May 10th, 2009
Jackson Memorial Baptist Church
NOTE: We had some problems with the cameras in this recording, so we have multiple angles and a few seconds of missing video (less than a total of 10 seconds). Sorry for that, but here's what we got.
Crossfire and Conclusion
There is a mistake on the heading-- Instead of Osama Abdullah it should be Farhan Qureshi.
Wow-- this is a very difficult topic, which I will never debate. This topic is way too big, too complex, too difficult. I like short and simple topics like Was Jesus Crucified or Who was Jesus-- not over complicated topics such as this one. So my advice for Muslim Apologists is unless your really, really good on this topic and an accomplished debater-- stay as far away from this topic as possible. I know I will.
Say what? How is it way too difficult, complex, and big to debate "Who was Muhammad?" but not "Who was Jesus?"
Guys, is it just me or is Islam the religion of Magic Spells? For everything they have a compulsory magic spell.
Muhammad or the true prophets is "pbuh"
Allah is "swt"
when they do something its "bismillah arrachman arrahim"
when they are done its "shukrullah"
when they speak about the khalifs they go "ra"
Taken all these things into consideration and considering also all the supersticious elements with regard to prayer, ritual cleansing etc, all these compulsory spells look like hocus pocus to me.
I was wondering if you can make a post about the sources of the Satanic Verses you mentioned in the debate and put them online. That would help a lot in the research on this indictment against Muhammad.
May be a good idea. I dont know if it will be a lot of work (which I can imagine) but if you find the time to do that, it would be fascinating.
To Ehteshaam Gulam
How is it way too difficult and complex, dont know your prophet very well to talk about him .. your ready to talk about who was Jesus but when it comes to Muhammad you run away ..thats sad
Muslim by Choice: «dont know your prophet very well to talk about him?»...
I'm absolutetie sure he does, and it's juste because he does so that, wantting to be an honest apologist, he admites so... he does not want to falsifie ebidences, creatte boggus argumentes, ignore sources or incurre in the wrath off other muslimes just because he's being honest...
with friendes like you, Muslim by Choice, I'm sure doctor Ehteshaam Gulam is praying right now: «God, set me free off mie friendes that with mie enimies I can gett along»...
p.s.: juste to our friende Ali: I'm not Ehteshaam Gulam...
A few problems right off the bat with Farrans opening statement.
He first said about Mohamed's eneimeis "His enemy's were blood thirsty and wanted to slaughter the man."
Mohamed lived for 12 years wtih the Meccans preaching his message. True the meccans were peeved, upset, and even outraged. However he lived for 12 years. If they were trully blood thirsty and wanted his death they would of killed him. Also the meccans pleeded with him, tried to bargin with him, tried to bribe him even. Sorry Farran your statement not only contradicts history, it also contradicts common sense.
Second Problem with Farrans opening statement. he said
"Army of Thousands marched with horse's and cammels and artilery."
First I'm going to assume you did not meen artillery as in Cannon and Mortor. Instead you ment seage weapons like the Trebuchet or The Ballista. I dont think the Meccans possed this type of weponery only because of the lack of tree's needed to build these weapons. However I could be wrong.
But here is the main problem. Your statement implies a vacume. You make it sound like Mohamed Ran to Medina, and then the Meccans pursued him with a army.
You left out the years that Mohamed robbed meccan carvans "Ghazwa's". You left out how he held meccan merchants for ransom. You left out a significant chunk of islamic history leading up to the Meccans finaly getting fed up with being robbed, and there citizens held for ransom.
You also left out how the Meccans interupted there caravan routes to avoid the muslim meraders. The Meccans were merchants, buisnessmen, and war and conflict is bad for buisness.
Muslim By Choice,
Why would you find what Ehteshaam is saying to be sad? I'm convinced that Muslims learn why they should not be Christians before they ever learn any type of meaningful history of Muhammad's life. If you go up to the average Muslim and ask him to explain the objections brought up by David, they probably wouldn't even know what David was talking about. Whereas the average Muslim, especially living in America, is prepared to give a whole list of reasons for why they think Christianity is wrong.
It is sad in the sense that Muslims are taught arguments against Christianity before they even learn their own faith.
David, Nabeel, and everyone else. Might I sugest a series of books.
Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, by Dr Michael Brown. Its a four volume set, soon to be a 5 volume work.
It really does hammer home the Jewishness of the bleifs of the early church. There is also few great sections on the Tiuion nature of God in the Old Testment, as well as rabinical sources.
You can get the entire set in Libronics.
I have refuted much of David Wood's arguments at:
You can also visit:
The reason why I'll never debate this topic is ITS WAY TO BIG. Plus I am not sure How to Debate it. there are too many topics which are directly related to this topic of Is Muhammad (p) a true Prophet of God. Look at all the issues related to this topic:
alleged scientific errors
are Arabs ishmaelite
Attributes of Allah in the Quran
Prophet Muhammed(P) in the Bible
Prophet Muhammad(P) and the Making of Wills
What the Quran says about the Bible (corrupt or uncorrupt)"?
Alleged Pre Islamic influences
Is Islamic peaceful
What the Quran has to say about Jesus and the Crucifixion
communication of ants in the Quran
Islam's view of Paul
Prophet Muhammad(P)'s Night Journey and Ascension to Heaven
concept of Tawheed in Islam
Jesus or Muhammad(P): Who is God's True Seal of Prophethood?
Alleged variant readings
Is their any idolatry in Islam
The Birth Narratives of Jesus in the Quran
Prophet Muhammed(P) and the making of wills
What is the Holy Spirit in Islam
Definition of Trinity in Quran
The Truthfulness and Integrity of The Recipient
The Literary Challenge
The Internal Evidence
The accurate description of embryology in the Quran
Is their shirk in Islam
who is the The Angel of the Lord in Islam and Christianity
Did Waraqa Ibn Nawfal invent Islam
Objective evidence for the inspiration of the Quran
Hadith/ Ibn Ishaq stories
How do we determine a true or false Prophet according to the Bible
Did Prophet Muhammad perform miracles
and Much more.
