Sunday, August 28, 2016

Debate: What Does the Qur'an and the Islamic Traditions Say About the Bible? (Luis Dizon vs. Ijaz Ahmad)

On August 13, 2016 there was a debate held in Toronto, Canada between Luis Dizon of Nicene International Ministries, and Ijaz Ahmad of Calling Christians. The debate topic was on what the Qur'an and the Islamic Traditions say about the Bible. Does the Qu'ran and other Islamic texts charge the Jews and Christians with corruption of the text of the Bible (tahrif al-nass), or with corrupting the meaning of the biblical texts (tahrif al-mana)? Luis Dizon is a former seminary student of mine and a brilliant individual. He has learned the Arabic language and can read and recite the Qur'an in Arabic. Luis has also debated Shabir Ally, who incidentally also taught Arabic to Luis. I believe Luis is and will be an effective apologist in outreach to Muslims. Please pray for Luis. The audio quality is not the best at times, but this is the only video available that addresses this debate topic. For Luis' article on 'Muslim Writers on Tahrif [Corruption]' see here.

**UPDATE: An improved version of this debate with better sound quality has just been posted. You can access the improved video below.


Fisher said...

Hey Dr. Costa. Thank you for your kind words and endorsement. I just want to add that if anyone wants to see the debate notes and powerpoint slides that I used in this debate, I posted them on my website here:

Ordinary Logic said...

There are lot to be said but i'll try to primarily focus upon several 'missed' opportunities which should have been delivered by Luis .

1) Although Luis is truly correct about how Quran & islamic traditions in certain occasions rely on the Bible in order to make certain subjects within Quran to be comprehensible to understand however Luis didn't give the specifics when ijaz demanded some real proofs to support Luis's argument about specific parts within Quran where it relies significantly upon the bible.

Factually here are two things in Quran which undeniably relies SOLELY on Bible and without bible it will be impossible to know what's being described in Quran concerning these subjects :

The first is the name of Joseph's brother that is Benjamin , every time Benjamin is mentioned in Quran, in reality its name will always being put within brackets meaning its' not written in Quran original text. One plain undeniable fact is THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO INFO ABOUT ANYONE NAME BENJAMIN in Quran nor 'Authentic' Hadith, while sadly only in just few INAUTHENTIC (unreliable to be exact) traditions where Benjamin is mentioned to identified the UNNAMED PERSON whose also Joseph's brother in Quran at Sura Yusuf. Another crucial point is even this inauthentic tradition itself is called by muslim as Israiliyat meaning DERIVES FROM BIBLES of ISRAELIS &CHRISTIAN.

Secondly, is the names of two sons of Adam Cain and Abel (in Islam Qabeel and Habeel) in Quran which are always being put in bracket when we read the standardized Quran because precisely has the same dilemma for having no infos nor references about any name of Adam's son both in Quran and Authentic Hadiths. Yet ALL muslim's scholars agree both names are their REAL NAMES although strangely derive solely from Israiliyat tradition which is the 'supposedly corrupted' Bible.

***Because Bible is the only sole reference in this matter so If Bible had been corrupted then logically there would've been no reason at all to identify Benjamin as the real name of this unnamed brother of Joseph in Quran at Surah Yusuf nor to identify the unnamed sons of Adam as Qayn/Qabeel and Habeel at Surah Al-Maidah in Quran . Oddly enough fact shows all muslim scholars validate those 'biblical' names to be true, for this reason self-contradictory is the only logical definition toward any muslim who accuses bible as corrupt.

Beside those two significant things here are some list of things not clear in Quran which need further explanation from hadith , but very noticeable those hadiths themselves definitely have copied things strictly from Bible.

-Noah's son are mentioned but remain nameless in Quran , their 'biblical' names Shem, Ham and Japhet are revealed in some transmitted islamic tradition (i don't know authentic or not).

- Adams and Abraham's wife are mentioned in Quran without name, their 'biblical' names Eve and Sarah appeared only in authentic hadiths

- The story of creation of woman in the supposedly complete & perfect Quran, is incomplete, need to be perfected by the supposedly less perfect book (hadith) where some authentic hadith reveals the 'biblical' story how woman was created from man's rib.

Muslim might argue that hadiths clarify all concerning those list of particular matter above , however it would just confirm that a) Quran can't stand on its own to prove the claim of being the Perfect Guide toward other books moreover in fact reality shows quran is the one which needs 'guidance and perfection' from other books. (b) Since Bible is far older than hadiths and not to mention Bible materials had already been circling around the nations including arabian peninsula even before Muhammad's birth, then the most logical conclusion of course is hadiths were copying straight from bible.

