Australia—Four men who took part in the whipping of a Muslim convert to punish him for drinking alcohol and taking drugs have been found guilty of assault.
The Sydney case is believed to be the first in an Australian court relating to such punishment being meted out under the pretext of sharia, or Islamic law.
Christian Martinez, 32, was whipped with an electric cord at his home in Silverwater in Sydney's west between July 16 and 17 in 2011.
His religious mentor, Wasim Fayed, was accused of carrying out the whipping as punishment under sharia, while the other three men held Mr Martinez down on his bed.
Fayed, 44, along with Zakaryah Raad, 21, Tolga Cifki, 21, and Gengiz Coskin, 22, pleaded not guilty to charges of assault occasioning bodily harm in company and stealing.
Raad also faced two charges of intimidation.
In Burwood Local Court today, Magistrate Brian Maloney found the offences proved.
He noted that the prosecution had stated it was not a case about the Islamic faith but of the imposing of the offenders' views of sharia.
Fayed was the dominant player, having taken on the role of guiding Mr Martinez in his new faith.
In July 2011, Mr Martinez had asked Fayed for help in getting off illicit drugs he was taking.
Fayed had replied, ''I'm going to tie you up, OK, and that's what you need, brother."
Fayed and the other offenders went round to Mr Martinez's home and Fayed lashed him on the back 40 times as the others held him down.
Mr Martinez pleaded with Fayed for him to stop but Fayed replied he was doing it because he loved him and next time he thought about drinking he would remember the pain.
Part way through the lashing Mr Martinez said he wanted to vomit and he was allowed to go to the toilet and throw up before he was held and whipped again.
The offenders then left the premises and Mr Martinez discovered a hard drive used to store CCTV footage in his home had been taken, for which the four men were charged with stealing. (Continue Reading)
Thursday, February 28, 2013
Four Muslims Found Guilty of Whipping Muslim Convert in Australia
According to the magistrate, "it was not a case about the Islamic faith but of the imposing of the offenders' views of sharia." Once again, Western leaders maintain that Sharia (the collection of laws laid down in the Qur'an and Hadith) has nothing to do with Islam.
116 comments:
The offenders then left the premises and Mr Martinez discovered a hard drive used to store CCTV footage in his home had been taken, for which the four men were charged with stealing.
Heh. Stealing, huh? Let's be consistent now, Fayed...
What's the sharia punishment for stealing again?
Sharia violates criminal law.
Sharia is criminal.
Bangladesh war crimes trial: Delwar Hossain Sayeedi to die
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21611769
A taste of his own Islamic medicine!!!
3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 (2 Timothy 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eunG8J3usZQ
C'mon guys according to both of our religions the Hour is near. Look around you and see that almost everything Paul said has filled the world. Most of humanity seems to be on a collision course with hell. Why do you waste all of your energy on Islam, and you do not devote most of your time to fighting the immorality around you? There are so very few people left who love God more than they love money. And from what I read, the Bible despises that. Even Jesus told you to keep the commandments.
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19)
If you want eternal life, KEEP the commandments. Perhaps then if you don't keep the commandments, you do not get eternal life?
It is quite typical of the Islamists to implement sharia laws to others but never to him/herself. They whipped a man for drinking, but they didn't amputate their own hands for stealing.
I would bet that they have stolen many times before, and the sharia punishment for stealing is limb amputation. So how come they still have their hands if they are so pious and religious?
Jamal,
You said,
C'mon guys according to both of our religions the Hour is near. Look around you and see that almost everything Paul said has filled the world.
The world was filled with all of this in Paul's day as well. That proves nothing whatsoever. Not all Christians are premillinnialist dispensationalists.
You said,
If you want eternal life, KEEP the commandments.
This is absolute heresy. Repent. Have you read any of the New Testament in context? You're prooftexting and distorting in your use of Matt. 19:17, and you know it.
You said,
Perhaps then if you don't keep the commandments, you do not get eternal life?
No. Keeping the commandments is evidence that one is converted and has eternal life. Read 1 John. You have it completely backwards. Completely.
You asked:
and you do not devote most of your time to fighting the immorality around you?
Define "immorality" please.
Islam denies the deity of Christ. It doesn't get much more immoral than that.
Justin
@Jamal Hassan,
1. C'mon guys according to both of our religions the Hour is near.
Mind showing us q quranic verse that indicate your claim?
2. If you want eternal life, KEEP the commandments. Perhaps then if you don't keep the commandments, you do not get eternal life?
You realize that Jesus talked to a Jew who WERE UNDER THE LAW here right?
NO ONE can keep the whole law, that's why Jesus paid the price for all.
For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in ONE POINT, he has become GUILTY OF ALL. James 2.10
Jesus is the only way for you to get eternal life, not keeping the law because you can't keep them all.
...I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for UNLESS you believe that I am† he, you will die in your sins. John 8.24
@Jamal - the differences are these http://al-mahdi.atspace.com/isa.html
Incidentally, not judging others is a big part of Christianity and unlike muslims our God does not require us to murder anyone or follow some barbaric rules for life.
@Justin
Repent for heresy? I’m a Muslim first of all. Secondly, what context? There is a random man coming to Jesus and asking him what is the way to Heaven. Jesus replies and tells him to keep the commandments. Can it be any clearer? And I don’t care what John said I’m talking about the supposed words of Jesus.
@Nothin but the truth
Closer and closer to mankind comes their Reckoning: yet they heed not and they turn away. (21:1)
And watch this it’s only 2 minutes long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eunG8J3usZQ
“You realize that Jesus talked to a Jew who WERE UNDER THE LAW here right?”
Where does it say he is talking to a Jew? Assuming he is, why didn’t Jesus tell him to stop following the Law? Also, the law-abolisher, Paul, wasn’t he also a Jew?
@Koala Bear
That link is ridiculous. I don’t even know where to start. Let me ask you this first, are you implying that Mahdi is the antichrist or the Islamic Jesus?
Regarding barbaric rules, your version of god commanded these rules too once upon a time. Apparently he then changed his mind, despite evidence to the contrary such as Matthew 19 which I quoted.
"I love him for the sake of Allah"
Some love
This was just a case of some criminals taking the law (an interpretation of shariah) into there own hands, so the judge seems to imply. Little does he know,unless he is lying, that that is exactly what the Islamic scriptures and traditions dictate"
SO @ Jamal Hassan.
From a secular viewpoint how about you just call it how it is,and say that this religion causes some people to act anti socially or criminally.
And this is only regarding a "relatively" benign transgression of decency.
lol@jamal
So what race would a random person likely be, at the time, and whom would want to ask Jesus such questions?
Where is Derrick making excuses for his Ummah?
Jamal,
Jesus also told him to "follow me". Did you see that part?
if you want eternal, you must follow Jesus.
Are you?
Caricature said...
"Jamal,
Jesus also told him to "follow me". Did you see that part?
if you want eternal, you must follow Jesus.
Are you?"
Of course he isn't since his Qu'ran doesn't give him any teachings of Jesus that he can follow, unless you count the polemic that all prophets of past were Muslims and taught that Allah is one and to submit to that one true god. That is about as vague as one can get.
Jamal-If you read the whole verse, Jesus say's that perfection doesn’t come by observing the Law but by following him.
You are only Saved by your faith in Jesus! "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.’ Then they asked him, ‘What must we do to do the works God requires?’ Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.’" John 6:27-29
S_T,
It's also interesting that Jamal would even qoute the bible since he believes that it's corrupt.
@ Jamal,
Closer and closer to mankind comes their Reckoning: yet they heed not and they turn away. (21:1)
Uhmmm where does it talk about the SIGN of the end again?
“You realize that Jesus talked to a Jew who WERE UNDER THE LAW here right?”
Where does it say he is talking to a Jew?
The laws WERE ONLY given to the Jews (John 1:17).
THIS IS A PROOF THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT THE BIBLE.
Assuming he is, why didn’t Jesus tell him to stop following the Law?
I think I quoted you this already but again, as typical muslim, you left it out. Read my previous post on John 8:24.
Also, the law-abolisher, Paul, wasn’t he also a Jew?
The law abolisher, Paul? lol
Do you even know the story of Paul?
Paul used to persecute Christians who say the laws have been abolished UNTIL Jesus appeared to him (Acts 9:1-9)
@Jamal Hassan,
Did you even read the whole story of that young rule and Jesus?
When Jesus told him to sell all that he has and FOLLOW Him, he was angry and left.
REMEMBER, the young ruler said HE HAS KEPT ALL THE LAW. (Matthew 19:20)
So why didn't Jesus say, ok then, you will have eternal life?
What did Jesus said next?
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall HARDLY ENTER into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:23)
You read this right?
@Nothin but the truth
If you want a clear signs about the Hour you will not find them in the Quran explicitly. You will find them in the hadith. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eunG8J3usZQ
"The laws WERE ONLY given to the Jews (John 1:17)."
