Thursday, May 6, 2010

Quran 5:32, Nazam, and Neglecting Context

Nazam is a regular on our blog and an active proponent for Islam in the UK. I met Nazam this past summer in London; he's very congenial and I really like the guy.

All affability aside, he has struck a nerve that I simply cannot ignore. In the comment thread of a recent post, he refers to the would-be Times Square bomber and the man who initially pointed out the danger to the police. Nazam said this:
Just a little quote from the Quran, the holy book of the Muslims.

“…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).

Just think who gets the reward, Fahad, the allege bomber or Aliou Niasse? =)
What bothers me is Nazam has ripped 5:32 out of context, and being a Muslim apologist, he probably knows it full well. In fact, 5:32 is the most ripped-out-of-context verse of the Qur'an in the West. Muslims (and even news organizations) often refer to this verse in order to show that Islam teaches murder is wrong and saving lives is the prescribed action for all people.

But this is absolutely not what this verse says. In fact, it says almost the exact opposite: that Muslims can kill those who are their enemies! The only way you can conclude as Nazam has concluded is to ignore the verses that immediately follow 5:32, as well as to ignore parts of the verse itself.

Here is 5:32 in its context, with all words included (emphasis mine):
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Salient points:

1 - It explicitly states that this was a commandment to the Children of Israel, i.e. the Jews! This is not a commandment to all people, and it certainly should not be misused as if this is Allah's command to Muhammad's people.

2 - Even if this were a command to the Muslims, there's still an escape clause: "unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land." If someone is "spreading mischief", he can still be killed. Now let's think for a moment. The would-be Times Square bomber considers Americans to be spreading mischief in Palestine and around the world (practically all Muslims I know think this, even the ones who are American citizens). Accordingly, even if this verse were to apply to someone like Faisal Shahzad, he would still be justified in his slaughter.

As if this weren't obvious enough from the verse itself, the Qur'an further expounds this point in the very next verse. 5:33 says
The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.
This verse is referring to the Muslims, not the Jews anymore, as we can tell in the shift from past tense to present tense. And here, the punishment for mischief is clearly prescribed: execution, crucifixion, mutilation, or at the least, exile. This is the command given to the Muslims. Quite clearly, it does not teach what the Muslims proclaim it teaches; in fact, it teaches almost the exact opposite.

It is undeniably clear that, in order to make Islam seem peaceful, Nazam and many other Muslims rip this verse out of its context, take words out of the very verse itself, changing the entire message for something else. I wonder if they know they are guilty of Surah 5:13. In any case, we should not let ourselves (or anyone who might be interested) be deceived by the popular Muslim interpretation of these verses.


Odo said...

Hello Nazam, you said,

“We were all American. That was the point!”

No my brother that is not the point. The point is that anyone in the world would go alert the authorities if they saw a burning car in the middle of a populated city. I don't care if they are cannibals, anyone and everyone not only should, but it would be their duty to do so simply out of the fact that there is a burning car in the middle of a populated city!

I cannot believe a connection was made here, and it's even stranger to me that Surah 5:32 popped up.

For this reason was man created alone, to teach thee that whosever destroys a single soul of Israel [of Israel is absent in some texts], scripture imputes (guilt) to him as though he had Destroyed a Complete World; and whosever preserves a single soul of Israel, scripture ascribes (merit) to him as though he had Preserved a Complete World [since all mankind originated from one man]. – Babylonian Talmud, Mishnah Sanhedrin 37a

Check out the above verse which originated over 300 years prior to Islam in a man-made book, don't you find it a little strange that Muhammad is pulling stuff from manmade material?

Nazam, rethink fulfillment of the Law.

GreekAsianPanda said...

Again? A Muslim is quoting 5:32 again??? I really have to wonder how they get away with doing that so often.

And thanks for pointing out that passage from the Babylonian Talmud, Odo. I had been looking for that quote but couldn't find it.

Ilena said...

again muslims with their double standards.

Nazam said...

Thanks Nabeel, I honestly like you as well and only have good memories of our time together. It was cool to traveling back home on London transport.

I'll try to give my response later as it's quite overwhelming when you have serveral people all at once wanting to respond to you, that plus I have a life outside of the internet to live.

Sepher Shalom said...

For me, the really enlightening thing is not that this verse was taken out of context (I expect that by now), it is that it seems to be the only thing in the Quran Muslims can come up with as a response when terrorists kill.

Tafsir Al-Jalalayn: (5:32) Because of that, which Cain did, We decreed for the Children of Israel that whoever slays a soul for other than a soul, slain, or for, other than, corruption, committed, in the land, in the way of unbelief, fornication or waylaying and the like, it shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoever saves the life of one, by refraining from slaying, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind — Ibn ‘Abbās said [that the above is meant] in the sense of violating and protecting its [a soul’s] sanctity [respectively]. Our messengers have already come to them, that is, to the Children of Israel, with clear proofs, miracles, but after that many of them still commit excesses in the land, overstepping the bounds through disbelief, killing and the like.

