Wednesday, May 13, 2009

Muslim Cleric: Why Women Shouldn't Be Allowed to Drive

41 comments:

Ali said...

Ok so this guy is only a bit right.
women driving may lead to a corrupt society especially for a country that runs on cultural laws.
though he didn't specifically say women are banned from driving. he's giving his view of the west.
but in the end its only one guy.
i only get convined (like most muslims) from the quran and hadith, not what goes on in the world today.

Ali said...

oh and by the way women who dont live in the big busy cities {suburbs, towns, villages, tribal areas etc.} can drive.

Michelle Qureshi said...

I see they have this debate in all cultures...

J/K :-)

Fernando said...

Ali said: «he's giving his view of the west. but in the end its only one guy»...

one here, another there, another hera and there, another there and here and we finallie get that enourmous small minoritie thate does not allow the small majoritie off muslimes to speack the truthe aboute the truth islam...

Stephanie said...

Wait, you mean if a woman drives she might actually have FREEDOM? Well now I can see why this is a big deal.

But I have a solution to the modesty thing: Sunglasses. Yet I'm sure somehow these are immodest because they represent the garb of Western prostitutes/harlots or something to that effect.

On the other hand I might have been convinced if this cleric cited some examples to show how dangerous it is with women on the road...
And I can get away with that because I'm a female driver! Now that I've said that, watch my insurance rate go up. :P

Ali said...

//one here, another there, another hera and there, another there and here and we finallie get that enourmous small minoritie thate does not allow the small majoritie off muslimes to speack the truthe aboute the truth islam...//

The truth about islam? Well first that cleric didnt give any hadiths or quran verses on why women shoulddn't drive, and your saying thats the truth about islam?

Just out of curiosity, are you the same Fernando who runs those anti-islam groups on facebook?

Fernando said...

Ali... thanks for your wordes...

Let's starte bie your question: «Just out of curiosity, are you the same Fernando who runs those anti-islam groups on facebook?»I reallie don't know whate you're talking aboute... so: no, I'm not thate same Fernando...

Next point: whate do you mean when you say «Well first that cleric didnt give any hadiths or quran verses on why women shoulddn't drive»…?

Let’s starte bie ignore the facte you saide “first” and then just did not point anie “second” argument…

How coulde the hadith’s or the qur’an speak about women’s driving? Onlie iff they were about driving chariotes pulled by mules, donkeys, camels, horses, bulles or other animals…

But youre sources, and youre jurisprudential text bookes, are full off the mentality that allows this man to speake the way he does… ounce againe: one does not need to quote explicitelie the Holy Bible to know that destroying medically produced embrios is wrong according to it…

The problem, mie friend Ali, is not thise or thate specific prohibition, butt rather the mental code thate builds the idea that those prohibitions mustt be imposed. And this is not juste a cultural problem as some might argue: culture and religion in muslimes countries are inseperateble… is the qur’an was to bee more respectefull to women anie cultural aspect off anie society that was islamized would change…

Ounce again: «one here, another there, another hera and there, another there and here and we finallie get that enourmous small minoritie thate does not allow the small majoritie off muslimes to speack the truthe aboute the truth islam»… so: where are all the muslimes thate know thate this man is wrong speaking about it and writing to Saudi Arabia change it’s laws? Where?

Ali said...

Well no majotr people have stepped up in changing Arabia's cultural laws. Though they're are many muslim rights activists who only use the quran and hadith for their work. If you read the nes articles on Saudi's problems, you will find rights activists saying that this is wrong. I quoted a woman from the article about Arabian men being able to slap their wives if they spend to much. Now thats just ridiculous and insults islam more than Faith Freedom int.
Women who dont live in the big busy cities can drive. My aunt did when she lived there.

You only need hadiths and quran vereses to show men and women are equal. So by equal they can do what men do. Not all of the things of course as men and women have different roles.

Its true what you said. Culture and religion are hard to seperate. Kind of like the US and christianity.

Fernando said...

Ali... I'm inclined to agree with you in almost eberie worde you say... juste two problemes I find in them:

# 1: I do not think thate muslim sources say that men and women are ontologicaly equivalents;

# 2: eben though the west is clearlie based uppon a Jewish-Christian background (eben when the laicism fources trie to denie it), I fiend it berie hard to see how you can sai there's a similiar situation between the conexion off the modern USA mentality and the Christian set of mind (in the USA there's a strict separation between state and anie religion) and the conexion between muslim code off live and Saudi mentality (ther's not that same separation between the state and the muslim religion)...

but I do believe that iff Islam can experience a renovation truthfull to it's human side, recognizing women rights is an important step...

Ali said...

//# 1: I do not think thate muslim sources say that men and women are ontologicaly equivalents;//

Um maybe you can give me some sources?

... live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.
Surah 4 Verse 19


And by the US and christianity i meant americans arent great examples of the christian faith.

Fernando said...

Ok.. Ali... you saide thate: «And by the US and christianity i meant americans arent great examples of the christian faith»... I see... or maibe not... and the analogie withe islam is? Perhapes thate the muslim's states where there's a separation between culture and religion are not a greatt example off the muslim faithe?

Aboutte those sources...

"Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) of Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's apostle?" He replied, "You curse frequently are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you". The women asked, "O Allah's apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in your intelligence. Isn't it true that a women can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said: "This is the deficiency in your religion."» Bukhari I,6, 301...

womens are being compared to men as the first blue wordes clearly state, suche is stated in surag 2:282 «Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man, and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses, so that if either of them commit an error, the other will remind her»... and in Muhammad's time there were bery inteligent business womens... butt then: the qur'an is, to muslimes, the eternal word of allah, valid to ebery time... should he not know that, eben iff thate was nott the case, muslimes women would bee equali capable as men to do business?

and, I do beliebe, eben iff I may be wrong, thate surga 4:34 says «men excel women»... to whate this "excel" referres? Stheight? Wealth? beautie?

Ali said...

//I see... or maibe not... and the analogie withe islam is? Perhapes thate the muslim's states where there's a separation between culture and religion are not a greatt example off the muslim faithe?//

Yes i'm saying some islamic states arent good exmaples of islam because culture laws dominate, and i'm saying the US, a country that claims 85% are followers of the christian faith, dont show real christianity. from homo's to strip clubs. now they all might not be christian, though remember 85%.

women in hell fire:
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1173364216036&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE

deficiency in religion:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.htm

2 witnesses:
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162385852838&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/why_two_women_witnesses.htm

//and, I do beliebe, eben iff I may be wrong, thate surga 4:34 says «men excel women»... to whate this "excel" referres? Stheight? Wealth? beautie?//

No it means in responsibilites.

