeing if Madhi can respond David Wood's challenge.

Kim said...

"As heavy as a mountain" most likely refers to the minor sins that people commit, but don't notice, and it keeps building up. IF a Muslim commits major sins over and over and doesn't repent then he/she will face punishment first.


"Kim can sin all day long, because Allah will punish Christians and Jews for her sins! So she's free to misrepresent Christianity all she wants!"

That would make me arrogant to say Allah will forgive my sins and Allah does not admit arrogant people into Paradise even if its the tiniest amount.


1 John v9-10
Seems to me that you can confess your sins, but it doesn't say anything about true repentance. You added that in there. All I can understand from that is if you sin, you should confess and feel that God forgave that particular sin. Doesn't say that you should stop doing it in order to be forgiven. The Bible doesn't give clear-cut things on how to live life the right way.

CristoTeAma said...

I think that Muslims so desperately want to put our faith lower to the same level that Islam that they must do these kind of claims. David said well but i have another interesting verses:

1) Jesus said in John 14:15 15 “If you love me, keep my commands"
-So we can't say we love Christ and yet do not follow his commands (being Christians). This verse is also useful against Muslims who claim "we respect Jesus", no you don't, how can you respect him when he came to bring this new pact for all mankind not only for Jews and White romans, but for Arabs and North africans too.?

2) Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
-The first part of the verse is something Muhammad despised, but the important for this argument is the second part "WITHOUT HOLINESS NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD". So if you read the rest of that charapter(i highly recommend Mahdi to do it so you may learn something about Chrisntianity)you will see that Kim's and your claim are not true at all. In example:

"9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it"
-Why would God discipline us if according to your claims, our god doesn't care we sin or no since he has forgotten all our sins?

3) John 8:11 "She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more"
-This verse again shows that my God do care about me sinning, and that he commands me to stay away from sins after he forgives me.

4) 1 Timothy 5:22 "Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure"
- And that's why we can not be part of the sins Muhammad allows to Muslims commit.

5) Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
-If Muhammad would apply this, no one would've join to him, because they did for their own flesh desires: Women, War booty, Eternal orgy in heaven , Etc etc.

6)James 1:14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death"
-Same comment than point 5

CristoTeAma said...

7) Galatians 5: 16 “So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.”
-This one is long, but i think it’s very important because it resumes the Christian born again doctrine, and also 22-26 give us another reason to dismiss Muhammad as a Prophet from God(at least the god of OT and NT)

8) Also REPENTANCE is a key word, because when you repent of doing something you will really try to not doing it again, that’s how real repentance works. And the bible leaves clear repentance is important, I will address some verses, but I hope that you don’t be lazy and see it by yourself: Acts 20:21, 1 John 1:9, Proverbs 28:13 “He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.”

9) We being Christians can be defiled by our sins, so we must stay way from them, that’s what bible teaches:
2 Cor 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
Heb 12:15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
1 John 3:2,3 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

10) Our LORD AND SAVIOUR Jesus Christ says that we must stay away from sins because they can send us to eternal death (But if his sacrifice is like You and Kim thinks, then why would he say such things?) in example:
Mat 5:28,29 “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell”

11) To finish these next verses show that Kim and Mahdi have no clue about what the Bible teaches:
Heb 10:26, 27 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God”

Luke 13:24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to”
-How can be possible that a God who says these things is allowing us to sin because he has already forgiven our sins? It only works if you are trying to put God in the same low level as a God who allows so many unholy things as Allah does.

goethechosemercy said...

Quote:
If a Christian sins, does that mean he automatically goes to hell, even though he still believes in Jesus? But if Jesus died for your sins, and breaking the commandments constitutes as a sin, then why would Christians be punished for sins that have already been absolved?
end

Good question from a magical mindset.
The judgment is not magic.
Our belief is not a magical thing-- we believe, we are forgiven.
In a propitiary, primitive religion, that kind of narrative is possible, but not in Christianity, which is transformative.
Ultimately, we don't know.
We believe, we self-examine, go to the sacraments, we confess.
But the point is that we believe, we don't know. And unlike Muslims, we really know that we don't know.

Now, as a Muslim, with all these Christian and Jewish scapegoats out there, all you have to do is kill one and it takes all your sins away. Just like the scapegoat.
What a convenient thing. And you are commanded to know this, not to believe it.
It is your magical sacrifice.
It requires no self-examination on your part.
It requires nothing except your submission to unreason.

characterbuilder said...

Excellent exegesis David.

Fisher said...

The answer is in Ezekiel 36:25-27. God puts His Holy Spirit in believers to cause them to gradually become holy and obedient as they progress in their walk with God. That, and 1 John 4:19 where it says we love because He first loved us.

search 4 truth said...

David.
I dont think I have ever met, spoken to, or heard a debate in which a Muslim displayed honesty or integrity. They cant, because then their world would come crashing down around them. I truly believe this, they are taught by osmosis to be dishonest and not to be consistent. Rarely like in the case of Farhan Quareshi can one put their feeling s aside and think for themselves!

And this is not bigotry or prejudice. These are factual statement that I just cant ignore any more.

Hemel said...

Anyway David Wood just to inform you what your friend Ehteshaamd Ghulam is doing with Dr White

Jabari said...

I want to add my two cents to what David just said:

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Romans 6:1-10

Destroys this notion that saved people can do what ever they want ever they turn to Christ Jesus.

cestusdei said...

I worked with a Muslim who assured me continually that Muslims never persecute Coptic Christians. Finally fed up I copied many incidents and gave them to him. He glanced at them, tossed them aside, and said "they deserve it." In other words he lied to me and when caught had no shame. After all, I am just a kaffir. Muslims lie. They do it all the time. They lie about our religion which they know little about and about there won which they also often know little about. I never trust what a Muslim tells me about religion or much else. I learned my lesson.

TAREK said...

Kim said...
Tarek
Yes a fridge can fit into a bottle of course depending what size.
Normally, no.
And I don't understand your point on the verses you want me to read. I read them, and I'm guessing you gave me the wrong ones?

And 33:50, ask a scholar and read the tafsirs/commentary thank you.

Dear Kim....
thank you very much for the try. I know you are afraid of answering. We will take the normal answer
Let me tell you clearly that there is no fridge that can be put in a bottle. I posted this question many months ago but no muslim wanted to answer. The sun is bigger one million and 3o ooo times than the earth how come you prophet said the sun set in a whale? Can you please explain that to me.
I know I gave the right verses. I think you are confused, the one you are talking about is from Delete. The verses I gave are correct. Surah 4 Ayah 82 talks of "in case any mistake found in the quran should be rejected" (was just paraphrasing again please), read it very well then explain which of the following two verses do you follow:
Second point
Surah 2 ayah 29 & surah 79 ayah 27 to 33. As a muslim which one do you stand for.

Again please Kim do not bring up more allegation(s);Not only that you are exposing yourself( as an ignorant)you are creating more confusion in your brains.
Please deal with my points so that you can understand why you must reject islam.
Dr David please i think we should stick to one point with Kim till he admits that he is wrong then we can ask him to reject Islam.

Let ME once more use this opportunity to wish you, all the best and have a nice weekend MAY THE PEACE OF OUR LORD BE with you all AMEN.

Radical Moderate said...

Again what David said...

Kim wrote...

"
Seems to me that you can confess your sins, but it doesn't say anything about true repentance. You added that in there. All I can understand from that is if you sin, you should confess and feel that God forgave that particular sin. Doesn't say that you should stop doing it in order to be forgiven. The Bible doesn't give clear-cut things on how to live life the right way."

