Sunday, September 15, 2013

Shadid Lewis vs. Anthony Rogers: Is the Trinity Polytheistic?

Here is my debate with Shadid Lewis on whether or not the Trinity is a form of non-unitarian monotheism or if it is a version of rank polytheism.



For those interested in reading further on the major argument I used in the debate, see the following series of articles I wrote on Genesis 19:24:

The "Heavenly" and "Earthly" Yahweh - Part 1, 2, 3a, 3b, 4.

15 comments:

Daniel Ndlovu said...

Wow Anthony Rogers that was clear, concise. One of the best defences to the trinity I've heard. That was a good presentation. Jesus is lord!!

Radical Moderate said...

Abraham did not try to kill me. WOW

Radical Moderate said...

Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day on my day and he was glad. Again WOW

Radical Moderate said...

A few Funny Shadid Quotes.

"Ask any Jew Is the MEMRA the trinity?"

"And at most the Memra is speaking of two persons"

"Did Mosses ever believe that Jesus is God? Did Mosses ever mention Jesus?"

Yah Shadid paid attention.







Radical Moderate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Toll said...

It was worth it alone for the interpretation of Jesus saying Abraham rejoiced to see my day, he saw it and was glad. I never saw what Jesus meant by that before. Great.

Devotee of Christ said...

Dear David,

When are you posting the video of your debate? Can't wait

sla said...

Anthony ,in between the debate u were having the Quran in your hand while u were discussing , then u kept it on the table as a mark of respect , thank u for it .

Next , coming to the debate itself , u claimed that Moses and Jesus taught the Trinity , well , that is a very highly misinformed and apologetic claim .An overwhelming majority of Scholars will say there is absolutely no Trinity in the Old Testament and no prophet had taught it , including Jesus .Plus , u have not addressed the logical problems which are so central to the claim of Trinity being a monotheistic faith , which Shadid too raised .

Anthony Rogers said...

Sla said: "... u claimed that Moses and Jesus taught the Trinity , well , that is a very highly misinformed and apologetic claim ."

Correction: I provided a sustained, contextual exegesis of two major sections of the Torah and the Gospel arguing for the fact that Moses and Jesus taught the Trinity. And just like Shadid never addressed my argument that more than one person is identified by Moses as Yahweh or my argument that Jesus identifies Himself as the one who appeared as Yahweh to Abraham, neither have you. And so your unargued claim to the contrary ends up being what you call "a very highly misinformed and apologetic claim."

Sla said: "An overwhelming majority of scholars will say there is no Trinity in the Old Testament and no prophet had taught it , including Jesus ."

If the evidence I have provided is sound (and let's not forget that it hasn't been refuted or even so much as addressed), then it doesn't matter how many scholars you think would disagree with me on whether or not the Trinity can be found in the Old Testament. In this regard they are in the same boat as you are. If they do not grapple with the evidence, then they are left making unargued and baseless claims.

In any case, I don't agree with you that OT scholars who are knowledgeable of the ANE, or those who are familiar with Judaism during the 2nd temple period, do not hold that the OT and ancient Jews believed that God is multi-personal. I gave some of the evidence for that in my debate with Shadid. More can be found in the articles I linked underneath the video.

Sla said: "Plus , u have not addressed the logical problems which are so central to the claim of Trinity being a monotheistic faith , which Shadid too raised ."

The only valid logical problem presented in the debate is the one I presented to Shadid: Since we both affirm that Moses and Jesus are monotheists, then the fact that they both taught that a second person is fully divine conclusively demonstrates that Trinitarianism is a form of monotheism.

Joanna Maria said...

Where in Bible, is "Trinity"?

http://www.brainout.net/TrinityCites.htm

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Anthony,

You should write a book man.

I love the many appearances of the preincarnate Christ they are all over the place in the OT, however for some reason I had missed Genesis 18 and it's connection to John 8 until now I can't believe my carelessness.

WOW

It would be cool to have all this stuff presented systematically in book format.

I really do appreciate your articles but some things just require the weight of a book.

peace

rowland said...

Yes Brother Anthony. You really need to write a book to put this wonderful revelation to the public. Not only for the muslims, but also for the unitarians like the Jehova's Witness out there. thank you and God Bless.

Zack_Tiang said...

Good job, bro Anthony.

For a good presentation of the Jewish Trinity, you should really take a look at this teaching series by Michael Heiser.
Really good, informative and substantial presentation of the Trinity from the Jewish/Old Testament standpoint.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geaydst6d-A

Gov Lee said...

God's grace is upon you bro. Anthony. You really did justice to the subject matter. Your opponent dwelt on the same pointless facts all through.I've been trying to have u as a friend on fb.You are highly favoured.

rs roudh said...

Response to the Trinity debate.

Is there any evidence in the New Testament that the Jews were aware that the Christian Jews had a very different concept of god i.e. a triune god which included Jesus a contemporary human being? Is there any record in the New Testament that these Jews took exception to or debated this “blasphemous” concept of god with the Christian Jews? Is there any record in the New Testament of Jewish hostility towards the Jewish Christians on account of the latter holding THIS concept of God? Is it credible that the Jews knew that the Jewish Christians had a very different and to them a very offensive concept of god and yet took absolutely no notice?


Is it credible that the Jews knew that the Jewish Christians believed in a triune god which included a contemporary human being and still allowed them to enter the Temple? Is it credible that the Jews allowed Paul to REPEATEDLY preach this “heretical” concept of god in their synagogues? The Jews charged Paul on many counts but is there any evidence that they ever charged him with THIS count which would have been undoubtedly the most serious of all charges?

There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. “We find nothing wrong with this man,” they said. “What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?” (Acts 23:9)

Is it credible that these Pharisees, teachers of the law were so na├»ve and ignorant so as not to know that what Paul and his fellow Christians were actually preaching was an “utter blasphemy” i.e. that one of their contemporary human beings was divine! Is it at all possible that such a teaching could have remained completely hidden from them? And if the Pharisees did know this then is it concievable that they could have said about Paul in the Sanhedrin "We find nothing wrong with this man" and “What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?”

If Paul and his fellow Christians really had been preaching this “blasphemy” it is not then credible that the Pharisees (and the Saducees) would have remained unaware of it. And if the Pharisees HAD known about this “blasphemy” then Paul’s siding with them on the issue of the resurrection would not have done him any favour. Both the Pharisees and Saducees together then would have stoned him to death.

In view of this it is difficult to believe that Paul and the early Christians went around preaching the Trinity