Qur'an 4:34—Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Here's how one Muslim apologist explains the passage:
WomenforTruth(Lies)... where are youuuuu?
I love how he says women can take their husband in and complain - humm last time I read, or listened to your videos - women had no rights in Muslim courts, we are second class citizens who need more than one of us to come in and verify our story - but he's right -- men and women are not equal (in Islam) -- so why did our Lord give us equality in Christianity and not in Islam ??
Perhaps because Islam is a man- made religion ?
"humm last time I read, or listened to your videos - women had no rights in Muslim courts, we are second class citizens who need more than one of us to come in and verify our story"
What do you expect from a missionary hate spreading website?
They worship creation.
THANK YOU DAVID for spreading Islam I greatly appreciate it.
Perfect system that Allah has given us. And I don't see what hthe problem is with gently beating oru wives, as was demonstrated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) with a feather gently striking.
Advise, then time out, then gently beat so that no bruises or even a red mark appears on her body.
And you call that oppressive?
I wonder sometimes whether you're a woman or something.
Kangaroo, I am asking you one more time; Where is Zaineb Chaudhary?
Is she dead? Have you Muslims killed her?
question .. WHY are so many Muslim women taking thier lives in their own hands at the threat /promise of punishment ..... to publically come on TV in their own countries ... if their place and privileges are so wonderful -- I've listened to some of their testimonies and yes I hear their pain and know they are very brave women - God bles them for standing up and speaking out
I didn't watch the video because I've heard it all before and it is too horrible and distressing to hear men in this day and age try to justify violent misogyny.
You can't 'scourge' someone, or 'beat' them, with a feather or a toothbrush, or however Muslims generally try to justify this.
For an adult male to be able to physically chastise an adult female, whether for the purpose of causing actual physical harm OR as a symbolic, physically harmless act for the purpose of humiliating her and enforcing obedience, simply because he is male and she is female, is at odds with all things good and decent and godly. It is at odds with the principle of female autonomy, which is a basic human right, and it is utterly counter-productive to creating strong, trusting relationships between men and women. It is also at odds with the advancement and protection of women in any sphere of life, public or private.
I am glad you classify this as "hitting" with a feather...
You say it is not beating but only “tap lightly”, but The word in the Quran in 4:34 used for "beat" is "idreb". It is a conjugate of the word "daraba" which primarily means "to beat, strike, to hit" - Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, page 538.
The Arabic word "idreb" is used in two primarily ways.
1) to strike up a poem, and
2) to physically "beat", or "strike" someone.
I find that "idrib" is used 12 times in the Quran. Eight times it is used in the physical action of striking, and three times it is used in the context of speaking or applying a proverb.
Clearly then, the most frequent use of the word is in physically striking.
Here is a Quranic verse in which "idreb" is used:
8:12 - "Strike" off their heads, "strike" off the very tips of their fingers!"
Here God is telling the angels to strike the infidels. One has to ask, is God telling His angels to "gently tap" these people?
In addition, here is a Hadith from Bukhari vol. 7, # 715, that supports the case:
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!
The Quran commands men to beat their wives if their wives persist in disobedience to her husband's requests or orders. This is a brutal way to subject women to men's commands Islam makes women 2nd class people. Like a kept prized animal, women are people who are to treated kindly, but severely disciplined when they get out of line. There is no way to justify this degrading, institutionalized, physical and psychological abuse of women allowed and commanded by Islam.
Also brother, what is the right of the woman if the man is wrong... clearly she cannot go to the imam since:
`Umar reported the Prophet as saying, "A man will not be asked about why he beat his wife." Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah transmitted it. (Mishkat Al-Masabih: volume 2, p. 693)
I had asked the same question to the HERO of the Muslims: Zakir Naik at his conference. You can see the ridiculous lengths he has gone to answer me... I know even Muslims who find his performance embarrassing.
First part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZTgvDquR78&feature=related
Second Part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxdvEIgBLIs&feature=related
Obviously he edited out my last counter argument for obvious reasons...
GOD BLESS. :)
mr. kangaroo saide: «And I don't see what hthe problem is with gently beating oru wives»...
I arrest mie case. When someone beliebes he's following a "perfect system" as the one invented my muhammad (adored by muslims in his only created dimention), his intelect is intoxicated so much thate he cannot see the perversion off whate he believes...
with a feather gently striking.
that tickling not beating
@donna- I do not know.
