Saturday, April 17, 2010

Yemeni Child Brides, Aisha, and Qur'an 65:4

I'd like to welcome our friend Yahya Snow to the "Answering Muslims School of Qur'anic Instruction."



Western Muslims are typically quite embarrassed by the fact that Muhammad had sex with a nine-year-old girl, and Muslim apologists are doing everything in their power to rewrite history in order to rescue their prophet from criticism. But are they willing to rewrite the Qur'an as well?

According to Surah 2:228, if a Muslim man wants to divorce his wife, he should wait until she has gone through three monthly cycles (i.e. three periods). But the question later arose: What are men who want a divorce supposed to do when their wives, for whatever reason, do not have monthly cycles? The Qur'an answers this question in Surah 65:4, where it gives divorce rules for (1) women who do not have monthly cycles because they are too old, (2) girls who do not have monthly cycles because they are too young, and (3) women and girls who do not have monthly cycles because they are pregnant. The verse declares that, if Muslim men want to divorce girls who haven't yet reached puberty, they must wait three months (after having sex with them).

Here are some translations of Surah 65:4.

Qur'an 65:4 (Shakir)--And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

Qur'an 65:4 (Arberry)--As for your women who have despaired of further menstruating, if you are in doubt, their period shall be three months; and those who have not menstruated as yet. And those who are with child, their term is when they bring forth their burden. Whoso fears God, God will appoint for him, of His command, easiness.

Qur'an 65:4 (Yusuf Ali)--Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

Qur'an 65:4 (Hilali-Khan)--And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

Qur'an 65:4 (Sher Ali)--And if you are in doubt as to the prescribed period for such of your women as have despaired of monthly courses, then know that the prescribed period for them is three months, and also for such as do not have their monthly courses yet. And as for those who are with child, their period shall be until they are delivered of their burden. And whoso fears ALLAH, HE will provide facilities for him in his affair.

Qur'an 65:4 (Rodwell)--As to such of your wives as have no hope of the recurrence of their times, if ye have doubts in regard to them, then reckon three months, and let the same be the term of those who have not yet had them. And as to those who are with child, their period shall be until they are delivered of their burden. God will make His command easy to him who feareth Him.

Here are three classic Muslim commentaries on 65:4.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 65:4)—Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn (on Qur’an 65:4)—And [as for] those of your women who (read allà'ï or allà'i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas (on Qur’an 65:4)—(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: "O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?" (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

For Muslims who want to say that this verse could refer to divorcing prepubescent girls whose husbands haven't had sex with them, the Qur'an refutes this claim. Surah 33:49 says that there is no waiting period if a man has not had sex with his bride.

Qur'an 33:49--O ye who believe! When ye marry believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of 'Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.

Hence, the Qur'an says that there is no waiting period if a man hasn't had sex with his bride, and the Qur'an prescribes a waiting period for men who want to divorce their prepubescent child-brides. This presupposes that the men have had sex with them, which means that the Qur'an allows sex with prepubescent girls. This shouldn't be surprising, since Muhammad himself had sex with a girl who hadn't reached puberty.

37 comments:

hugh watt said...

So Yahya, there it is. The refs' have been given for you to check.
A Muslim woman once told me Aisha, though she 6yrs old when Muhammad married her," had the mind of a 60yr old"! Is playing with dolls something 60yr old Muslim women do Yahya? Or perhaps like other Muslims she was embarrassed by what Muhammad practised!

The Fat Man said...

Yahya Snow in a previous post appealed to The Reliance on the Traveler to prove that Islam does not allow sex with pre pubesent girls. I dont think he has even read this book.

We read in Book N section 9.0 that the Ida is for " O: Meaning the period in which a woman waits (N: before she may remarry) to verify that she is not pregnant, or out of mourning for her deceased husband.)"

We then read in Section 9.1 that

"n9.1 There is no waiting period for a woman divorced before having had sexual intercourse with her
Husband."

So we can see that the waiting period is to make sure the woman is not pregnent, and two that there is no waiting period if you had not had sexual intercorse with her.

And finally in section 9.2 we read.

n9.2 A waiting period is obligatory for a woman divorced after intercourse, whether the husband and
wife are prepubescent, have reached puberty, or one has and the other has not.

