We only ask for help when we really need it. Nabeel and I are going to Michigan next week. We're responsible for paying our own way. However, we spent all our funds on replacing a damaged video camera. (We hope the dialogues at the Arab Festival are peaceful, but we need cameras in case Muslims decide to kick our heads in.)
Muslims have threatened us with death if we return to the festival, so now we definitely have to show up. (I might post some of the more colorful death threats we've received, along with the email addresses of those who have promised to kill us.)
Our greatest financial needs are the plane tickets and rental car fees. Our tickets are $288.30 and $221.43, and the rental car fee is $223.67. (This is for a week; there will be a few days of training, several public debates, mosque outreach on Friday, and trips to the Arab Festival on the weekend.) I'm not sure how much insurance will cost for the car, so I'm estimating an additional $100. That comes to $833.40. I've made a "Chip In" for those who would like to help.
I've already ordered the camera, but if anyone would like to contribute to the cost of the camera, you can do it here:
I'm sure we'll have plenty of video footage to share after next weekend. We have one of the most powerful assemblies of apologists and evangelists to Muslims in history. On the apologetics side, there's Sam Shamoun, James White, Tony Costa, Mary Jo Sharp, Nabeel, me, and a few others. On the evangelist side, there are a ton of people. Several of the regular commenters here on AM will be there as well. (Our little sister Negeen is coming too!)
In case you don't know what happened last year at the festival, here's what happens when a Christian asks a question in Dearborn without showing the proper Dhimmi attitude. (Notice that the Muslims also assaulted our sister Mary Jo several times, despite the fact that she was simply standing there holding a camera.)
This is going to a wonderful opportunity to proclaim the gospel to our Muslim neighbours. Unfortunately there are forces who would seek to hinder us. I have been informed from relaible sources that the their are some in the Muslim community who are seeking to turn Dearborn into Saudia Arabia.
Please pray that the Lord would give us much wisdom espeacally when we at the festival.
Although it would make Osama decidedly happy, I do hope I didn't just help to send anyone to their demise.
May the Lord deliver all of you who are going from the jaws of those who would love to devour you
Demise? Why, did any Muslim threaten us? Ultimately, our life is in the hand of the sovereign Triune God who has decreed the length of our years.
Hey Brother Sam,
David mentioned something about threats, and although I know you guys are as safe on the battle field as you are at home in your beds, resting in the confidence and peace that are ours in God through Christ our Lord, I just wanted to use the occasion to remind everyone of the hate that fills the hearts of men like Osama and to voice my prayer that our God would be with you just as He has promised: "All authorirty has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go...And behold! I am with you always,..."
Well, David, my two cents:
Maybe you have to go back in. Maybe it makes sense to have a general on the front lines. Maybe. That's how the ancient Greeks did it. I just hope you will take care not to provoke needlessly, that you will tell the truth in as conciliatory a way as possible.
Or not go. Maybe it's better for you to save yourself for your shows and broadcasts. Would it make sense for Father Boutros to go into the lion's den? Doesn't the Father do much more good by doing show after show and staying alive? Can't others be on the front lines? Can't many more take your place at that festival than can take your place on your shows, should you become a casualty? You are young. You could have a long career ahead, helping Christians and Muslims.
Maybe going into the lion's den must be part of that career. I'm just trying to make sure you've thought, with your customary rigor, about whether that's really where you can do the most good.
True, sometimes reaching one's full stature may require many tests of courage; and reaching one's full stature might be the only way to do the most good possible...But doing your broadcasts is already a big test of your courage. Maybe doing the shows is sufficient!
Just like expected from almost any muslim, not much surprising to me how the security gurads tried to harass you all. Thats the best they can do beleive me on that. Its hard for muslims to face truth of Jesus Christand thats why their prophet told them not to be friends with Christians. They are always acting according to what they are commanded, be it the chat rooms, world trade centre or any part of the world where islam goes, the trouble is already there.
American have to wake up for the rights of the rest of the Americans besides muslims. i pray for safety of you all as you are there. May you all go their under the mighty wings of God and prepare table before you in the presence of the enemy(i do not mean muslims but satan. Stay away from trouble you have many greater things to do for the Kingdom of our God.
God bless you all.
God bless you guys for not backing down to intimidations and takiya.
"Ultimately, our life is in the hand of the sovereign Triune God who has decreed the length of our years."
This reminds me of that story about a holy man who was told there would be a flood. Another man came to the holy man's house and said, "holy man, come with me now in my car, I will save you from the flood." The holy man said, "No, God will take care of me." So the other man drove off in his car. It began to pour so hard that the wise man had to go up on his roof, as the water level rose and rose. A man in a boat came by and said he would save the holy man, who said, "no, God will save me." So the boat went away. Finally a helicopter came, as the water was rising above the man's roof. A ladder was lowered, and still the holy man said, "no thank you, God will save me." So finally the helicopter flew away. After a while, the holy man drowned and went to heaven. Standing before God, the holy man said, "God, I believed in you. Why didn't you save me?" And God said, "I sent you a car, then I sent you a boat, and then I sent you a helicopter!"
