Thursday, October 1, 2009

Does John 1:19-21 Refer to Muhammad?


mkvine said...

Pure Ownage lol

Nora said...

Thank you, thank you, thank you for doing these shows and putting them up.

Michelle Qureshi said...

That's what I'm talking about, Wood!

ubiquitouserendipity said...

speaking of detroit,,, and HONOR KILLING

as noted on another blog, seeing as how michigan has the highest concentration of moon-god-rock-man worshippers, read: mohammedans, it was not a matter of if, but of when, another honor killing would happen in the united states.

i'm trying to identify the location of Christian honor killings, and/or Christian terrorism. i'm having a real difficult time,,, but literally everyday i read of an incident, or incidents, of mohammed inspired violence. oh the irony of the "religion of peace" being the predominant, er,,, only, religious belief system which can be identified as being the motivation behind the continuing terrorism, and family violence in society today.

may the G_d of love and light, YHVH, the I AM, remove the scales from your eyes, and may His Holy Spirit change your hearts from stone to flesh, that you may come to bow before the Throne of the G_d and of the Lamb. in Jesus' precious name, amen

Peace, in His love, papajoe

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

Sami Zaatari's Bible Challenge:

Anyone dare to do so?

Forever yours in Islam
Ehteshaam Gulam

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey EG

Don’t you feel a little shame promoting a disingenuous "challenge" to others when you won’t even answer a couple of honest questions yourself?


Anthony Rogers said...

Sam did a great job.


Zaatari is Biblically-challenged.

Osama Abdallah said...

"That's what I'm talking about, Wood!"


Are you really that desperate? Here is my brief response to the video:

1- The Jews' quotes came from Scriptures that are outside the Bible. Even the New Testament makes many quotations and references to books and quotes that don't exist in the modern-day Bible.


3- The Bible is proven beyond the shadow of the doubt to contain contradictions and errors. IT ALSO CONTAINS ALTERATIONS AND MAN-MADE FABRICATIONS.

4- Also, Jesus saying that Moses wrote about him does not mean that "THAT PROPHET" was solely him.

5- Also, Jesus saying that the Old Scriptures and the Law spoke about him and foretold the people him also does not disprove Islam. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH ANYONE FINDING REFERENCES OF JESUS IN THE OLD SCRIPTURES. Why should I have a problem? Isn't he a legitimate Prophet? So sure, he would mentioned in those books.

6- Sam Shamoun simply forced TOO MANY ASSUMPTIONS INTO THE TEXT; a text that is already corrupt and full of doubts and lies to begin with.

Therefore, I conclude that Sam Shamoun's answer is not reliable.

THERE ARE AS MANY BOOKS of the Old Testament's that were mentioned in the new Testament that are not found in your bible today. What makes you think that Shamoun's forced interpretation of the text is valid?

AGAIN, CHRISTIANITY IS SIMPLY FALSE! Keep in mind also that much of your current English translations could be translated differently, especially the key words that are faith-shaking. For ample examples, visit:

Osama Abdallah

Anthony Rogers said...

Osama, please.

1. The Jews weren't quoting anything. They were asking John questions about who he was.

2. The Jews did, as you say, make reference to three people that they assumed were yet to come, but it was shown by Sam that they were wrong in their assumptions that the Messiah and the Prophet were two different people.

3. No such thing has been proven, and even if it be granted that the Bible is contradictory and unreliable, this only serves to undercut your argument. If the Bible is unreliable, then you can't insist that the Messiah and the Prophet are two different people simply because the Gospel John says a certain faction of Jews thought so in the first century.

4. Jesus reference to Moses predicting His coming is clearly intended to draw a connection between Jesus and the Prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy 18, especially when you take into account the rest of what Sam pointed out from the Gospel of John, such as that the people concluded that He was the Prophet like Moses after he multiplied the loaves and fish and fed 5,000 people, a miracle that naturally reminded them of Moses providing food for the people in the wilderness.