Here is the thing, Muslims look at us becasue we do not have Criminal codes based on Sin in the bible. In other words they think that for us SIN is not a crime to be punished by earthly authorities.

So to them since eating pork is not punished with imprisonment or whipping and beating this some how means you can commit murder????

The funny thing is that being under Gods just judment and wrath is not enough for the Muslims. They must have the threat of being punished by human means to keep them either from sinning or to keep there sin private.

It really demonstrates a lack of belief, reverence and fear of the God they claim to worship.

Another point is that every culture and every tribe, whether they are pagans, budists, commie athiests even NAZI's had punishements for Murder, Theft, Rape, even adultry etc...

So my question to Muslims is what other sins that are not covered by most secular laws should be punished by criminal courts?

Radical Moderate said...

@Kim she wrote... Part 1

"Seems to me that you can confess your sins, but it doesn't say anything about true repentance."

This is another one of those "SHOW ME THE EXACT WORDS" games that they like to play.

SHe also said...

"The Bible doesn't give clear-cut things on how to live life the right way."

Well lets take a look at this, first I did a quick search on repentence in biblegateway using all the books of the NT. I got 54 hits,

So here they are....
Matthew 3:2
and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Matthew 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Matthew 11:20
[ Woe on Unrepentant Towns ] Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.

Matthew 11:21
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here.

My Two Sense said...

Mahdi. Respectfully, here's "my two cents". Take it or leave it.

The choice of your name, first of all, gives me pause. Wasn't the "Mahdi" the being who comes with Issa (Jesus) to get rid of the Jizya tax and make Islam the religion of the world by the sword? Black flags and all that? Hmmm... Never mind. Moving on.

"That still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of Christians are far from being saints. They steal, lie, abuse and fornicate all while wearing a crucifix necklace."

Not getting any arguments from me. Part of the reason I left the church was because I encountered a lot of hypocrites saying something and doing something else (The other part was mainly because I am not a Bible "literalist"). Your statement is a non sequitor though because that doesn't change the fact that there are Muslims in the world who go against the teachings of Islam... or follow it to the letter depending on our/their/whoever's understanding of the text you go by... David's or otherwise. "You think Muslims bad, look at Christians." still doesn't excuse the Muslims, or rather the Muslims talked about here on this blog... the "bad" Muslims per se.

I dunno. I find all "revealed religions" suspect to greater or lesser degrees. Man lived on this planet for millions of years without God, Allah or Yahweh. It's only been the last 4000+ years that man has lived under the yoke of monotheism.

There is no Easter Bunny.

Radical Moderate said...

@ Kim REPENTING IN THE BIBLE PART 2

Matthew 21:32
For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:4
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1:15
“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”


Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that people should repent.


Luke 3:3
He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”


Luke 10:13
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.


Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Luke 13:5
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”


Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.


Luke 15:10
In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.

Luke 17:4
Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

Luke 24:47
and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Radical Moderate said...

@Kim on Repenting Part 3

Relax KIM this is ging to take a while...

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

Acts 8:22
Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Acts 13:24
Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel.

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Acts 19:4
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.


Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.


Romans 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?


2 Corinthians 7:9
yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.

Radical Moderate said...

@ KIM on Repentence Part 4 I think...

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

2 Corinthians 12:21
I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.


2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,


2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Revelation 2:5
Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Revelation 2:16
Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:21
I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.


Revelation 2:21
I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.

Revelation 2:22
So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.

Revelation 3:3
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Revelation 3:19
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.

Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Revelation 16:11
and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.


WEll thats it KIM, so you were saying about repentence in the bible??????

Kim said...

I don't get it. Jesus died for your sins but you still have to repent? What am I missing??

Kim said...

How does the Holy Spirit dwell in you if it's a third of God. That's utter blasphemy in my view.

Deleting said...

It means you stop sinning (lying, promiscuity, stealing, using God's name in vain, etc) and look to Jesus.
If you slip up and make a mistake, confess it (which also means you acknowledge it before God) and he is faithful and just to forgive you, and help you not to do it again.
Its when we take our eyes off Jesus and look to ourselves that we stumble into sin.

My Two Sense said...

KIM -

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"I am the way the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father except through me." John 14:6

Dang. For a longtime non-practicing Christian, I can still Bible verse here and there with the best of them...

So the understanding is that you have to believe Jesus died for your sins in order to be saved. Part of being a Christian is also FOLLOWING and UPHOLDING the message of Christ, which is a daily struggle.

Radical Moderate pretty much covered Repentance.

I imagine the whole purpose of any holy book is that it is supposed to lay out rules and guidelines on how to live a devout life. "Jesus died for your sins" is not a "get out of jail free" card to sin with impunity. Reciting "there is no deity but Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet," while it does make you a Muslim it doesn't guarantee you "Paradise". You still have to follow the Pillars of Islam.

CristoTeAma said...

Kim said...
"I don't get it. Jesus died for your sins but you still have to repent? What am I missing??"

He is the sacrifice (our lamb) as the OT teaches, If you read the Torah, you will see that in Moses times God establishes a sacrifice system for atonement of sins, they had to repent for their sins and kill the lamb, goat, bull,etc. So they could get their sins forgiven, since for God sin=death, Jesus is our Lamb, his blood cleans us from our sins, we must repent and believe in him so his sacrifice can work for us and clean us from our sins. Jesus didn't die only for us he died for you, yet it doesn't mean your sins are clean because you don't accept his sacrifice, so it can't work for you unless you repent,believe, and ask forgivness. But if you repent with real sincerity, you will try hard to stay away from sinning, you will hate sin and love rightousness because as Jesus said "if you love me, keep my commands" you can say you really love Jesus and yet don't follow his teachings, you will aim to holiness, which is necessary to reach Heaven, so there is a difference between thinking that Jesus Christ existed and loving him and believing in his words about heaven and hell. I hope this "A B C" of Christianity may help you to understand better God's will. I will quote some verses from the OT so you can see it easier:

Leviticcus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul"

But if you wanna understand deeper the sacrificial system you should read Leviticus chap 4,5,6,7, also check Numbers 29:11,

Traeh said...

This relates to some things I've not yet understood about some forms of Christianity.

Some Christians say that they feel assured of salvation, that they will go to heaven, because they have accepted Jesus as their savior.

I have not yet exactly understood what people meant by accepting Jesus. I know some of them mean that Jesus literally came to them as a spirit and that changed them. One wonders how they know it was Jesus, but I can accept that it might have been and that a rational, evidence-based person could in some way know it was Jesus if s/he literally met Jesus' spirit.

But lots of other Christians seem to mean something else vaguer and more metaphorical when they say Jesus came into their heart. Those Christians can be quite fervent and passionate about their Christianity, but when they talk about meeting Jesus, I get the feeling they are speaking symbolically and using that symbolism to express the emotional moment when they became committed to some church or faith group and its belief system. It seems like a lot of them didn't literally meet Jesus as a distinct spiritual being who literally talked to them in the Spirit in some kind of extended way that gave plenty of incontrovertible evidence that it was Jesus of Nazareth talking to them. Rather, they just decided or came somehow to "believe" in Jesus, whatever that means in their faith group. Then they refer to that new belief as "meeting" Jesus. But really all they had was a strong emotional experience and maybe they saw some spiritual lights, and their heart opened, or such like, and they call that "meeting" Jesus -- but they didn't literally meet someone in the spirit who literally said, "I am Jesus" and so on, and somehow made it clear that he was indeed Jesus, not some figment.

(to be continued in next comment)

Traeh said...

