Tuesday, January 12, 2010

Response to Brianman on the Qur'an and atoms: a case study of Muslim responses to polemics

I find it appropriate to post here Brianman’s reply to my post on the Qur’an and atoms: http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/01/debunking-claim-that-quran-predicts.html and assess it for a number of reasons.

I find it amazing that Muslims can simply read such argumentation and brush it a side as Brianman does. I respond to his reply here on a separate thread since the approach he takes and the arguments he raises are simply too typical of Muslim apologists; hence this becomes a case study.

Brianman wrote:

Who do I go to?

Someone like Nabeel who has just completed medical school?

Someone LIKE Hogan who refers to textbooks at best?

Hogan replies:

Your reply Brianman, completely fails to consider the content, context, details and purpose and simply jumps into the issue by throwing in to it a number of modern Muslim apologist jargon without considering its relevance to the actual topic I raised on this thread.

I don’t know all about Nabeel; he has indeed completed medical school, which indeed gives him a certain insight into a number of these matters such as embryology in the Qur’an; hence Brianman this comment of yours is slightly of the track. Furthermore, this thread was about the atoms hence there is not point to bring Nabeel’s education into this.

As for me using textbooks, I wish you could elaborate on that. The fact is: every scientist conveys his information either through text books or teaching, in any case, to become informed one has to resort to the text or teaching of the experts. However, to elaborate more on the text I utilized, then notice Brian, that I was not conferring with modern scientists about this matter at all (this was not the issue raised in the thread), you could have detected this if you read the original post on the thread properly.

I was looking backward into the science of the Greeks and the Romans prior to the Islamic era and elaborated on the views of these early scientists in comparison with the points raised by the human Qur’anic author. I was not considering modern science, hence you reference to consult with modern experts is also irrelevant.

Hence Your reference to me or Nabeel in terms of medical school or texts as a critical pointers are not matters of relevant to this thread.

But to your information, I did consult with the experts, such as Greek philosophers and in particular the Roman thinker Lucretius and even referred to the book of Lucretius, The Nature of the Universe, written 50 BC, how much more professional can this be done? These were the experts of the time!

Brianman wrote:

Anyone who claims that Muhammad pbuh plagiarised scientific works from the Greeks etc. when they have no evidence that Muhammad pbuh received it and viewed these works. Empty arguments from empty hearts.

Hogan replies:

This can easily be proven, I did write a article on that (do check it out):

http://debunkingquranicscience.blogspot.com/2010/01/did-quranic-authors-borrow-information.html

Muhammad borrowed heavily from the Greeks and the Jews. North Arabia was in close proximity with Syria and South Arabia, both highly advanced cultures in those days, so were the Jews. All three cultures had great impact upon North Arabia. In fact several of Muhammad’s followers were from these cultures.

But do read my article.

Brianman wrote:

Or do I believe scientists on the very highest level of their specialisation who are the ones who are learned enough to even write books that some random Christian would try to refute?

Hogan replies:

Since the context of the thread focused on pre-Islamic science I did consult the ‘scientists of the very highest level of their specialisation’ of that time.

This is exactly what I did!

You stated above that I was in error when I referred to text books, now you refer to scientists who write books and you glorify these writings. Am I misunderstanding your previous points or do you contradict yourself?

Brianman wrote:

The scientists who have carried out independent investigations and in many cases, personal experiments? Scientists who work with many other scientists and get their work checked by other top scientists, whether they are Christian or not, before they say "This from the Qur'an, is a miracle"? They even convert to Islam.

Hogan replies:

The Qur’an reveals nothing new about modern science! What you recon as science in the Qur’an, such as embryology, atoms and sub-atomic particles, the supposed Big Bang in the Qur’an, just to mention a few examples were all discoveries made prior to Islam.

A few scientists may have converted to Islam, but so what? Scientists have also converted to Christianity, and theistic scientists have turned into atheism. Your argument here proves nothing!

Brianman wrote:
Scientific accounts before Qur'an have some falsehood's inside it, i.e. Galen's work does contain falsehood. How comes the Qur'an sieves the falsehoods from the truths that modern TOP non-political scientists agree on?

Hogan replies:

Qur’anic embryology is not without error, it resembles Galen. In fact there were a number of embryologist schools in Muhammad’s time; unfortunately we do not even have access to all the ideas a theories the author of the Qur’an had access to at that time. Funny also that the Syriac Christians were particularly into Galen and embryology and these were the Christians who had a major impact upon North Arabia, its society and Muhammad.