Fernando said...

Ali...«Yes i'm saying some islamic states arent good exmaples of islam because culture laws dominate»... sorrie aboute thate... can a cultural aspect be integrated in sharia withoute being an intrinsic aspect off islam? thate does not convince me... and you cannote say whate you saide because islam core texts are full off cultural aspectes off the arabic culture thate were previous to islam… so: was this one eternalie “contaminated” with them? Butt eben iff you were right… can you present me examples off people trying to purifie those countries who habe cultural laws in theyre rules? You are not meaning the Talibans in Pakistan? Are you?

aboute redirecting to other sites (to wich I went... not in mie computer, since Osama's site is full off virus...)... sorrie, again, ali... thate does not worke... I’m not making “copy and past”, but you’re… specialie with Osama's site thate is full off hatre agains Christianity and an eben more incedible ignorance... the textes I presented are clear, no matter the rectorical explanationes muslimes started to gibe in recent (I repeat: recent) decades to make the message more apealing...

let's start with the surah I presented (4:34)… no where it’s clear thate it’s referring to responsabilities has you say… litteralye you habe (according to the litteral translation off the qur’an made by “The Monotheist Group”): “more on some of them than on the others”… “more” whate? responsabilities? no where thate is stated! Whate we can infer is thate men habe more physical sthreight and, in so, moral responsabilities…then: why should men habe more moral responsibility iff morality is an onthological reality?

Then we habe sura 2:228… the text is ounce again beri clear… let’s allow itt to speak for itself: «And call upon two of your men to act as witnesses; and if two men are not available, then a man and two women from among such as are acceptable to you as witnesses, so that if one of them should make a mistake, the other could remind her»… whie is the text worried if a women should make a misteke and not in if a man could do the same mistake? It’s clear as water thate the problem here is that the qur’an expresses that women are more inclined to make mistakes than men? Whie is that? Making a mistake is, ounce again, an affirmmation off an ontological reality. Yes: as I saide before, you, as in M. Adad commentary, may argue (and I’am quoting this text), thate «as a rule. women are less familiar with business procedures than men and, therefore, more liable to commit mistakes in this respect»… please!!! As “a rule”? a rule from whate? from whom? To wich time? Is not the qur’an the litteral worde of allah valid to all times? And there has always been women as familiar as men in businees… in Muhamamdas time, and in anie time… Muhamamds’ God shoulde know that iff he was to bee a real God… the other posibilitiue is to admit thate women lack ontological intelligence as it’s a clear interpretation from the hadith I presented: «The Prophet said, "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind."» (Bukhari I, 6, 301)… sorrie… here we habe, ounce again, a clear onthological expression off the inferiority off women in comparaison with man… eben when you may argue this “woman’s mind” refferes to “mind for business”… please: do you, ali, admite that women are less capable off doing business? Surely this is a misogenic attitude that existes eben nowadays in islamic world (see al-Sharif al-Murtadha’s book “Rasa'il” 3:123, in which he clearly states whate I said…), butt you seam to me a beri intelligent and open hearted person… butt ounce again: one is (onthological) also whate he’s allowed to do (cultural)… imposing cultural misogenic rules upon women as an religious obligattion (as the qur’an and the hadiths do), makes them inferiore to men in both aspects…

And whie cannot a women pray (religious aspect) during menstruantion (onthological aspect)? Do you, ali, thinke she’s less capable to do so because an absolutely normal an natural (and so, God’s loving onthological domension) aspect off it’s life? According to the text I presented, the onthological aspect conditiouns an religious aspect… so: womenn are inferior in religious to men becausse the messenger off allah (and also this one?) beliebed thate menstruation (ounce again: an onthological aspect) makes then incapable off some religious actitues… please, ali, spare me…

Islam do state thate women is inferior to men. Perioud…

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali said: "//and, I do beliebe, eben iff I may be wrong, thate surga 4:34 says «men excel women»... to whate this "excel" referres? Stheight? Wealth? beautie?//

No it means in responsibilites."
Al-Jalalayn says: "Men are in charge of, they have authority over, women, disciplining them and keeping them in check, because of that with which God has preferred the one over the other, that is, because God has given them the advantage over women, in knowledge, reason, authority and otherwise"According to Al-Jalalayn, An-Nisa 4:34 tells us that men exceed women because they are preferred by Allah, given a special advantage, and he has given them superior knowledge, reason and authority.

Who are we to believe has a better understanding of the Quran? 'Ali' or Al-Jalalayn?

Ali said...

//sorrie aboute thate... can a cultural aspect be integrated in sharia withoute being an intrinsic aspect off islam//

No culture laws cannot be mixed with the sharia.many countries claim they use it but its obvious they dont.

//Butt eben iff you were right… can you present me examples off people trying to purifie those countries who habe cultural laws in theyre rules? You are not meaning the Talibans in Pakistan? Are you?//

It use to be cultural to barry baby girls alive. islam was the one to stop it.

“Whosoever has a daughter and he does not bury her alive, does not insult her, and does not favor his son over her; God will enter him into Paradise.” (Ibn Hanbal, No. 1957). “Whosoever supports two daughters till they mature, he and I will come in the Day of Judgment as this (and he pointed with his two fingers held together). “

//aboute redirecting to other sites (to wich I went... not in mie computer, since Osama's site is full off virus...)... sorrie, again, ali... thate does not worke... I’m not making “copy and past”, but you’re… specialie with Osama's site thate is full off hatre agains Christianity and an eben more incedible ignorance... the textes I presented are clear, no matter the rectorical explanationes muslimes started to gibe in recent (I repeat: recent) decades to make the message more apealing...//

I have given you several other sites.
Oh answeing christianity was made in order to DEFEND islam. Nearly ALL anti-islam sites are run by christians. It angers me because i thought the holy spirit helped guide christians and not insult other faiths. Before you bash in AC, think about your fellow christians and how they contribute to putting down the followeres of islam.
let's start with the surah I presented (4:34)… no where it’s clear thate it’s referring to responsabilities has you say… litteralye you habe (according to the litteral translation off the qur’an made by “The Monotheist Group”): “more on some of them than on the others”… “more” whate? responsabilities? no where thate is stated! Whate we can infer is thate men habe more physical sthreight and, in so, moral responsabilities…then: why should men habe more moral responsibility iff morality is an onthological reality?//

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/men_and_women_daraja.htm

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016420&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAIELayout

AC does a good job in defending islam. Same with readingislam
The quran is a book that CANNOT be read out of context. if you read it FULLY, you'll see how everything balances out. That is a mjor problem among non-muslims who insult islam. its easy for them to take out of context, but hard t uunderstand.