So god left the other nations lawless? Interesting. Anyhow, I will concede and accept that it was a Jew. Yet you still cannot seem to answer the question. You don't know the answer so you are throwing different things at me. I'm talking about this one instance where Jesus is asked how can one get to Heaven. Jesus then COMMANDS this person that the way to get into Heaven is to keep the commandments. Then the man said that he has kept all the commandments and he asked what is he still lacking. Jesus replied and said IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT (which by the way makes no sense because according to you everybody is a sinner and cannot be perfect, despite the Old Testament saying that Noah was perfect), then sell your possessions, THEN follow me. Before telling him to follow him, Jesus first told him to keep the commandments and sell his possessions. Follow me is the last command. And what does follow me mean? Does it mean ditch the commandments and that salvation is only faith-based? If that is the case, then this whole passage is self-contradictory because first Jesus is telling him to follow the Law and then Jesus is saying forget the Law. This is assuming that "follow me" means ditch the Law, which I do not think it does. Follow Jesus, meaning follow his commands i.e keep the commandments, not allowed to divorce unless for adultery, etc.
"When Jesus told him to sell all that he has and FOLLOW Him, he was angry and left."
No he wasn't angry he was sad because he had a lot of wealth and had to give it away per Jesus' command. Who are you trying to fool?
"So why didn't Jesus say, ok then, you will have eternal life?
What did Jesus said next?
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall HARDLY ENTER into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:23)"
This is pathetic. Jesus didn't say something next. The man wanted to be perfect, and then Jesus told him what to do to be perfect. You don't have to be perfect to enter Heaven.
"Paul used to persecute Christians who say the laws have been abolished UNTIL Jesus appeared to him (Acts 9:1-9)"
So Jesus told one Jew (the man) to keep the law and another Jew (Paul) to abolish it?
Why is the supposed god on earth, who came to earth to do away with the Law, telling a man to keep the commandments?
@ Jamal,
So god left the other nations lawless? Interesting.
Well, that what the Bible says. Go read the entire OT and tell me where does it say the law was for the whole world.
Amos 3:2 “I have chosen YOU ALONE from ALL the clans OF THE EARTH. Therefore I will punish you for all your sins.
Better yet:
ARE YOU TELLING ME, when the Quran says FIGHT THOSE WHO BELIEVE NOT IN ALLAH... (9:29)...Pray toward Mecca...Pray 5 times a day and so on...
Are those commands for everyone in the world, or ONLY to MUSLIMS?
Let's be consistent!
-----------------------------------
"When Jesus told him to sell all that he has and FOLLOW Him, he was angry and left."
No he wasn't angry he was sad because he had a lot of wealth and had to give it away per Jesus' command. Who are you trying to fool?
hahahaha so you telling me, to be sad mean to be happy? lol...joke of the day!
--------------------------
Then the man said that he has kept all the commandments and he asked what is he still lacking. Jesus replied and said IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT (which by the way makes no sense because according to you everybody is a sinner and cannot be perfect, despite the Old Testament saying that Noah was perfect), then sell your possessions, THEN follow me. Before telling him to follow him, Jesus first told him to keep the commandments and sell his possessions. Follow me is the last command.
1. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE DID JESUS SAY: IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT follow me?
2. Where does the Bible say NOAH WAS PERFECT?
3. If following Jesus is the last command, THEN WHY DO WE NEED MUHAMMAD?
Answer those questions please.
----------------------------------
This is pathetic. Jesus didn't say something next. The man wanted to be perfect, and then Jesus told him what to do to be perfect. You don't have to be perfect to enter Heaven.
---Show me where does it say, THE MAN WANTED TO BE PERFECT?
You don't have to be perfect to enter heaven?
1.lol that's why your heaven is not mine.
2. Then why on earth the man wanted to be perfect (according to you) then?
What is the purpose of him wanting to be perfect if entering heaven does not require perfection; BECAUSE HIS QUESTION WAS: What must i do TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?
This is ridiculous!
--------------------------------
So Jesus told one Jew (the man) to keep the law and another Jew (Paul) to abolish it?
Why is the supposed god on earth, who came to earth to do away with the Law, telling a man to keep the commandments?
You really need some biblical teachings:
Do you know what testament is?
It's a will. For the NT to have an effect THE TESTATOR (Jesus) must first DIE. A testament does not have any power except the testator dies.
Without Jesus' death there wouldn't have been a NT.
My point is:
Jesus, when speaking with the young ruler WAS NOT yet crucified, meaning they were still under the OT; under the Law.
He appeared to Paul, AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, which mean the NT has been already introduced. That's the difference!
Remember what Jesus said, He came TO FULFILL THE LAW (Matthew 5:17), and when on the Cross He cried out and said: "..IT IS FINISHED" (John 19:30).
What is finished? His mission to fulfill the Law, and to bring a new covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31 “Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make A NEW COVENANT WITH THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL and Judah.
You see that?
A new covenant WITH the people of Israel and Judah. Meaning the old covenant was ONLY WITH THEM.
But Jesus said:
10:16 I have OTHER SHEEP that do not come from this sheepfold (Israel). I must bring them too, and they will listen to my voice, so that there will be one flock and one shepherd.
It's ANYONE who would believe in and follow Him.
John 3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him will not perish but HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
To follow Jesus means, to follow His teachings, that He came to save the world through His sacrificial death (Mark 10:45; John 8:24; 12:47 etc)
@ Jamal,
I forgot. Concerning the sings of the end, you gave me a video link. Do you mind giving me the hadith references rather, since you watched the video I assume?
And why didn't you answer my objection about the quranic verse you gave me?
@Nothin But the truth
“ARE YOU TELLING ME, when the Quran says FIGHT THOSE WHO BELIEVE NOT IN ALLAH... (9:29)...Pray toward Mecca...Pray 5 times a day and so on... Are those commands for everyone in the world, or ONLY to MUSLIMS? Let's be consistent!”
I’m not going to be dragged into a conversation about 9:29. But nice try. We are discussing Christianity at the moment. We Muslims believe that prophets were sent to every nation with guidance from the Lord. Though we do agree that the Israelites were specially chosen: “O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.” (2:122)
“hahahaha so you telling me, to be sad mean to be happy? lol...joke of the day!”
Where did you get happy from? You said the man was angry. I said he was not angry he was sad. There’s a difference.
“1. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE DID JESUS SAY: IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT follow me?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)
“2. Where does the Bible say NOAH WAS PERFECT?”
“This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.” (Genesis 6:9 NIV 1984)
“These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.” (Genesis 6:9 KJV 2000)
“3. 3. If following Jesus is the last command, THEN WHY DO WE NEED MUHAMMAD?”
This is a red herring. I meant that this is Jesus’ last command to this specific person according to your gospel. The Prophethood of Muhammad is a whole separate discussion.
“Show me where does it say, THE MAN WANTED TO BE PERFECT?”
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” (Matthew 19:20)
”1.lol that's why your heaven is not mine. 2. Then why on earth the man wanted to be perfect (according to you) then?”
Some people want to go the extra mile. The point is, he asked how he could get eternal life. Jesus answered and said keep the commandments. If the man didn’t insist on being perfect, the conversation would have been finished with Jesus telling him to keep the commandments.
“Do you know what testament is? It's a will. For the NT to have an effect THE TESTATOR (Jesus) must first DIE. A testament does not have any power except the testator dies. Without Jesus' death there wouldn't have been a NT. My point is: Jesus, when speaking with the young ruler WAS NOT yet crucified, meaning they were still under the OT; under the Law. He appeared to Paul, AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, which mean the NT has been already introduced. That's the difference! Remember what Jesus said, He came TO FULFILL THE LAW (Matthew 5:17), and when on the Cross He cried out and said: "..IT IS FINISHED" (John 19:30). What is finished? His mission to fulfill the Law, and to bring a new covenant.”
A number of problems, Firstly, did Jesus die for the sins of the people of the OT? Secondly, you are telling me that your entire religion is based on one man’s claim that he saw Jesus and Jesus told him certain things? Thirdly, where does it say that the Law is finished? How do we know Jesus was referring to the Law? Perhaps he meant his life was finished. It’s very vague.
The question is still not answered. Why is Jesus not telling this man to believe in him as the savior once he dies, etc? Why is he telling this man that to get to Heaven, you have to keep the commandments.
Jamal,
you ever been to the heaven?
@ Jamal,
“ARE YOU TELLING ME, when the Quran says FIGHT THOSE WHO BELIEVE NOT IN ALLAH... (9:29)...Pray toward Mecca...Pray 5 times a day and so on... Are those commands for everyone in the world, or ONLY to MUSLIMS? Let's be consistent!”
I’m not going to be dragged into a conversation about 9:29. But nice try. We are discussing Christianity at the moment. We Muslims believe that prophets were sent to every nation with guidance from the Lord. Though we do agree that the Israelites were specially chosen: “O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.” (2:122)
---You don't get my point, do you?
