Friday, March 21, 2014

Devout Muslimah Zena Khan Tries to Defend Muhammad by Attacking Mary, Ends Up Refuting Islam

According to Islam's most trusted sources, Muhammad had sex with a nine-year-old girl. This isn't simply some peculiar historical fact, however. Because the Qur'an affirms Muhammad as the pattern of conduct for Muslims (33:21), little girls around the world are being forced into marriage even in our time.

Clearly, some non-Muslims (myself included) want to address this issue, both as a criticism of Muhammad and as a call for reform. Muslims, of course, want to defend their prophet. But sometimes, in their zeal to deflect criticism of Muhammad, they end up attacking Islam.

Take, for instance, our Muslim friend Zena Khan. Earlier today, on Facebook, Zena tried to defend Muhammad with the following post:

If you're new to the world of Islamic apologetics, you may be wondering where Muslims are getting the claim that Joseph was 90 years old (since the Bible doesn't give the age of Joseph or Mary). The source is an extraordinarily late and absurdly contrived text called "The History of Joseph the Carpenter." But our Muslim friends don't know this, because they typically pass on a link without bothering to check the source. So we have to ask them for the source in order to get them to dig a little deeper.

Zena went on to try to explain the obvious, namely, that she is simply trying to deflect criticism of Muhammad:

Naturally, I had to point out that, even if her claim were correct, this wouldn't have much to do with Muhammad's relationship with Aisha:

On to more pressing matters, Zena finally looked up the ultimate source of her claim:

So Zena's source is a 6th or 7th century text. But Zena's got another problem.

After this, I tried to introduce Zena to the concept of consistency, but she ignored it:

So I went back to showing Zena her conundrum. She was defending a text that contradicts the Qur'an:

Interestingly, when I drew a distinction between first-century texts and texts from much, much later, Zena accused Christians of simply using whatever text is most convenient for us:

My response was lost on her:

But by now, Zena had already undermined her religion (both in terms of history and in terms of methodology):

To hammer the point home:

Let's sum up before the practical application.

(1) Muhammad's sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl has led to criticism of Islam.
(2) Muslims try to deflect this criticism by arguing that Mary was only a few years older than Aisha when she married Joseph, who was 90 at the time.
(3) Those extra few years, of course, are when girls typically go through puberty, so it isn't clear how this response helps Islam.
(4) Nevertheless, since the Bible doesn't say how old Mary and Joseph were, Muslims go to a 6th or 7th century text to defend their claim about Mary and Joseph (which they desperately need, in order to deflect criticism of Muhammad).
(5) We point out the obvious problems with appealing to such a late text.
(6) This forces Muslims to defend the text as historically reliable.
(7) In defending the text as historically reliable, they undermine their own historical methodology (because they would never go with such a late text to learn about Muhammad, and they routinely reject their own sources as fabrications).
(8) Once they have put their foot down and declared the text reliable, we draw attention to the fact that the text thoroughly contradicts the Qur'an.
(9) Hence, our Muslim friends have refuted Islam for us!

The practical application is this. No Christian source prior to the time of Muhammad agrees with Muhammad's teachings about Jesus. But Muslims like to go to certain Christian texts (whether orthodox or heretical) without understanding the texts, in an effort to find details that can be used to support Islam. When we challenge the reliability of these texts, Muslims will defend their reliability, because that's the basis of their defense of Muhammad's claims. Once the defense is made, it's time to show them that the text undermines Islam.

The goal is to show our Muslim friends that history does not support Islam, and that Islam forces its adherents to adopt the most radically inconsistent and illogical methodology imaginable to defend their prophet.


Anonymous said...

6 to 7 centuries is a looong time to suddenly write something as proof about Jesus. Something that was never heard of before and not sanctioned as true by Christians or by Christianity.

Meanwhile THEIR trusted Sunnah says that Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old child, and by Islamic lunar years she was really EIGHT, not 9.

There is a big difference between 8 year old girl and a 12 year old physically, and that is it was true.

Tom said...

Thanks again, brother David, I am also learning, as when muslim's quote Bart Erhman, I would ask them, "What is Bart's view on the crucifixion of Jesus Christ"?
:) love it!

Unknown said...

Hello David.I were just wondering what you have to say about this article. And if you could make a video or something about it, Ia find it very fascinating as a christian.
It's about verses in the talmud wich says that something very peculiar happened, during the last 40 years the temple stood. I would like to know what you and sam shamoun think about it. So if you could answer me, that would be great :)
Here is the link:

Anonymous said...