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs: (5:32) (For that) because Cain wrongfully killed Abel (cause We decreed for the Children of Israel) in the Torah (that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter) i.e. premeditatedly (or corruption in the earth) or because of idolatry, (it shall be as if be had killed all mankind) Hell will be decreed for him for premeditatedly and wrongfully killing a human being, as though he killed all mankind, (and whoso saveth the life of one) whoever abstains from killing a person, (it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind) Paradise will be decreed for him for sparing one soul, as though he spared the lives of all mankind. (Our messengers came unto them) i.e. the Children of Israel (of old with clear proofs) with commands, prohibitions and signs, (but afterwards lo! many of them) the Children of Israel (became) after the messengers (prodigals in the earth) ascribing partners to Allah.

Tafsir Maududi: (5:32) [32] That was why We prescribed this for the children of Israel:53 "He who killed any person, unless it be a person guilty of manslaughter, or of spreading chaos in the land, should be looked upon as though he had slain all mankind, and he who saved one life should be regarded as though he had saved the lives of all mankind."54 But the majority of them went on committing excesses in the land even after Our Messengers came to them one after the other with clear directions.

David Wood said...

Hi Nazam,

Since Nabeel and I like you, we'll post your response as a blog post if you want.

minoria said...

The whole theme is 5:32-34:(by ARBERRY,a non-Muslim):

"Therefore We prescribed for the Children of Israel that whoso slays a soul not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land, shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoso gives life to a soul, shall be as if he has given life to mankind altogether. Our Messengers have already come to them with the clear signs; then many of them thereafter commit excesses in the earth.

This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement,
except for such as repent, before you have power over them. So know you that God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate."

What is "to fight against Allah and his prophet"?
A LITERAL fight?Or is what WE are doing,criticism of the Koran and Mohammed,also part of the fight against Islam?
If so then "to repent" means we have to give up our FREEDOM of SPEECH?I find the idea contra-natura.

Odo said...

Hello Greek Asian Panda,

You are most welcome, and in case you do not know, there is a little search widget on this site. If you type in 'Talmud' or anything else you want a quick reference to from the Answering Muslims team, it will bring up all of the blog posts relating to your inquiry.

Also, if the Talmudic sources used by Muhammad are of a special interest to you, there is a great book called Judaism in Islam: Biblical and Talmudic Backgrounds of the Koran and its Commentaries by Abraham I Katsh, which was actually recommended to me by a blogger from this site.

Ok, bye for now.

Joel Madden said...

It's such a pity that one person misinterpretes the verse taken from Quran and everyone else blindly accepts it. In verse 5:32 it is reffered to Muslims where it says (children of Israel) because at that time Muslims used to live in the land of Israel and the Jew religion did not even exist at that time. the verse followed by that 5:33 the ones who wage war against God and his apostles simply mean declaring war against the Muslims and therefore allowing Muslims to defend themselves and execute, crucify, cut the hands, exile and so on.

Julie K said...

Islam's Prophet Muhammad wasn't even born until the 7th Century or thereabouts.

Judaism, Christianity, then Islam in that order.FACT: The Bible was written 500 years before the Quaran.

Islam attempts to make itself look older in order to deny the Jews of their rightful land. They do this by prohibiting meaningful achaelogical digs in and around the Temple Mount. Islam cannot afford to have Israel's previous role on the Mount known for fear that public opinion would turn against them and they lose control of it.

bogere robert said...

How can you post deliberate untruths here....knowing that anyone with a simple and basic understanding of islam can debunk these lies?

For the record...Islam considers Adam to be the first muslim....not mohammed....Abel...Abraham...Jesus...Jacob and his children.. David...Moses...Noah....Solomon....John the Baptist...were all muslims...99.9% of the prophets of Islam are propbably jews....thats why only a stupid muslim can say he hates jews...when he.MUST believe in and love those (jewish) prophets....


If indeed muslims were commanded to kill jews or other "non-muslims" do you explain the fact that jews have existed side by side with muslims throughout Arabia or even in Iran....juxtaposed against the persecution of jews in Europe? In are not allowed even to sharpen a knife when the animal you are going to slaughter is watching.....such is the regard for life!!! How then can you say we are allowed to disregard "non muslim" life.....

Jhughes said...

About Quran:32,Jesus in us saves us. A person cannot save a person. Had that be possible a Savor would have never been needed making God out to be a blubbering idiot for sending Jesus who was himself with blood in him. The Quran is inspired by a really sneaky fellow. Allah is Satan. Satan is a bright colorful angel being exstremly evil. He should not be trusted. This is God's law. Romans 13:10 - Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
KJV Cambridge edition bible.
Romans 13:10.