I mentioned it because of your assertion:
"So god left the other nations lawless? Interesting."
Because those commands are to Muslims, NOT TO ALL NATIONS.
So I use your own objection against you. YOU GET IT?
And why are you afraid of defending your quran?
--------------------------
“1. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE DID JESUS SAY: IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT follow me?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)
OK, I have different translation but as I said previously, to follow Jesus is to follow His teachings.
Which means He came to die for our sins. So to be perfect here does not mean we are perfect on what we do, but TRUSTING IN THE PERFECTION OF JESUS:
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE.
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that WE MIGHT BE MADE the righteousness of God IN HIM.
Titus 3:5 NOT by works of righteousness WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Colossians 2:10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM (Christ), which is the head of all principality and power:
Read the other ones I already mentioned previously, that you seem to ignore namely John 3:16, 8:24; Mark 10:45....
------------------------------
“2. Where does the Bible say NOAH WAS PERFECT?”
“This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.” (Genesis 6:9 NIV 1984)
Did you read the previous verse that says:
But Noah FOUND GRACE in the eyes of the LORD. (Gen.6:8)?
This exactly what I just said above. WE ARE CALLED PERFECT BECAUSE OF GOD'S GRACE.
And when you are GRACED, you are BLAMELESS BEFORE GOD.
Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and UNBLAMABLE and unreproveable IN HIS SIGHT:
Without God's grace NO ONE IS PERFECT:
Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is NOT A JUST MAN ON THE EARTH, that DOETH GOOD, and SINNETH NOT.
2 Chronicles 6:36 If they sin against thee, (FOR THERE IS NO MAN WHICH SINNETH NOT,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;
Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
@Jamal,
“Show me where does it say, THE MAN WANTED TO BE PERFECT?”
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” (Matthew 19:20)
Already answered above. Following Jesus (accepting what He did) is the only way for anyone to be perfect. See those references above.
-------------------------------
Some people want to go the extra mile. The point is, he asked how he could get eternal life. Jesus answered and said keep the commandments. If the man didn’t insist on being perfect, the conversation would have been finished with Jesus telling him to keep the commandments.
You did not answer my question:
WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF BEING PERFECT IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
Just to go extra miles? lol
-----------------------------------
A number of problems, Firstly, did Jesus die for the sins of the people of the OT?
YES, He did.
Do you know that they were in Hades until Jesus went to hell to deliver them from there? (Matthew 27:52-53)
---------------------------
Secondly, you are telling me that your entire religion is based on one man’s claim that he saw Jesus and Jesus told him certain things?
hahaha are you serious? What about Muhammad? No one else claimed to the angel who spoke to him. So why do you believe him?
By one man, you mean Paul? NO, All Jesus disciples made the same claim (Read John 21, Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24), also the epistles of Peter, James, John, Jude...)
----------------------------
Thirdly, where does it say that the Law is finished? How do we know Jesus was referring to the Law? Perhaps he meant his life was finished. It’s very vague.
lol
Did you even read my previous post?
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy THE LAW, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, BUT TO FULFILL.
This is why He said IT'S FINISHED, in other word, IT'S FULFILLED, IT'S DONE.
As for how we know He was referring to the Law, if Matt. 5:17 is not enough for you then:
Luke 16:16 THE LAW and the prophets WERE UNTIL JOHN (the baptist): since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
John 1:17 For THE LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:21But now the righteousness of God WITHOUT THE LAW is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference...24 Being JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS:
Ephesians 2:15 Having ABOLISHED in his (Jesus) flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Romans 10:4 For Christ is THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under grace.
@Jamal,
The question is still not answered. Why is Jesus not telling this man to believe in him as the savior once he dies, etc?
Dude, are you serious?
What did he do after Jesus said FOLLOW ME?
HE LEFT!being sad.
If he asked what Jesus meant by following Him, He would have told him.
Jesus explained what it means to follow Him:
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.
To die in your sins mean to pay for your own sins. And as I mentioned above no just man who do good, does not sin.
Let's see what God says about doing good (keeping the law). Does it save you or not?
James 2:10 For whosoever shall KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, and yet OFFEND IN ONE POINT, he is GUILTY OF ALL.
Now, do you know there are 613 laws in the OT? Can you keep them all?
According to James 2:10, if you transgress against 1 of those 613 laws, you are as good as guilty of all 613 laws.
But Jesus alone kept those 613 laws, that's why He is called the only one who never sinned (2Cor.5:21).
That's why He died for our sins. Abolishing those laws and give us grace (John 1:17). That's what it means for Him saving us - He did what we could not. He paid the price for our sins.
--------------------------------
Why is he telling this man that to get to Heaven, you have to keep the commandments.
Indeed, if he could keep all the laws he would go to heaven but HE COULD NOT because when Jesus told him to give away his wealth to the poor, HE WAS SAD.
And the laws in the OT COMMAND THEM to GIVE TO THE POOR (Deuteronomy 15:10) and love your neighbor as you love yourself (Leviticus 19:18).
So he failed at least one of the laws already.
This is why in the same chapter Jesus said, ...Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall HARDLY ENTER into the kingdom of heaven. (19:23)
You see? According to Jesus he won't go to heaven because he broke the commandment that say to give to the poor.
@Nothin but the truth
“I forgot. Concerning the sings of the end, you gave me a video link. Do you mind giving me the hadith references rather, since you watched the video I assume?”
“He (the enquirer) again said: Inform me about the hour (of the Doom). He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: One who is asked knows no more than the one who is inquiring (about it). He (the inquirer) said: Tell me some of its indications. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and master. That you will find barefooted, destitute goat-herds vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings.”
The above hadith is in Sahih Muslim: http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=1&translator=2
There is no person in history who has so accurately prophesied the end times like Prophet Muhammad. But that is a separate discussion which we can have.
“And why didn't you answer my objection about the quranic verse you gave me?”
That was a valid objection. I answered, “If you want clear signs about the Hour you will not find them in the Quran explicitly.”
Jamal,
you say,
Why is Jesus not telling this man to believe in him as the savior once he dies, etc?
I say,
That is exactly what follow me means.
quote:
(Mat 16:24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
end quote;
You say,
Why is he telling this man that to get to Heaven, you have to keep the commandments.
I say,
Because in order to be saved from God's Wrath you must have a perfect righteousness
Quote:
(Mat 5:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
End quote:
One way to get this perfect righteousness is to obey all the commands God gives to you perfectly.
For the rich man this included the commands to sell everything and follow Jesus.
So I ask you Jamaal have you followed all the commands given to you perfectly?
If not you stand condemned as a law breaker. I ask you to let that sink in like the rich man did.
Quote:
(Jas 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
End quote:
The only way for someone who has broken any command given to him to have eternal life is if someone else bears the punishment for his lawbreaking
Quote:
But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(Isa 53:5-6)
End quote:
Now does the fact that another pays the penalty for my failure to keep the commands given to me mean that I should continue to sin of course not
Quote:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
(Rom 6:1-2)
End quote:
Peace
This muslim @jamal clearly shows what it is like to be without the Holy Spirit, That Is why Jesus clearly stated I will send the Holy Spirit, So that His words will continue to be brought to Live by the Holy Spirit.
Looks like muslims watch partial "movies" and come to a conclusion!
That is why they ask questions like, "What context?" Or "So what nationality is that 'actor'?"
This episode is from Matthew 19:16-23
This muslim quotes, ".... People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud,.."
That is precisly what this arrogrant proud boastful man, did in front of God, that he had kept those commandments.. But Jesus did not ask him specifically about the First commandment!
Jesus as God, He knew where this self-rigtheous man's weakness or focus is on.... money!
So when Jesus asked him in verse 21-22, the man walk away sorrowfully, Because money is his god!
This is just one portion of the lessons from this episode, but alas I will not "cast pearls before swines"...
Christ in this episode and throughtout the NT is teaching us, "Look Towards the Cross"!
Therein lies your Salvation!
The Law is there is expose your sins, It is there to show man your utter futility to impress God, You Need HIM.
NO MAN has kept ALL the Laws except one.. JESUS CHRIST!
Is that why muslim terrorist need to kill the infidels becos they believe that is a sure way to their 'paradise'?
Hey, this is their twisted/perverted way of doing the "blood sacrifice" for the atonement of their sins!!
@Jamal,
“I forgot. Concerning the sings of the end, you gave me a video link. Do you mind giving me the hadith references rather, since you watched the video I assume?”
“He (the enquirer) again said: Inform me about the hour (of the Doom). He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: One who is asked knows no more than the one who is inquiring (about it). He (the inquirer) said: Tell me some of its indications. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and master. That you will find barefooted, destitute goat-herds vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings.”
The above hadith is in Sahih Muslim: http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=1&translator=2
There is no person in history who has so accurately prophesied the end times like Prophet Muhammad. But that is a separate discussion which we can have.
Seriously? that's signs of the end?