I guess you are referring to Keith Moore when you refer to top scientists. Keith Moore as far as I am told has taken his few references on the Qur’an back. Some say he was paid to make such references, I can’t say that is true, yet we know that Western scientists have been bribed to comment on passages in the Qur’an and some have even refused such cheap misuse of science and exposed the attempt of these Islamic scientist fraud movements. Indeed I know that Keith Moore utterly regrets his previous connection with the Qur’an in this day and age.

Maurice Bucaille who originally began this movement, is not even a Muslim! Why? Because he knows the entire enterprise originally was inaugurated for the sake of hugs sums of money. He tricked the Muslim world with a book that is nothing but fiction. The Muslim world ate these ideas raw and continued in his steps. Only two things have come out of it 1) all the Muslims who remain Muslims by their conviction that these ideas and interpretations of the Qur’an are factual; 2) the laughter of the non-Muslim community.

Brianman wrote:
There is nothing for me to say, no need for me to respond to this thread.

Hogan replies:

There is indeed much more to say: you have not considered the focus or context of the article; you have resorted to irrelevant arguments; and you glorify the deceitful tactics of modern Muslim organisations who bribe scientists and read modern science into a book that originally was depended upon the science of its time.

26 comments:

The Fat Man said...

Wow HOGAN you are on Fire man.

David Wood said...

Hogan's off the chain.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

yeah MA is over....but PhD is coming.

Gem said...

Great work Hogan..
Man.. brianman will not be able to sleep tonight...

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Brian--

What do you do for a living? I'm curious how trained you are in the realm of science.

Cheers,
-Nabeel

Fernando said...

Hi Briandude... are you going to boickot brother Hogan Hagbard as well?

Brianman said...

I'm not planning to give a 'response', I'll tell you why on this comment.

I wasn't planning to come back on this site because there's barely any muslims on it or anything. But I wanted to check for the sake of it.

I come on answeringmuslims and I see a new thread lol

I'm just 18 and I have people quoting things what I have written - creating a whole article about it, this is a bit silly? I expected just a little comment, not a whole thread ahaha.

I'm not in a position to speak for Islam, try contacting Muslim apologists with a specialism in science?

Why create a whole thread about me and this issue? I'm just stating that I would expect you to debate with top scientists, that's all.

I converted to Islam knowing the main arguments against Muhammad pbuh though about his character and stuff.
However, the most important thing was, even before I took Muhammad pbuh as a prophet I said to myself, if this Qur'an really is miraculous, I don't care if Muhammad pbuh is as bad as the prophets presented in the Bible, it turns out that he wasn't bad lol
Yeah, I've heard some debates against the miraculous Qur'an too. Qur'an answered the questions I wanted answers for too. It gives me a reason for the existence of God, based on the Qur'anic challenge. You might know just a bit more about it if you have watched Hamza Andreas Tzortzis.
..and no, the true furqan is not a book that meets this challenge Nabeel lol I was laughing my head off when you spoke of the true furqan in a debate. There are rumours that this was written by Anis Sorrosh lol I don't know if they are true or not, but..lol

So instead of quoting an 18 year old boy who has walked into the realms of religion properly not long ago, have a debate with muslim apologists who SPECIFICALLY debate science and it's history, especially in the light of Arabia. i.e a muslim historian famous scientist - whatever, you get the drift.
Debate the top of the top people on this topic. Why debate a random young boy? I just gave a little comment.

Yes, so Hogan's off the chain, Hogan's on fire?! For what? For creating a whole thread as if to show that I speak on behalf of Islam????

Wow the PhD is coming is it? Giving a response to a 18 year old boy, when the 18 year old boy isn't really too satisfied with the response, because it is given to the young boy and not a whole bunch of reputable muslim scholars? And even then, it still doesn't show that Muhammad pbuh copied the embryology accounts and all of the other stuff and put it into the Qur'an and got exposed for it.

As for my credentials, I'm a UK student. 2011 september, I'll be doing a year in University of Toronto as a part of my Bachelors which is from a very prestigious uni in the UK, you wanted to know - so I have your 18 year old equivalent credentials for biol and chem at A grade lol so what? I'm not here to debate my credentials, I only stated yours and questioned Hogan because I expect both of you to debate top people if they are going to debate this issue. I swear to you. I maybe academic but I am only 18 lol
If you ever go to Canada 2011-2012 to debate, I would obv go to see it. Ok, I'm not going to reveal too much about me, you wanted to know my credentials.

lol sorry Fat Man, David Wood and Hogan and Gem, but your comments were so funny, especially in light of what I have written in this comment.

Respect (Sorry if I haven't appeared to have shown it, but I do).


p.s Can you give us true evidence that Keith Moore backed out of his original view?

