Friday, March 28, 2008

Geert Wilders's "Fitna"

As you can see in my previous post, Live Leak has removed the video due to death threats from Muslims (who are upset that Islam is being portrayed as violent and intolerant). Here's the same video on Google Video. I suspect it will be removed soon due to further death threats.

(Note: Those who view this film should keep in mind the difference between "Islam" and "Muslims." Muslims are people, and many Muslims despise the acts portrayed in this film. Islam is the religion taught by Muhammad. Muhammad's teachings are the source of many of the world's ills. However, we must not forget that the Muslims we encounter often do not live according to Muhammad's standards, but far above them.)

15 comments:

sundoulos said...

Muslims are upset that they are portrayed as violent and intolerant so they make death threats. Hmmm, do they not understand the contradiction, that by their response they are making the same point as the video? How sad to be so blinded by sin and Satan.

Sunil said...

Majority of muslims are not like what is shown in the video due to their God given moral conscience (the God of OT/NT). The problem here is that they cannot distance themselves from the life/message/actions of Muhammad and his followers and rightly guided Caliphs etc either. This presents a real dilemma for many. This also explains why the clergy and the coservative/orthodox are likely to support the global armed jihad etc while ordinary muslims (the majority) are more sensible.

Ama do Hawu said...

In Indonesia, even Multiply, rapidshare, and Rapidshare are banned by some ISPs for a time being because these sites contain "Fitna".

I tend to think that the issue tend to be politicized now.

In Indonesia, we saw things like what are shown in "Fitna" two years back on an internet discussion forum. The internet forum was a Christian one but allowed Moslems to participate. Not so much protest were raised from the moslems. I am wondering what happens now.

Paijo (Indonesia)

Bassam said...

a Muslim's response http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=111922&ln=eng

Sunil said...

>> a Muslim's response http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=111922&ln=eng

Much of the response is rhetoric and fury rather than substance. All that the writer needs to do is to show that the events/acts shown in the movie, done in the name of islam are actually anti-islamic (and condemn the events). A brief/mild/weak attempt at theological defense is made in point four (point 1 under fourth), but it covers only two points. It is claimed that the violence is defensive, but the islamic theology/history as followed and acted by Muhammad, his followers, rightly guided Caliphs etc shows that it is not just defensive, but offensive - forming religion based communal armies and going all out on wars on the nations and to rule them under islam. The one point good in the article is seen in point nine, where the writer asks muslims to refrain from destruction of property and bloodshed. That is probably the most difficult part, considering the nature of islamic theology/history and its articulation by various influential groups.

paramitha said...

I'm a moslem and I really really upset for this Fitna movie or any other negative comment for Islam and Moslems..
I've learn Islam since I was kid, and my suggestion is: read Qur'an as a whole..
Moslems doesn't spread death threats!!
So, for everybody who doesn't understand much about Islam, please don't say a word..
Don't give any comment.. Coz you're about to make this world worst by giving nothing but lie..
does everybody in this world still remember about the massive assasinations of moslem Bosnia..? how bout that? who's the satan now?

Sunil said...

paramitha,

>> I really really upset for this Fitna movie or any other negative comment for Islam and Moslems..


If you think that the events/acts shown in the movie which are done in the name of islam are actually against islamic theology/history, you need to be upset at the misuse/abuse of religion (instead of being upset about the movie). All you need to do is to explain how/why such actions are against islamic theology/history. Unfortunately, there is hardly anyone doing that.

>> my suggestion is: read Qur'an as a whole..

Coult it be that it is you who need to read and understand more about islamic theology/history? And also read the moral commandments, salvation, doctrine of Jesus and judge if there is any possibility that a lone alleged prophet violates and works against all the God's prophets and the Scriptures (which are endorsed by all the prophets)? If the Jesus of NT is right, then Muhammad is not a true prophet, because Muhammad and the religion he started violate the life/message/teachings of Jesus.

Ama do Hawu said...

Many Muslims in Indonesia are really stupid. Multiply, Youtube, and Rapidshare are banned again. I could not access my Multiply today.

Really no freedom here.

