Tuesday, January 19, 2010

Saudi Arabia: 80-Year-Old Muslim Marries 11-Year-Old Child

Now where on earth would a Muslim get the idea that it's perfectly acceptable for an elderly man to have sex with a child?

News of a Saudi octogenarian marrying an eleven-year-old girl has outraged human rights activists amid calls on the government to regulate the marriage of underage girls, local media reported Saturday.

The Saudi National Human Rights Commission formed a committee to investigate the marriage, which activists consider a flagrant violation of human and children rights, the Saudi newspaper al-Riyadh said.

The marriage registrar, who was widely criticized since he agreed to seal the marriage contract knowing the girl's age, absolved himself of any blame.

"There is no law that prohibits the marriage of a girl under 18," he told the paper. "Plus, I summoned the girl and she declared her consent and signed the contract." . . .

The groom expressed his surprise at how the media leveled harsh criticism against him and his family for marrying the girl.

"It is very simple. We didn’t do anything wrong. It is a valid contract that meets all the conditions for marriage. What's the point of all this fuss?"

The groom has three other wives, all much younger, and they all have kids. Read More.

28 comments:

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

wonder what Osama Abdallah has to say about this?

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

May God free the girl out of this force of pedofilia.

Fernando said...

Yes brother Hogan... this has no other name than institucionalized paedophilia... lets waite to see how WomenforTruthe will try to say this is non-islamic...

Osama Abdallah said...

"wonder what Osama Abdallah has to say about this?"

Again, I am only responding because it is a direct challenge to me.

I say this used to happen during the old days even prior to Islam throughout the cultures and religions.
To me, this marriage is wrong and I've written a big article on this proving from the Glorious Quran that such marriage is displeasing to Allah Almighty and is forbidden: http://www.answering-christianity.com/minimum_age_for_marriage.htm.

You can't disprove Islam from the action of extremely minority people. The overwhelming majority of all Muslims aren't even polygamists, let alone marry young girls at old ages.

You know well that your bible gives the man the authority to marry an UNLIMITED amount of women. And their is not age limit either: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ntpoly.htm. Also, who told you that your bible's Prophets, who married 100s of women, didn't have such age differences with some of their wives? You say it is not documented in the bible, and therefore, we can't accept this argument to be valid. I say this is no more than a childish and desperate nonsense that I keep hearing from adult christians that only goes to show how desperate, superficial and unethical they are. And it's not like your bible is a leading example in morality. A book that is full of pornography and even incestuous fantasies isn't a book that is from Allah Almighty:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/x_rated.htm
.

But again, to answer your question, no, I don't agree with this marriage, nor would I do it, nor is it allowed in Islam. The marriage of our Prophet to our mother Aisha was an exception, assuming even that her age was even accurately reported to begin with. There is a lot of evidence that shows that she was 18 or somewhere around that age. But be as it may, the Glorious Quran has made it clear that little boys and girls are not allowed to be married off, and Allah Almighty left the determination of the girls and boys' minimum ages for marriage open based on the time, situation, condition, mental and physical status, and other important factors that the person (boy or girl) and society have. The marriage of the 11-year old girl to the almost-dead grandpa is unfair to the girl. And Allah Almighty in COUNTLESS NOBLE VERSES had elaborated greatly on justice in life and also specifically on justice in marriage: http://www.answering-christianity.com/polygamy.htm. THIS IS NO JUSTICE TO THE GIRL AT ALL. I think her father was paid well from this conspiracy with the almost-dead grandpa.

I strongly believe that this is what Islam stands for.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Semper Paratus said...

I wonder if the eighty year old man is fit enough to catch the little girl and administer the appropriate beat down if she gets out of line.

Brianman said...

lol this is so funny, Christians great great whatever grandmother was probably even younger than 11.

Mary was 12/14. Joseph was 90.

Prophet Muhammad & Aisha 1/3, Islam Answers - type that on youtube.

I am disgusted at the people who are posting articles like this. Especially if they are a believer in God.


May God help you realise that you could well have been a product of 'pedophilia' via your great great whatever grandmother. Your mom. lol

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Osama,

I simply don't see how you have proven anything, when does a Muslim girl become a women in Islam, when she is ready for sex and of sound mind?

According to Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and others, Aisha was 9 years old, when Muhammad being above 50 engaged in sex with her.

Are you saying that Muhammad the example of godly conduct in Islam married a girl who was not mature for sex or of sound mind, or is a 9year old considered to be of sound mind and ready for sex in Islam?

