Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Is It Safe to Drink Water Polluted by a Dead Donkey?

We're all familiar with this scientific error from Sunan Abu Dawud, which I often use in my debates:

Sunan Abu Dawud 67--I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him): Water is brought for you from the well of Buda’ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual cloths and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything.

Things get worse, however. In the following passage from Ibn Majah, we learn that it's okay to drink water with a dead donkey carcass floating in it!

Sunan Ibn Majah 520--It was narrated that Jabir bin Abdullah said: "We came to a pond in which there was the carcass of a donkey, so we refrained from using the water until the Messenger of Allah came to us and said: 'Water is not made impure by anything.' Then we drank from it and gave it to our animals to drink, and we carried some with us."

And let's not forget this gem:

Sunan Ibn Majah 521--It was narrated that Abu Umamah Al-Bahili said: "The Messenger of Allah said: 'Water is not made impure by anything except that which changes its smell, taste and color.'"

This is, of course, totally false. Water can be filled with deadly germs that do not affect smell, taste, or color.

Let's conclude with a classic:

Sahih al-Bukhari 5782--Allah’s Messenger said, “If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it [i.e. the fly] away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i.e. the treatment for that disease.”

If I were a Muslim looking for something miraculous to justify Islam, I would argue that it was a miracle that Muhammad's followers didn't all die from the germs and diseases he exposed them to with his horribly unsanitary rulings!


Michelle Qureshi said...

If I were a Muslim, here's what I would be thinking:

#1 - It is certainly true that water can be defiled; we know that without a shadow of a doubt.

#2 - Therefore I must do one of two things to vindicate Muhammad: A- Reinterpret the hadith to mean something, anything, other than what it appears to mean, in order to make it legit (and ooh! perhaps miraculous knowledge of future science can be worked into this!) or B- Deny the authenticity of this hadith.

#3 - I cannot really come up with anything scientific to vindicate Muhammad here. Maybe if I had the Sahih Bukhari hadith alone I could do something, but not all these ahadith in context.

#4 - Therefore I have to deny the authenticity of these ahadith.

Done and done. Let's see how close I come :-)

Michelle Qureshi said...

Oh, here's a good defense:

1 - Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic of these ahadith, and it shows that Muhammad knew water can be defiled. That is why he says "make sure both wings are dunked"; if he didn't think water could be defiled, why even bother?

2 - Since Muhammad knew water can be defiled, we can throw out the lesser ahadith.

3 - We are left with just the one from Sahih Bukhari. As we have seen, this hadith shows that Muhammad knew a fly can defile water. CLEARLY THIS IS MIRACULOUS KNOWLEDGE FROM GOD! Desert dwelling, illiterate men in the 7th century did not know about diseases that winged creatures carry, like Malaria and the like! How could Muhammad have possibly known about Malaria? Only if he were a prophet of God!

Wow -- I'm beginning to get good at this :-)

Royal Son said...

I remember Ahmed Deedat saying in some of his lectures: "We Muslims are the most hygenic people in the world".

Pardon me for saying so, but I don't think I would like to have a glass of your water with my meal thank you.

Interestingly, regarding the hadith of flys wings, Muslims having been swarming (excuse the pun) all over a discovery by Australian scientists that Antibiotics exist in the stomach of flies.

Never once have I found an article or journal stating that ONE WING carries the antibiotics while the OTHER WING carries the disease. Interestingly, some muslims have even gone so far as to claim that the flys' wings contain a cure for AIDS.

It is common sense, that dipping a fly in your drink is going to contaminate it.

Since Muslims like to try to use the late ending of Mark which doesn't appear in the earliest manuscripts to tell Christians to drink poison, then I would love to hand Muslims drinks of water with flies in them.

Let's see how long they want to keep this up.

Anonymous said...

Im sorry David but this is just too funny brother. I can't imagine debating these issues and trying to hold the laugh in.

God bless ya.

Royal Son said...

As for the dead donkey, two of the legs contain the disease, and two of them have the cure, so of course it's going to be safe!

Bfoali said...

why was your deabte of Ossama Abdullah called off?
What happned?

Anthony Rogers said...