So you can see Semper and Muslim by Choice, this topic is way TOO BIG. So that's why I believe its wise not to do this topic. This topic is a huge trap for Muslims-- and I am not going to fall for it. Nadir Ahmed wisely decided not to debate the topic and I am going to do the same.
In this debate at the very end of your opening statement you mentioned something about a man named Abdullah ibn sar or something to that effect. You said that he used to edit the Quran. What sources do you use for this?
Dear Ehteshaam Gulam... thankes for youre honest actitude towards this subjectes...
butt do not forget the problem with Muhammad's moral behaviour (sexual habits; paedophilia; murder; lying;...)...
Never the less: your truthfull actions and wordes are making me want to habe you in a special place in mie heart... God bless you!!! May your worke of apologist mai take you to learn about the true Christianity...
I appreciate the time you took to type all that, but it avoids the point of comparison necessary to address what I was driving at.
I could just as easily draw up a list of all the issues that could be brought up if the question put to the debaters was "Who is Jesus?" as opposed to "Who was Muhammad?". I'm sure you could do the same if you stopped and thought about it for a moment. Both questions are just as broad.
In light of this, why are you willing to debate the former and not the latter? That was the point of my question.
Perhaps you should start looking for people to debate each one of the issues related to Muhammad that you presented above? Individually they are not "too big" of a topic.
A lot of those look like interesting individual topics. Quite frankly if you defended those issues successfully and convincingly I would have far fewer numbers of objections in my view of Islam.
The Fat Man,
Great recommendation!! Dr. Michael Brown is a great resource for understanding the consistency of Jewish theology presented in the Messianic Scriptures (aka New Testament). I haven't read that book yet but am familiar with his work.
Most of the stuff brought up by Muslims about Christianity "inventing" things inconsistent with previous revelation are silenced and made to look utterly foolish when you see the explanations presented from a Jewish context.
Grace and peace Nabeel. I hope you have fun at your graduation!!
Osama I see your back, reposting your malware infested website. Man it took me a hour in a half to clean that crap off.
Sir you have a master degree in Computer science. you know your website is infested, and yet you still post it. There is no excuse for that. I'm a computer nerd, Bacherlors degree in computer science and I practicaly got the alphabet in my proffesional signiture with my certs.
Sir, I'm getting the feeling this is a deliberate infestation. There is no excuse comming from a man who has a masters in computer science.
I am so angry do to the BS I had to do yesterday to clean your crap off my system. Your lucky it was on a laptop that I only use as a scratch pad.
Sir this goes beyond christian v's muslim, beyond Islam v's chrsistianity. This is NERD TO NERD. have some pride, have some quality. As a muslim you may not have pride or quality in your content or your agruments, but at least as a nerd you can have some pride and quuality in your system.
Sir i do not like making threats on the internet, but if you do not clean you crap up, i will make your website my personal project.
CLEAN YOUR CRAP UP. Did I say that already, let me say it again CLEAN YOUR CRAP UP.
I meen it, ask David Wood what happens to people I make my personal project.
Oh one more thing; I am still waiting for the reference to were the bible says Jesus had "Evil Desires" PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
Here is an article which may prove beneficial - http://answer-islam.org/AllahMoChangingSuras.html
//Mohamed lived for 12 years wtih the Meccans preaching his message. True the meccans were peeved, upset, and even outraged. However he lived for 12 years. If they were trully blood thirsty and wanted his death they would of killed him. Also the meccans pleeded with him, tried to bargin with him, tried to bribe him even.//
Fat man how often do you open up your history books? Many times the prophet pbuh escaped from deaths.
//butt do not forget the problem with Muhammad's moral behaviour (sexual habits; paedophilia; murder; lying;...)...//
fernando heres a tip: dont follow zakaria botros. I wonder why people think he's such a great scholor on the christian faith when all he does is bash islam. I'm surprised how a scholor who takes Jesus' words to his heart has the ability to insult our faith. And i find it even more surprising that he has a significant amount of followers. Does that mean they also like to hurt and put down other beliefs? I ask are these people good examples of the Christian faith??
about pedophillia. I 've taken alot of info from answering christianity and i've added a bit of my own.
First off he did not approach her. Aisha's parents offered her to muhammed pbuh. aisha was already engaged before to another man but it fell through. Tell me, how come asha's friends were happy for her? why did they wish her good luck? and why didn't the prophets enemies even bring this up? because it was a common practice. in hadiths we see aisha was always happy with her marriage. Tell me how come NO ONE objected to this? The ONLY objectors are the anti islamics of today. EVEN SCHOLORS admit this was normal for that time.
Age was one of the main reasons too. People lived MAXIMUM 40-50.
Doens't really matter the age of the man, but 100 years ago the age of consent was 10 in north america and in europe. http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm
it was considered highly shameful if you didn't marry by 12. Even in europe this same thing applied.
When Canada was being formed, it was divided into upper and lower. The government PAID 10-13 year olds to HAVE CHILDREN to increase the population. THERE WAS ZERO objection to this by ANYONE. So if you call muhammed pbuh a pedo, your only insluting the enemies of islam of that time and the arab culture, many others and ALONG with your own.
what makes a pedo?
"Low self esteem. Many pedophiles, although by no means all, do not have a great sense of capacity for adopting a sexual demeanor towards adults or those of their own age or older. They feel unhappy and fearful at the prospect of sexual behaviour with adults and hence turn to children due to the fact that they are unable to have the strength of personality to seek adults for sexual demeanor. When considering treatment therefore it is important to establish and develop a higher sense of self-esteem in such individuals."
Well muhammed pbuh was also married to other women. And he never suffered from low self esteem. So he can't be a pedo.
