Sunday, February 2, 2014

Does Islam Allow Muslims to Rape Female Captives and Slave Girls?


Critics of Islam and Sharia frequently claim that the Qur’an allows Muslim men to rape their female captives and slave girls (i.e. those "whom their right hands possess"). Westernized Muslims, however, are appalled at the thought of their religion allowing rape, so they insist that Islam prohibits this practice. Unfortunately, Islam isn't defined by Westernized Muslims; it's defined by Allah and Muhammad in the Qur'an and the Hadith. So instead of inventing a religion based on the feelings of Westernized Muslims and calling it "Islam," let's turn to the Qur'an and the Hadith to see what Allah and Muhammad have to say about this issue.

As Muhammad's armies raided town after town, they captured many women, who would often be sold or traded. Yet, since the Muslim men were a long way from their wives, they needed wisdom from Allah to guide them in their treatment of their female captives. Allah revealed:

Qur’an 23:1-6—The Believers must (eventually) win through—those who humble themselves in their prayers; who avoid vain talk; who are active in deeds of charity; who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess—for (in their case) they are free from blame.

Qur’an 70:22-30—Not so those devoted to Prayer—those who remain steadfast to their prayer; and those in whose wealth is a recognized right for the (needy) who asks and him who is prevented (for some reason from asking); and those who hold to the truth of the Day Of Judgement; and those who fear the displeasure of their Lord—for their Lord’s displeasure is the opposite of Peace and Tranquility—and those who guard their chastity, except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess—for (then) they are not to be blamed.

Notice that Allah commands Muslims to abstain from sex, except with their wives and with "those whom their right hands possess." Allah gave the same sexual rights to Muhammad:

Qur’an 33:50—O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war ...

The Muslim practice of having sex with captured women is reported often in the Hadith, where we learn that Muhammad's only objection to sex with captives was his condemnation of birth control.

Sahih Muslim 3371—We went out with Allah’s Messenger on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger, and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4138—We went out with Allah’s Apostle for the invasion of Bun Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus [same as "azl" above]. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus, we said: "How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah’s Apostle who is present among us? We asked (him) about it and he said: "It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul till the Day of Resurrection is predestined to exist, it will exist."

Sahih Muslim 3384—Jabir bin Abdullah reported that a person asked Allah’s Apostle saying: I have a slave-girl and I practice azl with her, whereupon Allah’s Messenger said: This cannot prevent that which Allah has decreed. The person then came (after some time) and said: Messenger of Allah, the slave-girl about whom I talked to you has conceived, whereupon Allah’s Messenger said: I am the servant of Allah and His Messenger.

Clearly, Muslims were taking full advantage of Muhammad's teachings about female captives and slave girls. Nevertheless, Muslims eventually captured women along with their husbands, so they wondered if Allah would allow them to have sex with these married captives (since adultery is otherwise forbidden in Islam).

Allah gives his answer in the Qur'an:

Qur’an 4:24—Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess ...

Here's the historical background for this verse:

Sunan Abu Dawud 2150—The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.” That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period.

Thus, the Qur’an allows men to have sex with their female captives and slave girls, and the Hadith provides numerous examples of how this was practiced. Yet we must follow this fact through to its logical conclusion. Muslims decided to have sex with their captives, whom they were later going to sell. Some of these captives were women whose husbands and families had been slaughtered by Muslims. Others had husbands who had been captured by Muslims. Would these women gladly consent to sexual intercourse with men who had killed their families or taken their families captive, and who were simply going to sell them into slavery when they arrived at the next town? Certainly not. But since the Qur’an and Muhammad authorized sex with these women (and said nothing about seeking their permission), we can only conclude that Muhammad allowed his followers to rape their captives.

For more on women in Islam, click here.

To see some of the practical consequences of Muhammad's teachings about raping captives, watch this:

140 comments:

soup said...

If you check out the youtube comment thread there is a comment that needs a reply from someone with more knowledge than I.

goethechosemercy said...

Freed from blame?
Freed from the blame of the Ummah.
Not freed from the condemnation of the world, the universe and God who made them.
God may have created the rapist, but what the rapist forgets is that God created the victim too.
Yeah, there's always a catch.

floare farcas-petrescu said...

Thanks so much for posting the TRUTH about Quran. I refer to your website any times when replying to news in the media concerning Islam.

Michelle Nix said...

I actually have a question, when someone brings up the fact that Muhammad sanctions rape of slaves Muslim's will trot out the tired Tirade of "No, no, its not rape--slaves can't be raped it's against our teachings it must be CONSENSUAL." or some such nonsense.

Now I know commonsense dictates that war prisoners will usually not willingly sleep with the person who pillaged their lands, probably killed their father, brother, cousin, husband, or even son much less do it in front of one's husband--but how can their argument be definitively disproven when the Quran does not say it was rape or otherwise?

Bokul Ali said...

WHY ARE YOU FUCKING LYING YOU PIECE OF SHIT, you think we're stupid ? you're taking words from the quran and twisting them, THE QURAN DOESN'T ALLOW pre-martial sex therefore what you said is contradicting, and it is not true, you're not even a fucking muslim yourself, 'david woods' stfu and stick to your own shit, and btw, that slag who posted a comment saying ' thank you for posting the truth about islam' can also go to hell, you're as dumb as each other. RANT OVER...oh btw..islam is the FASTEST growing religion..you mad bro;) ? lmao dumbass'

Usman Ali Raza said...

Hi
well I don't know where to start, firstly you either do not know english or you don't know how to read, the verses that you mentioned above use the word 'sex' and not rape, so you can clearly have 'sex' with your slave but not rape. So clearly you yourself do not know what you are writing. And as the guy already said, Islam does not allow pre-marriage sex so first learn to read and understand what you read and then come write an article.
May God give you the ability to read and interpret.
Amen
yours(not) Truly

George Berkovic said...

Hi There,

Adding on to Usman Raza's quote, the Quran uses the term sex in which both man and woman must agree on intercourse.Rape is nothing near sex. Also the Salifi rulings are no longer valid. Shiite Scholars and leaders condemn rape and killing of people who are not muslims. Salifi believe only their religion should remain and all other religions must be abolished. Shiite muslims not to be confused with Ismaili muslims, adapt to their enviroments creating more peace and harmony. I hope all readers do further more researching before coming to a conclusion on this biased and Zionist controlled website

May God Help You Understand the True Islam

Japie said...

So what are muslims proposing here?

1. Per-marital sex is not allowed except for sex with slaves (as per quran above)

2. Rape is not allowed (scripture references???)

3. Sex is allowed with slave women even if they are still maried (clear from mentioned scriptures)

Conclusion according to the Muslim defenders here:
The captured women were so glad to be taken from their husband and couldn't wait to consent to have sex with their new masters. Their families were either killed or taken slaves themselves so they were eager to get stuck in themselves and submit and enjoy sex with their captures.

Yeah that sounds really convincing. NOT!

Khan said...

You bastard lying I read it nothing say like that is say (not fornication) it mean not intercourse

Anonymous said...

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good (Qu’ran An-nisa 19)



Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"


the Prophet directed husbands how they should approach their wifes, He said: “None of you should fall upon his wife like an animal; but let there first be a messenger between you.” The Companions exclaimed, “What is that messenger?” The Prophet replied, “Kisses and (romantic) words!” (Reported by Al-Daylami)

Imam Ibn al-Qayyim (Allah have mercy on him) reports in his famous “Tibb al-Nabawi” that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) forbade from engaging in sexual intercourse before foreplay. (See: al-Tibb al-Nabawi, 183, from Jabir ibn Abd Allah)


Narrated Jarir bin 'Abdullah: "Allah's Apostle said, 'Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, ONENESS, UNIQUENESS OF ALLAH (TAWHEED), Volume 9, Book 93, Number 473)"

"Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just” (The Noble Quran, 60:8)


1. How can there be a rape with out foreplay?
2. How can there be a rape without treating the women (Wife/ What your right hand possess) like an animal?
3.And you can be kind by raping what your right hand possess but you are not when you deprived them of their inheritance?


Islam never teaches you wrong. Neither Prophet nor Quran taught us wrong. But its true some muslims do not understand Quran or Hadith well enough and misinterpret it.

Anonymous said...

"Now I know commonsense dictates that war prisoners will usually not willingly sleep with the person who pillaged their lands, probably killed their father, brother, cousin, husband, or even son much less do it in front of one's husband--but how can their argument be definitively disproven when the Quran does not say it was rape or otherwise?"

Quran just states it is lawful for the man to have intercourse with the female captive. It does not state it is obligatory nor does it say it is lawful to rape. In my previous comment i have clearly stated the verse of Quran where Allah commands men to treat women kindly.

"The captured women were so glad to be taken from their husband and couldn't wait to consent to have sex with their new masters. Their families were either killed or taken slaves themselves so they were eager to get stuck in themselves and submit and enjoy sex with their captures.

Yeah that sounds really convincing. NOT!"

Do you have any historical evidence to suggest that female captives were raped? or forced? But imagine an helpless women whose family is killed left on his own. How is she protected from rapists? or why would she not indulge in prostitution when she has nothing? Islam gives a way where she can be protected by his master from the rapists and she doesnt not need to indulge in prostitution for money or pleasure. Is to not better than getting raped? or doing prostitution to support yourself? It is!

And now you would say why cant they be set fee?the answer is it is encouraged in islam but not at the time of war to protect the muslims information falling in the enemies hands which every non muslim would do too..

As i said in my previous comment, you have to understand and research enough to draw conclusions about the rulings of islam. You cant take a verse out of the book and state hey islam allows rape.. utter nonsense...

Japie said...

@Ali Nasir,

These rules bat treatment of women is for Muslim women. Not necessarily for Kafir women.

Is there historical evidence of rape/ forced sex? That's what we have been discussing in this post. Read the actual article by David wood. It clearly tells the time of Mohamed's companions who captures Arabic women (by the way, capturing women as selves IS using force). They practiced azl because they had not had sex in a while. Did the women have any say in this or give consent? Of course not, they were their property. And like I said, would these women have gladly given consent to these men having sex with them? Very unlikely.

So no, it doesn't mention the word rape, but this is a pretty good description of it. If this isn't rape, what is?

Japie said...

To give you a modern day example, do the Yazidi girls consent to having sex with their captures? How likely is this especially when you hear the reports? I mean their family has been killed or captured, these women are heavily distressed.

So I would almost say it sounded funny when you said that we can't say for definite that these women did not consent because the Quran did not say it was rape, except for the horrifying reality of it.

And let me say something else. As a Christian, I feel offended at the suggestion that God would give permission, not only to allow his people to capture slaves in the way Muslims did/do, but to abuse them for sex is utterly despicable.

How could this possible come from a Holy God?

Khaja Ansari said...

I S I L is a creation of the Zionist state of Israel and C I A. This is continuation of the conspiracy of Iraq war to loot, plunder and kill millions of Muslims. Modern day crusade against Muslims , so to speak. These ISIL thugs do not represent Islam as we know it. Anyone believing otherwise either has no commonsense or is the enemy of mankind. You cannot trick all the people all the time. Keep trying.

These conspirators are the same whose ancestors defied the God of Moses and rebelled against both. Moses is the only prophet who cursed his followers and asked God to punish them severely. They put Jesus on the cross and one Jewish women poisoned Prophet Mohammed but could not kill him. Horrible fate and swift retribution awaits them in the hereafter for God is witnessing their evil to gentiles.

These accursed losers have been disobeying God's commandment and defying His prophets from biblical times. ISIL is their latest invention. They never succeeded in their conspiracies and never will, because satan is on their side.

Erwin Anciano said...

It saddens me that their are people who are completely missing the fact that, whether it's rape or consensual, the Quran actually permits slavery and the pillaging of other people's lands, lives and property.

That alone is evil as evil gets. No amount of sophistry -- and yes all this ridiculous defense of"it's not rape! It's consensual" is all sophistry -- will change that we are dealing wih a religion that condones slavery "because it's okay according to our holy scriptures."

Bluenoser12 Cam said...

Khaja... really? Blame everyone else, always the victim. The Jews are to blame, it's the CIA or Mossad, or the US. So Muslims are flying from all around the world to join Israel or the CIA? I guess if they can be sucked into following a pedophile, a murderer, a caravan robber/thief, a sex maniac like Mo, then I can see why you think that, because obviously followers of Islam are eaaily fooled. You would think they would figure out that a man who every time he met a beautiful woman would instantly get a revelation that she is suppose to be his wife (even his foster son's wife), so he had to make up another revelation from Allah to allow him to have her get a divorce.. too funny. Or how he's so special he gets to have 13 wives, and how he had the sexual prowess of 40 men (like that is a great quality for a Prophet), not spirituality, but sexual prowess..ha! The fact that Islam has a law that anyone who leaves Islam can be killed PROVES it's a cult.. kinda keeps everyone in line like communism or facism... guess that's why the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler were such good buddies... Satan is on someone's side but I'm thinking it's MO, since he admitted he was fooled by Satan...(Satanic verses)..

Amit Khanna said...

The Qur'an never once speaks of Allah's love for non-Muslims, but it speaks of Allah's cruelty toward and hatred of non-Muslims more than 500 times

shashank soni said...

What i have learn from all the above is that religions are made to divide humans from humanity..... request to all....above all religion...there is a bigger thing in life...HUMANITY.... if we all follow that...world will be more beautiful than ever...

Audrey Grettie said...

I would like to hear more from moderate Muslims that would never think of capturing and raping a 12 year girl to death, how ISIL members can justify such behavior? Whether ISIL is a construct of larger and insidious political machines or not, the members of ISIL believe completely that they are following Islam according to the Qur'an. There are also reports that this raping is conducted as a religious observance with statements that god is pleased by the raping of non-Muslim women. Are these people brainwashed by perverse religious leaders or do these beliefs have a place in Islamic practice? Let me just put it out there that I don't think any religious practice is inherently bad, but sometimes the followers can be down right evil.

TDMASOAK said...

Corrupt people of all religions make up crap as they go, whether the Quran gives the OK or NOT to rape,,,it is happening and carried out by a group of Muslims that seem to be brainwashed un-educated idiots.

Bluenoser12 Cam said...

TDMASOAK... think about it... they revere a man who killed over 600 men in 1 day, was obsessed with sex, promise unlimited sex in heaven, had sex with his dead Aunt, married his adopted son's wife after he ok'd divorce to do so, wore Aisha's dress, endorsed and had sex slaves, so in other words you'd have to be brain-washed and un-educated idiots to get sucked into the cult. Those born into Islam know no other way, and if they try to leave they can be killed...

Bluenoser12 Cam said...

Sahih Muslim 3371—We went out with Allah’s Messenger on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger, and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4138—We went out with Allah’s Apostle for the invasion of Bun Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus [same as "azl" above]. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus, we said: "How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah’s Apostle who is present among us? We asked (him) about it and he said: "It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul till the Day of Resurrection is predestined to exist, it will exist."