As a wife, it is her duty to be obedient to the husband unless he tells her to do something wrong.
If one day she decides to stop cleaning or cooking because of her selfishness, then that is being unjust to the husband who is working day and night to provide food on the table and protection for the family. It's common sense.
It's only getting hit by a feather. Why are you crying about that? Lol? It actually shows love when you contain yourself instead of smacking her hard 24/7.
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received the verses and their meanings from Allah (swt). He was taught by the Angel Gabriel about everything in the Quran and we follow that interpretation. The Prophet showed us how to beat our wives with a feather, therefore we "STRIKE" them gently. Again, it tells us in the Quran to beat them, however the Prophet showed us how to do it..I don't understand why people have to reinterpret when we have a clear example on how to do something.
If the man is consistently wrong then she can divorce him anytime she likes. A believing man wouldn't be constantly aruging with his wife because that isn't the characteristic of a believer.
I watched the video and I believe he answered you when he said that it doesn't specify who hit her and that at the time, the belieers were the most persecuted. It's just an woman complaining of getting hit and the Prophet didn't agree on abuse.
Zakir Naik was clearly struggling with his answers... or lack of it. He was obviously trying to save face by raising his voice and displaying an air of confidence. And it was kinda funny when he said you've got to make a background check of the woman as if that would justify the violence against her.
Of course, his "brothers" had to take him out of this difficulty by cutting you off.
BTW, that was some brave act. Most of Naik's audience were just there to indulgence their Islamic eras being "tickled" by the very words they would want to hear.
Keep misquoting verses out of context. That's how you will never be guided.
Islam is the only religion the Creator will accept because it is beneficial for us, it is the Truth and it is just.
The Quran gives us many evidences to support it and encourages us to criticize it if you are truly seeking guidance.
The Creator, with all his justice and mercy gave us the final revelation with all the systems we need to build a peaceful, efficient and amazing society. Those who fail to realize this fail because of their biases, prejudice, misquoting/misinterpreting and lying.
Islamophobes are the last people you should be going to for information about Islam.
Things like the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) raped a 9 yr old, or was a murderer, or made up the Quran, or encountered a fake angel or Satan and other garbage can easily be refuted. Don't fall into the trap of deceivers, who have deceived themselves into falsehood and deceive others into it as well.
Be open minded. Think for yourself instead of having The Looney Crew think for you. That's all I'm going to say.
NO man hits me NO man --
no man abuses me with anything -- nothing NO man abuses ME either physically, spiritually or physcologically .... - "disobedient" ?? by who's standards?? MAN's standards my friend MAN not God --- not the one who brought a Savior to us to give us eternal life,not the one true God I know and love - Jesus never ever said to beat wives .....
if I do wrong in this life -- I will have to answer for it in the hereafter -- God's judgement will be on me - and I accept that - but His judgement will be on my spouse too for his sins and failings
"In my Father's House are many mansions... "
"What do you expect from a missionary hate spreading website?
THANK YOU DAVID for spreading Islam I greatly appreciate it."
So its a hate spreading website that spreads ISLAM. Well good to know that Islam is hatred, thanks for admitting that.
Kangaroo then said...
"Advise, then time out, then gently beat so that no bruises or even a red mark appears on her body.
And you call that oppressive?"
Only a Muslim could ask that question. Ladies and Gentlemen (thats men who don't beat their wives) I give you the Muslim Kangaroo.
Kangaroo says: "And you call that oppressive?
I wonder sometimes whether you're a woman or something."
Interesting to know that in Kangaroo's attempt to defend the treatment of women in Islam, he uses the term "woman" as an insult to a man. How revealing "for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:35).
The imam said that according to the hadith, when the husband beats his wife, he must be very gentle. I wish he had actually said where in the hadith the tradition is located. Unfortunately, I don't know Islam well enough to know where it is. As far as I know, bruises are allowed to be inflicted on the wife. There was an incident when a Muslim woman went to Aisha and Muhammad to show them a bruise, which was "greener than her clothes," from a beating she had received from her husband. Muhammad didn't seem to disapprove of the husband bruising his wife. (This can be found in Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715.) Also, Muhammad himself once hit Aisha, causing her pain (Sahih Muslim 2127.)