Please go read Matthew 24
----------------------------------
That was a valid objection. I answered, “If you want clear signs about the Hour you will not find them in the Quran explicitly.”
Why not in the quran? I thought it is allah's words.
You mean Muhammad KNOWS MORE THAN ALLAH?
@Nothin but the truth
"So to be perfect here does not mean we are perfect on what we do, but TRUSTING IN THE PERFECTION OF JESUS:"
And what gives you the right to interpret it that way? That is not what the passage is saying. Jesus clearly said, IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT, then sell your.............and so on. You're just making interpretations that suit you. I'm not interested in other passages. I want to know why is Jesus telling somebody to follow the Law.
"But Noah FOUND GRACE in the eyes of the LORD. (Gen.6:8)?
This exactly what I just said above. WE ARE CALLED PERFECT BECAUSE OF GOD'S GRACE.
And when you are GRACED, you are BLAMELESS BEFORE GOD.
Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and UNBLAMABLE and unreproveable IN HIS SIGHT:"
Wait but I thought Jesus didn't supposedly die yet. god graced Noah before killing himself/his son? How does that work?
"WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF BEING PERFECT IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
Just to go extra miles? lol
-----------------------------------
A number of problems, Firstly, did Jesus die for the sins of the people of the OT?
YES, He did.
Do you know that they were in Hades until Jesus went to hell to deliver them from there? (Matthew 27:52-53)"
Did the people under the OT have to be perfect to attain eternal life? Also, Matthew 27:52-53 does not say anything about Hades. Please provide me with a proper reference.
"hahaha are you serious? What about Muhammad? No one else claimed to the angel who spoke to him. So why do you believe him?
By one man, you mean Paul? NO, All Jesus disciples made the same claim (Read John 21, Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24), also the epistles of Peter, James, John, Jude...)"
We Muslims have the Quran that testifies to the prophethood of Muhammad. Would you like to enter into a discussion about Quranic miracles?
Also, the authors of Mark Matthew Luke and John never claim to be disciples of Jesus. The gospels are written at least 40 years after the supposed crucifixion by anonymous authors. We do not know who they are. Christian scholarship has testified to this.
Why are you quoting the gospel of James? Is it canonical? Can I also quote from it?
"If he asked what Jesus meant by following Him, He would have told him."
What would Jesus have told him? To not follow the Law? So Jesus tells him to follow the law and then seconds later would tell him something different?
@Fifth Monarchy Man
"You say,
Why is he telling this man that to get to Heaven, you have to keep the commandments.
I say,
Because in order to be saved from God's Wrath you must have a perfect righteousness"
Let me get this straight. You are saying that the reason Jesus told this man to keep the commandments is because one must have perfect righteousness to enter Heaven?
"But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(Isa 53:5-6)"
How do we know this referred to Jesus?
@Tom
"So when Jesus asked him in verse 21-22, the man walk away sorrowfully, Because money is his god!"
This is your own interpretation. Jesus told him to keep the commandments. The man asked what more he could do, and Jesus replied to sell everything and follow him. How do you know money was his god? Are you willing to sell everything you have? If not, I guess you are also breaking the first commandment. You guys have all of these interpretations with no basis.
"but alas I will not "cast pearls before swines"
Says the Christian whose supposed god didn't prohibit swine consumption (actually he did and then he changed his mind)
Jokes aside, is referring to people as swine against the Law?
@ Jamal the muslim..
Matthew 10:14 " And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."
This muslim say that is my "interpretation", YES given to me by The Holy Spirit! The Body of Christ have the Holy Spirit in Them to continue to understand the Lessons & Wisdom of the Bible!
This muslim respond to the "casting pearls before swines" clearly shows his puerile mind!
A typical "holy spiritless" driven imbecile argument with the Body of Christ from this muslim challenging me to also give away my riches!
you, muslim is challenging my god.. The devil challenged Jesus Christ and He responded:
Matthew 4:5-7
"5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,and they will lift you up in their hands,so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’
I have accepted The Lord Jesus Christ as My Lord and Saviour.. I do not BOAST in my own ability..I Believe in the Perfect & FINISHED work of My God and Saviour Jesus Christ, I look towards the cross.. its ALL done at the Cross!
In my previous post, I have already indicated Christ is pointing us to look towards the Cross!
Thereof Christ is my moral compass!
2 Cor. 8:9
"Ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich."
John 6:28-29
"28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Matthew 22:36-40
"36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
You say,
Let me get this straight. You are saying that the reason Jesus told this man to keep the commandments is because one must have perfect righteousness to enter Heaven?
I say,
Yes, Jesus is trying to show the self righteous rich man that his good works are not enough.
Imagine the self deception and arrogance it must have took for the rich man to claim that he had kept the commandments from his youth. Anyone knows that that was not the case.
In order to make the man understand that his obedience was not perfect.
Jesus as God had the authority to give him a new command on the spot. which he did
“Sell everything and follow me“. This conclusively demonstrated that the rich man’s obedience was not perfect.
That is why he went away sad.
After he went away Jesus explained that it is impossible for man relying on his own righteousness to ever measure up to the standard that is required for salvation
Quote:
And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God."
(Mar 10:26-27)
End quote:
Please read the story in it’s context.
This passage is a sure antidote to folks who think that they can get to heaven based on their own imperfect righteousness.
Is your obedience perfect Jamaal??
You said,
How do we know this referred to Jesus?
I say,
I would love to have a long discussion on the identity of the suffering servant of Isaiah. But I don’t want to sidetrack the point that Jesus wants you to get from the story.
The point is your righteousness will never be enough to save you from the wrath of God (Mathew 10:27)
someone must pay for your sins If not Jesus Who do you suggest?
Peace
Jamal is the fool that proverbs describes:
Don't answer the fool according to his stupidity or you will be like him.
But then again:
Answer Jamal according to his stupidity or he will be wise in his own eyes.
So, Jamal, have you ever been to the heaven that we all know your imagining?
Matthew 17: "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
Do you not see that? Jesus explicitly said IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS!
Matthew 19:17, "IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."
Am I speaking Arabic here?
Jews and Christians pay for the sins of Muslims!
Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.
Sahih Muslim 6665—Abu Musa reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.
110 Hadith Qudsi—Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.
Romans 3:19-3:31
If God speaking Arabic here?
You are prooftexting and twisting scripture, and you know it.
Quit being deceitful.
You are taking a verse out of its immediate context, and out of its larger context (all of Scripture) as well.
It is plain you are doing this.
Stop it.
Jamal said,
"Do you not see that? Jesus explicitly said IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS!"
What did he say after that, Jamal?
Tell me.
What was the man's response to Jesus, and what was Jesus' counter-response?
Tell me.
You won't. You cannot. It destroys all you are trying to say.
You are twisting Scripture.
Read the passage from Romans I mentioned in my previous comment.
You are twisting Scripture, as Satan did to the Lord Christ in the wilderness.
That is Satan's work. Stop it.
Jamal said,
Matthew 19:17, "IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."
Am I speaking Arabic here?
I say,
Have you kept all the commands given to you perfectly and not broke a single one?
If not how will you enter life?
Jesus said that if you want to enter life you must keep the commands and you have not kept all the commands.
According to your own interpretation of this verse you have condemned yourself to Hell.
Please let that sink in. Your eternal destiny depends on it
peace
Justin said:
Read the passage from Romans I mentioned in my previous comment.
I say,
Just in case Jamal will not accept a passage written by Paul here are passages written by the Prophets David and Isaiah
quote:
The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
(Psa 14:2-3)
and
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
(Isa 64:6)
end quote;
So Jamal according to the prophets and your own interpretation of the standard Jesus set you have condemned yourself to hell.
Even your righteous deeds are as a polluted garment (the phrase means menstrual cloth) in the eyes of a Holy God
Please let that horrible truth sink in and stop expecting your own imperfect obedience buy you favor with a perfect God.
peace
@Justin
"What did he say after that, Jamal?
Tell me."
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Why would you look at that. If the man sold his possessions, he would have attained Heaven! That is what I'm reading. And don't reply by saying Jesus said "Follow me". He said that AFTER the fact that he told this man that he would attain Heaven if he sold his possessions. Besides, "follow me" is very vague.
"That is Satan's work. Stop it."
Oh please. Do you really think it's a satanic interpretation to interpret this passage as one that ordains following the commandments?
@Search 4 truth
These hadiths have been dealt with hundreds of years ago by our classical scholars. If you can find these hadith, you will be able to find their explanations online. From my previous interactions with you, you seem to be a man of research. Therefore, I will not waste time posting the explanations. I leave that to you. I will say this though:
The Quran is clear that nobody can bear the burdens of another person and that nobody will be wronged on the Day of Judgement.
".....And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger." (17:15)
"That no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another." (53:38)
"On that Day, no soul will be wronged in the least, and you will not be recompensed for anything but what you used to do." (36:54)
God placing the sins of a Muslim on a Jew or Christian would not be the reason why the Jew or Christian would go to Hell. If that was the case, then I say every non-Muslim will be in Hell and every Muslim will be in Heaven. That is obviously not going to be the case. Would you not agree?