Adam said...

For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth. (32)

This is what it says in the verse the real interpretation you deliberately changed the sentencing of the Aya the verse :-)
Sourat Al maeeda (5) verse 32

Qasim Rabbani said...

If people are not going to believe its because Allah has not guided them. So they will by their nature hate the truths of why we are here.

Adam said...

Salam all
I have one thing to say about this:

The Muslims as you're already know, do believe in a Prophet son of Mary and his name is Issa (Peace be upon him) for us Muslims Jesus is a Character who was invented.

If you go to the Christians in the middle east you will find the name of ALLAH in their Bibles and was used as it was used way before Islam hence the name of the father of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him )

Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd "Allāh" ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim.

Why ? Because the name of Allah existed and brought by the previous prophets i.e Ibrahim, Moses, Issa and of course Mohammed
Even pagans knew that Allah was his name.

2) Jesus Christ by some people they are initials of Julius Caesar (not a confirmed allegation)

3) Christ is Cristos in Greek which means "wipe" messih or Messiah why is he called Cristos ?

Because it was a Jewish cultural thing when their priests anoint a King they put some olive oil on his forehead and then he wipes it, that is also has been proven to be true.

Are you going to say the Jews anointed him ? No Because the Jews wanted NO prophet and they quickly recognized that Issa Ibnu Mariam was a prophet.

Would the almighty God come down to earth and let himself be crucified by his miserable creatures, or send his "son" to be tortured and so on...
Does that make any sense to you?
It doesn't to me sorry with all due respect.

And finally you say GOD what is God?
It is a title not a name Allah is his name just like your name is John, Paul or David.
What is the name of God in Christianity ?
English language did not exist 2 thousands years ago so when they talked about Allah they must have used his name don't you think?

I don't mean a Jewish as in the ones who believe in the Torah oh no, I mean the Jews who never believed in God to this day.

So I don't want any confusion about who the Jews are.

One last point:
You say that because Issa (Peace be upon him) was born without a father that means his father had to be Allah or God right ?

Okay then, so on one hand you are limiting the supreme power of almighty Allah, and secondly how come he created Adam without a father or a mother and he created Eve without a Mother doesn't that strike you as being great?
So we should all call Adam God then, no?
I leave you with this
Peace everybody

Adam said...

I don't think you are as impartial and unbiased as you claim to be.

1) When a verse that you recognise has as a very positive tone to it, you quickly try to show that its interpretation has a hidden agenda or a very negative meaning.

when another verse is taken completely out of context and appears to be a verse of hatred or discrimination or whatever it maybe, then you don't assume it is a misinterpretation, beside I am not even sure you won't censor these comments.

NIko said...

Adam, you have a completely misguided view on Christian beliefs and in future do not attack my beliefs ignorantly because our concept of God can not be matched by any other religion for God so loved the world that he gave his son up for us. I will be presumptuous and say the reason you know so little of Christian theology is because probably most of what you know about Christianity you have learnt from your Quran; and oh how much the Quran has to say about the people whom WORSHIP Jesus Christ.

Firstly, we do not say "...because Issa (Peace be upon him) was born without a father that means his father had to be Allah- you said that.
I mean the Quran does ask the rhetorical question how could Allah have a son when he has no wife in Surah 6:101 so I understand how easy you could be misinformed when Allah of the Quran the All - knower couldn't even understand our Theology.

The Father/Son analogy is used to show a relationship between God and Jesus but please do not think it is the same type of relationship that you as a son have to your Father - because it is not.

John Chapter 1 verse 1 says
In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god...

Do you understand the above?
Please re-read it as many times as you need.
A little further down to verse 14 and you have
"and the WORD was made FLESH and dwelt among US"

Let me reiterate.

Is God/Allah eternal? existing outside of time from always til forever?

Yes he his. Both the Quran and the Bible confirm that.

Is God/Allah ever without his word?

No Allah's word exists with him always.
Therefore his word is also eternal.

Do we have two eternals here? 2 gods? There is only one God the TRUE GOD

Now you know how Christians believe Jesus to be God.

It is because we believe that Jesus is the literal word of God made flesh, according to our THEOLOGY

Now if Allah had said clearly - Jesus is not my word come to the earth from heaven from eternity and made flesh to dwell among you different story instead he says - Jesus is only a word from Allah!

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Here we have God the Father stating he will send his word out into the world and it will not return to him empty handed.

and its just one of hundreds of prophecies - the prophet Isaiah says that the virgin will conceive and give birth and he shall be called GOD WITH US.

