Monday, September 30, 2013

Who is Jesus? A Public Form.

Speakers: Abdullah Kunde & Samuel Green.

Thanks Abdullah. It was a great time as usual. Here are my post event comments:

1. This was a forum not a debate. We were to present our own position on Jesus. Abdullah did mention Christianity in his presentation but this was not his fault as he was not briefed properly.

2. This is the reference to Ibn Taymiyyah and the Satanic Verses that I had in mind:

Ibn Taymiyyah, against the majoritarian opinion of the scholars of his day, accepted the historicity of the Satanic verses as something wholly consonant with Muhammad's status and mission as the Messenger of God. He asserted that belief in the incident was the position of the early Muslims, the salaf, and thus the original and authentic truth. (Shahab Ahmed, "Ibn Taymiyyah and the Satanic Verses", Studia Islamica, no. 87, 1998, p. 122)

The Satanic verses incident is narrated in numerous reports (between 18 and 25, depending on how one reckons an independent riwayah) scattered in the sirah nabawiyyah and tafsir literature originating in the first two centuries of Islam. The indications are that the incident formed a fairly standard element in the historical memory of the early Muslim community regarding the life of its founder. (Shahab Ahmed, p. 70)

3. It was suggested that the different Gospel accounts have an inconsistent picture of Jesus. Here is a survey:

Jesus was crucified, died & raised: Matthew 16:17-19, 17:22-23, 20:17-19, 27:45-28:10; Mark 8:31, 10:32-34, 15:1-16:8; Luke 9:20-22, 18:31-34, 23:44-24:12; John 3:14, 12:24, 19:17-20:23.

Jesus is the Son of God: Matthew, 3:17, 4:3-6, 8:29, 11:27, 14:33, 16:16, 17:5, 21:37ff, 22:2ff, 24:36, 26:63-64, 27:40, 43, 54, 28:19; Mark 1:11, 3:11, 5:7, 9:7, 12:6, 13:32, 14:60-62, 15:39; Luke 1:32, 35, 3:22, 4:3-9, 41, 8:28, 9:35, 20:13, 22:66-71; John 1:34, 49, 3:16-18, 35-36, 5:16-30, 6:40, 8:35-36, 10:36, 11:4, 27, 13:32, 14:13, 17:1, 19:7, 20:21.

Jesus is the Son of Man: Matthew 8:20, 9:6, 10:23, 11:19, 12:8, 32, 40, 13:37, 41, 16:13, 27, 28, 17:9, 12, 14, 22, 19:22, 20:18, 28, 24:27, 30, 37, 39, 44, 25:31, 26:2, 24, 45, 64; Mark 2:10, 28, 8:31, 38, 9:9, 12, 31, 10:33, 45, 13:26, 14:21, 41, 62; Luke 5:24, 6:5, 22, 7:34, 9:22, 26, 44, 58, 11:30, 12:8-10, 40, 17:22-30, 18:8, 31, 19:10, 21:27, 36, 22:22, 48, 69, 24:7; John 1:51, 3:13, 3:14, 5:16-30, 6:27, 53, 62, 8:28, 9:35, 12:23, 34, 13:31.

Jesus was a sacrifice for sin: Matthew 20:26-28, 26:26-28, 27:51; Mark 10:45, 14:22-24, 15:38; Luke 22:17-20; 23:45, John 1:34, 3:36.

4. Regarding the location of the Gadarenes it is helpful to see that it was the region not a town:
When he (Jesus) arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes. (Matthew 8:28)
5. For Muslims venerating the prophets, search "Tawassul & Istighatha".


rs roudh said...

Kunde believes that the Jesus of the Quran is more historical than the Jesus of the Gospels. Yet many non-Christian scholars including Bart Ehrman, a scholar often quoted by Muslims themselves, consider the Gospels to be the most valuable source of information available concerning the historical Jesus.

And can Muslims name a single reputable non-Muslim New Testament scholar or historian who believes that the the Quran is of any value whatsoever concerning the historical Jesus.

Mike Robinson said...

I trust the Gospels—first century Jewish-Christian documents over 6th & 7th century Arabic ideas. Paul was a Jewish contemporary of Jesus; he spoke the same language, walked the same streets, and was immersed in the same traditions and culture as Christ. It only seems to make sense to trust one submerged in the customs and language of Jesus over an outsider 500+ years removed from the ethos and culture of Jesus. Paul's association to Christianity can be traced back to a few years after Christ’s crucifixion. In Paul’s writings (47-60 A.D.) we find him affirming that Christ is God. I will reject an outsider’s opinion and take the opinion of Jewish man who visited the same Temple, had the same dust on his feet, and drank from the same streams as Jesus. I will trust Paul and not Mo. I will trust the Gospels and not the Qur’an. I trust God’s word and not the critics seeking to achieve power with impudent and unfounded claims about Jesus of Nazareth.

rs roudh said...

The name of god in the Bible and the Quran.

Abdullah Kunde said that in the Hebrew tradition God has a particular name i.e. YHWH, but there are also multiple other names for God in the Hebrew Scriptures and some of them correlate to names in the Quran.

However, it is only with regards to the name YHWH that the god of the Torah says “THIS is my name forever and every generation”. He never says this about any other name. And why would the god of the Torah give YHWH as his ETERNAL name if in fact he wanted to be known eternally by 99 Arabic names?

If the god of the Torah is Allah and he revealed names for deity in the Hebrew Scriptures which can also be found in the Quran why did he not then also reveal to the Israelites his “greatest” name Allah? And he If did as some Muslims claim then why did the Israelites only recognise YHWH as the proper name of god? Also if Allah revealed his “greatest” name to the Israelites then why is YHWH so paramount in their religion and Allah either non-existent or insignificant?

Again it was only with regard to the name YHWH (not Rahman or Rahim or any other name) that the Third Commandment warns “You shall not misuse the name of YHWH your God, for YHWH will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name” (Ex 20:7). The Torah does not issue this warning against the misuse of any other name including Allah.

The Torah never says “Call him YHWH or call him Rahman” because whereas Rahman is a proper name like Allah in the Quran, neither Rahman nor any other name is considered to be a proper name like YHWH in the Torah, If both books are inspired by the same deity then why does one consider Rahman to be a proper name for god and the other not?

Whilst Allah is only ONE of the 99 proper names of god in the Quran, YHWH is the ONLY proper name of god in the Torah. Allah and YHWH also have very different meanings.

The Quran gives 99 proper names for deity none of which are recognised by the Torah, whilst the only proper name for god in the Torah is not recognised by the Quran. So neither book recognises the proper name(s) for deity given by the other book.

Two books ‘revealed’ by the same deity cannot be contradictory to the point of being opposites.