Sahih Muslim 3384—Jabir bin Abdullah reported that a person asked Allah’s Apostle saying: I have a slave-girl and I practice azl with her, whereupon Allah’s Messenger said: This cannot prevent that which Allah has decreed. The person then came (after some time) and said: Messenger of Allah, the slave-girl about whom I talked to you has conceived, whereupon Allah’s Messenger said: I am the servant of Allah and His Messenger. So it's very clear that Mo's men had SEX with those they captured.
And here's for the married women that they captured...

Qur’an 4:24—Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess ...

Here's the historical background for this verse:

Sunan Abu Dawud 2150—The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.” That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period.

Thus, the Qur’an allows men to have sex with their female captives and slave girls, and the Hadith provides numerous examples of how this was practiced. Yet we must follow this fact through to its logical conclusion. Muslims decided to have sex with their captives, whom they were later going to sell. Some of these captives were women whose husbands and families had been slaughtered by Muslims. Others had husbands who had been captured by Muslims. Would these women gladly consent to sexual intercourse with men who had killed their families or taken their families captive, and who were simply going to sell them into slavery when they arrived at the next town? Certainly not. But since the Qur’an and Muhammad authorized sex with these women (and said nothing about seeking their permission), we can only conclude that Muhammad allowed his followers to rape their captives.

Ashiq Waheed said...

I am a Muslim Woman, 50 years old, just recently came to know of such practice, I am disappointed, sad, upset, I cannot find a word to explain how emotionally upset I am, there is no excuse to have sex with female slaves of that time, keeping several female slaves to have fun besides wife, and according to religious leaders, wife has no right to object against it. Wow, this is wrong.
According to my research, it was a common act among people of those times regardless of religion. But muslim were supposed to fix the social problem, not twist it, to enjoy having 4 wives and then several female slaves, there is no excuse.
They were smart enough to provide roof for these women, other stronger women of that time could participate in opening a shelter for those sad and emotionally disturbed women who saw murder and death of their people.
I was not expecting this from muslims of that time and Prophet Mohammad. They were smarter than this, they were better than that, they could do better than that.
So it means they also thought of women as a toy, a thing, a left over thing, just play with her,
Did Allah make a difference between men and women? Did really Allah say that to go ahead and kill all the men and play with their women or it is said by males of that time, not Allah. I don't think Allah can say that, no way.

Allah cannot say that! I have a 100% doubt.

I am sorry Allah Tallah, I love you very much, I feel Prophet Mohammad was a human being, not an angel, he did a lot of good but he made mistakes. This is one of them.

If I am wrong please forgive me, I am not a scholar just a simple human being, using my common sense. Mrs.Waheed.

Audrey Grettie said...

Thank you Mrs. Waheed. I think that you are right that this brutality was taking place before Mohammad. It is an ugly war tactic that has occurred in many cultures of many religions all over the world (Vikings, Gengis Khan, Bosnian Serb forces, Hutus, etc...) I also agree with TDMKSOAK that people will use their religion to justify whatever it is that they want to do.
I just wonder if so many people agree that rape is an atrocity, and those who commit it are monstrous, why are more people not attempting to prevent it? The problem is a human problem not a muslim problem. I can only speak for myself, but I guess I am asking muslim people about this practice because I don't understand the religious rhetoric that is being used to justify the action. I also know that my opinion means very little to the perpetrators because I do not adhere to a religion. It seems that reforming this sanctioned crime against women needs to come from within the culture and religion that it belongs to.

oluwatosinj said...

then how can i follow a religion that is god allow raping the minor and slave...a religion where is prophet molest and rape under age girl without his god see bad thing in that.. a religion that allow man to beat his wife..a religion where his god created man and woman but just decided to make woman a man's toy....a religion that beleieve that god created all things including pig but just decided people not to touch what he created, i wonder why that god created the animal then...a religion that show that god hate unbeliever to extent telling his follower to kill unbeliever...God almighty i love u for the religion of peace and love u gave my parent to teach me this your way..

Rasheed said...

You people are blaming Muslims, they are human beings created but Almighty and when a Muslim is born, he is as innocent as newborn of any other religion but fault lies with Quran which advocates hatred against non Muslims and to betterment of globe and global community, this book should be either banned or hatred chapters removed.

Audrey Grettie said...

I hear what you are saying Rasheed. People are trying to live in a social environment that condones brutality against women, but they are products of the culture themselves. I have a question about your attitude about the Quaran however. If the Quaran is the major holy book for people who are Muslim, then not following the teachings of the Quaran will result in a person no longer being a Muslim. Isn't blaming the Quaran similar to blaming Muslims? Thank you for your honest reply.

Ron Meijer said...

All these discussions aside, if we look at the real world and all the raping muslims do, it is not hard to see how muslims that matter, are opportunistically interpreting the koran to rape, abuse and behave badly.

The islam needs a reform and the koran needs to be rewritten.
I hope they do it quickly because at current breeding rates, in thirty years, there will be more muslims on the planet than civilized people.

No scratch that, I think there are plenty of decent muslims but your koran needs a review to be even remotely acceptable in modern society.

Audrey Grettie said...

Radical, small-minded brutes come in all religious and spiritual flavors. If the bible is interpreted literally Europe and North America would be living in the Middle Ages. Don't hold all followers of Islam responsible for a bunch of crazy jihadists.

Bluenoser12 Cam said...

Audrey... sorry but your making excuses for Islam doesn't work for me. No other religion, even though Islam is an ideology and not a religion, condones murder, rape, sex slaves like Islam. Sweden, Norway and other European countries have had their rape cases skyrocket with the arrival of Islamic immigrants, you only have to listen to their talking about Western women are all whores and all the children in Western society are iligitimate and don't know their fathers etc... the New Testament brought Christianity out of the dark ages with the teachings of Jesus, Islam is stuck in the 7th century....7th century mentality in the 21st century doesn't work..

Isis is not islam said...

Qur'an says your allowed to have sex with them not rape. There was a hadith regarding the rape of a slave and umar (Ra) said to stone the man.

Bluenoser12 Cam said...

ISIS is not Islam... wrong, ISIS is 100% Islam, they even quote passages from the Quran to justctify their brutality.Mo himself killed over 600 in 1 day.. Mo taught abbrogation, that is if there is a conflict in teaching the LATTER will prevail... which is why the peaceful teachings of Mo when he was in Mecca are replaced by the violent passages when he was in Medina and a warlord, robbing caravans, killing everyone who disagreed with him...

yop less said...

Islam is what we make of it. The scriptures are only a guide from which we can source wisdom. We should not follow it when it condones the most vile desires of men. Rape is disgusting, and failing to treat women with respect is a disgrace to any muslim.

Japie said...

Yop less That sounds honorable, but if we have to start cherry picking and use our human judgement to decide what is good and what is bad, then what does that say about the Quran? Why follow it at all? Why not follow Lord of the Rings for example?

Further to this, if the Quran IS the word of Allah, and we have to cherry pick what Allah commands, then we are saying that Allah is not all good, but he himself needs to be vetted and sanitized. Once we start saying this, Allah is no longer God. By definition God must be the greatest and holiest being worthy of worship. A god like this is not worthy of worship.

Finally, the quran demands unquestioning obedience to both the quran and Mohammed. Rape as we know it is condoned both by Allah in the quran and Mohammed in the sunnah. In fact he practised this himself and encouraged it. The quran states that Mohammed was the most perfect example of how to live and muslims must imitate him to every small detail. By saying that the scriptures are only a guide, you pull the rug from underneath the whole of the quran and sunnah and there just is no islam left.

Heather Rose said...

Yeah, sex with a slave is ALWAYS consensual! To believe that is either delusional or just plain stupid. You know that rape is technically sex, right? Riiight.

Tamsin Mc Cormick said...

To anyone posting here :- Although the word "rape" is not used in the translation , what is described here is rape !! The only ambiguity I can see is that is seems to be sanctioned only for married men, There is sufficient room for interpretation to allow
men in general.But then that opens a completely different can of worms on Islam.!!

Vikram said...

Thanks so much

happy cows said...

Don't know why muslim women still follow this religion when they know their worth. Wife beating is allowed, polygamy is allowed, marrying a girl child is allowed, raping slaves is allowed and etc. etc.
for all those women who back islam by saying that it is peaceful, have not actually lived under Sharia. And they should be thankful for this to their God Allah and pray that "Thank God we are not living under the law that you made for us women"...

Cautious Believer said...

Regardless of what anyone says, what your right hand possesses - and being able to possess a slave? I don't understand, back then or now, how it's okay to possess a slave - period.

nomessinoo9 said...

I get a laugh, this is a good read. Let's not leave out Muslim's penchant for boys. Muslims vision of paradise includes being served by "eternal youths" These youths are boys. Fact, of the estimated 1.5 million street children in Pakistan. The number of sexually abused children is about 90%. Fact an old Bedouin expression "A goat for use, a women for enjoyment, a boy for ecstasy" Just thought you'd like to know. And the term is "pedestry" And let's not forget about " Bacha Bazi" Dancing boys of the middle east that would drive men into a frenzy.

Bobby English said...

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 259:

Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

The Prophet cursed the lady who practices tattooing and the one who gets herself tattooed, and one who eats (takes) Riba' (usury) and the one who gives it. And he prohibited taking the price of a dog, and the money earned by prostitution, and cursed the makers of pictures.

David,

Time to give this hadith, some publicity

Bobby English said...

AFGHAN MEN STRUGGLE WITH SEXUAL IDENTITY, STUDY FINDS
Published January 28, 2010
FoxNews.com
As if U.S. troops and diplomats didn't have enough to worry about in trying to understand Afghan culture, a new report suggests an entire region in the country is coping with a sexual identity crisis.
An unclassified study from a military research unit in southern Afghanistan details how homosexual behavior is unusually common among men in the large ethnic group known as Pashtuns -- though they seem to be in complete denial about it.
The study, obtained by Fox News, found that Pashtun men commonly have sex with other men, admire other men physically, have sexual relationships with boys and shun women both socially and sexually -- yet they completely reject the label of "homosexual." The research was conducted as part of a longstanding effort to better understand Afghan culture and improve Western interaction with the local people.
The research unit, which was attached to a Marine battalion in southern Afghanistan, acknowledged that the behavior of some Afghan men has left Western forces "frequently confused."
The report details the bizarre interactions a U.S. Army medic and her colleagues had with Afghan men in the southern province of Kandahar.
In one instance, a group of local male interpreters had contracted gonorrhea anally but refused to believe they could have contracted it sexually –
"because they were not homosexuals."
[JUST PERVERTS]
Apparently, according to the report, Pashtun men interpret the Islamic prohibition on homosexuality to mean they cannot "love" another man -- but that doesn't mean they can't use men for "sexual gratification."
The group of interpreters who had contracted gonorrhea joked in the camp that they actually got the disease by "mixing green and black tea." But since they refused to heed the medics' warnings, many of them re-contracted the disease after receiving treatment.
The U.S. army medic also told members of the research unit that she and her colleagues had to explain to a local man how to get his wife pregnant.
The report said:
"When it was explained to him what was necessary, he reacted with disgust and asked, 'How could one feel desire to be with a woman, who God has made unclean, when one could be with a man, who is clean? Surely this must be wrong.'"
The Pashtun populations are concentrated in the southern and eastern parts of the country. The Human Terrain Team that conducted the research is part of a military effort to learn more about local populations.
The report also detailed a disturbing practice in which older "men of status" keep young boys on hand for sexual relationships. One of the country's favorite sayings, the report said, is "women are for children, boys are for pleasure."

Unknown said...

Those muslims really talk like their father satan. He too kills, he is the father of lies. I follow my father in heaven so i dont kill, rape women, steal, but try to honour my father my following his commandments.

Saad said...

The answer is big No.

Wahabi and ISIS does not follow Islam. They have started a new religion..

All the above Quranic verse or hadees does not says to rape a slave woman..

According to authentic hadees by Umar bin Khataab second caliph , a rapist has to be stoned to death, if he rape his slave woman..

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/does_islam_permit_muslim_men_to_rape_their_slave_girls_

unknown said...

I've read many of the comments posted here and have to express the disappointment and sadness I feel for the majority of this world taking Holy books and teachings and wearing them as team banners, a countries flag, a gangs color, etc. Its outright pathetic! We've become so indoctrinated by words that we've lost the spirit of time teachings. Our egos are taking the stage in the form of childish bickering and we've become lawyers making loops through law. If you BELIEVE in your religion, it ceases to be religion. It becomes "faith". Everyone says they're willing to die for their faith. Then die to yourselves and live out your faith in action, not words. Let your lives testify to that faith and let God judge who's faith is true. God bless you.

Japie said...

OK, so it does not use the word "rape". But what do these hadith permit? Men having sex with their captive/slave women. A captive/slave is property, and so he does not require to get consent, she is his property. So from a Quran/hardith perspective, it is not rape as having sex without her consent is not a violation of any law. However, is having sex against her will allowed? Well yes, because she is a slave and has no say! But then in my book, this is rape. If you insist it is not, it still shows that Muhammed was not the greatest person ever lived. He encouraged slavery, slave markets, forceful sex etc... OK, the quran does not call this rape, it does not see anything wrong with this. Of course, it is consistent within it's own moral framework. But boy, some moral framework!

Saad said...

Japie

You cannot force your slave to have Sex. If you rape your slave, you should be stoned to death..
Sex was not a Sin if it is mutual.

Allah has forbidden prostitution or selling slave women for sexual service.

Allah said:from Quran

وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا لِّتَبْتَغُوا عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا

Do not compel your slave girls to prostitution if they desire chastity, seeking thereby the interests of worldly life.

Surah An-Nur 24:33

Jabir reported: Abdullah ibn Ubayy Al-Salul would say to his servant girl, “Earn us something from prostitution.” So Allah the Exalted revealed the verse:

وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا لِّتَبْتَغُوا عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا

Do not compel your slave girls to prostitution if they desire chastity, seeking thereby the interests of worldly life. (24:33)

Source: Sahih Muslim 3029, Grade: Sahih

Therefore, Islam absolutely forbids what is known as the “sex trade” wherein women are bought and sold for sexual intercourse, either willingly or by compulsion.

Regarding the crime of rape, the Prophet applied the legal punishment of adultery to those who committed this heinous sin.

Abu Alqama reported: A woman went out to pray during the time of the Prophet and she was met by a man who attacked her and raped her. She said, “This man has molested me!” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

ارْجُمُوهُ

He is condemned to death.

Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 1454, Grade: Sahih

Similarly, Umar condemned a man to death for having unlawful intercourse with a female captive he had acquired during war.

Harun ibn Al-Asim reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab sent Khalid ibn Al-Waleed with the army and Khalid sent Dirar ibn Al-Azwar along with a company and they invaded a district belonging to the tribe of Asad. They captured a beautiful girl and Dirar was impressed with her. He asked his companions to give her to him and they did, then he had intercourse with her. A letter was sent to Umar and he replied:

فَكَتَبَ عُمَرُ أَنْ أَرْضِخْهُ بِالْحِجَارَةِ

He should be stoned to death.