Reg Singh said...

Ijaz was asked (1hr 46mins) about the Quran's claim to confirm the Torah. He replied that “the Quran confirms the Torah that Allah revealed”. In other words he is saying that the Quran does not claim to confirm the seventh century Torah.

Yet look carefully at the following verse where Allah is addressing seventh century Jews.

Quran 6:91. No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "(Allah) (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

Now for SEVENTH CENTURY Jews to make into sheets the Book which Moses brought, conceal much of the Book which Moses brought and learn that which neither they nor their fathers knew, from the Book which Moses brought, THEY MUST HAVE HAD THE BOOK WHICH MOSES BROUGHT.

Many other verses can be cited where the Quran recognises the authenticity of the seventh century Torah

Jo Jo said...

Congrats to Luis! you are a natural and obviously greatly gifted. You seemed to do quite well and its very exciting to hear you speak. One suggestion to you, Jonathan and others who debate for Christ. I suggest you guys not even go to a debate unless a sound engineer who knows what they're doing is going to record it correctly. If that is not completely set up in advance then don't go. Its not that hard in this day and age to do. So sad that the audio here is from a mic set up in the room, which had horrible acoustics, instead of sending the mic signals straight into the board and then into a computer for recording, easily monitored by headphones. If the Mosques involved can't handle the tech, get a hold of a qualified church nearby that will help. Do the sound check prep etc before the debate. It'll be worth it. These videos are watched by thousands. Might as well do the video w excellence too.

But, by all means keep debating. thank you for you work. Its greatly needed and appreciated. Very encouraging!

Ordinary Logic said...

2) Even when we have to follow islamic narrative, Quran and hadith both do verify that for a lengthy period of 600 years starting from Jesus until time of Muhammad there had been AUTHENTIC GOSPEL circling around the known world at that time.

Two significant islamic evidences supporting this matter are FIRST CENTURY Jesus's Gospel as being stated in Sura 5v46; And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the GOSPEL .

And 6th CENTURY WARAQA'S GOSPEL as being stated in authentic Hadith Sahih Bukhari Volume 1 BOOK 1 Number 3; Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah WISHED HIM TO WRITE .

Special note for 6th CE Waraqa's Gospel, If Waraqa had written a 'corrupted version' of Gospel then certainly it would've made Allah as THE AUTHOR or at least THE ENCOURAGER of corruption since Sahih Bukhari clearly stated that ALLAH WISHED WARAQA TO WRITE (The Gospel).

Second problem for muslim here is, how could this 'authentic' Gospel which had been preserved and existed in such a lengthy period of 600 years from the time of Jesus till Muhammad, then suddenly and MAGICALLY disappeared ?

Third problem and worse for muslim, confronted with the fact that ALLAH INTENTIONALLY HAS PRESERVED tremendous number of 'supposedly corrupted' ancient Gospels dated from around 2th CE (papyri form) and 4th CE(full codex manuscript form) all the way to many numbers of Gospel manuscripts at time of Muhamad at 6Th CE as muslim like to claim while at the same time Allah INTENTIONALLY also has LEFT NONE of the 'supposedly authentic' Gospel for muslim then a conscious healthy minded muslim should ask : Is this Allah a God or a JOKER??

Mari Kaimo said...

I agree 100% with Jo Jo! Yes, please do insist that a good sound engineer always be present to record your debates, so that your many hours spent studying and preparing can be maximized. There are many thousands of us who will never be able to attend these debates in person, and these videos do serve as a great teaching (and reaching) tool when properly recorded

Mari Kaimo said...

Btw, Luis, I commend you for your great patience dealing with Ijaz. Having dealt with him in the past, I am aware of how much restraint you demonstrated towards him. You and Dr Tony both! 😊

Reg Singh said...

It is very careless of organisers to spoil a debate through poor audio. Ijaz having a voice lacking "edge" did not help either.

shaikh shehraja said...

Ijaz by far is the worst speaker. Looks like hes only reading out of pages of dissertation. He didnt come to Debate but only to read out few pages of his poor findings. Brother TOny this debate was wasted just because of IJAZ

Jo Jo said...

I would love to hear Luis debate on this again with someone different. Its a great topic and the info Luis presents needs to be restated in a better venue etc. Luis, I'm a fan. Keep lifting up Jesus! So So encouraging!

Fisher said...

Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback. A version of the video with better audio has just been put up. Hopefully that will make up for the initial release. Also, to the person suggesting that I need to re-do this debate with a different Muslim apologist--I would be happy to, if anyone can set one up for me.