Gem said...

Brianman,

Oh yeah yeah.. I just have to believe that you are 18... while you dont know that I am only 12 years.

so silly...

minoria said...

The way I see it is that,for argument's sake,accepting that the Koran has real scientific evidence not known for hundreds of years later,that IN ITSELF is NOT enough to prove the Koran is from God.

AND MIRACLES IN OTHER RELIGIONS?

Some 10 years ago many COW STATUES in HINDU temples began drinking milk by liters and liters.Would a Muslim then say Hinduism is true?

THE KORAN SAYS NON-BELIEVERS DO MIRACLES

When Moses went to Egypt the people of the Pharaoh also did miracles yet they were not with God.

More is required,because Satan also has SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE.I say the OT prophecies that coincide with him are additional proof.

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

Minoria,

Cow statues drinking MILK? Beyond hilarious. Real cows don't even drink milk. LOL! That's a funny story. Please send me the link to where you found it.

As for brianman, gentlemen, he clearly has a lot to learn without a doubt. If you choose to acknowledge him, might I suggest a different tack.

Brianman, I detect in you an attitude that is unsettled. Only Jesus can forgive you of your sins and make you whole. And then you will have peace.

I am praying for you.

frency varghese said...

Probably he should read hindu vedas. Vedas were written even b4 christ. it has medical teatments for many ailments, has indepth maths, ship building technologies, may be when he reads vedas he will convert to hinduism.

Brianman said...

I swear on my life I am 18 and I have only walked into the world of theology months ago. I am what I said I am.

Muslims believe that Muhammad pbuh possessed scientific knowledge anyway which is God inspired.
Remember Muhammad pbuh gave scientific accounts?

Tabari? Thats not even an authentic hadith, you are giving sources in which people are known to lie about, where truth is mixed with falsehood.
You spread many things from all of these early historians who gather their sources from anywhere, you don't care how weak the chain of narrators are or anything like that, you just bring in anything to attempt to reduce the credibility of Islam - Your excuse? It's from an early historian! But you don't take into account the crucial things that Muslims do when telling the truth from the falsehood.
There are some people who editted hadith to make Muhammad pbuh sound like a typical prophet from the O.T, and I'm sure there are weak narrations that do the opposite and overpraise him too - after all, you know that some hadith and some accounts in biographies were so weird, that it did lead people to believe that Muhammad pbuh was a trinity with God and Ali lollollol So even if Muhammad pbuh did say certain things which are in Tabari, then muslims do believe that Muhammad pbuh is inspired anyway.

And you are going by the assumption that Muhammad pbuh and people around him authored the Qur'an my cousins, but everyone around Muhammad pbuh had a different style to that of the Qur'an in their 'eloquent poetry' type thing, and they still couldn't create something of the like though, and even the people opposing Muhammad pbuh knew it was the truth from the words and style. Just 10 verses like it, why can't anybody do it? even with the help of jinn OR/and demons or/and the rest of mankind whatever, besides God. Muhammad pbuh was just an illiterate caravan trader, he couldn't go to people around him, they couldn't even match the literary miracle.
So anything contained in the literary miracle is indeed a miracle, just like a reverend said that the Qur'an contains miracle after miracle, referring to the literary miracle. Who is Muhammad pbuh supposed to go to to get the Qur'an, it can't be from Satan, Satan just can't drive out Satan - I don't know of any religious book that emphasises that satan is more detested than in the Qur'an - so whatever is in the Qur'an can't be a product of the human mind. (But still you believe that this literary aspect of the Qur'an doesn't prove it's a miracle and stuff).

No I'm not shattered by this Tabari thing hahaha
It's just impossible, because you are assuming that men could compose a book of it's like. When it's clear that they can't or else we would have seen it. No one before Muhammad pbuh or after him has matched 10 verses like it. So whatever is in the Qur'an is most certainly from God.

Please don't create another thread about this response I'm giving you, that's just disrespectful to me. I don't speak for Islam, I'm just giving a little response based on the certain angle in which I'm coming from.

I sincerely believe you should talk about this, not with muslims like me who, only has only had a mere 'interest' in theological stuff for a few months now, but do what I said in the first comment please. Go to the real people who know things.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Brianman--

Thanks for telling us your age and your education. I do agree, we should be debating Muslim scholars, not 18 year olds. If you can arrange it, we'll do it.

Keep reading and learning, my friend. I pray that God will open your eyes to the truth about Islam. Amen.

Sincerely,
-Nabeel

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

The reason why your comments on answering-msulims were singled out, was due to your very bold statements and your undermining of some of those who regularly post there.