Even if Joseph was 90 when he married Mary she had past puberty, they didn't had sex until after the birth of Jesus and Joseph is a minor figure in the Bible, not the example of conduct that Christians are meant to emulate as closely as possible.

Trying to compare Joseph with muhammad, who married and had sex with a prepubescent girl and is presented as the example to follow, and presenting them as equivalents is so incredibly fallacious and stupid that only muslims fall for it since they need to grasp at any straw they can find to defend their cause.

blahblahblah said...

Hold on a min,isn't the real issue here an old man having sex with a little child?
What is the "common terms" we have in this story.
don't we both agree that Mary was VIRGIN ? yet had a normal Jewish wedding after pubity and is the perfect woman according to the Koran,there's a slam dunk from the off,no argument here at all

Dk said...

My friend Jose Joesph a staunch Christian just wrote: "At the time of Mary's conception and afterwards....Joesph was 21 and Mary was 18". Therefore since nothing in history contradicts this fact, it MUST be true! (using Zena's reasoning).

No wonder why Mohammed thought Muslim women were "intellectually deficient in matters of religion". Because they have utterly no CLUE how to reason.

To further add, Zena was the only one picking history to suit her self, as she was cherry picking which texts were true and false.

And she clearly lied and exclaimed the priests were modifying their religion to be more presentable, when she has not shown ANY priest wrote the Bible, or a heretical work outside the Bible. She has not shown ANY Christian in history accepted the source she appeals to yet claims Priests were modifying the information. In order for that to be true, you have to show the original was part of Christian teaching, yet she has not shown this.

The other huge clue she missed is that the holy spirit is not a human with a penis who had sexual intercourse with Mary and then legalized this practice for all ages to come within Christianity!

No, that would be Mohammed who was indeed a human with a penis who legalized child marriages for all ages to come.

Oh yeah not to mention this is simply a case of attempted Tu Quoqe fallacy...

These Muslimahs who defend pedophilia make me sick. I pray that her child is set free from this burden left upon humanity by Mohammed.

1389 said...

Orthodox Christian tradition holds that Mary was 13 at the time of the Annunciation, and that Joseph the Betrothed was a widower over eighty years of age who had fathered children from a previous marriage. Joseph became betrothed to, but never consummated marriage with, Mary, in order to protect her.

Orthodox Christian doctrine also holds that Mary was a virgin and remained so her entire lifetime. Therefore, any comparison with Aisha is invalid.

Unknown said...

David Wood why are you saying that islam is false when she is not talking about that

David Wood said...

She most certainly was talking about a certain book being reliable. And since she claims that this book is reliable, Islam must be false, since this book contradicts Islam.

Unknown said...

David Wood by saying that you are contradicting yourself and your colleagues(sam shamoun and pastor jeseph and others) because you people are always using the islamic books (QURAN and HADITH) to prove that ISLAM is a false religion and that the QURAN is not the word of GOD and that the PROPHET MUHAMMED (PBUH) is not a PROPHET send by GOD but when you read the ISLAMIC BOOKS (QURAN the word of the ALMIGHTY GOD and the HADITH THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHET OF GOD MUHAMMED (PBUH))THOSE BOOKS (THE ISLAMIC BOOKS) shows that ISLAM IS THE ONLY TRUE RELIGION OF GOD ALMIGHTY AND THAT THE QURAN IS THE ONLY TRUE WORD OF GOD AND THAT THE PROPHET MUHAMMED (PBUH) IS A TRUE PROPHET SEND BY GOD so i would like to thank you because you have acknowledged that:

Tom said...

@ Amed ma

I am astonished at what you have just rambled about, you totally make no sense whatsoever!
islam does make people go mad!
There is no correlation or logic in what he just muttered!
So sad, these muslims are becoming delirious & they are afraid of their own shadows :(

David Wood said...

Yeah, Amed is definitely short on critical thinking skills. Let me see if I can clarify things for him.

Sam Shamoun and I quote the Qur'an and so-called authentic hadith, not because we believe them, but because these are the sources of Islamic doctrine. I think the Qur'an and Hadith are filled with complete nonsense, but I quote them because they are authoritative for Muslims.

Is that what Zena is doing? Is she quoting an authoritative Christian source to Christians who believe in it? No, she's quoting a fabricated source that Christians universally reject. Zena is the one who claims that the source is authentic. But since she claims it is authentic, she's stuck with what it says. And it says that God is a Trinity. So Zena has refuted Islam.

Dacritic said...