Source: Sunan Al-Kubra 16761

As such, the founding jurists of the schools of Islamic law considered the crime of rape to be a major sin in the category of adultery, specifically mentioning the case of a man who rapes a female captive he acquires during war.

Imam Ash-Shafi’ee said:

وَإِذَا اغْتَصَبَ الرَّجُلُ الْجَارِيَةَ ثُمَّ وَطِئَهَا بَعْدَ الْغَصْبِ وَهُوَ مِنْ غَيْرِ أَهْلِ الْجَهَالَةِ أُخِذَتْ مِنْهُ الْجَارِيَةُ وَالْعُقْرُ وَأُقِيمَ عَلَيْهِ حَدُّ الزِّنَا

If a man acquires a slave girl by force and then he rapes her, and he is not an ignorant person, then the slave girl is taken from him. He must pay the fine and the legal punishment for adultery will be applied to him.

Source: Al-Umm 253

It is not true, as some anti-Muslim speakers have claimed, that a woman who is raped should be punished.

Imam Malik said:

وَالْعُقُوبَةُ فِي ذَلِكَ عَلَى الْمُغْتَصِبِ وَلَا عُقُوبَةَ عَلَى الْمُغْتَصَبَةِ فِي ذَلِكَ كُلِّهِ

The legal punishment is applied to the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who was raped in any case.

Source: Muwatta 1418

Hadees is here..
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/does_islam_permit_muslim_men_to_rape_their_slave_girls_

Japie said...

Saad,

"You cannot force your slave to have Sex. If you rape your slave, you should be stoned to death.. Sex was not a Sin if it is mutual."

Well let's look at the evidence.

"Abu Alqama reported: A woman went out to pray during the time of the Prophet and she was met by a man who attacked her and raped her. She said, “This man has molested me!” "

This is an example of a muslim man attaching a muslim woman. She is not a slave. This is not the scenario we are discussing here.

"Do not compel your slave girls to prostitution if they desire chastity, seeking thereby the interests of worldly life." Again, we are not discussing prostitution where a woman receives payment for sex with customers.

"Harun ibn Al-Asim reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab sent Khalid ibn Al-Waleed with the army and Khalid sent Dirar ibn Al-Azwar along with a company and they invaded a district belonging to the tribe of Asad. They captured a beautiful girl and Dirar was impressed with her. He asked his companions to give her to him and they did, then he had intercourse with her. A letter was sent to Umar and he replied:
He should be stoned to death."

There is no mention of why he was to be put to death. Was it because he forced sex upon her? Or did he just take liberty without going through the proper procedure of sharing booty? It doesn't say. Besides, we have all the examples above where companions of Mohammed captured women and had sex with them.

And then the Quran itself sanctions it: "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" 33:50

"If a man acquires a slave girl by force and then he rapes her, and he is not an ignorant person, then the slave girl is taken from him. He must pay the fine and the legal punishment for adultery will be applied to him. Source: Al-Umm 253"

Again, we're not talking about a man taking a girl as a slave by force. We are talking about kufar women taken captive through jihad war and the companions have gone through all proper procedures in sharing the booty. As a slave owner, the Quran and Mohammad sanction sexual intercourse with their slave girls/women. There's nothing about their rights or consent, simply because they are their property and have no say in the matter.

So it all comes down to the question, would all of these women have happily given consent given that their husbands and family were slaughtered by the same men? Or worse, were still alive but they were taken from them?

Even if you don't call this rape, is this the high standard of the best person who ever lived? Is this the ideal model man to be emulated?

Hentai1987 said...

Do you have any historical evidence to suggest that female captives were raped? or forced? But imagine an helpless women whose family is killed left on his own. How is she protected from rapists? or why would she not indulge in prostitution when she has nothing? Islam gives a way where she can be protected by his master from the rapists and she doesnt not need to indulge in prostitution for money or pleasure. Is to not better than getting raped? or doing prostitution to support yourself? It is!


First you kill all her family member and than you offer slave status because prostituion is worse? You are pretty disgusdting

The Maliki_school said for example that rapists will get the hadd punishment but women have to PROOF that they got raped
http://www.academia.edu/1339459/Rape_in_Maliki_Legal_Doctrine_and_Practice_8th15th_Centuries_CE_

Heather said...

I am a Christian, who has taken interest in the Muslim religion; as a way to better understand my fellow neighbors and co workers. After reading this, the comments above, and other articles, I just have to say, I am so glad I have a God that LOVES ME. The Bible is so beautiful. I think the largest difference between the Koran and the Bible is this; the Koran speaks about YOUR love for god, were the Bible speaks of GODS LOVE FOR US. It is not until you know how loved you are that you can truly begin to love others. As with what is written above, the God I know causes me to be a reflection of Him. Prisoners, human ownership, and sex outside of marriage is not a reflection of an all loving, peaceful God.

Japie said...

@Heather - amen to that!

Saad said...

Japie,

Read carefully

Umar condemned a man to death for having unlawful intercourse with a female captive he had acquired during war.

Harun ibn Al-Asim reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab sent Khalid ibn Al-Waleed with the army and Khalid sent Dirar ibn Al-Azwar along with a company and they invaded a district belonging to the tribe of Asad. They captured a beautiful girl and Dirar was impressed with her. He asked his companions to give her to him and they did, then he had intercourse with her. A letter was sent to Umar and he replied:

فَكَتَبَ عُمَرُ أَنْ أَرْضِخْهُ بِالْحِجَارَةِ

He should be stoned to death.

The hadees above point out that Dirar should be stoned to death
Why? For Capturing and raping a bride .. not for sharing bounty unjustly.
Because at that time according to shariat law, death penalty was for raping and adultery.

Hey Heather,
The original bible which was revealed to prophet Jesus pbuh in Hebrew was true and beautiful Not your english bible..

Stan Hallett said...

The Truth?! One need only to do a Google search such as "women raped by muslim captors" fund countless reports of captive women being raped, married to their muslim captors even though they we married already, sold into slavery and even killed for refusing to have sex with them.

Folks wake up! Islam is not just some other religion. They are at war with anyone that does not accept Allah, their so-called prophet and the Qur'an. We are at war!

Japie said...

Saad said: "Umar condemned a man to death for having unlawful intercourse with a female captive he had acquired during war."
And "The hadees above point out that Dirar should be stoned to death Why? For Capturing and raping a bride .. not for sharing bounty unjustly."

Saad, do you realise that you have just agreed that having intercourse with a female captive = rape. Thanks for your honesty.

We have therefore the Hadith that encourages Muslims to have sex with their female captives as quoted by David Wood in this article and that this is rape. Why? Because in David Wood's examples, Muslim men had captured women during war and had intercourse with them and Muhammad encouraged them not to hold back. And you have just affirmed that having sex with a female war captive is rape. Something that you think Umar condemned.

Btw, Umar only said he should be put to death, but does not say why.

Bashir Mohina said...

I do not believe this, Muhammad clearly says it doesn't matter if you do or not do which mean nobody is getting married that is rape

Bashir Mohina said...

Hey Brother Muslims, my father accepted Jesus only for one reason because God Elohim and Christ Jesus proved that they love us, the want our heart to completely be submitted to Jesus only he is the truth, life and way without Him no man goes to heaven plus check history of your country if Islam did attack your country than that means your forefathers raped or forced which means above that brother has mentioned it true, I accept Jesus as my saviour Amen hope you all too

Brianna Xoxo said...

Islam is a Sick and Disgusting Cult that should be Banned from the entire world, Nothing but evil has ever stemmed from it and nothing but evil is all it will ever truly be!

isma dhibto said...

people keep blaming ISLAM for all their misserble life how sad and there are some people playing they are muslims but only ALLAH knows the truth .. i love islam and all the muslims and i will never accept such lies as our prophet Mohammed peace be upon him was the greateste man ever walked on this earth and ALLAH IS The one ,, NEVER HAD A PARENTS AND NEVER BEGOT A SON AND NEVER HAD A WIFE AND NEVER HAD A SIBBLINGS AND NEVER WILL ,, ALLAH IS ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD ,, MAY ALLAH GUIDE YOU ALL .

isma dhibto said...

"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone."

Japie said...

@Isma, I appreciate you have a strong faith in your prophet. Do you think it is right for a person to blindly trust someone, like a spouse, even if the evidence that they are cheating on him is stairing him in the face?
You state that Mohammad was the greatest person who ever lived, but your own scriptures (Quran) state that while Jesus was without sin (19:19), Mohammad had to ask Allah for forgiveness from his sin (47:19) Just from that fact alone, it makes Jesus a greater person, doesn't it?
Then what about all the evidence above? Can you truly say these are lies? Are the Hadith quoted above false? Is the Quran wrong about permitting Muslim men to have sex with their captives? The Quran is quite clear? Or do you think such acts are totally fine and morally great? Are these things that makes Mohammad great?

Anonymous said...

Your Hadith Sources are All Fake !!!!

Bluenoser12 Cam said...

Lyluta Hassan... actually the Quran and Hadith's are all fake.. Arabs in the Middle East were tired of hearing that the Jews were God's chosen people so they started their own cult where their god favored them.. a true God would not want to kill his creation like Islamists want to kill non-Muslims..the God of the Bible is not willing that any should perish, but all should be saved...

Japie said...

@Lyluta Hassan

Can you show evidence that these are fake? Could you please point out the correct ones with references and links? If they are fake then that is very important to know and I want to know that.

Thanks

Unknown said...

Lyluta Hassan said...

Your Hadith Sources are All Fake !!!!

YOU ARE A TAQIYYA/LYING MORONIC CRETIN:

RAPE IS A DIVINE RIGHT
RAPE IN ISLAM
Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married...Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.
"Ruling on having intercourse with a slave woman when one has a wife"
Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 10382, November 24, 2005.

Islam Question and Answer
General Supervisor: Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid
Mon 18 Raj 1437 - 25 April 2016

- Principles of Fiqh » Jurisprudence and Islamic Rulings » Transactions » Slavery.
arur
20802: Intercourse with a slave woman is not regarded as zina (adultery)
________________________________________
Hadith 3.718 : I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interrupts. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Bani Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come into existence."
Does this mean that the Companions of the Prophet (SAW) didn't commit adultery when they practiced 'azl with the captive girls?.
Published Date: 2002-12-27
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:
This hadeeth was narrated by al-Bukhaari (2542) from Ibn Muhayreez who said: I saw Abu Sa’eed (may Allaah be pleased with him) and I asked him. He said: We went out with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) on the campaign of Banu al-Mustaliq, and we captured some prisoners from among the Arabs. We desired women and the period of abstention was hard for us, and we wanted to engage in ‘azl (coitus interruptus). We asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, “There is no point in doing that, for there is no soul which Allaah has decreed should exist until the Day of Resurrection but it will come into existence.”

Unknown said...

RAPE
PART 2

According to another report, They captured some female prisoners and wanted to be intimate with them without them becoming pregnant. They asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about ‘azl and he said, “There is no point in doing that, for Allaah has decreed who should be created until the Day of Resurrection.”
This hadeeth was also narrated by Muslim (1438), whose version says: We captured some women of the Arabs and we had been abstinent for a long time; and we wanted to be able to sell them, but we wanted to engage in intimacy with coitus interruptus. We said, “Shall we do that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is among us without asking him about it?” So we asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, “There is no point in doing that, for Allaah has not decreed that any soul should be created until the Day of Resurrection but it will come into existence.”
It may be understood from the hadeeth that those who wanted to engage in ‘azl did so for two reasons: they did not want the women to become pregnant, and they wanted to be able to sell them – if a slave woman got pregnant she could not be sold.
It may also be understood that ‘azl (coitus interruptus) does not change anything. If Allaah decrees that a child should be born, water (semen) will come out before the man realizes it.

Secondly:
Allaah has permitted intimacy with a slave woman if the man owns her. This is not regarded as adultery as suggested in the question. Allaah says, describing the believers (interpretation of the meaning):
“those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts)
Except from their wives or (the slaves) that their right hands possess,__ for then, they are free from blame”
[al-Mu’minoon 23:5]
What is meant by “those whom their right hands possess” is slave women or concubines. See also question no. 10382, 12562.
Once this is understood, it should be noted that what is suggested in the question, that this was zina, never occurred to the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them). What they were asking about was the ruling on practicing ‘azl with the slave women whom they had acquired in the course of jihad.
Moreover ‘azl may be done with a concubine or with a wife, if she agrees to that. See question no. 11885.
And Allaah knows best.
Islam Q&A

Saad said...

Japie,

If a man is stoned to death for raping a slave woman, so according to you Islam permit rape??

No..If it was permitted then why death for raping a slave woman.

Get some brain from Supermarket..

Saad said...

Sahih bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 806:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
A man came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque, and he called him, saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.'" The Prophet turned his face to the other side, but that man repeated his statement four times, and after he bore witness against himself four times, the Prophet called him, saying, "Are you mad?" The man said, "No." The Prophet said, "Are you married?" The man said, "Yes." Then the Prophet said, 'Take him away and stone him to death." Jabir bin 'Abdullah said: I was among the ones who participated in stoning him and we stoned him at the Musalla. When the stones troubled him, he fled, but we over took him at Al-Harra and stoned him to death.

Saad said...

Look what Torah say

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

Saad said...

Illegal sexual intercourse.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 813:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
When Ma'iz bin Malik came to the Prophet (in order to confess), the Prophet said to him, "Probably you have only kissed (the lady), or winked, or looked at her?" He said, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet said, using no euphemism, "Did you have sexual intercourse with her?" The narrator added: At that, (i.e. after his confession) the Prophet ordered that he be stoned (to death).

Saad said...

Illegal sexual intercourse is not allowed in Islam..
For a married man, the punishment is stoned to death..
For an unmarried, the punishment is less strict, if sex is mutual.
For Rape (woman or slave woman) by unmarried or married, it is stoning to death penalty (Rajam).

Sahih bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

Before writing an article , read all the hadees in Islam.

Saad said...

Punishment for unmarried guilty of illegal sex.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 818:
Narrated Zaid bin Khalid Al-Jihani:
I heard the Prophet ordering that an unmarried person guilty of illegal sexual intercourse be flogged one-hundred stripes and be exiled for one year. Umar bin Al-Khattab also exiled such a person, and this tradition is still valid.

For a Married person and Rape (of woman or slave woman) done by (married or unmarried) is death penalty.(Rajam)
For unmarried guilty of mutual sex, punishment above is less severe of flogging..

Japie said...

@Saad, as Unknown and everyone in this thread has already shown over and over again, there are different rules for Muslims towards other Muslims than from Muslims towards Kufar. The Quran clearly says you can have sex with a slave and with captives whom your right hand posses. Then there are many examples from the Hadith that show examples. Please read them, then check them against the Hadith online and see them for yourselves. How can you stay with a religion that endorses slavery and worse allows men to have sex with their slaves. This is pure hate for no Muslims. There is a different way. There is a better way, a better man, a better book! Please come to Jesus. What a difference. While Mohammad had slaves and many wives, Jesus was not even married. He even reached out to non-Israelite women. While Mohammad commanded violent subjugation of the people of the book, Jesus commands to love your enemy and pray for them and do good to them. Imagine if everyone in the Middle East started doing this? The problems would be solved instantly. That would be real peace. Islam does not have this. It has only hate. You don't need that, surely you don't want that. Come to Isa! Many Muslims are coming to Him and so can you. At least ask God for the truth. He will reveal it to you, I'm sure of it.

