Saturday, January 29, 2011

Pat Condell: The Criminal Truth


Henning said...

Pat Condell mentions Lars Hedegaard who is on trial.
Lars Hedegaard, chairman of the Danish Free Press Society, has been attributed with being racist and hating Muslims. He appointed the vice chairman seat to a male Somali homosexual nurse, so he is not really racist.

The three remarks that he is on trial for are the following.

- When a Muslim man rapes a woman, it is his right to do so. When Swedish girls are raped, gang raped, etc. etc., there is nothing wrong with it, seen from a Muslim perspective, this is your right.
- They rape their own children. You hear it all the time. Girls in Muslim families are being raped by their uncles, their cousins or their dads.
- Women have no value. They are not human beings. Their function is like the uterus - they carry the warriors’ descendants and create new warriors, but otherwise… well they can be used for sexual purposes, otherwise they have no value.

He is charged with laws of racism. These remarks were said to a private company Christmas party, when he was not prepared for questioning, under influence of alcohol, and he did not know it would go public.
After the remarks, several MP’s left the Free Press Society, and thus the organization is now considered racist by many.
Lars Hedegaard already stated in his introductory defense speech, after consulting his lawyer, that this trial is not on whether his statements are true or not, but merely on whether people like them or not. So even considering these statements are true, they will be illegal.

Max punishment is a fine of approximately $1000.

One of the (right wing) MP’s who did not leave the Free Press Society, and backed Hedegaard with an opinion letter, “no, they don’t just rape their daughters, they just kill them” referring to the honor killings of Muslim girls. Perhaps mentioning the “Balcony suicides” in Malmö, Sweden, where some girls are believed to be forced to jump, or pushed out by their families.

This MP was in court some months ago, admitting, yes yes, and did a long defense speech, being the politician he is, I am guilty of telling the truth, but this law against racism is outdated. He was fined with $1000.

The issue for debate is, “Do you really believe ALL Muslims do this”, when mentioning “Muslim men…”, but it is just semantics. Newspapers continuously write “Danish people…” [and then something bad, but yet generalising] - but they are more careful when it comes to Muslims in crime.

Fisher said...

Uhh.... correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Pat Condell a rabid atheist? :/

John K said...

That's a very true discourse. Pat almost always gets the heart of the matter right. I enjoy listening to his critiques of Islam.

It's ironic that I am at a Christian site listening to an atheist talk about Islam. Of course, that's the way it should be in a broad human alliance that consists of all religions as well as atheists and agnostics.

I was, however, rather put off by his Muslim Christmas because he hit "baby Jesus" with some bitter sarcasm and was too cynical for my taste with his remarks on the eventual death of the solar system.

Charis kai Eirene said...

@Fisher, yes Condell is an atheist and not a particular fan of Christianity. But that seems to be kind of the point of posting him on here, well besides the fact that he is rather witty and incisive. We can have profound disagreements about some things with someone, but we can still agree about the immorality of Islam.

Perhaps someone will one day help Condell to see that his moral outrage is inconsistent within a completely naturalistic worldview. In the meantime, it doesn't really matter if he's a Zen Buddhist from Jupiter, but if he's right in the case of Islam then he's right.

Henning said...

Pat Condell is like all other Europeans, Christian by heritage.
So that he is not a believer, means less when Europe is in the process of being islamized. Of course it interests people in Europe.

"It's ironic that I am at a Christian site listening to an atheist talk about Islam.”
How arrogant. But that is not how it works here in Europe. Islam is everywhere. Every little kid here goes to class with up to several Muslim boys and girls, hating their new countries, Western habits and Christian foundation, because they know the master plan, to take over. And no, it was not always like this.

I read this blog, not because it is a Christian (religious) blog, but because of its info on Islam including the things happening in Dearborn, MI.

War of Civlizations is going on, and it is not Christians against the rest, but Muslims against the rest.
Do not feel alone.

John K said...

"It's ironic that I am at a Christian site listening to an atheist talk about Islam.”

"How arrogant."

Actually, I find it rather arrogant that you find a sense of irony to be arrogance.

Henning said...

Just got the news few seconds ago from Copenhagen, that Lars Hedegaard is acquitted for racist remarks.

donna60 said...