"Lack of impulse control. Many pedophiles find it extremely difficult to deal with the impulsive nature which inclines them towards sexual behaviour to children. They simply cannot control their need for engaging children in sexual practices. They might be said to suffer from an obsessive-compulsive condition. Here again treatment would involve developing better impulse control and of course redirecting the sexual inclinations."
Yeah muhammed pbuh didn't have any sexual activity for 2 years after his marriage with her. Lack of self control does not apply to him. Also the month of ramadan dicourages sex. so why did he practice this if he had no self control?
"Denial. Many pedophiles deny there is anything wrong with having sexual relations with children and many will in due course paradoxically deny having carried out such practices should they be confronted. It is vital to change the attitudes of such individuals much as in the lack of empathy with their victim."
Yeah muhammed pbuh never denied having sex with any of his wives.
"History of previous pedophile activity. Many pedophiles have carried out minor or major acts of pedophile behaviour in the past and this has led to habit as well as the obsessive-compulsive nature of the act towards children. It is vital here to promote alternative habits i.e. in attitudes and demeanor of sexual behaviour with adults."
Muhammed pbuh never had any history of child marriages. And all of his wives were adult and there is no evidence of him being obsessed with children.
"Poor family relationships - many pedophiles have come from families that are in chaos or are lacking in stability. This has led them to view sexual behaviour with children rather than adults as acceptable especially if this has been practised upon them by a member of the family in the past. Although it is difficult to reverse what has happened in the past through discussion or attitude changes it is vital that insight must be gained by the individual into how his/her pedophile activity originated and was developed through the family dynamics."
Even though he was an orphan he was very close to his family members and said himself whoever didn't interact with family members should be denied paradise.
"Low IQ - there are pedophiles who have low intelligence but by no means all are in this category. Where this is the case appropriate therapeutic efforts must be made to develop understanding of what they are doing wrong and what they must do to change."
Even though he was illiterate (nearly all were in his time as education wasn't tradition), he was a very bright boy and a great tradesman to go along with his wise personality.
"Loneliness, depression and relationship needs - this particular trait is associated with low self-esteem and lack of empathy with the victim. Many pedophiles are lonely individuals who live on their own and have found it difficult to establish relationships with adults, especially for sexual purposes. Some suffer from psychological problems and even psychotic illnesses. Here intensive treatment and monitoring is in order."
Muhammed pbuh was never lonly or depressed when he married aisha. he had many friends and companions as well before and after the marriage.
"Having been themselves sexually abused - many pedophiles have themselves been sexually abused in the past by adults. They merely imitate what they experienced and continue their activity considering it as appropriate since it was done to them."
The prophet pbuh was never abused in any way by anyone. So this doesn't apply to him.
I think the answer may be that Ehteshaam is (understandably) thinking of the question "who was Jesus?" from the Quranic/Islamic perspective, which makes the issue rather simple. The complex issues (as he probably sees them) are on the Christian side, and thus they're not the worry of the Muslim debater, at least not to the same extent.
In other words, if the question in his mind is "What are the things that I have to take into consideration if I want to truthfully represent the entirety of what my religion has to say on this topic?" then obviously the issue of who Jesus was is relatively straightforward in comparison to who was Muhammed.
Semper, MuslimBy Choice--
Who was Jesus is a simple topic because it focuses on just one thing-- who was Jesus: Human or Divine? That's it. Islam says Jesus was a human (which there is tons of historical evidence for) while Christianity over exergerates Jesus position (that he was Divine in any way). So thats why I say this is more easier and simple.
Meanwhile the Prophethood of Muhammad raises way to many sub topics which are very difficult to deal with in a debate due to time limits. The opposing side brings up so many issues its extremely difficult to respond to all these issues raised. So that's why I see this as a trap for Muslim Apologists-- the goal is to dump all these issues and sub-topics on Muslims giving them less time to respond.
Recently Mary Jo Sharp asked for a debate on the Pagan Myth Theory. I find this very odd. The topic is too short to begin with, there really isn't much to debate and it also seemed like a trap (there are only two Pre-Christian Gods like Jesus), which is why I refused not out of disrespect for Mary Jo, but because its really not debatable. Now if she wants to do Who Was Jesus-- that's a good debate.
Ehteshaam is quite right that this is a big topic. Since the Quran is claimed to be Muhammads only sign, "is the Quran miraculous" seems to be a sub-topic for that debate.
I don't see that either question is more or less complex than the other. A person could just as easily bring up all sorts of sub-topics related to the identity of the Lord Jesus Christ: Did the Jews believe the Messiah would be divine? Did Paul corrupt what Jesus originally taught? Who authored the Gospels? Are the Gospels reliable accounts of what Jesus said? What about Jesus sanctioning pagan practices, cheating on his wives with a black rock, and wearing women's clothing? (Ooops, sorry; that last question doesn't apply. I guess if it did I would then think the topic was way too big to debate. In any event, I was obviously thinking of someone else.)
If you were thinking along the lines of what Haecceitas suggested above, then your stance would perhaps make a little more sense to me. As it is, since that isn't what you were saying, it doesn't. But that is fine, I am certainly not trying to twist your arm to debate a subject you are understandably uncomfortable with. Heck, I wish more Muslims were uncomfortable with the fact that there are so many charges that can be laid at Muhammad's feet that makes defending him too complex, and that they would accordingly shrink back from doing so.
In the end, I just don't see the disparity, Ehteshaam, but you are certainly free to hold otherwise.
ali... who's Zackaria Bothros (I eben googled for itt...)? is he a christian? is he telling lies about islame? it's because being them lies thate they're insulting? could you presente those lies here? unless you do so teh onlie one around here insulting other people (thate zakaria botros) is nott a christian...