(continued from last comment)

Anyway, what I've yet to understand is a seeming contradiction: on the one hand, some Christians say they have a guarantee of salvation. But what if you are a Christian, and you are far from being a saint, you are a sinner, you are good in some ways and bad in others. Shouldn't you have some anxiety about whether you are indeed saved? How do you know if you are doing enough against your bad and selfish tendencies? David said, if I understood him, that being a Christian does not give you a blank check to commit sin. So that sounds to me like you are only guaranteed salvation as a Christian if you don't sin too much. So how do you know for sure if you are sinning little enough, if you are Christian enough, good enough, etc.? To me that doesn't sound like you have a guarantee of salvation. Sounds like maybe Christians could wonder whether they are saved, whether they are going to heaven, since they don't have a blank check to do sins. So I don't understand the guarantee of salvation that some Christians talk about.

Or maybe those Christians who speak of guaranteed salvation are not the Christians who understand Jesus in the deepest and most educated way? I don't know.

Is David saying that if you are a Christian who sins too much to get into heaven or be saved, that means you were never really a Christian, and you never actually met Jesus, because if you had, and you accepted him, you would necessarily reduce your sinning to the point where your salvation was guaranteed?

David, you said to be a true Christian, you must repent your sins, and turn away from sin. But all men remain sinners, even Christians, don't Christians say that? So what does it mean to "repent" and "turn away from sin" if you remain a sinner anyway? Some sort of reduction of sin to some hard to define minimal level? If a Christian wonders if s/he has repented enough to be a true Christian, should that Christian be anxious about salvation?

How can a Christian, with his finite, mortal, sinner's mind, ever know for sure he has repented enough to consider himself a "true" Christian? How can he be certain, with his imperfect mind, that he has sufficiently "turned away from sin"? Is it that an actual contact with the literal Jesus gives him some sort of miraculously conveyed knowledge and certainty that he is a true Christian and he can count on his salvation?

I just don't understand the guarantee of salvation that some Christians talk about. I wonder if it is really essential to Jesus Christ to believe in a guarantee of salvation.

I'm genuinely curious about these things for spiritual reasons. Islam has some good elements, but in general it's a totalitarian cult and I wouldn't touch it with a hundred foot hazmat prong, so I'm not on Mahdi's side or the side of Muslims here. Just wondering if David or someone rational and evidence-based can see the question I'm asking and either answer it or point me to a website or book that deals with the specific conundrum I pointed to.

Thank you for your patience.

Traeh said...

David said: "According to John, (1) we've all sinned; (2) if we confess our sins, God will forgive us; and (3) if we continue sinning, we don't really know Jesus..."

A question I have with #3: Don't all Christians continue sinning? And does that mean, according to the statement above, that no Christians know Jesus?

Would David agree that his statement should be modified to say that if a Christian sins less than before meeting Jesus, then the Christian has partly come to know Jesus? And the less the Christian sins, the more he or she has come to know Jesus?

David said:

...Mahdi would like to say, "But God says he'll forgive you if you confess, so you can sin as much as you want." But that clearly isn't the case, because of (3).

#3 says that if you continue sinning, you don't know Jesus. In other words, if you continue sinning, you are not a Christian. In that logic, Mahdi is wrong to say that Christians can sin as much as they want. But perhaps the only way David can maintain this is by modifying his statement to say not that a Christian "stops sinning" but rather a Christian sins less. All humans are sinners, right?

David said:

So does (3) mean that a Christian will go to hell if he sins? Certainly not, for that would contradict (1) and (2).

#1 and #2 say that all men sin, and if we repent and turn away from sin, God will forgive us, not throw us into hell.

Okay, so on the one hand, David says that if someone sins, he doesn't really know Jesus. But David also says that Christians sometimes sin. So he seems to be saying that, to the extent they sin, to that same extent Christians don't know Jesus and are not Christians? But if they repent and turn away from sins, God will forgive them. I assume this means if they reduce their sins, not stop sinning, because no one can completely stop sinning, right?

Some Christians say that if you repent and turn away from sin, you are guaranteed salvation and heaven. But how do you know if you have turned sufficiently away from sin? How do you know if you have repented enough? That's where I don't see the guarantee of salvation some Christians talk about. Everything seems to depend on whether one has sufficiently repented.

Are there specific items that one must carry out to know one has sufficiently repented to get into heaven? Must one give away any excess money, for example, and if one doesn't give it away, one might end up in hell?

curly said...

@ Madhi,
I know some Muslims believe that some muslims would go to hell for temporary, then return to the paradise. I have a question for you. In end, All Muslims will go to the paradise ?

curly said...

@The Purple Marquise,
Beautiful !

@Search4truth,
“I truly believe this, they are taught by osmosis to be dishonest and not to be consistent. Rarely like in the case of Farhan Quareshi can one put their feeling s aside and think for themselves!” I start to agree you. It seems so. It is what I notice and am wonder about them. Ali Sina seems right about some Muslim, not ALL muslims. He said “…Muslims are zombies…” I have to admit that some christians are zombie too. At least, you are not zombie (SMILE)

@Cestusdei,
Thank you for share your experience with a muslim.

@My two Sense,
“Muslim still have to follow the pillar of Islam” is still not guarantee them to go paradise. It is up to Allah’s decision. For example, Osama Bin Laden went to hell?? Maybe not. Although, he is one of some worst Muslims and his followers kill many muslims. Actually, it is up to Allah. Allah could make the decision that Osama Bin Laden went to the heaven.

donna60 said...

Mahdi and Traeh and Kim
Everyone has posted some great verses here. Plus there are plenty of Christian sites that discuss grace, and frankly Christian denominations disagree with each other, and with scripture, so you both should really go to all kinds of sites, look up the verses that these sites use, and see if it makes sense, because listening to all of us at once is going to make you crazy.

In so far as the matter of grace, think in terms of you and your father when you were children, you and your supervisor at work, you and your elected officials, you and your circuit court judge. Because God calls himself these offices in regards to us. He calls Himself the Husband of the church.

So what is the best relationship you have with your fathers or your bosses? Obviously you mess up sometimes. Even though you know you are supposed to obey them, and you have every intention to, you goof up.

I've spilled expensive reagents on the lab table, turned out wrong results that had to be corrected, --all kinds of things, that I hadn't planned to do, but I was thoughtless or not as careful as I should have been, and made mistakes.

Okay, so how do I want my boss, (or my parents--fill in the blank) to treat me? --I want them to give me grace and mercy.

I'm not trying to take them for a ride, or abuse their grace, I just made a mistake, and I would like to not be punished. Instead I would like them to forgive me.

Exactly like the bosses that we love the best, because of their kindness and understanding, God forgives us when we are careless or thoughtless, and not thinking like we should have. He gives us another chance, and even chances after that.

--Not if we are actively rebelling and looking for a fight. Then these same bosses will give us big, big trouble.

But for the carelessness words and sinful behavior we catch ourselves in daily, we can examine ourselves, and confess to him our sins, and ask for His forgiveness, on a daily basis, and always be given it.

And don't forget, that the reason He has this relationship with us, is because He loves us. Like fathers love their children, and Husbands love their wives. Except He is a perfect Lover.

What He asks from us in return, which we aren't as faithful as Him to supply, is that we offer grace to others. The way we treat other people is supposed to reflect the way He treats us.

That covers every single sin in the book, from fornication to slander. All sins as described in the NT texts can be classified into two ways that we neglect love. --Loving God with all of our hearts, and loving our neighbors just like we do ourselves.

Art said...

I've always seen it as not a requirement, but a fact. John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."

Christians do not do works for any sort of reward, we do not do good works to become closer to God. It is the other way around. In coming closer to God through Jesus, we do good works.