Prophet Mo was a sinner as mentioned in the Quran.. Jesus IS SINLESS

It will be Jesus that returns at the end of days according to both the Bible and the Quran, ask yourself WHY?

The Quran says he is the only person born that Satan could not touch, the bible shows us that JESUS has complete power over Satan/Iblis...

You say Christians are limiting God's power - you're the one saying that God can't take on human flesh.

When this is his promise to us, he promised our Salvation in Exodus the first book of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures that because Satan entered the world through Eve he to would enter the world through the seed of woman as our Saviour. Our god truly loves us.

And what is this crap that Jesus Christ is JC and that stands for Julius Caesar,

I speak a Slavic Tongue
Isus Hristos -Jesus Christ
Julij Tsesar-Julius Caesar - don't make any sense at all in my tongue...pathetic!!!!

The question you need to ask yourself is not if we should call Adam god but why after God declared a decree with all men and woman of Adam being born of both mother and father had Jesus come to us through a Virgin.. your Quran gives no explanation except miracle, though it was a miracle CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY gives you an explanation!
We do not worship a God that did not send his word to us. Jesus means GOD IS MY SALVATION.

Read a bible first, find out what Christians really think,

Glory be to the Father through his Word Jesus Christ, May the Holy Spirit of God Guide you to the Truth.

Abbass Hamzah said...

there is a reason the verse in question is revealed to the muslims. if we freeze the time it was revealed, we can conclude that the children of israel were cautioned in their time by the very verse and same was passed on to serve the same value to caution and or prevent muslims from being excessive as the children of israel were and or just being told outright to realize the value of each soul or all of the above. whatever the case may be, if Talmud is not a revelation from God, but Taurat was, the fact that this verse is missing from Taurah shows the corruption as Quran has stated about previous revelations and Quran by this verse shows signs of it being a muahimin [the criterion over the previous revelations].

the reality of the verse is that it serves a purpose, the very purpose it served the children of Israel when they were the muslims of their time, while the tyrannical Pharaoh, Philistine's Goliat, etc were the pagans [idolaters/disbelievers]. what is good is always in spite of the time. then God revealed in the Quran as He did in Psalm that the 'righetous servants shall inherit the earth', is there a dispute about it? why is the non muslim group not realizing that 'believers' are cautioned so that they are the first to obey and others may follow them in observing what is good? it happens that God cautioned against killing of innocent soul in Surah Furqan, too. God encouraged in another verse to not even seek revenge, even to receive blood money. but seek reward from Allah.

Grasshopper said...

Odo, hey, and how are you doing ? hope you doing great :) .i just wanted to reply to what you wrote and the verse you added (Babylonian Talmud, Mishnah Sanhedrin 37a), i just wanted to add something, something that most of the people tend to forget about, and that is the prophet Muhammad was illiterate. the second note i wanna add is, the way guran was written (grammatically), a professor in Arabic language will agree that guran is written in a way that illiterate person nor a human mind can do. and all the prophet's followers most of them were probably more educated than the prophet Muhammad. so why would they follow a guy that dont know how to write his own name, nor know how to read, you think people will follow an illiterate guy just because maybe he was a good looking guy ? i don't know maybe thousands of them followed him because of his looks who knows , but we all know that Arab scientist and a lot of the inventions were made by arab, and those arabs were Muslims, people that know how to use their minds, how an illiterate poor person like the prophet lead all those people if he was actually stealing from others? scientist were following the prophet as well. i would really like to encourage people to read the guran in arabic because words have only one meaning not like other translations.

Adam said...

Hi brother, I just wanted to correct one thing, and that is probably why some people keep away from Islam.

Islam came down in Arabic true, but not all inventions were made by "Arabs" no way, they were made by "Muslims" so please be very careful not to mix the two, Islam was not destined to Arabs it was sent to mankind all mankind.

It is not exclusively for the Arabs, so we need to be extremely careful not to hold Islam as an "Arab's religion"

As a matter of a fact most of the scientists and scholars were not Arabs at all.
From Persia to north Africa, to China to south Asia, to India and parts of Europe so Islam is not a religion for the Arabs so please try and use the correct terminology when speaking about Islam and the Quran.

However I agree with most of what you said :-)
Peace bro.

Danny said...

HI Grasshopper, first of all Muhammad’s illiteracy is irrelevant to the question of the existence of the Qur’an. Muhammad did not write the Qur’an; he recited it. Others wrote down what Muhammad recited, as the Qur’an was complied over several years. The Qur’an would have been written whether Muhammad could or could not read and write, so the argument is irrelevant. plus he hadith includes numerous accounts of Muhammad writing.

