Tuesday, January 18, 2011

Sam Shamoun Responds to Abdullah Kunde

Australian debater Abdullah Kunde is apparently making the same mistake virtually every Muslim debater makes: he's so focused on raising criticisms against Christianity, he fails to see how those same criticisms would, if accurate, refute Islam. Sam Shamoun draws attention to one such error on Abdullah's part (which Abdullah made in his recent debate with Samuel Green). What follows is Sam's reply.


Kunde's argument that God is not omnipotent because he is obligated to save all those who accept Jesus' sacrifice is not only an absurd claim, but it actually backfires against him.

The Quran says Allah has bound himself to give paradise as a reward to all those martyrs who murder people in the cause of their god:

Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is BINDING ON HIM in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success. S. 9:111 Hilali-Khan

Also notice what Muhammad is reported to have said:

It is narrated on the authority of Mu'adh b. Jabal: I was riding behind the Prophet and there was nothing between him and me but the rear part of the saddle, when he said: Mu'adh b. Jabal: To which I replied: At your beck and call, and at your pleasure, Messenger of Allah! He moved along for a few minutes, when again he said: Mu'adh b. Jabal: To which I replied: At your beck and call, and at your pleasure, Messenger of Allah! He then again moved along for a few minutes and said: Mu'adh b. Jabal: To which I replied. At your beck and call, and at your pleasure. Messenger of Allah He, (the Holy Prophet) said: Do you know what right has Allah upon His servants? I said: Allah and His Messenger know best. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Verily the right of Allah over His servants is that they should worship Him, not associating anything with Him. He (the Holy Prophet) with Mu'adh behind him, moved along for a few minutes and said: Mu'adh b. Jabal: To which I replied: At your beck and call, and at your pleasure, Messenger of Allah! He (the Holy Prophet) said: Do you know what rights have servants upon Allah in case they do it (i.e. they worship Allah without associating anything with Him)? I (Mu'adh b. Jabal) replied: Allah and His Messenger know best. (Upon this) he (the Holy Prophet) remarked: That He would not torment them (with the fire of Hell). (Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 46)

It is narrated on the authority of Mu'adh b. Jabal that the Messenger of Allah said: Mu'adh, do you know the right of Allah over His bondsmen? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He said: That Allah alone should be worshipped and nothing should be associated with Him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What right have they (bondsmen) upon Him in case they do it? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That He would not punish them. (Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 48)

Here Muhammad says that Muslims have rights over Allah just as he has rights over them. The right that Muslims have over Allah is that he must save them from punishment if they believe that there is no god besides him.

This is the height of blasphemy since no creature can ever claim any rights over God so that God must or is forced to do something for that creature.

As the Apostle Paul put it, no one will ever be able to boast before God or make him a debtor on account of what they have done:

"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments,and his paths beyond tracing out! 'Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?' 'Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?' For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen." Romans 11:33-36

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Ephesians 2:8-10

Paul was merely echoing what the OT writers had known and affirmed:

"If you are righteous, what do you give to him? Or what does he receive from your hand?" Job 35:7

"Who then is he who can stand before me? Who has first given to me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine." Job 41:10b-11

This next hadith is even worse:

It is narrated on the authority of Mu'adh b. Jabal that he observed: I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah on an ass known as 'Ufair. He (Mu'adh) observed: He (the Holy Prophet) said: Mu'adh, do you know what right has Allah over His bondsmen and what right have His bondsmen over Him? Mu'adh added: I replied: Allah and his Messenger know best. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet remarked: The right of Allah over His bondsmen is that they should worship Allah and should not associate anything with Him, and the right of His bondsmen over Allah, Glorious and Sublime, is that He does not punish him who associates not anything with Him. He (Mu'adh) added: I said to the Messenger of Allah: Should I then give the tidings to the people? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Do not tell them this GOOD NEWS, for they would trust in it alone. (Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 47)

Not only do Muslims have rights over Allah, thereby making Allah impotent per Kunde's logic, this hadith also exposes Muhammad as a transgressor who willfully broke Allah's orders. For instance, the Quran tells Muhammad that he has to convey the message he receives from his impotent deity:

O Messenger (Muhammad)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allah will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allah guides not the people who disbelieve. S. 5:67 Hilali-Khan

Allah warns Muhammad to convey his message to mankind, otherwise he will fail in his mission if he doesn't do so.

Yet according to the above hadith Muhammad hid some of the so-called revelation from his followers and forbids Muadh from making known to the rest of the Muslims an important piece of information which Allah had supposedly given to him and which he himself called good news!

What makes this all the more intriguing is that Muadh obviously didn't listen to Muhammad and chose to dishonor his prophet by publishing this information to the rest of the Muslims. After all, we wouldn't have known this piece of information had Muadh not opened his mouth and told it to others.

This now places Kunde in a bit of a dilemma. If Allah has bound himself by a promise to give his jihadists paradise for killing and being killed in his cause, and if he has also committed himself to saving Muslims from punishment because of their confessing and believing that he is the only deity worthy of worship then this makes him impotent since he cannot do otherwise. However, if Allah isn't under any necessary obligation to save anyone and doesn't have to commit to keeping his promise or fulfilling his obligation to his servants then this means that Allah is a lying, deceitful, capricious deity who cannot be taken at his word. Such a god cannot be trusted and is unworthy of being worshiped.

So much for Kunde's logic.


Nakdimon said...