If you continue to do evil with careless disregard simply because you believe that Jesus will save you, then you truly have not been saved, because according to 1 Corinthians 3:16, the Holy Spirit dwells within us because of our relationship. And truly, anyone who holds this attitude that they can sin and revel in it without caring must not have the Spirit inside of them, and if they do not have the Spirit inside of them, it is because they do not truly have a relationship with Jesus, and therefore are not saved.

This is what is meant by 1 John 2:3-6. If you have been saved, you will keep the commandments or try your best by virtue of being saved. Obviously we will continue to sin, we as humans are not righteous. We are sinful beings. But anyone who would revel in sinlessness because they think they'll be saved at the end of the day has not truly been saved, despite what they think.

In short: Jesus leads to doing good, doing good does not lead to Jesus.

David Wood said...

Traeh,

I think you missed the point. You wrote:

David said: "According to John, (1) we've all sinned; (2) if we confess our sins, God will forgive us; and (3) if we continue sinning, we don't really know Jesus..."

A question I have with #3: Don't all Christians continue sinning? And does that mean, according to the statement above, that no Christians know Jesus?


When I wrote (1)-(3), I simply reported what the verses say. Then I interpreted each statement in light of the others, to bring out what John really means. Given that John says we've all sinned, and that God will forgive us if we confess our sins, (3) can't mean that Christians are sinless. Indeed, I showed that John must mean that Christians don't continue to freely sin (i.e. keep sinning, thinking that it's okay). I'm not sure which part was unclear.

Toll said...

The sinful nature is not removed so it inevitably leads to sin. However the Christian does not sin willingly or gladly; he does not assent to sin that it is good. Romans 7 is the present condition of Christians I believe. The Christian does not overcome to the extent that he can not sin; however he does overcome to the extent that sin does not have dominion over him. This leads to the seemingly contradictory statements of John's epistle in my view.
Repentance is necessary because we have grieved and offended our Father in heaven and we should acknowledge this to him.

Mahdi said...

@Purple Marquise
Our purpose in life is to serve Allah (God) and to serve humanity for the sake of Allah swt. Our goal is Paradise. Islam is to submit to your one and only Creator in order to find peace within yourselves and to establish a close bond with Allah. So your beliefs are somewhat similar to ours, to seek God's pleasure in us and to lead meaningful lives. The reason why we don't set up any intermediaries between us and God (such as Jesus and The Holy Spirit) is because it destroys our relationship with God and distances us from him, which is why you'll see Christians praising Jesus more than God. Also it would help if you could separate your writings with some paragraphs, as it gets difficult to read your posts if they're just a wall of text.

@Radical Moderate
Actually I started writing on this blog first, then went to the other. I have seen you on more than one occasion insulting and ridiculing Islam, the Prophet (peace be upon him) and fellow Muslims. What happened to the "love your neighbor, turn your cheek" teachings that you are supposed to abide by?

@donna60
That is a good point you raise. I suppose certain sects might have different beliefs about the concept of salvation. I remember the Roman Catholic Church used to believe that Jesus' absolved all your sins regardless of who you were and what you did, an idea that a lot of users here
seem to oppose.

@goethechosemercy
Forgiveness in Islam comes from feeling remorse from your actions and mending your ways, as Allah swt says in the Noble Qu'ran to replace evil with good. I don't know what you mean by 'magical mindset'. In fact I don't recall mentioning anything about magic.

@My Two Sense.
Mahdi is my real name. It was given to me at birth. The Mahdi that you're referring to is the awaited Muslim leader who has yet to appear. We as Muslims believe that a significant Khalifah will appear near the Day of Judgement. He will arrive at a time when the entire world will be engulfed in severe afflictions to help restore peace and justice after it had been filled with strife and tyranny. Even though he will partake in battles, he won't " spread Islam by the sword". No doubt you've noticed the current turmoil in a lot of Islamic countries such as Egypt, Syria and Libya. A lot of Muslims are seeing this as signs of his appearance. When he does appear, we Muslims will pledge our allegiance to him.

I certainly do agree with you about people's behavior, which is why we encourage Muslims to straighten up and get our act together, or else we will never succeed.

@curly
Any person who has an ounce of faith will eventually be taken out of the Hellfire and placed into Paradise. Just because you have faith, does not mean you're automatically saved from punishment, since Allah swt tells the believers to save themselves from the fire. It gives us Muslims an incentive to continue doing good.

ned said...

Kim said...
How does the Holy Spirit dwell in you if it's a third of God. That's utter blasphemy in my view.

Kim the real blasphemy is when you just make a negative comment about Holy Spirit. Where do you read Holy Spirit as 3rd of God.

About repentance; my learned brother have said so much but in my humble opinion a true believer leads a life style of repentance. A true believer does not ever plan a sin in heart. Jesus said that out of the good treasure in your heart you take out good things.

Being human a believer may stumble but it will not and should not be a deliberate. A believer will be reminded of the sin and will and should repent of the sin. He or she will not continue in sin meaning not life style of sin. The sin can be any small sin, even in heart.

It is only Jesus who once comes in your heart as Saviour that takes you on this journey so that He can present you to His Father as sinless person. No one can achieve this standard in human strength or through any other religion. Jesus remained sinless Himself and therefore has the Ability and Power to make you a sinless person. One needs to be humble to repent sin and obedient to follow Jesus.

D335 said...

------------------------------------
Story of The Judge
------------------------------------
A Hanging Judge in the west known for his zero-tolerance against crime, received an unfortunate news. His son been charged with murder that his son may or may not commit. Let say hypothetically his son did it for all the massive circumstantial evidences against him. The judge is known to be just and also swift, therefore set a date for execution 3 days after the sentencing. For it is his own son, the city allows visitations for the judge to meet his son for the last time.
On the third day, the march for execution begin. The criminal's head was covered and he was strolled toward the galley. A rope on his neck and the last word was questioned by the executor. The criminal shook his head no. And ... short drop and sudden stop.

The executor approach the body and was surprised. It was not the judge's son, but the judge himself.
------------------------------------
MORAL OF THE STORY

The judge in this story is an analogy of God, while his son is us.

For God love us (through grace) like His own children,
- therefore should you maim or kill your children when they did wrong /trespasses? That would be Just! but no mercy.
- would you just forgive your children every time they sinned and therefor set an example for them that sin is alright? That would Merciful, but Unjust.
- have a father no desire to teach his children the way of the righteous? if God love us like a father, would a father not sacrifice himself to save his children?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Problem of Sin is not addressed only in Jesus time. In the Old Testament, God bring forth justice after a PERIODE OF GRACE. That is God's work. It is perfect. Through our eyes we see a crime and punishment (with possibility of rehabilitation) and to some others God's way is viewed as "angry" - "malevolent" full with dying babies and burning houses. But the "masterpiece" was done when Jesus died for our sins.

But why Jesus as Son of God /the Holy Trinity would sacrifice His Divine Right towards a man's sin and therefor man's existence?
I dunno if there is anything like it. But I know Christ will be known for Love. Just. Mercy. Guidance. Light.

My Two Sense said...

curly - “Muslim still have to follow the pillar of Islam” is still not guarantee them to go paradise. It is up to Allah’s decision."

True. I was merely trying to say to Kim that it's not enough to say you're a Christian or a Muslim. You can't just "talk the talk". You have to "walk the walk".

Kim - Yes, for Muslims the Trinity is blasphemy. I guess I would ask as a non-religious person, if God/Allah is all powerful why couldn't he split himself from one into three if he wanted to?

Here's what I don't understand and maybe someone can explain it to me because between both Christianity and Islam I find this as a weird contradiction.

