Thursday, May 14, 2009

Was Jesus Crucified? Wood vs. Abdallah

David Wood vs. Osama Abdallah
May 9th, 2009
Coastal Community Church
Virginia Beach, Virginia


Opening Statements




Rebuttals and Conclusion


61 comments:

The Fat Man said...

Osama
In both debates you said a prayer words like,

"Remove the impediments of my speach so they can understand me"

After listing to both debates I'm thinking you should come up with another prayer because its obvious that Allah isnt answering this one.

Even David Said at one point "I have no idea what he ment" during his first rebuttle."

Also you ramble and stammer an awful lot.

The Fat Man said...

Osama you said in your rebuttle, "that son of god meens servent of god not bilogical son of God."

You do realize that christians do not believe inspite of what mohamed and the quran says, that God had a "BIOLOGICAL SON".

Yes Son of God does meen servent of God, so who would the Mesiah be but a servent of God. The term applied to Jesus speaks of the relationship that the Father has with the Son. not in terms of Biological prodigeny.

Gods nature can not be truly understood. However we can understand the love that a parent has for their child. The love a father has for his son, and son for his father.

Either way once again the Quran and Mohamed are wrong. Christians do not believe that God had sex or produced a gentic biological child.

The Fat Man said...

Anyone know what Osama is talking about when he said the book of James says Jesus had Quote "EVIL DESIRES" un quote.

The Fat Man said...

Ok i have conclused that the Quran is Miraculous. The only Miracle of the Quran is that people actualy believe it.

Thanks To NAK for that Tag line. :)

Osama Abdallah said...

Visit: www.answering-christianity.com/satanic_verses.htm to see the verses that I referenced regarding Jesus' temptation.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Bartimaeus said...

After watching the debate between David and Osama I have some strong advice for all friend Osama. “Osama do not debate. Your presentation was laughable, you were inconsistent in the presentation and your rebuttals. You demonstrated a total lack of understanding of the debate subject. I would suggest before you engage in any more debates that you spend time researching the topic.”

David you did a fantastic job. It was painfully obvious that Osama was in over his head. Osama was willfully dishonest and the way he be treated the Scriptures. What is so tragic about this is that Muslims think that Osama’s arguments are meaningful. It is also obvious to me that the god of this world has blinded the eyes of many Muslims. Truly, Islam is diabolical in its nature and that Mohammed was not a prophet sent from God but rather a deceiver and operated under the spirit of Antichrist.

Bartimaeus said...

Osama

I have gone to your wed site and if designed to decieve rather than enlighten.

The Fat Man said...

Osama, posting a link to your site wich just repeats your acusation as well as other vile and offensive things about the word of God. Is not siting a source. Sir you made the claim that the book of James says that jesus had "EVIL DESIRES" please either give us Chapter and verse, Or SHUT THE (insert explitive of your choice here) UP.

Sorry David and Nabeel but sometimes I just have to say what often goes un said.

Bartimaeus said...

Osama

In a debate a rebuttal IS NOT go to my website for the answer. And I have gone to web site and is full of deceptions and lies.

Bartimaeus said...

David I have a question is Osama a revert? I got that impressions listening to the debate.

Osama Abdallah said...

"I have some strong advice for all friend Osama. “Osama do not debate. Your presentation was laughable, you were inconsistent in the presentation and your rebuttals. You demonstrated a total lack of understanding of the debate subject."

And I suppose your Bible's sources and unknown authors, unknown dates of when they were written, and unknown places of where they were written are not laughable?
I never claimed to be anything special. I have my weaknesses and I am always improving and learning.

As to whether I am a revert or not, no, I was born a Muslim. But you've seen how some loud mouths attack other Muslims. Nadir Ahmed is quoted here on this site saying that Shabir Ally is almost an apostate. Well, I was unlucky enough to pass the point of apostasy to some of them. Visit: www.answering-christianity.com/dumpster_section.htm to get the whole story.
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Fernando said...

Mie friend Osama Abdallah,, I also wente to your site to see where inn thee book of James it's saide Jesus had "evil desires", and I could not find anything... bie the way: I hoppe the problems your site had with virus are resolved... my anti-virus are oute off date...

And Osama: whate do you mean that not knowing who and when wrote the Bible is problem? Who and whenn wrote the textes you habe in your site? We don't know thate, so...

And the use of sources bie the Bible is nott a problem since christian's concept off revelation is not the same as muslim's... the problem of using sources existes onlie with a qur'an that you, muslimes, beliebe to be eternal and without error...