Allah: NOT the most Merciful, NOT the most Just

Islam teaches that Allah is just and merciful. Not only is Allah just and merciful, but he is the Most Just and the Most Merciful. But if you think it through Allah is anything but most just and most merciful. What follows are a few scenarios of the Islamic version of the Day of Judgment:

On the Day of Judgment, Allah will judge mankind by their deeds. Allah will then send everyone to hell, since all have sinned. Allah will thus justly send people to hell. That makes him most Just. However, along with that comes the promise of Allah to take people out of hell, that is, if they had been god-fearing enough. But here is the problem of with all this.

If Allah takes people out of hell before they have suffered for all their sins, then Allah simply sweeps their sins under the rug. This may make Allah look as a most merciful deity, but it does mean that Allah is unjust, since the full penalty for sin hasn’t been paid. However…

If Allah wants to truly be just, he has to put people in hell forever, since the penalty for sin is hell and there is no timeframe or amount of suffering by the sinner that would satisfy the penalty for sin. His righteousness will avail him nothing.

But, the Muslim might object, what if Allah himself has set a standard of suffering for sinners to be taken out of hell and eventually get into Paradise? This also poses a problem since that would mean Allah would not be merciful. Allah would be obliged to reward the sinner with Paradise, since he has done all the required things to earn Paradise. The sinner did what he needed to do to be granted access into Paradise, therefore there is no need for mercy. Allah must grant them access to Paradise by their own achievements. Although Allah would be just, he would not be merciful.

Thus Allah cannot be BOTH most just and most merciful. Allah has to choose from either of the two. However if he chooses the one he has to forfeit the other, making him either unjust or unmerciful, no matter how you slice it.

Haecceitas said...

I only viewed the Q&A part of this debate (so I got only allusions to this argument rather than the actual presentation) but this argument by Kunde still seemed very odd. Well, I suppose you have to be prepared to hear odd arguments when dealing with Islam. Even the better Muslim apologists will occasionally slip such in. For example, I could barely believe that I heard it correctly when Bassam Zawadi argued that Islam passed "a crucial falsification test" when Muhammad said to some Jews that they should wish for death and they didn't.

Also, even though this is off-topic, can you give any kind of an update on Negeen's appeal on her conviction? I saw from a Facebook group that the appeal was due 7th of this month but I haven't seen any update after that.

Ken said...

Thanks for this Sam.

Do you (or anyone else) know the reference for the Al Ghazzali quote that Abdullah gave during the question and answers time?

This also shows the capriciousness and arbitrariness of the character of Allah.

The God of the Bible cannot lie - Titus 1:2

The true God is faithful to His promises. I Thess. 5:24; I Cor. 1:9; Lamentations 3:22-23; 2 Cor. 1:18-23

But Allah is the very best deceiver/schemer/trickster. Qur'an 3:54; 8:30; 10:21/22

donna60 said...

Even when we give to church, we aren't "giving to God." That would be crazy to even think that. We give to the poor, and various educational materials for ourselves.

But it seems that the bible does say that God is obligating Himself to repay us for helping the poor.
Or am I misreading this verse?

Proverbs 19:17
(NAS) One who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deeds."

(NLT) If you help the poor, you are lending to the Lord and He will repay you.

In any case, it has always been the case that God has tended to me generously when I am generous. So I have always taken that verse to mean that God would pay me back for what I did kindly for someone else. The older I have gotten, the more generous I have become, and I have never been hurt by it.

Ken said...

Do you know the reference to the Al Ghazzali statement about judgment day, that Abdullah gave at the end in the question and answer time?

That would be helpful to have the reference.

It shows the capricious nature of Allah of Islam.

YFC777 said...

Sam has an excellent presentation on youtube titled "The Prophets Have Spoken". Apart from the points Samuel pointed out this is yet another good presentation on why Jesus is the Messiah who must be worshiped.

hugh watt said...

Allah, the "most merciful" and "oft-forgiving" and "just," hates sin and will punish all wrong-doers, some with the hell-fire, forever.

Muslim. Bk. 37, No. 6622:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.

So, Allah would make an innocent person sin just to prove a point? From this hadith it looks like Allah hates the right-doer! Also, Allah would be under no obligation whatsoever to pardon them though he preferred they sinned.

How is Allah being merciful and just here?

hugh watt said...

O Messenger (Muhammad)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allah will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allah guides not the people who disbelieve. S. 5:67 Hilali-Khan

Allah does not guide those who Allah did not make to believe. Now Allah orders them to be killed. Strange psychology. Teach a child you didn't want them to learn what was right then punish them for doing wrong. No wonder Muslims are confused as to where they stand with Allah. I have observed the older Muslims become the less they smile. Would you too, I hear them say: had you no idea where you stand with a god who may punish you to the hell-fire forever - on a whim - certainly you would not feel like smiling much the closer your eternity draws near.

Fernando said...

"Don't you dare to Forget to call me Sir" Kunde uses aberrant clothes to distract people from tha vacuity of his statements... cam'on: is this teh best muslims apologists can do? Where is Osama Abdullah? Where? Where? Where? Cme back and stay: you're forgiven...

Samuel Green said...

Thanks Sam, I thought of using 9:111 too later - after the debate.

Allah seems to be very Aristotelian in Abdullah's definition.

Sam said...

Samuel, it is my pleasure brother. I have more to unleash against Kunde. However, have you thought about writing articles and blog posts addressing his distortions? For instance, why not write an article concerning whether the guilt-offering (asham) was made only for unintentional sins and how this affects our interpretation of Isaiah 53.