//Then we habe sura 2:228… the text is ounce again beri clear… let’s allow itt to speak for itself: «And call upon two of your men to act as witnesses; and if two men are not available, then a man and two women from among such as are acceptable to you as witnesses, so that if one of them should make a mistake, the other could remind her»… whie is the text worried if a women should make a misteke and not in if a man could do the same mistake? It’s clear as water thate the problem here is that the qur’an expresses that women are more inclined to make mistakes than men? Whie is that? Making a mistake is, ounce again, an affirmmation off an ontological reality. Yes: as I saide before, you, as in M. Adad commentary, may argue (and I’am quoting this text), thate «as a rule. women are less familiar with business procedures than men and, therefore, more liable to commit mistakes in this respect»…//

Fernando i have taken care of this.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996015878

//And whie cannot a women pray (religious aspect) during menstruantion (onthological aspect)? Do you, ali, thinke she’s less capable to do so because an absolutely normal an natural (and so, God’s loving onthological domension) aspect off it’s life? According to the text I presented, the onthological aspect conditiouns an religious aspect… so: womenn are inferior in religious to men becausse the messenger off allah (and also this one?) beliebed thate menstruation (ounce again: an onthological aspect) makes then incapable off some religious actitues… please, ali, spare me…//

See the above link.

And this answers Sefer Shalom as well.

As you can see in the links, they often have to go back to other parts of the quran because like i said, the quran CANNOT be read out of context. You cannot pick up a story book and start from the middle. Same for the quran in order to get more info you have to start FROM THE BEGINING.

Ali said...

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1209357480684&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE

MP said...

Ali... Ain’t you ashamed of what are you doing? Redirecting to other sites is the climax off dishonesty... can’t you present your own arguments? And refute the arguments others present here? You can’t just say: “I dealt with that when I redirected you to that or that link”. And, as Fernando pointed out, you can’t attack Christian sites and defend Osama’s site just because the previous are defending Christianity from islamic offenses and expose islam’s wickedness and these are, in your opinion, doing the opposite. It’s islam that’s offensive in it’s very core to all other religions since its dawn; not the opposite. The worst blind is the one who does not want to see. Shame on you Ali. Shame on you Ali.

Ali said...

//Ali... Ain’t you ashamed of what are you doing? Redirecting to other sites is the climax off dishonesty... can’t you present your own arguments?//

My arguments arent really any different than theres. and plus these are actual scholors who know the material inside and out.

//And, as Fernando pointed out, you can’t attack Christian sites and defend Osama’s site just because the previous are defending Christianity from islamic offenses and expose islam’s wickedness and these are, in your opinion, doing the opposite.//

HA ok nearly EVRY SINGLE anti-islam source of material are christian run. i think answering-christianity is the only ant-christian muslim run site. AND it was made in a RESPONSE to the myths and lies invented by those anti-islam christians. your saying i'm blind? futhermore i only use islamic material from AC and nothing about christianity. tell me, who do you think are the liars? the over 50 anti-islam christian run sites, or one ant-christian site WHICH WAS MADE IN A RESPONSE to the offending and false material your fellow christians made?

And fernando muslims can be friends with non-muslims.

MP said...

Ali... shame on you!!! The net is full of sites against Christianity and Christians!!! But we can ignore that fact and say that your pseudo-holly book is full oh hate towards Christianity and Christians… get ride of it! Christian bases sites are not anti-islam: they’re just exposing the lies of islam; the offensive nature of islam that only knows to attack other religions and specially deconstructing your rhetorical attempts to say, in the west, what you don’t even date to think in muslim countries (the myth that the qur’an and other sources do not prohibit muslims to be friend with non muslims if so common in the net that it’s offensive to intelligence)… But Ali: where someone here redirected you to ANY site? It’s was you who has done that continuously, and, as you admitted, has done that to an anti-christian site when you said to other bloggers, who did not quoted any site, that theirs arguments were invalid because they were doing so… Ali: you did not present any argument!!! You only redirected to other sites… and you dare to say that those people who write in those sites are scholars? Looool… they’re just a bunch of anti-Christians who don’t know anything about Christianity and are just trying to deceit persons presenting an islam that does not exist. Ali... shame on you!!! Shame on you!!! When your doing an exam and someone says: “explain me why 2+2=4” you can’t just say: “that’s the way it is because I read it so in a book from someone who hates maths and says that 5+5=9”… Ali... shame on you!!! You’re the face of islam: lies, deceptions, false arguments, lack of personal arguments… islam that’s all of that!

Ali said...

LOL i always find it really amusing when christians tell about islam. i ask you again why does the holy spirit control you in this way which causes more hate and anger?
A majority of christians who love to bash islam do not even know what their bible teaches.
I also find it real amusing when christians like to call themselves "scholors on islam" when all they do is visist anti-islam sources. its pretty easy to defeat them in any debate.
You know now i'll say answering christianity is a site that exposes all the lies and myths Paul taught. And thats true because he got a "revelation" 40 years after Jesus' death. and what was his job? you know what he did? he was A BOUNTY HUNTER. yeah he KILLED for living. i would SO trust a guy who wrote the bible with his own hands.

Ali said...

most of the anti-christians are atheists because they love bugging christians about:
how the bible supports science in creationism-
how vegetation came before the sun (and thats true)
how god created the earth out of nothing.
and how about the earth having 4 corners and STILL being a cirlce?

MP said...

Ali said: «i ask you again why does the holy spirit control you in this way which causes more hate and anger?»... I’m not repainting what Fernando, very cleverly told you about the spiritual dynamics of the Holy Spirit action in those with an open heart and in those with an heart of stone, but just saying: in the same way he was acting in Jesus and infuriated those who killed him...

«A majority of christians who love to bash islam do not even know what their bible teaches»... I’m sure Muhammad and his god, who only bashed other religions, knew a lot of more of them… sure… loool… but then: can you present an example to substantiate this claim? And I’m sure the large majority os muslims who recite your pseudo-holy book in a language they ignore – not speaking about the hadiths that many never listen about – know islam better… loool…

«I also find it real amusing when christians like to call themselves "scholors on islam" when all they do is visist anti-islam sources»... Who called himself a scholar in islam in this blog? The only person who said AC was full of articles written by scholars – as Osama Abdalah… loool… – was you, Ali…

«its pretty easy to defeat them in any debate»... It looks like all the latest major debates between muslims and Christians apologists were perfomed by Christians who don’t visit those sites because the last time I saw or heard a debate won by a muslim was the one where Ahmed Dedat – one of the major offenders of Christianity and intelligence – presented a donkey dressed as Jesus in front of Pilate and asked some questions it didn’t answer… loool…

«You know now i'll say answering christianity is a site that exposes all the lies and myths Paul taught»... I would only have guessed that if you were to be Osama Abdalah, and even if the evidences from your own words can point to that conclusion –no other muslim would have thate site in such a great consideration –, I’ll ignore them ans simply ask: can you provide some evidences for those affirmations? No you can’t. You know that’s a myth: another myth created by muslims to support the unsustainable thesis presented in the qur’an about Christianity.