@ Jamal
Are you imp,lying that we are to be perfect or we are to follow the Old covenant? I want to clear this up. Because your obviously not taking things in its totality! Please answer the Question ASAP. Thanks!
1 John 1:6-10
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
@ Jamal,
Wait but I thought Jesus didn't supposedly die yet. god graced Noah before killing himself/his son? How does that work?
Man, you need to really study the Bible.
Ask yourself this question:
WAS NOAH UNDER THE LAW?
To help you. NO. The laws only came by Moses. So God's grace was available to ANYONE He wanted to give it.
So it has nothing to do about THE LAW Jesus abolished, since NOAH WAS NOT UNDER THE LAW.
And that grace God graced Noah WAS NOT about eternal life, but SAVING HIM FROM THE FLOOD.
Get your fact right.
@ Jamal,
Did the people under the OT have to be perfect to attain eternal life?
YES, their perfection was in the law, but they couldn't keep it all. HENCE JESUS' COMING TO SAVE THEM AND US.
Also, Matthew 27:52-53 does not say anything about Hades. Please provide me with a proper reference.
When people die, where they go? TO HADES.
And Matthew 27:52-53 indicate their resurrection.
Read the story of Abraham in Luke 16:19-31 if you want to know about the Hades.
Jamal,
No, I think that it is Satanic to twist the scriptures to teach that one is capable of following the Law, or that salvation is found outside of faith in Jesus Christ.
Keep going, Jamal. If you read on in that story, you'll get to the point.
You keep stopping short of the end of that story and its lesson.
Wonder why?
@ Jamal,
We Muslims have the Quran that testifies to the prophethood of Muhammad.
---Seriously? yet you criticize the Bible? lol
Would you like to enter into a discussion about Quranic miracles?
---Please do provide some if you can.
Also, the authors of Mark Matthew Luke and John never claim to be disciples of Jesus.
---Matthew
Matthew 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, NAMED MATTHEW, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
---John
Matthew 10:2 Now THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and JOHN his brother;
The gospels are written at least 40 years after the supposed crucifixion by anonymous authors.
---YET you believe in the quran which was written 100 years after the death of muhammad! how nice!
We do not know who they are. Christian scholarship has testified to this.
---lol seriously? i already gave you who they are above.
Fifth Monarchy Man-
Good points, though it would be inconsistent of Jamal to quote one portion of Christian Scripture while rejecting another. I know Mohammedans are prone to do this though, for some reason.
Romans and the writing of Paul are however, authoritative in my worldview, and I am not going to abandon that for Jamal's sake.
I do appreciate you providing the Older Testament passages in support though.
The point is the same. No one perfectly keeps the law.
This makes our biggest and most terrifying problem the fact that God is both perfectly righteous and perfectly just.
Justin
@ jamal,
Why are you quoting the gospel of James? Is it canonical? Can I also quote from it?
---the Bible scriptures do not stand alone like your quran.
----------------------------
What would Jesus have told him? To not follow the Law? So Jesus tells him to follow the law and then seconds later would tell him something different?
---you clearlY did not read what i wrote, GO RE-READ IT BECAUSE YOU LET THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS I WROTE OUT and choose only what you want to address. GO BACK AND RE-READ THEM.
@ Jamal,
Matthew 17: "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
Do you not see that? Jesus explicitly said IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS!
----------STOP ASKING SOMETHING THAT I ALREADY ANSWERED.
As i said there are 613 laws in the OT.
Yes, IF ONLY YOU CAN keep ALL those commandments, then it can give you eternal life.
This man, COULD NOT OBEY ALL THE COMMANDMENTS.
One of them is GIVING to the poor as Jesus told him:
See Deuteronomy 15:9-10
Tell me something:
CAN YOU KEEP ALL THE LAWS?
You say,
If the man sold his possessions, he would have attained Heaven! That is what I'm reading.
Jamal
Have you sold all you have?? If not according to your own interpretation of this story you can't make it to paradise. please think about that.
You said
Besides, "follow me" is very vague.
I say,
Not if you allow the text to speak for itself Jesus explains just a few pages earlier exactly what it means to follow him
quote:
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul?
(Mar 8:34-37)
end quote:
Jamal do you deny yourself and give up everything and take up your cross for the sake of Jesus?
Be very careful. You will be judged by the standard you use to judge others
Have you lived up to the standard you are advocating here? Have you kept all the commands given to you?
peace
Jamal says
The Quran is clear that nobody can bear the burdens of another person and that nobody will be wronged on the Day of Judgement.
I say,
If that is true then you yourself must pay for the fact that you have not always obeyed God.
You know what the punishment for disobedience is don't you Jamal.
Are you prepared to bear that burden alone?
When the rich man contemplated that horrible prospect he went away sad.
I Thank God that Jesus was not bound to the words of the Qur'an and that for God's Children there is more to the story.
quote:
And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God."
(Mar 10:26-27)
end quote:
peace
The book of proverbs had to be written with Jamal in mind.
@Jamal,
you said,
The Quran is clear that nobody can bear the burdens of another person and that nobody will be wronged on the Day of Judgement.
What about the hadiths?
Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and HE WOULD PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians.
Sahih Muslim 6665—Abu Musa reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: THAT IS YOUR RESCUE FROM HELL FIRE.
@Jamal,
can you explain this to us?
Qur’an 29:12-13—And those who disbelieve say to those who believe: “Follow our way and we will verily bear your sins,” never will they bear anything of their sins. Surely, they are liars. And verily, they shall bear their own loads, and OTHER LOADS BESIDE THEIR OWN, and verily, they shall be questioned on the Day of Resurrection about that which they used to fabricate.
This verse contradicts itself. But explain to us what OTHER LOADS BESIDE THEIR OWN means here.
Jamal said: "The Quran is clear that nobody can bear the burdens of another person and that nobody will be wronged on the Day of Judgement."
Show me anywhere the Qur'an says that nobody can bear the burdens of another. The Qur'an NEVER says this. Instead, it says (even in the passages you quoted) that NO BEARER OF BURDEN (i.e. no one who already has a burden of sin) can bear the burden of another. In other words, if someone already has a burden of sin, he obviously can't take care of someone else's burden.
But Jesus had no burden of sin, so these verses say nothing about whether he can carry the burdens of others.
Apart from this, as NBTT just pointed out, the Qur'an completely contradicts itself, because it does say that some people will bear the burdens of others. The Qur'an is a pretty sloppy and incoherent book.
Jamal
I think it's pretty clear what they say. It says Jews and Christians will take on the sins of Muslims. I'm not sure what other explanation there is. Please provide me with something that contradicts these succinct words and phrasing.
I'm not going to touch the contradictions in the Quran and Hadith. That's for you to try and reconcile. I know that Islamic doctrine is full of problems contradictions, lies and logical fallacies. It's not my job to try and sort it out for you. I'm just revealing the problems. That's just one of the many factors the proves Islam is a lie. Answering a question with a question and asking me to figure out Islamic doctrine is not a response.im not a Muslim nor will I ever be. So I would appreciate an answer instead of asking me to go find the answer and then asking me to make sense of something illogical and contradictory.
Jamal let me put this as simple as possible,
God is eternal, he is the ancient of days, he is the creator and origin of every living thing.
So, bearing this in mind do you think you can or have done a righteous/ excellent deed that God haven't seen before???
The world is over 20000 yrs old, although some will say billions of years old, so do you think after so many thousand generations of people that have walked this earth, your righteousness can come close to pleasing GOD? No Jamal God has seen and will see better people than you or me.
That's why we have Jesus who is our perfection, that's why if we don't take our cross and follow him and believe in his sacrifice for us we can NEVER have eternal life. He died for our sins.
I see our muslim friend ran away. So this is all a muslim can do? Distorting the message of the Bible and running away when you point out certain irreconcilable contradictions in the quran and hadiths? How nice!
Pray for Muslims saints, this truly is a spiritual war we are facing here.
Maybe Jamal went to his heaven. Hopefully, he will come back to tell us all about it.
Oh wow. I actually typed a whole response on Microsoft word and then copied it. Before pasting it I copied an Arabic word...therefore that response is gone. I don't want to type it all up again so I'll make this concise:
I may have actually answered my own question. Thank you for all of your responses. But I still need your guys help. Do Christians agree that before Jesus “died”, Mosaic Law was still in effect, even while he was walking amongst the people?
@Nothin but the truth
“Did the people under the OT have to be perfect to attain eternal life?
YES, their perfection was in the law, but they couldn't keep it all. HENCE JESUS' COMING TO SAVE THEM AND US.”
Ok very good we are making progress. Now, for people who we under OT law, do they all go to Heaven? If not, what would be the reason for them going to Hell? Does the Bible address this?