5. Thanks for granting that Jesus was foretold in the Old Testament; sorry we can't return the favor and say the same thing for Muhammad.

6. Sam actually exposed the false assumptions involved in one particular line of argumentation offered by Muslims who believe that Muhammad is the prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy 18.

Since you are dropping links, take a gander at these:

Do Not Be Afraid of Him - Part I

Do Not Be Afraid of Him - Part II



mkvine said...

And YET Osama still did not disprove Sam Shamoun's argument. Even if we assume that the Prophet was a separate person from the Messiah, it still disproves Muhammad because the Jews asked John the Baptist, who is an ISRAELITE. So the expected prophet was NOT an Ishmaelite. Also, notice how Osama conveniently left out the last verse that Sam quoted which was John 6:14 "After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, 'Surely this is THE PROPHET who is to come into the world.'" In this instance, Jesus was considered the Prophet and we also know that he was an ISRAELITE. Finally, if the scriptures are so corrupt as you claim, why do you eve appeal to them to prove Muhammad as a prophet? Inconsistency at its best...

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Osama never proves anything, except for his own inability as a muslim apologist.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Does not the muslim use of John 1: 19-21 simply reveal the stupitity of muslim apologetics?

Yahya Snow said...

To the Christians on this forum...

Did you really find Sam's response sufficient? I personally felt it was very superficial and lacking in impact and refutation.

I hope to pick up on this issue, insha'Allah

May Allah increase us all in knowledge and wisdom. Ameen

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

You are gona pick this up Snow?

How on earth are you gona pick this up?

Admit you have been defeated and that this 'Ahmed Deedat attempt' to undermine the Bible is a futile attempt to support the credibility of Islam.

Oh yeah may God increase our knowledge.

However, I am sure that Shamoun would love to debate the matter with you; I am sure this can be arranged.

Fernando said...

Our good firend of ours, John Snow, saide: «I personally felt it was very superficial and lacking in impact and refutation»...

just in case you habe missed this statement... I guess it will just go directedely to our top 10 amayzing muslim statements in the cathegory "whate you said is wrong but I won't prove you whie"... maybe at number 7... whate do you all think?

Ehteshaam Gulam said...

"Osama never proves anything, except for his own inability as a muslim apologist."

Sometimes he does have good points.

Anyways Anyone want to take up Sami Zaatari's Bible challenge?

Forever yours In Islam
Ehteshaam Gulam

Anthony Rogers said...


Snow's modus operandi is to make bold claims and issue strong challenges that he has no stamina to see through to the end. Usually he will go one or two rounds, his arguments will be exhausted, and then he will throw in the towel (it usually has "misrepresentation" and "unscholarly" written on it, since those are his stock excuses for discontinuing the discussion.)

If you try to psych him up to get back into the ring to finish what he started, he will impute bad motives to you and hurl all kinds of epithets at you..."Liar" is one of his favorites, something I wouldn't object to him bringing up if he could actually prove it.

Another thing that he likes to do after issuing challenges, is to write wordy posts about how he is too busy with school and moving to reply back to those who have answered him. That's another way he likes to duck, dive, bob and weave his way back to the saftey of his corner, letting several devestating punches go unanswered.

In short, Snow would be a waste of brother Sam's time, at least in my opinion. Of course that isn't to say that Sam himself wouldn't be willing to bring in Snow as a sparring partner so he can train for the real thing when it comes along; it is just to say that Snow isn't it...the real thing, that is.

Unknown said...

i just found another part of this video series here.its by Keith truth


Ehteshaam Gulam said...

"Don’t you feel a little shame promoting a disingenuous "challenge" to others when you won’t even answer a couple of honest questions yourself?"

I admit I did say some really stupid stuff here. I foolishly fell for the traps of David Wood. I honestly thought and believed David Wood is my friend. He is not. In fact he hates me and spoke smack about me on this blog.