Oune again: glad to see you back here, eben when you are, again, redirecting us to youre site full off errors that, eben when we explain them to you, you refuse to rectifie... may God blees you!!!

Bartimaeus said...

Osama

The subject of the debate was “Was Jesus Crucified?” not if the apostle Paul was a Gnostic, and he wasn't by the way.(If you would take the time to read Paul's epistle to the church of the Colossians you would see that Paul was refuting proto gnosticism). Or on if Jesus had sinful desires and he didn't. However, as I have already stated the debate was on the crucifixion of Christ. As I have stated you failed miserably to rebut what David had to say. You engaged in Islamic “Anachronistic Isogesis.” You deliberately and with the malice twisted and distorted every Scripture passage that you dealt with. That I find reprehensible. However; what else can many Muslim do. Isaiah 53 written 700 years before the crucifixion of Christ is one of the strongest proofs of the validity of the Bible that you so despise.

The only evidence that Muslims have that Jesus was not crucified is one verse in the Quran. This one verse goes against all the historical evidence. Osama for your information the crucifixion of Christ is the most attested to event in ancient history. The only sources that you may have would be those who would claim Jesus did not exist (and if that were the case not only would Christianity be false but so would Islam) and the Gnostic sources (that believed that Jesus did not have the physical body which again would make Islam a false religion).

In the debate and in your post you went at great lengths to point that the scriptures cannot be trusted because we do not know the author. Well I have a question for you when it comes to the Quran whose word do we have that the Quran has come from God. We have only Mohammed’s word for it. In fact, at first Mohammed thought he was possessed by a demon. Osama; Mohammed had no witnesses that his so-called revelations came from Allah. Of course; there are the traditions and narrations but all those come more than 150 years after the fact. Osama you would do well to remember something that James White told you “inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument”. In addition, my friend were you ever inconsistent in your arguments.

The Fat Man said...

Osama, I'm still waiting for your sitation from the book of James where it says Jesus had "Evil Desires". Site Chapter and verse. If you can not then you need to appologies to christians for the intentionaly deceptive, and offensive statement. Also you will need to at the very least change the page you posted to reflect your lie.

Bartimaeus said...

Fat Man

Don't expect Osama to apolgize anytime soon. I think I understand teh Muslim "logig" here. James said they when one is tempted he is not temped by God but by his own "evil desires". However; Osama is totally unable to use context or let the bible speak for itself but rather twist the scripture to and prove his own silly arguments that are rampent in his deceitful wed site.

IslamSINS said...

The site, "Islamweb", has a discussion about the crucifixion and "what does the word 'Messiah' mean in the "Hol-E-y" (abuse of spelling, mine) koran. This is a direct quote, and I could not have invented anything as ignorant as you find from the Islamic answer sites. If this is their "scholarship", we are dealing with intellectual amoebas. While, prima facie, it's funny, Islam's ignorance should make us all weep. This sort will only be healed through prayer and fasting.

"It was stated that he was named the Messiah because his feet were flat (the arch of which is flattened so that the entire sole rests upon the ground)." Good grief, I think this is a new level of Islamic stupidity. I had to read it eight or six times to make sure my sight wasn't failing.

Some alternate explantions of the "substitution theory", from the same site: Jewish Titanus, or a nebulous *someone* made to look like Jesus.

Islam Q&A (another "brilliant" source of Islamic Imam "wisdom") states that "there is NO text of Revelation that tells us the details of what happened on that day, but there is a saheeh report from Ibn Abbaas ..." which has our Christ going into a house where several of His followers had gathered, and He implored one of them to take His place, one volunteered, was caused to look like Jesus, and "Eesa was lifted up to heaven."

If "Saheeh" means that something has been rigorously authenticated, who did the rigorous authenticating of this account, since Muhammad and his followers were 600 years AFTER the death of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

What is meant in 3.55, when "Allah" says, "Ya Isaa, inni mutawaffiqa ilayya ..."? Does it mean "O Jesus I shall cause you to die and I will raise you to myself", and is it in the present tense? I do not speak Arabic, but heard this being discussed by some Arabic speakers in a PalTalk room a couple of years ago. I find no agreement about what this Arabic means, but would love a consensus from Islam (which seems unable to reach a consensus on much of anything).

Though I see great improvement in Abdallah's style (I've avoided his debates for years, due to his blatant hatred and ignorance of truth), his content remains eternally wrong, dragging him to hell, if he doesn't repent of Islam's lies, and turn to the Christ who was, indeed, crucified, He died, was buried, and defeated death by raising Himself from the dead. Just as He declared He would.