As for Quran miracles and all, we shall discuss, God-willing, after this conversation about the Law is finished.
@Search for truth
“Are you implying that we are to be perfect or we are to follow the Old covenant? I want to clear this up. Because your obviously not taking things in its totality! Please answer the Question ASAP. Thanks!”
No I am not saying we have to be perfect. I am saying we are still bound to following the Laws of God, except now they are in the Quran. The Final Testament, the Quran, has taken out some of the old laws, kept some, and inserted some all in God’s wisdom.
About the hadiths, read this whole piece slowly and carefully, and you will understand: http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/04/no-substitutionary-atonement-islam.html
@David Wood
There is nothing contradictory here. The Arabic words used denote different concepts. This is the beauty of the Quran.
Firstly, the Quran says you cannot تزر the burdens of another. You cannot bear their burdens for them. But if I lead somebody else astray, I will also bear the burden of their actions. The word used is different. I will يحمل the other person’s sins. As 16:25 says, I will يحمل the sins of those who I misguided WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE. So if I start a false religion, and others are born into it without knowing its validity and they follow it, I will bear their sins which they unknowingly commited. Looks like Mr. Paul might be in trouble haha.
As for Surah 29, that is a case of me telling you to i.e worship idols and me telling you don’t worry I will carry your sins for doing that. But the Quran responds and says I cannot do that because you know worshipping idols is wrong and I cannot just bear your sin for you. But I will be punished for leading you astray. It’s a double punishment for me you see. But it does not lessen the other person’s burden. Maududi and Ibn Kathir cite the following hadith:
“Whoever invited others to the right path will be granted a reward equal to the rewards of all those who listened to him and adopted the right path, without diminishing their rewards in any way. And whoever invited others to deviation will earn a sin equal to the sins of all those who followed him, without diminishing their sins in any way.”
I can’t find the exact reference, but the people of tafsir have cited it.
Also check out 16:25. May I also ask if you have read the corresponding tafsirs of the verse?
@Jamal,
“Did the people under the OT have to be perfect to attain eternal life?
YES, their perfection was in the law, but they couldn't keep it all. HENCE JESUS' COMING TO SAVE THEM AND US.”
Ok very good we are making progress. Now, for people who we under OT law, do they all go to Heaven? If not, what would be the reason for them going to Hell? Does the Bible address this?
Out of everything I wrote, you still don't get it? wow. How low can a person go to just ignore something that has been addressed over and over again.
But to make you happy. Let me answer you again.
--Now, for people who were under OT law, do they all go to Heaven?
No.
--If not, what would be the reason for them going to Hell?
Out of His great love for them, God gave them chances for redeeming themselves by offering sacrifices for their transgressions. But that was done once a year but Jesus' sacrificial death was the ultimate/spotless sacrifice for sin and He did it once and for all (Hebrews 9:11-28).
Those people in the OT could go to hell, when after transgressing the laws, yet did not redeem themselves by offering the sacrifices God told them to offer as atonement for their sins.
Proverbs 13:13 The one who DESPISES INSTRUCTION WILL PAY THE PENALTY...
The truth is, they went to the Hades because those animal sacrifices could not even make them completely sinless. The Bible calls it THE SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME. Meaning the true/spotless sacrifice will come, and that's through Jesus death.
Hebrews 10:1-4 (KJV)
1 For THE LAW having a SHADOW of good things to come, and NOT THE VERY IMAGE of the things, CAN NEVER with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto PERFECT.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? Because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sin.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins EVERY YEAR.
4 For it is NOT POSSIBLE that the blood of bulls and of goats SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.
If you still want to ask about Hades, though I already told you, then read the story of Abraham in Luke 16:19-31, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:9-20, Jonah in Jonah 2...
@Jamal,
Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. Remember what He said in Matthew 5:17, HE CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW and the prophets.
People WILL go to hell if they don't accept what Jesus came to do for them (John 8:24, 14:6...).
--Does the Bible address this?
Yes, like a beating drum. In addition of those verses above,
Romans 2:2 We know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you DESPISE THE RICHES OF HIS GOODNESS, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But ACCORDING to your HARDNESS and UNREPENTED HEART you are treasuring up for yourself WRATH in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:”
7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life;
8 but to those who are SELF-SEEKING, and DON'T OBEY THE TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness, will be WRATH and INDIGNATION,
9 oppression and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, TO THE JEWS FIRST, and also to the Greek...
...12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have SINNED UNDER THE LAW will be JUDGED BY THE LAW.
13 For it ISN'T the hearers of the law who are RIGHTEOUS BEFORE, but THE DOERS OF THE LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED.
14 (for when Gentiles who don’t have the law do BY NATURE the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ.
Galatians 2: 15 “We, being JEWS BY NATURE, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW but through FAITH IN Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and NOT by the works of the law, because NO FLESH WILL BE JUSTIFIED by the works of the law...
... 21 I don’t reject the grace of God. For IF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH THE LAW, then Christ died for nothing!”
Romans 10: 4 For CHRIST IS THE FULFILMENT OF THE LAW for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law, “The one who does them will live by them.”
My question to you, since you are so “law minded”, and say that keeping the law will take you to heaven:
Have you kept all those 613 laws? If not, how sure are you about your salvation? How would you know you gonna make it to heaven?
And what about all those quranic and hadiths verses I asked you?
@Jamal,
“Are you implying that we are to be perfect or we are to follow the Old covenant? I want to clear this up. Because your obviously not taking things in its totality! Please answer the Question ASAP. Thanks!”
No I am not saying we have to be perfect. I am saying we are still bound to following the Laws of God, except now they are in the Quran.
You means, killing unbelievers? lol
The Final Testament, the Quran,...
Final Testament? Says who? And who died for this FINAL TESTAMENT AGAIN?
The quran, has TAKEN OUT some of the old laws, kept some, and INSERTED SOME all in God’s wisdom.
Seriously? You are in big trouble according to,
Revelation 22:18-19
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, IF ANYONE ADDS to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book. 19 IF ANYONE TAKES AWAY from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree‡ of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.
@Jamal,
can you explain this to us? PLEASE DON'T RUN AWAY.
Qur’an 29:12-13—And those who disbelieve say to those who believe: “Follow our way and we will verily bear your sins,” never will they bear anything of their sins. Surely, they are liars. And verily, they shall bear their own loads, and OTHER LOADS BESIDE THEIR OWN, and verily, they shall be questioned on the Day of Resurrection about that which they used to fabricate.
This verse contradicts itself. But explain to us what OTHER LOADS BESIDE THEIR OWN means here.
@Jamal,
Explain please.
Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and HE WOULD PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians.
Sahih Muslim 6665—Abu Musa reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: THAT IS YOUR RESCUE FROM HELL FIRE.
Jamal asks
Do Christians agree that before Jesus “died”, Mosaic Law was still in effect, even while he was walking amongst the people?
I say,
The one True God is not like Allah he is Holy his law can not be abrogated.
The law of Moses (all of it) is still in effect for everyone that is under the mosaic covenant.
The standard now is as it has always been. Perfect obedience is required to gain paradise.
Is your obedience perfect Jamil?
You say,
Now, for people who we under OT law, do they all go to Heaven? If not, what would be the reason for them going to Hell? Does the Bible address this?
I say,
The Bible is not like the Qur'an it contains all we need for Knowledge, Faith, and Obedience, concerning the worship and service of God
Quote:
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Rom 3:23-26)
End quote:
Did you get that? Saints in the Old Covenant. Had their sins payed for by Jesus Therefore they could go to heaven
God is perfect he demands perfect obedience.
Either you are relying on your own obedience to buy you favor with a perfect God or you are relying on Jesus.
This is not rocket science
Jamal. Is your obedience perfect?
Peace
Jamal,
Please stop and think about what you are saying here.
The one true God is not like the God of Islam. He is Holy he does not wink at sin. Every single act of disobedience no matter how small will be paid for.
Here are some verses to help you meditate on that .
Quote:
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
(Nahum 1:2-3)
If I sin, you watch me and do not acquit me of my iniquity.
(Job 10:14)
But Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.
(Joshua 24:19)
Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.
(Exodus 23:21)
End quote:
I pray that you will understand before it’s too late the utter blasphemy that you commit when you act as if a Holy God will let you slide by with less than perfect obedience.
God is a consuming fire stop treating him like some soft headed grandma or a timid school teacher grading on the curve.
Peace
@nothin but the truth nobody is running away stop being impatient. I'll respond to you in time. I have other priorities you know.
NBT,
Yea, we have to give Jamal time to figure out where his heaven is.
it's ok Jamal take your time. We understand.
@ Jamal
Quote " I am saying we are still bound to following the Laws of God, except now they are in the Quran. The Final Testament, the Quran, has taken out some of the old laws, kept some, and inserted some all in God’s wisdom."
OK first of all the Quran is not the word of God. Second of all you contradicted yourself in your response.
