However, I wish for the Christians and Muslims who frequent this blog to explore this issue before I present any conclusion. Let's hear the arguments and the defenses, and let's let the Muslims defend their doctrine. If they can clarify the doctrine to be a noble one, then that would be great and this will not be an issue of division. If not, the non-Muslims will have solid reason to believe that ignoble principles are advanced by Allah.
Allow me to post the appropriate Islamic scripture without much commentary.
Verses and Ahadith
This verse implies that Muslim can be deceptive with non-Muslims, feigning friendship "by way of precuation":
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them.
This hadith states that people are allowed to lie if the purpose is to make peace between people:
He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar.
Sahih Bukhari 3:49:857
This hadith shows Muhammad allowing a lie to be told in order to kill an enemy:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do".
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:271
Example of Taqiyya?
Below is an investigation of an imam in Australia who attempts to deceive the police by vandalizing his own mosque, and then blaming it on someone else. Is this taqiyya? I'm not providing an answer, I'm asking you to tell me in the comments section :-)
I hope promoting myself won't get me booted from your site, but I wrote and article for Answering-Islam titled, 'Is Lying a Sin or Just a Good Strategy'. For those interested in the topic, it may be a good read.
From a discussion on Taqiyya at al-islam.org:
[begin quote]"Reference 1:
Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti in his book, "al-Durr al-Manthoor Fi al-Tafsir al-
Ma'athoor," narrates Ibn Abbas', the MOST renowned and trusted narrator of
tradition in the sight of the Sunnis, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the
Quranic verse: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers
unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no
relation left with Allah except by way of precaution ("tat-taqooh"), that
ye may guard yourselves ("tooqatan") from them....[3:28]" that Ibn Abbas
"al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into
saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable
(i.e., his TRUE faith has NOT been shaken.), then (saying that which
he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al-
Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart)."
NOTE: The two words "tat-taqooh" and "tooqatan," as mentioned in the Arabic
Quran, are BOTH from the same root of "al-Taqiyya." " [end quote]
Aali-Imran 3:28- La yattakhithi almuminoona alkafireena awliyaa min dooni almumineena waman yafAAal thalika falaysa mina Allahi fee shayin illa an tattaqoo minhum tuqatan wayuhaththirukumu Allahu nafsahu waila Allahi almaseeru
The link below has the full article which is an interesting and detailed discussion of Taqiyya from a Sunni perspective
I don't think I would count this as Taqiyya.
Jesse said: "I hope promoting myself won't get me booted from your site . . ."
You'd have to do some major stuff to get booted from our site. Thus far, only one person has ever been booted.
From the Encyclopaedia of Islam:
al-Ṭabarī says on sūra XVI, 108 ( Tafsīr , Būlāḳ1323, xxiv, 122): "If any one is compelled and professes unbelief with his tongue, while his heart contradicts him, in order to escape his enemies, no blame falls on him, because God takes his servants as their hearts believe". The reason for this verse is unanimously said to have been the case of ʿAmmār b. Yāsir [q.v.], whose conscience was set at rest by this revelation when he was worried about his forced worshipping of idols and objurgation of the Prophet.
Well this Muslim Imam lies against his own brother. I don't think thats what Muhammad meant. The Hadith you quoted seems to imply that it is ok to lie against "enemies" of Islam, not fellow Muslims.
I know there isn't much by way of context that would help to nail this down, but it appears to me just from reading it that the second quote you supplied - Sahih Bukhari 3:49:857 - justifies one Muslim lying to another Muslim, not just to an unbeliever.
My last post was a response to the general point of the thread...I didn't see Bryant's post until I hit the refresh button.
What do you think of the second quote, Bryant? Do you think it looks like a justification for lying to a "fellow" Muslim? That was my impression at first glance.
Muslims are allowed to lie to their fellow Muslims for certain causes (e.g. to make peace when Muslims are arguing). But this doesn't seem to fit.
Actually, yes this Hadith does appear to teach that it is ok for Muslims to lie to each other to make peace. In a weird twisted way Muhammad seems to be teaching that peace formed on the basis of lies is really truly peace. This is insane.
I can't seem to understand how knowledgeable Muslims stay in Islam.
Still, I believe that it would be a far stretch for the Imam to use this Hadith in order to justify his actions. However, with the Muhammadans, twisting texts is never a far stretch.
Without a doubt this is not Taqiyya in Practise.
Now Again I am A Shia so Maybe my veiws on Taqqiya are differnt but never the less this is not Taqqiya according to Jafari School of thought.
Unless he is "at war" with his fellow muslims to gain leadership of the mosque, in which case... perhaps he doesn't consider them.... muslims.
Deception is a horribly complex thing.
God is not a liar and doesnt want his people lying for any reason at all,that is the whole point never there should be a valid reason for any religion to condone and allow lying.........You will know a bad tree from the fruit it produces,,,if allah is telling its followers to lie, then it shows if its God or not
Many Muslims, even in the West, believe that they are currently at war (against U.S. & others). Because of that, many Muslims feel that it's permissible to lie.
Also, Muslims lie by not expressing their true beliefs about the violent nature of Islam, because if they did not, they would be in danger of being imprisoned.
Some Muslims intentionally lie when they say: "Islam is a religion of peace," when in reality the aim of Islam which was clearly taught by Muhammad is to rule the world.
I had a quite longue debatte with Ibn (iff I can remenber it whell) on the meaning of taqiyya...
the problemm itt seamed, was on the interpretation off "in case of danger"... does this mean:
a) danger off lossing one's life?;
b) danger off lossing one's reputtation?
c) danger for islam's reputtation?
d) danger mouse? (to be in sinthony with Khayyam's power off argumentattion...)
so: inn whatt do we stand? perhaps some mislim reader can educate us all based on solidd documentes...
Here is Sami Zaatari's taqiyya exposed:
Series refuting what the snake said in his last rebuttal, closing and Q&A after I was banned from the debate.
HA! It looked like a Way of the Master segment when the reporter asks the Imam if he's lying and the Imam gets mad and yells "NO, YOU LIE!". Too funny.
I am currently unable to view the video due to the firewall at work, but I do have a comment on what I have read: I do not see how the second quotation from Sahih Bukhari supports the doctine of taqiyya. When Muhammad bin Maslama states "...allow me to say what I like", this does not imply a false statement in and of itself. Could it not also be referring to making an opinionated or preferential statement? This excerpt as a stand-alone is too vague to make a solid conclusion.
What is astonishing and frightening with Islam is the fact that it doesn’t teach not to lie and not to kill anytime as a basic principle like all other religions do, but it teaches when to kill and when to lie. It teaches when you may or must kill a Muslim, a women, a daugther, a wife, a khafir, an unbeliever. It teaches that you may or must lie if it serves the cause of Islam. Muslims can argue as they want on interpretation of words or sentences but the facts do and will remain unchanged at the end. Only Muslims admit killing and lying as a religious duty, evetually. But not too much…just enough. Allah is great ! And Muhammad too, for sure.
Yes Claude L... you're righte... and that's whate is fascinatting to manie people about islam: it does nott rekire them to overcome theyre "animal instincts" of hunger, violence, lust, revenge, hatre, decieve, and so onn... they don't need to be more humans... theu can be just like an narcisistic (pseudo)omnipotent two-years olde child who cries and beats when he does not habe what he wantes... islam is also a "mentall desiesed" in many aspectes... if you follow the DSM or the ICD-10 (the internationall catalogation of health problems, speciallie the section on metal problems), you just will understand mie words... I'm deeply sorrow for muslims around the world...
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