Let me see if I am following:

1. Don't drink alcohol...its bad for you.

2. Instead: drink water with dead dogs, dead donkeys, excrement, and used menstrual cloths in it.

This seems to make a great deal of sense to me. However, I am a little puzzled on the criteria Muhammad gave for determining whether such water is pure. Wouldn't dead animals, feces, and the like affect the way the water looks, tastes, and smells?

Fernando said...

Ouch... no wonders the Syrian wantt the Gollans back: it was there where the invading muslims armies buried many of there animales after destroying Jerusalen en the 13th centurie... I'll never bie anything again from a muslime provinience!!! Disgusting...

Nakdimon said...

YIKES! SURELY if this so happened to be a scientific accurate statement, Muslims would be all over it. But because it is quite the contrary, this is just nonsensical, Muslims are inclined to go "ah... this hadith is weak". Because, after all, Muhammad is the prophet and the prophet cannot be spewing nonsense!

Semper wrote:
"1. Don't drink alcohol...its bad for you.

2. Instead: drink water with dead dogs, dead donkeys, excrement, and used menstrual cloths in it."

How about this one:

1. “Don’t eat garlic… it stinks and you might hurt your fellow Muslims smelling like garlic.”
2. “Drink camel piss instead… that will cheer you up!”

LOL. I am so going to have a blast with the stupidity of just the Qur’an in my upcoming debate with Sami about his prophet.

David/Nabeel, I will be debating Sami on Paltalk coming Saturday at about 9-9.30 pm eastern time. Topic: Yeshua the Divine Son of God or Isa the prophet of Islam?

And two weeks later there will be another debate. Topic Is Muhammad a true prophet?

I would appreciate if you would announce it on the website so everyone will know and can attend.


Anonymous said...

I remember Ahmed Deedat saying in some of his lectures: "We Muslims are the most hygenic people in the world".

That's a good one.

Let's see. What would I answer if I were a muslim. I see good tactics here:
- The word used for "water" means something different. Or the REAL translation goes something like "No you, idiot, there are germs in it."
- The bad stuff on Muhammad is obviously made up.

David Wood said...

Bfoali said: "why was your deabte of Ossama Abdullah called off?"

Because I was sarcastic!

David Wood said...

Nabeel said: "Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic of these ahadith, and it shows that Muhammad knew water can be defiled. . . . Since Muhammad knew water can be defiled, we can throw out the lesser ahadith."

There's actually a reason for this. According to Muhammad, a small amount of water (such as a cup) can be defiled, whereas a large amount (a well or a pond) cannot be defiled unless it becomes putrid.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Just curious, is there any information about the debates, which I think were gona take place in March?

Were you yankees also gona invade England again in April or did I misunderstand something?

I heard also through rumour that Sam shamoun may come along this time, is that verified?

David Wood said...

Things didn't work out for March or April. Our schedules didn't line up enough. (I curse Nabeel's medical school!)

Our latest plan is for July, which works for Nabeel and me. If it works for Yahya, Abdullah, Hamza, and Sami, we should have a good series.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

yeah, I feel like cursing my school as well.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Oh yeah David

One more thing, I mentioned to you, some time ago, if it would be possible to ask James White to tutor me in a Phd. I guess me and White share pretty much the same favorite interests in studies.

Do you think that is worth checking out?

You may of course be busy with other matters, in that case how could I personally approach James White?

Osama Abdallah said...

David Wood,

There are few points to mention there:

1- In Islam, the water is not permitted to be used if its smell, taste and color are different than normal.

2- In the case of the pond, the water obviously was very big.

3- I have quoted from the United States Department of Engergy many quotes that said that desert soil does clean the water from bacteria and microbes.

Now, I know that this sounds strange to us today, but you have to understand that in the UNFORGIVING AND HOT DESERT, life is difficult and water is scarce.

The water was most likely clean according to the standards that the Prophet has put: the taste, smell and color were not altered.

You can visit my rebuttals section and listen to my audio-rebuttal to christian_prince on this point in great details.

Osama Abdallah

Osama Abdallah said...

