Saturday, October 8, 2011

Kim Condemns Muhammad, Allah, and Islam

I've often pointed out that Muslims are so desperate to attack Christianity, they don't mind attacking Islam in the process. Kim is so focused on insulting the Lord Jesus Christ that she condemned her own prophet and her own god as well! She wrote:

Every person should be responsible for their sin. Even if one man wants to take all the punishment for it, that wouldn't be justice would it? The other guys get away with it as long as they believe that the man saved them from their punishment. The worst that can happen to them is go to a purgatory. Right? I don't see the justice in that.

Now let's review Muhammad's claim that Allah will punish Christians and Jews for the sins of Muslims:

Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.

Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.

According to Kim, these passages mean that Muslims accumulate many "minor sins" throughout their lives, ultimately producing a "mountain" of sins. Thus, Muhammad declares that Allah will punish Christians and Jews for the mountainous "minor sins" of Muslims. But wait a minute! Kim says that "every person should be responsible for their sin." This means that, according to Kim, Allah is immoral and unjust, and Muhammad is an evil deceiver for proclaiming such a wicked deity!

But wait, there's more! According to Kim, Muhammad can't communicate clearly. The quotations from the Hadith are clear and self-explanatory. However, Kim holds that Muhammad's words in the Hadith can't be understood without commentaries! Muslim commentators, then, are better communicators than Muhammad. Why, then, did Allah send a prophet who can't say what he means? Kim wrote:

And if anyone is going to paste Hadith on here, give me as much commentary on it as possible, if you can. Otherwise you are misunderstanding it and misrepresenting it. I just realized how badly David misrepresented the first two hadiths after I read the commentary on it :)

Notice that I "misrepresented" the Hadith by assuming that Muhammad means what he says. Unfortunately, I've never understood the Muslim exegetical principle that Allah and Muhammad often say the opposite of what they mean. Silly me!

Well, I'm calling you out, Kim. Give us the commentary on the Hadith that tells us what Muhammad "really" meant when he said that Allah will punish Christians and Jews for the sins of Muslims.

In the meantime, let's all think about how the simple, easy-to-understand "Religion of Peace" works. Allah sends the Qur'an, and Allah says that the Qur'an is perfectly clear and free of imperfections. Nevertheless, Muslims tell us that the Qur'an cannot be understood apart from the Hadith. So we go to the Hadith, and we find that Muhammad's clearest statements cannot be understood apart from the writings of Muslim commentators. But Muslim commentators contradict each other all the time, so it seems that we just can't understand Islam! And Kim says she's confused about Christianity!

24 comments:

Deleting said...

Kim and Mahdi would rather rely on lectures and sermons from their imams than actually read the Koran.
I doubt Kim even possess a Koran much less the hadiths.

search 4 truth said...

David you are trying to aplly logic, reason, critical thinking, and consistency with Islam and Muslims!

It will never happen. They are willfully ignorant! \

how much you wanna bet she backtracks to a previously refuted logical fallacy and misconception. If i were a betting man i would bet the farm!

Kim said...

"This means that, according to Kim, Allah is immoral and unjust, and Muhammad is an evil deceiver for proclaiming such a wicked deity!"

I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I am criticizing. More sarcasm from you I see.

Those two hadith do not mean that Allah will punish a Christian or a Jew for the sins of a Muslim. Your sarcasm is making me giggle right now, I love it!
I'm just making a point that certain hadiths were told in a context that we are unaware of and we shouldn't make it up. Muslim commentators may have different opinions on certain hadith.