I speak for myself only, no other, when I give this opinion: If you're debating anyone but Shabir Ally, your opponent will have a brain about the size of an M&M, just not nearly as appealing.

KeithTruth said...

Great performance brother Wood. Osama was soundly refuted. A clear victory for Christianity. Praise Jesus. Your first rebuttal dismantled his opening statement and from there it was nothing but sinshine ahead. Good job professor.

Osama,
I see that your website claims that the trinity was invented at the council of nicea. Do you want to debate me on that issue since Sami Zaatari refuses to do so? He made the claim but won't step in the ring to defend it. Will you?

keith
www.keithtruth.blogspot.com

Bfoali said...

Hey Fatso, when are you planning on having any public debates? I cant wait to see how proper you talk, maybe Osama stutters but thats better then panting on stage infront of hundreds of people.
Attack Osamas arguments not his speech.

The Fat Man said...

Bforli
he doesnt have any arguments to attack. But its obvious he says the same prayer and allah aint answering.

And Bforli just to let you know, its not the clothes that make me look fat its my fat that makes me look fat.

The Fat Man said...

POSSIBLE VIRUS ALERT OSAMA's SITE.

After I visited Osama's site. I got a virus "Spyware 2009" Trojan.Vundo.V its malware that disguiese itself as a spyware detector. AVG didnt catch it, niether did Ad Aware. I had to download malwarebytes anti malware to get rid of it.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Bfoali said:
I cant wait to see how proper you talk

Just so you know, "proper" is an adjective, and syntactically you would have needed to use an adverb, i.e. "properly". I found it ironic that you were talking about speaking properly by speaking improperly, so I had to comment :-)

Semper Paratus said...

Fat Man,

Regarding the possible virus alert:

I went to Osama's site. Sure enough, there is a virus there. His site was full of stuff promoting Islam. Reader Beware.

The Fat Man said...

Semper Paratus
This want a virus alert, this was a virus infection.

Bfoali said...

well nabeel 2 be on-est i sawed me frend be-ing at-tacked 4 know reezon, soe i dec-ided 2 see if da att-acker cud out spoke os-samah. y did he hav 2 make a ru-ede com-ment lik that?

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Bfoali said:

well nabeel 2 be on-est i sawed me frend be-ing at-tacked 4 know reezon, soe i dec-ided 2 see if da att-acker cud out spoke os-samah. y did he hav 2 make a ru-ede com-ment lik that?

Well played, my friend :-)

Semper Paratus said...

Fat Man,

It looked like an "ALERT" to me, but perhaps Allah made what you actually said appear differently to me. And to think, he even made it appear in all capital letters.

Nakdimon said...

Man I had a blast! The comment from Osama that did it for me was in his opening statement that the authors of the New Testament misunderstood the Tenach. That statement was after listening him totally manhandle the texts of the Psalms and Isaiah.

very entertaining. It's times like this that I wished I was actually at those debates to challenge the Muslim apologist on these ludicrous claims.

Nakdimon

Fernando said...

I just finisehd, at least, to watch the full debate for the seconde time...

#1: great worke, ounce again, Doctor Wood... you're a blessed person, and we, Christians, are a blesses people to have amoungue us susch a person willing to putt it's talents in the service of God our Love: manie thankes indeed!!!

#2: Osama Abdallah... whate cann I say thate has nott been saide before? If I was him, eben being much older than him, I would not bare to leave my house fore a mounth after susch a disgracefull performance...

one thingue is for sure: shoulde Osama be a Christian I could do much better since he did not had to create "theories" out a Pandora boxe off nonsence like is the qur'an... never the less, he has a great posture in his chaire...

Osama Abdallah said...

In the debate, I forgot to mention a very important point on Isaiah 53:9:

Isaiah 53:9 says that he made his grave with the wicked and the rich. According to http://scripturetext.com/isaiah/53-9.htm:

"in his death"
is also a false translation to the Hebrew Mawth. At the worst, it should be translated as "in death", making the word a symbolic one as further confirmed in the Hebrew lexicon:

"in his death
maveth (maw'-veth)
death (natural or violent) [notice not "his death"]; concretely, the dead, their place or state (hades); figuratively, pestilence, ruin -- (be) dead(-ly), death, die(-d)."
(http://scripturetext.com/isaiah/53-9.htm)

So in his death here is symbolically referring to his execution trial and not necessarily his physical and literal death. This is further proven in Young's Literal Translation of the verse:

9 And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2053&version=15;

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Sepher Shalom said...