Either your prophet contradicts Islam or Osama is wrong.

Can you show me verse from the Bible that explicitly permits men (as a divine permission) to marry as many girls as they like and of any age they want?

Brianman,

there is no evidence that, Mary was 12 or that Joseph was 90. Your are quoting Catholic Encyclopedia from an Islam polemic side, which quotes an apocryphical writing.

In fact the Talmud describes it as a disgrace to marry young girls to old men. Typically Jews in the First century married 12-15 year old girls to 18 year old boys. Not 12 or 9 year old to 50 year old men.

What we see in Islam is an act of pedofilia and your prophet is the example that condones such conduct.

The Fat Man said...

Well at least Osama said it was WRONG.

Brianman said...

lol, don't try and escape that there are various sources that are not just the Catholic Encyclopedia, there are national statistics too which are from independent sources. I find it absurd that you are trying to go against these sources.

The talmud still stated, scholars still stated that you can have sex with 3 year old girls.

minoria said...

I read Brianman's comment about people's great-great grandmother being married at 11.I remember I read a book about Russian culture called NATASHA'S DANCE where it states that Russian girls generally got married at age 18(around 1800-1850) but that it was even then LOWER than the average age of marriage for girls in Europe(25 years of age).That is what is stated in that book,and I believe the author would have verified before making the statement.So 1800-1850 would be the time of people's great-great grandmother.

Fernando said...

Dear Brianman... this is déjà vu... iff you can provide a SINGLE evidence thate "Mary was 12/14. Joseph was 90"?...

if you manage to do so, I'll go back to be a muslim ounce again... butt remeber: iff you fail, I guess thate must be taken in accounte when you take in consideration the value off the muslim love for truth...

Fernando said...

Hi Osama Abdallah... glad to see you arounde here... how's your family? Is it true tahte everything is OK withe them? I guess then you habe not beateen your wife her daylieght out off her... I'm glad to you bouthe: to her so she can keep her health; to you so you can keep your straight to other extenuous activities...

may the blessed Trinity, our common God, bless you all...

minoria said...

Hello:

I often review debates and arguments.I recently heard an AHMED DEEDAT debate where he said nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say "I am GOD" or "worship me."

TRUE

Now it seems Deedat didn't know that in the OT it was a Jewish expression to call men "god"(in the sense of important,powerful).Like today you can call a beautiful woman "a godess".God even calls Moses "god" like 2X.

SO?

If Jesus had said "I am God" Deedat would point to the OT passages.But Jesus said he was the "LORD of the SABBATH" which only applies to God.The sabbath was created by God and for God,in his honor.He did say he was God then.It's obvious Deedat didn't know the OT or he wasn't interested in being accurate.

minoria said...

ANOTHER THING

In debates one hears that if Jesus really said he would die and resurrect on the third day then:"WHY were the disciples SURPRISED and SKEPTICAL when they heard he had resurrected?It's illogical."

JESUS PREDICTS HIS DEATH-RESURRECTION

At least 3 times he says it and he would rise on the 3rd day(in the Synoptics).

PRETEND TO BE A TYPICAL 1ST CENT.PALESTINIAN JEW:

That's what skeptics don't do.It's written Jesus disciples did NOT UNDERSTAND when Jesus told them that.Skeptics assume it means they LITERALLY didn't understand something so simple.Of course they did,what they didn't understand was the REASON for it.They expected the MESSIAH to be a conqueror,free Palestine.

BLASPHEMY

Jesus said he was God in his trial.The disciples knew it.It would have taken them as a shock.Jesus lost it at the last moment and was killed for it.THAT was why they gave no importance to the prediction.It fits in logically(they knew about it but rejected it PRECISELY because Jesus had claimed to be God,God would not raise a blasphemer from the dead).

TWO THINGS

The typical 1st cent. Palestinian Jew was NOT expecting the Messiah to get killed but to triumph and would NOT expect a blasphemer to be vindicated by God.In that the disciples were men of their time and that was why they didn't understand the WHY of Jesus' prophecy and were skeptical about the resurrection.

minoria said...