However, I recall there being a tradition in the hadith that says to "treat women nicely" (Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 548). "Nicely" is a word subject to slightly different guidelines from person to person, but I doubt that beating the crap out of one's wife could fit into anyone's definition of "treating women nicely."
The Koran's organization is chaotic.
It has no context, except for the order of the surahs, which has never been fixed.
Where there is no order, there is no context.
The Koran is chaos. The perfect expression of a demon.
kangroo is gay. watch out kangroo i know who you are! your fellow God-haters could make kebab out of you!! that's what they do to gays in your 'perfect system'.
if anyone needed a beating it was muhammed(tinpbuh)* the false prophet.
*tinpbuh - there is no 'peace be upon him'. the Bible clearly teaches that the wicked will have no rest. even in hell.
Someone here will need to go an see a marriage guidance counsellor before they get hitched.
"Advise, then time out, then gently beat so that no bruises or even a red mark appears on her body."
There's got to be a comedy sketch taking the rip out of this, surely? Any budding sketch writers out there? it'll be hysterical.
How can a religion be true and just if its god isn't?
"Kangaroo says: "And you call that oppressive?
I wonder sometimes whether you're a woman or something."
Interesting to know that in Kangaroo's attempt to defend the treatment of women in Islam, he uses the term "woman" as an insult to a man. How revealing "for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks" (Luke 6:35)."
Yes, he uses 'woman' as a derogatory term, and makes the assumption that any man who cares about women's equality is manifesting shameful effeminacy. I wonder where he picked up such a way of thinking.
I think a lot of Muslim men would consider it a terrible thing to actually hit their wives, yet they still have to try to justify this verse, and they do so by making reference to hitting 'gently' or with a feather or a toothbrush. If they didn't have to defend the Qur'an, even to the point of making absurd arguments, it wouldn't ever occur to them that hitting a woman lightly with a small object is wise. Other Muslim men, of course, are only too happy to take this verse utterly at face value. It says 'beat', or 'scourge', so they beat and scourge. Therefore the verse is either ridiculous or dangerous, but never wise or good or beneficial or fair.
Nah I wasn't insulting him. But his attitude towrds this sounds like one from a Western woman. That's why I'm wondering.
Greek Asian Panda it never said that it was her husband who beat her. And it never said that the PROPHET (pbuh) approved of it or disapproved of it. It simply tells us a woman got beat on a certain part of her body, and she complained to Aisha (ra). Indeed Islam doesn't allow the man to hit the woman hard enough to cause bruising or even a red mark.
goechosethemercy- Well I have to say either you've never read the Quran or you're totally blind.
Again. It's not fair when you misrepresent verses. Clearly the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon this man) showed us how to beat our wives by strikiing them with a feather so as to not harm her. Why don't you take a feather and strike yourself with it. I doubt you'll even feel it when you're wearing clothes.
To me, if I approached my wife with a feather and started hitting her with it, she'd laugh instead of feel intimidated. This is the Mercy of Allah for the relationship between husband and wife.
"It's not fair when you misrepresent verses. Clearly the Prophet Muhammad showed us how to beat our wives by strikiing them with a feather so as to not harm her. Why don't you take a feather and strike yourself with it."
Crikey you couldn't make this up - brilliant. Come on someone write a comedy sketch. Scene 1: Disobedient Muslim wife: "make your own dinner you lazy git, and if you think your in for some "romance" tonight - get stuffed - you can sleep on the sofa"
Muslim husband: "Why, by the words of the prophet, peace be upon him, it will strike you down with this feather, and then you will be sorry"
Scene 2 10 minutes later - punishment hasn't worked, wife is laughing hysterically. Muslim husband: "Bugger this for a came of soldiers" - proceeds to slap wife - "gently".
Scene 3 Wife's gone to bed, still disobedient husband prays to Allah: Oh Allah I've tried everything: the feather, the gentle hand slap, what shall I do? Allah: "Why do you think I made divorce so easy for a man you bozo. Divorce her."
Look as you can see i'm no comedian but there must be someone out there who can do these word of Mohammed justice?
"To me, if I approached my wife with a feather and started hitting her with it, she'd laugh instead of feel intimidated. This is the Mercy of Allah for the relationship between husband and wife."