On the one hand, God is omnipotent, but is only "good". He split Himself into 3 beings: the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit. His Son died for your sins and you can only get to Heaven by believing in Him.

On the other hand, Allah is only one and to say otherwise is a sin (does that mean he CAN'T split Himself into 3 which puts a limitation on Him or that he WON'T split Himself into 3 which keeps him limitless?). He is omnipotent, and to say that he is "good" puts limitations on an omnipotent God. Muhammad is his Prophet, but it seems Muhammad the Prophet is supposed to be given "higher treatment (and status)" than Jesus the Son of God is to the Christians.

I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. I hope I worded it right.

Kim said...

Allah's justice isn't flawed. He takes into account every detail about the human's life and makes a decision. He is also Merciful as His Mercy overpowered his Wrath. He is the perfect judge and He does not require a man more or less his "Son"to be slaughtered.
And remember, the belief in the heart of any human being of, " There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his slave and messenger" is very heavy and dear to Him.

Kim said...

And if anyone is going to paste Hadith on here, give me as much commentary on it as possible, if you can. Otherwise you are misunderstanding it and misrepresenting it. I just realized how badly David misrepresented the first two hadiths after I read the commentary on it :)

John 8:24 said...

Mahdi & Kim,

First a question: do you know any genuinely practicing Christian as your friend? As I read your comments, it dawned on me that your misunderstanding comes from your ignorance of who a real Christian is. You might be confusing with the liberal western atheists or agnostics and the nominal, name-sake and unbelieving Christians.

I talked to a number of Muslims over the years and almost everyone thinks that every westerner or anyone who wears a cross is a Christian! That is so untrue. Many westerners are not Christians. Many don't go to church or believe in Jesus. They haven't even read the Bible. In fact there are quite a few atheists and agnostics in the west and some of them are quite anti-Christian. And wearing a cross doesn't make a person Christian! It is a fashion symbol so some just wear it. Some Muslims whom I met have lived in the west for 10 or 20 years and have not met a real Christian. They get their impression of Christianity from the Hollywood movies and the immorality they notice here. They are shocked when I reveal that Hollywood is not run by Christians and infact quite the opposite - that it is filled with people who hate Christians. It will be difficult to get a job in the Hollywood if you are a conservative Christian. The fact is that many Christians grieve the immorality in the secular west. It is quite likely that you never got to know a real Christian.

Of course, even real Christians sin (do you think that real Muslims don't?). But when a real Christian sins he or she would be immediately sorry, repent and seek forgiveness from God. The difference is that of a pig and a sheep falling into dirt hole. A pig would enjoy the dirt and stay there but a sheep will want to come out and be clean. Don't confuse the two.

I find most Muslims to be quite hypocritical and prideful. Every sin that you see in the west is also prevalent in the Muslim countries. There is adultery, prostitution, pornography, alcoholism, stealing, cheating, murder, abuse, rape etc albeit some of them are done in secret, in dark and pushed under the carpet and never reported. What ever morality is there is enforced by moral police of the Muslim community and by the Sharia law in the country. The day you stop enforcing the laws and give freedom to all Muslims the real picture will emerge. In spite of the repression, every sin under the sun still happens there. And in some cases in far greater amount than in the west: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/12/data-shows-pakistan-googling-pornographic-material/

And what about lying, pride, lust, envy, greed, malice, selfishness, bitterness, anger, covetousness & other sins committed in the mind? Don't you think God sees them or judges you for them? The morality of the Bible is far greater than the Quran or Islam. Following Jesus morally is far difficult than to follow Muhammad. Go and learn about it and may God open your eyes. God will not judge according to your standard but to his standard. He will judge both what is seen and unseen even the deep motivations of your heart.

Neverrepayevilwithevil said...

I was once like Kim and Mahdi, Couldn't get my head around substitutional atonement. I struggled for years but then one day-the veil over my eyes fell off and I wept and wept. It occurred to me that I was running from God because of the darkness in my heart. The price was fully paid for on the cross at Calvary, just accept this free gift.You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. God bless you all

CristoTeAma said...

Traeh said..
"A question I have with #3: Don't all Christians continue sinning? And does that mean, according to the statement above, that no Christians know Jesus?"

We sin because we fail sometimes for our flesh weakness, but we do not think that it is ok doing that, a truth Christian can't say "i believe in Jesus christ but i keep fornicating because it is not wrong, or i keep fornicating because Jesus has forgiven my fornication already, so i can keep sinning". That's what John tried to explain, if you think like that, you haven't known Jesus because Jesus commands us to stay away from sinning, but we are humans and we will fail sometimes on our road, and when that comes to happen, we will know that we did wrong, we will repent because we will know that we failed to God, we will ask forgivness, and he will clean us for that sin. And just like David explained, he forgives us for our sins because he is mercy, yet his justice states that those sins must be paid, but thx to Jesus that he already paid for those sins we are forgiven through our SINCERE repentance and faith on him.

taomeano said...

Kim said

1 John v9-10
Seems to me that you can confess your sins, but it doesn't say anything about true repentance. You added that in there. All I can understand from that is if you sin, you should confess and feel that God forgave that particular sin. Doesn't say that you should stop doing it in order to be forgiven. The Bible doesn't give clear-cut things on how to live life the right way

Now Kim
Look at the following verse in the book of Proverbs:

"He who covers his sins will not prosper but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy" Proverbs 28:13.

Now is there any doubt about what the bible teaches about sins and what the believer should do about them ? The above scripture says "forsake" the sin then God will have mercy on you. Do you understand the word "forsake"? This is what the dictionary says: Two meanings are given :
1. To give up (something formerly held dear); renounce
"2. To leave altogether; abandon


ok now, let us substitute the dictionary meanings into the verse,
the verse will read like this

He who covers his sins will not prosper but he who (gives up the sins, renounces,leaves it altogether,abandons them will have mercy.

Now therein lies true repentance. Your assertion that "the bible doesn't give clear cut things on how to live life the right way" is absolutely false. The Bible is very clear about how to live life, but you simply refuse to see it. When you decide to truly seek God, He will show you the truth as our LORD JESUS said "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32.

I am still praying for you Kim that God will deliver you from the darkness of Islam and bring you to the light of Jesus Christ as Jesus said in John 8:12 "I am the light of the world and he who follows me shall never walk in darkness"

donna60 said...

I can't imagine any Muslim who blogs on a Christian website would be anything less than an open, sincere person, with a refreshing and elating natural curiosity and intellect. I praise them all.

Kim said...

Every person should be responsible for their sin. Even if one man wants to take all the punishment for it, that wouldn't be justice would it? The other guys get away with it as long as they believe that the man saved them from their punishment. The worst that can happen to them is go to a purgatory. Right?
I don't see the justice in that.

Also, if Jesus died for EVERYBODY'S sins and took the punishment for ALL of those sins, by dying on a cross, is that equal to the punishment one would receive in Hell for their punishment? I highly doubt it. I'm still confused.

donna60 said...

Kim, the word purgatory isn't in scripture. Every human being on earth has one of two eternal destinies.

In regards to each of us paying for our own sins, the fact is that we can't. Well, we can, but that means that we are doomed to hell. Because that is what payment requires--to be eternally separated from our Father and Creator.

I want to ask you this small question. Suppose I accidently threw a base-ball through my neighbor's window, and I couldn't afford to pay for it. I owed it, the neighbor knew I owed it and the judge ruled that I owed it, but I just didn't have the money to pay for it.