Aboutte paedophilia... ali... its seames you're justv trying to build sand castles bie: a) trying to make some invalid comparisones (v.g., mie point i); b) making posible false claimes (v.g., mie point iii); c) choosing this magazine (which... bie the way... I could not access in the web...) and not thate one, neither a solid medical publication, perhapes juste because the one you presented ofers a mental horizon incompatible (in your opinion) to Muhammads actitues (v.g., mie point xi)...
i) can you presente anie ebidence that in europe the age off concept was 10 juste 100 years ago? And whie are you making comparisons? Iff anie person in enie age was noticed to habe marriage a 6 years old baby and habing sex with a 9 years old girl the poin would be present eben there… butt that’s nott the case here…
ii) do you realise the difference between 6 and 10?
iii) where's any ebidence that in Muhammadas time peolpe onli lived, maximum, 40-50 years? (you habe to present hard ebidences thate no one lived more than thate... or you're speakin in average terms?)
iv) where's the evidence that marrying with people as young as 6 was normal in Muhammad's time?
v) do you understand the difference between habing sex with a pre-pubescent girl and an post-pubescent girl?
vi) woulde you admite thate ladie Aiesha was 9 when she consumed her marriegae with Muhammad?
vii) woulde you say thate at thate time she (ladie Aiesha) would habe alreadie stared menstruating?
viii) as a matter of fact, does not the qur'an (surah 65.4) allows man to habe sex with pre-pubescent women?
ix) iff so, would does not be consistente whithe the fact some surahs mighte habe been revealed in order to allow some deeds to Muhammad?
x) now... let's change to our daies (since you qouted some magazine) would you not say thate, in anie case, habing sex with a pre-pubescent girl is wrong?
xi) according to the world medical catalogation off mental deseases, a paedophilus is «someone that has comited child sexual abuse»... period... then, the mental condition called paedophilia, is «a form of paraphilia in which a person either has acted on intense sexual urges towards children, or experiences recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about children that cause distress or interpersonal difficulty. The disorder is common among people who commit child sexual abuse... would you not agree thate, with these criteria (and I remember you, ali, it was you thate tryied to make analogies to our daies...), Muhammad was a paedophilus eben iff he, as far I can say withoute better knowledge, did not suffered from the mental state called paedophila?
xii) butt then... Muhammad standed 3 years without consuming the marriege (we're not debating the motives to this marriage... and Muhammad could habe adopted the girl as it was just as commun those daies...)? Whi? Perhapes because he could "burn down" his desires with all other off his women? Thate's precisely whate happens with the behaviour off a paedoplhilicus... but as far we can say this is not posible to stant in either waie...
xiii) Butt according to your wordes... Did not Muhammad habe low self esteem? You say no... was he not, sometimes, depressed an angrie because no one beliebed in him? I may be wrong, though... Am I wrongue?
xiv) steal with your own wordes... Lack of impulse control... well… we spoke aboute that in xii)...
xv) denial... well (according to your wordes...) iff Muhamamds behavior was ok at his time (ore he beliebed is such) whie shoulde he habe incurred in denieal?
xvi) poor family relationships (in childwood... I beliebe...); the point here is just not habieg parents, butt rather iff the quality off it's relations was rich enought so someone can understand thate habien sexual intercourse with children is wrong... ounce again: iff Muhamamds behavior was ok at his time (ore his familie beliebed in such) how could he realize this was not ok?
xvii) low IQ? You saied? well, statisticalie thate may be right, butt habe you nott find in the news thate many off the latest membres of paedophilic members were Medical doctors, attorneysm university teachears...? butt one thing is sure: Muhammad was a cleaber person... berie inventive... Am I wrongue?
xviii) lonely habits... that's nott habing them onlie when someone might habe comited paedophilia, but iff that's a transversal aspect off someone life... and I guess thate, indiniealy, Muhamamd had some tendencies to be alone... Am I wrongue?
xix) Having been themselves sexually abused... there's not a direct relation with thate aspectt and paedophilia... butt how can we be sure Muhamamd was not vivtime of child abuse? iff Muhamamds behavior was ok at his time (ore his familie beliebed in such) how can we say he was not victim off such behaviour? Am I wrongue?
ali... I made these questions manie times to manie muslimes (some off theme here in these blogg), butt neber recieved an honest unswer... please… do beliebe in me thate I do nott wont to hoffend you. And I promise thate iff you gibe me a clear ebidence to these questions I’ll rethink mie position…
Ali... ounce agian: I'm sorrie... I thoughte you were asking me to explain whie I reffered to Muhammad's paedophilia... I now realize you did not... you're just wantting to say thate amoung the moral behaviour thate I saide Doctor Ehteshaam Gulam woulde habe to debate there's no need to debate such topic... butt perhapes eh should be prepared to do so iff he was to be gopg prepared to face anie Christian apologist who might point that aspect to him... so: forgett it was I thate pointed the prevuious post directed to you, and do trie to help Doctor Ehteshaam Gulam bulding is argumentes and lossing some fears when in dealing the subject off "Who was Muhamamd"... he seams to be a berie good person... thankes...
Sepher wrote: "Most of the stuff brought up by Muslims about Christianity "inventing" things inconsistent with previous revelation are silenced and made to look utterly foolish when you see the explanations presented from a Jewish context."I totally agree. I got all 4 volumes and I've been waiting for volume 5 to come out for like a year and a half now. Muslims always raise objections already made by orthodox Jews, JW's and Oneness Pentecostals. There is not an original argument against our faith made by Muslims, other than the plainly dumb arguments like "where did Jesus say I am God worship me". Although orthodox Jews raise their objections out of their emotions, Muslims, make them out of sheer ignorance.
I felt very saddened during this debate, but I'm not sure why. During the rebuttals, I fast forwarded through Qureshi, knowing that I could discern his arguments by Dr. Wood's responses. Those responses confirmed that I did myself a favor by not listening to this portion of Qureshi's "rebuttal".
Maybe I'm still hoping that the younger crop of Islamic apologists will be studying previous debates with Christians, very carefully (I recommend Shabir Ally). If an argument has already been presented, ad nauseum, find a new argument. Or do it so superbly, it will at least sound new. Since "Who is Muhammad" has been defended much better than Qureshi's presentation, how would he expect to win points for the same, wearisome, pre-trounced notions that he put forth?