I tried being his friend, but he has too much of a temper.

Rather Sami Zaatari, a good Muslim Apologist has posted a Challenge on youtube:

My question and this will be my last comment on this blog, is IS ANYONE WILLING TO TAKE IT UP?

Ehteshaam Gulam

Yahya Snow said...

Semper and Hogan...

Personal attacks are not going to motivate me into entering a slanging match with anybody on the internet, you shall see my responses to actual arguents soon, insha'Allah.

I find it interesting that people actually view Shamoun as a paragon of authourity. Suffice it to say Shamoun's answer did not satisfy me. Please note, I am not one of these apologists who maintains a stance of argument despite being shown it is an inferior argument, thus, if Shamoun's answer satisfied and convinced me I would sincerely concede the argument but as it stands Shamoun's argument was far from convincing. I do plan to step up my work so I hope to include a response in the coming weeks, insha'Allah.

BTW...if anybody has Christian apologist work by CS Lewis and are willing to pass it onto me then let me know.


May Allah guide us all. Ameen

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

you said:

I admit I did say some really stupid stuff here.

I say:

There is no shame in saying stupid stuff if you are willing to learn.

There is shame in advocating a disingenuous challenge while refusing to answer honest questions that were posed to you first IMO.

I tell you what you answer my questions then we can go over the charges in the “challenge” one by one comparing our scriptures with yours. How does that sound?


Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Yahya snow,

you said:

Suffice it to say Shamoun's answer did not satisfy me.

I say:

Satisfy you about what?

Do you honestly believe that John 1:19-21 is a prophecy that is refering to Muhammad?


David Wood said...


I don't see how this can't be clear to you. The Qur'an says that there are Biblical passages about Muhammad. In a desperate attempt to prove that this is the case, Muslims point to a passage in John 1 in which a particular group of Jews seem to expect "the Messiah" to be a different person from "the Prophet." Apart from this lone passage, there is no Biblical support for the belief that the Messiah is distinct from the Prophet.

Hence, Muslims must build their case on the expectation of the Jews in this passage. But if Muslims base their case on Jewish expectation, they can't ignore the fact that the Jews also expected a JEWISH prophet. Nor can Muslims ignore the fact that Jewish expectation was often wrong, e.g. when they expected the Messiah to destroy the Romans. Nor can Muslims ignore the fact that the Jews, in the very book Muslims are quoting, eventually claimed that Jesus must be "the Prophet."

How can you not see that the Muslim claim about this passage is desperate, inconsistent, illogical, and absurd?

Anthony Rogers said...


I have Lewis' books here. Come on over and we can read them together.

Maybe then I can get you to think through the conceptual muddles involved in Tawheed, the discussion that you originally broached and just as quickly backed away from.

Radical Moderate said...

Sammi Zatari's Challange?????????

I just watched Sammi's video. I'm not sure what exaclty his challange is, or even if it is challange for that matter.

I guess he wants us to deny that there are Rapes, Incest, Murder, Canablism, slavery, etc.. in the bible.

I dont know why any bible beleiving Christian would deny such things. We are honest with our texts. Something the muslims seem to be less and less able to do. Yes there are rapes reported in the bible, Does this mean God ordains rape? yes there is canablism reported in the bible. Does this mean that ordains canibalism? For that matter show me where eating another human being is in the kosher laws. Yes there is murder that is commited in the bible. Show me where God ordains Murder?

Yes there is genocide, and yes GOD does ordain the Genocide of a grouop of people in a spefic geographic region. As a means of demonstrating and delevering his just wrath to a wickent people.

yes there is slavery in the bible and rules on how to treat slaves. A slave owner is even to be punished if he beats his slave to death. Can any muslim show me in the Quran where it says a slave owner is to be punished if he beats his slave to death?

Well it looks like Sami's challange was not much of a challange after all.

Radical Moderate said...