Mr. Patrick Condell is an antitheist. He hates Christianity every bit as much as he hates Islam, and he says as much.

I just don't follow that adage of "an enemy of my enemy."

John K said...

I agree Donna. I just think the struggle against Islam should be a civil alliance. WWII wouldn't have gotten very far if the French, British, and Americans were at each other constantly.

Unfortunately, it seems Pat wants to be our enemy too.

John Lollard said...

I have a really weird respect for Pat Condell. I actually listened through most of his youtube videos that I could find. Strangely, I have a huge respect for a lot of his criticisms on Christianity, like his video on clergy, where he asks:

"How many people do you know who live in a palace? Out of those few, how many are clergy?"

Or words to that effect. Sometimes, when you get past the very long strings of invective and prosaic deprecation from atheists, you can find a very true, very cogent remark, as striking as anything decried by the prophets or by Christ himself against religious hypocrites. I love being able to see - probably to his great consternation - just how biblical much of his criticism of Christianity actually is.

Or maybe I have misunderstood the core of his rants?

John K said...

John, God gave all people intelligence, and I don't doubt that he has many valid conclusions about hypocrisy wherever it is found, including among Christians.

And I'm sure that everything he believes is reasonable in his own thinking. But thought, reason, and logic are dependent upon the underlying assumptions.

Error can be understood and forgiven, but there is also something bitter and spiteful in the words I heard in his words about Christians. Bad attitude, mean-spiritedness, and bitterness are not as easy to accept.

John Lollard said...

He doesn't sound any more bitter or mean-spirited than Christ sounds in Matthew 23, than Isaiah sounds in Isaiah 1, or than Jeremiah sounds in pretty much the entire book.

None of whom were very well accepted, either, as it turns out.

If Pat is falsely slandering us, then rejoice! Rejoice and be glad, for so they did to the prophets before us, and great is our reward in heaven. If he is fundamentally accurate in his attacks on Christian hypocrisy, irrationality and self-service, then woe unto us.

A lot of the things that he says are very true. Biblically true. Yeah, a lot of it is mean and cynical and not very nice - and that's because Pat is an unrepentant sinner with an unregenerate heart. I can deal with sinners meeting their job description; I have a hard time coping with sinners appealing to the person of Jesus Christ asking us to reform to Him and us not heeding their warnings.

Seems like one of those situations where the men of Ninevah will be in the position to stand up at the judgment and condemn us.

donna60 said...

Dear John Lollard,

Patrick Condell does not make very many intelligent arguements against Christianity. It is just that he has one of those snooty British accents, that we mistakenly credit as educated and intelligent.

I personally am crippled by a cross between a Texas "twang" and a Louiville drawl due to the part of the country I grew up in, (and on account of some family.)

Some people think I'm stupid where I live now, because of my accent. When I get tired it gets thicker.

Those people are in error.

John Lollard said...

Dear donna60,

I don't remember saying that he makes intelligent arguments against Christianity. He tends to make emotional and inflammatory rants against Christianity.

What I said is that a lot of what he says is Biblical.

Criticizing the moralizing clergy of England who live in palaces is Biblical. John the Baptist did just as much. Christian moralizing and rhetoric without tangible acts of service sacrifice is hypocrisy.

Pat Condell sees it, we don't. Woe unto us.

Or watch his thing on "Believing in Nothing". People have been telling him that he can't just believe in nothing, he has to believe in something, otherwise he'll go crazy. He replies to the effect that, if you only believe in something to keep from believing in nothing, then you already believe in nothing - you just haven't admitted it yet.

Which is also Biblical. The God of the Bible does not ask you to believe in him to make yourself feel better about your existence. He asks you to believe in him because he is real, is really God, and has really acted in history and has really acted in your life. Christians believe in Jesus not because of the warm fuzzies we get, but because Jesus really did live in history, really did save us in history, and really has saved me in my own life and really does act and work in my own life. That's why I believe in Him. Paul tells us, if Christ is not risen, then we are to be pitied above all others, for our faith is in vain.

It is worse than a colossal waste of time to believe in God for the sake of feeling better about yourself if there is not actually a God. Believing in him doesn't make him real.

Pat Condell sees it, but how many of us see it?