To sanitize a common saying: Same heresies, different Muslim.
Ali wrote: Fat man how often do you open up your history books? Many times the prophet pbuh escaped from deaths.Ali, there are no history books on Muhammad. All we know about him are from the Sira literature and the Hadiths, which I don’t even recognize as saying anything about the historical Muhammad. You claim that he escaped death “many times” in Mecca. What source gives us the Houdini acts of Muhammad in Mecca? The point is that if it would have been the other way around, Muslims would have slaughtered the non-Muslim that would have criticized Islam. That point is indisputable.
Osama Abdallah said...
I have refuted much of David Wood's arguments at: http://www.answeringmuslims.com/search/label/Osama%20Abdallah
You can also visit:
Osama AbdallahGood grief, Osama, get over yourself. You're not even a contender (except in your own delusional mind) as a legitimate apologist. You're in the same pail as Nadir, . . . scorned, disparaged, ridiculed - well check a thesaurus and save me the time.
The FreeThoughtMecca site nailed your coffin shut five years ago. To try rising from it now would only confirm my suspicion that you are a vampire.
*holds Cross up to Osama to make him flee in terror*
Actually Fernando I find what your saying incredibly offensive. If your a Christian you really don't have a right to talk about Muhammad (p) marriage with Aisha. Know why? How old was the Virgin Mary when she was married to a very grown up Joesph? She was 12 years old. How old when she was preganant with Jesus? She was around 13-14 years old. So according to our standards, God the Father, The Holy Spirit and Joesph (Jesus step father) are all gulity of Pedophilla, Child rape, Statutory Rape, etc. So you need to be consistent, if your going to throw that accusation to the Prophet of Islam are you prepared to throw that accusation to God the Father, Joesph, the Holy Spirit as well? Don't mean to be offensive just logical.
A few responses. First to Ali
"Fat man how often do you open up your history books? Many times the prophet pbuh escaped from deaths."
I Read a lot of history, I'm currently finishing up reading a book on Abrham Lincoln, and after that I will tear into a book on Qin Shi Huang the first emporer of China. Before that I read Fiasco.
Now as far as your comment on your prophet and the many attemps on his life, lets reveiw a one. First the JOOSH tried to kiill him by dropping a stone from the roof of a building. I guess just stabbing him was a little to complicated. Oh didnt allah warn mohamed about this causing mohamed to have Ali take his place.
Speaking of wich wasnt there another attempt when mohamed ran out of mecca. Didnt he have Ali wear his clothes and sleep in his bed as he snuck out the back door.
But putting these elebaorate attempts on your prophets life aside. The point is he lived for 12years with the "Blood Thirsty" meccans. I guess the blood thirsty meccans were total failures at being blood thirsty.
Farhan seems completely oblivious to the fact that Muhammad fails the test that he kept hammering away at in this debate.
Muhammad spoke in the name of another god, named Allah. The Tanach gives the name of the one true God over 6,000 times [and it's not Allah].
Allah is a foreign god that Jews have never known, and none of our prophets spoke in the name of. According to Moshe Muhammad is a false prophet, and we must not hear him.
it might be a useful approach to focus on one aspect that carries the most force in your opinion. In "Knowledge of God", for example, Michael Tooley focusses on an earthquake in the 18th century to support an argument from suffering against the existence of God. Osama focusses on an argument from scientific accuracy to support the Quran and a christian might use something like David's deuteronomical deduction.
It depends on how well you can prepare a single topic instead of several ones (like Nabeel did in his debate with Osama).
Esteshaam: “Actually Fernando I find what your saying incredibly offensive. If your a Christian you really don't have a right to talk about Muhammad (p) marriage with Aisha. Know why? How old was the Virgin Mary when she was married to a very grown up Joesph? She was 12 years old. How old when she was preganant with Jesus? She was around 13-14 years old. So according to our standards, God the Father, The Holy Spirit and Joesph (Jesus step father) are all gulity of Pedophilla, Child rape, Statutory Rape, etc. So you need to be consistent, if your going to throw that accusation to the Prophet of Islam are you prepared to throw that accusation to God the Father, Joesph, the Holy Spirit as well? Don't mean to be offensive just logical.”
Well, there you have it. Muslims are officially the most repulsively ignorant people I have ever met. And this is what Muslims call “logic”. Islam must effect the brain in a way that nothing else effects it. Gulam, where did you get that figure from? The age of 12 is completely grasped out of thin air. If we look at the data at hand, we have every reason to believe that that age is just not true. Mary shows incredible mature behaviour in the gospels, for one. Second, to think that God would place such a responsibility of raising a child, and not just any child but THE MESSIAH, on a 12 year old child is of course ridiculous.
In addition, you make a lot of claims in your post such as God being guilty of rape, etc. Again, this is the Qur’anic position that NO CHRISTIAN adheres to. The Qur’an AGAIN totally misrepresents what others believe. God did NOT have sex with Mary and therefore can’t be guilty of either rape, paedophilia, and all that nonsense you spew that your beloved child molesting prophet was guilty of. But that you have no quarrel with accepting, do you?
Furthermore, Muslims now a days know a lot more about our scriptures than Allah or Muhammad. You mention Joseph and call him Yeshua’s step father. But according to your god and your prophet Mary was part of the house of Zacharia, the father of Yahya. The Qur’an says NOTHING about Joseph because it is completely ignorant about him. Because if it does, it wouldn’t put Mary in the house of Zacharia, but in the house of Joseph, her husband. Just like the Qur’an confuses the Trinity consistently leaving out the Spirit and inserting “the Mother”. Just like the Qur’an confuses Miryam, the mother of Yeshua with Miryam, the sister of Moses, by calling her sister of Aaron and daughter of Imran. And we can go on and on and on. But I’ll be making a video about all these goofs in the Qur’an.
