Tuesday, July 8, 2008

Jamal Badawi vs. Reza Safa: "Can Muslims and Christians Be Friends?"

This debate took place on January 25, 2008, after the Islamic Society of Tulsa challenged Pastor Reza Safa to defend his claims about Islam. The Islamic Society chose Dr. Jamal Badawi, one of Islam's top defenders, to represent them.















Jay said...

Badawi, from what I have seen in his debates and writings, stays focused on the issues and conducts himself as a gentleman during debates.

In this debate his approach seems to have been that the "practice" of Islam is distinct form the "facts" about Islam. Ok, agreed, but you could say this for a lot of things. Since he dodged the hard issues I think that he came off a bit weak.

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

Pastor Safa, theres a guy I would love to Debate, not because he's particularly a challenge but he's like the bi-polar opposite/anti-thesis of myself.

David Wood said...

Are you referring only to the fact that he is a former Shia and that you converted to Shia Islam? Or did you have something else in mind?

Yahya Hayder Seymour said...

Well, he converted to Christianity in Sweden due to Swedish Missionaries, and thats where he got involved in Ministry.

I got involved in Apologetics and Shia Religious Work due to Swedish friends as well haha.

David Wood said...

I didn't know so much was happening in Sweden!

ben malik said...

I am immensely impressed by Reza Safa. I felt he did a great job exposing Badawi's distortions and lies. Badawi has become one of the greatest Muslim deceivers and has mastered the art of khida and taqiyya. Hs ability to conceal and distort is only matched by Shabir Ally.

El-Cid said...

It is quite amusing to see Muslims advance the "linguistic argument", i.e. attempting to explain everything objectionable in the Quran by saying "You just don't understand Arabic".

He also uses the "false context argument". I laugh when I hear Muslims claim Sahih Hadiths are not valid because they somehow contradict a contextual reading of the Quran, when it is infact the Hadith itself that gives context to the Quran.

Next he advance the "historical context argument", alleging that Quranic ayat are "only for a specific place and time", or "only refer to a subset of people". Orthodox Islam is built on the idea that the Quran is the eternal immutable instruction for all mankind.

None of his argumentation can be validated by any orthodox Islamic tradition. It is nothing more than a game of smoke and mirrors.

Unknown said...

I think I have to be fair:

1st: we should give credit to Mr Badawi for to things, first that he stayed withing the context of the daebate, and kept himself respectful. Seconde , for preaching for a peaceful version of islam (Hope he says that to muslims as well, and not just to non muslims)

2nd:Badawi depended o two things to answer and show his case:

a- Translation error, or inaccuracies. And I would say,

-not our fault, or the fault of those who read it
-Arabic words as well many times specially used in the quran, are not clear , and usually needs an explanation through dictionary or commentaries if it is a a whole phrase.
- if the word is inaccurate in translation, then the commentaries , would have explained this. Using tafseer also would help to see if really the words used is in context with tafseer or not. Unfotunately, Dr Safa was true when he said they toned the translation down for the west.

b- Badawi appealedthat some verses were conditional, to what happened in certain conditions.
- So why those verses are still in the quran, which is the holy book for all ages ?!
-why the condition was nt mentioned in the quranic text?!
- to prove this allegation, we should refer to tafseer, but unfortunately, the tafseer is even worse !!!

c- Selective Islam, thats the usual approach for muslim preachers, to keep facts undercover, and do their best to hide them

d- u said that if hadith or seera contradicts quran u will not accept it.
-Though is not a valid approach, but even though. Dont you see that those five things are completely in line together and you are just trying to re-interpret everything. First quran has so many kill ordering verses, then Hadiths, and the seera is full, fourth the islamic history, and fifth is the current situation in islamic world with all these persecution, hate teaching and all form of practices against human rights. Do you think that it is just misinterpretation of a single verse ?!! are you kidding me !!!!

e- if u are saying that u dont want to judge people on their behaviour, yeh that cool , neither do I. But only if it is indvidual practice. I don't know how u c all of this as a coincidence that no-one understand the real islam, when it is clear as crystal ( refer to point d) as for crusades, I would say yes christian practice are so intolerant, if I found whole Europe, and Oriental christians and everyone who believe in christ and the bibe is doing the same, specially if supported by biblical verses and teaching. But thats not the case sir, can't u see the difference !!!

f- If you dont like the current islamic practices, why you are teaching non muslims !!!
- why dont you start fixing , with your colleague from the muslim scholars, to teach the right islam, And Put your own tafseer, and interpretation of verses to make it the standard for muslims.
- Why dont you preach those muslims first in the KSA , islam and all other islamic countries.
- Why dont you rpomote this so called islamic love into your own countries first. are you preaching in north america !!! havent u seen that islamic countries all failed!!! Cant u really see that countries that embraced christianity or even any other religion are having better life !!!
fix your own house first sir, if u saying they were all wrong , correct them then come talk to us.

again, thank you Dr Badawi, that you stayed within the topic, and that you showed the christian point of view very well, and didnt do like other muslim who try to mutilae christian text who are not seeking the truth.