And suppose, you were my friend, or perhaps my sister, and you happened to have the money to pay for my debt. Would you give me the money to pay for this window? I suspect you would. I think you would out of love or compassion for me. I think you more than likely do many kind things for people out of love and compassion.

Why would you think that God was not capable of at least as much love as the human-beings He created? As a matter-of-fact, why would you think that His love and compassion wouldn't be perfect--and more than able to pay our debts?

curly said...

Madhi,
Thank you (with SMILE) for answer my question. I think I understand you. I want to ask you with a very short question because I make sure I understand you correctly and clearly.
Question: A Hindu guy have a faith despite he believe in many gods. A Hindu guy will take out of hellfire and into a paradise because his faith ?? Just say yes or no.
thank

CristoTeAma said...

Kim said..
"Every person should be responsible for their sin."
Tell that to allah then because i also read the comments on the hadiths David posted and i don't see why you say he lied on those, but here is another one:

Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665---Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire.

Then Kim also said..
"Also, if Jesus died for EVERYBODY'S sins and took the punishment for ALL of those sins, by dying on a cross, is that equal to the punishment one would receive in Hell for their punishment? I highly doubt it. I'm still confused."

I recommend you to read the verses i quote you in an older post about the sacrificial system, and if you don't like it, you can blame the OT and NT God for being that way, and again it would show that Islam has nothing to do with Abraham, Moses, or their God YHWH. The sacrificial system is about the sacrifice and the blood for the atonement of sins, it's not about the way you kill the animal doing it the same thing satan or demons will do to you in hell, it's like Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death", your sins send you to the eternal death, but the way they could avoid that was through the sacrificial system, so they could clean their sins through the blood of the animals, putting their sins on them, and killing them as they were death on their sins.

Leviticcus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul"

ned said...

Kim,
Only Jesus is the key to Eternal life with God. Your prophet surely cannot be anyone's key to Heaven. Without debating I conclude that a tree is known by the fruit it bears, Jesus said it. When we say God is Holy, can you say ur prophet led a holy life style ever. All know he did not and then how can he be the one making any claims about God. Jesus on the other hand was righteous and blameless and one can rely on His True Word cause He is the Truth. God wants us to leave the sinful life style and follow His commands. God says that He does not delight for anyone to perish but wants all to be saved. Jesus is the completion of this promise of God for us. In Jesus we become righteous since we do not plan to sin and be opposite to commands of Jesus and God. Now that is the experience for those who accept Jesus. In the book of John chapter 6 verse 43 Jesus tells, 43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.' So if one is sincere in searching God and His righteous, he or she will be led to Jesus.

My Two Sense said...

You know what KIM... there's enough Christians on here quoting you scripture. I'm done helping them. Instead I'm going to recommend a series of books by Daniel Quinn called Ishmael, The Story of B, and My Ishmael. I know... they're fiction, but the author makes some interesting points about man and "revealed religions" that I think are at least worth pondering. Again I state that man has been on the Earth for millions of years, but "revealed religions" only go back to 4000+- years.

Mahdi - fair enough that's your name, though I would still argue that there are enough Muslims that believe it the way I told it with the "sword of Islam" and the "black flags" and all (I've heard it told that way from SOME Muslims as well)... and there are hypocrites in every religion, not just the "Christian sinners with cross necklaces."

Good debates this topic though. In my humble opinion anyway...

My Two Sense said...

KIM "And remember, the belief in the heart of any human being of, " There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his slave and messenger" is very heavy and dear to Him."

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father except through me" is what Christians believe in their hearts. Are you saying that is less dear to Him?

Aargh. I said I wasn't helping the Christians anymore...

taomeano said...

Kim

We are waiting for you to post the commentaries that you said you read on the hadiths that David Wood posted. If you do not post the commentaries for all to see then I will conclude that you are not serious about having an honest and open dialogue about Islam and Christianity.

The Purple Marquise said...

@ Mahdi right away I apologize for the wall of text in my previous comment and I appreciate it a lot that you persevered through it and read it never the less. I will try to be more careful this time.

You say: "Our purpose in life is to serve Allah (God) and to serve humanity for the sake of Allah swt. Our goal is Paradise."

So now I ask you what kind of "Paradise"? The notion of Paradise is so vastly different in Islam than it is in Christianity. Our paradise is perfect unimpeded communion with God. Yours is a pleasure island with rather illicit and distasteful pleasures all of which are banned on earth and since I used to be a muslim before I can tell you this was always a question mark for me. I could never understand the logic of why these activities that are strictly forbidden on earth are suddenly going to be allowed IN HEAVEN of all places! So can you explain to me why your God has no problem with fornication and gluttony and even drinking wine in heaven while he thinks it is appalling on earth?

In fact I asked this from my religion teacher once when I was in school in my home country and she told me that "the reason that these activities are banned here on earth is just to test us!" It means that there is nothing inherently wrong with them according to Allah. My teacher further said that "they just happened to be arbitrarily banned by him on earth to kind of see how much we are ready to give up for him."

That, my friend, is a very problematic view since it flies right against the notion of a holy God who doesn't designate things as sin willy nilly but because those act designated as sin are against His holy nature. And the notion of "testing" people goes against His omniscience since you test people because you don't know the results in advance. You don't know if they can manage or not. Otherwise why testing if you already know how committed people are. So if you have a better and more logically coherent explanation to give for your God's willy nilly attitude towards sin please let me know.


To be continued,,,,,,,

The Purple Marquise said...

@ Mahdi....Continuation:

You also say: " The reason why we don't set up any intermediaries between us and God (such as Jesus and The Holy Spirit) is because it destroys our relationship with God and distances us from him, which is why you'll see Christians praising Jesus more than God. "

My friend, we don't have ANY intermediary between us and God. We believe Jesus IS God and The Holy Spirit IS God. When the Holy Spirit of God overtakes you God Himself overtakes you not something else which is coming between you and God and stopping you from experiencing Him directly. Also when we say that Jesus died for our sin and we need to believe on Him to be saved we mean God himself so graciously and condescendingly took the form of a man and endured the pain of the cross and died for our sins! God Himself, not some intermediary non-devine entity which now is going to intercede and plead for us with God.

On the contrary to what you suggest in Christianity we have no one coming between us and God, but more than that we see that God himself come towards us as well. So it is a move on his part as well and his gracious and very condescending effort to bring us and Him closer so that we can know him intimately, since He knew that by our own efforts sinner and weak creatures that we are we could never move close enough towards him.

I know being raised in an Islamic milieu you will cry "blasphemy"!! But try to see the matter a bit more from a neutral perspective and you see that not only this is not blasphemous but it is one of the most beautiful concepts ever! It is not Us Christians who blaspheme and bring God down from his majesty. But it is He Himself who comes to us out of His love, out of His care for His creation! He knows we can never come to him on our own, so he comes to us. Isaiah 9:6 which was written centuries before the birth of Christ says: "He shall be called Emanuel, God With Us"

To be continued.......

The Purple Marquise said...

@ Mahdi:.... Continuation:

Now let's turn to Islam. You say you don't need intermediaries. Well... let's see: Your Prophet Muhammad couldn't even speak to God directly (and it can be done apparently since Moses is called Kalim Ullah for Allah had directly spoken to Him according to Quran) Muhammad needed the intervention of Angel Gabriel to communicate with God. Then what about Muslims?

You have in your Shahadatain both the belief in Allah as the only God and Muhammad as his messenger as a prerequisite for salvation. Tell me why? The Jews don't say no God but Yahweh and Moses was his prophet. When they accept Moses' law and concept of God that means automatically that they approve of Moses too already. No need to pledge personal allegiance to him while putting his name and importance next to Yahweh!