I guess Sammi's real challange is for christains to be as dishonest with our texts as muslims are with theirs. Something we christians just will not do.

mkvine said...

David Wood, have you ever debated Yahya Snow before? I think that would be a good debate.

minoria said...

Thanks for the information about JOHN 6:14 where the people say "this is THE PROPHET..".I had never made that connection before.I have added it to my notes.


Unless one shows documentary evidence there is no reason to think the JEWISH religious leaders(Pharisees and Levites)thought of "the prophet like Moses"to be anything other that a JEW.

In JOHN 1 they could be referring to DEUT 18 when they use THE instead of A prophet.


The NT here just gives a CITATION of somebody else's opinion that could be true or not.It is not a PROPHECY from God.


If the NT had a man saying "REINCARNATION is true" does that mean it is?No,it's a mere citation.

Again,as I said before,if we went back in time,I really don't think those same Pharisees and Levites would agree they were talking about a possible Arab prophet.Until THAT can be shown then Mohammed is simply not in JOHN 1.


In Judaism another interpretation of DEUT 18 is that the "prophet like Moses" means simply that "in each generation" God raises up a JEWISH prophet to guide the Jews.

Thus Jeremiah,Isaiah,etc were each the "prophet like Moses" of their time.It is possible that in JOHN 1 the THE PROPHET is just the prophet like Moses of that generation.

minoria said...

I have not seen SAAMI's video but from the comments I have a general idea.Regarding the charge of genocide of the Canaanites,Muslims fail to notice that in the OT God's punishment is CONDITIONAL.If there is true repentance,then there is forgiveness.


It is astonishing Muslims fail to notice the story of RAHAB of Jericho.She was a Canaanite,yet she helped the Jews.Why?She recognized they had God on their side.

Technically speaking she should have been killed also and her family,yet it was not done.Now if the Canaanite leaders had made their peace with God then I see no reason why the order would not have been abolished.


The case of Abraham and Sodom and Gomorra,where he petitioned God to spare the places if 50 good men were found,it was granted.Then he continued asking,it went down again:40,30,20,10.Again Muslims seem to miss such details.

Osama Abdallah said...

"....In a desperate attempt to prove that this is the case, Muslims point to a passage in John 1 in which a particular group of Jews seem to expect "the Messiah" to be a different person from "the Prophet." Apart from this lone passage, there is no Biblical support for the belief that the Messiah is distinct from the Prophet."

David Wood,

Muslims are wrong, very wrong, when they give legitimacy to the bible.
Quoting the bible should be limited to only showing inconsistencies and contradictions in any given subject, WHICH ONE CAN ALWAYS FIND PLENTY OF THOSE IN THE BOOK. So in other words, if one wishes to investigate Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, in the Bible, then one can point out verses that do indeed point to a Prophet from Arabia or another Prophet beside Jesus (ISAIAH 42 FOR EXAMPLE, and others). But never should the book or gospel that is being quoted be given any legitimacy. To me, the whole bible is full of lies. But despite this, we find plenty of places where it talks about a Prophet from Arabia, and many things that directly support Islam. Perhaps, this is the Light of Truth from underneath the ashes.

I invite the reader to visit: to see some of those verses.

I also strongly believe that the bible is badly mistranslated in many places, especially many key places. I strongly believe that there is a big conspiracy going on, much like your 9/11 load of lies that costed Afghanistan and Iraq millions of lives.

Osama Abdallah

Anthony Rogers said...


To answer you in terms of your own (unargued) assumptions, Isaiah 42 offers no support for the expectation of an Arabian prophet, much less for Muhammad, for at least two reasons: 1) the Bible is unreliable and full of lies; and 2) the Bible has been mistranslated.

To say that it can be trusted when it (allegedly) speaks of an Arabian prophet is quite simply arbitrary. If the Book is generally unreliable, both for reason of textual corruption and because of mistranslation, especially in “many key places,” then you need to show us why it is to be relied upon in places like Isaiah 42, something that is presumably a key place since you wish to hang your hat on it.

