Wednesday, August 4, 2010

How Can God Die?

With the possible exception of "Where did Jesus say, 'I am God; worship me'?" this is the most common question I hear from Muslims.

34 comments:

John Lollard said...

This video was brilliant. Btw, does Allah in the Quran ever say "I am God, worship me"?

Slatsette said...

*Thumbs up* Excellent!

Zack_Tiang said...

Yes.. agreed. Excellent video. I will be sharing this with others when opportunity arrises.

And yes, I'm interested to know the answer to Lollard's question.

Coptic Christian said...

Amazing video Br. David as always.

Can I ask you for a reference that Muslims believe that the Quran is the eternal word of Allah?

Thank you, and God bless you.

Brian said...

Don't let the Mayor of FearBorn Michigan see this because according to him acts 17 never shares the Gospel....On a serious note Good Job loved the presentation it was clear and to the point. Now to the church that is going to burn the Quran's I would say GROW UP its just a book burning it won't stop more from being printed. The message that sends to Muslims is a negative one and nothing good will come from it.

GreekAsianPanda said...

I think this is a very good video. I would have never thought of using the Quran as an analogy.

Regarding what you said about God being the greatest conceivable being. You said that because you love unbelievers, you are better than Allah, and therefore the Islamic concept of God is imperfect because you are a greater conceivable being than Allah. (Correct me if I am incorrect; I don't want to misrepresent your position.) But that's assuming that loving everyone is a virtue, but this is only true according to Christianity. So you're assuming that Christianity is true to prove that the Islamic concept of God is imperfect. Isn't this a fallacy?

Nazam said...

In answer to J.Lollard's question.

"Indeed, I am Allah . There is no god except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance."

Quran 20:14

Lazaro Lopez said...

Amen! Awesome brother.
The very heart of The Good News.
All apologetics have only one goal in mind...to plow, sow and plant the Life Giving Seed of The Word in the hearts of all people. As far as God entering into His own Creation, I have used Psalms 103; how God "covers Himself with light" or other Biblical statements describing God covering Himself with darkness, or clouds, or riding upon the wings of the wind, etc. Now in the burning bush speaking out of the fire, so why not In A Human Body..."A Body has Thou prepared Me." Heb. 10:5.

Locrian said...

Nazam is correct. It might be of note that the only time an entity demands worship using that exact phrase in the Bible is: Mat 4:9 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."

Most likely cause it's the same person that speaks through the Qur'an....

Hiwot said...

My question would be a little different from what John asked.

Does Allah ever spoke to Muhammad and said I am your God worship me in the Quran?

Sura 20:14 is about Allah speaking to Moses not to Muhammad. We can see it from verse 11 in the same chapter. Someone could say that 20:14 is taken from the Bible since the God of the bible spoke to Moses and told him that He is the only God and worship Him - Exodus 3, Deut 6.

So, Nazam or any Muslim, does Allah ever spoke to Muhammad and told him that He (Allah) is the only God and worship Him?

Nazam said...

Hiwot, here are some verses.

"O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous"

Q.2:21

"And your god is one God. There is no god [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful."

Q.2:163

"He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, Knower of the unseen and the witnessed. He is the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful."

Q.59:22

"Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - [for] indeed, he is to you a clear enemy. And that you worship [only] Me? This is a straight path."

Q.36:60-61

Anthony Rogers said...

Great video, David. This video is a keeper.

Sam said...

Nazam, can you show me where your Quran quotes Jesus saying the following:

1. I am the Messiah.

2. I am the son of Mary.

3. My mother conceived and give birth to me while still a virgin, having no man touch her.

4. I am a word from Allah.

5. I am a spirit from Allah.

I eagerly await your answers.

Hiwot said...

Thanks Nazam for the verses. But, my question was does Allah ever spoke to Muhammad and said I am your God worship me (like He did with Moses in Sura 20)?

Nazam said...

Hiwot,

I can't think of any verses where that is the case, perhaps, someone else may know? However, the above verses are generic and would also include Muhammed in the address, for example, "o mankind..."

Sam,

No, there's no verse that I am aware of where Jesus says those exact words.

Sam said...

So Nazam do you still believe that Jesus is:

1. The Messiah,

2. Conceived and born to the virgin Mary,

3. A Word from Allah,

4. And A Spirit proceeding from Allah even though Jesus never said it?

Moreover, can you quote a single verse from the Quran where Muhammad said I am a prophet of Allah?

Thank you.

Anthony Rogers said...

The last verse Nazam cited above strikes me as odd.

The verse does not really say to worship "only" Allah; that word has been added in translation.

Now I wouldn't object to a word being added to complete the sense in English, but in this case it does not seem to be doing that at all. Consider...