Japie

Rhema said...

QUOTE:
A mujaahid does not have to be married in order to gain possession of a “slave whom one’s right hand possesses.” None of the scholars expressed such a view.

If a mujaahid takes possession of a female slave or male slave, it is permissible for him to sell them. In either case – whether one acquires a slave through battle or through purchase – it is not permissible for a man to have intercourse with a female slave until she has had a period from which it may be ascertained that she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant then he must wait until she gives birth.

Islam limited the sources of slaves which existed before the mission of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to just one source, namely slavery resulting from capturing prisoners from among the kuffaar.

SOURCE: https://islamqa.info/en/12562

According to this Islamic site - a man may be single and own sex slaves.

Saad said...

Japie,

You cannot rape a woman (muslim or non Muslim). Hadees is provided above.

You cannot RAPE your slaves (whether Muslim or NON MUSLIM). Hadees is provided where a war general who took part in so many battle to defend Islam was Stoned to dearh for raping a woman capturing during war.

So, forceful sex (rape) in any case is not allowed. (Muslim or Non muslim or Slave or Non Muslim slave.)

Now, few scholars say sex (mutual) with right hand posses (slave) was allowed. They generally follow Wahabism or Salafi doctrine of scholar Ibn Taimiyya or Abdul Wahab. True Muslim dont follow above fake extremist. Wahabis are notorius for distorting Quran meaning.Even Wahabis scholar Ibn Taimiya does not justify Raping your captives.

Most scholars deduce even mutual sex with slave is Not allowed.
Hadees which say mutual sex is allowed are fabricated or not true.

Now, Quranic verse you mention in your post above about right hand posses does NOT have the word "Sex" or "Rape" or "Rape your right hand posses".
What does it mention - open your heaet and read - "Right hand posses has been made lawful to you"
The word "lawful" does NOT imply in no way that you can rape non muslim or muslim captives.

Bukhari was written more than 200 years after prophet (saw) death. All scholars agree that all the hadees is not true..
Even Imam bukhari himself said all hadees collected by him are not true. Of the 300,000 hadith he collected, he considered only 100,000 might be true. He then narrowed this number down to 7,275, many of which are repetitions, so that the total number is in fact near 3,000.
Also, out of 3000 graded Sahih by him, few percentage are graded as weak or fabricated by other noted scholars.
For example, Bukari sahih note that there is bad luck in women. This hadees is fabricated because all prophets mother were women. Secondly, Under Islamic teachings, heavens lies under feet of mother.

So, it prove all hadees in bukhari ia not true.

READ the actual meaning of Right hand posses. Go to this link.

quransmessage.com/articles/sex%20with%20slave%20girls%20FM3.htm

Hence, Do not pick any hadees and jump to conclusions..

Any Judgement should always come from Quran and then all the hadees regarding that particular topic is research and then a judgement us made.

Also, there is not a single hadees reporting where FORCEFUL sex is allowed.
If forceful sex was done.. Penalty was Stoned to drath.

Further, You cannot put your slave into prostitution.
Also, Quran verses has also been provided above to urging muslims to release your Slaves as this was part of Imaan (religion).

Read the link above on right hand posses to remove your confusion.

Japie said...

@ Saad

"You cannot RAPE your slaves (whether Muslim or NON MUSLIM). Hadees is provided where a war general who took part in so many battle to defend Islam was Stoned to dearh for raping a woman capturing during war."

I have already replied to you about this. This hadith only mentions that he was stoned, not WHY he was stoned to death. It does NOT mention rape.

"Now, Quranic verse you mention in your post above about right hand posses does NOT have the word "Sex" or "Rape" or "Rape your right hand posses"."

Yusuf Ali's translation:
"Qur’an 23:1-6—The Believers must (eventually) win through—those who humble themselves in their prayers; who avoid vain talk; who are active in deeds of charity; *who abstain from sex*, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess—for (in their case) they are free from blame."

Sahih international: "And they who guard their private parts, Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed"

Lets see what one of your most trusted scholars, Ibn Kathir has to say on the meaning of this verse:
(And those who guard their private parts. Except from their wives and their right hand possessions, for then, they are free from blame. But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors.) means, those who protect their private parts from unlawful actions and do not do that which Allah has forbidden; fornication and homosexuality, and do not approach anyone except the wives whom Allah has made permissible for them or their right hand possessions from the captives.

So clearly the context shows it means sex.

"Bukhari was written more than 200 years after prophet (saw) death. All scholars agree that all the hadees is not true..
Even Imam bukhari himself said all hadees collected by him are not true. Of the 300,000 hadith he collected, he considered only 100,000 might be true. He then narrowed this number down to 7,275, many of which are repetitions, so that the total number is in fact near 3,000."

This means nothing. The current Hadith of Bukhari ARE the remaining authentic 7,275 hadith

All your other claims rely on hadith mentioned being false and you have not demonstrated this.

Clearly, the Quran allows a Muslim man to have sex with his slave girls. Since a slave is property, no consent is necessary. Hence by implication, rape is allowed.

Saad said...

@Japie..

Read the hadees again

Harun ibn Al-Asim reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab sent Khalid ibn Al-Waleed with the army and Khalid sent Dirar ibn Al-Azwar along with a company and they invaded a district belonging to the tribe of Asad. They captured a beautiful girl and Dirar was impressed with her. He asked his companions to give her to him and they did, then he had intercourse with her. A letter was sent to Umar and he replied:

فَكَتَبَ عُمَرُ أَنْ أَرْضِخْهُ بِالْحِجَارَةِ
He should be stoned to death.

First, after reading above hadees it is clear to anybody with little sense that Dirar was sentenced to death for capturing and raping a woman by caliph of that time Umar bin Khattab.
Secondly, Stoning to death (Rajm) was punishment at that time for raping and adultery.
Thirdly, the hadees does not mention of any war bounty.
Fourthly, never in Islamic history or Sharia, a man or woman was sentenced to death for unjustly taking war booty.

The above Sahih hadees prove that if you rape a slave (war captive) woman... You should be stoned to death.


This is conformity with one verse of Quran..

Quran 24:33
"And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Note from above verse: "Do not compel your slave girls into prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste"

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: "Musaykah, a slave-girl of some Ansari, came and said: My master forces me to commit fornication.
Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your slaves to prostitution (when they desire chastity). (24:33)"
(Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud, Divorce (Kitab Al-Talaq), Book 12, Number 2304)"

The problem with you is that you cannot digest the fact that Stoned to death is penalty for raping a slave in Islam.
So that your problem..

Saad said...

@Japie
Now, my above reply makes it pretty clear that raping a slave is death.

Now, coming to Yusuf ali translation and Ibn kathir tafsir, it is No where written you can rape or force your slave or right hand posses for sex.
I dont know how mutual sex is or can be implied as rape.

Saad said...

@Japie

My third comment..authentic hadees in bukhari..

Al-Hafiz ibn Hajar mentions a quote in an-Nukat ‘Ala ibn as-Salah that according to a number of Imams such as Yahya ibn Sa’id al-Qattan, Abdur Rahman ibn Mahdi, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and others, the total number of hadiths (i.e. authentic) is 4,400. In Jami’ al-Ulum wa al-Hikam, ibn Rajab cites Abu Dawud as saying, “I examined the Musnad Hadiths (those that are connected with authentic chains) and found them to be 4,000.”

Just open your eyes and read only 4000 in all the hadees collected from prophet (saw) which is authentic..

Now coming to Bukhari, The total number of hadiths that are in the authentic collection of al-Bukhari and Muslim, be they agreed upon, or reported by only one of the two is said to be approximately 2900 without repetition.

So, it comes down to 2900 .. When you say 7275 .. You are bloating falsely.

https://islamicsciences.wordpress.com/2006/08/10/the-total-number-of-authentic-hadiths/

Japie said...

@Saad - it's so interesting that when I use Hadith as evidence, you say that many of the Hadith are fabricated or inauthentic. Then you proceed using Hadith to prove your case without any demonstration why your hadiths are authentic and mine are not. You're clearly using double standards.

You are also using a double standard when you claim that because the Quran doesn't mention sex or rape in the ayats I quoted, it is not talking about having sex or rape with what your right hand possesses. Yet you use as prove, repeatedly, the story of Dirar who had intercourse with the captured girl. And you conclude he was to be stoned to death because he raped her, even though the word rape is NOT mentioned here at all. Can't you see that you use double scales here? Isn't this inconsistent and dishonest?

"So, it comes down to 2900 .. When you say 7275 .. You are bloating falsely."

The 2900 are what's left if you remove the repeated hadiths from the 7275 or however many they are in Bukhari's volumes. So again, you have proved nothing.





Japie said...

@Saad - "Now, coming to Yusuf ali translation and Ibn kathir tafsir, it is No where written you can rape or force your slave or right hand posses for sex."

No it does not say literally rape, but like I have repeatedly said, a slave is property. Does a Muslim need permission to enter his own property? Of course not. Why should it be different with a slave if he is allowed to sleep with her.

But then I stumbled upon this interesting Hadith or early source from Al Muwatta

Yahya related to me from Malik from Humayd ibn Qays al-Makki that a man called Dhafif said that Ibn Abbas was asked about coitus interruptus. He called a slave-girl of his and said, "Tell them." She was embarrassed. He said, "It is alright, and I do it myself." Malik said, "A man does not practise coitus interruptus with a free woman unless she gives her permission. There is no harm in practising coitus interruptus with a slave-girl without her permission. Someone who has someone else's slave-girl as a wife, does not practise coitus interruptus with her unless her people give him permission." Al-Muwatta 29 32 100b

"Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."" Bukhari 3237 and Muslim 1436

So a wife is not allowed to refuse consent, how will a slave concubine have any rights to refuse??

Bluenoser12 Cam said...

Knowledge of the Sunnah comes primarily from the hadiths (“reports”) about Muhammad’s life, which were passed down orally until codified in the eighth century AD, some hundred years after Muhammad’s death. The hadiths comprise the most important body of Islamic texts after the Quran; they are basically a collection of anecdotes about Muhammad’s life believed to have originated with those who knew him personally. There are thousands upon thousands of hadiths, some running to multiple pages, some barely a few lines in length. When the hadiths were first compiled in the eighth century AD, it became obvious that many were inauthentic. The early Muslim scholars of hadith spent tremendous labor trying to determine which hadiths were authoritative and which were suspect. In summary... the Hadith's are a bunch of stories that may or may not be true, kind of like Mormonism, say they believe in the Bible but all their "doctrine" comes from the Book of Mormon, made up by Mormon leaders to suit their ideology.. I guess the Quran apparently cannot stand on it's own as a divine book...

Saad said...

@Japie

I said many hadees are not authentic.
I did not say All of them (Hadith) are fabricated. I clearly stated around 2900 hadith are autentic without repetition..

Imam Bukhari, a scholar, has compiled many hadees during his lifetime. Many hadees contradict one another another and many hadees are repetetive narrated from different person. All hadees From all volumes ever written by Imam bukhari has been studied and only 2900 are authentic..

Their are many hadees in bukhari other volumes but most of the hadees is without chain of narration.

Chain of Narration - Hadees passed orally through generation..
1) Prophet Mohammad (saw) to
2) Sahabas (disciples) to
3) Tabaeen (disciples childrens or new muslim) to
4) Taba Tabaeen (disciples children children's or new muslim) to
5) Imam Bukhari..who compiled in his book.

First, Now, in many cases of hadees collected, chain of narration does not go upto prophet Mohammad (saw). A Tabaeen narrate the hadees. The book does not quote from which Sahabas hadees was heard or told. These hadees are not taken as authentic.

Second, many hadees contradict Quran. Since, Quran was written during the lifetime of Prophet (saw), these hadees which contradict Quranic teachings are definitely fabricated.

Third, many Sahih hadees in bukhari contradict each other. One hadees out of them is taken according to logical reasoning and thinking (Fiqh).
For example,
One hadees - The prophet (saw) used to washed hands, face, feets etc Once in Wudu (ablution) before daily prayers.
Second hadees - The prophet (saw) used to washed hands, face, feets etc Twice in Wudu (ablution) before daily prayers.
Third hadees - The prophet (saw) used to washed hands, face, feets etc Thrice in Wudu (ablution) before daily prayers.

Muslims take third hadees of washing thrice in ablution before prayers. Why?
You have to know more about Islam hadees terminology.
The other two hadees with Sahih chain of narration is not taken.

Fourth, many narrator never used to narrate the same word or sentence told by my prophets. They used to narrate according to understand of their topic. Hence, actual meaning is lost in most cases.

Fifth, after 100 years of Prophet (saw) death among Tabaeen or taba tabaeen, few people became corrupt and liar. If their is any allegation noted against them, then hadees is not taken, if they are chain of narration.

Sixth, many narrator had become old and so when Bukari met them, they had a week memory.. Their hadees are not taken..

Seventh, if the age chronology does not match. Means, you are narrating hadees to me. Suppose, You are Tabaeen and I am Taba Tabaeen.. But, as per history you died in 600AD and I was born in 601AD.
How can you narrate the hadees from your grave. Or I was 5 years old when you narrated the hadees to me. These hadees are taken fabricated.

Eight, one narrator heard the teachings or saw from prophet (saw) in Mecca and then migrated to Syria. Now the hadees is showing he narrated hadees to a Tabaeen who lived and died in Medina and they never met.
So, these are definitely fabricated. Their was no telephone or satellite or internet at that time.

Their are many more reasons why hadees become fabricated.
Their are also separate conditions for weak hadees.

But, all is not fabricated. So, just a hadees from bukari and Muslim will not make it true teachings.

Which hadees is authentic or not.
You have learn more about hadees, including all the persons character who are narrating the particular hadees. You have to know the neanings of whole Quran and Islamic history to tell which does not contradict Quran.

Saad said...

Japie

Yes, you are right the hadees which I provided which shows death to rapist may also be fabricated.
But, according to scholars of Islam, it is not.

Now, I am using double because hadees which does not explicitly said forced sex or Rape. Yes, you are right. Hadees only says Dhirar captured a women (slave) and had sex with her..
But, read the hadees carefully, the hadees also say Stone him to death.

For mutual sex, Stone to death cannot be penalty. This answer your question.

The penalty of Stone to death was applied at that time in that era for Raping or forced sex.

Now, hadees from Bukhari you provided in the above Blog (not the thread) . Let for the sake of argument, agree it is authentic. Again, go and read , none of the hadees say rape or forced sex is allowed.

Saad said...

Japie,

Slave is your property..

This is your own personal thinking. Not Islamic sharia.

If Slave is your property, then you can do anything with it, right.
But look at the hadees below.