Furthermore, unless you want to argue that the book of the prophet Isaiah is actually the Torah or the Gospel, a bizarre idea I wouldn’t put past you to promulgate, then this is all beside the point; the Qur’an puts the onus on you to find confirmation for your prophet in the Torah and the Gospel, not the book of Isaiah. That’s why the whole discussion of John 1 comes up: that passage is found in the Gospel according to John, and it is obviously related to the prediction made by Moses in the Torah.

Unless you have an answer for the problem created by John’s Gospel for understanding “the prophet” to be someone other than the Christ, then you have to go fishing for another prediction in the Torah and the Gospel for something else to pin your hopes to. (By the way, the question that was put to John about Elijah, the Christ, and the Prophet, was generated by the Sadducees (q.v. 1:19, “priests and Levites”), who, as a group, rejected the idea that anything other than the written Torah was binding on Israel, so the notion that they got the idea that the Prophet was someone other than the Christ from another source is problematic, on top of all the other reasons that Sam and David have already mentioned.)

Unless Muhammad is prophesied in the Torah and the Gospel, then your faith is in vain; Muhammad’s coming is not prophesied in either; therefore, your faith is in vain.

Dk said...

Yahya said:

"I do plan to step up my work so I hope to include a response in the coming weeks, insha'Allah."

Yeah just like you were going to respond to my points and shamouns article in rebuttal to the argument you stole from NAdir. heheheeh. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK "Apologist of Islam"

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

I am totally at loss as to the effectiveness and logic behind Sami's Bible challenge. Its like the typical, classical scence in a court room where the accuser forces the witness the answer 'yes' or 'no', without any further explanation.

As to Sami's challenges there are many yes's but there is also an additional explanation behind each of them.

If he is only interesting in the 'yes' then by all means let him remain a muslim.

This is like asking: does the Qur'an contain teaching on slavery, rape of slaves, fornication, instructions how to dissolves your son's-in-law marriage and marry his divorced wife, invasion, persecution, crucifixion and cutting hands and feet off, racism and prejudice, rape of female captives, etc.

If the answer is 'yes' and it is, I will never become a Muslim and the Qur'an should then according to Sami's own words be keept from our children and the society as a whole.

Yahya Snow said...

Dear All..

When did this segment take place? ie date of the programme

I am in the process of completing a response article to Shamoun's claims in this video and would like a date to add to the article...Thanks


David Wood said...

This just in from Sam:

Please pass this on:

Yahya, please make sure to call in the show this week so we can see how far you get with your reply. And if you don't want to call in then please finish your 'rebuttal' before Firday and post the link since I promise to dismantle it by the grace of the Lord Jesus live on the air in order to expose just how shallow and utterly futile the Muslim attempts of trying to defend Muhammad truly are, especially when the Holy Bible exposes him as a false prophet. Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father!

Yahya Snow said...

Hi David..

I hope you are gaining a fresh insight form your new vocation as a messenger :) (Joke)

I could not resist, howvever if we harp back to my posting; could you please give me the date this segment was broadcast so I can include it in my article as extra detail. I would appreciate that. Thanks

As a word of advice, please instruct Shamoun to be a little more conservative and less hostile in his 'messages' he sends me. I am not willing to limit myself to the usual shameful depths of communication certain representatives of Christianity AND Islam are currently immersed in. They only wind up doing their respective faiths a dis-service. Sadly my own bias as a Muslim had previously rendered me as an individual who shunned away from speaking out against ill-manered people representing my faith of Islam, that is something I am no longer willing to do and I feel I am duty-bound to speak out against abrasive styles of communication.

I would also ask you to have a quiet word with Shamoun and ask him to calm down with the abrasive and over-zealous only leads him into error and undermines his belief that he is full of a being (the Holy Spirit) which he views to be God. It seems interesting that the "godly one" (Shamoun) seems to take a rather un-holy tone and style. Food for thought!