God often works through the things of this world and through earthly limitations, including through ourselves, so from that point of view, it's partly up to us when we die and how we die. And there is real human freedom, so perhaps God does not always determine in advance how or when we will die.
Ultimately everything is turned to the Good and the Eternal, but not immediately. I do think the length of our years is sometimes determined in advance by heaven. But the world and human destiny may be complex enough that God does not always or entirely decree the number of our years. I suspect there is sometimes flexibility. Sometimes there seem to be dialogues between man and God, converse that happens in dreams, or near death, or otherwise, and thus people sometimes confer with the divine about whether years can be prolonged. Or shortened. I recall an account from a woman who lost all vital signs, clinically died, felt her soul rise out of her body and into a heavenly world where she met a being of light she perceived to be God or Jesus. The Being asked her to come and be with Him. She felt great joy, and she felt tremendous love coming from the Being of light, and she laughed and said "But I want to go back, I haven't danced enough yet!" At that, Jesus laughed with her and agreed to her going back. Whereupon she found herself again back in her body.
I believe in God, but I think God's superlative qualities do not include omnipotence or omniscience, insofar as human freedom is real. Since our decision processes are real, the outcome of our decision processes cannot always be known in advance, not even by God. If God knew in advance everything we were going to decide, then our decision-making processes would not really be decision-making processes. They would be a sham, because the outcome would already have been decided in advance. And for similar reasons God is not omnipotent: human freedom is real, perhaps especially since Christ's incarnation. I suspect the notion that God must be omnipotent and omniscient comes from man conceiving God in the image of earthly tyrants; and we know a lot about that from Islam. Nicholas Berdaev wrote at times about how the true Christian God was a God of freedom, and about how authoritarians and tyrants had tried to reconceive the Christian God in an authoritarian image, to help enforce earthly authorities. Charles Hartshorne claimed there is nothing in scripture that really requires the notion that God is omniscient or omnipotent.
I wouldn't be surprised if all this is familiar to Sam...including whatever parts he might think false.
"Although it would make Osama decidedly happy, I do hope I didn't just help to send anyone to their demise.
May the Lord deliver all of you who are going from the jaws of those who would love to devour you"
I say it with honesty, if I were there and saw David, Nabeel, Mary Jo and any of their crews being attacked, I would defend them by taking the punches. ALSO, LET'S CUT THE CRAP AND THE MAGNIFICATION OF LIES! I receive "threats" all the time. People spew nonsense from their mouths all the time. Don't make it sound like you're living in a jungle. In Virginia Beach, I WALKED INTO REDNECKS TERRITORY AND HAD NO FEAR! My advice: Take it like a man for what it is.
Well done good and faithful servants. Keep being a shining light to those who dwell in darkness and seek to spread the darkness (Islam).
Okay, Osama, I hear what you are saying here. I've also heard what you've said elsewhere. Putting it all together makes you look schizophrenic.
One could only hope if you were present on such an occasion that it would be as Osama1, I.e. the guy who takes punches for another, and not as Osama2, i.e. the guy who hates Americans, Rednecks, Latinos, and who likes to slap the *&=# out of women .
Traeh, some brotherly advice. Go back and study the Scriptures more carefully because the theology you are espousing is unbiblical and borders on heresy. It seems you are more into the almighty free will of man than into God's sovereignty.
Spend less time philosophizing and more time exgeting Biblical texts such as Job 14:5; Psalm 33:10-11; 115:3; 135:6; 139:16; Proverbs 16:1-4.
If I had more time I would dissect your entire post and refute it Biblically. But unfortunately for you I don't have that kind of time right now.
So Traeh I appreciate it if you don't chime in with very bad analogies which demean God and exalt the free will of man. You insult me when you do that.
"Okay, Osama, I hear what you are saying here. I've also heard what you've said elsewhere. Putting it all together makes you look schizophrenic.
One could only hope if you were present on such an occasion that it would be as Osama1, I.e. the guy who takes punches for another, and not as Osama2, i.e. the guy who hates Americans, Rednecks, Latinos, and who likes to slap the *&=# out of women ."
Never once did I declare hate on any group of people! I challenge anyone to prove me wrong on this one. In fact, I made it clear that I don't hate any group of people, "INCLUDING THE JEWS" (quoting myself verbatim). And my disagreements and resentment of the evil that the US Government does and has is something that actually many Americans agree with me on. The last I heard on, ironically, FOX News, *******More than 42% of the American people believe that 9/11 was an inside job. How do you think these people feel about their government?And if true, wouldn't you then agree with me? Why should 1.5 people in Afghanistan and Iraq die for such a lie?
As to Latinos, again, I never said that I hate them. I just pointed out the high rate of prostitution that exists among them. Not to mention that their countries are infested with drugs and drug gangs and lords. Also, their women's clothes are too sexually provocking! You can see this on any Spanish TV channel. To me as a Muslim, this is pornography. Why should my comment be taken as racist or hateful to a certain group of people?
", and who likes to slap the *&=# out of women ."