Osama said: "Isaiah 53:9 says that he made his grave with the wicked and the rich. According to http://scripturetext.com/isaiah/53-9.htm:

"in his death" is also a false translation to the Hebrew Mawth. At the worst, it should be translated as "in death", making the word a symbolic one as further confirmed in the Hebrew lexicon:..."
Here is the Jewish Publication Society (1917 edition) translation of Isaiah 53:9 -

"And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth."I suggest you also take into account the JPS translation of Isaiah 53:8 -

"...for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.You're going to have to be much more clear about what you are getting at with this verse Osama. I for one certainly don't get what you are taking issue with.

If someone is cut off from the land of the living (v8); someone's grave is made and they have a tomb (v9), what does that tell you about said individual?

Sepher Shalom said...

After watching the debate it seems to me that someone must have given Osama the wrong debate topic. Apparently he was under the impression that the topic was "Is the crucifixion prophesied in the Tanach"

Osama Abdallah said...

"If someone is cut off from the land of the living (v8); someone's grave is made and they have a tomb (v9), what does that tell you about said individual?"

Jesus Christ today has a grave and we all (Muslims and Christians) agree that it is empty. So, your reasoning doesn't prove that Jesus MUST HAVE HAD TO DIE. It is easily refuted when one sees Isaiah 53:9 as a symbolic verse, which it clearly is when looking at it in the light of the ample other verses that I gave that CLEARLY SAY THAT CHRIST WON'T GET CRUCIFIED.
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

During the debate, David Wood said that it was satan who said the verses about the Angels saving Jesus from striking his foot against a rock. In other words, it is satan who linked Psalm 91 to Jesus and not GOD Almighty. But however, when we look at Jesus' reply to satan, we find Jesus saying:

Matthew 4:5-75 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"
7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

So here we see Jesus accepting satan's quotation of Psalm 91, and further told satan: YES, BUT IT IS ALSO WRITTEN THAT YOU MUST NOT TEMPT GOD.
David Wood is refuted. Crucifixion is a lie, and so is the trinity as well.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Osama Abdallah said...

Sepher Shalom,

Isaiah 53:9 also says that he was ASSIGNED A GRAVE, which again goes in perfect harmony with the fact that Jesus never made it to the grave, but rather it was only assigned to him. And again, today, Jesus' grave is empty.
Nothing is Isaiah 53 proves that Jesus was crucified and died, especially when we read it in light of Psalm 91, 116 and 118.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Sepher Shalom said...

Osama,

You can't have verse 9 without verse 8. Verse 8 says "...for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due"

It is actually you that is easily refuted. You need to quit abusing the text of the Bible. Your assertion here is really quite silly.


Once again I return the question to you: If someone is described in the following 3 ways, what is the plain meaning of the text -

1) cut off from the land of the living, 2) a grave with the wicked, 3) a tomb with the rich

Sepher Shalom said...

Osama said: Nothing is Isaiah 53 proves that Jesus was crucified and died, especially when we read it in light of Psalm 91, 116 and 118.Osama, before it's even neccessary to deal with your gross misunderstanding of all 3 of the above Psalms, I would like to make a simple point:

Historical information proves that The Messiah did die by crucifixion. Your Quran tells you that Yeshua is The Messiah. Historical facts tell us Yeshua died on the cross. You are simply playing a game with Scripture because you know the overwhelming historical record absolutely trounces you if you deny it.

Watching you in this debate it was quite obvious that you were debating "Does the Tanach predict crucifixion". While I fully believe it does, here is the obvious point you are missing -

You have created a red herring. The reality of the crucifixion is not predicated on the Tanach predicting it. This is why David defeated you by a wide margin in this debate. All of history attests to the crucifixion. To deny it is to say we can't possibly know anything about any historical figure. It is that certain. Your opinion about what Psalms and Isaiah say does not trump investigatible historical facts.

nma said...

Osama Abdallah said:

Jesus Christ today has a grave and we all (Muslims and Christians) agree that it is empty.
What is the proof that it is the grave of Jesus?

About Jesus's tomb:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1593893,00.html

A Muslim answer about Jesus's toomb:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_Jesus%27s_tomb


Osama Abdallah said:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,and they will lift you up in their hands,so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" Why is this about crucifixion? Nowhere in the Bible it is written that this verse about crucifixion. It is about the Devil testing Jesus by telling Him to jump from the mountain, not about a future event which is crucifixion. Had Jesus jumped from the mountain, angels would have lifted Him up in their hands.