Now, I must admit that I find the quote about "water is made pure for us and nothing can make it unclean" to be unacceptable. But, however, was this really what the Prophet said? Or was it a gosip that was added by people?

I mean, did not the same Prophet also say that water is pure unless its taste, color and smell were not changed?

Osama Abdallah

Osama Abdallah said...

David Wood,

You said:

"Bfoali said: "why was your deabte of Ossama Abdullah called off?"

Because I was sarcastic!"

Like I apologized to you in email, I'll apologize to you also here in public: I am sorry for that jail comment that I said about you. It was not right because you didn't really say anything offensive. You certainly have all of the right to be sarcastic. I just need to work on my skills.

As to the debate, your organization has postponed it twice already. Initially, we were supposed to have it in in the first weekend of February, 2009. I was then told it'll be in April. I was then told it'll be in late June. If you want, we can do this on paltalk. Please name the time and date, and I'll meet you on paltalk and do it.

What do you think?

Osama Abdallah

Osama Abdallah said...

And if you can't do it, then please name a person whom you trust and are confident with to do it on your behalf, and I'll debate him.

The topic is: "Does the Quran have Scientific Miracles in it?"

Like I told you before David, I am only a Muslim because of this topic. You blow this away, and I am out of Islam. It's as simple as this.

Osama Abdallah

IZAKDAVID13 said...

@Osama 2009 you said:

The topic is: "Does the Quran have Scientific Miracles in it?"

Like I told you before David, I am only a Muslim because of this topic. You blow this away, and I am out of Islam. It's as simple as this.

May I ask, it is now 2012...are you still a Muslim?

Unknown said...

Nabeel (asshole) Quereshi water itself doesn't get contaminated. You can boil it and by that it kills all the germs. You fuking christians sons of bit ches.

Unknown said...

Mr. Vader the water is contaminated until you boil it. will you drink water with a dead animal or menstrual clothes in it?

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It is established that house flies are carriers of dangerous pathogens of animals and humans. Even the muscaphobic critics of this hadith are forced to admit that no one at the time of the Prophet, upon him peace, knew that flies carry such harmful organisms. Whence the observation that “under one of its wings there is venom”?

Second, from the perspective of logic, if the fly did not carry some sort of protection in the form of an antidote or immunity, it would perish from its own poisonous burden and there would be no fly left in the world.

Further, the transmission of what the fly carries in or on its body is not an automatic fact. For example, the microbe responsible for ulcers and other stomach ailments can live on houseflies, although it remains to be seen whether flies transmit the pathogen.

There has long been evidence of bacterial pathogen-suppressing micro-organisms living in houseflies. An article in Vol. 43 of the Rockefeller Foundation’s Journal of Experimental Medicine (1927) p. 1037 stated:

“The flies were given some of the cultured microbes for certain diseases. After some time the germs died and no trace was left of them while a germ-devouring substance formed in the flies – bacteriophages. If a saline solution were to be obtained from these flies it would contain bacteriophages able to suppress four kinds of disease-inducing germs and to benefit immunity against four other kinds.”

Cited in `Abd Allah al-Qusami, Mushkilat al-Ahadith al-Nabawiyya wa-Bayanuha (p. 42).

More recently, a Colorado State University website on entomology states, “Gnotobiotic [=germ-free] insects (Greenberg et al, 1970) were used to provide evidence of the bacterial pathogen-suppressing ability of the microbiota of Musca domestica [houseflies] …. most relationships between insects and their microbiota remain undefined.

Studies with gnotobiotic locusts suggest that the microbiota confers previously unexpected benefits for the insect host.”

So then, flies are not only pathogenic carriers but also carry microbiota that can be beneficient. The fly microbiota were described as “longitudinal yeast cells living as parasites inside their bellies. These yeast cells, in order to perpetuate their life cycle, protrude through certain respiratory tubules of the fly. If the fly is dipped in a liquid, the cells burst into the fluid and the content of those cells is an antidote for the pathogens which the fly carries.” Cf. footnote in the _Translation of the Meanings of Sahih al-Bukhari by Muhammad Muhsin Khan_ (7:372, Book 76 “Medicine,” Chapter 58, Hadith 5782).

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