If we Christians allow ourselves to rely on Jesus and talk about Him saving us and singing praises to Him it is ONLY because by virtue of His claims of divinity in the Gospels and His subsequent resurrection from the dead we KNOW that He is God! If we thought he is a mere man we would have NEVER allowed ourselves to behave in this manner towards Him and thinking believing in him is a prerequisite for Salvation.

To be continued......

curly said...

@Kim and everyone,
You said "if anyone is going to paste Hadith on here...realized how badly David misrepresented the first two hadiths after I read the commentary on it"
You have to prove David Wood wrong with another source. You are just cant say David Wood is wrong. We do not accept your argument because you are simple Muslim. Maybe we think you are brainwash by Imam or parent. Why? We are independent thinking. How you prove David Wood wrong? simple show us !!!
I explain you with an example. Juana hear the rumor that Carlos is gay because Carlos love Ahmed so much. Juana check Carlos. Carlos said that he is not gay. He do love Ahmed because Carlos call by Jesus Christ that he love everyone. Conclusion: the rumor is false and rumor use out of context. Get it?
Frankly, Kim, I have noticed you that Search for Truth often challenged you. You almost never response it with directly. Most, you run away from it.
From on, you want us to respect you with good credibilty? Prove us and show us what David Wood was wrong. We are still love you. You object that we love you but do not respect you that do not make sense!? No, for example, I do love my brother. My brother is sometime lie. Lie cause me to lose respect for him, but still love him because he is my brother. We do love you because you are our sister. If you do not show us why David Wood is wrong, we assumed you are not honest that all like exactly Taomeano say!
From on, please do NOT JUST SAY David Wood is wrong.

The Purple Marquise said...

@ Mahdi....Continuation:

No Christian thinks believing in the prophethood of Isaiah or Zakaria or Joshua or even Moses is a prerequisite for salvation! In fact we only have to believe in God the father, Jesus as His Son and His sacrifice on the cross and The Holy Sprit to be saved! Of course almost all of us believe in those prophets but that is only because Jesus testified to the accuracy of the Old Testament and we believe what Jesus says. But believing in these prophets is a secondary issue for us and it never crossed out mind to bring it into our creed!!

But Muslims on the one hand say that Muhammad was a mere man even though he was a prophet but in the next breath they say things like "Salle Allahu Alayhe Wa Sallam" every time they utter his name, a kind of praise that we Christians think is utterly blasphemous and out of place for a mere human being! We Christians would NEVER allow ourselves to sing such praises to ANY man, be he a prophet, or a saint or a normal person and if we do it to Jesus it is because we believe HE IS GOD!!

There are also Hadiths in which Muhammad claims to be the intercessor for his people. If a mere man can be intercessor for his people then I guess you shouldn't think we think less of God if we allow Him to atone us Himself by His own sacrifice without the intervention of any human being.

Your name is Mahdi. I don't know if you are Shia, since this name is a favorite of the Shias, because if you are Shia then I have a lot more to tell you about how your coreligionists cling to the graves of their martyred Imamas and beg them to intercede between them and Allah, not just to forgive their sins and take them into heaven, but also to cure their illnesses and bring success to their business and find a good husband for their daughters, etc....

Besides I really want to ask you how you can be even close to a God that is not visible, touchable, audible, and tangible in ANY way, and if you even try to imagine him or fathom him even in your mind you are committing a sin and a blasphemy!? Then what is this God? How do you relate to Him? Even the Jews had the tabernacle where the presence of God was tangible. Their God is a Spirit that is tangible and can dwell within people and amongst His creation. But What is your God? What is Allah? How can you be close and relate to someone whom you don't know, don't feel and can't fathom and can't approach?

You say you want to serve and please your god I and laude you for that. But I don't understand you. You submit to someone and serve someone that you don't know and CAN NOT know! That is problematic. What if He is not good? What if he is not honest and will condemn you to a life of slavery for him and then never send you to any Paradise? You cannot know if you don't know Him personally. The fact that he has created the universe ( if in fact He did) only tells you that he is very powerful. But doesn't tell you if he is good and honest. And what about the end game? Suppose even He sends you to His sin-infested Paradise which is no more than a pleasure island, what then? You still don't know him and have no relationship with him.

So I would appreciate if you answer my questions, but before doing so really think about what I have written sincerely and carefully. Thank you very much for you patience with my longwinded texts.

D335 said...

@Kim

I will try to make it much simpler. What is in your view:

"Allah's justice isn't flawed. He takes into account every detail about the human's life and makes a decision. He is also Merciful as His Mercy overpowered his Wrath. He is the perfect judge and He does not require a man more or less his "Son"to be slaughtered."

The problem of Sin, how would you combine Justice and Mercy, provide me an example of any sin and how would you suppose "Allah" will deal with it.

(I remind you, people will try to rebuke you with the basis that the two traits cannot co-exist without the sacrifice of the judge himself.)

simple_truth said...

Kim said...

"Every person should be responsible for their sin."

That is what the Bible teaches.

"Even if one man wants to take all the punishment for it, that wouldn't be justice would it?"

Since we all sin and there is no one perfect as God demands, we need to be saved from the eternal consequences of those sins. Since we can't do it ourselves, God must do it for us somehow. But, God just can't look the other way or just simply say, I forgive you. That would not erase your sins; for, it could only forgive them. Forgiving something doesn't erase the sinful actions that needed forgiveness. God has to bring justice to what was done. If God then brings justice against you, you will die without being saved since His standard of righteousness was breached by your sin(s). Given that predicament, how can you expect a Holy and righteous God to allow you into His presence without compromising His essence? The bottom line is that man's sins must be accounted for and justified before God while yet seeing us as not having any blemishes on our record. That is where Jesus comes into the picture. Jesus, God incarnate, was that bridge whereby our sins could be dealt with and atoned for without us being eternally condemned, provided that we accepted his atonement and commit ourselves to obey Christ by sinning no more. That action requires true repentance.

"The other guys get away with it as long as they believe that the man saved them from their punishment. The worst that can happen to them is go to a purgatory. Right?"

Wrong! Jesus died for our sins in order that they could be forgiven; but, our sins aren't forgiven until we repent. Repentance means to turn away from something and turn to something else. In the case of sins, we turn away from our sin(s) and turn towards Christ who will help us to become perfected over time; however, we will not become perfected in our lifetime. As someone else said, it is a work in progress throughout our lifetimes.

"I don't see the justice in that."

I don't see justice in that either since you don't understand what Christ and Christianity is about. Its time to study and get your understanding corrected so that you won't continue to spew incorrect information about Christians and Christianity.

"Also, if Jesus died for EVERYBODY'S sins and took the punishment for ALL of those sins, by dying on a cross, is that equal to the punishment one would receive in Hell for their punishment? I highly doubt it. I'm still confused."

You will remain confused as long as you see Christianity through the lens of Islam. Surely, if you want me to see Islam, you wouldn't want me to see it through the eyes of Christianity or any other religion. Think about that for a moment. You think that since Jesus died for our sins, we are forgiven. Forgiveness doesn't happen until we recognize what Jesus did for us and then accept his free gift of salvation through true repentance.

Deleting said...

@ My two sense
You're not helping the christians you're proclaiming the gospel.

donna60 said...

My Two Sense,

You are driving me crazy, and you are beginning to drive yourself crazy too. Why don't you just accept your destiny, my friend, and start researching churches that practice the word of God?-- because this is a promise that God made to you.


Acts 17:26-27
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Neverrepayevilwithevil said...