The Crucifixion was the main part of the God's plan to save mankind from the bonds of the Devil and sin. That is what NT is mainly about . That whole purpose of Jesus's life on earth was to fulfill God's plan of atonement and redemption of mankind from the bonds of the devil and sin, not to just do some miracles, some preaching and just vanish from the cross as Isa in the Quran did. It required a pure person, free from sins, to fulfill God's plan. Hence the virgin birth. But the virgin birth of Isa in the Quran is totally purposeless, just like Allah's deceiving Isa's followers and enemies alike. Why was the need of a prophet like Isa born of a virgin? He could have done all those miracles and preaching without the virgin birth.

Osama Abdallah said...

All,

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm#11_or_12 to see my latest additions that refute David Wood on whether 11 or 12 disciples witnessed Jesus' resurrection. Luke 24 and Acts 1 and much more verses clearly clash with each others on this.

Again and again, the Bible's historical accounts are proven to be false and contradicting to each others. I sincerely apologize if this sounds offensive. My intention is not to offend you, but to help you see the Divine Truth of Islam.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm

Osama Abdallah said...

Thank you Mr. Wood and Mr. Qureshi for allowing my post for my latest update. Your kindness is greatly appreciated.

Yours truly,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Yahya Snow said...

To The Fat Man (that is his handle so I do not want people accusing me of insulting him)

You said:

Osama
In both debates you said a prayer words like,

"Remove the impediments of my speach so they can understand me"

After listing to both debates I'm thinking you should come up with another prayer because its obvious that Allah isnt answering this one.

Actually, for your information...I have followed Osama Abdallah and have noticed an improvement in his delivery and presentation. You must remember English is not his first language and allow him time to improve...and he is improving (all praise is due to Allah)...you must also be worried because he has STRONG points and arguments...I urge all Christians on here to go to Osama's website (www.answering-christianity.com) if you are sincere to get a fuller picture of his argumentation...if you are sincere rather than insulting him!!!

PS why in the world has this blog got a cheapshot against Osama on the frontpage in the form of a poll (best/worst Islam defender)???
How about showing your opposition some respect?

Also Osama in my view is the BEST defender of Islam as he has produced the most work and has pioneered Muslim-internet-apologetics.

Good Brothers such as Sami and Bassam would not claim to be better than Osama because they know the truth of his efforts and know Osama is sincere and they were set up via Osama's hardwork and foresight.

btw Fat Man...you claim to have the 'Holy Spirit' in you (you believe this to be god)...yet no Christian claiming to be filled with this 'god' has ever been able to meet the Muslim challenge...so forget about the prayers Osama makes as you believe that Jesus (the man you believe to be god) was calling God to save him when he was on the cross but he was not saved (my God, my God why have you forsaken me...ring any belles?)

btw...the Muslim challenge is bring a quote from your Bible where Jesus (pbuh) says he is god...

Yahya Snow said...

To The Fat Man (that is his handle so I do not want people accusing me of insulting him)

You said:

Osama
In both debates you said a prayer words like,

"Remove the impediments of my speach so they can understand me"

After listing to both debates I'm thinking you should come up with another prayer because its obvious that Allah isnt answering this one.

Actually, for your information...I have followed Osama Abdallah and have noticed an improvement in his delivery and presentation. You must remember English is not his first language and allow him time to improve...and he is improving (all praise is due to Allah)...you must also be worried because he has STRONG points and arguments...I urge all Christians on here to go to Osama's website (www.answering-christianity.com) if you are sincere to get a fuller picture of his argumentation...if you are sincere rather than insulting him!!!

PS why in the world has this blog got a cheapshot against Osama on the frontpage in the form of a poll (best/worst Islam defender)???
How about showing your opposition some respect?

Also Osama in my view is the BEST defender of Islam as he has produced the most work and has pioneered Muslim-internet-apologetics.

Good Brothers such as Sami and Bassam would not claim to be better than Osama because they know the truth of his efforts and know Osama is sincere and they were set up via Osama's hardwork and foresight.

btw Fat Man...you claim to have the 'Holy Spirit' in you (you believe this to be god)...yet no Christian claiming to be filled with this 'god' has ever been able to meet the Muslim challenge...so forget about the prayers Osama makes as you believe that Jesus (the man you believe to be god) was calling God to save him when he was on the cross but he was not saved (my God, my God why have you forsaken me...ring any belles?)

btw...the Muslim challenge is bring a quote from your Bible where Jesus (pbuh) says he is god...

Sepher Shalom said...

Yahya said: "btw...the Muslim challenge is bring a quote from your Bible where Jesus (pbuh) says he is god..."

***BREAKING NEWS***

In a discovery sure to shock the world, the before unknown of "Injeel of Eissa" was discovered today. It is signed by Eissa himself, and has a photograph of him signing it attached to the papyrus scroll. In Eissa 5:17, the Messiah is quoted as saying, "I am G-d. Worship Me."