Sahih Muslim

Book 015, Number 4086

Abu Mas'ud al-Badri reported: "I was beating my slave with a whip when I heard a voice behind me: Understand, Abu Masud; but I did not recognise the voice due to intense anger. He (Abu Mas'ud) reported: As he came near me (I found) that he was the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he was saying: Bear in mind, Abu Mas'ud; bear in mind. Abu Mas'ud. He (Aba Maslad) said: threw the whip from my hand. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Bear in mind, Abu Mas'ud; verily Allah has more dominance upon you than you have upon your slave. I (then) said: I would never beat my servant in future.


You can beat your property.. So how can you rape her..


Saheeh Muslim Book 015, Number 4082:

Hilal b. Yasaf reported that a person got angry and slapped his slave-girl. Thereupon Suwaid b. Muqarrin said to him: You could find no other part (to slap) but the prominent part of her face. See I was one of the seven sons of Muqarrin, and we had but only one slave-girl. The youngest of us slapped her, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded us to set her free.

You cannot slap your property.. How can you rape her..

Saad said...

Japie..

You quoted the below hadees.

"Yahya related to me from Malik from Humayd ibn Qays al-Makki that a man called Dhafif said that Ibn Abbas was asked about coitus interruptus. He called a slave-girl of his and said, "Tell them." She was embarrassed. He said, "It is alright, and I do it myself." Malik said, "A man does not practise coitus interruptus with a free woman unless she gives her permission. There is no harm in practising coitus interruptus with a slave-girl without her permission. Someone who has someone else's slave-girl as a wife, does not practise coitus interruptus with her unless her people give him permission." Al-Muwatta 29 32 100b

First, this hadees not say Have sex without slave permission.
It says have coitus interruptus without slave permission.
If a slave denies the permission to have sex, then the procees of coitus wont arrive.

Secondly, This hadees gives ample proof that it is fabricated.
Read - "Someone who has someone else's slave-girl as a wife, does not practise coitus interruptus with her unless her people give him permission".

Note: If you marry a slave girl who become your wife. Why will you ask a third person permission to perform your sex act. The hadees say you take previous owner permission. Which say this hadees is fabricated.

Third, scholar Imam Malik who has written above book Al Muwatta has given a Fatwa on rape of woman both free and slave.

"
In our view the man who rapes a woman, regardless of whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a "dowry" like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. (Imam Maalik, Al-Muwatta', Volume 2, page 734)

If raping of slave is allowed why will he pronounce about Fatwa.

The Prophet particularly encouraged Muslims to free their female slaves and to marry them.

Abu Burda reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

وَرَجُلٌ كَانَتْ عِنْدَهُ أَمَةٌ فَأَدَّبَهَا فَأَحْسَنَ تَأْدِيبَهَا وَعَلَّمَهَا فَأَحْسَنَ تَعْلِيمَهَا ثُمَّ أَعْتَقَهَا فَتَزَوَّجَهَا فَلَهُ أَجْرَانِ

There is a double reward for a man who owns a servant girl and he mentors her, teaches her beautiful manners, educates her in the best way, and then he emancipates (free) her and marries her.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 97, Grade: Sahih

Japie said...

@Saad

"First, this hadees not say Have sex without slave permission.
It says have coitus interruptus without slave permission"

Coitus interruptus is sex

You said it yourself:
"Read - "Someone who has someone else's slave-girl as a wife, does not practise coitus interruptus with her unless her people give him permission".

Note: If you marry a slave girl who become your wife. Why will you ask a third person permission to perform your sex act. The hadees say you take previous owner permission. Which say this hadees is fabricated."

See you equate coitus interruptus with sex act

About fabricated hadith, you make an assumption that whenever a hadith is inconsistent or contradictory or does not make sense, it must have been fabricated. Maybe Mohammed was just inconsistent and contradicted himself. Oh but he is the prophet, he would never do that. Ah, but that is the disputed question isn't it?

"Note: If you marry a slave girl who become your wife. Why will you ask a third person permission to perform your sex act. The hadees say you take previous owner permission. Which say this hadees is fabricated."

The third person was the previous slave owner or maybe is still slave owner (not sure how this works), so it is not a random third person. But anyway, why would it prove the hadith is fabricated? Which hadith authentication are you refering to? Or are you making this up?

With regards to the fatwa, if a Muslim rapes someone else's slave, yes he is to be punished. Not necessarily the slave owner, because sex without consent would not be considered rape. But I will check this out and get back to you.

Notbrainwashedlikeyouguys. said...

None of you can even understand this book, then why on earth are you wasting your lives on it?

Unknown said...

DENIAL IS NOT A RIVER IN EGYPT!

MUSLIMS RAPE LIKE FISH SWIM!

AllieQ said...

Regardless of whether or not the slave has to givse consent for sex, I think the bigger concern is that the men are allowed to even have sex with their slaves. So they not only get to have sex with their four wives, but also their slave girls?

Considering the Muslim community has been very vocal of how sex crazed and immoral they feel westernized countries are, it seems their holy book is justifying the very behavior they are so much against.

Plus, angels will smite their wife if she doesn't want to have sex that night? Is there anything in the Koran that states angels will be smiting husbands if they refuse their wife (or I guess in their case wives)?

can women have consensual sex with their male slaves?

There seems to be an awful lot of scripture justifying the sexual behaviors of men.

Vanguard said...

Allah is a moon god .. islam is a devil trick to mislead humankind so many controversy in quran .. thank You Jesus for chosing me as Your child amen

Saad said...

Vanguard,

Even the illeterate of Muslim dont worship Moon.

Moon, star, sun, planets, Meteors, Asteroids, comets etc are all creations.
Not Creator.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is lovely Prophet send by God.
Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God. Anything which dies or will die is very lowly or feeble to be worshipped as God.

Saad said...

Japie

Coitus interruptus is definitely a sex act.

I repeat myself.

"Note: If you marry a slave girl who become your wife. Why will you ask a third person permission to perform your sex act. The hadees say you take previous owner permission. Which say this hadees is fabricated."

This hadees is clearly fabricated because sex act is private between man and wife in a marriage. The hadees has word Marry.
Why will a third person dictate a sex act.


Further, Privacy between marriage is mandatory in Islam.

It is actually the right of both spouses that the other not discuss their private moments with anyone else. Note the following sahih hadith:

"Is there any man among you who goes to his wife, closes the door behind them, covers themselves and conceal themselves by Allah's concealing?" They said: "Yes." He then said: "Then he sits after that [with others] and says, 'I did this and that.'" They were silent. He then turned to the women and said: "Do any of you talk about such things?" They, too, were silent. Then a young girl stood up on her toes so the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) could see her and hear her and she said: "O Messenger of Allah they [the men] certainly talk about that and they [the women] also talk about it." He (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Do you know what they are like? They are like a female devil who met a male devil in the street and they satisfied their desires with the people looking on."
[Abu Daud - Sahih]

Spouses cannot discuss sex life or acts with a third person.

Hence, above Hadees is fabricated.

Saad said...

AlieQ,

First, The verses are Quran (70:29-30, 23:5-6) which speaks of Right hand posses. Both these Surahs (23&70) were revealed in Makkah. Later, in Madina, the law concerning sex with captive women was completed vide 4:25. Which specifically mentions Nikah with them after the payment of Mehr.

So, we are talking about earlier practice where sex was allowed outside marriage with captives.

Secondly, the Arabic word ‘WA’ means ‘AND’, while ‘AU’ is for the word ‘OR’.

In both these verses above of Right hand posses, the word ‘AU’ has occurred implying the permission of sex with their wives "or" the captives they possess.
It will become evident that for general believers, the sexual relation with captives while they have wives, is Not permitted.

Married man CANNOT have sex with war captives or slaves.

So, we are also talking about Unmarried man having sex with war captives.

Proof was given above you cannot Rape any women or war captive. Consent was required. Raping has death penalty.

Also, Quran is only religious book which has the phrase "Marry only one".
Four are allowed. Not mandatory.

Bible has No marriage limits. You can marry as many.
There are many instances of sex slavery in bible also.

SweetJ said...

According to the Qur'an, Allah is the "best of deceivers" (3:54; 8:30). The phrase is often translated into English as "best of planners," "best of schemers," or "best of plotters," but the root word (makr) means "deception." Hence, the following Qur'an verses should be rendered as follows:

Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

Qur'an 7:99—Are they then safe from Allah's deception? No one feels safe from Allah's deception except those that shall perish.

Qur'an 8:30—And (remember) when the unbelievers plotted deception against you (O Muhammad), to imprison you, or kill you, or expel you. They plotted deception, but Allah also plotted deception; and Allah is the best of deceivers.

Since the Bible declares that Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44), the question must be raised: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

Unknown said...

My question is this. Did muhammad have sex with a 9 year old by the name of aisha?

Albarra Al-Thowaini said...

No, rape is physically harmful and it’s strictly forbidden in Islam.



And Safiyya bint 'Ubaid said:
"A governmental male-slave tried to seduce a slave-girl from the Khumus of the war booty till he deflowered her by force against her will; therefore 'Umar flogged him according to the law, and exiled him, but he did not flog the female slave because the male-slave had committed illegal sexual intercourse by force, against her will." Az-Zuhri said regarding a virgin slave-girl raped by a free man: The judge has to fine the adulterer as much money as is equal to the price of the female slave and the adulterer has to be flogged (according to the Islamic Law); but if the slave woman is a matron, then, according to the verdict of the Imam, the adulterer is not fined but he has to receive the legal punishment (according to the Islamic Law).
Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 9, Book 89, Hadith 81

Ottovico VIX said...

No, rape is forbidden in Islam.

And Safiyya bint 'Ubaid said:
"A governmental male-slave tried to seduce a slave-girl from the Khumus of the war booty till he deflowered her by force against her will; therefore 'Umar flogged him according to the law, and exiled him, but he did not flog the female slave because the male-slave had committed illegal sexual intercourse by force, against her will." Az-Zuhri said regarding a virgin slave-girl raped by a free man: The judge has to fine the adulterer as much money as is equal to the price of the female slave and the adulterer has to be flogged (according to the Islamic Law); but if the slave woman is a matron, then, according to the verdict of the Imam, the adulterer is not fined but he has to receive the legal punishment (according to the Islamic Law).
Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 9, Book 89, Hadith 81

Ottovico VIX said...

Weird

Saad said...

I have already stated above but people dont read..


ActualShariaLaw regarding Rape:

Regarding the crime of rape, the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) applied the legal punishment of death penalty.

a) Raping a free woman:

Abu Alqama reported: A woman went out to pray during the time of the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) and she was met by a man who attacked her and raped her. She said, “This man has molested me!” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

ارْجُمُوهُ

"He is condemned to death".

Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 1454 (Grade: Sahih).

b) Raping a prisoner of war/captives:

Similarly, Umar (second Caliph) condemned a man to death for having unlawful intercourse with a female captive he had acquired during war.

Harun ibn Al-Asim reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab sent Khalid ibn Al-Waleed with the army and Khalid sent Dirar ibn Al-Azwar along with a company and they invaded a district belonging to the tribe of Asad. They captured a beautiful girl and Dirar was impressed with her. He asked his companions to give her to him and they did, then he had intercourse with her. A letter was sent to Umar (second caliph) and he replied:

فَكَتَبَ عُمَرُ أَنْ أَرْضِخْهُ بِالْحِجَارَةِ

"He should be stoned to death"

Source:
Sunan Al-Kubra 16761
Sunan Al Bayhaqi, Volume 2, page 363, Hadith no. 18685. (Grade: Sahih).

Saad said...


How manipulater dostort translation of Quran..

Quran 3:54
Translation:
“And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.”
Transliteration:
"Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena."

The historical background for the verse is that the Jews ‘planned’ evil in order to get Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) arrested and crucified. And Allah in the verse says as they planned evil, so too Allah planned to thwart their wicked plan.

Haters translate according to their own whims this way mentioned below:

“and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers”
Islamic scholar, Maulana Muhammad Shaffi mentions in his commentary on the verse that Allah’s planning involved no deception:

“In these verses the miraculous event of the Ascension of Sayyidna Isa (Jesus Christ) has been mentioned. ‘And they made a move’ refers to the evil designs of the Jews who planned to arrest him and to get him crucified.
The next sentence i.e., ‘and Allah made a move’ refers to the plan designed by Allah Almighty to save his Prophet Isa (Jesus) from their ill designs.
Let us begin with … translated as ‘and Allah is the best of those who make moves’. The word, makr in Arabic denotes a subtle and secret move or plan. If this is for a good purpose, it is good; and if this is for a bad purpose, it is bad. It is why the restriction of saiyy (… : evil) was placed with makr (…: move, plan) in: … (And evil plan besets none but its perpetrator – 35:43).”
[Ma’arifulul-Qur’an By Maulana Muhammad Shaffi volume 2, page 76 – 77]

Glossary Of Islamic Terms: English–Arabic – Anwer Mahmoud Zanaty:
MAKR
Has two meanings:
1. Plotting or planning evil intent.
2. Planning for a good purpose: ‘Wa Makaru wa Makara Allah wa’LLahu Khairul Makereen’ (Surah Aali Imran 3:54. They planned and Allah planned and Allah is the best of planners’.
Makara = they plotted. Makara = He planned.
Makkar = plotter.
Makereen = plotters.
[Glossary Of Islamic Terms: English–Arabic – By Anwer Mahmoud Zanaty page 131 – 132]

Conclusion: Historical context of the revealed verse shows how Allah saved his lovely Prophet Jesus (pbuh) from being arrested and crucifixation by some evil Jews and Romans of that time. Islam clearly states that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was never crucified. Miracle happened as the disciple who betrayed was made to resemble (including face) as Prophet Jesus (pbuh). Romans took him and crucified him.
Prophets are not so feeble and weak that they will be crucified as per corrupt ruling masses.

Quran 4:157
"And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."

Saad said...


Taqiyya is common word to deface Islam..

Quran with regards to deception.

"And, do not cloak (and confuse) the truth with falsehood. Do not suppress the truth knowingly.
(The Noble Quran, 2:42)"

"If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of God on those who lie!"
(The Noble Quran, 3:61)"

And the Unbelievers say to those who believe: "Follow our path, and we will bear (the consequences) of your faults." Never in the least will they bear their faults: in fact they are liars!
(The Noble Quran, 29:12)"

"Is it not to God that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than God (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God." Truly God will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But God guides not such as are false and ungrateful.
(The Noble Quran, 39:3)"

"Ah! they will know on the morrow, which is the liar, the insolent one!
(The Noble Quran, 54:26)"

Now from Hadees.

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three: Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie; and whenever he promises, he breaks his promise; and whenever he is entrusted, he betrays (proves to be dishonest)".
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 117)"

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three: (1) whenever he speaks, he tells a lie, (2) whenever he is entrusted, he proves to be dishonest, (3) whenever he promises, he breaks his promise.
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 847)"

Ibn Mas'ud (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "Truth leads to piety and piety leads to Jannah. A man persists in speaking the truth till he is recorded with Allah as a truthful man. Falsehood leads to transgression and transgression leads to the Hell-fire. A man continues to speak falsehood till he is recorded with Allah as a great liar."
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

"Whoever bears arms against us is not one of us, and whoever Cheats is not one of us (not my follower)."
Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2/108 (Kitab al-iman)

So, lying without a doubt is frowned upon and condemned in Islam.