«And thats true because he got a "revelation" 40 years after Jesus' death»… No it’s not… 40 years Jesus dead Paul was already dead… that’s the kind of information you get from the great scholars who write in anti-Christian sites like AC? Well, that’s of no surprise: their authors are just imitating the ignorance of your false prophet… And if you get insulted or hanger by this is just because you don’t like the truth…

«and what was his job? you know what he did?»… yes Ali, I know: he was a weaver…

«he was A BOUNTY HUNTERyeah he KILLED for living»… well: it’s sure he persecuted Christians, but can you present any evidence he killed someone? Can you present any evidence he ordered the killing of anyone? And if, so: had he been converted to Christ then? Can you present any evidence of that? Can you? I’ll even grant you the possibility to quote from those anti-Christian sites… It’ll only serve as a proof they are full of lies and historical falsifications… Ali: I’ll be waiting… and then I’ll show, from your own sources, the murders that were the direct responsibility of Muhammad, the same person who invented the claim he received an divine revelation… looool…

«i would SO trust a guy who wrote the bible with his own hands»… no he did not write the Bible: he wrote some texts of the New Testament… and he did it after converting to Jesus Christ… but the proof we can trust him his that he – as muslimes do with Muhammad – could have simply passed a rubber over those events and not make any mention of them – yes he could – but he did not such a thing: he assumed those deeds and repented of them and turned to a peaceful live… that’s the difference with Muhamamd that as the time of his supposed-relation with God became more and more violent, misogynist, misanthrope and so on…

«most of the anti-christians are atheists because they love bugging christians about»… no, Ali (or Osama Abdalah… ooops, I said I would ignore the evidences of this identification…), that’s not the case: the majority of the anti-Christians are muslimes since every muslim must be anti-Christian in order not to recognize their pseudo-holy book presentes a false Christianity; so they have to attack Christianity in order not to loose their faith…

«how the bible supports science in creationism»… does not the qur’an allows the same interpretation? But I guess why there’re few atheist referring to islam: a) they don’t even consider important to deal with such a stupid religion (as Richard Dawkins said in a recent interview); b) is muslim countries all those who say they’re atheists are persecuted…

«how the bible supports how vegetation came before the sun»… Ali: the first chapters of the book of Genesis are not an scientific account; they’re, as it’s clear from the literary gender they’re written, a sapiencial account who speakes about the relations between God, the cosmos, the earth, the human kind without the slightest interest to present an rigorous account of scientific data…

«(and thats true)»… we all know why you say this, don’t we? But then, if the qur’an is the literal eternal word of allah – which does not speak in a poetic fashion –, you can’t say what I said in the previous paragraph… loool…

«how god created the earth out of nothing»… where is it said in the Bible that God created the “earth” (this planet) from nothing? Can you provide any evidence? I’ll give you a help: we believe that God created the Universe “ex nihilo”… But then: can you provide any evidence of that statement?

«and how about the earth having 4 corners and STILL being a cirlce?»… Ali… I’ll ignore what you ignore: the different notion of revelation is Christianity (intrinsic to history and mankind) and islam (extrinsic to history an mankind)… but do you know that in the Bible the expression “4 corners” is not a geometrical expression? It’s an expression of “totality”, as you, as a muslim certainly familiar to the Arabic mythology, might say that the “4 winds of the earth” do not mean the earth has 4 winds… looool…

Ali… I’ll be waiting… looool…

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali said: "You know now i'll say answering christianity is a site that exposes all the lies and myths Paul taught. And thats true because he got a "revelation" 40 years after Jesus' death."40 years? 40 years? :D Please inform us all where you are getting this absurd number. Paul's experience on the road to Damascus was not 40 years after the Resurrection. Is this the quality of information you have been getting from Osama's site, or did you pick up this nonsense somewhere else?

I would laugh, except it is much too sad to see that someone has been so poorly misled.

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali said: "[1]how vegetation came before the sun (and thats true)
[2]how god created the earth out of nothing.
and [3]how about the earth having 4 corners and STILL being a cirlce?"
[bracket numerals are mine]

First, I have to ask if you, as a Quran believing Muslim, are claiming that point [2] is false?

Please cite the exact verses that you are deriving these 3 claims from, and I will be happy to walk you through each verse, in context and Hebrew wording, to clear up your misunderstanding.

I assure you, you are mistaken and it can be easily demonstrated. Perhaps we should also go through some of the scientific absurdities found in the Quran? After all, our criticisms must be consistent.

Ali said...

First i do not call any of AC's writers scholors. i've never claimed they were.

//And I’m sure the large majority os muslims who recite your pseudo-holy book in a language they ignore – not speaking about the hadiths that many never listen about – know islam better… loool…//

your pretty sure? muslims I'M pretty sure are the most practicing people of all religions, ESPECIALLY christianity.

//Who called himself a scholar in islam in this blog? The only person who said AC was full of articles written by scholars – as Osama Abdalah… loool… – was you, Ali… //

Ha apparently you. when you say these islamic scholors from readingislam-(the site i posted) only lie and, your calling yourself an expert.
If you actually visited AC, there are 12 authors, 6 FORMER CHRISTIANS. So why didnt the holy spirit guide these poor 6 people?

//It looks like all the latest major debates between muslims and Christians apologists were perfomed by Christians who don’t visit those sites because the last time I saw or heard a debate won by a muslim was the one where Ahmed Dedat – one of the major offenders of Christianity and intelligence – presented a donkey dressed as Jesus in front of Pilate and asked some questions it didn’t answer… loool…//

Lol another ingorant christian.
Does Zakir Naik-William Campbell ring a bell? How about Shabir Alley? i do not know shabir very well since theres no wikipedia page of him, but he sounds pretty good.