In other news....Muslims around the world collectively say, "So what. Your Bible is corrupted anyway."

Royal Son said...

Yahya: Here just a few passages for you to get started.

Isaiah 44:6

6 "This is what the Lord says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Revelation 1:17-18

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

And here:

Daniel 7:13-14

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

14 "He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Mark 14:61-62

61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Hmmm, Jesus is claiming to be the Son of Man, the one prophecied in Daniel would would be worshipped by all nations, and having an eternal kingdom. He also says He will come on the clouds. You might like to check these passages too from your Qur'an

Surah 89:21-22

"Nay! when the earth is pounded to powder, (21) And thy Lord cometh, and His angels rank upon rank,"

Surah 2:210

"Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? But to Allah do all questions go back (for decision)."

Royal Son said...

Just as a little followup , according to Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Number 577, Allah will take a form, a shape on the day of resurrection.

Source: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/076.sbt.html

Sepher Shalom said...

Osama said: "Again and again, the Bible's historical accounts are proven to be false and contradicting to each others."

Well that's an interesting opinion you have there, and an interesting claim you have made. However, I would like to see you show me where any of the portions of the Bible intended to document the historical event of the crucifixion are disagreeing about whether or not Yeshua was crucified. Good luck =)

All you have managed to do thus far, is provide your opinion on certain Tanach passages, and suggest there are details the Gospels and Acts disagree on. Even if you demonstrate the above, it does not overcome the historically investigatible evidence that the crucifixion occurred.

Osama said: "see my latest additions that refute David Wood on whether 11 or 12 disciples witnessed Jesus' resurrection. Luke 24 and Acts 1 and much more verses clearly clash with each others on this."

It's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand if you happen to have the opinion that some verses "clash", because the plain fact is that all the sources in question agree to the fact that Yeshua died on the cross.

Naved said...

Wow osama i really liked your presentation and your website its just amazing, i visit it everyday.

Columcille said...

Muslims are incapable of common sense, or argument based on reason. It is an irrational faith based on submission to the message in the Quaran. Notice how Abdallah's whole argument is made with aggressive expressions of "proof" texts made out of context. He does not have a systematic approach. He is intellectually throwing stones, where as Wood is leveling the house from top to bottom.

Abdallah does not make any appeal to:

1. Extra textual evidence.

2. History.

3. Reason.

brianman said...

Well, take a look at the following links....in the following order:

http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/isaiah53crucres.html

http://www.thejesusmyth.com/essays/isaiah-53-more-mel-gibson-than-messianic

http://answering-islam.com/abdullah_smith/isaiah_53_part_1.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/katz_crucifixion_rebuttal_1.htm

Islam is the way of life, I discovered that.

Brianman said...

Sorry...I haven't discovered that ISLAM is the way and the life yet.

But I did based on those rebuttals.

Austin said...

I particularly enjoyed it when Abdulla complained that the Jewish historians were recording the crucifixion 50 years after Jesus' death. He then used the Qu'ran as a source, which as we all know is dated at least 700 years after Jesus' death.

Reading the Qu'ran as it is - God is a deceiver for making the Jews and Christians think that he died. Allah is therefore responsible for Christianity.

More to the point - how does Abdullah know that Allah isn't deceiving him with the Qu'ran? If he deceived once he can surely do it again.

To use the phraseology of the Qu’ran : Perhaps Muhammad was not inspired, neither was he a prophet, it was only made to appear so to them.

coolest said...

coolest


Osama obviously get his ass beat up.
Is that the same from answeringchristianity?

Rahul said...

My God...... what are these responses from muslims, is that man posting from "Osama Abdallah" Is that really him ? :O I really cant believe he is like this, he is exactly like those muslims whom we generally deal with. Hilarious , Mind blowing. I seriously suggest all of you muslims stop letting him debate :D he gotta be kidding :D LOL
-
and hey that Breaking News of Ismalic Injil and autograph of Jesus saying I am God worship me, was excellent :D

donna60 said...

Is it me? I find myself getting quite endeared with Mr Abdallah. I really believe he is working as hard as he can to fight for what he believes in. Loyalty is a quality I value. One of these days he is going to be a great member of the Lord's church, and I can't wait to call him brother

donna60 said...

I would like to know who our Heavenly Father, who despises lies, and calls Satan the father of lies, put up as a trick substitite for Judas, who was found hanging in the Potters Field.

Khizar said...