I never said that. I think you're referring to my comment about the Bethsheba and king David adultery, which caused for her husband to be killed through a conspiracy. I said, if this was my sister, then her brothers, including myslef, would skin her alive ALONG WITH THE BOYFRIEND.
How is that sexist or against women?
Be careful of what you read. Those people you quoted aren't good refs'.
My prayers are with you all.
there's plenty of scripture that requires God to be omniscient and omnipotent.
Those are His very quality, just as He is omnipresent and omni-love (=P).
There is human free will, but God is still sovereign over our free will.
His sovereignty and our free will must go hand in hand, it can't be more free will than God's sovereignty.
God's sovereignty (omniscient/omnipotent) is shown by the fact that He is not limited by time and space. He sees the past, the present and the future; altogether!
But, just because He's been to the future, doesn't mean that He has decided for us our every decision.
Depending on some situations, He would have intervene (Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God, King Saul was driven to madness by a evil spirit from God, the holy Spirit prevented Paul from going to particular towns at some times, etc).
it's hard for me to explain really, but God is omniscient and omnipotent...
And that's why most of everyone are opposed to your view, traeh.
May God bless you and the truth set you free (John 8:32).
Almost anything is possible.Bush certainly stole the election from Gore.
Obama certainly doesn't want to show his birth certificate because he was not born in the US.
9/11 an inside job?It could be Bush knew Al-Qaida was going to crash the planes and decided to let it happen and even helped along destroying the whole buildings.
And maybe not.But there is a possibility.Bush is certainly no Christian,I realized that even before I became a Christian.
I hope Osama1 is in there with you because I want to talk to both of you. It has been about a year since we last talked, but I still remember that one or the other of you do not like sarcasm (I thinks it's you, but it could be Osama1). I do hope you will bear with me nonetheless; after all, I'm not very fond of thinking of a brother skinning his own sister like a fish, but I am willing to bear with you. (As much as I hated to think about it, I couldn't help but wonder whether you prefer a machete or a potato peeler as your instrument of choice and also if you liked the movie Silence of the Lambs.)
When you say,
"I never said that. I think you're referring to my comment about the Bethsheba and king David adultery, which caused for her husband to be killed through a conspiracy. I said, if this was my sister, then her brothers, including myslef, would skin her alive ALONG WITH THE BOYFRIEND."
You are forgetting that at the same time that you laid into Bathsheba, and women in general, and also told us that you would peel your sister like a banana if she did such a thing, you also said:
"There are several reasons why a man NOT ONLY SHOULD BEAT HIS WIFE, but beat the day lights out of her as well!"
I don't know if Osama1 heard you say this, but I would like to know, if he were there, would he defend your sister and "take the punches [read: slices]" that you think she would have coming to her?
Osama2, as for the following statement:
"Never once did I declare hate on any group of people! I challenge anyone to prove me wrong on this one. In fact, I made it clear that I don't hate any group of people, "INCLUDING THE JEWS" (quoting myself verbatim)."
Maybe you didn't say this, but Osama1 certainly did:
"TRULY, JEWS AND CHRISTIANS ARE INDEED, BY THE ABSOLUTE FARTHEST, THE FILTHIEST SCUMS OF ALL HUMANS ON PLANET EARTH, with the exception of few who were promised Paradise by Allah Almighty!"
I'm sorry that this has nothing at all to do with the topic... but I thought this article was hilarious... just from the title alone.. haha
'Follow the Islamic way to save the world,' Prince Charles urges environmentalists
Insult you? I don't see how my having a perspective insults you. Perhaps we've misunderstood each other. But since I'm hardly infallible, it's possible I've insulted you somehow without being aware of it, in which case I'm sorry.
I have now read the verses you cited. I grasp and everyone else should grasp the obvious: that if you don't respond to this it's not that you agree or have nothing to say, but that you are busy with other debates, work, life.
I'll go through the verses you referred me to:
Job 14:5 says to God that He has determined man's days and decreed the number of his months, and set limits he cannot exceed.
My response to this verse is:
1. I understand there are limits set by heaven that human beings cannot exceed.
2. The above statement by Job contains nothing I can see that requires one to conclude it allows of no exceptions or qualifications whatsoever. Job could be speaking of a general pattern or rule, not a rule without any qualifications. For example, people sometimes repent and may live longer than they would have lived otherwise. Or less long. I think I have heard Sam -- or perhaps it was David -- point out that God is very patient and gives human beings many chances to repent, but at some point unrepentant human beings will fall into hell. So, Sam, doesn't God's patient waiting mean that God hopes for something He is not sure will happen? He hopes a human being will repent and be redeemed, but He is not sure that will happen, He is not omniscient about that question, because it depends on human decisions not yet made.
3. Apart from possible qualifications to the rule in Job's time, Job's statement in the above verse does not say the rule will always be true in the same exact way for all times. What if, as human consciousness matures over centuries and millennia, a more co-creative partnership in questions of personal human destiny, appears in the relation between human beings and God? The notion that there is nothing new under the sun is an ahistorical and thus pre-Judeo-Christian perception of things; the ancient perception of time as cyclical was superceded by the Jewish discovery of unreapeatable history and therefore of unique personal history and true, unrepeatable individuals. Couldn't the divine and the human have advanced a little, and couldn't our knowledge of them also have advanced a little, since the time of Job's inspirations? I see nothing in truth that calls for us to take Job as the last word.
