Thursday, October 15, 2009

Muslim Apologist Declares: "There is no minimum age for sex in Islam"

In the comments section of a previous post on Muhammad and Aisha, Osama Abdallah offers several criteria for a male or female Muslim to get married. His conclusion, however, is startling:

"So again, there is no number of minimum age in Islam, nor is the female having her first period a condition."

Osama rightly points out (as Surah 65:4 proclaims), that Muslim men are free to have sex with girls who haven't reached puberty, so long as certain other conditions obtain. According to Osama, those conditions are as follows:

1- The person "balagha ashudduh" has reached the age of physical strength. This obviously varies from person to person. A 9 or 10-year old girl might be ready for marriage, while a 14-year old might not.

2- The person (male and female) is not "tifl" (child). Again, this is more of a mental condition and it too varies from person to person.

3- The females have become "FATAYA" (young ladies or young females or young teenage females, or young women). So a female who is still a child and not a fatah (singlular of fataya) is not permitted to get married.

4- The males have reached the age of "hulum". Hulum means had an ejaculation of semen either while awake or during sleep. Boys before this stage are also not permitted to get married, in Islam.

Well, I have a challenge for Osama and other Muslims who claim that they want to defend Muhammad, since I don't believe they're really willing to defend him. Here's the question for them, and I hope they will respond clearly and honestly.

QUESTION FOR MUSLIM MEN: SUPPOSE YOU LIVED IN A COUNTRY WITH SHARIA-COMPLIANT MARRIAGE LAWS. FURTHER, IF YOU'RE ALREADY MARRIED, PRETEND FOR A MOMENT THAT YOU'RE NOT. IF YOU WERE SEEKING A MARRIAGE PARTNER, AND A SUITABLE ARRANGEMENT WITH THE PARENTS OF A NINE-YEAR-OLD GIRL COULD BE MADE, AND THE GIRL WAS INTELLIGENT AND ABLE TO DO HOUSEHOLD CHORES, WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO MARRY HER AND HAVE SEX WITH HER?

There's the challenge. Now let's see who's really willing to stand up for Muhammad.

26 comments:

Fernando said...

I beggin to wonder iff Osama is doing this on purpose... the last days he amnaged to bee the focus-point off several threads in this blogg dedicated to him entirely... hummm...

Yahya Snow said...

To correct the misinformation about the Quran (65:4),it is one of the most obnoxious lies against the Quran on the internet.

The Quran does NOT allow sex with immature girls in s65:4 or any other part of the Quran.

In fact Islamic Law is explicit and teaches us that sex can only be had by those who are mentally and physically mature.

The vile lie against the Quran (65:4) is refuted here:

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/search/label/Does%20the%20Quran%20allow%20Sex%20with%20immature%20girls%3F

It is unfortunate that some people on the internet actually believe the misinformation about Islam that is being propagated assiduously. Please do pass the link onto anybody propagating such erroneous information about the Quran so they can realise they are wrong and correct themselves. Thanks

As for Abdallah, I think he was trying to say that Islam does not have an age of consent such as modern countries (ie the UK set it at 16 years old), this does not mean he is saying Islam allows sex with pre-pubescent girls.

Islamic Law does not allow sex with pre-pubescent girls and nor does it stipulate a specific age of consent; this allows for variation amongst different cultures, similar to the current trend in the world now. It must be stressed that no culture or religion allows prepubescent sex (sex with those who are biologically immature)

...no religion that I am aware of has an age of consent set out, that includes both Christianity and Islam.

I think Abdallah was trying to get this point across but it was misconstrued or misinterpreted. Not having an age of consent defined does not mean these religions (Islam and Christianity) allow sex with the immature, let us not confuse these points, I feel these points have been confused by the individual who set this thread up.

However, I will allow
Abdallah to clarify his statements

But please do read the following article if you are confused:

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/search/label/Does%20the%20Quran%20allow%20Sex%20with%20immature%20girls%3F

May Allah save us from misinterpreting each other and may Allah guide and protect us all. Ameen

Osama Abdallah said...

"QUESTION FOR MUSLIM MEN: SUPPOSE YOU LIVED IN A COUNTRY WITH SHARIA-COMPLIANT MARRIAGE LAWS. FURTHER, IF YOU'RE ALREADY MARRIED, PRETEND FOR A MOMENT THAT YOU'RE NOT. IF YOU WERE SEEKING A MARRIAGE PARTNER, AND A SUITABLE ARRANGEMENT WITH THE PARENTS OF A NINE-YEAR-OLD GIRL COULD BE MADE, AND THE GIRL WAS INTELLIGENT AND ABLE TO DO HOUSEHOLD CHORES, WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO MARRY HER AND HAVE SEX WITH HER?"

