Thursday, January 29, 2009

Saudi Arabia: Authorities Arrest Convert to Christianity

LOS ANGELES, January 28 (Compass Direct News) – Five months after the daughter of a member of Saudi Arabia’s religious police was killed for writing online about her faith in Christ, Saudi authorities have reportedly arrested a 28-year-old Christian man for describing his conversion and criticizing the kingdom’s judiciary on his Web site. READ MORE.

13 comments:

Unknown said...

from the article

"After reading how Jesus forgave – rather than stoned – a woman condemned for adultery, Bin Saleh eventually received Christ as savior."

Chrisitan Scholars now admit that story is a fabrication... i wonder if someone could have told our Saudi friend before he converted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericope_Adulter%C3%A6

David Wood said...

Sorry Khayyam, but you don't know what you're talking about. The standard claim isn't that the story is a fabrication. The claim is simply that the story wasn't originally a part of John's Gospel. Since John himself declared that Jesus did many things not written in his Gospel, I don't see how you can claim that the story is false.

Apart from this, we find the same teaching elsewhere in the Gospels. Joseph refuses to embarrass Mary when he finds out she is pregnant. Jesus talks with a woman guilty of fornication in John 4. Jesus allows prostitutes to listen to him.

Thus, my Christian brothers who become Christians because of the love they find exhibited in the New Testament are on quite firm ground.

David Wood said...

By they way, Khayyam, if you're interested in actual forgeries, there were some written in the second through fifth centuries. They included things like Jesus speaking shortly after birth, Jesus giving life to clay birds, etc. Sound familiar?

El-Cid said...

The very moment I read that portion of John's Gospel played a part in that gentleman's conversion, I KNEW there would be a comment from a Muslim on it (thank you for not 'disapointing' me Khayyam) :-).

Khayyam, it's no wonder you jump right past the issues of persecution of Christians in Saudi Arabia. It's indefensible.

Unknown said...

Hi,

If there are Christians being persecuted in so called 'Muslim' country's then these countries are not following Islamic teachings with regards to treatment of minorities....

Non muslims have always found safe haven in muslim lands... remeber when Christians in Spain were killing jews , muslims? inquisition? those jews came to muslim lands and subsequently had their golden age...

what we see today in saudi or elswehere is not the proper way of how an islamic state is run..

regards
Khayyam

Nakdimon said...

Kayyam: If there are Christians being persecuted in so called 'Muslim' country's then these countries are not following Islamic teachings with regards to treatment of minorities....

Non muslims have always found safe haven in muslim lands... remeber when Christians in Spain were killing jews , muslims? inquisition? those jews came to muslim lands and subsequently had their golden age...

what we see today in saudi or elswehere is not the proper way of how an islamic state is run..


Are you sure about this? I suggest you take a look at the debate between Sam Shamoun and Nadir Ahmed before you ever make such a statement again.

Anonymous said...

The story about the woman in adultery "is most likely not even historically true. It was probably a story conflated from two different accounts" (see "The Gospel according to Bart").

The intention behind the Spanish Inquisition was to unmask treason, after an invasion of Spain by muslims.

DAN12345 said...

Islam doesnt allow people to leave islam,the punishment is death.
Islam is like a jealous man who is not sure of himself so he doesnt trust his women,if the man was sure of himself he wouldnt be jealous,he would know his woman would be loyal and stay with him and not stray.As islam knows itself it is a false religion so it needs to scare its followers to stop them leaving.As we all know if there wasnt a death penalty for leaving islam there would be at least a 50percent rise in the amount of people leaving islam instead of todays number.But this shows the power of the gospel people will believe it under persecution and death.

Nakdimon said...

Islam doesnt allow people to leave islam,the punishment is death.
Islam is like a jealous man who is not sure of himself so he doesnt trust his women,if the man was sure of himself he wouldnt be jealous,he would know his woman would be loyal and stay with him and not stray.



Well, I see Islam as the mafia:

(a) One code of conduct regarding insiders, “special treatment” for outsiders.
(b) You pay protection money and if you don’t you are fair game for insiders
© You are free to kill anyone that crosses you with no remorse.
(d) Once you are “made” and part of “la Familia” the only way to leave is in a body bag.
(e) It’s ruthless to it’s own adherence but especially brutal to it’s enemies.
(f) Two-faced: one face when amongst others, another face when amongst each other.

I’m sure there are other examples as well, but I think this will suffice.

Unknown said...

Nakdimoron:Well, I see Islam as the mafia. a, b, c, d, e, f.

(a) One code of conduct regarding insiders, “special treatment” for outsiders.

This is exactly what the Torah teaches regarding interest. Jews are prohibited from charging it among themselves, but not on gentiles.

(b)You pay protection money and if you don’t you are fair game for insiders

Very biblical.

21 And Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River [a] to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. These countries brought tribute and were Solomon's subjects all his life. 1Kings 4

© You are free to kill anyone that crosses you with no remorse

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18)

(d) Once you are “made” and part of “la Familia” the only way to leave is in a body bag.