That the waiting period is OBLIGATORY for a woman after intercorse. Doesn't matter if the girl has reached puberty or not.

Simon said...

wow i just had a headache reading fat mans comment. so many rules and rituals in islam. how much more confusing can it get? open ye eyes oh u muslims and smell wut Jesus is cooking for ya.

to yahya

sorry if my comments were a bit harsh towards ur post which i dont remember. i believe we all can get a little carried away. but u have now fully gave urself to the devil. i truly believe 10 years ago when u converted to islam was ur final turning point and i really hope that ur eyes will open during the tribulation. God the christ save ur soul brother. and remember Jesus died for u as well so that u will be saved before its too late.

Lupus el Lobo said...

In islam a girl has reached puberty if one of four criteria are met:

1. Menses
2. Realease of white fluid
3. Pubic hair
4. Reached the age of fifteen

Why have a waiting period if the girl can't get pregnant?
The reason is that a girl who meet criteria 2-4 can get pregnant although she has no menses at the time of divorce.
How do you define pre-puberty? Is it before the onset of puberty or is it before the menses, or before the completion of puberty?

One more thing stop being dishonest. What happens in yemen has nothing to do with islam, since you are not allowed to physically harm your wife when having sex.

Moreover, scholars even in saudi see no basis for analogy between todays society and girls living hundreds of years ago. In other words these criteria are not applicable to todays girls, for instance al-Obaikan a prominent islamic scholar and advisor to the Saudi king wants to set the minimum age at 18 years.

I think these scholars are more knowledgable about islam than Mr. Wood and the other right-wing evangelicals on this site.
You use a classical us vs them strategy to villify muslims. Islam is not a monolithic religion.

What are the criteria for marriage according to the Bible?
In light of your outcry over this issue your holy book must be really clear about when a girl can get married.
Maybe you judge Islam according to modern values. If so why are you so selective? Please be more consistent and apply modern values to the Bible. Wait a minute that has already been done. You remember the enlightenement. That's why western states are secular and why the number of practicing christians has decreased.

hugh watt said...

MESSAGE FROM A SCEPTIC.

His time to leave it came so soon,
He left no son to fill his room.
With not one verse in the Quran,
His sheep do not know where he's gone!

He lived a life that served him well,
But well right now? Muslims can't tell.
Much things he taught they do deny,
We keep on asking, Why? Why? Why?

Do i detect embarrassment,
When to the world those writing's went?
The prophet of Arabia,
How could he be your savior?

His outward form of cleanliness,
To us it seems so meaningless.
He fought much battles, gained much hoard,
And put so many to the sword.

To those who lust it seems so nice,
He promised more in Paradise!
Now when your time draws near to leave,
You still so sure what you believe?

This may sound like a fairy tale,
But one day soon your life will fail.
To follow him i'm not content,
Until i know which way he went!

Lupus el Lobo said...

Watt wrote:

You still so sure what you believe?


Lupus replied:

Yes!

Yahya Snow said...

Fatman...
With all due respect, I own and study the book in question...so please be a little appreciative.

Hugh, Erm I have responded to Wood's claims...I show evidence she is not playing with dolls whilst married to Moahammed (p)

@Simon...Apology accpeted my friend. tahnks for apologizing....it takes a big man to do so. Thanks
I am not a Christian because Islam makes more sense than Christianity in my view.
AND I dont believe I have given myself to the devil

Regarding the David Wood's/ Pastor Joseph's ideo:

My colleagues have already responded to this.
I have an article on my blog explaing 65:4. Please do view.

PS...This video has been responded to. Look to my YouTube in a few hours time or one ofmy colleagues YouTube channel.

By the way...by no stretch of the imagination did ibn KATHIR agree with David Wood's view. Go back and read Kathir, 2jalals and Abbas for yourselves.

If I am afforded of the opportunity of linking to a response inthis comment section i will...please do approve of the link as it is an audio response

If not check on my blog page (or YT page) for an update

Thanks
Peace and Love
God bless all

Yahya Snow said...

The response is hosted on myblognow and is also on this Muslim Youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVvywa84tt0

The Fat Man said...

Lupus El Lobo (aka diseased Wolf or Rabid Dog) said...

" In islam a girl has reached puberty if one of four criteria are met:

1. Menses
2. Realease of white fluid
3. Pubic hair
4. Reached the age of fifteen"

Question: WHERE?