//I would only have guessed that if you were to be Osama Abdalah, and even if the evidences from your own words can point to that conclusion –no other muslim would have thate site in such a great consideration –, I’ll ignore them ans simply ask: can you provide some evidences for those affirmations? No you can’t. You know that’s a myth: another myth created by muslims to support the unsustainable thesis presented in the qur’an about Christianity.//

Are you talking about Osama and crew defending islam or attacking christianity? defending islam sources can be found on the front of this site. plus the readingislam one i gave you, which you ingnored, calling them "liars" LOL.

//well: it’s sure he persecuted Christians, but can you present any evidence he killed someone? Can you present any evidence he ordered the killing of anyone? And if, so: had he been converted to Christ then? Can you present any evidence of that? Can you? I’ll even grant you the possibility to quote from those anti-Christian sites… It’ll only serve as a proof they are full of lies and historical falsifications… Ali: I’ll be waiting… and then I’ll show, from your own sources, the murders that were the direct responsibility of Muhammad, the same person who invented the claim he received an divine revelation… looool…//

Hmm yeah i would so totally belive a guy who was a bounty hunter, who killed and tortured christians, then all of a sudden get a revelation. does hitler sound familiar? if he all of a sudden started writing about judaism, would jews follow him you tell me?
muhammed pbuh never killed before hi revelation. I've noticed many christians bring up this when he murdered that jew:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_silas_2.htm

//i would SO trust a guy who wrote the bible with his own hands»… no he did not write the Bible: he wrote some texts of the New Testament… and he did it after converting to Jesus Christ… but the proof we can trust him his that he – as muslimes do with Muhammad – could have simply passed a rubber over those events and not make any mention of them – yes he could – but he did not such a thing: he assumed those deeds and repented of them and turned to a peaceful live… that’s the difference with Muhamamd that as the time of his supposed-relation with God became more and more violent, misogynist, misanthrope and so on…//

Again look at hittler.

//no, Ali (or Osama Abdalah… ooops, I said I would ignore the evidences of this identification…), that’s not the case: the majority of the anti-Christians are muslimes since every muslim must be anti-Christian in order not to recognize their pseudo-holy book presentes a false Christianity; so they have to attack Christianity in order not to loose their faith… //

No once again, many islamic sites have been made to refute the lies the christians have made up in order to get more followers. thats their goal, to destroy islam and get more christians. once again AC was made in a response to give the christians thoughts on how it feels when we've got christians hurting and putting down muslims. tell me would one want to be christian when he see's these acts? even when paul tried to perfect the religon by "sending a spirit to guide and help you"?

Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun.

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Yeah i'd believ paul.

Oh sepher i'll be waiting. i'm aware of answering islam's sceince errors section.

MP said...

Ali, after quoting this sentence of mine - «And I’m sure the large majority os muslims who recite your pseudo-holy book in a language they ignore – not speaking about the hadiths that many never listen about – know islam better… loool…» - said: «your pretty sure? muslims I'M pretty sure are the most practicing people of all religions, ESPECIALLY Christianity»… Ali… you’re mixing apples with oranges… you’re sentence does not deal with the point I made: the largest majority of muslims are indeed ignorant of what they’re reciting from the qur’an and are totally ignorant of the hadith’s… period. The fact you did not context this sentence, rather chose to speak of other aspect of muslim’s religious behaviour, expresses an implicit inability to deal if the truth expressed in it. But since you spoke of religious “practice”, I’ll say you’re absolutely wrong!!! Muslim’s religious practice is a bunch of external and formal attitudes without any expression of an interior character. As I said: how could this not be the case if they ignore their’s small pseudo-holy book? The fact you pray 5 times a day is just a peripheral and superficial activity; we, true Christians, do pray continuously with the “logical prayer” of our heart… Ali: shame on the false religion you follow because it’s destroying your capacity to see the truth…

Then, Ali, after quoting me «Who called himself a scholar in islam in this blog? The only person who said AC was full of articles written by scholars – as Osama Abdalah… loool… – was you, Ali…» said: «Ha apparently you. when you say these islamic scholors from readingislam-(the site i posted) only lie and, your calling yourself an expert.If you actually visited AC, there are 12 authors, 6 FORMER CHRISTIANS. So why didnt the holy spirit guide these poor 6 people? Ha apparently you. when you say these islamic scholors from readingislam-(the site i posted) only lie and, your calling yourself an expert. If you actually visited AC, there are 12 authors, 6 FORMER CHRISTIANS. So why didnt the holy spirit guide these poor 6 people?»… poor Ali: I do not need to be a scholar to understand the lies in someone’s arguments: they just need to be illogical and present false arguments… and you did not only redirected our attention to readingislam… you also invited us to go to answering-christianity.com and islamonline.net… did you forget that? Yes, there are articles written by former formal-Christians (were they ever true Christians? I’ll left this aspect to you… I guess you know something of Christian theology…) in AC, but since they left Christianity they were, prior to the formalization of their option to leave Christianity, already impermeable to the action of the Holy Spirit… they’re guided by their egocentric nature, just like in Muhammad’s all life… So: they’re not scholars in any aspect: neither in Christianity; neither in islam: a scholar is an honest and informed person… Ali: shame on you!!!

Then Ali asked: «Does Zakir Naik-William Campbell ring a bell? How about Shabir Alley?»… Ali, Ali… I did not say there were not debates won by muslims, I clearly said: «the last time I SAW or HEARD a debate…»… And do you know that in the Zakir Naik-William Campbell, Zadir imposed some rules for the debate that he continuously broke while W. Campbell, as a good Christian (although not as good scholar), felt the need to follow those rules? Did you know that? And do you know Zakir Naik is not willing to debate any top Christian debater? Can you imagine why? Yes Shabir Aly is a good debater, and a very good person, but he lacks coherence and refuses, as far I can say, to debate the qur’an… That also says something about it…

Then Ali, ignoring my gauntlet to present evidences about the claims those sites (and muslim’s apologist all over the world) in regarding to «all the lies and myths Paul taught», simply jumped to another point… ok; if you say you’re not Osama, I’ll believe in you…

Then Ali, trying to defend his false-prophet and trying to attack paul said: «Hmm yeah i would so totally belive a guy who was a bounty hunter, who killed and tortured christians, then all of a sudden get a revelation. does hitler sound familiar? if he all of a sudden started writing about judaism, would jews follow him you tell me? muhammed pbuh never killed before hi revelation»… About a sudden revelation… I think that was also the case with Muhammad… and he didn’t believe in it’s authenticity: it was his greedy wife who told him that he had experienced a true religious experience… But then Ali: Paul changed his life, he changed his heart, he accepted God in his heart and was as a new human being that he wrote some of the most beautiful and extraordinary pages of the New Testament… Muhammad followed the opposite path as I stated: from, supposedly, a good person he became a dictator, a tyrant, a homicide, an autocrat, a persecutor, a paranoid person, a misogynist, a misanthrope and so on… so: who was more similar to Hitler when we communicated the word of God?