Psalm 33:10-11 says that God foils the plans of the nations but the plans of God stand firm forever through all generations.
Sam, I believe and know that God is and eternally will be the highest. But that does not mean He is omnipotent or omniscient. Psalm 33:10-11 does not say that human beings have no freedom, nor does it say that God controls every single thing and every single action and thought of every person at every moment, i.e., that He is omnipotent.
33:10-11 says that God, the living truth, foils the ambitions of the nations; they seek to endlessly expand their earthly realms and powers and to banish death in an earthly way, all at the expense of truth and goodness. What the above verse says is that God is never in the long run defeated or resisted; sin is always eventually defeated. God in the long run coordinates all things and ultimately redeems and makes good all sin. But none of that, nor the verse above, requires that God be in control at every moment of our every action, i.e., that God be omnipotent and that human beings have no real freedom.
(To be continued in the following post)
(To Sam, continued from my post immediately above)
Psalm 115:3 says that God is in heaven and does whatever pleases him.
Psalm 135:6 says God does whatever pleases him in the heavens and on the earth, and to the bottom of the oceans.
In terms of logic, the statement that God does whatever pleases him, whatever he wants to, does not necessarily mean, does it, that He is omnipotent and can do just anything and everything notionally conceivable. On the contrary, suppose God only wants to do what He can do. Then the above psalm verses could represent not God's omnipotence, but harmony between His desires and His powers.
Psalm 139:16 tells God that His eyes saw the writer's unformed body and that all the days ordained for him were written in God's book before the first of those days came into existence.
My above response to the Job verse will stand for a response to Psalm 139:16, since they deal with the same question.
Proverbs 16:1-4 ends by saying that God works out everything for His own ends, even the wicked for a day of disaster.
16:1-4 does not require a belief in omnipotence nor a disbelief in human freedom. It can mean simply that God always wins in the end, in the long run.
None of these verses by themselves shows that God is omnipotent or omniscient, nor that that there is no such thing as human freedom.
You say I am demeaning God and exalting human freedom above God. I certainly don't want to do that. And if I'm mistaken, I hope I can learn to see my mistakes. I believe that one reason Christianity is relatively weak in Europe and by some accounts weakening in the U.S. is that people too often demean and misunderstand God and Jesus by conceiving God as if He were like an omnipotent tyrant and dictator whose pervasive surveillance extends omnisciently even to all the outcomes of all our own decision-processes, even before those outcomes have been reached.
To avoid misunderstanding, I probably should have said at the very beginning that I understand that in the deeper sense, the freedom that Christ brings is responsibility, not license. Was it Augustine who said, that provided you are truly loving, you have absolute freedom, you can do whatever you will? Love -- love properly so called and not the many counterfeits -- seems to be that form of reality in which absolute freedom and absolute responsibility become one. I wonder if my not saying the like earlier is one reason you reacted in the way you did, as if I had been promoting the ethos of libertines.
Traeh, why am I not surprised that you twist and distort the meaning of these passages in order to maintina your belief in the almighty sovereignty of man's free will?
Do you really want me to drop everything and go through your "reply" and refute your gross eisegesis? I will be more than happy to do that to show you how you are demeaning God and imposing your own spin and interpretation upon these texts in order to promote and affirm the almighty free will of man at the expense of the sovereignty of God.
Better yet, why don't you come on Paltalk since in that way I can demonstrate the error of your eisegesis and record it so that others can listen to what happens when a person imposes his imperfect, fallible spin upon God's word in order to make it fit in with his unblblical philosophical presuppositions and traditions.
Let me know when you sign up on Paltalk so I can invite you in the room and begin refuting your assault against God's glorious sovereignty so as to exalt your creaturely free will.
Your approach is not only insulting to God and to those who love him but is outright dangerous since this is the path of the cults and heretics who manhandle God's Word in order to keep to their traditions and philosophies.
"To avoid misunderstanding, I probably should have said at the very beginning that I understand that in the deeper sense, the freedom that Christ brings is responsibility, not license."
You should have said this from the start.
Rev.19:6 "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."
Rev.19:6 "Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
For our Lord God Almighty reigns."
Job 24:1 "Why, seeing times are not hidden from the Almighty, do they that know him not see his days?"
Isaiah 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please."
'In Virginia Beach, I WALKED INTO REDNECKS TERRITORY AND HAD NO FEAR! My advice: Take it like a man for what it is.'
Rednecks aren't beheading apostates, raping pre-pubescent girls and planting car bombs wherever they can find a spot. You were perfectly safe in Virginia Beach. I wonder how Nabeel would do in Saudi Arabia...
Hi, would highly recommend you to read Martin Luthers "The bondage of the will". He destroyed Erasmus of Rotterdam's argumentation totally.
Only God is free and HE can do what pleases HIM to do.
Did you understand what Augustine wanted to say with: ama et fac quod vis?