Show us a Haddeeth where it says that, show us in the Quran where it says that,show us the religious ruling where it says that. You Muslims can not even go to the bathroom with out a FATWA.

David Wood has provided, Quran and multiple hadeeths on child bride marriages and sex with pre pubescent girls. I have provided evidence from a book of rules on how Muslims are to live a book on Islamic Jurisprudence, that not only can you marry a child but you can have sex with pre pubescent child brides.

So even if you can find something to back up your claim it still does not change the fact that puberty has nothing to do with marriage and sex with children in Islam.

The Fat Man said...

Yahya Snow said...
Fatman...
With all due respect, I own and study the book in question...so please be a little appreciative.

Sir I find this hard to believe because you are making claims that are contrary to what the book says on Marriage Child Brides and sex with prepubesent wives. Respond to the quotes from the book, I have given you the reference so you can look it up.

Oh since you have this book as you said and have read it as you say then you better becarefull in what you say becasue you could be considered a apostate under Islam for as it says in Book 0 8.7 on ACTS THAT ENTAIL LEAVING ISLAM

"(14) to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus of Muslims (ijma`, def:
b7) is part of Islam, when it is well known as such, like the prayer (salat) or even one rak'a from one of the five obligatory prayers, if there is no excuse (def: u2.4);

and...

(7) to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus (def: b7) belongs to it,
or to add a verse that does belong to it;

And just so you know in Book O section 1.2 subtitled "o1.2 The following are not subject to retaliation:"

We read "(3) a Jewish or Christian subject of the Islamic state for killing an apostate from Islam (O: because a subject of the state is under its protection, while killing an apostate from Islam is without consequences);"

And "(4) a father or mother (or their fathers of mothers) fir killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring;
(5) nor is retaliation permissible to a descendant for (A: his ancestor's) killing someone whose death would otherwise entitle the descendant to retaliate, such as when his father kills his mother."

So Non Muslims can kill apostate Muslims under sharia law with out threat of Consequences.

The Fat Man said...

Anyone else having a problem finding the link to the live broadcast since ABN Girlyfied there website? :)

minoria said...

In the program yesterday Friday at 2:30pm David said a good argument.That the sira literature that indicate an older age for Aisha is not that reliable because the sira often gives conflicting dates for the same event.Think about.
But:
1.We have several clear statements:marriage of Aisha at 6/7 and consummation at 9.

2.Statements that say Aisha was 18 when Mohammed died.
Those 2 cases are more reliable using the HISTORICAL METHOD.

ben malik said...

I can't stand this wicked lying Muslims. They utterly disgust me. Yahya says Aisha was not playing with olls when married to Muhammad. Let us see what the hadiths say.


'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, AND HE WAS TAKEN TO HIS HOUSE AS A BRIDE WHEN SHE WAS NINE, AND HER DOLLS WERE WITH HER; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

Shamoun was right about this lying troll. He is a clown and is repulsive to any moral and intelligent person. Sorry for being so blunt but I cant help it when I see Muslims lie through their teeth to deny that Muhammad married and had sex with a minor. They's do anything to defend this son of satan.

Fernando said...

@ Lupus and Yahya...

your own words cry out lound whate your religious made off you:

"pathological lyier; mentally handicaped; perverse disgusted"...

how can you live withe islam?

how perverse can someone be to say thate «if one of four criteria are met»?... man: this is utterly sick...

you asked: «What are the criteria for marriage according to the Bible?»... habe you not read the Genesis? «This is why a man (ish) leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife (isha), and they become one flesh»... "isha" and "isha" are words to adult women and men and not pre-adult people... and everyone knows whate are adult people in all off its dimienmsions: biological, psychological and spiritual... not one off these 3 dimensions, butt all off them...

the Noble and Holy Bible is not an IKEA "do yourself" as I told you as the muslims look eagerly to find whate to do in the qur'an and in other islamic rules off proceudure: the Holy and Noble Bible wants to educate people to think for themselfs and to make decisions responsabely... the "sit, sit, BoBo... good dog" its only ok for sub-human sistems off believing...