I believe such is the logic: when you quote from some book and say that that particular quote as being "true" because it somehow agrees with your way of thinking, and you assuming that source as reliable, but not accept other parts of the same "reliable" book when it does not agree with your ideas, that is we might call inconsistency and it doesn't work for you in an argument. But when you highlight some points in a book to prove what it says is false or silly (as is the case with David and Sam on the Quran), I do not understand how this makes what it says in other parts as true. I suppose some people need to get this logic right?

Tom said...

Hey, @Amed ma

A few days ago I made a comment that "islam does make people go mad!"
Here a Canadian muslim of Pakistani origin Columnist,quotes (taken from his twitter 25/03/14):

Tarek Fatah ‏@TarekFatah
"We shouldn't be afraid of truth; the inability of Pakistanis to face truth has made them mad."
-Saba Dashtiyari


Unknown said...

Tom he said pakistani not islam if he would say islam you would have a point but he didn't say that i am not from a pakistani origin so what that person said doesn't imply to me but i am a muslim and the religion that i follow is islam

Tom said...

@Amed ma

Ah, yes... Pakistan, the "predominantly Christian country".
Good to know that you still have your 'capacity of reason'!

Unknown said...

Tom you are talking like there are none christians in pakistan and i can tell you there are christians in pakistan with a pakistani origin so those things imply to them as well and why are the christiians always categorising with what people do with islam there are alot of bad thing what westerners are doing but we muslims don't say that is because he/she is a christian

Tom said...

@ Amed ma

Hmmmmmm, I am thinking should I continue to dialogue with a you who has a low capacity for reasoning & follow a thought process or I pray for you to find Our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ so that you will have a sound mind?
I will Pray for you, that you will find the truth & our Lord Jesus Christ will set you free from your bondage & dark mind.

Unknown said...

thats what you christians are good at when they are put in place they start with insulting while the muslims stay calm and try to get them out of the false religion that insults god and bring them back to the true religion of god that all the previous prophets including jesus,mozes and abraham (peace be upon them all) followed and was spread again by the last and final prophet muhammed (pbuh) and that religion is ISLAM

Tom said...

@Amed ma
Since you said this..:
"....they start with insulting while the muslims stay calm and try to get them out of the false religion that insults god..."

Look at your original post, most of it is in capital letters, is that what you call staying calm? In internet usage, that is shouting, ranting & raving like a mad man and dont try to twist that fact!

A simple question," Who is ahead of the thinking process, The God of Abraham or satan"?
"What you think came first Good or evil"?

This what the Bible says.
Genesis 1:31
"Then God looked over all He had made, and He saw that it was very good! And evening passed and morning came, marking the sixth day."

You came to this site with your incoherent ranting, which insulted Christians ... dont say we started this insult.... Zena insulted the Christians by using material which the Christian world completely laughs at, which she used to try and teach Christians with, insulting our intelligence, so dont say we insult first?

Christianity, came first and then islam came along & To me islam insulted Christianity!

When we tell muslims the Truth, you say it is insulting!

John 8:32---
"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Unknown said...

tom the reason that i used capital letters was not to shout or something like that it was to emphasize on that word

Tom said...

Amed ma said...
"..... it was to emphasize on that word"

And I said:
"....and dont try to TWIST that fact!"


Now look at the above 2 lines.. do you see a different.. one was used to emphasize a word and the other is used in loud and aggressive manner to get it through your thick head!
You have been put in your place by Brother David Wood when he calmly explained to you that your comprehension of what was written was misguided and misplaced!

Unknown said...

your arguments and conclusions are silly i will end this conversation with a verse of the holy Quran (They wish to put out GOD's light with their mouths But GOD insists upon perfecting His light, in spite of the disbelievers (61:8) meaning of disbelievers those who don't believe in Islam so you can fight against Islam as much as you want but the end of the day eventually Islam will win and don't try to twist the meaning of the verse

Tom said...

@Amed ma
I dont have to twist your verse.. your whole koran is twisted adulteration of the Bible.

And I leave you with this, The words of the Living Son of God, at this trial

"....Again the high priest asked Him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death."

I believe in the Son of Man as prophesied in the Book of Daniel.

Unknown said...

David, thank you very much for posting this conversation that you've had. Many times in discussions with Muslims, though I present them with facts and evidence, they always defend their claims with deception and intimidation tactics (such as what Zena has demonstrated, unfortunately). Your boldness and consistency in thought is something that has encouraged and inspired me to be more resolute and confident in my beliefs and claims for the Lord Jesus. Thank you again and God bless you.