Augustine said that in a certain way we have a free will: we can decide what to eat, what to drink, what to wear etc. but regarding the faith without Jesus, we are in bondage and not free.
A bird with a broken fly, even if it wants to fly, it won't.
Jesus said: "that whoever wants to follow me, has to deny himself." as long as you stick to your free will you won't be able to follow Christ.
I am vey happy that this blog is not "pro free-will", because free will is nothing more than a heresy already refuted by Augustine when he confronted Pelagius.
I had read that one a bit also.It appeared in jihadwatch.org by ROBERT SPENCER.
Did you also read in faithfreedom.org by ALI SINA that BEN LADEN is hiding in IRAN(for quite some time now),according to a Kuwaiti newspaper?And that Turkey knows all about it.
Hi traeh... I really enjoied your oppinions... thats one off the aspects off Christianity: unity in the essential and charity in whate is nott as such... everyone has sometthing to learn withe the others... butt, as I saide itt before eben in this blogg, I do not think this blog is the bestt way to debate our intra-Christian differences... please, dear brother: keep reading all the authors you want butt always try to integraet their teachings into the Biblical message as I trully beliebe you really want to do... my blessings are withe you and your beloved family...
As I saide: I do not think this is the right place to debate intra-Christian differencies... butt I'm really interested in the difference you presented on whate Augustin saide about free-will and free-will in relation withe faite and being so and without entering a debate I would like to gibe a feedback...
I'm sure, by your words, you also know thate realitty... withoute the grace off God no one can operatte whate is teh good at God's eyes and in the context off God's goal to humanity... without the grace off God pourred in the Cross there is no real liberty and liberty, in this way, is always liberty only to do God's will...
how beautifull is to now this: doing evil is no freedom whatsoever: its a mechanical choice due to our egoísme...
God bless you all...
of course this is a blog where islam is the main focus, but it is also right to correct fale claims or statements made by some of the bloggers.
I am not a scholar nor a theologian. I love to read a lot and always looking for the right literature.
I think free will is a vry motional and too logic concept, that's why I have to reject it too and of course because the bible rejects it. John 1:13 is a very important passage and we can't deny its clear statement.
I admit that I don't fully grasp God'sovereignity, but I believe it.
There are thousands of thing on this earth we don't fully grasp but we believe it.
Free will is often used to explain evil. I think this approach is dangerous.
As individuals we are used to look upon ourselfs, but in christianity there is no "you" but Christ. Christ is our new "I". God is the only one who can say "I am", if we understand this we understand a lot. If we are in Christ, we are free.
Paul said that "from this moment on not me is living but Christ in me." - sorry if I don't quote him exactly, but this is in essence what he said.
I am far away to be an expert on Augustine, but I want to dig deeper into his works.
In his early days he was pro "free will" but than changed and dismissed it as a heresy.
"Love and do what you want."
If you love you can't do any bad, so in love you can do everything.
Can I take drugs, can I kill someone, can I have more than one wife? - NOOOO!!!! That's no love.
God's love is the true love and He can do everything. 1.John 4:8: "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."
For those who are interested, here is what Augustine said with more context:
"Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good."
Although the above is not altogether irrelevant to the discussion, I think the following quote is more to the point:
"....Of course, the apostle Paul could not do all this by his own power. Rather, he said: “I can do all things through Him who strengtheneth me.” Strengthen me, that I too may be able. Thou commandest continence; give what
Thou commandest, and command what Thou wilt."
And just in case Osama is still reading, the above should not be understood to mean:
"Strengthen me to beat the daylights out of my wife, and to be filled with as much hate as possible towards Jews and Christians. Ameen."
I had read that one a bit also.It appeared in jihadwatch.org by ROBERT SPENCER.
Did you also read in faithfreedom.org by ALI SINA that BEN LADEN is hiding in IRAN(for quite some time now),according to a Kuwaiti newspaper?And that Turkey knows all about it."
Well, I am aware that they are people claiming Osama is now at Iran.. (though evidences I've seen show Osama has been dead for some years now, but put that aside for now)
Imagine that.. Osama, the big kahuna of the al-Qaeda is in Iran...
And what do you know... apparently the Bilderberg meeting has 'green-lighted' going into war in Iran...
(Mentioned in the first video, near the end I think. have a listen to the rest, I recommend. =) )
"Free will is often used to explain evil. I think this approach is dangerous."
Funny... so that means God made Eve fall for Satan's deception and Adam eat the apple and fall into sin.
I find that the nonexistence of 'free will' more dangerous than its existence.
let's see the implications of no free will:
1 - What's the alternative? I can only think of predestination. If there is no free will, then God have created robots and have programmed us to either love him or rebel against Him.