FINALLY:

As PROOF that the TYPICAL 1st cent.Palestinian Jew(like Jesus' disciples)expected a triumphant Messiah(and so would have been utterly UNABLE to comprehend the WHY of Jesus prediction about his death-resurrection)is from here:

I had added this before but it's always good to review:

EXAMPLE 1:

FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS ( 37-100 AD ), the famous Jewish historian, in his JEWSIH WARS, which told of the Jewish revolt of 66-70 AD says in Book VI, 5.4, about:" an ambiguous ORACLE that was also found in their ANCIENT WRITINGS,how about THAT time(note:1st century AD), one from THEIR COUNTRY(note:Palestine) should become GOVERNOR of the HABITABLE EARTH." (He can only be referring to the DANIEL 9:24-27 prophecy).He later says it refers to Emperor Vespasian.

EXAMPLE 2:

TACITUS ( 50-117 AD ), greatest of the Roman historians, wrote in his HISTORY ( note: of the Roman empire), Book V, 13:" the MAJORITY were deeply impressed with the persuasion that it was contained in the ANCIENT WRITINGS of the PRIESTS that it would come to pass that AT THE VERY TIME(note:1st cent. AD), that the EAST would renew its strength and they that should go forth from JUDEA should be RULERS of the WORLD. "

EXAMPLE 3:

SUETONIUS ( 75-150 AD ), another famous Roman historian, in his LIVES of the CEASERS ( chapter on the Life of Vespasian ) says:" a FIRM PERSUASION had long prevailed through all the EAST that it was fated for the EMPIRE OF THE WORLD at THAT TIME (note:1st century AD)to devolve on SOMEONE who should go forth from JUDEA. "

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Brianman,

lol, don't try and escape that there are various sources that are not just the Catholic Encyclopedia, there are national statistics too which are from independent sources.

Hogan replies:

Which national statistics from the first century, can you name them? And do these varify the marriage of Mary and Joseph at the age of 12and 90?

Brianman wrote:

I find it absurd that you are trying to go against these sources.

Hogan replies:

Which sources are you on about?

If you think I will fall for a encyclopedia article which simply quotes and apocryphical source, then you need to think over again.

Brianman wrote:

The talmud still stated, scholars still stated that you can have sex with 3 year old girls.

Hogan:

Yeah some Jewish scholars believed it was acceptable to marry nine year old girls. However, this is not general Jewish concept, neither is it Biblical. In the Song of Song 8: 8-9 we read of a young underaged girl being asked for, this was acceptable to her family which decided to protect her.

The Talmud in fact describes marrying young girls to old men a disgrace.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

sorry guys I need to correct my previous quote:

'Yeah some Jewish scholars believed it was acceptable to marry nine year old girls. However, this is not general Jewish concept, neither is it Biblical. In the Song of Song 8: 8-9 we read of a young underaged girl being asked for, this was acceptable to her family which decided to protect her'.

Actually, there were some Jewish scholars who believed that it was ok to marry 3 years old girls, but as I point out, this was not a Biblical rule, neither is there a consent among Jewish scholars. Also this does not assume that this three year old had sex with a nine 90 years old; that was disgrasable among Jews.

As I quoted from the Song of songs: it should read:

'In the Song of Song 8: 8-9 we read of a young underaged girl being asked for, this was not acceptable to her family who decided to protect her'.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

As to Osama, and his comment on Old Testament narrative applying as a general rule, especially the kings marrying a multiple number of girls.

In the Old Testament there are strict rules concerning kings and wives in the Torah. Deuteronomy 17 describes the rules of the kings.

In verse 17 it prohibits the king to multiply the number of wives.

In fact the list of rules reveals that both David and Solomon broke this rule and a number of other rules.

Osama seems to think that any narrative event in the Old Testament describes Biblical conduct, this is an insane way to interpret any book or source.

Narrative is narrative and Law is Law. The narrative reveals how the Law was upheld and when and how the Law was broken.

If Osama holds on to this interpretation does this conclusion not contradict his own claim that only Muhammad could marry a nine year old when he was 50 years old. The text does not verify Osama's claim and clearly the narrative which according to Osama's standard is Law and godly conduct must then apply to this 80 year old who married an 11 year old girl; he is simply following the Law and narrative of his prophet.

And how about the command in the Qur'an to attack the unbelievers, make war upon them until they are subjugated and humiliated.

Will Osama be so kind and be consistent and admit that this is a general command for the Muslim community.

Fernando said...

Hi Brianman... still waitting for ONLY ONE source thate states that "Mary was 12/14. Joseph was 90"...