David Wood,

You forgot to mention that ALL OF THE POINTS THAT I MENTIONED came straight from the Glorious Quran's Noble Verses
The reader can visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm for more details and ample proofs.

As to your challenge above, you obviously didn't comprehend my points Mr. Wood. The marriage would not be a pleasing one to Allah Almighty for the following reasons:

1- Socially, the girl is not ready to be a wife. Life today is too complicated and complex. Well-educated people today are losing their homes due to economic crisis. The banks are foreclosing them and they are losing everything. Life today is full of challenges and the challenges are far beyond little kids to handle.

2- There is an ever increase of violence and drugs and gangs in the schooling system. A young mother needs to be fully grown to be able to take on such challenges when raising her children. I don't think an 18-year old mother, on average could control her 9-year old son, for instance, and keep him out of this type of harm's way.

There are other points that I can't think of right now. But the bottom line is that life today is different, and hence, the marriage is not pleasing to Allah Almighty. Again, it was Allah Almighty that spoke about the children needing to be grown physically, mentally and socially.

I hope this helps.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Paul Guralivu said...

He doesn't do it on purpuse, he is just Osama Abdullah, that's all...

Paul.

Fernando said...

Osama saide: «So a female who is still a child and not a fatah (singlular of fataya) is not permitted to get married»...

so: according to you, poor babie Aisha was not, when she was 5 lunar years off age, a child because that was teh age she got married with muhammad... no waite!!! she was 15 years old butt still playing withe dolls... butt then she must habe been a person with some sort off problems for being playing att thate age with dools... hummm...

Osama Abdallah said...

"Osama rightly points out (as Surah 65:4 proclaims), that Muslim men are free to have sex with girls who haven't reached puberty, so long as certain other conditions obtain."

David Wood,

I don't know if its you who is having difficulty understanding anything here, or if you're playing games.
The points that I mentioned clearly show that many girls should remain unmarried even many years after they have their first periods.

And by the way, some girls take a very long time to have their first periods. So it is not the period that determines the age of marriage, but rather the MENTAL, PHYSICAL AND SOCIAL status of the person (male or female) that determines it. This is again coming straight out of the Glorious Quran and not from me.

And David Wood, please tell us where in the man-made false CONJECTURE that you call christianity IS THE MINIMUM AGE DEFINED FOR GIRLS?

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

"Osama saide: «So a female who is still a child and not a fatah (singlular of fataya) is not permitted to get married»...

so: according to you, poor babie Aisha was not, when she was 5 lunar years off age, a child because that was teh age she got married with muhammad... no waite!!! she was 15 years old butt still playing withe dolls... butt then she must habe been a person with some sort off problems for being playing att thate age with dools... hummm..."

I already refuted this at: http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/10/muhammad-and-aisha.html

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Fernando said...

Osama The Great Abdalla saide: I already refuted this at....

no you did not... this page is full off lies. You cannot refut true withe lies... sorry Osama... butt do not mind: Yahya Snow is on youre side... many people in this blogg (brother monoria, brother Sepher Shalom, me and others) have reffuted the lies aboutt Quran 65:4 and he still keeps on the path off lying... a fine example of what islam is, no doubt espetialy when people habe alrerady called his attention to this fact...

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/08/isna-2009-brittany-converts-to-islam.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/05/miraculous-quran-scientific-miracles.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/09/ehteshaam-gulam-proclaims-muhammads.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/06/fot-foundation.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/09/child-bride-dies-in-labor.html

p.s.: do you, Osama The Great Abdalla, accept Yahya Snow's "canonical" interpretation off your words?

Simon said...

osama abdulla

there is no reason for u or any other muslim to be hiding the filth of mohammad and the quran. Islam is being exposed using its own material.and ur reasoning and explainations r not been looked further by me as far as my studying goes.

Osama Abdallah said...

Fernando,

You never cease to be a total waste of time. But that's ok, because I am not here for you.


Not only did I blow your nonsense away and refuted all of your points at the link that I gave above, but I would like to also extend the same challenge to you that I gave to David Wood:

**************************
CHALLENGE TO FERNANDO AND DAVID WOOD:

Since Islam is false for having Aisha marry at the age of 9, then SHOW US IN YOUR FALSE RELIGION OF CONJECTURE,
as Allah Almighty calls the man-made blasphemy that you call christianity a conjecture in Noble Verse 4:157, where the minumum age for girls or boys to get married is defined?