2 - Also ,that would mean God had already decided (predestined) who goes to heaven and created others who will go to hell.. now where have we heard that one from? *coughqucoughrancough*
David, Nabeel, Sam... I love you guys and I want you to know that to me, you're real heroes. I wish I had some worthwhile money to send you but I'll just chip in a few bucks and back it up with prayer. "Father God, in the precious Name of your only Beloved Son, allow me to lift up my brothers in Christ who take their mission for you so personally and so seriously. Precious Lord, you know how we love them all and I plead especially for the health and safety of David and Nabeel as well as for the well-being of their loved ones and their friends in mission. Father, be glorified in their work that thousands of Muslim people will be set free of the bondage by which they're oppressed. You alone, Lord Jesus, are King, Christ and God and we just surrender all of this to you - Precious Lord - for YOUR WILL TO BE DONE - and we know that it is your will that not one would be lost. Father, we plead for Muslim souls. Lord, we plead for lost souls from every walk and from every background and we ask you to purify our lives and hearts so that we can be your instruments of reconciliation and edification. Lord, we pray for captives to be set free. Lord, we pray that bondage may be broken and that the spiritually blind be given sight of your precious love on the Cross. Have thine own way, Lord! Have thine own way! Father, I plead for deliverance for nations from the blindness and half-heartedness that has facilitated the growth of the evil ideology of Islam. REVIVE US, O Lord by the Son of Thy Love! And Lord Jesus, cover us anew in thy precious blood and let us be crucified with you. Fill us, Holy Spirit! Enable and Empower us to joyfully go and bring in the sheaves. Again, Lord... thine be ALL the glory! We trust in none other, Sovereign Lord, Yahweh God! World without end, from everlasting to everlasting: Beloved Father, Precious Son, Gracious Holy Spirit - ye our only hope. We LOVE you, Lord! We repent of sin and ask for forgiveness, renewal and empowerment to do YOUR work in YOUR way, Precious Father! I plead now, King Jesus, for revival in ALL of the houses of the Only Living God that we will be focused on YOUR work of reconciliation and hope - that your gracious Kingdom will be manifest in the hearts of people through love and the fruit of thy precious Holy Spirit. To you, Lord God - in the mighty Name of Jesus - be all glory, honor and power. It is by your Grace, Lord that we pray it in Jesus precious Name... AMEN!"
Sam, I'd like to come to your Paltalk group, but not to debate with you. I'd be more interested in listening. I learn a lot that way, and having watched you on the Jesus and Muhammad show many times, I know how knowledgeable you are, and I expect I'd learn a great deal from listening to you interact with a group.
I wouldn't want to argue with you any further, because I don't sense friendliness from you, but rather something like hostility, belligerence, pugnacity, impatience, and an insistence that you are being insulted or offended, when all I've done is express my current thoughts on God, freedom, and a few biblical verses. If you want to be offended, go right ahead, but it has nothing to do with me. To me it seems like you are offended because I have my own perspective and it doesn't agree with yours. It seems like you want to pepper your statements to me with an incipient ad hominem quality, and in fact I feel insulted by you. But it doesn't matter; it's just a part of the territory of people arguing their thoughts: in their intolerance and impatience and weakness they sometimes insult each other without really wanting to do so. That's one reason I love Socrates: the grace and politeness with which he defeated his opponents in argument. I gather that for other reasons, he has sometimes been called a Christian before the time of Christ. In any case, Sam, suppose my view of God is wrong; there is nothing insulting about a person having mistaken views, provided that person is willing to listen and learn.
Regarding salvation in one of LEE STROBEL's book( "The Case for the Real Jesus",pages 76-77) a question was asked:"If believing the Bible is INERRANT is necesary for salvation?"
The person said NO.I believe it is inerrant but it is true,one can reject parts of it or even have heretical doctrines yet still be saved...what saves is Jesus in your heart,as your savior,that he died and rose from the dead as your savior.The MINIMUM.
There are many Christians who don't believe the Bible is inerrant or who have doctrines we find wrong but they would still be saved.
I believe FRANCIS of ASSISI was saved,though I don't agree with his aproval of praying to the Catholic saints.
SAID LIKE A TRUE CHRISTIAN
Jihadwatch posted a letter by one of the Egyptian Christians who was temporarily harassed by a few people at the Spencer-Geller rally.He cleared things up(will the mainstream press point to it,doubt it):
"Dear Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer,
I am Joseph Nassralla, a Coptic Christian activist from Egypt and founder of The Way TV, a Christian Satellite TV station.
I attended the 10,000 person protest rally against the building to the ground zero mosque which took place at ground zero in NY on Sunday June 6th. We Coptic Christians wanted to express our full support to your initiative and to this important rally.
"There was a minor incident at the rally that was blown out of proportion, when my partner, Mr. Karam El Masry, and I were distributing material with some Quran verses and we were also speaking Arabic thus we were mistaken by a few people in the huge crown, for being Muslims infiltrators trying to disrupt the event. This misunderstanding was clarified when we explained who we were and that we are there to support the crowd against the building of the mosque. I was a little frustrated initially for being identified as a Muslim infiltrator, but was glad that the issue was resolved later. My partner, Mr. El Masry, was even able to freely speak to the crowd after our identity was clarified. He explained how Christians are tortured, killed and oppressed in Egypt at the hands of Muslims who are encouraged to persecute Christians from the pulpit of mosques by Muslim preachers.