Secondly, your comments were dealt with in the way they were since this is the reaction we commonly get from Muslims, such as: the Qur'an is simply the truth, Muhammad was a simply a prophet (end of story), Qur'anic science is attested by Western scientists who are turning to Islam, you Christians have nothing to say, etc. These are all bold claims and they are actually not helpful in the debate; and it is worth pointing out what is helpful and what is not.

You questioned Nabeel and my research, not realising that I spent six months doing an entire dissertation on Qur'anic science, studying, the Qur'an, Maurice Bucaille, Harun Yahya, Osama Abdallah and others to the core, including Greek philosophy and science; I am not exactly a fool on the matter.

As to your age and limit of knowledge, that is nothing to feel inferior about, however, but then suggest that you dialogue on the details and are more careful about the statements you are making, they are not always right, such as your statement to Abdullah Kunda that answering-muslim has not proper debators; this comment of yours mislead him greatly and he quickly discovered that your statement was merely emotional and false.

However, I do not wish to offend you are portray you in any evil way, that has never been the intention, and if you feel so I apologize.

All the best with your future studies bro, its gona be an exciting experience; hope it goes well for you and you become a great doctor.

And do continue to post on here, whether you have questions or whether you disagree.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Hogan--

I commend you for tackling falsehood to the point where the person speaking it had to admit that he "has only had a mere 'interest' in theological stuff". Perhaps, now that he realizes this, he will be less bold about his position and more willing to learn.

Your brother,
-Nabeel

Fernando said...

Brother Hogan saide: «Kunde quickly discovered that (...) this site has proper debators»...

defenetely... put thate stress on "quickly"... he still does not know whate bited him: the truth...

Brianman said...

Thanks Nabeel :) Very much appreciated.

I wasn't undermining you or Nabeel lol I should have phrased things a bit differently, sorry for that.
I have seen Nabeel's intelligence in debates and it is evident that he's really intelligent. I'm not undermining either of your intelligence. But the message I tried to portray, hopefully was portrayed in the more recent comments I made.


"Secondly, your comments were dealt with in the way they were since this is the reaction we commonly get from Muslims, such as: the Qur'an is simply the truth, Muhammad was a simply a prophet (end of story)"
That is simply not the case. I am giving an intellectual reason why I believe it to be the truth. I was telling you from a literary and linguistic aspect - Because it's a consensus among non-muslim and muslim, eastern and western scholars who understand the Qur'anic challenge to be the one which Hamza Andreas was referring to, that the Qur'an has not had 10 verses matched, past and present, it emphasises a miracle, so the moment one was to accept that it is from God via rational deduction, one would also then be obliged to say what is in the Qur'an is correct, and that these so called scientific contradictions only appear to be contradictions on whatever day and age in which one lives in, and as the quality of knowledge and technology further increases, the information failure may decrease consequently, however this may not even be the case because scientists could also be wrong in their conclusions - I'm sure you would agree with this general statement.
But yes, Nabeel also understood that I am not in a position to debate this, and Nabeel knows of the sort of people who are, although he may not have any names in particular (which is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make).

It is logically absurd to say the Qur'an is from Muhammad pbuh and/or his contemporaries. It certainly makes more sense for you to say it's Satan who authored the book. You have to take into account too, that when Muhammad pbuh was trying his best to speak good words, none of his words match the Qur'anic challenge. Of course, the moment we conceive that a God is the author, it is on theological grounds, but we don't deny the existence of God, but among the scriptures which have come down, the miracle is for certain, present in the Qur'an that is being sold today.
So I found it absurd to say that I had backed away saying well I believe Muhammad is the messenger and there is one God" - because you had failed to notice my explanation.

And, having a quick skim read, a very quick read, I have noticed that you are being bias to your own view in some ways, I'll just give a very quick example. You have tried to emphasise that seeking knowledge is more important than prayer through a weak quote, when if you look at any other quote, there will be things like:

It is narrated on the authority of Abdullah bin Mas'ood (may Allah be pleased with him), who observed:
"I asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) which deed was the best." He (the Holy Prophet) replied: 'The Prayer at its appointed hour.' (Sahih Muslim: 120)
Yes, and this is Sahih Muslim, so already, just skimming through your works for literally 30 seconds where I found loads of Tabari's, I find falsehood.

I am aware that you may be giving the best possible case against Science in your presentations, however you gave away something very misleading regarding the teaching of Islam there.