THE BOTTOM LINE FERNANDO is that you are no more than an opinionated fool. Your entire theology and logic are based on this type of opinionated foolishness and blasphemy. Indeed, christianity is no more than a man-made lie and CONJECTURE. This is the solid Truth about the mental disease that you call christianity. Everything you charge Islam with is based on other infidels' opinions, hate, stupidity and blindness. AND THE MOST LUDICROUS THING OF ALL is that we can always find worse things in your false religion of conjecture!

You indeed have nothing and believe in nothing.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

IslamSINS said...

" ... and [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months" — al Jalalayn

(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months. ibn Abbas

Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying;

‘O Messenger of Allah, some women of Medina are saying: there are other women who have not been mentioned!’ He asked him: ‘And who are they?’ He said: ‘Those who are too young [such that they have not started menstruating yet], those who are too old [whose menstruation has stopped] and those who are pregnant’. And so this verse (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation…) was revealed”. ibn Kathir

Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old." *GAG*

This isn't even quoting the Sahih hadiths attesting to the rape of Aisha. Sex with little girls is most certainly ordained by Allah. How any sane man could find a little girl sexually attractive, passes my comprehension. I can only conclude that such Muslim males are not in their right mind. That is what Islam does; it causes brain death.

Ilena said...

"Indeed, christianity is no more than a man-made lie and CONJECTURE. This is the solid Truth about the mental disease that you call christianity. "

boo boo at christians

we re so blind and we cannot see that we should follow one witness account, become moral relativists in order to convince ourselves that mo was the best human being ever (hahahhahaha what a joke) and start praying with our arses towards sky... ya i guess that that would solve absolutely all worlds problems.

Ilena said...

"AND THE MOST LUDICROUS THING OF ALL is that we can always find worse things in your false religion of conjecture!"

another perl from a guy who thinks that mo's imaginary friend is lord of universe. so lets get sth straight, we couldnt care less what mo's imaginary friend says abt us bc he aint REAL. as simple as that.

Tania said...

@Osama,

(1) The first illustration of marriage for us was between two grown adults.

"...made he a woman, and brought her unto the man".--Genesis 2:22.


And (2)--(Matthew 18:6) is a verse against those who seek to harm young children.

Diddling a small child is putting them in harm's way, both mentally and physically. And if can't see that, well then you're just freaking bananas -- or just plain evil, either one of the two.

Dragostea said...

"Ehteshaam Gulam said...

My thoughts on Osama Abdullah are this:

He is a good person (most of the time)

He is a terrible Islamic apologist. Even I am better than him. I suggest that either he gives his website to me and I clean it and run it from now on, or he leaves apologetics for good."

In case you missed it Osama...i cant imagine how can you live with so much hate...but the peace of Jesus Christ our God will find you then you will be joyful and you will wanna share God with everyone... hope it will be sooner than later

Tania said...

Typo alert! Correction *And if YOU can't see that*

I seem to be making a lot of typing errors lately. Oh! well, such is life.

mkvine said...

That many Muslims still consider Mr. Abdullah as an "apologist" is beyond me...

leviMichael said...

again, i wonder how mrs abdullah feels...

hey osama!, ask ur wife how she feels about ur allah allowing men to have four wives or about men having sex with children.

maybe u might beat her if she answers truthfully...

Fernando said...

Osama The Great Abdallah... thankes for your always kind words thate clearly tipiffies whate islam is...

you saide: «Since Islam is false for having Aisha marry at the age of 9, as Allah Almighty calls the man-made blasphemy that you call christianity a conjecture in Noble Verse 4:157, where the minumum age for girls or boys to get married is defined»...

#1: muhammad did not marry poor baby Aisha when she was 9... he married her when she was 6 and consummed the marriege when she was 9...

#2: whate you sai is conjecture from you on whie I do beliebe islam is false... I do believe in thate (islam is false), butt nott only because off thate reallity (muhammad marrieng a 6 years old baby and making sex withe her when she was 9)...

#3: you can place many times the worde "noble" beffore everything about islam, butt thate won't make it any more noble than it is... and it is no noble at all, unless you consider "honour killings"; "killings for apostasie"; "degradating women"; "ignoring the human rights"; "forbiding freedom off religion"; "spreading by the sword"; "imposing sub-human taxes on those who are nott muslims"; and etc. "noble"...