You also states thate The talmud still stated, scholars still stated that you can have sex with 3 year old girls...

can you present here the text where thate is stated?

if you manage to do so, I'll go back to be a muslim ounce again... butt remeber: iff you fail, I guess thate must be taken in accounte when you take in consideration the value off the muslim love for truth...

wouldn't you like to bee the responsible off my "convertion" to your new religion? as you saide: lol...

p.s.: don't loose time withe the Talmud... alçl it sais is thate if a baby girl withe 3 years old is rapped by someone, when she's going, latter in life, to contract marriage, the fact thate she had loste her virginity when she was rapped shoulde not be accounted for as a negative consecuence to her...

Fernando said...

How many tims habe we readcomments from our good muslims friendes aboutte Mary being 12 and Joseph being 90?

Just a list off those I remeber thate wrotte this lie here:

Ibn;
Ali;
Osama Abdallah;
Ethesham Gulam;
Brianman;
Krishnaraj...

is this the exemple off the measure off whate muslims can learn aboutt Christianitie from other muslims? Whate does this say aboutt the love for the truthe from muslims?

minoria said...

I had also noticed that DEUT 17 :17says about the KING to "NOT multiply his wives".I see it as telling us that the KING was the EXAMPLE to follow,for his people,so there is a displeasure with polygamy.

Hogan,thanks for the information about SONG OF SONGS 8:8-9,where yes,it talks of a prepuberty girl.In fact,in verse 7 before it you see it clearly talks of getting a woman for marriage.My knowledge of the OT is not as good as of the NT,thank you again.

Brianman said...

Narrated Abdullah: "We were with the Prophet, peace be upon him, while
we were young and had no wealth whatever. So Allah's Apostle, peace be
upon him, said, `O young people! Whoever among you can marry, should
marry, because it helps him lower his gaze and guard his modesty, and
whoever is not able to marry, should fast, as fasting diminishes his
sexual power.'"

So in Islam, it is important for the men to marry whilst being young too. It is 'preferable', but this doesn't change the fact that marriages do exist between elderly and young people. And even still, a 20 year old with a 3 year old + 1 day is worse. Eligible for sexual relations and they have only just got on their own two feet. No offense, but that could have been your mother back in the days.

And besides, all of the other reputable sources in that video doesn't lie.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Brianman wrote:

So in Islam, it is important for the men to marry whilst being young too. It is 'preferable', but this doesn't change the fact that marriages do exist between elderly and young people. And even still, a 20 year old with a 3 year old + 1 day is worse. Eligible for sexual relations and they have only just got on their own two feet. No offense, but that could have been your mother back in the days.

And besides, all of the other reputable sources in that video doesn't lie.

Hogan replies:

Brian it amazes me (and I may sound rude, but I have to say it) that someone who is joining a medical college has such a problem to understand the basics of this topic.

Firstly, Brianman, your prophet engaged in sex with a nine year old girl, when he was above 50 years of age. He is the primary example of those who follow Islam.

So whether he encourages men to marry young, is not really a related matter.
The matter of relevance here is that in Islam older men can marry and engage in sex with children.

I guess the same is allowed in war when Muslim soldiers are permitted to rape captive women.

Who knows Brianman, that could have been your mother, wife, sister or daughter, even you 9 year old daughter.

Secondly, concerning you reference to Christianity, the Bible and certain Jewish rabbis, the conclusion you draw is virtually ridicolous.

Firstly, Marriage with three years old is not biblical, a Jewish Rabbi of the century prior to Jesus held to his opinion, but there is no common consent between him and other rabbis.

So lets nail this fact once and for all, marriage with three years old is not Old Testament Biblical.

Secondly, it is not New Testament Biblical or Christian either.

Thirdly, a Christian does not abide by the Jewish Rabbis, Talmud or any none-biblical Jewish theological writings (read the Gospel of Mark, chapter 7).

We value much of its information as historical and vital for our studies, yet we are not followers of the Rabbis. Except of course Jesus and Paul.

You are reading the distorted view of an early rabbi into the Christian faith.

Careful bro, you would fail miserable in your exam or thesis if you were to draw this conclusion.

Fernando said...

Brianman... ounce again: can you present here ANY source corroborating you claime thate someone saide thate a 3 years old + 1 day baby is "Eligible for sexual relations and they have only just got on their own two feet"? I say thus because we all know youre imposing your muslim false interpretation off teh text uppon the text...

as I saide: don't loose time withe the Talmud... it sais is thate if a baby girl withe 3 years old is rapped by someone, when she's going, latter in life, to contract marriage, the fact thate she had loste her virginity when she was rapped shoulde not be accounted for as a negative consecuence to her...... will you prove us all wrongue? thankes...

