Wednesday, January 19, 2011

Sam Shamoun Responds to Abdullah Kunde . . . Again

As I noted in a previous post, Abdullah Kunde is making the classic Muslim Debater's Blunder. He's tossing criticisms at Christianity without considering whether those criticisms would also apply to Islam. Sam Shamoun draws attention to yet another inconsistency on Abdullah's part. What follows is from Sam.


Kunde claimed that Christ’s sacrifice is illogical:

“Why do I say these things? Well, as I said, first of all the method of salvation is illogical, absolutely illogical. How’s it logical that somebody should be punished for something that, a) they didn’t do, because we assume that God wasn’t part of the whole original sin thing with Adam; that b) I should be punished for something I didn’t do because I didn’t eat in the garden. And that c) it’s the punishment of an individual who didn’t even commit the sin at all, who created the system in the first place and that sets it all back in motion. If you are kind of lost in what I am saying there it’s because it doesn’t make sense.”

By using such argumentation Kunde ends up once again condemning his own god and prophet. Unlike Kunde, Muhammad had no problem with people being punished for the sins of others since he taught that Adam’s transgression led to all of mankind being expelled from the garden:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father WHO DISAPPOINTED US AND TURNED US OUT OF PARADISE.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action WHICH ALLAH HAD WRITTEN IN MY FATE forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses," the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611)

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira and Hudhaifa that the Messenger of Allah said: Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, would gather people. The believers would stand till the Paradise would be brought near them. They would come to Adam and say: O our father, open for us the Paradise. He would say: What turned you out from the Paradise WAS THE SIN OF YOUR FATHER ADAM. I am not in a position to do that; ... (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0380)

Kunde’s prophet also blamed Eve for wives rebelling against their husbands, and even blamed the Jews for food becoming stale and meat decaying!

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Were it not for Bani Israel, meat would not decay; and were it not FOR EVE, no woman would ever betray her husband." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 611)

Hammam b. Munabbih said: These are some of the ahadith which Abu Huraira narrated to us from Allah's Messenger, and one of these (this one): Allah's Messenger said: Had it not been for Bani Isra'il, food would not have become stale, and meal would not have gone bad; and had it not been FOR Eve, a woman would never have acted unfaithfully toward her husband. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3472)

But that’s not at all. Muhammad further claimed that the reason why human beings do not walk around naked, but instead cover themselves, is because of the shame which the sin of Adam and Eve brought upon mankind:

And (We said): O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden; so eat from where you O Adam, inherit, thou and thy wife, the Garden, and eat of where you will, but come not nigh this tree, lest you be of the evildoers.' Then Satan whispered to them, to reveal to them that which was hidden from them of their shameful parts. He said, 'Your Lord has only prohibited you from this tree lest you become angels, or lest you become immortals.' And he swore to them, 'Truly, I am for you a sincere adviser.' So he led them on by delusion; and when they tasted the tree, their shameful parts revealed to them, so they took to stitching upon themselves leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called to them, 'Did not I prohibit you from this tree, and say to you, "Verily Satan is for you a manifest foe"?' They said, 'Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if Thou dost not forgive us, and have mercy upon us, we shall surely be among the lost.' Said He, 'Get you down, each of you an enemy to each. In the earth a sojourn shall be yours, and enjoyment for a time.' Said He, 'Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from there you shall be brought forth.' Children of Adam! We have sent down on you a garment to cover your shameful parts, and feathers; and the garment of godfearing -- that is better; that is one of God's signs; haply they will remember. Children of Adam! Let not Satan tempt you as he brought your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their garments to show them their shameful parts. Surely he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you see them not. We have made the Satans the friends of those who do not believe. S. 7:19-27 Arberry

Muhammad also taught that mankind forgets and makes mistakes because Adam forgot and made a mistake:

Commenting on this Ayah (7:172), At-Tirmidhi recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said…

((… So Adam denied that and HIS OFFSPRING FOLLOWED SUIT (denying Allah's covenant), Adam forgot and HIS OFFSPRING FORGOT, Adam made a mistake and HIS OFFSPRING MADE MISTAKES.))

At-Tirmidhi said, "This Hadith is Hasan Sahih, and it was reported from various chains of narration through Abu Hurayrah from the Prophet. Al-Hakim also recorded it in his Mustadrak, and said; Sahih according to the criteria of Muslim, and they did not record it."

These and similar Hadiths testify that Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored, brought forth Adam's offspring from his loins and separated between the inhabitants of Paradise and those of the Fire… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 7:172)

Muhammad even believed that Allah would punish Jews and Christians in hell for the sins committed by Muslims:


Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665)

Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)

Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)

Superiority of the believers in the Oneness of Allah and the punishment of the Jews and Christians

8) Narrated Abu Musa: Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.

(This Hadith is sound and mentioned in Mustadrak of Hakim). (110 Hadith Qudsi (Sacred Hadith), translated by Syed Masood-ul-Hasan, revision and commentaries by Ibrahim m. Kunna [Darussalam Publishers and Distributors], pp. 19-20)

These hadiths shockingly testify that Allah is going to ransom Muslims from judgment by condemning Jews and Christians to hell in their place! According to Muhammad, Allah is going to actually place all the sins of the Muslims upon the Jews and Christians so as to punish them for the evil and wicked acts committed by Muhammad’s followers!

Thus, instead of the sinless Son of God ransoming men from eternal wrath by his death on the cross, Muhammad believed that Allah will actually accept the sacrifice of fallible, imperfect beings as an adequate substitute for the crimes committed by Muslims!

This further shows that Muhammad had no problem with Allah actually punishing people for their own personal sins as well as for the transgression of others. After all, the Jews and Christians are not only going to be sent to hell for the evil deeds of Muslims but also for their own sins, especially for the crime of rejecting Muhammad as a prophet and messenger.

In light of such teachings, Kunde is going to have to reject Muhammad and abandon Islam altogether if he is to remain honest and consistent.


Sophie said...

Great response. I sometimes wonder why Muslim apologists continue to use this objection about the supposed unfairness of Christian punishment and atonement when it can be used against their own religion, too.

I think they must be counting on the audience's ignorance of these passages.

Chinchilla PetVerse said...

In the debate of Dr.James White and Shabir Ally on "Was Christ a willing sacrifice for the sins of the world", Shabir give this same inconsistent argument.
Actually speaking I was going to write today to Dr.White to let his know this point but Sam has done a much better job on that. Suggest you to please pass on this info to Dr.White.
Many times I am really amazed at how such seemingly good people (Shabir, Abdullah, etc) can put forth such fraudulent arguments... whom are they trying to cheat and to what end ... its really sad...

trencherbone said...

Islam's rejection of the Trinity leads to multiple logical contradictions.