Both David and Osama have overall good arguments here BUT i want to conter one point made by David in particular, NAMELY that how can so many people(acting as eyewitnesses) be deceived. WELL one only need to watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
Such and other such tests have shown repeatedly that eye witness accounts can be extremely unrealiable. HENCE the use of DNA and other such methods in addition to eye witnesses.

choice said...

i have been paying alot of attention to the debates in the last 2 months.let me tell you, god is among us all when we are in agreement, what is so called achieved here is nothing, because it is oviouse that the same sentences are repeated over and over as if you havnt left first base. why then do we need to go out and prove that jesus is the one, all you need to do is read the bible and do not change or alter anything from gods word you will not find a flaw in it. i can only imagine that if jesus preached to steal something or kill someone or rape someone that all muslims would have something to cry about. yet it is mohamard that did all these things and they say it was justified that all these things are now gods sent? let me tell you that the muslim heart is set in stone, they will not flex, they will not understand nor belive in anything logical. and that they work underground. i say this because no one with half a brain will belive that their are whales in space and god had to hammer the mountains down to make the earth stable. and that the sun comes out of a dam well, or sperm comes from my rib area. listen to what your saying, absolute ignorence, you are talking about god here, not someone that runs around with super glue or a hammer while building earth, it is common sence that god has given you to judge what is right and what is wrong, what the freak is a whale doing in space enjoying the view? i mean whats next he glued the stars with blue tak? and that he is holding up heaven so it doesnt fall down on us. are you serious, god can create you the world everything you see and not see, but he has to balance the world on a whale and hold up the heavens or it will fall. or shoot an object at a demon because it is trying to steal something from heaven, or enter heaven, you ignorent people. its oviouse to see why the demon would attempt this because god that has infinite mercy, knowledge, love and compassion, ect would not know the demon was comming to heaven so thats why the stars or objects or comets what ever was put in place to fire at them as a safety percaution. osama you dont have to speak to be laughed at, all i have to do is read one sentence from the quran. that the devil is stuck up my nose, or that when i yawn the devil can enter, you better not open your mouth at all, the list goes on. is that really what you belive, listen TO THE WORDS comming from your mouth. you cannot decribe god as logical nor ask why did god do this or that. science is a false when it comes to religion, might as well belive we came from monkeys or apes, the big bang theory. is a THEORY, even i can come up with one of those, we are nothing but dust. who are we to ask why god did this. we are all sinners. god is perfect, the biggiest problem that ive seen over time is the repedative mis interpitation of the holy bible and what it was actually meant for. it was meant to teach us the loving ways of god, it was meant to teach us about temptation and how if you ask for gods help at those times he will answer your prayer, honestly i dont know how you people sleep at night. weather its osama or other muslims trying to change or decifer what god JESUS CHRIST said. he died on the cross in order to pay the biggiest price for our sins, being a just and perfect god, he cannot contridict himself and take us who he loves to heaven and not permit the devil in aswell, so basic so easy to understand and very important when talking about god. unlike muslims who say their god is a deciver. i would rather die than one day say that. a book is not a miricle. god our saviors jesus mircles are. ive heard that morhamard flew on a dam donkey in the middle of the night, no one witnessed it only the donkey, and that is a miricle, compared to jesus? islam is the way of the devil, knowing that apparently muslims dont belive in possesion its funny because all over youtube you have so called sheks or what ever you call them trying to remove devils from people.

choice said...

as a matter of fact, in egypt where abuna makari is at the moment, there in his church there are thousands of muslims attending and trying to belive. they also are possesed. from making deals with the devil, (HEJAB), one of my friends who is muslim we grew up together had the biggiest heart and was like a brother to me. he now is in a mental hospital because of his faith in islam. it was not untill he turned 26 that he got into his religion and followed what the quaran told him. that one day he woke up after apparently hearing vocies (alla) decied to kill his mother and sister because they were non belivers (cafer) in what hed learnt trying to kill another two people outside his house 1 was a police officer, from his own mouth he told me he doesnt regreat what he did, and doesnt care if he dies as he was doing the work of alla. wake up you ignorent people as the fires of hell is unknown, it is not like a dessert or two breaths from the devil or some crap like that. may god help you all really open your eyes before it is to late. may jesus christ have mercy on you and others that do not belive. gods will be done.
thank you sherief

Satish said...

The re-discovery of the Ark of the Covenant, and the implications to the Jewish people regarding the discovery of their Messiah's blood on the mercy seat are profound (fulfilling prophecy). (Rom. 11:25-29 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.' As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."
Zech. 12:9,10 "On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.") Mourning perhaps because their eyes are finally opened to realize that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was indeed who he claimed to be, the Son of God and the Messiah?
(fulfilling prophecy). (Rom. 11:25-29 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.' As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."
Zech. 12:9,10 "On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.") Mourning perhaps because their eyes are finally opened to realize that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was indeed who he claimed to be, the Son of God and the Messiah?

ibrahimali said...