No, my dear friend: the Christian religion did never aplied secular values into the interpretation off the Noble and Holy Bible: it applyied the scientifical tools thate enlightement provided to interprette the Holy and Noble Bible thate allowed Christinas to find the original meaning and intentions off its authores thate gabe its readers, as God inspired them in His image, an creative and responsable need to engage in an interpretation process... thats the difference withe islam: you are petriffied in a mentality off a person withe paedophilical, homicidal, suicidal, homosexual (did not muhammad like to likke other men's tobgues?), and so on inclination?

please Lupus: follow the "noble" example off your false prophet: be a person withe paedophilical, homicidal, suicidal, homosexual and so on inclinations...

Yahya Snow said...

Ben Malik..

Rather than insulting me just view the explanationto thathadith you bring forward. the explanation is on my blog

As for Shamoun insulting me...well it is nothing new...it does not reflect well on him...he seems to do it whenever somebody disagrees with him. He does it to Jibreelk, Grand etc etc

view the vid (and article) refuting his idea on the angel of the Lord

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me”. (Matthew 5:11)


You should not copy him as it poor taste...just ignore his insults

Believers in Jesus,like myself, are not surprised to see/hear ppl insulting us (see matt 5:11)

Peace
God bless

The Fat Man said...

Yahya Snow
So respond to what I posted from the Reliance on the Travelor.

Saying you responded is not the same as actually responding.

ben malik said...

Yahya, I don't need to your explaining away the clear statement of the hadith. This what makes you so repulsive that you would try to defend what a 54 year old impotent son of satan did to a minor.

The Fat Man said...

Yahya snow and Rabid Dog just to let you know I have no problem looking back through the lens of history at what Mohamed did to Aisha.

I do not put 21st century western morals on a man who lived in 7th century Arabia.

What he did was nothing different then what other 7th century Arabs were doing in his time. This was acceptable behavior.

What I do have a problem with is that Mohamed froze this behavior making it acceptable for all people in all times. And that is un acceptable.

Ed said...

Yahya Snow,
You don't believe in the same Jesus that Christians believe in, right? You believe that at the end of time the Muslim Jesus will return, serve Islam, destroy all the crosses, and abolish the jizya, the tax Jews and Christians living under Islamic law must pay in a state of abject humiliation if they wish not to be killed. When the Muslim Jesus returns, there will be no more "protection" for Christians and Jews who live under Islamic law. No more dhimma. Islam will become even more severe than it is now: the Islamic Jesus will tell non-Muslims that there are only two alternatives: accept Islam, or die. Right?

What I find remarkable about your arguments that Islam does not allow sex with prepubescent girls is that you give no specific references from Qur'an, canonical hadith, Ishaq's Sira, to back up your claims that Aisha was mature. In the video David Wood showed of you, you quote no core texts. David Wood did quote specific Qur'an verses and specific hadith. So if your view is right, and David's view wrong, you have let him get away it completely.

In the video, you commit the fallacy of Argumentum ad Verecundiam -- appeal to authority. Because according to you, this authority and that authority and another authority say (at least to non-Muslims) that Islam does not permit sex with prepubescent girls, we are supposed to simply believe it. Just believe it, because Yahya says certain authorities believe so. But what if we are not satisfied with being sheep-like followers of authority? What if we want to see the arguments your authorities make, and see how they base those arguments on core Islamic texts? What do your authorities have to say to the many Muslims who "misunderstand" the core texts and marry prepubescent girls? In other words, if Argumentum ad Verecundiam isn't enough, i.e., if we want to try to think for ourselves, Yahya, that video appearance of yours was no help at all. Now why is that? You're an educated guy. You could have provided evidence if you had any. Why didn't you? Why Argumentum ad Verecundiam?

If it's not true that Muhammad consummated a marriage with a prepubescent 9 year old girl, why do many Muslims around the world say that the marriageable age for girls is 9? Even if you were correct in your statements about this, Yahya, you would have to admit that there is something about the core Islamic texts that persistently leads many Muslims to "misunderstand" these things, i.e., to believe it's okay to marry a prepubescent 9 year old. Why aren't you writing to the scholars in Yemen who resist reforms of marriage laws? Why aren't you writing to the Muslim men who marry prepubescent girls and why don't you explain to them they are being un-Islamic?