Its meaning is that Allah forgives the sins of the Muslims and removes it from them and places it on the Jews and Christians its same amount due to their disbelief and sins, so He places him in the hellfire due to their deeds and not the sins of the Muslims, and there cannot be any other explanation for this due to God’s statement: “None shall carry the burden of another’ (Surah 17:15)

"And its possible that the sins being referred to (the ones that Allah will forgive from the Muslims) is because of the cause of the disbelievers, for if they caused it then it will be removed from the burden of Muslims by the mercy of Allah, and is placed on the disbelievers, for they instigated it, and whoever instigates a sin then he would receive a sin on his account for anyone that ever gets affected by it, and God knows best." (Imam Nawawi, Sharh Saheeh Muslim, Commentary on Hadith no. 4971, Source)

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=787&section=memberbase&subsection=memberarticles



Now let's refresh. The Quran has verses that are clear, and verses that may be unclear. If they're unclear we can refer to the hadith. If we still don't understand the hadith 100% we can make sure by looking at what the scholars say about the hadith.


Hope you understand now.

Kim said...

Why don't you just contact a Muslim scholar and try to understand from them? That's what I would do instead of confusing myself with snippets of hadith from different contexts and trying to make sense of them.

Kim said...

I dislike invading people's blogs, but many weird statements concerning Islam are made here.....

donna60 said...

Kim seems to really be trying to examine Christianity in light of Islam and vice-versa. She might really be a great candidate for a Islamic debate defender in a debate.

Perhaps Mary Jo would be willing to meet her in a formal debate, where Kim could put her viewpoints front and center, without worrying about being misquoted or misunderstood.

I would really like to watch her. I would definitely get around to watching that debate.

Baron Eddie said...

Maybe Kim can explain this to me

You said "Every person should be responsible for their sin."

My will is to be Christian and according to Islam I am kafir and mushrik and that is a big big sin ...

but wait sura 9:29 says "Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger "

Islamic logic says ...

It is OK to kill sinners but
it is not OK to die for sinners!

search 4 truth said...

@ kim
That is one of the most convoluted inarticulate, logical fallacy I have eve encountered.

You say:
Those two hadith do not mean that Allah will punish a Christian or a Jew for the sins of a Muslim.

But then we read it and it is exactly what it says!

Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.

Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.

But according to you it does not mean what it says. This is not sarcasm, this is you attempting to reinterpret what they clearly say.


Then you say "Its meaning is that Allah forgives the sins of the Muslims and removes it from them and places it on the Jews and Christians its same amount due to their disbelief and sins, so He places him in the hellfire due to their deeds and not the sins of the Muslims.

You just contradicted yourself. Because Allah does place it on the Jews. And there is no free will in Islam. Allah chooses whom he will lead and whom he will deceive and turn a stray! AND ALLAH MAKES OUR DEEDS SEEM FAIR!

How convoluted can you and Islam BE? iT'S insane!


If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance (32:13)

No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand (10:100)

And if Allah please He would certainly make you a single nation, but He causes to err whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases; and most certainly you will be questioned as to what you did (16:93)

See thou not that We have set the Evil Ones on against the unbelievers, to incite them with fury? (19:83)

As to those who do not believe in the hereafter, We have surely made their deeds fair-seeming to them, but they blindly wander on. (27:4) See also 39:23, 6:39, 35:8, 13:27 & 14:4)

And then after all of this, making our deeds seem fair, sending demons on us, placing veils over our hearts and minds and eyes and ears.

He then forgives your sins by sending us to hell for your actions!

Unbelievable!

Deleting said...

I said 'Kim and Mahdi would rather rely on lectures and sermons from their imams than actually read the Koran.
I doubt Kim even possess a Koran much less the hadiths.'

and then......

Kim said, 'Why don't you just contact a Muslim scholar and try to understand from them? That's what I would do instead of confusing myself with snippets of hadith from different contexts and trying to make sense of them.'

tee-hee! I was right!!!

CristoTeAma said...