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Once the Prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Apostle" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet… (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 65)

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88)

Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:
Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me." Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, ""It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114)

so in any way your statement is wrong

jimmythe1 said...

first let me say that my comments are not aimed to anger the people who have posted here, though they fly in the face of ALL these peoples beliefs.
I wonder how many translations and interpretations have been quoted through the years from all these so called religious books, which in effect were the dominant media of these ages and countries, handed down through generations of people in control of the masses ie; Priests, Rabbi's,Imams, and various other Holy Men ( no women? ), or privileged few.
Surely if we all searched our hearts we would see that to murder, especially in the name of some non existent ( in my mind and the mind of many others ) God, Prophet, Divinity etc.... is wrong, and goes against the concepts of any and all civilized people?

Why can't we live and let live, allowing each to worship the Deity the choose?
just saying.....

sam barr said...

Muhammad could not write or read
Hundreds of other Hadiths confirm that he could not read or write but more importantly I don't believe a so called Hadith over what is written in the Quran.
The Surat 96 the very first verse. Read.

Now as for Aisha we have refuted this one time and time again.
Aisha was never 6 or 9 years old.
We can prove this in anyway you like.
So stop spreading false accusations

Jhughes said...

Danny: MUhammad possessed by the Devil and Satan when he recited the Quran. I am not saying this out I of hate or to be mean. It is the truth. I an not being froward or unfriendly. I am stating a fact.

Jhughes said...

Danny: MUhammad possessed by the Devil and Satan when he recited the Quran. I am not saying this out of hate or to be mean. It is the truth. I an not being froward or unfriendly. I am stating a fact.

sam barr said...

1) You are saying it out of hatred or ignorance
2) How do you know that for a fact, where did you get this fact from?
3) Muhammad was protected by His lord he cannot be possessed by the devil, secondly this allegation has been conclusively refuted, many times over.

sam barr said...

As a non muslim myself, I came across this quote, which I suspect is deliberately taken out of context, as I have been witnessing some so called Christians.

Here is 5:32 in its context, with all words included (emphasis mine):

On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

You highlighted this sentence to base your fallacious argument on.
You put this in bold:
"unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land"

1) To show the hypocrisy and the double standard of some evangelists and some so called missionaries let's break it down:
What happens in the west mostly in the United states when someone is guilty of murder ? Do they set him / her free ? Either the gas chamber, injection, electric chair, hanging and so on..
So why would it be different for a Muslim to apply the same rule, when a murder is committed with premeditation?

Mischief in the land, that ruins everybody's life, that destroys society, high treason, and so on, what do they do to them in the West ? A tap on the shoulder, well done ?
Isn't that amazing that most of these so called Christian missionaries have "Jewish names" lol I find it rather amazing!
David Wood, you are known even among the Christian community to be a fake, and a deceiver along with your friend Sam Shamoun. Because I believe you belong to the same sect and work on behalf of the Zionists and not defending Christianity.

You probably not going to approve this comment, or you might approve it and show you are impartial and then make comments either way it won't make much difference to the content.
You always take arguments and make your own interpretations by twisting the meanings.
For instance when it suits you, you take that one particular verse without mentioning the verses before and after. And when it suits you, you show the verses that you think you can twist.
First sort out your own ambiguity about 3 in 1 and 1 in 3 philosophy.
So now, even if the scriptures change according to different eras and situations one law for a particular time and another law for another time, does that mean God changes as well ?
The OT never mentioned three Gods, early Christians never worshipped three Gods, until the fourth century, however we can trace the trinity back to the pagan religions of the ancient times, like the Romans etc..

The trinity was added around the 5th century by the Roman emperor Constantine:

The first Roman emperor to claim conversion to Christianity, [notes 4] Constantine played an influential role in the proclamation of the Edict of Milan in 313, which decreed tolerance for Christianity in the empire. He called the First Council of Nicaea in 325, at which the Nicene Creed was professed by Christians.

This is an intellectual dishonesty, you're a deceiver David

As an ex Christian I mean no disrespect to the Christian community, but we were lied to and deceived by those who always hated God and his Prophets.

Jhughes said...

MUhammad recited words that were not his own. That is a fact. I have no hatred of the human kind. I am not deceitful. I am not froward or unfriendly. Mentalities that are hatful with human hate will be that way. God is my teacher. What I say is true. Those that don't want to see what Hell as it really is will not reject me. The Face of God in his glory is what Devils fear. It is the fires of hell to them. I will say what no religon has ever spoken of. Muhammad's Lord refused to say, fear not. The Fallen angel Lucifer will not say, fear not. What other being could it have been that Muhammad faced? There is no other being than what I said. It is logic and reason, not hate. That being wants us to fear him. Muslims are not obeying who trey think for a long time. Be wise getting out of that belief system. ISIS needs to get out of it too.

Danny said...

You are right Jhughes, there is evidence in text and witnesses that Muhammad was possessed, even Muslims claim this. In the Bible christian are warned for false Prophets, I hope Muslims see that their Religion is lead by evil.