And I am wondering what's the point of such an action as a mean of disciplining a 'disobedient' or 'arrogant' wife?
Second, time out for the wife..
Then, make her laugh at the husband's embarrassing attempt of disciplining her with a feather.
Talk about being irrational...
'Allah' must be laughing his butt off at the silly things Muslims come up with to justify a clearly violent-against-women verse.
Kangaroo, Let's just suppose that the word, in which Pickthall translated as "scourge" really means tickle with a feather.
"Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
The next step after your tickling doesn't work, is divorce. And right there, Buddy, you are out of line with what God said in both the Law of Moses and the law of Christ.
If you divorce your wife, according to scripture, you are going to h-e-double toothpicks.
Why on earth would you listen to a man who encourages you to get yourself in a position where you end up there? It is truely a terrible place!
Malachi 2:16 "“For I hate divorce!” says the Lord, the God of Israel. “To divorce your wife is to overwhelm her with cruelty, ” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. “So guard your heart; do not be unfaithful to your wife.”
Matthew 17:7-9 " 7 “Then why did Moses say in the law that a man could give his wife a written notice of divorce and send her away?” they asked. 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended. 9 And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful."
1 Corinthians 7:10-12 "But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.
Revelation 20:13-15 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Kangaroo, It must be galling to Muslim men who come to America for economic reasons, because Muslims countries are too inept to provide job opportunities for their people, and end up having to work for a female American boss, who has more savvy and ability than him. I feel for ya, buddy!
On the other hand, God has decided that you are accountable for not divorcing your wife, or harming her in any way. It has nothing to do with her. If you hurt her or divorce her, no matter what she did or didn't do, you are the one who is going to hell.
I am just trying to give you friendly warning about this clear danger. It's not even just about Muslims men. Real Christian men don't divorce their wives, because they know the bible; but a lot of American men do.
You are going to be sharing eternity in the same place these men are.
Ephesians 5:28-29 "So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
Sandon why do you think Kangaroo is homosexual? Even if he is, if he obeys the gospel, he can convert.
John, im disappointed with your level of respect. Is that what you consider beautiful preaching methods?
And Christians can't divorce their wives. I find that pretty oppressive. But whatever.
I don't disbelieve in the Bible.
I don't believe it either.
I believe what Allah has given the world. Today the remaining authentic 100% reliable guidance is the Quran.
I'm not visiting this website anymore. Filled with very ignorant people.
The hadith is about an argument between a husband and a wife. Why in the world would it mention the bruise if it had nothing to do with the argument? The bruise and the argument are obviously related; the woman goes to Muhammad and Aisha to show them the bruise, then when the husband finds out that the wife went to Muhammad, he comes and they start talking about their conflict. How can you think that it was someone else who beat her?
Where is the tradition that says that bruises aren't allowed? I'm not saying that you can't produce it, I'm just asking.
Hey - it could have come right out of a Jewish comedy sketch (obviously it would be funny/funnier).
Jesus saves - Keegan scored on the rebound, you got to be able to laugh at your own and other peoples religions/beliefs. I'm sure God can take it.
I hope you find the truth, you must know in you heart that it isn't in Islam.
Kangaroo, you might not believe in the bible, but the bible is going to judge you on the last day, my friend.
You haven't supplied one shred of evidence that the bible was corrupted, and everyone knew that Mohammed was lying. For example, Mohammed confused Mary the mother of Jesus with Mariam, the sister of Moses and Aaron, and the daughter of Imran, so the Christians knew back then, that he was telling a pack of lies. The Jews knew he was a liar. Other Muslims knew he was a liar, they just couldn't escape him.
And if you think not divorcing your wife is too oppressive, than you would be better off not getting married, which is what Jesus said.
9 And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful.”
10 Jesus’ disciples then said to him, “If this is the case, it is better not to marry!”
11 “Not everyone can accept this statement,” Jesus said. “Only those whom God helps. 12 Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made eunuchs by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”
It is better for you to not get married than to marry and not be able to keep this commandment, and then end up-- you know where.
This is my first comment here, so I just wanted to give a quick shout out and say I genuinely enjoy reading your articles. Your web page provided us useful information. You have done an outstanding job.
Post a Comment