The reason I am writing to you, is because I am very disappointed in the mainstream media who used this minor incident to make a blanket generalization about all the attendees of the rally as Muslim haters.This kind of generalization was unfair to the good American people who legitimately stand against the building of a mosque next to ground zero and who are against Islamist agenda in the US. I am very well aware of such an agenda which has destroyed the Christian and Jewish existence in the Middle East."
"The same mainstream media who denounces painting all Muslims with a broad brush, is doing the same thing they claim to stand against. They shamelessly use our incident to paint with a broad brush that everyone in the rally was a Muslim hater. I want to make it clear that we are not haters of Muslims, but we are against the Islamist agenda in America, the same agenda that drove us out of our homeland Egypt. We have the right to expose Muslim hate and oppression against us, the minorities in the Middle East who are oppressed on a daily basis by the Muslim majority. This mosque should never be built next to ground zero, it is an insult to the memory of the 3000 fellow Americans.
We did not mean to cause any misunderstanding at the rally, on the contrary, we came to support you and your organization. We come from a Muslim country where we suffered from Muslims and the Islamic Shariaa ourselves. That's why we felt burdened to attend this rally and flew for 9 hours to be part of it.. We do support you with our heart and soul, and will always support you and everyone who is opposing Islam. We do honor Mr. Robert's invitation to attend your next rally in September, God's willing, and are looking forward to seeing you there.
We have come to America to seek refuge from the oppression of Islam and expose to the American public what kind of instigation we suffered at the hands of hateful Muslim preachers who incite the worshiping crowds to burn our homes, kidnap our girls and suppress our freedom to practice our religion. We will never allow media misrepresentation to stop us from our mission.
I could be wrong,but I don't think so,but I am quite sure those who harassed him were NOT born-again Christians.
All glory to you guys! Let me give a little tips about the muslim thinking. In 1947 muslims managed to get India split into India and Pakistan. The Urdu language slogan then was 'hans ke liya hai Pakistan, lad ke lenge Hindustan'. The slogan means that we have taken Pakistan in frolic (laughinly) we will take Hindustan (India) through fight. For the last 60+ years they have been working on it. Unfortunately, our great nation (USA) has always sided with them against India. Now, the devil is trying to devour this great nation. We will need many millions of workers like you.I consider myself a humble soldier in this cause.
God bless America!
I am not interested in a debate and I find your way of reasoning very cheap:
"if it's not this, it must be that..." this reasoning works good for muslim theology but not for christianity. ever heard of dialectic? a ball can be small and round, ugly und heavy at the same time - it's not either/or.
You think we have solutions of every theological problem? - I don't think so. Where evil comes from is still a mystery, so don't come up with your emotions and the same lame argument of us humans being robots, if we don't have free will. As I explained before, without light you can't see everything, so if you haven't Christ, you have nothing. Ever heard of original sin?
Read Pauls letter to the ephesians, read Luther, Calvin and don't come up with arminian theology.
@ Apollos and Zang, I think as brothers it is time for us to drop this debate since this is not the purpose of this thread. Unfortunately, this all started because of Traeh's rather insulting and demeaning remarks against God's sovereignty in order to elevate man's creaturely free will. In spite of that I think we need to bring this debate to a close. If you guys are still interested in debating this issue then there are other forums where we can continue this debate.
Lord bless you both.
Sam, in this discussion you've considered it an "offense" and an "insult" against you and against God to think about free will and God, except along lines that you, as God's representative, peremptorily lay down.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Unfortunately, Sam seems to have a little bit of an anger problem and tendency to fly off the handle pretty easily. I love Jesus and Sam loves Jesus, so he is my brother, but if he were on the other side I don't think any of us would be quite as tolerant. He is frequently condescending and speaks with quite a bit of belligerence. He is clearly bring knowledgeable and is good at refuting the Islamic opponents. He just likes to call others on the carpet, insist he will destroy their puny arguments, and expose them before everyone for what they really are, which is clearly hypocrites in gross error. Clearly this man "has arrived" and is more than willing to announce his doctrinal certainty. I've only been a Christian a little less than 40 years, which is probably not as long as Sam. Funny though, the older I get the less I know, except for the main things. Someone much wiser said, "the main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things". Jesus is Lord. Plain and simple. Salvation only through Christ. Plain and simple. "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in my heart God has raised him from the dead by shalt be saved". Plain, and very simple. Other things sometimes are not as easily grasped or differences reconciled. Sometimes better to say, "I hear what you're saying, but I see it a little differently". Sam, a lot of people here feel differently, which does not immediately grant you the position of inerrancy in the matters of which you so clearly speak. Don't be offended when others disagree with you, as as hard as it is to believe, you probably are not "there" either. In transit, definitely! "There", not yet, dear brother.
Needless to say, I have seen the "sovereignty of God" drum being beaten by him quite a bit lately. I don't think anyone has ever said God is not sovereign, at least not in this thread, but I do think there is some pretty difficult to explain passages. Cut and dried, black-and-white, this or that, is rarely where the full truth is found, at least in areas "seen through a glass dimly" of which others of equal devotion disagree.