I went to a "answering-Christianity" to check the rebuttal this muslim (don't know who) made to the sam shamoun's article about this issue, and there is some weird explainations, but what i found disturbing was this:

"Its meaning is that Allah forgives the sins of the Muslims and removes it from them and places it on the Jews and Christians its same amount due to their disbelief and sins, so He places him in the hellfire due to their deeds and not the sins of the Muslims, and there cannot be any other explanation for this due to God’s statement: “None shall carry the burden of another’ (Surah 17:15)

- So now i am the one confused, Allah takes the sins of Muslims and he places them on us because we sin? because our deeds? so it's like "they are already going to hell so let's put some more sins on them, it won't make any difference at this point" ? Also the same quotation says "Its meaning is that Allah forgives the sins of the Muslims and removes it from them and places it on the Jews and Christians" But doesn't it sounds like we become Jesus (to whom were put all the sins of the world and he paid for that) and Allah forgives Muslims for his mercy or because they made the Shahada and that's enough? the difference would be that we are sinners (not like Jesus)so it's ok to put the sins on us since we already are sinners?

David Wood said...

Kim,

Your commentary makes no sense. If Allah isn't punishing Christians and Jews for the sins of Muslims, what's the point of talking about them in the Hadith? Why does the verse say that Christians and Jews will take the Muslims' places in hell? Why not say, "Allah will forgive Muslims of their sins. But Christians and Jews will go to hell"? If that's what Muhammad had meant, couldn't he have said that? Can't your prophet say what he means? Does he need you to clarify his teachings for him?

CristoTeAma said...

Then he writes:

"and there cannot be any other explanation for this due to God’s statement: “None shall carry the burden of another’ (Surah 17:15)

Well there can be others:
1) Muhammad contradicted the spirit who told him this verse.
2) Muhamamd contradicted himself.
3) The muslims that learned this verse "by heart" missunderstood it, and when Zaid ask them about this verse they misquote Muhammad.
4) these hadiths aren't true even being "Sahih" so it would bring us another question about "Why do you believe in the Shahada then"? or in the 5 pillars of Islam, or in the using of the Veil? and other traditions only based on the Hadiths.
5) These verses didn't refer to this subject, but i have read the tafsir and it seems to be that Ibn Kathir believes that this verse is about salvation.
6) This verse doesn't contradict Muhamamd at all since we are not taking your burden, because we are already going to hell so as i said in my older post, Allah says "well they are going to hell anyway so i will put the sins of my people on them" and this would still prove that Allah doesn't just click his fingers and erase the sins of muslims without any consequence.
7) He is refering about the earthly punishment muslims receive, i.e the stoning penalty for adultery, you can't transfer the penalty to another guy or woman so he/she gets stoned instead of you.
8).....

CristoTeAma said...

Sorry i keep quoting from such a web, but it's amazing what some muslims believe: check

"And its possible that the sins being referred to (the ones that Allah will forgive from the Muslims) is because of the cause of the disbelievers, for if they caused it then it will be removed from the burden of Muslims by the mercy of Allah, and is placed on the disbelievers, for they instigated it, and whoever instigates a sin then he would receive a sin on his account for anyone that ever gets affected by it, and God knows best."

Then he explains:
"Let me give an example to clarify that. Lets say a non Muslim distributes drugs throughout the community. One Muslim happens to get his hands on these drugs and uses it. The Muslim gets a sin. However, the non Muslim gets a sin as well because it was his fault the Muslim is doing it. So if Allah on the day of judgment decides to forgive the Muslim for his sin, he would place it on the non Muslim."

SO the difference between the drugadict muslim and the non muslim drug dealer is that the Muslim made the Shahada, but the drug dealer "Christian" goes to hell and pay for his sin of selling drug and for BUYING DRUG which was the sin of the muslim? so i only have to make the Shahada and i am free to sin because all sins i commit are induced? in example: I watch porn because there are so many porn web sites, i go to prostitues because the TV is filled with "christians and jews" promoting sex, i kill because i watch so many Charles Browson movies, i commit adultery because i see many "Christians and Jews doing itor because they lure me to do so", O M G !! i am in shock, but i wonder if Muslims can't " JUST SAY NO", isn't the muslims fault buying drug? I am not saying that all muslims believe this but at least this guy in "answering-christianity" believes in this. I wonder if rapist muslims will be forgiven because they "induced me", so the Christian women goes to hell for being unbeliever and for raping.