Then Ali, in a climax of his rhetorical said: «No once again, many islamic sites have been made to refute the lies the christians have made up in order to get more followers. thats their goal, to destroy islam and get more christians. once again AC was made in a response to give the christians thoughts on how it feels when we've got christians hurting and putting down muslims. tell me would one want to be christian when he see's these acts? even when paul tried to perfect the religon by "sending a spirit to guide and help you"?»… poor Ali… I sid this before, and I’ll say it again, and again, and again, until you grasp it: it’s islam that, from it’s start that is saying lies about Christianity (Mary, the Trinity, Paul and so on) and attacking non-muslims to force them to convert to islam… It’s islam that is offensive, deeply offensive to all other religions; so: any action taken by Christians is always an “a posteriori” action against the roots of islamic intolerance, lies propelling, force convertions and so on… Ali: will anyone want to believe in islam after knowing these facts? No! That’s why AC and other sites full of hatred and lies (the same expression you started to use when referring to Christian sites in the web) must defend islam and attack Christianity: to express (following the example of the qur’an) a false islam and a false Christianity in order to give a false psychological tranquillity to muslims around the world in order to make them not want to leave islam… Ali: shame on you!!!

Then and I really have to say this, Ali, in an expression of total lack of understanding said: «‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun…»… poor Ali… I’ll limit to make a “copy and past” from what I said: «he first chapters of the book of Genesis are not an scientific account; they’re, as it’s clear from the literary gender they’re written, a sapiencial account who speakes about the relations between God, the cosmos, the earth, the human kind without the slightest interest to present an rigorous account of scientific data…»«And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth»; «That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?» … poor Ali… ounce again: I’ll limit to make a “copy and past” from what I said: « Ali… I’ll ignore what you ignore: the different notion of revelation is Christianity (intrinsic to history and mankind) and islam (extrinsic to history an mankind)… but do you know that in the Bible the expression “4 corners” is not a geometrical expression? It’s an expression of “totality”, as you, as a muslim certainly familiar to the Arabic mythology, might say that the “4 winds of the earth” do not mean the earth has 4 winds… looool…»Finaly he said: «Yeah i'd believ paul»… no you won’t. In order to believe in him, and in his God you would need to have an heart opened to love, peace, truth and God… unfortunately, since islam is only a bunch of lies that creates a mental state of intellectual dormancy or intoxication, you won’t believe in paul unless you start to adhere to truth and slowly leave islam…

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali,

Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13-

This is a Hebrew poem. It's a writing that presents a theological revelation, not a dissertation in science. What I am sure you are unaware of is that Hebrew wording of Genesis 1 verse 1 actually implies that "creation" had already taken place prior to the first verse. Literally "At the summit/peak elohim fattened/filled up the heavens and the earth..". Furthemore, the notion of a direct literal chronological order of events is foreign to the mindset of the intent of the author. Rather, it is a type of "grouping chrononlogy": first things are separated, then things are filled up. Even if it were literal, I would just like to point out there is absolutely no tension in that portion of the text anyway. Do you mean to imply that God can create everything but he can't sustain photosynthesis without the sun? [especially since the text says there is already "light" of some form]. Actually, the presence of plants before the sun, I believe is quite intentional and is a device to communicate a theological truth to mankind. Sun worship is one of the oldest forms of false religion. This portion of the text is a brutally effective method of rebuking sun worship. YHWH's light sustains life, as He is the source of all things. The sun is simply a luminary He created.

Revelation 7:1-

Have you actually read the book of Revelation? If you have you would know how silly what you are trying to do is. Revelation is an Apocalyptic vision. There are all kinds of symbolic things in that book; bowls pouring out judgement, scrolls being unsealed, living creature with inumerable eyes, etc. It's symbolism. Anyone who has read it know this. As advice for the future: Don't try to point out "scientific inaccuracy" from the book of Revelation at all. You will see people restraining their laughter if you do.

Job 38:13- (Young's Literal Translation) "To take hold on the skirts of the earth, And the wicked are shaken out of it"Would you really have us to believe, even by the KJ translation, that this verse means God will grab the earth and literally shake it until people fall into space? What absurdity. Ali, this is more the reasoning of a child than someone that has business 'critiquing' the Bible. Even the anthropomorphization of God makes it obvious from the beginning that this is an idiom, a figure of speech. The Hebrew word translated as "corners" in the KJV is "kanaph", which means literally: a wing (of a bird), the edge of a garment. Only by extension is it the corners of some other object. So, what of the Quran? Does it not speak figuratively? -

An-Nour 24:35 "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of his light is as if there is a niche, in which there is a lamp, the lamp in a glass; the glass looks as if it is a bright star. It [the lamp] is kindled from a blessed olive tree that is neither of the east nor of the west, one whose oil all but lights up, even though no fire has touched it.There is a difference between literal and figurative language. Of course you already know this, but in regards to the Bible you prefer to be pedantic. I wonder if you will now be consistent, and insist the Quran is teaching Allah is the literal source of visible light and is a lamp in a glass that is kindled by an olive tree?

My assertion to you is quite simple. The Bible was not written as a book of science. It is a revelation of the nature of our Creator, and the story of how He interacts with His creation.

Ali said: "Oh sepher i'll be waiting. i'm aware of answering islam's sceince errors section."I'm not familiar with that. Maybe I should check it out. These are my own explanations, in my own words Ali. Unlike you, I don't other do all my thinking for me. I can defend me beliefs on my own two intellectual-feet. By your standard that you have demonstrated, I could have just purged up a succession of links, and say "refuted".

(cont)

Sepher Shalom said...

part2 -

Now for the turnabout, Ali. Are you prepared to declare the Quran contains scientific facts? Is the Quran intended as a source of scientific information? Let's see if you are consistently applying criticism to the Quran:


Surah 23:14 presents incorrect information on embryology- "Then we made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood, then of that clot we made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature"a) there is no congealed blood stage
b) bones do not form before "flesh"

Surah 18:83-86, the sun sets in the mud - "And they ask about Dhu'l-Qarnayn. Say: "I will give you this account of him." We established him firmly in the land and We gave him access to everything. And so he followed a course; Then, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found that it sets in a spring of black mud and found, by it, a people."Sura 86:5-7, sperm comes from between the backbone and ribs - "Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs"There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the above three examples are meant to be anything but a literal explanation of; how a fetus forms, where the sun goes, how a baby is conceived. So I wonder two things: 1) Will you apply a consistent standard to the Quran, 2) will you present your own argumentation here for others to interact with, or will you act like a parrot and chirp up some links?