But, if you still say Quran believe in Taqiyya (deception and lying), you might be pretty old Zionist born with hatred..

Saad said...


Quran 8:30

"And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners."

The historical background for the above verse is that it was revealed because the disbelievers planned to murder Prophet Muhammad (saw). Hence, Allah stopped their evil plan.

Apprehending the Prophet's migration to Madina, the Quraysh convened a high-level council attended by all the tribal chiefs at Dar al-Nadwah (house of Consultation) to decide on a decisive course of action against the Prophet (peace be on him). They realized that once the Prophet (peace be on him) left Mecca, he would be beyond their reach, rendering them helpless to stop spreading of Islam. A group of them was of the view that the Prophet (peace be on him) should be imprisoned for life and kept in chains. This proposal was, however, turned down on the ground that the Prophet's detention would not deter his followers from preaching Islam and that they would seize the first opportunity to release the Prophet (peace be on him) even at the risk to their own lives.

Another group suggested that the Prophet (peace be on him) should be exiled, for this would remove the mischief and subversion far from Mecca, and it would not matter where he spent his days nor what he did, for Mecca would be immune from his influence. This proposal, too, was discarded for fear of the Prophet's persuasiveness and eloquence, and his ability to win the hearts of the people of other tribes and thus pose a greater threat in the future.

Finally, after deep deliberation they hit upon a plan that a number of young men from various Quraish tribes should, in a joint attack, swoop down upon the Holy prophet and kill him.

One men from each plotting tribes (around 40) were selected to attack Prophet to death. In such a case the responsibility for his blood would rest upon all the tribes.

In those days of Arabia, the whole tribe mens used to unite to take revenge, if someone from their own tribe were killed without any charge. Hence, it would thus become almost impossible for Prophet's clan to take revenge on any one particular clan. Such a move would compel the Prophet's relatives to drop their claims for retaliation and force them to settle for blood-money.

Accordingly, the young men charged with the execution of this plan were selected, and were advised of the exact place and time at which they were expected to carry out the crime. Not only that, the would-be assassins did indeed arrive at the appointed place at the appointed time.

However, before they could harm him the Prophet (peace be on him) managed to escape safely (Hijrah) to Medina. The Quraysh evil plot was thus frustrated at the eleventh hour.

(Ibn Hisham, vol. 1, p. 480-482.
Ibn Kathir's comments on the verse)

Saad said...

Unknown Please read..


Was Aisha nine years old when married? No.
Doesn’t the Quran say she was? No.
But don’t the Hadiths say she was?

a) Some do, but they all are second-hand quote from one man Hisham ibn Urwah and are considered weak Hadiths (zaeef). And even they contradict each other greatly.

The cause of the confusion is simple. Imam Bukhari, compiler of Sahih Bukhari included one recalling that Aisha said she was 6 when betrothed and 9 when she was wed.

However, Bukhari included another recording that Aisha was a young girl and remembered when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed — 9 years before her wedding — as well.

Obviously, both Hadiths can’t be true, and that’s the problem with relying too much on Hadiths, and too little on the Quran and common sense.
Further, Hisham ibn Urwah is the person who has narrated this hadees is not reliable.

First it contradicts other hadees and secondly narrater is not reliable.
Here is more in link about narrator
www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.html
b) Aisha was always referred to as bikr in most hadith, which literally means “an adult unmarried woman.” She was never referred to as a jariyah, which is a “young girl.”

c) The earliest surviving biography of Muhammad (Abu Muhammad ‘Abd al-Malik bin Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat RasulAllah — The Life of the Messenger of God) records that Aisha accepted Islam shortly after it was revealed — 12 years before her marriage — and there is no way she could have done so as an infant or toddler.

Aisha’s exact birthday is unknown, but she was born *before* 610 CE when Islam was revealed. Aisha is recorded above as accepting Islam shortly after it was revealed. She could not have done so as an infant or toddler. The youngest she could have accepted Islam would be 7 y/o, but that’s a guess.

She was married in 622 CE, 12 years after she accepted Islam. (7 + 12 =19 years).

d) Further, Aisha fought in the Battles of Badr and Uhud. No one *under* 15 years of age fought in those battles, let alone be a leader of them.

e) Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, dead for more than 700 years, recorded in the biographical section of Miskat al-Masabih and According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra).

It is also reported in Taqri’bu’l-tehzi’b as well as Al-bidayah wa’l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 19 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage consummation..

Aisha (ra) exact date of birth is not recorded in history. Hence, from above chronolgy, she was minimum of 19 or 20 years .. Most probably more aged..

So, before knowing and researching on topic.. Dont comment..

www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_5/age_of_aisha_(P1472).html

Ulf ViKings said...

Consists of nothing but violence on beings whether it be just or not. The hadith - Mohammed is a sick person who had sex with a young girl. Possibly rape. What a corrupt horrible book

Bluenoser12 Cam said...

According to ahadith reported by Bukhari, the Prophet of Islam “married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed [i.e., consummated] that marriage when she was nine years old.” He was at this time in his early fifties. Many Islamic apologists claim — in the teeth of this evidence — that Aisha was actually older. Karen Armstrong asserts that “Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents” home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty.” Unfortunately, her readers are unlikely to have volumes of Tabari on hand to check her assertion; contrary to Armstrong’s account, the Muslim historian quotes Aisha thusly: “The Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine.” (p. 170)

Rute D said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Asif said...

1/2 This refers to answer of a youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR7_YQ53lfI
I understand that brother ISMAIL has a genuine concern and criticizers have wrongly accused him of hypocrite or an agent of some agencies to exploit Islam and Muslims. A couple of response videos I have seen have tried to satisfy his concerns but I understand they could not clarify few fundamental points which I am trying to state here. I advise brother Ismail to read them and reconsider if his change of faith is justified just because of this reason. I also comment, in the end, towards a logical consequence even if he or somebody is still not satisfied and convinced.

One point before I state anything else, keep in mind the historical outcome that all such women were released and Quran’s permission was not actually availed. Still the concern can be valid because the said assertions of Quran were theoretically valid and be there.

First, as some of the response videos have already clarified, the subject even and allowance (permission) was for the women who participated in the war on the ground, not the women whose territory was conquered.

Second, as I understand, it was prohibited to kill the women or the children even in the war field, as far as possible (unless there’s a need of doing so to protect one’s life). If a woman is captured in war field, there was no concept of jail. Such woman, like in the old culture across the religions, were kept in the ownership and in the house of a man, as his slave. They live a house life, not caged, although their rights were not the same as that of a free man or woman.

Third, ‘allowing rape’ is something when a woman is being sexually subjected by many or any man. This was not the case. The allowance / permission was for the owner of the women to establish sexual relationship with his woman slave, if he wanted. There was, not at all any allowance for abuse of any woman, or what is called rape, by any or many man. Even, to my understanding, In Islam it was not even allowed to sell a slave woman to another man. One could keep her, marry her, or free her.

Asif said...

2/2
Fourth, in master slave culture that prevailed across the religions in that era, sexual relations with slave woman were allowed and legitimate. Since such a woman lives with one designated man, in his ownership, it is unlikely, and unnatural as well to let the women untouched. Note that even that this was a norm, Muslims did not establish sexual relationship with those women and were waiting for the permission from Allah SWT for the same. Can you see any example of such a discipline!

Fifth, Quran did allow Muslim man to establish that legitimate sexual relationship, but not urged them to do so. Further, slave women, naturally, had the right to resist. The rights of slaves in Islam, (see a discussion on https://spreadislam.wordpress.com/treatment-to-slaves-servants/), were so generous and rich that, such resistance could not be ignored. These rights eventually caused the vanishing of slavery. Probably it was a context and culture specific assertion; just like Quran allowed to hunt after Hajj (Quran, Al Maida 5:2) (we do not see people hunting after Hajj but it was a permission).

Sixth, remember that Quran or the Prophet (PBUH) did not allow to forcefully convert them to Islam.

Asif said...

3/3
Compare this with alternatives. Muslims would have freed those women outright. In that case a precedent was set that Muslims free war fighting women when captured. Definitely men will disappear from war and these women, with others, would have come again for fighting. Muslims would have killed them; nobody could consider this a better solution. Muslims would have put them in jail (although there was no jail culture at that time, for argument reason, suppose this to be). In that case, the entire life of those women would have been disturbed. When they were slaves, they had the chance to pass relatively a better life, see true nature and insertions of Islam and life style of Muslims against what would have been propagated to them by others. Another alternative is that Muslims would have kept them as slaves but did not establish sexual relationships; at least to me this is unnatural and could have resulted in corruption in some of them. And off course what actually happened already explained by other scholars in the answer to your video; Muslims freed all those women, after an event and protocols, without even availing the permission which God awarded them. Can there be any better outcome! Can there be any better demonstration of the true understanding of God’s permission (not the order)?

And finally, even if you are not convinced with all this, and you think it a cruelty, there is no point to turn to Christianity. If you were converted to Islam with true essence brother, you must know and believe that God is one, not one among three, or father of Christ. Turning to Christianity or any other prevailing religions could just give you an emotional comfort zone, a group association. There is no objective and logical reasoning in joining Christianity after being Muslim. Quran (5:75) says, “The Messiah [Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allah and His Books (see Verse 66:12 also)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)”. What maximum, logically, you could have done is that you would have dissociate yourself with Muslim community and probably Muslim scholars, but keep believing in Oneness of God, Prophets and day of Judgement. You would then have said to God that this assertion of Quran does not make sense to you, and asked for his guidance. And even if you do not find conviction, you could have, logically, kept yourself in a self-developed, cherry picked religion in which you follow all basic beliefs of Islam but do not subscribe to those few assertions. I think you would have been Muslim then in the eyes of God.

Remember that Islam is a practical religion; it has to reach the last generation and last day of the world. Being slapped and offering another cheek for another slap is very good for spiritual development, but is not ideal for survival in this world. Islam keeps a balance. That is why Islam allowed revenge with proper protocols. May Allah SWT gives us true guidance and true understanding of the true path.

Aameen

Japie said...

@ Asif,
"First, as some of the response videos have already clarified, the subject even and allowance (permission) was for the women who participated in the war on the ground, not the women whose territory was conquered."

"Narrated Abdul Aziz:
Anas said, "When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there (early in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet. He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, ‘Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.’ He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, ‘Muhammad (has come).’ (Some of our companions added, ‘With his army.’) We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, ‘O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.’ The Prophet said, ‘Go and take any slave girl.’ He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.’ So the Prophet said, ‘Bring him along with her.’ So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, ‘Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.’" Anas added: "The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."

This passage from the Sirat shows that Mohammed conquered Khaybar by surprise, so no warrying women or anyone else. He allow his companions to take any slave girl they liked, so no distinction between women involved in fighting (how would that have been even wrong?? They were defending their town against muslim invaders).

Quran 33:50 "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

So female slaves are spoils of war

Sunan Abu Dawood: (2991) "Anas said: A beautiful slave-girl fell to Dihyah. The Apostle of Allah purchased her for seven slaves." Shows Mohammed traded slaves.

"Third, ‘allowing rape’ is something when a woman is being sexually subjected by many or any man."

So this leaves the door open for her husband to force himself sexually on her. Of course, in Islam this is perfectly fine as the women must obey her husband.

Japie said...

Asif 2/2...

"Note that even that this was a norm, Muslims did not establish sexual relationship with those women and were waiting for the permission from Allah SWT for the same. Can you see any example of such a discipline!"

I can show you an example that this is completely false:
Sahih Muslim 3371— "We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born."

So have intercourse first, then ask questions later. Then Mohammed encouraged them to not bother with azl anyway.

Japie said...

Asif: 3/3
"Compare this with alternatives. Muslims would have freed those women outright."

Or they could have just not gone around conquering lands and massacring people and taking women and children as captives. They could have lived with them in peace.

"Being slapped and offering another cheek for another slap is very good for spiritual development, but is not ideal for survival in this world. Islam keeps a balance. That is why Islam allowed revenge with proper protocols. May Allah SWT gives us true guidance and true understanding of the true path."

Well how is this revenge protocol working out in the Middle east??

In the end, if all people in the Middle East were to follow Jesus' command about turning the other cheek, you have instant peace. If they follow Mohammed's command, they will have perpetual war and bloodshed.



Audrey Grettie said...

I do not follow any organized religion, but I do find them all interesting with areas of spiritual insight as well as hypocrisy. I am respectfully curious as to how the scholars of the Muslim religion recocile the discrepancies between how the religion is described and how it is practiced by many people. I read the explanations in this thread about acceptable practices regarding the treatment of women, but I hear of a much different practice, quite frankly, the cruel and inhuman treatment of women in general. Is this propaganda or is it an example of uneducated people using religion as an excuse to do what they want to do? And lastly, what is the nation of Islam’s responsibility to holding people accountable for engaging in cruelty and falsely attributing it to a religious practice?

Santosh Mishra said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Saad said...

Santosh Mishra

You should leave Hinduism before questioning Islam. Why??

�� Rama married six years old Sita.
�� Krishna married eight years old Rukmini.
�� Shiv married six years old Parvati.

Proof here..

�� 1) Rama married six years old Sita.

As per Valmiki Ramayana, Rama is said to have married Sita when she was 6 years old.

a) Valmiki Ramayana, Aranya Kanda: Book 3. Chapter [Sarga] 47. verses 3-4 & 10:
दुहिता जनकस्य अहम् मैथिलस्य महात्मनः |
सीता नाम्ना अस्मि भद्रम् ते रामस्य महिषी प्रिया || ३-४७-३
“I am the daughter of noble-souled Janaka, the king of Mithila, by name I am Seetha, and the dear wife and queen of Rama, let safety betide you”.
उषित्वा द्वा दश समाः इक्ष्वाकूणाम् निवेशने |
भुंजाना मानुषान् भोगान् सर्व काम समृद्धिनी || ३-४७-४
“On residing in the residence of Ikshvaku-s in Ayodhya for twelve years”, ...
मम भर्ता महातेजा वयसा पंच विंशकः || ३-४७-१०
अष्टा दश हि वर्षाणि मम जन्मनि गण्यते |
My great-resplendent husband was of twenty-five years of age at that time, and to me eighteen years are reckoned up from my birth.”

(Tr. Sri Desiraju Hanumantha Rao).

— Note: Sita after marrying at 6, lived in the palace of King Dashrath for 12 years. When she was sent to exile with her husband, she was 18 years old.

b) Skanda Purana III.ii.30.8-9

“The bow of Isvara that was kept in the abode of Janaka, was broken. In his fifteenth year, O king, Rama married the six year old beautiful daughter of the king of Mithila, Sita who was not born of a womb. On getting Sita, Raghava became contented and happy.”

(Tr. Ganesh Vasudeo Tagare)

Saad said...