CristoTeAma said...

To finish my comments about this web site i ve been reading and it's amazind the distortion you find there, i would tell the Muslims who wrote this text that the Bible teaches you better, Jesus the one you so much say respect says in Matthew 5:29

"If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell" So Jesus does state that you must stay away from sin, and that you can't blame others for your sins, but you must do what you must to avoid sinning. But according to this muslim, when i go to heaven i could say "well i saw my brother's wife with lust in my heart because she lured me" and if she is a non believer she will go to hell with that sin of mine too.

minoria said...

PART 1

Hello Kim,

The way I see it is that Muhammad had a career of 22 years.

So,accepting the hadiths as reliable and since he was only human,then Muhammad contradicted himself sometimes

Or he said,being human,things like most people in hell are women,etc

Muslims shoudld not expect perfection regarding a human
The Bible tells of the sins of David,Solomon,Abraham,Moses,etc

ABOUT SHABIR ALLY

Sam Shamoun said it brilliantly in answering-islam.org:

"Shabir believes that these considerations support his position that chapters 15-17 are an earlier form of Jesus’ teachings which were then placed in their present location at some later stage of editing.

Shabir tried to totally discount Jesus’ Paraclete sayings in John 14, arguing that they were a corrupted or embellished form of Christ’s original words."

minoria said...

PART 2

"we will simply agree with Shabir’s fallacious assumptions and use them to see whether Jesus’ statements regarding the Paraclete in chapters 15-16 prove his case.

Here is what Jesus said about the Paraclete, the Spirit of Truth:

EXMPLE 1:

"But when the Helper comes, whom I WILL SEND TO YOU from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning." John 15:26-27

EXAMPLE 2:

"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." John 16:7-15

minoria said...

PART 3

"Jesus says that he will send the Paraclete from the Father, since the Paraclete proceeds from the Father. This last statement implies that the Paraclete dwells with/in the Father’s presence, that he originates out of heaven, from God himself, and would come from there to be with Christ’s followers.

If Shabir is correct that these so-called earlier forms of Jesus’ statements refer to a male figure, specifically to Muhammad, then he has several problems which he needs to deal with.

1.Jesus will send the Paraclete, yet Muslims believe Allah sent Muhammad. If Shabir is correct that Muhammad is the Paraclete then this means that Jesus is Allah, the God who sent Muhammad!

2.The Paraclete proceeds from the Father who is in heaven. If Shabir is correct about Muhammad being the Paraclete then this means that Muhammad was alive and existing in heaven before Jesus sent him.

3.Islamic theology doesn’t believe that Allah is anyone’s father, and yet Jesus says that the Paraclete will come forth from the Father to glorify him. Hence, if Shabir accepts this as a genuine saying of Jesus then this means the Quran and Islam are wrong since they deny God’s spiritual Fatherhood.

4.Jesus says that everything that the Father has belongs to him, making him a co-heir with God, but Islam says Allah is the heir, the inheritor of all things (cf. Suras 15:23; 19:40). Again, since Shabir accepts this statement as genuine this either means that the Quran is wrong or that Jesus is Allah, Shabir’s and Muhammad’s God!

Shabir will have to contend with and address all these points if he wants to convince any honest and open-minded reader that these Paraclete passages refer to his prophet."

NOTE

Again,as you can see NONE of the PARACLETE passages can be applied to MUHAMMAD and still make the KORAN be accurate.

minoria said...

PART 4

SHABIR REJECTS the gospel of JOHN as being by an EYEWITNESS.

In his debates he says:"We can NOT be SURE Jesus REALLY died."

OK

He HAS TO reject John as being by an EYEWITESS because it says an eyewtiness saw Jesus being PIERCED to make sure he was DEAD.

JOHN 19:31-35:

"Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.

The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.

But when they came to JESUS and found that he was ALREADY DEAD, they did not break his legs.