STUDY OF DEVELOPING SOCIETIES.

we conducted a survey that why christians and muslims are not cooperating with each other in the world?we found the following answers.

1.Christians are well educated and research scholars to research each and every issues brought to them,but unfortunately satan occupying not to apply their mind to analyse that how Jesus was killed and crucified when God has given five favours.out of it he brought forth dead.

2.Jews are not accepting our prophet Jesus that they tried to kill Jesus,but christians are following Jews and depend upon their advice.

3.Christians fail to realise Matthew 14:23 and Quranic verse 5:14 and 9:31 that And when he had sent the multitudes away,he went up into a mountain apart to pray.if Jesus is God or a part of God then why did he pray?

4.Christians are not interpreting Matthew 27:11-14 to mean that Jesus wanted to die on the cross for the redemption of mankind and for the forgiveness of their sins.if so,then why did he ask to turn away that cup from him?why did hr cry out while on the cross?

5.Muslims are accepting Jesus as prophet and his mother Mary,but Jews disbelief and uttering against Mary,a grave false charge(that she had commited illegal sexual intercourse).

6.Muslims believe that Jesus was not killed and crucified by the Jews as revealed in the holy Quran verse 4:157 and 158.

7.Most of Muslims in the world are not educated and innocent.some leaders and organisations are misleading young Muslims to fight with other communities as Jihad which is not recognised in the Quranic verses 5:32,22:40,45:14 and they are termed as perverts in accordance with Quranuc verse 2:99.

8.Christians failed to interpret Quranic verse 4:157 and158,5:14,5:82,7:158,
57:27 and 28 and 61:6 read with John 14:15-16,15:26-27,16:5-8,read with Matthew 10:16.

9.In the above said submissions,it is humbly submitted that our Christian pastors,fathers,monks,apostles,priests and ministers may be pleased to analyse the issues in the interest of unity and peace in the world to avoid all kind of natural disasters in the world as per the Quranic verses 17:16 and 28:59.
please visit the website www.goldenduas.com
Your Success,
U.Ibrahim Ali.

Shapur II said...

Osama Abdallah said...
In the debate, I forgot to mention a very important point on Isaiah 53:9:

Isaiah 53:9 says that he made his grave with the wicked and the rich. According to http://scripturetext.com/isaiah/53-9.htm:

"in his death" is also a false translation to the Hebrew Mawth. At the worst, it should be translated as "in death", making the word a symbolic one as further confirmed in the Hebrew lexicon:

"in his death
maveth (maw'-veth)
death (natural or violent) [notice not "his death"]; concretely, the dead, their place or state (hades); figuratively, pestilence, ruin -- (be) dead(-ly), death, die(-d)."
(http://scripturetext.com/isaiah/53-9.htm)

-------------------------

Well, this debate is long over, but i just watched it an read the comments. Now i found this comment and have to say something about it.

I suppose Osama Abdallah has not the greatest of old hebrew skills, as i just passed my final test (hebraicum) and can say by the first look at the text, that he is completely wrong with what he is saying.

Lets take a look at the text:

וַיִּתֵּן אָת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ וְאֶת-עָשׁיר בְּמֹתָיו עַל לֹא חָמָס עָשָׂה וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו

the word is: בְּמֹתָיו
bə·mō·ṯāw
it derives from the root מות (dying) and the noun is מָוֶת meaning death

basicly the "bə" just means "in" (it can mean something like: in, with, on, through... ) it just shows a special case of relation between things, persons etc.
The Bible starts with just the same "bə" when saying "In the beginning..."

The ending of the word is יו
It is the ending for a possesive personal pronoun (i dont know if i translate that correct, i just made a 1 by 1 translation from the german words)
and it is the ending for the 3rd person singular, BUT for a plural word.
So the correct translation would be
- in his deaths -

I personaly would translate Jesaia 53,9 with a direct to word translation like this:

And he was given his grave with the wicked (ungodly, evil, guilty)and with wealth in his deaths, because he did not do violence(did not do wrong) and no deception was in his mouth.

btw. עָשׁיר means wealth or rich


I hope this clarifies this part of the Old Testament a bit.
Btw. there are much better arguments to make this part shine in a different light. One can argue it is not a prophecy for Jesus... but thats a different topic. I just wanted to make the wording clear.

ujil najar said...

hmmmm........... good oe