I would like Mahdi and Kim to explain their concept of Heaven and Hell as described in the koran. Is that where your prophet and allah are guiding you to? If it is so, I don't want any part of this Deity. Who is this allah? May Almighty God the father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ open your eyes to the Truth that is knocking at the doors of your hearts.

Nakdimon said...

KIM,

If I understand you correctly, since Muhammad was forgiven for his past AND future sins, does this mean that he was free to sin all he wanted?

Incredible...

str8wire said...

I once was a stranger to grace and to God,

I knew not my danger, and felt not my load;

Though friends spoke in rapture of Christ on the tree,

Jehovah Tsidkenu was nothing to me.

I oft read with pleasure, to soothe or engage,

Isaiah's wild measure and John's simple page;

But e'en when they pictured the blood-sprinkled tree

Jehovah Tsidkenu seemed nothing to me.

Like tears from the daughters of Zion that roll,

I wept when the waters went over His soul;

Yet thought not that my sins had nailed to the tree

Jehovah Tsidkenu—'twas nothing to me.

When free grace awoke me, by light from on high,

Then legal fears shook me, I trembled to die;

No refuge, no safety in self could I see—

Jehovah Tsidkenu my Savior must be.

My terrors all vanished before the sweet name;

My guilty fears banished, with boldness I came

To drink at the fountain, life-giving and free—

Jehovah Tsidkenu is all things to me.

Jehovah Tsidkenu! my treasure and boast,

Jehovah Tsidkenu! I ne'er can be lost;

In thee I shall conquer by flood and by field—

My cable, my anchor, my breastplate and shield!

Even treading the valley, the shadow of death,

This "watchword" shall rally my faltering breath;

For while from life's fever my God sets me free,

Jehovah Tsidkenu my death-song shall be.

- Robert Murray McCheyne

str8wire said...

When you are aware that your sins nailed Christ to the cross, you don't make light of sins. But according to the bible (psalm 130)you will fear God (verse 4) and not with a slavish fear but a childish fear. Like a child that loves his father out of thankfulness for His atonement on the cross. For we have sinned and if He wouldn't have died on the cross we all would be lost for ever.

3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

4 But [there is] forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.

6 My soul [waiteth] for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: [I say, more than] they that watch for the morning.

7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD [there is] mercy, and with him [is] plenteous redemption.

str8wire said...

But even after you are born again it is impossible to be free of sin. But those sins keep a child of God close to God because he needs God's atonement every day.

Like Paul states in Romans 7.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

curly said...

@The Purple Marquise,
Your explainable to Madhi is beautiful. Hey, I am little surprise that you WAS muslim. I have a question for you. How you start to believe Jesus Christ that he is God instead prophet? Moreover, trinity !

My Two Sense said...

donna - I consider myself an Agnostic now. I did go to Sunday School and church the first half of my life after all, so I can't help but remember (and be affected by) the gist and I remember many verses... though I don't always remember the specific book or specific verse number. :)

There are obviously plenty of people posting in this thread who are much better at that than me. I am definitely interested in the comparative aspects that come up between Christianity and Islam.

I'm sorry if I'm driving you crazy. I'm not driving myself crazy. I never promised to be consistent. Perhaps I am just biased towards Christianity because I was brought up that way, as Kim who likely was brought up in an Islamic background is biased towards Islam.

The Purple Marquise said...

@Curly: Thank you brother (or sister!) for your kind words. Sorry if it is off topic but since Curly asked I will share my testimony here. I was born in Iran in a very moderate (i.e. nominal) Muslim family who never pushed me to be religious, but like all Iranian children I got a heavy dose of pro-Islamic propaganda and Quranic teaching in the school every day.

But I can say it never really worked on me. I was not a conscious apostate until I was in high school. But I doubted Islam since the beginning because of its inconsistencies and lack of logic and the fact that our teachers were not able to answer ANY rational question with a rational answer. And I always had tons of questions and always pestered the religion teachers with them. Some of them actually liked me very much and tried to answer me to the best of their abilities (which was not much) but some hated me for my brazen questions and told me to cut it out or I will be soon on my way to hell!

So I eventually lost my faith both in Islam and in God. But later on because of my love of Western Classical music I started to get interested in Christian culture and eventually through the beauty of music my faith in God was restored and then I asked the God, that now I could feel His presence, to tell me what religion I should follow. That very same night I saw a dream where first I saw a big beautiful blue lake were some men were fishing with their hands. The lake had some barbed wire fence around it. But the men looked at me and said: "Come here and fish with us" I said: "But there are fences around the lake I cannot pass!" but they kept insisting enthusiastically and as soon as I took one step forward towards that lake I appeared magically on the other side of the fence and in the waters of the lake. And it was beautiful! There was more in this dream but in the end I met Jesus and I saw a big sign of cross on my chest!

When I woke up I knew for sure what I had to do. I had to find a Bible in my language of Farsi. It was not an easy task since Bibles are banned in my country. But with the help of God I managed to find an underground church were I could get my hand on a Bible!

....to be continued

The Purple Marquise said...

@ Curly..... continuation:
When I woke up I knew for sure what I had to do. I had to find a Bible in my language of Farsi. It was not an easy task since Bibles are banned in my country. But with the help of God I managed to find an underground church were I could get my hand on a Bible!

And what a wonderful thing it was! I read the Gospels and got acquainted with the REAL Jesus, not that phony watered down Jesus of the Quran! For the first time I understood why he was called The Messiah! Muslims call Him Masih but they have no clue what so ever what this title even mean! They think it is some sort of honorary title or something indicating that he is really really great! But they don't know that Messiah indicates that he is The King of Kings! The Annoynted One and was always understood to be the Savior! But Muslim Jesus saved nothing and no one! His title has no meaning and no substance.

Anyway... for the first time I read and understood what exactly The Cross means to the Christians and why it is so important to them. I was shocked to see to what length Islam had gone to make the Cross irrelevant and nullified. That was very revealing of Islam's nature for me!

When I read the sermon on the mount for the first time I almost lost my breath from admiration! I asked myself: "Could religion be like this too???!!" All I knew about religion before was about Islam, about how to wash your body and how to make sure you are Taher (clean) for prayer and what will god do to you if you don't say your prayers on time and how to wash yourself after your period was over, blah blah.... It was dull unspiritual and very boring and uninspiring . All I knew about Muhammad was contrived stories that didn't ring true when they were about his exaggerated virtues and very revealing when it was about embarrassing episodes of his life.

But Jesus Christ was something else! He was REAL! There was no way I would miss that! He was SO charismatic and authentic and touching. I fell in love with Him! I knew instantly that he was no prophet but a very unique person! Of course it took me many years to learn correct Christian theology and the delicate stuff like the doctrines of incarnation and trinity and atonement and grace and things that you need a good teacher to spell out for you so that you can grow in knowledge and faith. But the relationship aspect of Christianity is instantly accessible to whomever opens his heart to Jesus! One may not know what is justification by faith or sanctification or the Trinity. But all the while he is benefiting from those concept because of the work of The Holy Spirit in his heart. Our brains need time to catch up with that! :D

So that is the way in which I found Christ or to say it more accurately Christ found me: ) Blessings

Traeh said...

Thanks David, for the reply.

curly said...

@ The Purple Marquise,
Wow, your testimony is so beautiful and amazing. I impress your english written. It seems your english written is better than mine. I am born and raise in English. Fact, I am Deaf. American Sign Language is my primary language. English is based on sound language. Anyway, have you learn English in Iran? and are you still live in Iran? You prefer to email me in private-felipeast@yahoo.com OR respond in this website. I think I will love to ask you more questions about your experience. I am fascinate with the testimony.
Your brother in Christ