Paijo (Indonesia)

asy said...

Bismillah hirrahma nirrah heem.
Let’s discuss the verses of Quran mentioned in the Geert Wilders’ Video. Does these actually showing the same meaning??
Before going to discuss The verses in detail. Let me tell you few examples to explain what meaning we can get quoting something out of context……
In Islam, on every muslim its compulsory to offer prayer five times a day. Allah says in Quran.
002.238 Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).
But if a person who is against offering Prayer he can say ….OHH I will not offer Prayer because Allah has made it Forbidden AND QURAN EXPLAIN TO US, “DON’T OFFER PRAYER!” He can quote following verse from Quran.
004.043 O ye who believe! Approach not prayers!!!
Anybody can take such wording out of context from Quran and say. Don’t pray!!! Quran has forbidden it.
Will you believe on such kind of Person Quoting from Quran???????
Actually Allah is saying in this verse; Don’t go near Prayer if you not fulfill few requirements until you clean.
004.043 O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. ….
SO WE CAN GET ANY MEANING FROM ANY BOOK IF QOUTING OUT OF CONTEXT.
LET ME SAY AGAIN
WE CAN GET ANY MEANING FROM ANY BOOK IF QOUTING OUT OF CONTEXT.
We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: "Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them". Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.
Lets Discuss the verses used in the Video.
Two verses he took from Surah Al-Anfal (surah # 8)

It was revealed in 2 A. H. after the Battle of Badr, the first battle between Islam and kufr. As it contains a detailed and comprehensive review of the Battle, it appears that most probably it was revealed at one and the same time.
Muslim were being attacked with 1000 armed person from Makka city and they meet with Muslims in the battlefield of Badar near Madina City. Muslim were only 313 among them only 70 were equipped with sword and rest was only holding sticks, Only 2 horses and 70 camel. It was very little and ill-armed army who gave very bad defeat to Kaffir of Makka who attacked Muslim fully equipped and full of pride.
This surah is mentioning all about this Badar War. Many commandments for the soldiers and for the army commander.
Geert Wilders used this surah and pick verses which Allah send down during battle field of Badar to boost the mural of soldiers.
At the start of battlefield Prophet (s.a.w) was making lot of Prays from Allah for His help. Allah mention that in the start of surah , verse 9 and 10
On reaching the verse 15 and 16 Allah gave the following Commandments to the companion of Prophet (s.a.w) to don’t be scared , don’t show your back, fight. Just like any Army General give such commandant to his soldiers. Allah says.
008.015 O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array of Battle, never turn your backs to them.
008.016 If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!
In all this surah the commandments and techniques of war has been briefly explained by Allah. Then by Reaching the verse 39, (which is used in the video) Allah say to the companion Prophet (s.a.w) that fight and kill them don’t be coward. Now by Reaching this verse 39 Allah says.
008.039 And fight them on until there is no more tumult/oppression (Fitna), and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
The verse clearly speaking by itself and meaning is so clear. Wilder , so cleverly not only pick this verse from whole commandments but also only a part of this verse. He even not used full verse. Because if he use full verse the verse itself explaining about “cease of war”, This war is allowed only until they “cease”, if they not cease the war then keep on fight and kill them.
Now we keep going ahead of the surah.
By Reaching Verse 46 and 47, Allah giving commandments to the companion of Prophet s.a.w The be Firm in war and keep remembrance of Allah and keep obeying the Prophet as Army General so that you remain like a unit in Battlefield.
After many commandments regarding battlefield one most important commandment was to collect maximum possible power with weapon, horses etc so that when next time this kind of attack on city comes your position in equipment and weapon should not be that weak.
Allah says in verse 60
008.060 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah does know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
And next verse Allah explain more details. Inclined towards PEACE!!! if the enemy also incline towards Peace.
008.061 But if the enemy incline towards peace, do incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Now Wilder only pick verse 60 for that video proving some surprise thing from it. Totally different kind of meaning he is wishing to Get from this verse totally out of context.
We can only Pray…O Allah give them light of Islam so that they can also prosper.