Instead, one of the soldiers PIERCED Jesus’ side with a SPEAR, bringing a sudden flow of BLOOD AND WATER.

The MAN WHO SAW IT has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe."

minoria said...

PART 5

Shabir Ally says the GREEK word for PIERCED also means TO PROD according to Raymond Brown,a Catholic scholar,very famous.

WHO IS R BROWN?

He was a priest who proposed the JOHANNINE SCHOOL idea,that people later on invented the stories in the gospel of John,in other words it is a forgery.

ABOUT THE GREEK WORD

Brown is correct BUT,as MICHAEL LICONA has pointed out the SAME GREEK word is used by JOSEPHUS regarding KILLING A ROMAN SOLDIER.

And QUINTILIAN,1st century,says the EXECUTIONER can bury the CRUCIFIED dead once they have been PIERCED.

EVEN IF IT WAS NOT A PIERCING

The BLOOD and WATER coming out PROVES from a MEDICAL point that the body was DEAD,the lungs were filled with liquid,etc.

ABOUT BAUKHAM

He wrote "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses" where one conclusion is JOHN was written by an EYEWITNESS,the "beloved disciple",but he does not think it was John himself.I dont agree.All the same for those who want to read a summary of the arguments in the book read:

http://www.amazon.ca/product-reviews/0802831621/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt/179-2877783-3327514?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

SO?
Ok,there is EVIDENCE John is by an eyewitness,and Raymond Brown would be wrong,and then Shabir's assertion:"We can NOT be sure Jesus was DEAD" in debate after debate is incorrect.

RATHER

We can NOT be sure JOHN was NOT written by an EYEWITNESS.There is evidence he was,like IRENEUS who KNEW POLYCARP,a martyr and holy man,and who tells us Polycarp said he was a DISCIPLE of JOHN and that JOHN wrote that gospel.

Shabir's argument is untenable in light of what we know,and it makes Islam FALSE,since the KORAN says Jesus did NOT DIE.

donna60 said...

Kim, you aren't "invading" this website. I'm pretty sure that David loves to have you here.

curly said...

@Search 4 truth,
NO free will in Islam? Imam told me there do free will in Islam. There must be the confusion in Muslim world.
I admit some christians are confusing too

curly said...

@Kim,
I applause that you show us the source and website. Good job...
You encourage me to ask Muslim scholar for clarity. I must warning you that Muslim Scholar can be dishonest. Why? Mormon do have some scholars. Hinduism do have a scholar. Buddhist do have a scholar. Many religions do have their scholar. Unfortunately, some christian scholars can be dishonest, too! I do not trust christian scholars easily. Have you surprise Muslim scholar can be dishonest? Reminding you, Suuni have their scholar, Shia have their scholar, even Admadiyya have their scholar too. Fact, I have a good friend name Ahmed. His family is Sunni. He born and raise in Egypt until 8 years old. He and his family move to Canada for settle. Arabic language is his primary language. Ahmed told me that his father despise Muslim Scholar !!
Hey, fact, There are do contradiction in between Quran and Hadith. Some of my muslim friends include Ahmed reject Hadith and use ONLY Quran, because of the contradiction.
So, Be careful with muslim scholar!

Search 4 Truth said...

@ curly.

I think your being sarcastic. but if you read the verses I posted you can see and logically conclude allah is in control of who is going to accept Islam and who is not. And he does everything he can to create certain people who are inevitably made for the sole purpose of tormenting until they die, and then tormenting them again in hell. Islam is CRAZY!

curly said...

@Search 4 Truth,
I was not sarcastic. I m sorry. Actually, I am not good at sarcasm, but I am so-so at that. I notice common hearing people are quite good at sarcasm. Common Deaf people are very blunt and directly.
Fact, Imam told me there are do free will. You show the proof the sura in Quran are not free will. I have seen it before. I dunno why Imam told me.
I agree you that Islam is confuse. I do not like to call Islam a crazy because it is too strong word. Although, I understand your view. Yeah, Islam is confused !