Santosh Mishra

2) Krishna married eight years old Rukmini.

a) Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krishna Janma Khanda 112.1-10

“…Lord Krisna beheld the smiling Rukmini in the prime of her youth lying down with great pleasure on a bed adorned with gems. She was not yet fully developed and had just attained puberty. She had just ceased to be a newly married bride…Rukmini, the daughter of Bhismaka, as soon as she saw Krisna bowed before his feet. Later on, Lord Krisna committed sexual intercourse with her at an auspicious moment…”

(Tr. Rajendra Nath Sen, Edited by B.D. Basu)

b) Skanda Purana V.iii.142.8-79

“…The second child born was a daughter named 'Rukmini'. At that time an unembodied ethereal voice told him, ‘O Bhismaka, this girl should be given to a Four-armed One (born) on this earth.’… As time passed on she became a girl of eight years. The king recollected the words of the embodied being and became worried. ‘To whom shall I give this daughter? Who will be the four-armed one?’… In the meantime Damaghosa, the chieftain of Cedi came there from the excellent mountain Raivata. He entered the royal palace where King Bhismaka was present. On seeing him arrived in the abode, the king duly adored him. He was taken to the Royal Court and given a proper seat. ‘This day has dawned meritoriously. I was eager to see you. O great king, my daughter has come to the �� age of eight years. The ethereal voice of an unembodied being has told that she should be given to a Four-armed one.’ On hearing the words of Bhismaka, Damaghosa said thus: ‘My son is well known in all the three worlds as Four-armed One (Caturbhuja). O Bhismaka, let this girl be given to Sisupala.’ On hearing the words of Damaghosa, O king, Rumini was betrothed to Sisupala by Bhismaka. The auspicious ceremonial beginning was made by Bhismaka, O Yudhisthira. All the kinsmen and members of the family who were staying far-off countries in every direction, were invited and they duly arrived…At the time of dusk, Rukmini, the bride of seductive charms, went out of the city accomplished by her female companions for the worship of Ambika. There she saw Hari, the Lord of Devas, in the guise of a cowherd. On seeing him, she was excited by the god of Love and became completely fascinated. On seeing her, Kesava said to Sankarsana, ‘On dear brother in my view the excellent jewel of a girl should be taken away.’ On hearing the words of Kesava, Sankarsana said: ‘Go ahead, O Krsna, O mighty one. Let the jewel of a girl be seized quickly. I shall follow you closely behind causing much havoc unto all these demons. On getting the consent of Sankarsana, Kesava, the slayer of Kesin, seized the girl, immediately put her on the chariot and went off…Rukma said: O Lord Kesava, unlucky and sinful that I am, I had hit your chest with arrows. It behoves you to forgive me. Formerly Janaki was given over to you by Janaka himself. Now, O lord of Devas, Rukmini is offered unto you by me. Marry her duly in accordance with the injunctions…When Rukma went back Krsna invited excellent Brahmanas. They were the seven mental sons of Brahma…In this manner the Slayer of Madhu honoured them duly and perfectly and then grasped the hand of Rukmini in marriage.”

(Tr. G.V. Tagare)

c) A Hindu scholar writes,

“After the worship Rukmini took part of the offerings she had made to the goddess, as a token of the goddess’s blessings. She then left the temple and was walking towards the waiting chariot.

Rukmini, who was of exquisite beauty though she had not yet attained puberty, looked for Krsna among the assembled princes.”

(The Concise Srimad Bhagavatam, By Swami Venkatesananda, page 292, Publisher SUNY Press, 1989).

Rukmini did not yet attained puberty at the time of Marriage.

Saad said...

Santosh Mishra
3) Shiv married Parvati when she was not even 6 years old as confirmed by Swami Parmeshwaranand.

a) Shiva Purana, Rudrasamhita, Parvatikhanda, section III.11.1-2

“Brahma said:- O Narada, the daughter of the mountain, honoured in the three worlds, was brought up in the palace of Himacala. When she was eight years old, Siva distressed by Sati’s separation came to know of her birth. Keeping her wonderful memory within his heart He rejoiced much.”

(Tr. J.L. Shastri)

b) Skanda Purana I.i.20.1

“Lomasa said: The chaste girl grew up day by day and shone very much. Living in the house of Himalaya, she reached the age of eight years”.

(Tr. G.V. Tagare).

c) Vamana Purana 25.8-27

“The great god Brahman said, ‘This austere girl is not capable of holding the semen of Sankara. Leave this poor girl.’ But then O Narada, the enraged Kutila said to Brahmana, ‘O Lord, I shall so endeavour that I hold the semen of Sankara which is very difficult to be born…She too who was called Ragavati, was brought to heaven by the gods. Offering her to Brahman, Prajapati spoke to her in the same manner. Losing her temper, she too said, ‘Truly I shall undergo penance in such a manner that the slayer of Mahisa will become associated with my name. ‘Then the austere Mena knowing, as she did, that the two daughters had already left her, prevented her third daughter from taking to penance. And she exclaimed ‘Uma (O do not practice penance).’ Her mother the brillaint daughter of the Pitrs gave her daughter the name Uma. She then went to the forest…Then Brahman said, ‘She is undoubtedly the consort of Sankara, by whose lustre indeed you have been distracted and have become lustreless…” (Tr. Anand Swarup Gupta)

So the gods tried to marry 6 years old girl to Shiva. Swami Parmeshwaranand explains it as,

“Three daughters named Kutila, Ragini and Parvati and a son named Sunabha were born to Himavan by his wife Mena. The three daughters went to the Himalayas for penance, to get Siva as husband. They were not even six years old then. The Devas saw them. The Adityas and the Vasus took Kutila who was doing penance, to the world of the gods. All the gods gathered together and asked Brahma. “Oh Lord, be pleased to tell us if this girl will be able to hear a son who could kill Mahisasura”. Brahma replied. “This poor girl will not be capable of bearing the radiance of Siva. So let her go away.” Kutila got angry at Brahma and said “Lord, I will try to become fit to bear the unbearable radiance of Siva. Harken, I will do penance properly and please Visnu and make Siva bow his head. I take a vow to that effect.” Brahma became angry and told Kutila, “You, wicked Kutila, you did not succumb to my words. So by my curse you will be turned to water.” Kutila having been cursed by Brahma became water and began to flood the world of Brahma. Seeing the flow of water, Brahma made cause-ways on four sides with the Vedas of Rg, Yajus, Sama and Atharva. Thus being tied up she stays in the world of Brahma. The Devas took Ragini also before Brahma and put the same question. The reply of Brahma was the same as before. She also got angry and said to Brahma. “I will do great penance so as to enable to give birth to one in my family to be the killer of Mahisasura.” Brahma cursed her also. “You are deliberately disobeying my words which even Devas won’t gainsay. So you will become the colours of the twilight.” Thus, she became the fast colours of the twilight, and her body was divided among the Pleiades. (Vamana Purana, Chapter 51).”

(Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Puranas, Volume 1, p.237, by Swami Parmeshwaranand, Published by Sarup & Sons, 01-Jan-2001).

Japie said...

Saad,
"You should leave Hinduism before questioning Islam. Why??

�� Rama married six years old Sita.
�� Krishna married eight years old Rukmini.
�� Shiv married six years old Parvati."

With all the evidence you just provided with regards to child marriage, do you claim that child marriage is equally bad or equally good in Hinduism as well as in Islam? It's all good and well pointing out that Hinduism has child marriage too, but what is your conclusion? That therefore it's ok? Or that they are both bad?

Saad said...

Japie,

Reference was toward Santosh Mishra's to first check his own Scripture.

Above comment should not be taken as approval for child marriage in any sense.

Child marriage has not been sanctioned anywhere in Islam. I believe in the same.

Further, I have already given my point in above earlier comments that the Hadees of Aisha's (ra) age of marriage is chronologically refuted.

Japie said...

Saad,

Those above comments of yours are at best a testimony of the inconsistency of your scriptures.

Nevertheless here is a quote from the Quran on the waiting period in divorse:

"And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease." Sura 65:4

Who are those who do not menstruate? older women? No they are already mentioned. Adult women, not they do menstruate. Obviously it's prepubescent children.
So if you can divorse a pre-memstruating girl, you must have married her first. So it is assumed here.

Ibn Kathir clarifies:
"Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. ﴿see 2:228﴾ The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause."

Again, the context is divorse which is AFTER having married her and the divorse happens BEFORE the wife has menstruated.

Saad said...

Japie,

What about women who reach age of maturity before menses cycle?? Doesn't science confirm delayed menstrual cycle in many womens??

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/

Saad said...

Quran 65:4 clearly speak of adult women only.

“Those who have not menstruate” shoud be translated as “Those (older women) who didn't menstruate (reached menopause)”.

Japie said...

Nope

"And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated."

You see, Those (older women) are mentioned already first in the verse. The second group "and those who have not menstruated" can therefore not be the same group.

"What about women who reach age of maturity before menses cycle?? Doesn't science confirm delayed menstrual cycle in many womens??"

Possibly, but then what about girls who menstruate early? The verse does not exclude them either.

Saad said...

Japie,

1) For the sake of argument, older women and very young girl are mentioned in above Quranic verse.

What about Iddah (waiting period) after divorce of middle aged woman (age bracket 16-51) if they are not pregnant??

2) The first 7 verse of Quran 65:1-7 speaks of divorce and its ruling.

Divorce during menstrual cycle and pregnancy are NOT valid in Islam.

Hence, that verse 65:4 shape up as “those not menstruating”, there waiting perid is 3 months for next marriage.

Read here for more clarification??

www.answering-christianity.com/minimum_age_for_marriage.htm

Japie said...

Saad,

1. That's the whole point of the verse, to wait 3 months if you doubt. So presumably if you are not sure if they have completed stopped menstruating, or if you are not sure if they have started menstruating. So in the latter case, if a husband is not sure if the girl has started having periods or not.

2. What's your point? The problem here is that "women" who have never menstruated are mentioned as a divorce scenario at all.

Saad said...

1) And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months 👉 refer to Older woman
(women attained menopause - average age is 51 years)

and [also for] those who have not menstruated. 👉 refer to young girl (your argument)

Why will Quran fail to mention waiting period for middle age women divorced??
oh Common, it is not so difficult to understand.

Hence, your assumption that “those who have not menstruated 👉 refer to young girl” is completely wrong.

Saad said...

2) Point is that you cannot divorce your wife when she is having period.

Hence, Quran refers to period in month when menstruation is over.

Difference between “those not menstruating” and “those who have never menstruated”.

Saad said...

Eg Suppose your wife has period for 10 days in a month.

Rest 20 days means “Not menstruating”.

Japie said...

Saad, "not menstruating" is different from "not menstruated". The latter means never, while the former means not at this point in time.

Wa Al-Lā'ī Lam Yaĥiđna

wa ( وَ ) = and

Al-Lā'ī ( وَاللَّائِي ) = for those who

Lam ( لَمْ ) = did not (negation in past tense) [2]

Yaĥiđna ( يَحِضْنَ ) = menstruate.

Yaĥiđna comes from the verbal root H-Y-D ( حيض ) which means "to menstruate".

The addition of prefix "Ya" and suffix "na" to the root "HYD" shows that the word is used in used in third person, feminine gender, plural, imperfective aspect.[3]

The imperfective aspect, by itself lacks any tense feature. [2] The tensed negatives like lam ( لَمْ ) (negation in past tense), lan ( لن ) (negation in future tense), laa ( لَ ) (negation in present tense) combined with imperfectives decide the tense in this case.

Thus lam Yadrus = He did not study.

In the verse 65:4, Lam Yaĥiđna = 'those who did not menstruate'.

So if this meant women who are currently not menstruating, it would have used "laa" ( لَ ) which is a negation in present tense. I.e. not currently doing X

Now you might say that "did not menstruate" could just mean that a women did not menstruate during a particular moment in the past. For example, "she did not menstruate during Christmas last year". But the problem with that is that would make the whole scenario irrelevant. If you want to divorse your wife and want to know the ruling, it's irrelevant whether she did not menstruate some time in the past. What matters is, could she be menstruating or be pregnant now, has she ever menstruated before or has she stopped menstruating altogether.

This is how Ibn Kathir understands it, and Al-Jalalayn and Ibn Abbas and Al-Tabari to name a few. Are you a better scholar then them?

For sources and more quotations see: https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur'an.html

Saad said...

Japie,

Lam ( لَمْ ) = did not (negation in past tense) [2]

1) Yes, لَم = Lam is used for negation in Arabic language.

i) But, لَم = Lam is always used with present tense.

Opposite ما = Ma is used for negation with past tense.

www.everyday-arabic.com/2013/12/negation-in-arabic-language.html?m=1

ii) لَم is also used to negate past tense verbs; however, it must be followed by the present form of the verb.

https://blogs.transparent.com/arabic/negation-of-arabic-sentences/
-----------------------------------------------------

Now,
Present tense = women who are currently not menstruating.
Past tense = women who did not menstruate

Since, in above verse لَم is mentioned, hence the translation ahead should be in present form (women who are currently not menstruating).

Thank you for helping me in looking the verse in that way and find an answer.


2) Even if we take the translation as “women who did not menstruate” does not explicitly mean women who has never menstruated. It may be translated as women who are not menstruating.

The word ‘yet’ or ‘never’ are missing in the verse in question. ( لَمَّاْ = lamma = did not yet)

3) Your point of objection ��
a) “But the problem with that is that would make the whole scenario irrelevant. If you want to divorse your wife and want to know the ruling, it's irrelevant whether she did not menstruate some time in the past.

— Divorce is haraam (forbidden) during period. It become relevant, if the verse speaks or tries to deduce wife's present menses condition.

Women stopped menstruating (menopause) = 3 months waiting period
Women currently not menstruating = 3 months waiting period
Women pregnant = till child birth.

Hence, it is relevant.

b) “What matters is, could she be menstruating or be pregnant now, has she ever menstruated before or has she stopped menstruating altogether... ”

— You contradict yourself.
What matters is, .... has she ever menstruated before
contradict
it's irrelevant whether she did not menstruate some time in the past.

4) Regarding Tafseer:
All Tafsir used hadees narrated by Abu Ishaq al-Muqri’ informed us> Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn Hamdun> Makki ibn ‘Abdan> Abu’l-Azhar> Asbat ibn Muhammad> Mutarrif> Abu ‘Uthman ‘Amr ibn Salim. There are 8 narrators. Must have been passed orally and written down after 400-450 years of Prophet's death. Definitely, not reliable.

Except Quran, all book has errors.

Saad said...

WikiIslam uses hadees from Bukhari, Tabari and Ahmed ibn Hanbal.

Contradiction is found in their own book or recordings.

Contradiction:

It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:

pre-610 CE: Age of Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation.
610 CE: First revelation.
610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam.
613 CE: Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) begins preaching publicly.
615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia.
616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet
622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet.

👉 a) Contraction with another Hadees in Bukhari:

Sahih Bukhari, Kitaab al-Tafseer, (Bab Qaulihi Bal al-saaatu Mawiduhum wa al-saatu adhaa wa amarr):

"Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic) when Surah Al-Qamar [the 54th chapter of the Quran] was revealed".

Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al- Qamar (The Moon) was revealed.

According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane's Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sabiyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar.