Of course, if you are unwilling to have a word with him then at least edit his messages so they sound more scholarly and sophisticated.

As for calling him; tell him I will do better than call him...

btw...I am looking at Shamoun's comments from an analytical view point and am not really arguing for the Muslim claim concerning John 1:19-21. John 1:19-21 does not impact me either way and Shamoun will see that my work will be difficult to counter as it is of an anlytical nature. Suffice to say, I am only human and could be wrong, Shamoun may counter it easily...if this is the case and his argumentation is valid and makes sense then I would concede my argument as it would be the scholarly thing to do. The question is, would Shamoun do the same if he views my work as containing good merit (which I believe it does)?

PS...Please do give me the date that I require...



May Allah guide us all and look after us and our families and solve our difficulties. Ameen

Anthony Rogers said...

You have to love it when a person confesses someone else's (supposed) sins, as our dearest Yahya has proven he is quite adept at. When he says he disapproves of Christians and Muslims being less than conservative in their tone, he is either hoping that he can can justify himself by condemning others, so that he comes out looking good by comparison, or that everyone will be too busy looking at those he is wagging his finger at than to look at his "less than conservative tone," which has been only too frequent on this blog.

Notice also, after saying Sam's response was "superficial" and "lacking" and "far from convincing," such that he said he was going to write a response, Yahya has now both backed away from trying to defend the thesis Sam was responding to (i.e. John 1 supports the common Muslim claim that the prophet is an Arab who comes after the Christ), and has lowered the bar from an utter "refutation" to something that Sam "might counter easily."

Yahya, it sounds to me like you have all but conceded that Sam decimated the Muslim claim here, otherwise you wouldn't have to argue a different point, one that doesn't address the stock in trade Muslim claim, and that you are already doing damage control.

Don't worry. I perfectly understand. I didn't expect you to address the relevant issue, and I also didn't think you would say anything that Sam would not easily be able to answer.

Fernando said...

Yahya Snow: boring...

no intelectual depth; no capacity to dialogue; attacking imediately other one's belifs (about the Holy Spirit); incapable of a forward dialogue; trying to reduce one's horizon to a so called "analitic" as is there were exegesis thate was not analitic; countinously lowering the barr of is claims...


Yahya Snow said...

I have just produced and article and a youtube video response countering Shamoun's claims.

The article and video response highlight the reasons why Shamoun's argumentation is viewed to be unconvincing.

The link to the youtube video (which subsequently contains a link to the article):

The article is on my blog, just click on my username. Thanks



Anthony Rogers said...


I must say, I really didn't think you had it in you. As I am sure you can see now, it can be very satisfying to see a project through to the end. I hope you won't deny yourself that pleasure again, and that we can expect to see you be as diligent to follow through on your other committments.

All that aside, I just thought I would chime in to let you know: don't bask in the glory of your "refutation" for too long; I have it on good authority that a response to what you wrote is already in the works.

May the Lord Jesus, the eternal Son of the Father, the Prophet, Priest, and King of His church, and the only Savior of Sinners, enlighten your mind to receive the truth.

Anthony Rogers said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yahya Snow said...

Hey Semper


I had a few days off from my other academic commitments, which has left me lagging in that department so I need to catch up...

I can honestly say I was due to ask you to post a link to your questions so I can address them and I hope to address the alcohol issue (by responding to Shamoun's response to Ahmed)...but do keep reminding me about the alcohol issue as it is not at the forefront of my mind

But, yeh please post a link to your qs and I hope to answer them briefly as I seem to remember you answered my qs briefly too not laugh at my accent or oratory abitlities, i am more into article writing.

May Allah help us all to be respectful to each other whilst we wrestle with these issues. Ameen

Anthony Rogers said...


Good news: see here


Only islam is true religion from creator...please study all religion to prove it...which religion is logic & me..