The passage says to worship Allah and not to worship Satan. But it gives a reason why mankind is not to worship Satan, i.e. because he is an open enemy to mankind. Does this mean if Satan wasn't an open enemy to mankind than it would have been okay to worship him or that it would have been possible for Allah to enjoin the worship of Satan on people?

In light of what we read in the Qur'an about Allah enjoining the worship of Adam upon the angels, and no doubt Adam was not an enemy of the angels, it would seem like this is more than just a possible line of reasoning from this verse.

If Allah could require the angels to worship Adam, then, by the same token, why couldn't Allah, if Satan was not an enemy to man, require mankind to worship Satan? And if Allah could enjoin upon the angels the worship of Adam, as we in fact know to be the case from the Qur'an, and if Allah could enjoin the worship of Satan provided the reason for not worshipping him has been removed, as the above verse seems to justify, then it is not the case that only Allah is to be worshipped. And for that reason it is no wonder the word "only" really isn't in this verse and should not have been added to the translation.

Of course even if the word "only" really should be added to this verse and the above inference about the possibility of Allah enjoining the worship of Satan on mankind does not follow, it is still the case that Allah enjoined upon the angels the worship of Adam, and in that case the verse would contradict what the Qur'an says elsewhere.

In the end, the teaching of (at least part of) the Qur'an is that Allah is to be worshipped but not exclusively; other beings are also required to worship any being that Allah requires them to worship. In short: shirk is disallowed except if (and when) shirk is commanded by Allah.

Is this what Muslims mean by "pure monotheism"? Go figure.

Anthony Rogers said...

Just to tie my above remarks into the subject of this post, did anyone notice that nowhere in the Qur'an is Adam quoted as saying, "Worship me"? Nevertheless Muslims believe he was a proper object of worship for the angels. Hmmmm

Nazam said...

Sam, Yes I still believe in these things about Jesus.

The Prophet Muhammed is not quoted as saying this in the Quran but in the Hadiths.

Nazam said...

Anthony can you show me an English translation of the Quran where God says to the angels 'worship' Adam?

Even in the last verse I quoted it does't say worship me alone, however, there are other verses that do say this. In the Arabic the statement 'la ilaha illa hu' is repeated many times and 'la ilaha il allahu' twice in the Quran. The statement means 'there is no object of worship except God/Him' or 'there is no deity except God/Him' it encompasses both meanings .

Fernando said...

Brother Sma asked Nazam: «can you quote a single verse from the Quran where Muhammad said I am a prophet of Allah?»...

hahahaha... I bet he won't answer this question...

Sam said...

Nazam, the Arabic Quran proves that the angels worshiped Adam. However, I will hold back and wait to see of Anthony wants to supply the evidence. If not then I will be only too glad to do so.

But since you asked for an English translation which says worship here goes:

[Remember] when we said unto the angels, worship ye Adam: And they [all] worshipped [him], except Eblis, [who] was [one] of the genii, and departed from the command of his Lord. Will ye therefore take him and his offspring for [your] patrons besides me, notwithstanding they are your enemies? Miserable [shall such] a change [be] to the ungodly! S. 18:50 Sale

Sam said...

So let me get this straight, Nazam. You believe that,

1. Jesus is the Messiah.

2. Jesus is the virgin born Son of Mary.

3. Jesus is a Word of Allah.

4. Jesus is a Spirit from Allah, even though Jesus never claimed any of these things for himself?

You also believe that Muhammad is a prophet of Allah even though the Quran never quotes him saying that he is?

This means that if you are consistent then surely you would have no problem with Christians believing that Jesus claimed to be fully Divine, God Incarnate, without Jesus having to use the exact words, "I am God." Am I correct?

Nazam said...

Fernado,

I admitted to Sam that there is no statement that I am aware of in the Quran where Muhammed is quoted Muhammed as saying "I am a prophet of Allah". But there is a verse where God orders Muhammed to say, "O mankind, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you all" (Surah 7:158)

Sam said...

Nazam, you know full well that messengers and prophets are distinct from one another according to the Quran. See Q. 22:52. So quoting a text where Muhammad says he is an apostle doesn't qualify as an answer. However, you did admit that Muhammad never said he was a prophet in the Quran.

hugh watt said...

Where in the Quran does Allah say; "Muhammad, you are the final and greatest of all the prophets." So far as I see, it's Muslims who make this claim not Allah nor Muhammad himself! So what makes him any different to Joseph Smith?

Toll said...

Where does Jesus say "I am God, worship me."? He said it to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

redzot said...

I stopped listening when you accused the other persons god of being incorrect...

I mean its all well and good but your not going to win any hearts and minds and i guess more importantly souls if you tell them that there own beliefs are flat out wrong... turns them off.. turned me off... and i am neither Christian or Muslim. I think your all idiots.