Unknown said...

g- You said that war in islam is allowed only for two, which is basically defense.
- So why cant we see the word defense in these verses, or anywhere in theri territories ?!!
- is this you own interpretations ?!! from where did u come up with is meaning ?! cause if it is from tafseer books, trust me those books have even worse than the word kill.
-on what basis do u select certain tafseer and reject the other. Dont tell me if it contradicts the quran, cause here there is two points. First quran contradicts itself. Second , All the killing order verses are crystal clrea as I said.

h- U keep saying that what critics do is that they take text out f context from the quran. Havent you read your quran?!! do u think that the quran is consistent, or having a sold context ?!! are you kidding me ?!! read any sura, u will find, there is no historical chronolgy, and the sura, may even mention many unrelated stories in biased order. Is there a complete full story in the quran?!! cant u c the repitions of many stoies in the quran ?!! like adam, jesus ?!! what I am saying is that, if u even took the whole sura, u will find that the presence of many verses are out of context !!!

i- Just offtopic, is gambling allowed in islam ?!! cause u said a million dollar , and other millions ... just wondering ;)

3rd To Pastor Safa:
a- Gbu , I liked your prayer, and that you prayed for everyone. GBU

b- I liked your story so much, specially when u heard God... I really wanted to know more about it. and stories about your missionaries.

c- I like your way of presentation, which showed the spritual dimension of christianity, specially that I believe that prayers are powerful more than saying tons of words in a debate. that was cool.

4th: NOTEs:
a- The quran has so many verses not just 1 or 2 or even 10 , but so many more, and all about Fight, Kill, Force ...etc etc ... such terms are not even found in army books. It is only for terrorist i guess.

B- I think if any hitler and sadam were nazis, and they persecuted and excuted people. Muhammed supased everyone, he was the most successful to excute and perish all christians , jews, pagans from Arabia (about one third of america) WOW, and not stopped at this point, he reached till spain !!! and till now no christians left in tunisia, yemen ...etc !!! thats incredible, I think all the world should sue muhammed and islam as a criminal war, and stop such intolerant satanic faith. Even satan wasnt as succeful as muhammed to excute whole nations as he did !!!

c- Has anyone noticed the difference: muslims usually hide facts that muhammed did the worst mistakes ever, kiiling, adultery, robbery, forgery ..etc and muslims never had the courage to admit , and always put explanation for hese stories. cause they know very well, that such a things, will make him a very untrusted man who claimed prophet cause there is not a real need for his religion. On the contrary, Christians and also jews never were ashamed to mentioned several mistakes, even big ones for prophets and apostles, without having any problem preaching for their faitht to the whole world. isnt that interesting?!! i would say how powerful the ground christianity stands upon !!

Unknown said...

I find it interesting to hear from Dr. Badawi concerning the Crusade; talking about Christian singing the song "Marching Onward Christian soldiers". I think many people forget why the "CRUSADE"?. If we would like to ask honest question to ourself..
1) Why did the Crusade started?
2) What happened to the west if the crusade did not took place?
3) Who is to blame for the Crusade?

I don't deny the brutality of those who called themself christian during that time; taking matters into their own hand without even look into the scriptures and make a right judgment.
Everytime muslim talk about injustice they always refer to the event of the crusade. Christian is to be blame for the bloodshed. Never occured into their mind what happened before the crusade.

Gregory said...

Boy, oh boy... That muslim is an expert at lying...Listen to what he said an infidel is......What a lying plick.(I write chinese sometimes).And infidel is ANYONE who doesn't believe in the allah or his fool muhammad.

Unknown said...

Reza Safa did very well, I watched a few debates, he is one of the best I have seen, especially since Badawi is one of the best islamic deceivers. Islam stands and falls on the life and biography of their own prophet! Whoever studies, not history, but haddiths cannot but be disgusted by this man. He was cruel (story on those poor people who stole his camels), he was vindictive, he was a theif, he was a liar, did not keep his word, he did not respect his own law, he took his son s wife(not for charitable reasons)etc etc, he had 14 wives(concubines). Muslims say: but Salomon had 1000 wives...ok, but we are talking about the originator of islam!! So let s compare Jesus and Mohammed, and not Salomon and Mohammed! apples and apples... Islam is a compound of jewish and christian folk tales, Shabir Ally confirmed that! Badawi confirmed there was a pagan deity- Allah, worshipped in Arabia and even in Mecca, Mohammed s father was a "slave of Allah", Reza proved Muslims practice all pagan rites practiced in the pre islamic arabia. All islamic nations have a moon on their national flags, crescent moon, crescent moon was worshipped in pagan Arabia. Quran also is illigible without haddiths, therefore haddith are more than just a secondary source. They tell us about the author of the Quran, and that is basically all we need to know. We are not talking here of just any muslim, we are talking about the originator of Islam.