Obviously, both Hadiths can’t be True.

👉 b) Contradiction with Tabari:

i) Al-Tabari says: "All four of his [Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period"

(Source: Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 2, p. 616, Arabic, Mausasth Ilmi, Beirut, 1979).

ii) “Abu Bakr married two ladies in the days of ignorance (pre-Call era). Fateelah daughter of Abd al-Aza was the first, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Umm-i-Rooman was the second, from whom Abd al-Rahman and ‘Aishah were born. All the four children of Abu Bakr were born in the days of ignorance (Jahiliyyah, i.e., pre-Islamic days) from the above-named two ladies”.
(Source: Ibn Jareer al-Tabari: “Book of history”: Vol 4: page 50)

Tabari states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been atleast 14 years old (minimum) when she began living (624 CE) with the Prophet (saw).

Essentially, Tabari contradicts Bukhari and his own other recordings on Ayesha age.

👉 c) Contradiction in Musnad Ahmed:

“Ayesha was always referred to as bikr in most hadith, which literally means “an adult unmarried woman.” She was never referred to as a jariyah, which is a “young girl.”

Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-arabi, Beirut.

Why pick one and ignore another hadees from the same scholar??
Becoz, it suits your hatred




Japie said...

Saad,

"Since, in above verse لَم is mentioned, hence the translation ahead should be in present form (women who are currently not menstruating).

Thank you for helping me in looking the verse in that way and find an answer."

Wait not so fast! yaḥiḍ'na is still imperfect form, i.e. past tense. So how do you suddenly change this to the present tense? Maybe it should have used a different word for the negation, but it used this word, yet it is still passed tense. Maybe the quran made a grammatical error. who knows.

"— You contradict yourself.
What matters is, .... has she ever menstruated before
contradict
it's irrelevant whether she did not menstruate some time in the past."

No there is no contradiction here. The sentence "A women who at one point in the past did not menstruate" says nothing about whether she has ever menstruated at all. For all we know she never menstruated. Yet it is still true that also during a specific time in the past she did not menstruate. These 2 claims are not mutually exclusive.

As for the errors in the hadeeth, you are only making the case for Islam worse. If these are all so unreliable and contradictory, then you will have to admit that we can know absolutely nothing about Mohammed or his companions.

"Qur'an 4:65—But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission."

How can any muslim be obedient to this command if Muhammed's judgements, sayings, traditions are all contradictory, unreliable and written hundreds of years after. It's interesting that you dispute Ibn Ishaq too whose writings are the earliest about 150 years after Muhammad's death. Other than this and the hadeeth, there is no record of any of Muhammad's life, or sayings. How is the muslim to obey or imitate him?

Saad said...

From the Lexicon, the Arabic word for Menstruate is 'Haidh' (حيض).

Ha-Ya-D (Hey-Alif-Duad) = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
(Lane's Lexicon: Volume 2, page: 322-323).

Yahidna (يَحِضْنَ) — The addition of prefix "Ya" and suffix "na" to the root "Haidh" shows that the word used is for third person, plural, feminine, imperfective verb.

i) The imperfect verb by itself will not denote a particular tense.The negative particle 'lam' would be used to decide the overall tense of the imperfect verb.
The tensed negatives like lam ( لمْ ) (negation in past tense), lan ( لن ) (negation in future tense), laa ( لا ) (negation in present tense) combined with imperfectives decide the tense in this case.

ii) Further, لَم (lam) as used to negate past tense verbs; however, it must be followed by the present form of the verb.

Hence, يَحِضْنَ (Yahidna) being imperfective verb lacking any tense feature when combined with لَم (lam) before makes the word itself in the present form of verb.

The imperfective aspect, by itself lacks any tense feature. Hence, the word ‘Yahidna is in past tense’ as stated above is fabrication.

Saad said...

“As for the errors in the hadeeth, you are only making the case for Islam worse. If these are all so unreliable and contradictory, then you will have to admit that we can know absolutely nothing about Mohammed or his companions”.

i) All hadees are not in contradiction with Quran or each other.

ii) Imam Bukhari collected 600,000 narration.
(Jonathan Brown (2009). Hadith: Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World (Foundations of Islam series, Oneworld Publications. p. 32.)

He narrowed it down to 7275 hadees as Sahih (authentic) which was compiled in book 'Sahih Bukhari'. Around 2602 hadees without repetition (same topic).

Why the scholar who collected the hadees himself refuted so many hadees (300,000 - 7275). ??

Because, it was not reliable.

You cannot follow which Prophet's did not do. If the message is not clear, you don't follow that path.

Saad said...

Prophet Mohammad (ﷺ) died in 632 AD.

Bukhari was born in 810 AD.
👉 Gap of 178 years. Add another 50 years of growing up, understanding Islam, collection of hadees, and then compiling in a book..

Tabari was born in 839 AD.
👉 Gap of 207 years. Add another 50 years of growing up, understanding Islam, collection of hadees, and then compiling in a book..

Ibn al-Athir al-Jazari was born in 1160 AD.
👉 Gap of 530 years. Add another 50 years of growing up, understanding Islam, collection of hadees, and then compiling in a book..

Tafsīr al-Jalālayn, tafsir of the Qur'an, composed first by Jalal ad-Din al-Maḥalli in 1459 AD and then completed by his student Jalal ad-Din as-Suyuti in 1505 AD.
👉 Gap of 873 years.

Do you expect someone to follow a particular hadees from scholar's book, if it has contradiction??

Saad said...

The corruption of Islam was started during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) when hypocrites started spreading lies and misinformation during his lifetime. These people were the enemies of God and Prophets who invented lies and fabricated stories which were very systematically spread later among the people who had never met and saw Prophet ﷺ.

Hypocrites were unable to comprehend that their Pagan Gods theology could be defeated so easily. Some Jews were unhappy because the last prophet as prophecised in their Scriptures didn't come from Banu Israel but came from Banu Ishmael. Out of haughtiness and ignorance, they rejected the last Prophet.

Quran 5:41 — “O Messenger! Let not grieve you those who hasten into disbelief of those who say, “We believe” with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. They are listeners of falsehood and listeners for other people who have not come to you. They distort the words from their context, saying, “If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware.” And for whom Allah intends a trial never will you have power to do anything for him against Allah. Those are the ones for whom Allah did not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.”

Quran 9:101 — “Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk: they are obstinate in hypocrisy: thou knowest them not: We know them: twice shall We punish them: and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty”.

There were few hypocrites among Sahabas. They used to live, dine, fast and pray Salaat with the Prophet (ﷺ) but at the back side used to make fun of and distort Prophet's teachings.

Hudaifah ibn al-Yaman was diclosed the names of hypocrites among Sahabas.

“The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) at his return from Tabook disclosed him the names of the munafiqyn (hypocrites), ... and 'Umar (ra) conjured him saying: "By Allah am I among them?"
He answered: "By Allah no, and I won't reveal it to anyone after you"

Read here for more.
https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/44942/names-of-the-munafiqin-hadith-authenticity

Hypocrites were also there during Tabeen era (after death of all Sahabas) and Taba tabaeen era and later also during compilation of hadees.

Hence, some fake teachings were recorded in Sahih book which leads to contraction in theology.

Now question arises, why Sahabas did not leave Prophet's (ﷺ) teaching in a book like later written confusing ‘Sahih Bukhari’.

Because, Quran has almost every message required to live as devout muslim. Importance to noble Quran was given.

Lastly, “Life is a test”. If your soul is devout, noble and true, you will make correct interpretation of Quran.

If Hadees was also written down or everything correctly coded (what to do and what not do in life), then life would NOT have been a test to find the correct path.

Evil Muslims (like terrorist killing innocents, rapist, etc) who missed the correct path out of ignorance, greed, lust, idiocy etc first will go to Hell. They will pay for their corrupt and evil misdeed. Once punishment are over, then if repentance are accepted by Allah, then will land in Heaven.

And Allah knows the best.

Japie said...

Saad, the problem is that when show you from the quran how violent and immoral it is, you say I misinterpret it and you show me hadeeth and other sources to correct me. When I show you that the hadeeth support my interpretation, you say these are corruptions and indeed you argue that they all contradict one another.
Now you say we should look at the quran alone. So we start from square 1 again and I can point to you evil teachings there. But then you are going to tell me I misinterpret this and then correct me from the hadeeth etc... That's just going around in circles and it shows you are applying double standards. The hadeeth and sira are currupt and contradictory, and only you can decide and cherry pick which ones are authentic. Do you not realise how unconvincing this is?

Besides, none of this answers the problem of how Muslims are going to obey Mohammed which is commanded by the quran. Without the hadeeth and sira you cannot know anything about Muhammad's command and cannot have any faith as per the Quranic verse above.

You're shooting yourself in the foot and you're making it worse.

Saad said...

Saad, the problem is that when show you from the quran how violent and immoral it is, you say I misinterpret it and you show me hadeeth and other sources to correct me??

You dont need hadees to answer Quran. Other verse of Quran will answer the misinterpretation.

Violent?? Quran states killing one innocent is killing whole humanity. This verse answer any verse misinterpreted as Quran as being violent. It may justify killing in war or self defence.

1) KILLING & SAVING LIVES:“..Take not life, which GOD hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does GOD command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (al-An’am 6:151)

2) "If anyone saved a life,it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people" (Quran 5:32)

3) "Do not take a life except for just cause" (6:151; 17:33 2:84; 4:24);

4) “Stand for Justice even if it against a close relative
(Quran 4:135; 5:8; 16:90; 42:15)

5) “Establishment of justice among people" (Quran 57:25)

6) “Do not Commit Fraud, Bribery or be Dishonest”
(Quran 83:1; 2.188 8:27; 17:26; 83: 2-5)

7) Fulfill your agreements Quran 17:35

8) Do not strut (show off) though the Earth acting like you are so great
(Quran 6:151; 17:37)

9) Be humble Quran (31:18-19)
“And turn not your face away from people (with pride), nor walk in insolence through the earth. Verily, God likes not each arrogant boaster. And be moderate (or show no insolence) in your walking, and lower your voice. Verily, the harshest of all voices is the voice (braying) of the ass.”

10) Sound heart will prevail not Wealth or sons.
“The Day whereon neither wealth nor sons will avail, but only he (will prosper) that brings to God a sound heart.”
(Quran: 26:88-89)

11) God loves piety and humility.
“Indeed, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious.” (Quran 49:13)

12) “God loves doer of good deeds”
“And march forth toward forgiveness from your Lord, and for Paradise as wide as are the heavens and the earth, prepared for the pious. Those who spend (in the way of God) in prosperity and in adversity, who repress anger, and who pardon people; verily, God loves the doers of the good deeds.”
(Quran 3:133)

13) Dont trangress and you are enjoined to do goodness and forbid wrong.

“You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in God; and if the followers of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them (some) are believers and most of them are transgressors.”
(Quran: 3:110)

14) Conduct of muslim commanded by God.
My Sustainer has given me nine commands: to remain conscious of God, whether in private or in public; to speak justly, whether angry or pleased; to show moderation both when poor and when rich, to reunite friendship with those who have broken off with me; to give to him who refuses me; that my silence should be occupied with thought; that my looking should be an admonition; and that I should command what is right.”

Now 15) How can just pick verse like 8:12 (strike over their necks) as general commandment after reading above verses.

It is clearly description of war field where enemy were trying the same thing.

Quran answers Quran verse.
For more detailed answer, yes you need hadees, but Hadees summary cannot be in contradiction with a single verse of any part of Quran.

Saad said...

Besides, none of this answers the problem of how Muslims are going to obey Mohammed which is commanded by the quran. Without the hadeeth and sira you cannot know anything about Muhammad's command and cannot have any faith as per the Quranic verse above.
-------------------------------

I have provided many Quranic verses above which our Prophet's ﷺ followed in his lifetime and we are expected to follow the same. Quran verses was revealed to Prophet Mohammad (ﷺ) and from him it came to the followers. Hence, when you are following above verses of Quran, you are following Prophet Mohammad (ﷺ).

One more example to follow Prophet's:

If you don't deceive (Taqiya) or lie, you are following Prophets Mohammad (ﷺ) actions.

1) "And, do not cloak (and confuse) the truth with falsehood. Do not suppress the truth knowingly.
(Quran, 2:42)"

2) "If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of God on those who lie!"
(Quran, 3:61)"

3) And the Unbelievers say to those who believe: "Follow our path, and we will bear (the consequences) of your faults." Never in the least will they bear their faults: in fact they are liars!
(Quran, 29:12)"

4) "Is it not to God that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than God (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to God." Truly God will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But God guides not such as are false and ungrateful.
(Quran, 39:3)"

5) "Ah! they will know on the morrow, which is the liar, the insolent one!
(Quran, 54:26)"

None of prophets from first Adam (peace be upon him) to the last Prophet Mohammad (ﷺ) ever lied on a single aspect or case in their whole lifespan. Decree of Prophethood would have been snatched by God from them, if anyone of them would have ever lied.

Prophets were best of men ever to come on earth. They were tested in adversities simply to check, if they tried to lie or deceive to save themselves from that trouble. But, they never did and kept their faith in God.

Now, followers are not like any Prophets.
Hence, the least of the liar among followers is the most pious.

A person who lived for 100 years but lied rarely in his/her lifetime from being teenager (when reached sense to understand truth/faleshood) till old age.

So, you don't need Hadees to follow Prophet's (ﷺ). Hadees make it easier. But, if they are in contradiction with Quran or each other or not clear, you don't need to follow it.

You can follow below Hadees becoz it does not contradict Quran principle of upholding truth and not to lie or deceive.

a) Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three: Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie; and whenever he promises, he breaks his promise; and whenever he is entrusted, he betrays (proves to be dishonest)".
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 117)"

b) Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three: (1) whenever he speaks, he tells a lie, (2) whenever he is entrusted, he proves to be dishonest, (3) whenever he promises, he breaks his promise.
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 847)"

c) Ibn Mas'ud (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "Truth leads to piety and piety leads to Jannah. A man persists in speaking the truth till he is recorded with Allah as a truthful man. Falsehood leads to transgression and transgression leads to the Hell-fire. A man continues to speak falsehood till he is recorded with Allah as a great liar."
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

d) "Whoever bears arms against us is not one of us, and whoever cheats is not one of us (not my follower)."

Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2/108 (Kitab al-iman)

Saad said...

You have tried in every possible way to put down Islam (from Scriptures to history to Intellectual reasoning to Arabic grammar etc). You have failed badly.

You are desperate now. Unable to look beyond your hatred.

Scriptures or laws has never let Islam down. But, some evil muslims with their actions or deeds for people like you to trangress.

It is message for you before death. Think about your childrens because they may follow you to Hell.


Quran 7:146: “I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.”


Quran 17:82] We send down in the Quran healing and mercy for the believers. At the same time, it only increases the wickedness of the transgressors.

[Quran 2:26] God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from the tiny mosquito and greater. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did God mean by such an allegory?" He misleads many thereby, and guides many thereby. But He never misleads thereby except the wicked,”

So, dont try to be a wicked transgressor which you have become out of frustation to put down Islam.