And to you Sam Barr, 5:32 speaks of Mischief, or fasād, meaning: fasād is an Islamic concept which means spreading mischief in a Muslim land,[1] moral corruption against God,[2] and any form of expression or activity by non-Muslims or apostates of Islam that creates disorder in the Muslim community. So basically by doing anything against Islam or not following the Quran could mean be punished by be killed or crucified or hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or be exiled from the land.

How can you say that this is the same western countries act? lol

And about the Trinity there are versus that name the Trinity. And even if it didn't it doesn't prove nothing

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].

To God’s elect...who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].

Im pretty sure you were never a christian, maybe by saying you are but not by hearth.

there is only on true God! Bless you all and may the truth find you

Jhughes said...

I left out one word. "Was":. Danny: MUhammad was possessed by the Devil and Satan when he recited the Quran. I am not saying this out of hate or to be mean. It is the truth. I am not being froward or unfriendly. I am stating a fact. Satan is a colorful gem decked being covered in gold. That being will impersonate unfallen heavenly beings. That being is a fear giver. That is why that being did not say fear not. ISIS obeys the Devil too. That is a deadly being to obey. Muslims by name obey that being.

sam barr said...

"MUhammad recited words that were not his own. That is a fact. I have no hatred of the human kind"

Who said the words are his ? Of course they're not his words.
First of all there is no such thing as fallen angels it's made up thing by lucifer the devil to fool his followers to think that some kind of injustice was done to him bla bla.
Anyway to cut the story short, The devil is a Jinn not a angel, Angels don't have free will, like us humans or the Jinns they obey God period, they don't think for themselves, they are there to do as they're told by their maker.
Ibliss the devil is no fallen angel he always been a Jinn.
Some were created from "light" noor, others were created from smokeless fire, and we are made from clay.
So when you say Muhammad spoke to Ibliss or Satan, he spoke to Gibril (Gabriel), now you have avoided my initial question, how do you know that Muhammad's words are Satan's ?
Your answer is based on assumption, nothing else, you are assuming, and there is nothing logical about your answer, because you have dismissed the existence of other beings.
How can you make such a blunt statement ?
Why does the Quran then curses Satan in almost every chapter, why do Muslims lapidate (stone) satan as their ritual when they make hadj, why do they stone him then ?
suggesting that ISIS aka Daesh are muslims do you?
1) They have been killing nothing but muslims
2) Their injured mercenaries are taken to Tel aviv hospitals to be treated for their injuries, they never ever attacked or even attempted to attack Israel.
3) Muhammad spoke about them, and warned the Muslims about these guys.
4) They are funded by the CIA and the Mossad, via the Saudis.
5) Their leader the so called Al Baghdadi is a mossad agent (operative), his name is Shimon Eliot, am I wrong ?
6) Why does he meet up regularly with Senator Mccain and Satanyahu ?
7) Why does NetanYahu visit the ISIS (mercenaries) so called fighters ?
8) If that were truly Islam you will have 1.6 billion terrorists on your hands do you honest believe the might of the USA and Isarael could stop 1.8 billion people around the world if that were true ?
9) I think most of these false accusations are baseless, unfair, unjust, and hateful.
10) All of these false-flags have nothing to do with Islam or the Muslims, they have been using false-flags for decades, Israel and its proxies are 100% behind 99% of terrorists attacks in the world including the 9/11, 7/7 Bombing, the Madrid, the Boston and so on.
The same woman was seen on every single terrorist attack. (actress)
You people calling yourselves enlightened but the status Quo suits your own delusion and feeds your inner hatred and ignorance. (I am not insulting you, don't take it the wrong way) but sometimes the truth has to be told no matter what.

Truth is like rain it doesn't care who gets wet.


David Barkin said...

In Islam the Bible is the holy word of God that was twisted by later Jews and Christians. So when he writes the "children of Israel" he is referring to those who follow Islam. As far as Mohammad was concerned, Muslims are the true followers of Moese and Jesus. He spoke of himself as the Third Prophet of Islam. This is why Islam is the only Abrahamic Religion which acknowledges that devout Jews and Christians can make it to Heaven.

Sura 3: 109-111
Yet all are not alike: Among the people of the Book is an upright folk, who recite the signs of God in the night-season, and adore:

They believe in God and in the latter day, and enjoin justice, and forbid evil, and speed on in good works. These are of the righteous.

Sura 3: 198-199
Among the people of the Book are those who believe in God, and in what He hath sent down to you, and in what He hath sent down to them, humbling themselves before God. They barter not the signs of God for a mean price.

Jhughes said...

Danny:I wish so too. Quran followers are in a bloody happy dance toward eternal ashes needing to wake up. God's light will turn them into the lake of fire on Judgment day if they don't change.