Lets talk about remaining three verses used in the Video
Chapter 47 Surah Muhammad Verse number 4

Wilder very cleverly again pick few initial wording of the verse to completely change the whole meaning of verse. Getting the surprise meaning from it.
The translation of some part of the verse he used in video is as under.

“Therefore when you meet the unbelievers, Smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them bind a bound firmly on them“
Now the exact verse with exact translation is as under.

So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, smite the necks; then, when you have overcome them, make (them) prisoners, and afterwards (set them free) as a favour or for ransom till the war lay down its burdens…..47:4

This passage mentions the only case in which prisoners of war can be taken, and thus condemns the practice of slavery, according to which men could be seized anywhere and sold into slavery. Here we are told that prisoners of war can only be taken after meeting an enemy in regular battle, and even in that case they must be set free, either as a favour or after taking ransom. It was the former of these alternatives that the Holy Prophet adopted in most cases; for instance, in the case of the prisoners of the Bani Musaliq war, in which a hundred families were set at liberty, and in the case of Hawazin war, in which fully six thousand prisoners of war were released merely as an act of favour. Only in the case of the seventy prisoners taken at Badr war, where there is mention of redemption having been taken, but this was when Islam was very weak and the powerful enemy was determined to crush it
Anybody can clearly see what actually the verse explaining is good for humanity but Wilder use the verse as if it is against humanity, that what we can do if quoting out of context.

The remaining two verses were taken by Wilder from Chapter 4 Surah An-Nisah

004.056 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

I thing if a person have little knowledge about Islam or even a child can understand that this verse is not related about worldly life its about Hereafter. Verse saying that those who will not believe in Allah, The only Lord of Worlds, such persons will be put in Hell Fire. This is same message which is being given by all Messengers including Moses and Jesus and Jews and Christian believe in it.
What a surprise that “Mr” Wilder use such verse to prove islam promote violence, which is clearly not the meaning of the verse.

Last verse used in the video by Wilder is verse number 89 chapter 4 Surah An-Nisah

This Verse is actually against Wilder’s ideology but still so silliness he is using the verse which actually showing great favor for humanity. its talking about hypocrites, a hypocrite is just like a spy who apparently look devotee or patriot but actually he is supporter of enemy. So what is the ruling for that kind of persons in Islam? Allah explaining this in the following verses.

004.088 Why should you, then, be two parties in relation to the hypocrites while Allah has made them return (to disbelief) for what they have earned? Do you desire to guide him whom Allah leaves in error? And whomsoever Allah leaves in error thou canst not find a way for him
004.089 They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved so that you might be on the same level; so take not from among them friends until they flee (their homes) in Allah’s way. Then if they turn back (to hostility), seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take no friend nor helper from among them,
004.090 Except those who join a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and fight you not and offer you peace, then Allah allows you no way against them (to war against them)

The verses showing clearly that even hypocrites (Munafiq) were not to be killed or fought against if they refrained from fighting, though they may have gone over to disbelief after accepting Islam. Note also that here Allah clearly commanded that if any people offered peace, they were not to be fought against.

Islam is a complete way of life and a beautiful religion. We pray for all those who still not believe that may Allah let them become honest with themselves and help them to see the light of Islam before their death.

Sunil said...

asy,

>> WE CAN GET ANY MEANING FROM ANY BOOK IF QOUTING OUT OF CONTEXT.

It is true that one may quote out of context. That is why it is important to have a comprehensive look at the entire life/message/theology/history to get the full picture. Could it be that the people who quote the earlier peaceful meccan suras (and claim that it is representative of message of Muhammad) are quoting out of context?

>> Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher.

Let us find a better analogy. If a person starts a new religion called A, sets up a religion based private army, indulges in looting caravans, sets up a A vs non-A communal warfare situation, makes statements such as those seen in the video with reference to non-A, gives his final message to his followers to subdue/humiliate/conquer non-A and establish rule of A through religious warfare (which is then carried out by his trusted followers and leaders after him), that is really a lot different from the vietnam example you gave. It is worse if A claims to be a continuity of a prophet whose commanments/principles are completely violated by the founder of the new religion.