It is not the same laws when they are altered, edited, or added to.
And the final law is written in the hearts of those who accept Jesus Christ. Islam contradicts the laws, alters, and edits.
So there really is no argument that you have. Because if you do those things they are not the same. Plagiarizm, editing, and altering is not the OT law.
Thats like saying I am going to take a recipe for spaghetti with marinara sauce, but I am going to use fettucini noodles instead of spaghetti noodles, not use tomatoes, but a cream sauce, add clams but still call it spaghetti and marinara sauce when it is actually now Fettucini with white clam sauce.
Darn now I made myself hungry.
Nobody is saying you cant live your lie. Thats fine with me. But dont expect intelligent informed people to accept it.
OT
Jeremiah 31:31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
NT
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[e] 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
@ Everybody,
I'm outta here, this guy is not here to seek for the truth but to win argument.
All he does is asking the same thing over and over again.
God bless you all and to Jamal, for the last time, stop rejecting God's grace.
@Nothin but the truth
“Out of His great love for them, God gave them chances for redeeming themselves by offering sacrifices for their transgressions. But that was done once a year but Jesus' sacrificial death was the ultimate/spotless sacrifice for sin and He did it once and for all (Hebrews 9:11-28).
Those people in the OT could go to hell, when after transgressing the laws, yet did not redeem themselves by offering the sacrifices God told them to offer as atonement for their sins.”
The sacrifices did not atone for all sins. According to Elwell Evangelical Theological Dictionary, Volume V, page 875, “However, the expiatory sacrifices did not atone for all sins. Only unintentional sins, inadvertent acts of default, and particular cases of dishonesty could be atoned for.”
“can you explain this to us? PLEASE DON'T RUN AWAY.
Qur’an 29:12-13—And those who disbelieve say to those who believe: “Follow our way and we will verily bear your sins,” never will they bear anything of their sins. Surely, they are liars. And verily, they shall bear their own loads, and OTHER LOADS BESIDE THEIR OWN, and verily, they shall be questioned on the Day of Resurrection about that which they used to fabricate.
This verse contradicts itself. But explain to us what OTHER LOADS BESIDE THEIR OWN means here.”
You obviously did not read what I wrote. I will try and put it in less complicated terms:
If I tell you to sin and say that before God, I will bear the sin you commit, this is what the Quran speaks against. I cannot bear your sins for you. Do you understand that? That does not undermine the fact I will be held partially responsible for your stealing because I coerced you into doing it. So while I will bear the load of cajoling you into sinning, I cannot fully bear the punishment for you, because you also sinned. Do you understand? The Arabic words used are also different as I pointed out. Re-read what I wrote. This is very easy to understand.
“Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?” (47:24)
“Explain please.
Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and HE WOULD PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians.
Sahih Muslim 6665—Abu Musa reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: THAT IS YOUR RESCUE FROM HELL FIRE.”
Here you go: http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/04/no-substitutionary-atonement-islam.html
@ Fifth Monarchy Man
“The one True God is not like Allah he is Holy his law can not be abrogated.
The law of Moses (all of it) is still in effect for everyone that is under the mosaic covenant.
The standard now is as it has always been. Perfect obedience is required to gain paradise.”
So out of all the people before the supposed crucifixion, only saints go to Heaven? Please define what is a saint. Are you telling me that there existed perfect people among those of the Law? I thought that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. A sin means going against God’s Law. Therefore according to you, nobody was perfect under the OT. There was no perfect obedience because Paul says EVERYBODY has fallen short. So how did OT folk attain Salvation?
@Search 4 truth
“OK first of all the Quran is not the word of God.”
This we shall discuss after the current topic is addressed. God-willing, I will demonstrate the divinity of the Quran. Stay tuned.
“It is not the same laws when they are altered, edited, or added to.”
Sir, you’re whole belief is a complete abrogation of the Old Testament. So much so that Marcion concluded that the God of OT and NT are two different gods. You went from spaghetti to…I don’t know…salad? Hahahaha. Bad joke... But seriously, God decides which Laws are best for which generation in His Wisdom. So for example the Quran abrogated Sabbath observance, it kept prohibition of pork and alcohol, and added some things such as how to make contracts with two witnesses, etc. I don’t see anything wrong with that. But please address the current topic, and then I will go through Quran miracles, and see what you guys think.
Jamal,
you find your heaven yet?
@ Jamal
Quote "Sir, you’re whole belief is a complete abrogation of the Old Testament. So much so that Marcion concluded that the God of OT and NT are two different gods."
Actually it is not an abrogation. it is a fulfillment. Did you not read what I posted? Your completely ignoring the evidence provided for you. Thats not how it works! In the OT it is prophesied that there will be a New covenant! Ignoring the evidence is not very scholarly of you.
Jeremiah 31:31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
It is a fulfillment not an abrogation. Your Allah is the one that cannot make up his mind within a span of a few years while whispering into the ear of your false Prophet.
Also I could care less what Marcion said. He can have his opinion if he wants. He is not my authority. Do you want me to provide opinions of others that say Islams Allah is not the God of the Bible and who criticize Mohamed and say he is a false prophet? Thats not a problem.
What you need to do is actually read the responses given. And your the one who claimed to be following and altered law that was consistent with the OT. Not me. So I dont even understand your point. Its like your taking your statement and applying it to me in order to prove yourself correct. Im not even sure what kind of logical fallacy that is. but Im sure I could find out. Maybe a straw man of some sort. . But let me reveal a few you have made.
Straw man – an argument based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position
False attribution – an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Fallacy of quoting out of context (contextomy) – refers to the selective excerpting of words from their original context in a way that distorts the source's intended meaning
Historian's fallacy – occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision.
Faulty generalizations – reach a conclusion from weak premises. Unlike fallacies of relevance, in fallacies of defective induction, the premises are related to the conclusions yet only weakly buttress the conclusions. A faulty generalization is thus produced.
Cherry picking (suppressed evidence, incomplete evidence) – act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
@ Jamal
As for that web site you provided. I read it. And it is contradictory and he provides NO evidence for any of his assertions. Its funny because Muslims seem to think that if they say something it automatically becomes doctrine and is explaining it when he actually isnt saying anything at all. But lets look at his absurd attempts at apologetics.
And it appears that this hadith is a commentary to the hadith of Ransom. As a disbeliever’s dwelling in Paradise is inherited (i.e. filled) by a believer, and a believer’s dwelling in Hell is filled by a disbeliever, it is in a sense like a ransom for a believer through a disbeliever. And Allah knows the best!
(Shu’b al-Iman, Maktaba’ al-Rushd, Riyadh 2003 vol.1 p.581)
This is consistant with the hadith I provided. The non Muslim is inheriting the place of the Muslim. The hadith clearly states sins! SINS!
The ICRAA blog only mentioned the two hadith that did not mention the SINS!
Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.
Quite deceptive of them to NO mention the hadith that says the SINS will be inherited.
The Muslims will have sins as heavy as a mountain and Allah will forgive their sins and place in their stead the non believers!
So give me your best argument from that blog. Because I dont see anything. He also referenced 23:10 and put his spin on it. But its not consistent with the tafsirs. So he is just making it up as he goes.
23:9
* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ وَٱلَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ }
And who are watchful of their prayers (may be read as plural, salawātihim, ‘their prayers’, or singular, salātihim, ‘their prayer’) observing them at their appointed times.
23:10
* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ أُوْلَـٰئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْوَارِثُونَ }
Those, they are the inheritors, and none other than them,
* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ أُوْلَـٰئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْوَارِثُونَ }
(These) those whose traits are thus (are the heirs) the dwellers,
This has no relevance to the hADITH. Its just plucking a ayat out of the Quran and applying it to this hadith but it has NO relevance. Sorry Charlie!
@ Jamal
And the Quran has altered, edited, and erased much of the Mosaic law. Here are a few.
Even though capital punishment was prescribed in the Law of Moses, there are significant differences between the Bible and the Qur'an. The Bible does not promote torture such as crucifixion or the beating of women. There is discipline within the church but it does not include physical punishment. The New Testament leaves the punishment of evildoers to the civil authorities (Romans 13:1-7).
The Qur'an Says ...
Adulterers 100 Lashes Both the male and female who are guilty of adultery or premarital sex are to be flogged with one hundred lashes. Absolutely no mercy is to be given. It is to be witnessed by a group of Muslims. The adulterers can only marry a person who has been found guilty of the same crime or an unbeliever in the religion or Islam (24:2,3).
Unsupported Accusation Eighty Lashes If a person accuses a good woman of sexual misconduct and cannot produce four witnesses, that accuser must be flogged with eighty stripes and never again will their evidence be considered (24:4).
Swear Four Times If a man accuses his wife without witnesses, he must swear four times calling down a curse on himself if he is lying. If his wife denies the allegations and does the same thing then there will be no punishment (24:6-9).