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

(e) It’s ruthless to it’s own adherence but especially brutal to it’s enemies.

A man was killed for picking sticks on Sabbath.

(f) Two-faced: one face when amongst others, another face when amongst each other.

Sabbathi Zevi.

All in all, Nakdimoron's professed religion, not Islam, is the mafia.

Nakdimon said...

Ibn.

It is VERY tempting to respond with insults. But I'll refrain and deal with your points one by one...later.

El-Cid said...

Nakdimon said: "Well, I see Islam as the mafia..."

...and I wonder if there is any connection between the cultural remants of Islam and the rise of La Cosa Nostra in Sicily? (which was ruled by Muslim imperialist conquerors for around 500 years)

Nakdimon said...

I hesitated strongly to even respond to this display of severe lack of knowledge of Tenach from Ibn which is actually sad to read. And according to Muhammad it was the Muslim WOMEN that lacked common sense! (probably a gender change in this case!) As you read along you will see what I mean. But since I said that I would respond, here is the rebuttal.

Ibn: “This is exactly what the Torah teaches regarding interest. Jews are prohibited from charging it among themselves, but not on gentiles.”

OOOOOH. How dare we raise such unjust taxes to Gentiles. But seriously, that was not what I was talking about. Yes there are rulings in the Torah that distinguish the Jew from the non-Jew, but those rules are not to hurt or to mistreat the Gentile, because, as God repeatedly says in the Torah, the Israelites have “been slaves in strangers in Egypt” also. How many times does the Torah say “one instruction will it be for the native Israelite as well as for the stranger that sojourns among you”? So they aren’t allowed to mistreat the Gentile. But this point was all about the mistreatment of non-Muslims in Islamic societies. Examples:

A Muslim apparently has different blood than a non-Muslim. Because when a Muslim kills a non-Muslim, he can’t be put to death.

So says Ibn Timiyya: "Nothing in the law of Muhammad states that the blood of the disbeliever is equal to the blood of the Muslim because faith is necessary for equality. The people of the Covenant (Jews or Christians) do not believe in Muhammad and Islam, thus their blood and the Muslim’s blood cannot be equal. These are distinctive texts which indicate that a Muslim is not to be put to death for (murdering) one of the people of the covenant or an unbeliever, but a free Muslim must be killed for a free Muslim, regardless of the race" (Vol. 14, p. 85).

So says Al Shafi’i: In section one of "Ahkam al-Qur’an" ("The Ordinances of the Qur’an", page 275), he says: "A Muslim is not to be killed for an unbeliever". Then he says (page 284),
"If a believer murders an unbeliever, he has to pay blood feud to the Jew or Christian which is one-third of the blood feud of the believer, though Malik says it must be one half."


On the other hand a non-Muslim is to be put to death if he curses a Muslim.
Not to mention the fact that a non-Muslim can’t testify in court of Law.
Not to mention the fact that a non-Muslim can’t rebuilt or renovate places of worship.
Not to mention the fact that a non-Muslim can’t be granted certain political rights.

I could post them all here, but that would make this post too long. But go ahead and deny these terms and I will.

”(b)You pay protection money and if you don’t you are fair game for insiders

Ibn: “Very biblical.

21 And Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River [a] to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. These countries brought tribute and were Solomon's subjects all his life. 1Kings 4”


This is the best example you could come up with? Notice that all these kingdoms lived in peace with Solomon. Notice that these kingdoms delivered no special fees to Solomon other than the regions of Israel. Notice also that these tributes weren’t to humiliate or protect those people. How different this is with the Islamic Jiziyah:

Sahih Bukhari Book 17, Number 17.24.44: Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Aslam, the mawla of Umar ibn al-Khattab, that Umar ibn al-Khattab imposed a jizya tax of four dinars on those living where gold was the currency, and forty dirhams on those living where silver was the currency. In addition, they had to provide for the muslims and receive them as guests for three days.


Summon the people to Allah; those who respond to your call, accept it from them, (This
is to say, accept their conversion as genuine and refrain from fighting them) but those
who refuse must pay the poll tax out of humiliation and lowliness. (Qur’an 9:29) If they
refuse this, it is the sword without leniency. Fear Allah with regard to what you have been
entrusted. (Umar Ibn Al-Kattab, Al-tabari Vol. 12)

So NO. Point (b) is also NOT Biblical! Again, stop trying so hard to project the atrocious teachings of Islam into the Bible!


”© You are free to kill anyone that crosses you with no remorse

Ibn: “They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18)”


Again, this comes from a Muslim that says that Allah has the right to judge nations as he pleases, but at the same time denies this privilege to Yahweh, Whom he thinks that is the same as Allah. (not in a million years!)