Why don't you write to this marriage official in Saudi Arabia.
Sex OK at 9, says Saudi cleric: 'Muhammad is model we follow. He took Aisha to be his wife when she was 6'
Why do you pretend this is a problem of Islamophobia only, and not a significant reality in the Islamic world?

Anthony Rogers said...

Yahya said: view the vid (and article) refuting his [Sam Shamoun's] idea on the angel of the Lord,

Yahya, you didn't come close to refuting anything in your video. I wrote four posts demonstrating your errors on this and even at that I wasn't even close to saying all that could have been said by way of response. I only stopped addressing the subject because I felt like it was a case of overkill and it was all too apparent that you didn't know what you were talking about.

However, since you are still at it, after I finish my next series of articles clobbering your Qur'an - which I guarantee you won't be bold enough to take on either - I will happily turn to the subject of the Malakh Yahweh again, but this time I will write a more formal, more comprehensive reply.

In short, although I don't expect you to answer what I have already written...just in case you unexpectedly come down with a case of courage, please try not to spend or shake it before I am finished so that you have something left when the battle is at its fiercest.

ben malik said...

Yahya, if you think you refuted Shamoun on the Angel then you be high from kissing the black stone. As Anthony said, you didn't anything but refute Sam or anybody else for that matter. But as long as you are kissing the black stone I don't expect you to see reality for what it is. Like I said, Shamoun is right for saying that you are Islam's premiere clown along with Nadir, Osama, Sami and Bassam. What don't you guys start doing Islamic sitcom since you guys more hilarious than the three stooges, marx brothers, abbot and costello, laurel and hardy combined. In fact, you sort of remind of Curly.

Fernando said...

Man... how dilusional can Yahya Snow bee to think his sub-qualified reply to Sam's work can be any kind off an answer? I would say, tahte eben for a muslim, he would reache a 9.3 in the international scale off dilusional behavior (the muhammad's scale)...

hugh watt said...

Lupus, confident?
S:46.9. Say: "I am no bringer
Of new-fangled doctrine
Among the apostles, NOR
DO I KNOW WHAT WILL
BE DONE WITH ME OR
WITH YOU. I follow
But that which is revealed
To me by inspiration;
I am but a Warner
Open and clear."

By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me,..(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 266)

Simon said...

to yahya


i knw u dont believe that the devil gotta hold of u cause ur seeing the world through ur blind eyes. what u need is a good wake up call either using a bucket full of cold water or a sit down lecture of jesus or mohammad with all the topics covered from page to page from each book. MY FRIEND THERE IS ONLY 1 GOD. In which we all agree but just look at the facts and just believe. there is no light in the end of the tunnel which ur walking on. and mite i add TRUST ME.

Fernando said...

Hold on!!! Stop the presses!!! A french soccer player called Franck Ribéry who converted to islam because "is the religion with the greatest core of moral values" was caught usinh under-age prostitutes...

ok, ok, ok... the problem off using under-gae prostitutes is not a moral question in islam: neither the under-age, nor the prostitutes... oh... whate a greatte example...

minoria said...

Hello Fernando:
Great you are back!I read a bit about it.He converted to be able to marry a Muslim woman.But obviously he no longer loves her.

ned said...

Those who claim to beleive Jesus are just decieving other since they are just opposite to what they claim. They do not believe in Jesus Who Himself claimed to be Son of God. They do not beleive His Word that He must die on cross and rise on third day. They do not obey His commands to love enemies. They do not believe in His command that anyone who marries a divorcee, divorced for the reasons other than adultery, actually commits adultery (mohammad did this with Zainab and also was the reason for her divorce). They decieve by falsely quoting the verse that says persecution in the name of Jesus, when as they are held to be defending mohammad's super bad stuff. All it shows that quran from its spirit and mohammad from its actions act against Jesus. Muslim's any claim about Jesus is just mocking The Presious Saviour.

Ilena said...

i read that 2 fernando and many conversion in europe r due to marrying a muslim counterpart and have nothing 2 do with investigating islam thoroughly. now its totally obvious that ribery did the same thing. he just wanted 2 please his wife, eventhough i am not sure if shes gonna be pleased after knowing these stuff he did.

IslamSINS said...

Puberty is a process, not an overnight event. KSA, Afghanistan, Yemen, have highly publicized problems with the child-bride syndrome. All are Islamic countries, keeping a short leash on Muhammad's slaves. Religiously sanctioned child-rape is most certainly an Islamic institution, guaranteed by Muhammad's sunnah.