Like I said, actual insight from atheists is rare, but when you find it it is like a gem. But when you filter out all the hateful and emotional rhetoric and poetic invective, you can sometimes find a very clear, prophetic cry about how huge a failure Western Christianity has become.

Woe unto us, who ignore the prophets. Atheists are entering the Kingdom before us.

Love in Christ,
John Lollard

donna60 said...

Mr. John Lollard,

Church of Christ preachers don't make all of that much. I've been a member of a small church that pay their preacher $30,000, and a member of a church that payed their preacher $65,000.

Many of them get outside support, but that doesn't come to that much more. I've also seen preachers voluntarily take pay cuts when the local economy is wrecked, and the members are strapped for cash.

I have never been a member of a church-- (not in the bible-belt, where I grew up, and not in the north where I currently live,) that has paid our elders anything. And they are always there for us. Not just spiritually, or emotionally, but physically. They are every bit the shepherds they were chosen, by the church, to be

And I'm not denying there are some scamps. I've certainly heard the horror stories, but, I have been very fortunate. I have known some very good, decent, generous-natured elders.

I have known gentle-men, worthy, decent, strong men, who took cans of food from their wives' cabinets so that they could feed people who called their home, needing food.

And these men didn't brag about it. I only found out about it because their wives were complaining about coming home and their cabinets were nearly empty, so they had to be creative and make-do for dinner.

I don't feel particularly obliged to answer for any other religious denomination. I don't know very much at all about the Anglican church except for what I learned about it in a college course I took about the Renaissance. I think they are the Presbyterian in Scotland, and maybe, but I'm not sure, the Episcopalians in the U.S

On the other hand, if Mr. Condell wants to be an atheist because of the overpaid clergy in England, he is more than welcome.

It would be interesting to see if studying up on men who have made gentle, courageous contributions to the needy in a community would persuade Mr Condell to become a Christian, wouldn't it?

I also learned everything I know from my religion upbringing. Bible apologetics? High-School--yawn! I learned the bible from infancy until death. I don't know what half-brained nit-wit told him that he had to believe in something, because he couldn't believe in nothing, but it wasn't me,.. or my parents, or my preachers, or my bible-school teachers and elders.

On the other hand, if Mr. Condell wants to use this one person who told him this, as an excuse to not believe in God at all, once again, that is his perogative.

It is just that to me, those arguements, and all of his other arguements sound uninformed and illogical. I don't feel any need for him to speak for me in regards to how my country treats political correctness. I have other leaders that can speak for me.

Of course I don't live in England. I live in the US. Have you listened to his rant about the religious conservatives in the United States?

Which is his business, how?

John Lollard said...

... so if you agree that Pat is raising biblical criticisms against ritzy clerics and moral therapeutic deism...

I'm sorry, but I can't understand why you're arguing with me?

I don't presume to know what will make Mr. Condell repent, except the grace and mercy of God. If the Church globally behaved like the Biblical Church, he would likely find something else to moan about and would probably feel pretty smug when he did so. I'm sure Mr. Condell has no interest in reusing arguments from Biblical prophets, I'm just pointing out that he is, and that therefore I have a weird respect for him and his arguments.

I like that I can find true and proper critiques in the words of an unbeliever. Should I not?

donna60 said...

Dear John Lollard,

I'm sorry I didn't mean to argue with you. It wasn't my intention at all.

You and I have different concepts of what the universal church consists of.

I don't feel any obligation to the church of England at all. If the congregation I attended behaved in greedy, worthless ways, I would obey 2 Corinthians 6:17 and "come out from among them."

If I behaved in a greedy, worthless way, I would probably face some form of church discipline myself, at least in the churches I affiliate with.

And it is probably because I have much thinner skin than you do, but I prefer to get my reproaches and discipline from people who really love me and want me to do well.

And honestly, I don't know how the Church of England behaves. I don't even live in England, and if someone told me that Mr. Condell was misrepresenting the church, I would have no reason to disbelieve them.

In addition, he appears to blanket all church leaders with greed and lack of reasonableness, and all believers as sheeplike half-wits, and I know that that isn't true. I'm sure that more than one of my elders these past thirty some years, would tell you that I herd just about as easily as a feral cat.