Nakdimon said...

Brainman,

Do you really think that Judaism supposedly sanctioning sex with 3-year olds vindicates Islam from the attrocity of its prophet marrying a 6-year old and having sex with her at 9?

Yes, I said "Judaism SUPPOSEDLY sanctioning" sex with 3-year olds, because in reality, there is no such thing. The so-called quote from the Talmud doesnt even exist. Many Muslims just copy and paste (and thereby parrot) other Muslims in order to vilify others, without even checking the sources they are handed. When they "quote" the Talmud about the 3-year old girl they always refer to Yevamot 11b. If Muslims would just BOTHER to check their sources they will see that Yevamot 11b and you will see that there is absolutely nothing about marrying 3-year olds in there. (For a discussion on Yevamot 11b : http://alfasi.blogspot.com/2007/05/rif-yevamot-2b-yevamot-11a-continues.html)

The so-called quote is from Ketuvot 11b. The word Ketuvot simply means "contract" and in this instance it is about "marriage contracts". In this marriage contracts the terms are discussed for the marriage and eventually the age for marriage comes up. Just looking at the original text shows that this is not about sanctioning 3-year olds to be married, but that it is an abomination to have sexual relations with a minor:

Rav Yehudah said in the name of Rav: A male child who has relations with a female adult causes her to be like one who was injured with a stick... Rava said: This is what was meant - an adult male who has relations with a female child has not done anything because less than this [three years old] is like sticking a finger into an eyeball.

Where people get the nasty quote from is beyond me, because it doesn’t even exist! Obviously this is actually a condemnation of the practice of having sex with a little child by the text of the Talmud.

This is what the Talmud does say about the age of marriage:

Qiddushin 41a: It is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry'!

Anyone that knows anything about Judaism knows that in Judaism the wedding ceremony consists of two parts: The Qiddushin and the Nisuin. The Qiddushin is the first part which consists of the marital agreements (contract: terms of marriage, terms of divorce, etc). The Nisuin is the second part, which is actually the closing of the wedding ceremony. This is the part where the marriage is sealed and the bride and the groom come together and live as husband and wife in their home. This entire process may take up to a year or even longer. This process was already installed in the time of Yeshua. We read in Matthew 1:

18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

We see here that at the beginning of the process of marriage they were already regarded as husband and wife and therefore, even though the ceremony was not finished, Yosef had to treat it as a valid marriage and officially divorce Miriam if he wanted to get rid of her.

I tell u all this because to show that this is a practice that is wide spread, well known and needs no comprehensive study. This is not something one has to dig deep for to find. A short and simple search would show what the Talmud was talking about with the quote. There is no sanctioning of 3-year old marriages in Yevamot 11b or in Ketuvot 11b. In fact, having sexual relations with a minor is likened to sticking a finger into an eyeball. So even according to this “immoral Talmud” what your prophet Muhammad did to Aisha is a condemnable practice.


May the Messiah guide you into His truth,
Nakdimon

Nakdimon said...

To Brianman: Then about the age of Mary. Please quote the source that says she was 12 and Joseph was 90. And while you’re at it, can you give us the reference to that quote so we can check it out. I have a feeling we have seen it before and if that feeling is correct, you blatantly distort what that source says since your own source refutes your position.

Rgds,
Nakdimon

Nakdimon said...

Hi Hogan,

I was going to ask you about the Song of Songs quote on the young girl that was asked in marriage, but I already see you corrected it.

Thanks bro,
Nakdimon

Nakdimon said...

So Brianman wants to quote hadiths about Islam and it’s practices on marriage. Let’s quote some more to see what he conveniently left out:

Girls that are too young:
[Shakir 65:4] And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses;


This is what your commentators say about how this verse came about:
Al Jalalayn: And [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months

Ibn Abbas: (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months

Al-Wahidi: … Ubayy ibn Ka‘b said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, some women of Medina are saying: there are other women who have not been mentioned!’ He asked him: ‘And who are they?’ He said: ‘Those who are too young [such that they have not started menstruating yet],… And so this verse (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation…) was revealed”.


Fornicating with women that are already married (in front of their husbands):
[Shakir 4:24] And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you,

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, send down the Qur'anic verse: "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hand possess."[Surah 4:24] ...Sunan Abu Dawud, Book V, Chapter 711, Number 2150


And there are many many more, but I don’t want to flood you with all the immoral quotations from your primary sources. Let’s deal with these for now.

Care to comment?

Nakdimon