But here is the brake down. Not only did they physically oppose Israel, thereby trying to dwarf God’s purpose He had with His people, but they also tried to attack Israel spiritually and tried to get Israel to commit idolatry when God was in their midst. As a result of all this God judged the Midianites. This was not a “kill at will” action and wasn’t an open ended commandment. However, this is NOT what we find in Islam. Take this hadith:

Sunan of Abu Dawud, Book 14, Number 2635, [9]:
Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah, eat what we slaughter, and pray like us.

So as long as there are non-Muslims, you are to fight people until they become Muslims. And there are more like these. Not to mention the stories of Abu-Afak, Asma bint Marwan, Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf, etc., who got murdered secretly and by deceit just because they dared to speak against the heinous behaviour of the Muslims.


(d) Once you are “made” and part of “la Familia” the only way to leave is in a body bag.

Ibn: “As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)”


“Yaaaaawn!”

This is getting very boring. First of all LOOK AT THE POINT THAT I AM MAKING! The text that you raised has nothing to do with my point. The point was “alive in dead out” as in:


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

And second, if you read the verse carefully it says that the Israelites were to offer peace to the towns they would approach. The offer was NOT to “convert or die”, as in Islam. Third, the Israelites were only to attack those nations that refused peace AND prepared to fight! THEY were not to attack it because of refusal of the extended hand of the Israelites.

Also, look at the previous verses:

5 “Then the officers shall speak to the people, saying: ‘What man is there who has built a new house and has not dedicated it? Let him go and return to his house, lest he die in the battle and another man dedicate it. 6 Also what man is there who has planted a vineyard and has not eaten of it? Let him go and return to his house, lest he die in the battle and another man eat of it. 7 And what man is there who is betrothed to a woman and has not married her? Let him go and return to his house, lest he die in the battle and another man marry her.’
8 “The officers shall speak further to the people, and say, ‘What man is there who is fearful and fainthearted? Let him go and return to his house, lest the heart of his brethren faint like his heart.’ 9 And so it shall be, when the officers have finished speaking to the people, that they shall make captains of the armies to lead the people.


The fighting is optional for most of the people. Building up one’s own life has precedence over warfare. This is not totally contrary to the compulsory Islamic Jihad, where Allah and Muhammad force people to get out and fight and even curse them if they don’t go out and fight for whatever reason. Since Jihad is one of the peace loving pillars of Islam, so much for “no compulsion in religion”.
All in all, there is a clear build up in the chapter, but you fail to mention that and just rip a few verses out of the entire context (yes, unlike the Qur’an the Bible actually has context!) and run with it.


(e) It’s ruthless to it’s own adherence but especially brutal to it’s enemies.

Ibn: “A man was killed for picking sticks on Sabbath.”


What on earth are you doing. I am seriously wondering why I am even responding to your futile attempts to get the Tenach on par with the Qur’an and the Sunnah. The Shabbat rulings were not only for the Jew but also for the Gentile that lives with the Jews! How is that distinguishing between the two or treating the one more unjustly than the other? And in addition, he was not gathering sticks, he was gathering wood. He was doing that which God told him NOT to do and doing that when God was in the midst of the children of Israel. And also, God had just put forth the ruling of presumptuous sin. He was acting in direct defiance of God and scorned His commandment. As mentioned in the other post about Muhammad and Zaynab, such a person was to be put to death. Also notice that the children of Israel didn’t put him to death immediately, but put him in custody until the ruling of God Himself was made. And God gave the order to put him to death.

Lastly, when the Sanhedrin, the highest Jewish legal court, was installed from the days of the King David always tries to avoid to issue the death penalty. The death penalty is always used as a last resort. In Islam, however, regard for life is not that high by a long shot! It’s own people are put to death without hesitation and enemies are even worse off. As Ibn Ishaq put it when quoting the “rightly guided” Umar saying:

Umar jumped up, walking beside Jandal, saying, ‘Be patient. They are only pagans, and the blood of any of them is no more than the blood of a dog!' (505)


(f) Two-faced: one face when amongst others, another face when amongst each other.

Ibn: “Sabbathi Zevi.”


I am scratching my head and wondering what on earth Shabbatai Tzvi has anything to do with the two-faced nature of Islam. All you are able to show is that once upon a time in Jewish history there was a mentally instable and delusional Jew (hmm… reminds me of a certain Arab that claimed to be a prophet) that claimed to be the promised Messiah who converted to Islam after the sultan gave him the option to either convert or die when he got on the sultan’s nerves. If that is you equation with Islam I will gladly grant you that.

Ibn: “All in all, Nakdimoron's professed religion, not Islam, is the mafia.”


To see Muslims struggle to find things in the Bible that are equal to the atrocious acts of their own religion is almost painful to watch. So please save those efforts to try to vindicate your religion by it’s own merit (because you will need it), without the famous tu-quoque fallacy that Muslims seem to rely on as the live line for their own religion. We don’t need the Qur’an or Islam to explain the pure motives of our Scriptures. Apparently you can’t help but try to point the finger at us when dealing with the cruelty and misery of your own book(s).

So, NO, Judaism or Christianity are NOTHING like your futile religion of which Don Corleone could have easily been the founder of.

Nakdimon