You need to seriously read up on the source materials carefully before you make claims concerning Mary and her marriage to Joseph. Perhaps you took the claims from Nadir without checking them out carefully. Read what the Catholic Encyclopedia actually says because I'm sure that is where these age claims are taken from:
"It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place. These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance, Raphael's "Espousals of the Virgin"), are void of authority; they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of "the Lord's brothers"; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God."
As you can see, this citation actually debunks the claims of Mary's age. What's more, NO MENTION is made in the bible.
Please, next time do your homework sir.
By the way, God didn't have sex with Mary to produce Jesus.
Jesus has eternally existed prior to the incarnation.
Furthermore, not that I condone 14 years old as an age of pregnancy, but it is quite a leap from 9 years old sir.
Ehteshaam Gulam said: «I find what your saying incredibly offensive. If your a Christian you really don't have a right to talk about Muhammad (p) marriage with Aisha»... looool... poor Fernando... I'm absolutely sure, knowing him from his postes around here, he wanted to be offensive to all muslins around the world... Ehteshaam Gulam: grow up and learn something about Christianity and your pseudo-religion... this problem of the false comparison between the horny an paedophile Muhammad and Aisha has been debated innumerable times in this blog… Ehteshaam Gulam: do your own homework before writing stupid and offensive comments towards other bloggers and Christianity. It’s not us who are inventing facts! It’s you and islam -- which, by the way, has been doing this from the start of it’s story -- who's doing it. It’s islam that’s incredible offensive towards all other religions. Ehteshaam Gulam: grow up and be a man! Fernando only commented, and posted some questions (intending to HELP you), after someone else wrote some false affirmations denying that Muhammad was a paedophile. And he was: paedophile is, indeed, someone who has sex with a child. Denying the truth won’t make islam’s message more appealing: it will only express it’s true nature: deception and falsity! Ehteshaam Gulam: I know you’re still a young apologist, but you have to learn that no topic is “taboo” if it emerged from any historical or theological source of islam. Telling the truth is never offensive; telling a lye (by stupidity, ignorance, deception, etc.) is: that’s why Fernando was not being offensive, but you, as islam, were! Ehteshaam Gulam: grow up!
Ehteshaam said: Know why? How old was the Virgin Mary when she was married to a very grown up Joesph? She was 12 years old. How old when she was preganant with Jesus? She was around 13-14 years old. So according to our standards, God the Father, The Holy Spirit and Joesph (Jesus step father) are all gulity of Pedophilla, Child rape, Statutory Rape, etc.You have got to be kidding me? Ehteshaam, there is absolutely no information on the conclusive age of Mary in the Bible. Furthermore, as you rightly point out, and the Quran affirms, Mary was a virgin when she conceived Yeshua. Are you under the bizarre misconception that the Bible teaches that God had sex with Mary in order to conceive or something of that nature?
According the Quran, Allah blew his Ruh into the private parts of Mary (Q 22:91, 66:12). Are you going to call your god Allah a "rapist"?
Where are you getting your information about the age of Mary? I would like a source please. You are claiming Fernando is being offensive? Give me a break.
Ehteshaam, I have no idea how you could possibly be surprised or shocked if a 21st century non-Muslim takes issue with the reality of Muhammad having sex with a child. I would just like to point out in passing, that if Aisha was 9 according to the Islamic calendar, she was less than 9 according to the western Gregorian calendar. And let us not forget, whether it was normal or abnormal by the standards of Muhammad's day, it is abnormal and illegal in much of the world today.
Ehteshaam, do you believe you should have a right to marry a 9 year old girl? Muhammad's sunnah seems to imply that you should.
Brother Ehteshaam Gulam... Assalamu 'alaykum... I'm not a scholar; I just lived 8 years in a, cultural speaking, christian country. There's not the slightest analogy between the relation between Muhammad (PBUH) and Aisha and what happened with the (stupid) affirmation of the incarnation of God in Miryam...
Ehteshaam said: How old was the Virgin Mary when she was married to a very grown up Joesph? She was 12 years old. How old when she was preganant with Jesus? She was around 13-14 years old. So according to our standards, God the Father, The Holy Spirit and Joesph (Jesus step father) are all guilty of Pedophilla, Child rape, Statutory Rape, etc. So you need to be consistent, if your going to throw that accusation to the Prophet of Islam are you prepared to throw that accusation to God the Father, Joesph, the Holy Spirit as well? Don't mean to be offensive just logical. Ehteshaam, was I premature in my hope for your ethical approach to the Muslim/Christian debate?
According to your Koran, Mary, mother of Jesus, was Aaron and Moses' sister. That would make her about 1400 years old when she gave birth to Jesus.
Now, please show me where Mary, either in Scripture or her personal account, gives her age. Where do YOU find her age addressed? I can show you Aisha's age from Islam's Sahih accounts.
This should be your focus, Ehteshaam: Muhammad is your best example, a man of "pure" morals. Muslims are to emulate him, to follow 'al Sunna al nabawiyah'.
If, what you say about Mary, mother of Jesus, is true (and you can provide no proof for your accusation), is Joseph to be our example "for all men for all times"?
Christians are commanded to emulate the Holy and sinless Christ. Not King David, nor Moses, nor Peter, nor anyone at all, prophet, patriarch, apostle, or otherwise. Christianity stands or falls on Christ, and Christ alone. Islam falls, fails every standard of a Holy God, based on Muhammad's teachings.
I know that all Scripture is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness", so it teaches me what to avoid as well as what to emulate. God doesn't hesitate to paint his servants with all their warts on, and also shows that He judged their sins (still does), disciplined his servants, and he never - NEVER EVER - turns sin into sunnah to accommodate a servant. It should bother you, and every Muslim, to see that *allah* was dragged around by Muhammad, serving his every whim (including some filthy sexual practices), by quickly sending an accommodating ayah, bestowing his blessing on Muhammad's filth. Allah was Muhammad's personal valet, waiting in the wings to rush to his rescue, do his bidding, no matter how vile Muhammad's behavior.