Starting off each of the shows with public prayer is noble, but it doesn't really accomplish anything that praying quietly before the show will not also accomplish. It's especially not fruitful when you bring out the sharp tongue and continual condescension. Let's see, I will probably be asked to document this and then I will be told I am a liar because I am running it cannot do this. My response to this would be, "get real man". Ask anyone else that sees what is going on and they will most likely suggest you turn down the aggression and subdue the testosterone surges. Ask the monitor of this blog, David, in private, as he is the only person whose opinion really matters regarding the activities that occur here. This is as it should be as he is the one who pays the bills and does the work.
Lest I be misunderstood, Sam really seems to know his stuff, he just needs to repackage his presentation and soften the delivery of his communiqués. People rarely convert when someone is swinging a sledgehammer at their face. Probably not the best of behavior to engage in whether with brother or nonbeliever.
Just my two cents, which can easily be refuted, I'm sure. "Blessed is the man who sits on the floor as he shall not have far to fall", said Leonard Ravenhill. May we all hit the pavement, put down the stones, come out of our glass houses, and quit telling other people what to do. David owns the site and can do as he wills. Everyone else, not so much.
Chill and get real, man.
sorry, but I can't understand some of the things you wrote... honest to God.
One, I don't understand what's contradictory about your ball example. and I'm not too sure what dialectic mean, even after looking up a dictionary.
Two, "so don't come up with your emotions and the same lame argument of us humans being robots, if we don't have free will."
I don understand how my comment is in any way considered 'emotional'; or 'cheap'.
I was merely stating what I know. If I am mistaken to say 'if there's no free will, then there's only predestination', then please, just correct me, and I'll learn.
Cause I don't know of any other alternative, hence my statement: "What's the alternative? I can only think of predestination."
three, "As I explained before, without light you can't see everything, so if you haven't Christ, you have nothing. Ever heard of original sin?"
I don't understand how any of this relates to what my comment said. Really, I don't.
I'm not trying to start a debate. Just clarifying to Apollos that I do not understand what he's talking about.
I'm very well aware no one shares the exact same concepts/understanding as I do, and I don't expect them to. I share my views/understanding, and only hope to be corrected rightly or that what I say helps another with his/her understanding.
My sincere apologies, if what I've said had caused harm.
For Muslims, the law is only what is written down in a book.
Jesus Christ said:
You will have all the law written on your heart.
Christianity has a cornerstone: sin and redemption.
And to believe is to constantly be cleansed by that realization. We need not raise the sword against anyone.
We are not responsible for the behavior of Muslims. Nor is their redemption in our hands.
Keep telling the truth about Christianity.
Dear brother Sam,
you are right, this is not the right place to discuss christian theology as long as we don't respond to a muslim misrepresentation of it. But it was necessary that you address Traeh's liberal opinion of God's power and souvreinity.
God bless you and continues to use you mightily. You are a gifted and strong debater.
If you know a good forum or paltalk room where this topic can be discussed further, let me know, I would be interested.
To the others who paticipated into the discussion, I wanted to say that nothing was said to be meant in an ofensive way, but defending the truth, even if it is done with love, can of course hurt others feelings.
I know many christians who can remain calm and speak gently, but I also had many discussions with rough brothers in christ and many of these discussions challanged my old opinions and made me dig deeper into the topic. Paul said that everything we do should be done in love, but as humans we will fail many times, but that is the great thing as Jesus said, he came to the sick and not to the healthy. The work our LORD started, HE will finish.
God bless us all, helps us not to look upon ourselfs but look only at the cross and to the empty tomb.
Christ is risen.
The peace of our God, the father, the son and the holy spirit be with you.
My brother Apollos, thank you for your kind words. If you join paltalk you can actually create your own room and have discussions with people concerning God's sovereignty and free will. So I encourage you to do it since it will be fun, challenging and at times quite upsetting.
Hey, this is what we Christian were treated in our country (I am living in an Islamic country)!
But this is America...wow can't imagine that.
My brotherly love advice to all Christian, please don't discuss Christian theology here...this blog was mean to discuss Islam...so stick to that.
My brother Sam,
you are most welcome.
Before opening a room at paltalk, I would like to spend time by studying the case for my points, cause I wouldn't like to misrepresent the biblical doctrine. I had an mail exchange lately with a muslim. As you can imagine, it unfortunatly was - as you mentioned - frustrating, and a loss of time. I had to deal with the old, same, lame arguments that already have been refuted by the churchfathers. answering-islam.org is the best site that exists for answers to muslim objections and your posts Sam are real dynamite, but they continue to misrepresent christianity, churchhistory to make their case. How poor is this religion if it must use these tactics? If islam really is that superior, if the Quran really is the most miracolous book that came into existens, well, why then be afraid of christian apologists and Quran scholars who are critiising it. If something is perfect you won't be able to find a weak point, so if islam is that mighty and untouchable, they should laugh about us chistians and the others, but that isn't the case.
The devil hates the truth and that is why he is roaring like a lion when confronted with it.
God bless you Sam, David, Nabeel, Pastor Joseph and every brother on this world that stands for the truth.
I might be at Arab Fest this weekend, hope to meet you guys!
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