>> Islam is a complete way of life..

yes, but is it truly from the True God of OT/NT/Jesus? It violates and goes against the God of OT/NT/Jesus and all the prophets.

Lorna said...

Hi, I am Christian.
I wonder what do you think as a Muslim about the banning of the movie FITNA ? Do u think it is necessary to do? i wonder why do Muslims start to demonstrate, react so extremely against that movie, while Christian's movie such as The Davinci Code wasn't banned at all?
And also, why if I watch that movie with my Muslim friend, she just reject and refuse the fact that what it is showed in the movie is true? Do you think there is something fake in the movie? But i am really pleased that you actually confess that there are some versus like that in the Quran which needs to be explained to more people.
Finally, why Muslims never want to confess that everything is happened, Bomb bali, the Bomber even said that " Killed those bad people is a short way to the Heaven, is just worthy to kill people as long as it is for GOD"
I wonder which God who wants to their people kill unbelievers?

Sunil said...

Lorna,

Most muslims are not used to open debates, discussion, critical questioning of faith etc. They are taught that such things are worthy of death penalty. With the information revolution and globalization in the past few decades, the exposure to the global world has been a shock to them. I think and hope that they will soon get over it and be willing to critically examine their beliefs and its basis (or lack of appropirate basis/root/authenticity).

A.Ammari said...

Islamic extremism: Killing people to fulfill 'Martyrdom ambitions'!!
Take a look!

Claude said...

Asy,
“This war is allowed only until they “cease”, if they not cease the war then keep on fight and kill them.”

“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do incline towards peace, and trust in Allah.”

In a war there are two sides. Here, you presuppose that the evil-doers were Jews, Christians, polytheists, all the “ennemies” of Allah and Muhammad. You presuppose that Muslims were victims and not agressors. Christians, Jews and Polytheists were there centuries before Muhammad. It was the aggressive and intolerant Muhammad who declared them war because they refused to confess he was the prophet of God. Muhammad had no right to do so. Muslims were agressors. And Muslims agressors wanted anything but submission from their “ennemies”: arms submission and faitht submission. If Muhammad had use persuasion instead of coercision, he very well knows that he would have failed to convert people. Almost everybody was laughting at him. He used terror instead. Terror and booty.

Asy, you just think falsely, as Muhammad did, that Islam is trutht and all what is outside Islam is falsehood and consequently, that “ennemies” of Islam must surrender to “the light of Islam before their death.” This is exactly what Wilders denounces. This is the teaching of the Quran and the cause of intolerance and terrorism. Islam is a jumble of simplistic and totalitarist religious beliefs and imperialist politic. There can’t be more lethal mixture.

What is the result ? Terrorism, atrocities, cruelness, miseries. Fathers kill their daughters, husbands kill their wives, Sunnis kill Chiites, terrorists blast themselves in marketplaces and mosques, women are lapidated, apostates are killed, no education, no liberty of thinking, no democraty, children are brainwashed and exploited by Imams and immolated to Allah, Muslims are mislead and decieved. etc. etc.

Who suffers and will suffer more ? Muslims themselves. Their sabers turn against themselves. This is unavoidable. This is the “light of Islam” you want Humanity to share ? No thanks ! Keep your spendid totalitarist religion for yourself. I know, I don’t understand. But did you ever ask yourself what may be wrong with Islam ? This idea can’t even glide the surface of your mind. It should.

Your dream of a Humanity under the submission of Allah-Muhamad will reveal itself to be a nightmare. Just think a little bit. You can’t homogenise humanity. Diversity is what makes the living beauty of all things. This includes diversity of beliefs. You think you are promoting life but you are promoting death. And you even don’t realize. You and me are not in the same world. You are stuggling with nightmarish beliefs.Wake up !

Kufar Forever said...

@ asy:
47:4 So when you meet (IN BATTLE) those who disbelieve, smite the necks; then, when you have overcome them, make (them) prisoners, and afterwards (set them free) as a favour or for ransom till the war lay down its burdens…..
Which translatot are you quoting? The words (IN BATTLE) are not there in the arabic verse. Actually Geert vilders did quote the correct verse. better learn arabic