73.151: Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)

92.377: Narrated Abdullah bin Dinar:
'Abdullah Bin 'Umar wrote to 'Abdul Malik bin Marwan, swearing allegiance to him: 'I swear allegiance to you in that I will listen and obey what is in accordance with the Laws of Allah and the Tradition of His Apostle as much as I can.'

To pretend these teachings aren't there only makes Muslims apostates. There is a phenomenon known as "precocious puberty", where girls as young as five have experienced menarche. Will she be allowed to take her Raggedy-Ann doll to the marriage bed? Forbid it heaven!

If you're ashamed of what your cult teaches, why wear the name?

Matthew 11:28 - Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Christ invites you to forsake the filth of Islam, and He provides the power to do so.

Sepher Shalom said...

YahyaSnow said: "Believers in Jesus,like myself, are not surprised to see/hear ppl insulting us (see matt 5:11)"

Really? Matthew chapter 5 contains the words of Yeshua?

If Matthew 5 contains the words of Yeshua you, Muhammad, and your whole religion are in big trouble. Here is a summary of how chapter you quoted condemns Islam and Muhammad (and you if you follow him):

In verse 8 Yeshua says, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”

What is the final example Muhammad left for the Muslims to copy? Breaking treaties, a prohibition of making a permanent peace treaty (only a Hudna can be given), and a final command to drive all the non Muslims out of the Arabian peninsula, and fight the unbelievers forcing Jews and Christians to pay Jizya in a state of humiliation and oppression. This is no peace. If the peacemakers are blessed, then your Muhammad and everyone that follows his Sunnah is cursed. Also, this verse says peacemakers will be called sons of God. Will Islam allow anyone to be sons of God? No, it rejects this idea. Allah is not your father and you are not his sons. Try going to Mecca and declaring, “Be peacemakers and we will be sons of Allah”.

In verse 16 Yeshua says that God is our Father. Surah Al-Ikhlaas denies that Allah can be a father.

In verse 28 Yeshua says, “But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Muhammad lusted after Zaynab when he saw her partially undressed. He lusted after her so much that he had his adopted son divorce her so he could have her.

Which brings me to my point. Verse 32: “But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” According to Yeshua and the holy word of God, Muhammad is an adulterer, made Zaynab into an adulteress, and since the Quran says Allah participated in it, the True God condemns Allah of the Quran for participating in adultery. Not only that, but the Quran teaches that if a man divorces his wife and wants to remarry her, she has to have sex with another man first. This is not only adultery, but is explicitly condemned by the Torah.

Verses 33-37 forbid the taking of false oaths, and not fulfilling your word as though a “Yes” always means yes, and a “No” always means no. What did Muhammad do and teach? Muhammad says that whenever he finds something better he just breaks his oaths. He also gave permission to his followers to lie in order to assassinate someone.

Verse 44: “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” and continuing in verse 46-47, “For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?” What did Muhammad do? He taught his followers, “Do not initiate the salaam with kuffar”, but instead to drive them to the narrowest part of the road. Muhammad had the kind of superficial 'love' that Yeshua condemned.

Yahya, you don't know Yeshua. You have no part in Him. It disgusts me that you try to use Him as your excuse for defending the Islamic teachings on sex with children. Don't associate me Lord and Savior with that kind of filth. I tell you the truth, you will be called to account before Yeshua who created you if try to make Him responsible for hurting children. You, and every Muslim like you that tries to cover your blasphemies by co-opting verses from the Bible will only continue to allow the Bible to expose your unholy ideology.

Repent Yahya. The only way to know Yeshua is to submit to the will of the Father and recognize that the Messiah is your Lord and Maker.

minoria said...

Hello Sepher Shalom:
I am glad you brought up the subject of the Sermon on the Mount.It fascinates me,what literary brilliance Jesus had!It's only 15 min but what words.

SERMON ON THE PLAIN
It's in LUKE.It's a shorter,different one.The text itself tells us it was said on a plain,but very beautiful.Skeptics say "which one did he say?"Dumb question.Both.He was preaching for 3 years.The sermon is NOT a ONE-TIME thing like the GETTYSBURG ADDRESS.