So anything in science that is in agreement with Qur'an, great. But you can't be sure that it is the case in the future, and you can't be sure that it won't change in the future either.
But obviously, like all muslims we believe everything in the Qur'an to be the words of God.
We have the timeless miracle for us to experience today from the literary angle. After all that's the challenge to mankind and jinns.

Brianman said...

Do you kind of understand the angle that I am trying to get at?

Muhammad pbuh possessed knowledge - it's in the authentic hadith, but it is nevertheless a big assumption to say that he did for CERTAIN get it from all of these external sources.

Dissertation is your total independent research.

Yeah I'll come and ask questions now and again.

Thanks guys.

Ilena said...

brianman..seriously u should start reading some proper literature like shakespeare, hugo, goethe...u claim that quran is a miracle of literature. this can claim only a person who has read 1 book in his/her life and that books is quran. all stories in quran r repetitive, boring and can be traced in talmud, gnostic gospels and other books, which r work of men. and muhammad was caught here and this is evident in the quran at some places like:

8:31 And when Our revelations are recited unto them they say: We have heard. If we wish we can speak the like of this. Lo! this is naught but fables of the men of old.

u c. ppl werent stupid back then. plus.. science.. plzz.. do u know what muhammad said on how sex was determined.. its in sahih muslim. go and read it and still believe afterwards in that deceiver, who could got away with that kind of things in his time, but its a "bit" naive 2 expect from us 2 believe all things muhammad the false prophet said. its just insult 2 human intellect imo.

Brianman said...

Hogan, can you also prove that Dr. Maurice Bucaaile or whoever he is, did it for the money please?

When I said these scientists converted to Islam - I meant that they converted to Islam in the light of studying the Qur'anic accounts themselves.

Also can you please provide evidence that Dr. Moore rejects his original view anyway. On what basis did he reject his original view?

This wouldn't really effect anybodies position in Islam (I gave you my personal reason, and a very rational reason why in the recent comment).
Notice, this is not a debate, not a rebuttal, not even so much a 'response', but a mere comment.

My explanations have done a full cycle, I feel I have explained myself properly regarding this particular issue anyway. So I'll leave the research to you. Just promise to God that you won't lie, even if it is for God - in your independent research.

Fernando said...

I'm really impressed by brianman's new way off acting: I think he's starting to behave as a gentleman... good to see that from you dear brianman... what you did is already forgiven and forgoten: may our blessed God, teh Holy Trinity, bless you and your entire family...

Fernando said...

By the way: acn someone explaine me how aomeone can beliebe thate the qur'an is a litterary miracle? thankes...

minoria said...

Hello Leticia:

Thank you for the comment.Here is the info:write:"Hindu Milk Miracle" in WIKIPEDIA.There is all the info.It happened in 1995.I was wrong,it wasn't 10 years ago.First in India and then in other countries COW STATUES began drinking milk continuosly.Scientists later concluded it was due to CAPILLARY ACTION,but I am not sure of that.Check it out.

TRIAL OF THE CENTURY

On JAN 20 will be the trial of GEERT WILDERS.He is fighting for our freedom of speech and expression.A brave man,I am almost sure he will win.They want to jail him for criticism of Islam,calling it incitement to hate.God bless him.

minoria said...

Hello Leticia again:

Another site is milkmiracle.com(by believers).I also should have said,which then I was unaware of,relying only on my memory,that the MILK was generally drunk by GANESHA,the Hindu god with an ELEPHANT HEAD(you'll see a photo of Ganesha drinking milk in milkmiracle.com)and not just by cow statues.

THE BIBLE

Miracles in themselves,whether Ganesha drinking milk or the literary quality and scientific info in the Koran,are not enough.In REVELATION we even have that the ANTICHRIST has a FALSE PROPHET with him who also does great miracles,yet he is a bad guy.

Fernando said...

I've been thinking aboutte whate brianman saide: he claimed that eben iff muhammad (or who wrotte teh qur'an) repeated whate was common knowledge at the time thate cannot be the proof thate he borrowed from thate common knowledge...

lets supose thate all the people I met and know saide to me thate A=B... then lets suppose that, in a book, I writte that A=B... who woulde have guessed, indeed, that I got thate information from other people? I guess thate brianman has a point here... don't we all?

Paul Guralivu said...

I think Brianman is a muslim all the way.

Step 1:
Bold affirmations about Christianity, Saint Paul and Bible.

Prove false by facts.

Step 2:
Bold affirmations about science in Qur'an.

Prove false by science.

Step 3:
"I DON'T SPEAK IN THE NAME OF ISLAM."

Ya, right. You just followed the perfect pattern for every muslim apologist.

Brian, make a soul search.

Paul.