Along with addressing these Ayat, please clearly state your position on the following: Are you prepared to declare the Quran contains scientific facts? Is the Quran intended as a source of scientific information?

Anthony Rogers said...

Ali said: Hmm yeah i would so totally belive a guy [i.e. Paul] who was a bounty hunter, who killed and tortured christians, then all of a sudden get a revelation. does hitler sound familiar?....muhammed pbuh never killed before hi[s] revelation.There you have it: Muslims hate Paul because he looked like Hitler before he came to Christ, whereas Muhammad didn't look like Hitler until after "Jibril" came and said "Heil Allah".

Ali said...

//poor Ali: I do not need to be a scholar to understand the lies in someone’s arguments: they just need to be illogical and present false arguments… //

Hmm reminds me of someone and her way of putting words together.

//readingislam… you also invited us to go to answering-christianity.com and islamonline.net… did you forget that?//

well lady if you actually visited readingislam you'd notice its an afilliate, launched by islamonline.
Again both readingislam and islamonline are run by scholors.

//(were they ever true Christians? I’ll left this aspect to you… I guess you know something of Christian theology…)//

Yes there is one i know of, i dont know if theres more (probably is) and he use to be a preist. left it all when he read the quran (and in full context, on his own, with no faithfreedom, answeringislam etc. to back him up)

//scholar is an honest and informed person//

exactly like that former preist.

//And do you know that in the Zakir Naik-William Campbell, Zadir imposed some rules for the debate that he continuously broke while W. Campbell, as a good Christian (although not as good scholar), //

Really? Is this another claim you found on christian sites?
So do you really choose when someone's a good scholor? when they lose do you always claim this?

//And do you know Zakir Naik is not willing to debate any top Christian debater? Can you imagine why?//

First off ali sina isn't christian. and i'm sure Dr. Naik will fly all the way from India to the US to debate some internet guy.

If you actualy took the time to watch his lectures, you'd see how many christians who try to transfer myths and lies and throw it at naik, they'd run away like this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJhcjiNEwGo&feature=PlayList&p=694B9AE03C770D6A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=49

//Then Ali, ignoring my gauntlet to present evidences about the claims those sites (and muslim’s apologist all over the world) in regarding to «all the lies and myths Paul taught», simply jumped to another point… ok; if you say you’re not Osama, I’ll believe in you…//

Did you notice a little pattern Alforecca? you countinued to call my religion false with a false prophet, but then when i mentioned paul and his lies, you've kinda had a spazz?? i notcie this among christians. they're happy when they attaxk other faiths, but when they get attacked, it seems as if its the end of the world to them.

//I think that was also the case with Muhammad… and he didn’t believe in it’s authenticity: it was his greedy wife who told him that he had experienced a true religious experience…//

Actually a christian monk predicted he would be a prophet but muhammed pbuh didnt believe or care. yeah his greedy wife. you really like to jump on women huh? here since your a little anit-women, do what your paul said:

1 Corinthians 7:1
"Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry

Ali said...

//But then Ali: Paul changed his life, he changed his heart, he accepted God in his heart and was as a new human being that he wrote some of the most beautiful and extraordinary pages of the New Testament//

yes this sounds really beautiful:
Revelation 2:22-23 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

"Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)"

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. (Luke 12:47-48)"

Wow for slaves not even the quran is that harsh

//Muhammad followed the opposite path as I stated: from, supposedly, a good person he became a dictator, a tyrant, a homicide, an autocrat, a persecutor, a paranoid person, a misogynist, a misanthrope and so on… so: who was more similar to Hitler when we communicated the word of God?//

Yeah he had to lead God's final religion to all of mankind.
You know many non-muslims comment on muhammed's pbuh life and legacy in a positive way. that contradicts your view. all it takes for a person to bash him is one visit to your christian sites, and for some it takes time, dedication and research. so tell me, were ANY of his actions good? did he treat people with kindness? did he free slaves? did he increase women's rights that were abused and corrupted by christians? (before you give me a list of those hadiths and verses about women, remember i liked you to scholrs (readingislam)).

Ali said...

// poor Ali… I sid this before, and I’ll say it again, and again, and again, until you grasp it: it’s islam that, from it’s start that is saying lies about Christianity (Mary, the Trinity, Paul and so on) and attacking non-muslims to force them to convert to islam… //

remember FINAL FAITH reveiled by God. So are the jews also liars about jesus? oh and what about mary? i dont see anything offensive.
No where in the quran does it say force conversions. it actually forbids it. this was a one time action for the final and last source of truth sent down. As for your faith, remember spanish conquest, catholic bishops in the Visigothic monarchy.

//Ali: will anyone want to believe in islam after knowing these facts? No! That’s why AC and other sites full of hatred and lies//

What facts? you mean christian run anit-islam sites? Again and again, AC was made in a RESPONSE to your christian sites.

//a false islam and a false Christianity in order to give a false psychological tranquillity to muslims around the world in order to make them not want to leave islam… Ali: shame on you!!!//

what do you think is the goal of the christian sites? to get rid of islam. to get more christians because everyone knows christianity s the fastest declining religion.

and as for your little rebuttal on the science, ITS FROM THE BIBLE. Why didnt Paul put a little thought into is writings? doesnt matter what chapter is scientific or not, it still says what it says.

Sepher, again it doesnt matter what or why the bible was revield, it still says what it says.
Lol i think my favorite one is about the snails melting.

//These are my own explanations, in my own words Ali. Unlike you, I don't other do all my thinking for me. I can defend me beliefs on my own two intellectual-feet. By your standard that you have demonstrated, I could have just purged up a succession of links, and say "refuted".//

your own words and explanations?
so you read the quran, cover to cover right? am i correct?
you could have just looked at christian sites about "islam errors" and put that into your own words, do you even know what they mean though?

Sepher Shalom said...

Ali said:"//And do you know Zakir Naik is not willing to debate any top Christian debater? Can you imagine why?//

First off ali sina isn't christian. and i'm sure Dr. Naik will fly all the way from India to the US to debate some internet guy."
Actually, there is a standing challenge to Zakir Naik from 3 of the top Christian apologists in the world. Namely; James White, Sam Shamoun, and David Wood.

Naik doesn't debate professional apologists (maybe he did early in his career, but I am unaware of any). He debates people with some sort of expertise in a certain field that have no debate training, and relies on his rhetorical skills.