You say "according to our standards ...". What are Islam's standards? I can't find them because they're in the sewer. Islam has no standards, other than the demand to declare your vile vermin, Muhammad, as "messenger". You need higher standards, and you need a mo' better example to follow. Islam is rotting your brain.
Shame on you for trying to drag a Holy God and Holy Spirit to the gutter level of Islam. Don't slide into the cesspool with Nadir and Osama. You were off to a better start, even though I know you can't rise above the animal teachings of your false messenger.
Last night I read Ehteshaam post on being offended by what Fernando said.
I wrote a very graphic response to him. I actualy got phisicaly Ill, and vomited.
This response was very graphic and definitly should not of been posted.
Ehteshaam you are offended by what Fernando said about your prophet but not offended what your prophet did to a 9 year old child. She probably still had some of her baby teeth.
Becasue of what because of Muhammad's act, little girls in Islamic countries still suffer the consequences, and are married off at 9 years of age.
Sir i am offended, I am offended that you would even call yourself a man.
//i) can you presente anie ebidence that in europe the age off concept was 10 juste 100 years ago? And whie are you making comparisons? Iff anie person in enie age was noticed to habe marriage a 6 years old baby and habing sex with a 9 years old girl the poin would be present eben there… butt that’s nott the case here…//
I gave you a source.
//Aboutte paedophilia... ali... its seames you're justv trying to build sand castles bie: a) trying to make some invalid comparisones (v.g., mie point i); b) making posible false claimes (v.g., mie point iii); c) choosing this magazine (which... bie the way... I could not access in the web...) and not thate one, neither a solid medical publication, perhapes juste because the one you presented ofers a mental horizon incompatible (in your opinion) to Muhammads actitues (v.g., mie point xi)...//
false claims? i presented evidence and you call them false?
//Well, there you have it. Muslims are officially the most repulsively ignorant people I have ever met. And this is what Muslims call “logic”. Islam must effect the brain in a way that nothing else effects it. Gulam, where did you get that figure from? The age of 12 is completely grasped out of thin air. If we look at the data at hand, we have every reason to believe that that age is just not true. Mary shows incredible mature behaviour in the gospels, for one. Second, to think that God would place such a responsibility of raising a child, and not just any child but THE MESSIAH, on a 12 year old child is of course ridiculous.//
yeah maturity occured early buddy. this is the same for aisha. her actions also say she was mature. which baffles many after we here she was 6 when she got married AGAIN.
Ali said: "yeah maturity occured early buddy. this is the same for aisha. her actions also say she was mature."Do you call playing with dolls, and swinging on a swing with playmates "mature"? I certainly don't.
Narrated by Aisha:
"I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.
"My mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."I see no evidence of superlative maturity here, rather the behavior of a typical child. Honestly, I couldn't care less what a 7th century Arab did with his sex life, except for the fact that Muslims have made his every deed and word the perfect example of behavior for all time. Now we have a wake of psychological and physical trauma being forced upon young Muslimas in Islamic countries.
Ali... you're losing all the poor credibility you already had...
1) Fernando wrote he wouldn’t be able to be around here this week; nevertheless you’re writing in his back… Shame on you Ali!!! …
2) Fernando asked for hard evidence that in «europe the age off concept was 10 juste 100 years ago?»… the only link you presented was: http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm... and here there’s not the slightest reference of that subject… unless you are lying you’re ignorant…Shame on you Ali!!! … nevertheless we’ll be waiting for those evidences…
3) «false claims? i presented evidence and you call them false?»… since you have not proved what you said about the age of consent in Europe; that top living age was 40-50 years old in the seventh century, yes, I would agree you are presenting false claims… but notice the political correctness Fernando used when wrote “possible”… I wont follow the same path: you indeed presented false claims… you did not present any evidence for the age of consent in Europe neither to the fact people only lived 40-50 years in Muhammad’s time…Shame on you Ali!!! … nevertheless we’ll be waiting for those evidences…
4) «yeah maturity occured early buddy»… in what aspect? Psychological? Sepher Shalom has already dealt with that; physically? Are you trying to say Aisha was not a pre-pubescent when the role model for all muslims made sex (what kind of sex? All kind?) with her?… ridiculous!!! Shame on you Ali!!! …
Months back, I did my own research (superficial, when compared to the investigations of my source materials), to see if climate has a direct influence on menarche. It seems to have none at all, age being very consistent around the world. If I can post a link, I'll do so to one of the tables I used (table #3).
What the studies have shown, is that the age of menarche seems more related to nutrition (the age of menarche has declined during the past century due to improved nutrition). I'm sure there are other factors influencing menarche, but the point I was searching out was the influence of climate. This has been the most common defense that I've seen coming from the Muslim world: "Girls in hot climates mature faster".
Since there is also a deviant "precocious puberty", will Muslims claim that these five-year-old babies are ready for sex and pregnancy because they've been unfortunate enough to reach menarche at a tender young age?
Was "allah" so ignorant that he actually thought menarche signalled the onset of "womanhood"? He seems totally unaware of the necessary emotional maturity (and stabilty) that is necessary for good parenting. How did "allah" (whom I believe is nothing more than Muhammad's sock puppet) overlook the complete package of maturity, focusing only on the physical, whilst ignoring the emotional and mental maturity required for healthy parenting?
Islam is a "physical" cult. Everything is based on greed and groins (men's only, of course), so that even jannah is sensual and corrupt. There is nothing spiritual about Islam - it is a "good old boy's club, with a jock-in-a locker room mentality. It brings out the basest, most animalistic characteristics of man, and blesses them as worship.
Why are my morals so much higher than Muhammad's and his "allah's"? Why on earth would I submit to a "god" who wants me to become pathologically debased?
Please, Muslims, no Holy God would create a universe just to appease men's lusts. The only "god" who would have you believe that is the "god of this world", the "prince of the power of the air", and you will not like sharing your eternity with this foul liar.
Ali, you will look wiser - much wiser - if you don't use the debunked site of Abdallah as your source.