Jhughes said...

The spirit of God in the person sees God's spirit wherever it is. The twister is you even as the liar in the cave with Muhammad faking an unfallen angel. An unfallen angel would have said fear not. A being like that teaches people to be truthful? The teachings of Jesus are not in the Quran. How then are Muslims obeying Jesus?> There are no teachings in a name.

sam barr said...

Danny :
You are right Jhughes, there is evidence in text and witnesses that Muhammad was possessed, even Muslims claim this. In the Bible christian are warned for false Prophets, I hope Muslims see that their Religion is lead by evil.
What text ?
Which witnesses ?
Whoever claims this then he is not a muslim, how can they tell if he is possessed how do they know where is this so called evidence ?
I hope that Christians can see that their religion is lead by evil too.
How many versions of the Bible are there ?
How many versions of the Quran do you know of ?

You haven't answered any of my questions you skipped them and came back to the same unfounded false claims and accusations (remember I am an impartial observer)

Again the intellectual dishonesty: Danny

Read it again: 5:32

Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!.[] (32)

Yes mischief in the land, "Fassad" or "Al fassad" all major sins he doesn't need to go in to details, anything that isn't morally acceptable.

The hand chopping was only used twice in 700 years it is used as a deterrent, and they don't just chop hands, (the fake Jews and Christians) the Koran speaks about those who call themselves Jews and Christians but deep down they are the true enemies of God.
The Quran doesn't condemn the true Christians and the true followers of the Torah.

If these people call themselves "Christians, and Jews" it's for you to identify the fake ones.
You take verses from the Koran and twist them and make your own interpretation, now let's examine this verse:

How can you even say these are the words of Satan ?
and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind
Satan expects human sacrifices why would he put something like this to warn people and to make sure that nobody would kill ?
The ones who cause mischief in the land:

The recompense of those who wage war against Allâh and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter. (33)

Here the Koran citing all different kinds of punishments that those who cause mischief:
Mischief is:
Those who create wars for personal gains
Those who starve populations
Those who kill innocent people
Those who steal from people (like the bankers, politicians, owner of the corporations)
Those waging wars out of greed and power hungry vermin.
Those who rape women, kill innocent children
Do you really want me to list all the kinds of mischiefs that can destroy humanity and societies.
So I take it you like paying all of these taxes, and your money is taken away, by using statutory laws, so I take it you like being the elite's slave.
I guess you enjoy when they come and take away your land under your feet take away everything you've ever worked for, I take it you will be kind and generous won't you?

What gets me with you people, is you can clearly read in those passages what he is talking about, and the verse starts "Children of Israel" did he say Oh Muslims ?
He is talking about what happened before the advent of Islam.

sam barr said...

David Barkin:

Yes indeed:

Sura 3: 198-199
Among the people of the Book are those who believe in God, and in what He hath sent down to you, and in what He hath sent down to them, humbling themselves before God. They barter not the signs of God for a mean price.

The Koran when I read I find that in many passages he praises the devout Christians and Jews. But the Koran also wants to make a clear distinction between the two groups the real believers and the hypocrites the hypocrites that includes the so called Muslims those who call themselves "Muslims" but deep down they are nothing but the servants of Satan.
Which led me to believe that most of these people bashing Islam and the Koran are usually the fake Jews and the fake Christians, aided by the Crypto-Zionists like the Saudis, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and so on..(Royal families) they present themselves as Muslims but they are not.

Jhughes said...

I don’t care how few times hand chopping was used. It is satanic to be used at all having the writing to allow it. It is the power of suggestion. The Quran sounds like it doesn’t not allow for condeming making it easy for people to do just that when a person says the word, guilty. The Quran is slight of word making people to think one way when the mind behind the Quran is thinking in the other way. How can I say they are Satan’s words? Had I see Jesus I would not say they are Satan’s words. The being speaking in the Quran is observing whatever not creating whatever. The being is a boaster. God is not a boaster. The being in the Quran is trying to impress sinful people with the spiting of the moon thing. God would not do that. The being Muhammad saw did not say fear not. An angelic angel would not neglect to say that. One thing after another points to Lucifer who is Satan not God. Read it carefully. I see Satan as he is hiding in darkness. That being lies about Hell too. Wicked are burned up in God’s glory. Violent lying wicked people who have no self-control are turned into the lake of fire. That is the end of them body and soul. “and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind” That is paraphrased from the Talmud. It goes back to the being Muhammad saw that refused to say fear not. The whole Quran is literally piss and shit from a fallen angel.

Nazam said...

Surah 5:32 teaches that this principle was revealed to the Jews but the principle of taking someone's life as being equivalent to the murder of humanity still remains the same as it's a universal principle.