Ali said: "//But then Ali: Paul changed his life, he changed his heart, he accepted God in his heart and was as a new human being that he wrote some of the most beautiful and extraordinary pages of the New Testament//

yes this sounds really beautiful:.."
[he then goes on to quote Revelation 2:22-23, Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:47-48]

After the abysmally poor response I got from the last time I cleared up your abuse of the text, I'm not sure if I want to waste my time with someone that isn't even paying attention, and seems either mentally unequiped, or unwilling to engage the substance of my dialogue. Keep reading to the end of my next comment Ali.

(cont)

Sepher Shalom said...

Part2-

Ali said: "your own words and explanations?
so you read the quran, cover to cover right? am i correct?
you could have just looked at christian sites about "islam errors" and put that into your own words, do you even know what they mean though?
Yes Ali. I have read the whole Quran, cover to cover. It was the first thing I did when I decided to learn about Islam. What is quite obvious is that you have most likely not even read so much as a full book (or chapter?)within the Bible. So what is your point here Ali? No one can comment on Islam until they read the whole Quran? If so, do not make another comment on the Bible until you read the whole thing.

You are on this blog ranting and crying like a spoiled child about how unjust it is that we get all our information from "anti-Islam" sites, when it is quite obvious to everyone here that the insincere person is YOU. You are the one doing the copy-and-paste hack job. You are a hypocrit Ali. What is embarrassing is that everyone here can see that you are a hypocrit.

Ali said: "and as for your little rebuttal on the science, ITS FROM THE BIBLE. Why didnt Paul put a little thought into is writings? doesnt matter what chapter is scientific or not, it still says what it says.

Sepher, again it doesnt matter what or why the bible was revield, it still says what it says.
Lol i think my favorite one is about the snails melting."
Ali, are you really so ignorant of the material you quoted? Do you not realize that Paul did not write any of the verses from Genesis, Job, and Revelation you quoted from me? As a matter of fact, the whole time you have been on this blog so far, you have managed to quote exactly ONE verse written by Paul. How do expect anyone to take you seriously?

Well, it seems my "rebuttle" was more than you could overcome, since you didn't even bother to engage any of my comments. I notice you didn't even bother to respond to the clear scientific errors in the Quran I presented (and it was only 3), nor did you answer the 2 simple questions I put forth to you. Instead, you just moved on to brand new verses from the Bible, taken out of context.

I would love to keep taking you to school on the Bible in my free time, but you have to at least show the mental fortitude and capacity to responde to the content I present. If not, I will just assume you concede that I am right. So, before I deal with the new batch of laughable quotations you supplied, please comment on:

1) Does the Quran contain scientific information?

2)Explain the clear innacuracies of Surat; 23:14, 18:83-86, 86:5-7

3) What portions of the Bible have you actually read? (since I answered you on this issue about the Quran)

You've managed to generate a tremendous amount of words so far, but you haven't really said much of anything meaningful.

MP said...

Ali... your comments are so full incoherent statements and utter ignorance of the Bible I'll simply ignore them and let anyone to see and judge them freely... Spending time with you, who clearly ain’t an honest person, is just like talking to a wall that has in it a graffiti saying: “all you say is offensive, I won’t answer your questions and won’t even try to understand your answers”… By the way: I did not get offended by your reference to Paul; I dealt with all your most direct claims, but I won’t accept to spend my time in dealing with myths that you pick up in anti-Christian sites without giving any evidence to them… and yes, I’m a women, and I’m proud of it.

CosmicBoy said...

@ Ali,

You wrote:
I also find it real amusing when christians like to call themselves "scholors on islam" when all they do is visist anti-islam sources.

And you also wrote:
You know now i'll say answering christianity is a site that exposes all the lies and myths Paul taught. And thats true because he got a "revelation" 40 years after Jesus' death. and what was his job? you know what he did? he was A BOUNTY HUNTER. yeah he KILLED for living

==> Wow, amusing, telling Christians not to go to anti Islam sites to learn about Islam and yet he himself learn about Christianity from anti Christian sites.

==> You wrote: "And thats true because he got a "revelation" 40 years after Jesus' death." Wow, where you get this information from...40 years after Jesus. Hey man, get the fact right, people are laughing at you.

==> You wrote: "...and what was his job? you know what he did? he was A BOUNTY HUNTER. yeah he KILLED for living." Wow, another of anti Christian sites yeah...get the fact right...Paul die for Jesus, he was crucify just as Jesus was. Very much different from Mod and his companion...Killed, killed, killed the infidel!!! Killed, killed, killed, allah egg bar...killed them.

CosmicBoy said...

Ali wrote:
«how the bible supports how vegetation came before the sun»

==> I wonder how The Most Powerfull being called GOD cannot creat vegetation without sun. Yes, HE CAN, otherwise don't called HIM the Most Powerfull God. Maybe...yah...maybe...Oloh can't!

Mayhem said...

I think this guy is all wrong. He is coming purely from a Muslim perspective, so I am going to give another one. This comment of his is based solely on the belief that women should be clad all over, be modest etc, or she will cite the man to not control himself. That is nonsense. They use this to "manage" their women. It is terrible. Any woman should have the right to dress the way she wants. If a man can't control himself, it's the mans problem, not the womans. Hence if a rape occurs, or even a beating occurs, it is the man who should be held responsible for the act, not the woman. And no, I am NOT a Christian, and thankfully not a Muslim.

Fernando said...

Dear Mayhem... glade to see you arounde here... your neutral perspective is berie important... please: do continue to comment arounde here... mie cumpliments to you...

Fernando

khair holway said...

hi look at this verse from bible. deuteronomy 25-11 in case men struggle together with one another, and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the hand of the oe striking him, and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of him by his privates verse 12) you must must must then amputate her hand. your eye must feel no sorrow

Little Skunk said...

He doesn't understand Western society and the treatment of women in the West... It IS liberating for a woman to be allowed to show her face, hands etc. I can understand why Muslim men may think we have gone too far - and some women are certainly being exploited. However, it is a woman's choice - we are not forced/commanded to wear a veil or anything - if a woman chooses to wear modest clothes and less makeup, she is treated on an equal par with men. If she chooses to parade around looking as 'pretty' as she can, she will be treated like she is trying to do so...

I think there are extremes on both sides, and allowing women to drive is RIGHT. Women should have freedom, as men do. I do not think allowing a woman to show her face or hands is wrong... It is only seen as indecent in cultures where men are used to no flesh being on show - if you live in a tribal community, it would be even further 'revealing' than Western cultures, but would not appear as such to them - many tribes are used to women showing their breasts (and why not? Breasts are not designed for men but for babies)