Aisha's daddy sounded horrified that an old man like Muhammad had asked for his baby girl's hand (and genitalia) in marriage. He did NOT say, "Allahu Akbar, pass the condoms", but, "I am your brother", to which the liar, Muhammad, assured him that they were only brothers in the deen, and Aisha was lawful for him. (GAG)
If it was a "common practice", how do you know this? You can't rely on Islam's teachings because they're all designed to elevate Muhammad's near-deity status in your cult.
None of the "ages of consent" links you provide bear any relevance. We're discussing your false messenger, who has set the example (and the chaos that results), for every Muslim male. If Muhammad was just another guy with a big, ugly, lying mouth, he is not a messenger. If you want to compare him to secular societies, you're saying he was just another guy like Jim Jones, Koresh, Smith, Russell, et. al. cult founders that were motivated by a fragmented psyche.
"Many pedophiles, although by no means all, do not have a great sense of capacity for adopting a sexual demeanor towards adults or those of their own age or older.
Then you conclude, "Well muhammed pbuh was also married to other women. And he never suffered from low self esteem. So he can't be a pedo."
Did you ignore the "although by no means all", or are you incapable of accepting that that disclaimer shows that Muhammad can be a pedophile?
Personally, I think the sunnah teaches us that Muhammad was a sexual predator/pedophile, and he felt no restraint practicing rape, incest, pedophilia, adultery, etc. He also was more than a little crazy, according to Aisha: Bukhari 71.660: Narrated Aisha: Magic was worked on Allah's Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not.
Please be more discriminating in your defenses. We non-Muslims are allowed to use our brains, and we get to question anything/everything, including YHWH. I get to "call on him", and he will show me great and wonderful things that I don't know. He can withstand all scrutiny so he invites it. (Jer. 33:3)
The main problem here is not Mary's age.
I understand fully well that in some cultures it works effectively to marry girls off when they were twelve or thirteen.
The problem here is the age of the man.
I have no problem for a twelve-thirteen year old girl in such a culture to marry a fifteen or eighteen year old boy. But I have a problem with a nine year old marrying a fifty year old male.
In the Talmud it was discouraged for fathers to marry of their daughters to older men, hence Jews who practiced this disgraced themselves; obviously even 2000 years ago people were repulsed over pedofila.
In the case of Muhammad and Aisha the primary problem is not the age of Aisha (even though a seven-nine year old is not ready for marriage or sex despite the puberty or not).
The Problem in the Muhammad-Aisha account is that Muhammad is above his fiftees and the girl is seven years old when married and nine year when she first engaged sexually with Muhammad.
So what we have here is a fifty years old engaging in sex with a nine years old; that is the problem.
Qureshi, U were not honest at all when u said that : Sala Allah aleyhee wa salam mean Peace and blessing of God be Upon him, of course you know that (Sala) mean praying. So it rather means that: Allah is praying on him and giving him peace. So Both mulsim and Even Allah are praying on Muhammed , what a prophet !!
So since you tried to avoid this issue, let me ask you does this make anysense to anyone, that Allah who is considered God tha lmighty of Islam is praying to Muhamed ?!! and How many times muslim pray upon muhamed daily ?! isnt this clear polytheism ?!
even more, you know that tafseer (commentary) on Besm All al rahman Al raheem (in the name of God the mostmerciful), do u know that raheem here means Muhammed and not allah , go read the commentary about it. so you are mentioning his name with allah.
Do you knwo what Muhammed meant when he said he will get the highest rank in pradise, tafseer and commentaries said, that muhammed will sit on God throne !!
Do u know what is the difference between muslims and pagans. Pagans prayed to Allah through a statue. But muslims pray to allah through Muhammed.
Muslims consider Muhammed as totally sinless and infaliable, doesn this make him like Allah.
Mulsims believe that Muhammed splitted the moon, which is illogical without any proof, but even if we let u belive so, dont u see that u r making him powerful as Allah, in controlling universe ?!
I really would encourage you to amke a debate on this issue, poly and Montheism in Both christianity and Islam in two separate debates. Cause Muslims are pagans but they dont know. If you wan material on this topic let me know.
Also I encourage you David to make a debate on christian believe in the quran. Cause muslims claim that muhammed came to coreect christian believe. But when You read the quran and Hadith, you find them talking about christian never existed!! for instance the trinity the talked about in quran never mentioned anywhere. They claim jews said ozayr is son of God. incarnation and birth story of Jesus is so different and immoral in the arabic language. Mariam as son of omran and sister of Aaron. and many other things claimed to be christian believe that never existed.
we realy would like to know who was Muhammed criticising ?! where this information came from ?!
One more suggestion is Jesus in the Quran and the bible. As in the Quran, he did every miraculous thing as God, and still alive...etc .. they just took the title out of him.
By the way David, Tafseer Al imam Al baydawy said, that the meaning of they didnt Kill him nor crucified, means that he the Jews though that by killing him on the cross his message will end, but that didnt happen as his message continued. like if (God forbids) muslim shot you, then People says hey Didnt Kill david and they Did shot hi, they thought they did. However his teaching is still alive. That was one of the interstig islamic commentaries.
David proved nicely with prove that mohammad is a false prophet.
Nice debate, I've seen some of the debates on this page & even though there're some debates that shouldn't be discussed with muslims (maybe with Jews) this as some other videos are really good debates.
Thumbs up for Mr. Woods & somewhat of respect for the muslim counterpart for his good behaviour in comparison to some other muslim debaters. Keep it up!
Hello to all the ppl have been contributing to this blogger.
I am Vish from Bangalore India, I am neither a Christian nor a Muslim. But i share the same views on muslims as this website tries to share. US is seeing the Islam just now. Its still in its kinder state. India has seen the onslot since last 1800 years. Lost Millions of Sqft of land to Muslim. But its no more willing to. We will change the map of India again. This time it will Bigger and much much bigger.
God bless you Ppl.
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