Also.. I think what happened to you at the festival was wrong and uncalled for. However your return trip was simply provoking not only the Muslims that (however rudely) asked you to leave but also the perceived authority of the police in Dearborn. You should just back off and let the courts settle it... Once that happens then you follow the rule of the judge.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

This applies to you... but it also applies to them as well... and me.. If you approach me a "non believer" Remember that your violating my perceived personal space and will not react well with that violation.

Nazam said...

Why only limit the question to the Quran? The Qur'an is not the only source of authoritative text of scripture for the Muslim, like the Bible is to born again Christians. The Prophetic statements are as well and we find the Prophet saying that in the Hadith literature.

Sam said...

Nazam, I am glad you admit that he hadiths of your false prophet are authortative. So now instead of running away like your hero Shabir can you justify the fase predictions of your false prophet who mistakenly claimed Jesus would descend during the lifetime of his own companions? And will you condemn your prophet for curing his followers proving that he was a rude, offensive, merciless person who could not engage in civil discourse? I am not going to let your run from this.

Fisher said...

Just so y'all know, some fellow by the name of "Farhan00" attempted a video response to this. I have posted a video response of my own refuting his points. I must say, Dr. White was absolutely right when he said Islam is incapable of arguing against the incarnation (other than perhaps setting up strawman versions of it and knocking those down).

ipola said...

verse quoted in defense of the “trinity” is the verse of John 1:1 : “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
1) First of all, these words are acknowledged by every erudite Christian scholar of the Bible as the words of another Jew, Philo of Alexandria, who claimed no divine inspiration for them, and who had written them long before John or Jesus (pbut) were born. Groliers encyclopedia has the following to say under the heading “Logos”(“the word”): “Heraclitus was the earliest Greek thinker to make logos a central concept ......In the New Testament, the Gospel According to Saint John gives a central place to logos; the biblical author describes the Logos as God, the Creative Word, who took on flesh in the man Jesus Christ. Many have traced John's conception to Greek origins—perhaps through the intermediacy of eclectic texts like the writings of Philo of Alexandria.”
2) Internal evidence provides serious doubt as to whether the apostle John the son of Zebedee wrote this Gospel himself. In the dictionary of the Bible by John Mckenzie we read “A. Feuillet notes that authorship here may be taken loosely.” Such claims are based on such verses as 21:24: “This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.”????? Also see 21:20, 13:23, 19:26, 20:2, 21:7, and 21:20-23. The “disciple who Jesus loved” according to the church is John himself, but the author speaks of him as a different person. In other words, what we have here is a Gospel which someone wants us to think was written by the apostle John, but which in fact was not written by him.
3) The Gospel of John was written at or near Ephesus between the years 110 and 115 (some say 95-100) of the Christian era by this, or these, unknown author(s). According to R. H. Charles, Alfred Loisy, Robert Eisler, and other scholars of Christian history, John of Zebedee was beheaded by Agrippa I in the year 44 CE, long before the fourth Gospel was written.
4) C.J. Cadoux writes in “The life of Jesus”: “The speeches in the fourth Gospel (even apart from the earlier messianic claim) are so different from those in the Synoptics, and so like the comments of the Fourth evangelist himself, that both cannot be equally reliable as records of what Jesus said: Literary veracity in ancient times did not forbid, as it does now, the assignment of fictitious speeches to historical characters: the best ancient historians made a practice of composing and assigning such speeches this way.”
5) Even if we are to take this verse as authentic, then we must notice the following: In the “original” Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), the first occurrence of the word “God” is the Greek word “θεόυ,” (Hotheos) which means “The God,” or “God” with a capital “G” to denote a proper noun. The second occurrence of the word “God” is the Greek “θεός ,” (Tontheos) meaning “a god,” or “god” (any god, not necessarily the almighty). So, if the translators were consistent in their translation, they would have written the above verse as follows: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god” (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording). If we look at a different verse, 2 Corinthians 4:4, we find the exact same word is used to describe the devil, however, now the system has dishonestly been reversed: “(and the devil is) the god of this world.” According to the system of the previous verse and the English language, the translation of the description of the devil should also have been written as “God” with a capital “G.” If Paul was inspired to use the same word to describe the devil, then why should we change it? Why is this word translated as simply a “god” when referring to the devil, but translated as the almighty “God” when referring to a “word”? Are we now starting to get a glimpse of how the “translation” of the Bible took place?

Hiwot said...

Good job Fisher. Indeed he made several mistakes including his explanation of mercy in Christianity…

Turker said...

How can u say yeshua claim to be god ,dats right lets get His name right first ,when he himself claimed hiis father is god.I didn't know god was mortal I'm pretty sure he is immortal and cannot die.why does he sit on the right side of god and not on the throne .You find negative parts in the kuran ,but you dnt look at ur bible which has lots of negatives.