When the Old Testament says, thou shall not murder, it's still a universal principle even though this was first said to the Israelites.

Also, our religion remains the same as previous Abrahamic faiths except where the Quran or the mutawatir Sunnah abrogated them and no where does the Quran says that this principle has now been abrogated, not even in the next verse (v.33) because it says those that have already waged war and are spreading corruption in the land.

sam barr said...

"I don’t care how few times hand chopping was used"
If you're doing the cherry picking, left when it suits you, right when it suits you.

You don't know what satanic means, you have been living in a world predominantly satanic rulings,and you don't even know it.
Satanic when people wage wars and kill innocent people on using false pretext
Satanic when bankers kill millions every year around the world by way of famine
Satanic when big pharma kill millions by poisoning them with chemical shit
Satanic when injustice overwhelms justice, when the unlawful becomes lawful
Satanic when the deliberate dumbing down of people around the world.
Satanic when corporations erodes the civil rights and liberties using their powerful lobbies to get their way.
Satanic when idiots worship satan without knowing.
Satanic when projects are on the move to reduce world population by 3 quarters.
Satanic when millions are homeless and live on the streets.
So you don't know what is satanic.

In Islamic tradition, the state has to provide for people and the person or persons who steal after that, with evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt, "Might" get their hand chopped, used as a deterrent.
But of course you're too kind and humane, therefore you sit on your pedestal and preach moral values, where did you get these moral values, I guess you were born with them?
You're speaking zealously without any rational disposition. your only goal here and aim is to slander, smear and tarnish Islam, Arabs anything that is linked to Islam.

The Old Testaments says but what people do is another thing.
Why is then prisons in the western world are full of serial killers and murderers ?
Why are there hundreds on death row every year ?
Sunnah is the Quran the real Sunnah the Sunnah is the walking Quran ;)
If you had any knowledge on Islamic affairs, and nothing has been abrogated I mean nothing, if you truly take the time to read the Quran as I did, you need a lot of time, you will see and you will certainly find NO contradiction whatsoever.
And nothing has been abrogated, some verses applied to a particular time and situations and others applied to another time and situations.

This what was invented by the anti-Islamic movement that was refuted as many times as I care to remember, I keep repeating to you, Islam is and never was the enemy.
The real enemies are those siring hatred, division, by first spreading lies because they hate to see people live in harmony and respect each other, and you're the tool they use to get what they want or hope to get.
Suddenly you're an expert and making your own interpretations of the Quran as blatantly as you have been doing ?

You haven't got a clue what Islam is do you ?
The being which being, are you referring to Gabriel ? If Gabriel is satan then you're really of your rocker and you are drunk with hatred. Theologically speaking, Gabriel is an Angel without a will, he is the link between God and humans.
I am sorry to say you talk a load of nonsense. Absolute drivel you can't even tell figs from apples.
You quoted the OT that one line of the 10 commandments but you forgot to mention the stoning for adultery did you, very conveniently you skipped that part ?
Hypocrisy as usual and double standard.
I am through talking to wall.

sam barr said...

We have explained to you, you cannot just chop hands, there is a whole judicial system, and procedures, witnesses, if the thief isn't hungry or isn't poor, or isn't desperate, or hasn't stolen from poor people, and so on.. there is a whole set of conditions and it only happened in 700 years you don't even seem to realise how the world was back then, nobody is saying we are going to apply it today.
Are we going to stone people to death today because it's in the Bible?

If you compare the Koran to how the world was back then you will see it's very tolerant and very forgiving in comparison with the Bible, nowadays the world has changed, go and hold up a bank with a knife without taking any money and see what would happen to you, yeah ?
Or try and hold up any other big corporation, if you're lucky didn't get shot like a dog, you will get 25 years in prison, regardless whether you're in need or to help some other poor people.

Jhughes said...

All that is in the Quran is tainted with an abominable being who has a perverted tongue seeking to defile heats. The blasphemer of all blasphemers has his words in the Quran. Trust in it trust is a book of wizardry and magic that has slight of word to fool the mind into thinking the opposite to what is written. There is nothing good in that being. That being took what was in the Talmud bending it to say what it says. Jesus is he that saves. Will Allah Say that? Not at all. Allah wants nothing to do with Jesus accepting a two dimensional name only as an ornament to look good. It does not matter whether a text stays the same or not. It is the mind that is behind the words. The body is corrupt seeing God as fire not being changed. God has to be in us. Satan is the one who wants people to see God outside of them pointing up looking godly not being godly. Devils point up too. Allah is the being teaching Muslims to point upward.

sam barr said...

You obviously like a train on one track mind, you don't read anyone you come out like mad bull talking nothing but a load of drivel and rubbish.
Continue the debate by yourself talking to you is total waste of time.