TOLSTOY,A RABBI AND THE SERMON ON MOUNT(and Judeophobia by Christians,sadly)
All the thoughts in the Mt Sermon come from Judaism.Tolstoy wrote:

"Not long ago I was reading the Sermon on the Mount with a rabbi.

At nearly every verse he showed me very similar passages in the Hebrew Bible and Talmud. When we reached the words, Resist not evil, he did not say, This too is in the Talmud, but asked, with a smile, Do the Christians obey this command? I had nothing to say in reply, especially as at that particular time, Christians, far from turning the other cheek, were smiting the Jews on both cheeks."

minoria said...

Hello Yahya:
I found it touching you made reference to MATT and the Sermon on the Mt.I once saw that done in the Muslim website understanding-islam.com.A Muslim had said in Canada he was being ridiculed for following the dietary rules.They were having the time of their lives,that he often wanted to explode.
The creator of the site said to be patient and cited "Blessed are.."from Matt.

ABOUT AISHA AGAIN
Was BUKHARI STUPID?If your mother(an honest person)tells you your father has a lover do you just believe her?
You do NOT doubt she's sincere,but she could be wrong.You VERIFY.

SO?
BUKHARI was intelligent,he eliminated 300,000 false hadiths,accepted like 7,000.
He got an ISNAD that was good and said Mohamm had sex with her at 9.

Did he accept it without question?He VERIFIED from independent sources.He must have been very sure,otherwise he would have REJECTED it.

MUSLIM
The story is in MUSLIM,the second most prestgious hadith collector.He would have VERIFIED the oral tradition,with documents,etc

minoria said...

Hello Lupus:
You say in Islam a girl has to be in PUBERTY to marry.Ok.But what inclines me to believe Mohammed was not in agreement are the "Aisha was 9" stories in BUKHARI and MUSLIM

MINIMALIST ARGUMENT
1.Let's say in THEIR time Islamic law said "girl has to have puberty."Perfect.
2.THEY woud have said:"This is a strong affirmation,Aisha at 9!"
3.They would have verified.They weren't stupid,they must have been very sure to have included those hadiths as true.

Does it 100% show it happened?No,200 years had passed but even AFTER 200 years the evidence available to them was so strong they accepted it...even if,as Muslims say,Islamic law was against it.THAT's why I am 90% inclined to accept it,using the CRITERIA of EMBARASSMENT of the HISTORICAL METHOD.

Jabari said...

yahya, I hope you come to know Christ as Saviour and stop associating him with anything nasty lest you find yourself judged by him all of a sudden.

larry said...

HOW TO THIGH & GET HIGH

Now let us see how thighing is practiced on a female child & who began this evil practice. According to an official Fatwa issued in Saudi Arabia, the prophet Muhammad began to practice thighing his child-bride, Aisha when she was 6 years old until she reached 9 years of age (Fatwa No. 31409). The hadith mentioned the prophet Muhammad started performing literal sex with Aisha ONLY when she reached the age of 9 (Sahih al-Bukhari, book 62, hadith No. 89).

Muslim scholars collectively agree, a child becomes an adult, available for sexual intercourse as soon as she reaches the age of nine. Likewise, the Shari'a allows any of the faithful to marry a six-year-old child.

According to the fatwa, the prophet Muhammad could not have sex with his fiancée, Aisha when she was six due to her small size & age. However, the fatwa said that at age six, he would put his penis between her thighs and massage it gently because he did not want to harm her.

Imagine a man of 51 removing the clothes of a 6-year-old girl and slipping his erect penis between her thighs, rubbing her until he ejaculated and his semen ran down her thighs. To this day, this is considered a benevolent act on the part of the adult male "not wanting to harm her." What harm could be inflicted upon a young girl mentally and emotionally if not a grown man showing her his penis and stripping her of her clothes and rubbing his male organ between her legs?

Of course the twisted mind that does such an evil to a female child, would not hesitate to ejaculate on her body. And if this sexually perverted evil frame of mind committed such an act upon a child, the pedophile would not stop at ejaculating on her. His evil desire would go further and rape the child before she was a mature adult. This is exactly what Muhammad did to Aisha when she was yet a child of 9.