#4: to muhhamad the death off Jesus might be a conjecture only because he did not understood anything about Christianity and only followed gnostic gospels created to support, more vividely, the divinity off Jesus and, therefore, nott accepting the possibility of Him being killed... 2+2=4 is only a conjecture to those who do nott grasp a sible tnhig aboutt maths...

#5: aboutte minimum age off consent in Christianity... Jesus saide: give to Caesr whate is from Caesar and to God whate is to God... Christians woulde accept the civil law unless itt goes against one's conscience, and in the Bible is absolutelly clear thate there's a state off consent: narriage... and there is a minimun age for getting marriage: the age of childwood... marriage is between two adults: as sister Tania clearly saide: "made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" Genesis 2:22... Adultwood is the minimum age to marriage in Christianity... so: there's no minimun age for marriage between "girls" and "boys" (as you saide in a clear lapsus linguae thate revealt your thoughts) butt between "women" and "men"...

Paul Guralivu said...

To Osama Adhullah:

It's hard to call Christianity a conjucture.
Really really hard.
Why ?
Christians never ever been in a conjucture when it came to Jesus resurrection.
Along the history from Paul(I), Ignatiu of Antihoia(I-II), Basil the Great(III-IV), Augustine(IV), and all the others HAVE BELIEVED IN JESUS as LORD(=Master of the Univers and Creator), GOD(=God) and the ONLY SAVIOR(=GOD of old testament, SAVIOR FROM THE SIN).

There was never the question if Jesus died on the cross. Because christians were telling from one generation to an other that. That was their hope. One dies so many could be born again, free from the power of Satan.

On the other hand there were people whom combined christianity with greek philosophy(not from christians) that created all types of theories, but the Church refuted them one by one.
The first books of the church were letters and apologetics.
Letters to help christians understand faith, and apologetics to refute wrong theories.

John the Damaschin refuted Islam around the year 745 when he was approached by muslims.
Whom called Muhammad a "false prophet".

Jesus is telling about the fruits of ones teaching.
Abo of Tibilisi was one of the first muslims converts that was martized for believing in Jesus Christ resurrection and rejecting the religion he was born in: Islam.
What are the fruits: well, hate towards "kaffirs", jews and christians.

Paul.

Adam said...

Peace of Lord Jesus Christ Be with you Brother Paul Guralivu.


Thank you for enlighting these Kaaba worshiphers.

Brother I would like to know about Abo of Tibilisi the muslim who rejected muhamMad.

Adam

Paul Guralivu said...

Peace of our Lord, God and Savior Be upon you too brother Adam.

The informations about this martyr of the Eastern Church I found them on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abo_of_Tiflis.

What strike me and impressed me a lot was his final words:
"On his way to the execution he thanked God for having transformed his earthly profession of a perfumer to a heavenly calling of following the "sweet fragrance of Christ's commandments".".

Paul.

Apollos26 said...

I think Osama Abdallah is one the most stupid debaters I have ever heard. His knowledge of christianity makes me having headaches. To listen to his logic and intelligence is really a torture.

I could debate this guy easily!

So glad that there are christian brothers like Sam, Nabeel, David and Pastor Joseph to address these false teachers and to present the real face of Islam. Glory be to our LORD and GOD Jesus Christ.

t_a_s said...

Well the minimum age for marriage, then sex...in Islam is puberty.

Any who transgresses this law are wrong doers.

All males and females have a right to choose if they want to marry or not...never shall they be forced...

It is the CULTURE of the eastern countries that mess things up...I personally believe that culture is a force that directs all to the coming of the anti-christ.

It's a shame that in western countries, as well as eastern countries, people choose culture over their religion...

You know what else I don't like?....God may love them more than me but still...I don't like that people decide to turn religious when they get married...or when they turn 40..

I believe the strongest ones should have faith nice and early, before they face most of the trivial tests of this world...rather than fail all the trivial tests and be like "hey, im turning religious now".

Sorry about that rant.

Al Sunna said...

Assalamu alaikum,

Nice blog, the content in this blog is very useful to the people who are looking out for islamic knowledge.

Keep_on_smiling said...

@fernando, to you and all the other people who are not Muslims on this website, I am truly sorry about the was these people treated you guys and how they dissed you're religions and hated on you guys for not being Muslims. This is not the way anyone should ever act, they should not have judged you like that, you chose what you chose to believe in and no one should ever fight with you to change that. What we should have done is answered the question with out hate and to just explain rather than fighting and calling you guys idiots or fools, once again I apologize. This is not the way true Muslims should act, it's becoming harder and harder to find them these days. I wish you all a wonderful evening no matter what religion you follow.