Thursday, November 20, 2008

James White vs. Abdullah al-Andalusi: Is the Doctrine of the Trinity Unbelievable?



For more on Abdullah al-Andalusi, click here.

14 comments:

Carl said...

I just discovered your blog and have added it to my blog's bloglinks. I will check back from time to time. I am appreciative of blogs and websites giving reliable information on Islam. It helps me deal with the numerous Muslims and Muslim pretenders on various Christian Usenet newsgroups who attack Christians and Christianity with the most outlandish accusations and claims. It seems that Muslim leaders teach their followers that deception with Christians (and all unbelievers actually) is not only acceptable but an Islamic virtue. Sad.

BlackBaron said...

Nicely done Dr. White.

THE STUDENT said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
THE STUDENT said...

THANKS TO DAVID WOOD, JAMES WHITE AND SAM SHAMOUN FOR DOING SUCH A GREAT JOB OF DEFENDING THE CHRISTAIN FAITH AND IT IS BECAUSE OF YOU GUYS THAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DEFEND THE TRUTH WITH CONFIDENCE THANKS ALOT AND I WOULD LIKE TO ALSO SAY I CANT WAIT FOR DR NAIK TO ACCEPT A DEBATE SO THE REST OF THE MUSLIM WORLD COULD SEE THAT HE DOESNT STAND A CHANCE UNLESS HE USES DOUBLE STANDARDS LIKE EVERY MUSLIM DO DURING A DEBATE

omoousios said...

The key to Abdulah's choice of faith, as I see it, is what is revealed by the words he uses about Islam: rules, law, politics, society, etc. As most Muslims, he too is lured by the structure of his faith as a system of running all aspects of human life, and not just dealing with religious ones. His "research" has been clearly more influenced by this need rather than the unconditional search for Truth about God, as much "irrational" as the latter might seem.
The truth is that Christian faith is an adventure, which asks from us to sort out "secular" matters by ourselves, (following of course one basic rule: the rule of Love), and may be this one of the reasons why the Christian West has evolved dramatically compared to the Muslim World: we developed resourcefulness unlike the Muslim World which opted a rather rigid model based on their Holy Books.
As for the Holy Trinity, I think that what proves it to be true and consistent with the teaching and the very existence of Christ, is Love itself. Because only the Supreme Love could hold three Persons into one Divine Unity. It is a divine unity of personal relations between the Three which can be achieved only by unconditional love, and that is exactly what Jesus Christ tells us: God is Love, setting an example for us to love one another in order to gain eternal life.
Congratulations to James White by an orthodox Christian who himself is trying hard to "understand" the Mystery of Love: The Mystery of the Trinity.

James said...

I have a couple of questions.

Please can you coherently explain the Trinitarian doctrine that claims that the Son is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, while the Son, the Father and the Holy Spirit are all distinct from each other?

What exactly does 'person' mean in the context of Trinitarian doctrine?

If I am misrepresenting Trinitarian doctrine, then please correct me.

Best wishes
James

James said...

No answer?

James said...

This is an Answering Muslims website.

Who is going to answer this Muslim?

CEH said...

Yes, Jesus the Son, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are both one and at the same time separate persons.
To explain it in simple terms a good comparison would be this: water can appear in either a liquid, solid or gas form. Water, ice and steam are all three very different things yet they are all the same as well. It's the same with God. He is the one and only God yet He has three persons; the Son, Father and Holy Spirit.
We know that they are three separate persons as well as one because the Bible says that they have separate wills, as when Jesus prayed in the garden "not My will but Thine." It also says that they have individual locations, as when all three appear separately at Jesus' baptism. The Bible also tells us that they pray one to another. Again, they are all one but the three separate persons are shown through their distinct wills, locations and prayers to each other.
Jehovah God is one, Deuteronomy 6:3-5 says "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" And 1 John 5:7-8 says "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
One yet three. Some say that the doctrine of the trinity is logically impossible by saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 and never 1 but using the same logic you can also prove the belief in the trinity is true by saying that 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. The trinity can be hard to understand but that is where our faith and trust in the one and only God comes in.

CyclePro said...

another good way to look at the Trinity is to look at the 3 very basic trinities that make up this universe. Space, Time, Matter.

Space exists as Height, Width, Depth, yet all 3 are Space.

Time exists as Past, Present, Future, yet all 3 are Time.

and as was noted prior, Matter exists as Solid, Liquid, and Gas, yet all 3 are matter. And even at the atomic level you could take it further in that an atom has 3 separate but co-equal parts - electrons, protons, and neutrons, yet all 3 are the 1 atom.

I also have a favorite in Color. All visible color, is made up of Red, Blue, & Yellow, yet all 3 are Color.

We have plenty of examples of what can be used to describe the Trinitarian Unity of God.

TPaul said...

CyclePro,
Nicely put, although, we must remember that eventhough there are number of signatures of God in this universe, none can fully explain his true triune nature. That is why no Christian appologist will ever use these examples to prove God's triune nature.
'What' God is,is something our senses cannot fully even fathom now, but we will joyfully have all of eternity to do so.
A far cry from wide eyed virgins, pearly boys, rivers of wine, honey and other corporal pleasures, would'nt you say?

cheers.

eric said...

"Please can you coherently explain the Trinitarian doctrine that claims that the Son is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, while the Son, the Father and the Holy Spirit are all distinct from each other?"

Good question James. I guess the biblical exemple that i assume that even some Muslim could share the belief with those within the JudeoChristian tradition is the concept of Marriage. According to the author of Genesis 2:24 and to Jesus in Mathew 19:5, two flesh before a marriage can become one flesh after marriage. In this logic, it seems that a man who is one flesh, and a woman who is one flesh, when they are together they are not two flesh but one flesh. 1+1=1 (in marriage).

This could be an illustration (illustration is not used as proof but as a mean to illustrate a concept).

So it could be argued that Gen 1:27 may give us the rational to believe that God has used human to illustrate something about Him as it is written: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." could be a good example of reminding the reader that the human male and female were create in God's image, that image on unity in diversity.

Gen 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

"What exactly does 'person' mean in the context of Trinitarian doctrine?"

Person means entity with distinct/individual personality.

eric said...

Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Meaning in this text that a man is one flesh, a woman is one flesh however a man and a woman are not two flesh but one flesh. 1+1=1 (in marriage)

Gen 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

So the illustration God is using to reveal Himself is in the creation of the human male and female. They are two and still they are one.

CristoTeAma said...

To: James.

I personally imagine it as a human itself, we have body, soul and spirit, yet we are one being with 3"structures", ofc God is different in the way each person "structure" has it's own personalaty "characteristic", but they all form part of the same Being, it might be hard to see it the same way, but i recognize that god doesn't have the limits we have. So when the bible says he sends his Spirit to us, it's like i could send my spirit somewhere else, it has his own "personality" yet it's one with me and it has been with me since always. And i'm not saying that Jesus is God's soul, but in order to try to explain it with my example, it would be like God also sent his "soul" (as i said the bible doesn't say anything like it, i'm just trying to make clear my example)to make the new covenant, yet his soul is one with him, he loves his souls because it's been since always with him. So the father would be like the body (ofc this is just an example) yet the body is one with the soul and the spirit, and when the soul is somewhere else and take a lower status (like Jesus taking a servant form) the souls says "the body is greater than i" but it should be understood that since it has this lower status it says that. I see it that way and it works for me, there are many others examples, but i supose this one you haven't heard before.
God Bless You