Before she reached puberty, he began to have sex with her. Let us see what the fatwa said about the prophet of Islam and his child-bride, Aisha."Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the one after whom there is no [further] prophet. After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwas (religious decrees) reviewed the question presented to the grand Mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad Al-Shamari, with reference number 1809 issued on 3/8/1421(Islamic calendar).

The inquirer asked the following: 'It has become wide spread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufakhathat of the children (mufakhathat literally translated means "placing between the thighs of children" which means placing the male erected penis between the thighs of a child). What is the opinion of scholars knowing full well that the prophet, the peace and prayers of Allah be upon him, also practiced the "thighing" of Aisha - the mother of believers ?'

larry said...

HOW TO TIGH

PART 2

After the committee studied the issue, they gave the following reply: 'It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kofar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the Prophet, peace and prayers of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age.

That is why the prophet peace and prayers of Allah be upon him placed his penis between her thighs and massaged it lightly, as the apostle of Allah had control of his penis not like other believers'" (Fatwa No. 31409).

Thighing of children is practiced in many Arab and Muslim countries, notably in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, and the Gulf countries. Also evil practices like altamatu'a bil almuka'aba (pleasure from sexual contact with her breasts), altamatu'a bil alsagirah (pleasure from sexual contact with a baby girl), altamatu'a bil alradi'ah, (pleasure from sexual contact with a suckling female infant), (Reported by Baharini Women's Rights Activist, Ghada Jamshir)

AISHA WASHING SEMEN FROM MUHAMMAD'S CLOTHES

From the Hadith of Bukhari:

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 229:

Narrated 'Aisha:

I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it (water spots were still visible).

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 231:

Narrated Sulaiman bin Yasar:

I asked 'Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's Apostle and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible. "

Bart Connolly said...

Re: Married at 6 consummated at 9 . This story isnt only one in two Hadiths. Here are references to ones surrounding it. I tried to llok them up on Islamic sites but couldnt find them. I eventually found the following site which seems to be an academic site and has them.
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/home/
The references are Sahih al-Bukhari
vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153 & no.234 p.152;
vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.65 & no.163 p.119

vol.5 book 58 ch.44 no.245 p.158
Sahih Muslim
vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716
&3310 & 3311


Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 ch.1005 no.5981-5982 p.1299

Sunan Abu Dawud - seven moire references saying aged 9
vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569
vol.3 book 36 ch.1769 no.4913 p.1373
vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915 p.1374
and 4916 & 4917 & 4918 & 4919

Tirmidhi "Marriage according to Allah's apostle", #1027 ~ affirms nine years of age

Sunan Nas’ai

Book of Marriage, no.3255-3259
Not counting English translation notes, the Arabic has 5 references and no counter-references to affirm that A’isha was nine. the translators note supports this since under note 18 he says "under #18.

"When Hadrat ‘A’isha passed nine years of married life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness. On the 9th or the 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal 11 A.H., he left this mortal world…Hadrat ‘A’isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away"
Ibn-i-Majah
vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1876 p.133
&1877 p.134

The Historian ibn Ishaq - died 767/773 A.D. 145/151 A.H.
(Guillaume, A., The Life of Muhammad, a translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan, page 682). A’isha said she was an extreme youth when Mohammed died.

The Historian al-Tabari - died 923 A.D.
al-Tabari vol.9 (year A.H. 10) p.129-131
al-Tabari vol.7 (year A.H. 1) p.7.
al-Tabari says she consummated her marriage with the prophet when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.39 p.171,173.
One possible contradiction:
al-Tabari also wrote that i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period." (Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, vol.4, (Account of Luhrasb) p.50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979. al-Tabari vol.11 (A.H 13) p.141 also mentions this, with footnote 766 saying al-Tabari has a conflict here. The footnote also says that al-Baladhuri’s Ansab I, p.409-411; Ibn Hajar’s Isabah IV, p.359-360 supports her being married by 9 years old.
The central question's are Either
A. all the above Hadiths in error in which case how can Muslim's trust any Hadith if they believe over twenty of them including from their most trusted scholars are not reliable OR
B. They believe they are reliable and their main prophet had full sex with a girl of nine and possibly other acts short of full penetrative sex in the three years before that in which case do they accept such acts as acceptable?

I wonder if some Muslims could clarify what they believe. Are the Hadiths correct or are they wrong and if they are correct then is such an act acceptable or not?