Retaliation for Murder When a person is murdered then retaliation is allowed as long as it is “equitable.” A free man is to be killed if a free man was murdered—a slave for a slave and a female for a female. If the wronged party forgives then a liberal fine should be paid (2:178).
Denying Islam If believers are forced to recant their Muslim faith but in their hearts they believe, they will be forgiven. Those who deny Islam, after being a Muslim, will suffer the wrath of Allah and be sternly punished (16:106).
Women Confined for Indecency If a woman is accused by four witnesses of indecency and she confesses to it, confine her to her home until she dies. If two men are convicted for the same thing they should both be punished but if they repent leave them alone (4:15,16).
Beating Rebellious Women Women who are suspected of disobedience must be scolded, made to sleep alone and beaten. When they return to obedience, no further punishment should be administered (4:34). The Qur'an says that the Biblical character, Job, was commanded to fulfill some unexplained vow by beating his wife (38:44).
Cut Off Hands of Thieves Men or women who steal must have their hands cut off as a reward for their deeds. This will be an example for others (5:38).
Behead and Maim The hearts of the infidels will be terrorized so Muslims should attack with courage and behead them and cut off all their fingers. Maiming your victims will show that opposing Allah and Mohammed results in severe punishment. They are going to Hell (8:12-14).
Crucify or Maim Those who make war on Allah and Mohammed or strive to spread disorder in the land should be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides or be exiled. They must be degraded in this world and doomed in the afterlife except those that repent before the Muslims capture them. In their case Allah will forgive them (5:33,34).
And lets not forget child molestation and rape and adultery which Allah has ordained for the Muslims. Which is completely inconsistent with the Mosaic law.
@Search 4 truth
It doesn’t matter whether it was prophesized or not. That does not change the fact that the Law was abolished. You have heard that eye for eye, BUT I TELL YOU…What do you call that? Fulfillment is just a fancy term. Plus, this prophecy is very ambiguous. Firstly it should be a covenant with the world, not just with Israel and Judah, Secondly, what does “putting the law in their minds” mean? It’s subject to multiple interpretations. “No longer will they teach their neighbor,” what is that supposed to mean? This prophecy could refer to when in 533 BC, God’s people in the houses of Judah and Israel returned from Babylonian exile. Also, could you please explain this:
Exodus 31:16 - The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a LASTING covenant.
It’s very inconsistent of you to label Quranic miracles as vague and you do not apply the same standard to the Bible. Let me know when you are ready to discuss the proofs for Quran’s divine origin.
Jamal asks,
Please define what is a saint.
I say,
A saint is a child of God These are the folks that David was talking about in Psalms 32
quote:
Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
(Psalms 32:1-2)
end quote:
You say,
Are you telling me that there existed perfect people among those of the Law?
I say,
No one’s obedience is perfect except Jesus the Word of God is clear about that. This includes saints who lived before the time of Christ
You say,
Paul says EVERYBODY has fallen short
I say,
Not only Paul but I and David and all the Prophets. Did you not read the OT passages I posted?
You say,
So how did OT folk attain Salvation?
I say,
Saints in the Old covenant had their sins covered by the blood of Jesus Just like Christians today do. God is not bound by time or space. The passage I posted makes it clear that Jesus’s sacrifice was applied retroactively to God’s children who lived before the Incarnation. Their faith looked forward to the work of the Christ ours looks back to his work. We Share the same faith and we all make it to heaven the same way
Come on Jamal Ive already covered this
Do you not read what other people post?
Peace
@Search 4 truth
I doubt you read the article.
“Its meaning is that Allah will forgive these sins for the Muslims and will remove it (the burden of sins) from them. And the like of it (i.e. the burden of sins) will be put on the Jews and Christians due to their disbelief and their sins. And they will be made to enter the Hell-Fire because of their own deeds and not for the sins of the Muslims. And this interpretation is expedient due to the word of the Almighty, “And no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another.” (Sharah al-Nawawi,.vol.17 p.85)
“So the subject "it" here is pointing to 'sins' in general and not the specific sins committed by the Muslims.”
(Takmila Fath al-Mulhim, Dar Ehia al-Tourath al-Arabi, Beirut 2006 vol.6 p.32)
Also, “in their stead” denotes the fact that the non-Muslim will take the place of the Muslim in Hell:
And the meaning of this Hadith is like what is reported in a narration from Abu Hurayrah that, “For everyone there is a place in Paradise and a place in Hell” So if the believer enters paradise his place in Hellfire will be occupied by a disbeliever, due to (the fact that) he himself deserves it because of his disbelief. And the meaning of [the words] ‘Your rescue from Hell’ is that you were susceptible to entry into Hell and this (disbeliever) is (as such) your rescue for Almighty Allah has destined for Hell a number that will fill it and (the number will be completed) when the disbelievers enter it due to their disbelief and sins. This is referred to as rescue for Muslims.”
(Sharah al-Nawawi, Dar Ehia al-Tourath al-Arabi, Beirut 1392 A.H.vol.17 p.85)
“The Bible does not promote torture such as crucifixion or the beating of women.”
“If the guilty person deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make them lie down and have them flogged in his presence with the number of lashes the crime deserves.” (Deuteronomy 25:2)
You people have a knack for turning the conversation to Islam. My question is still unanswered. Who under the OT goes to Hell?
And anybody care to explain this: “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)
@ Jamal
Yes it does matter if it was prophesied. Why doesnt it matter? Because you say it doesnt matter? An eye for an eye was about equity. Not literal. LOL fulfillment is just a fancy term? No it is an accurate statement!
ful·fill also ful·fil (fl-fl)
tr.v. ful·filled, ful·fill·ing, ful·fills also ful·fils
1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
2. To carry out (an order, for example).
3. To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform, satisfy.
4. To bring to an end; complete.
It mentions Israel and Judah because those were the only ones who were following the Mosaic law at the time. Because they had already made the covenant with God. And then God is saying that there will be a new covenant. He is not going to make a new covenant with pagans because he never had a covenant with them prior. LOL! Come on man.
Well sure you can say anything is subject to interpretation. Look at the Quran. its a mess. Muslims rarely agree on anything. A sura means this today and then another day it means something else.
Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
The people of God shall become numerous and prosperous. In Hebrews 8:8,9, this place is quoted as the sum of the covenant of grace made with believers in Jesus Christ. Not, I will give them a new law; for Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it; but the law shall be written in their hearts by the finger of the Spirit, as formerly written in the tables of stone. The Lord will, by his grace, make his people willing people in the day of his power. All shall know the Lord; all shall be welcome to the knowledge of God, and shall have the means of that knowledge. There shall be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, at the time the gospel is published. No man shall finally perish, but for his own sins; none, who is willing to accept of Christ's salvation.
Mark 2:27 says, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. W e are not under Law, but grace (Rom. 6:14-15). The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus because in Him we have rest (Matt. 11:28). We are not under obligation to keep the Law and this goes for the Sabbath as well.
What Quranic miracles? I havent encountered any. Please dont go into the numerical miracles. Because its going to get real embarrassing for you. To tell you the truth Im really not interested.
Jamal says,
It doesn’t matter whether it was prophesied or not. That does not change the fact that the Law was abolished.
I say,
Just claiming something does not make it so. Apparently you are very confused about what a Covenant is.
You must believe that a widow who marries the second time is an adulterer.
This sort of confusion is to be expected from someone like you.
Quote:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
End quote:
Before spending time discussing the minutia of covenantal obedience why don’t you focus on understanding how one makes it to heaven.
Have you kept all the commands given to you?
If not how do you expect a Holy God to allow a law breaker like you into his presence?
This is pretty simple stuff I would think you could answer the question.
Peace
Jamal said,
Let me know when you are ready to discuss the proofs for Quran’s divine origin.
The true Word of God says,
quote:
"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
(Deuteronomy 13:1-3)
end quote;
nuff said
peace
@ Jamal
I did read the article. I actually copy and pasted part of it here.
Now look what it says.
Its meaning is that Allah will forgive these sins for the Muslims and will remove it (the burden of sins) from them. And the like of it (i.e. the burden of sins) will be put on the Jews and Christians due to their disbelief and their sins.
Which is consistent with the hadith is presented!
He says the burden of sins will be put on the Jews and Christians. Ok thats what the hadith says.
Then he contradicts himself.
And they will be made to enter the Hell-Fire because of their own deeds and not for the sins of the Muslims. And this interpretation is expedient due to the word of the Almighty, “And no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another.” (Sharah al-Nawawi,.vol.17 p.85)
So the burden of the Muslims will be put on the Jews and Christians, but LOL! They will be put in hell because of their own sins.
Thats illogical and contradictory. and it says that they will enter hell for their disbelief. But isnt that contradictory to the Quran as well?
And the meaning of this Hadith is like what is reported in a narration from Abu Hurayrah that, “For everyone there is a place in Paradise and a place in Hell” So if the believer enters paradise his place in Hellfire will be occupied by a disbeliever, due to (the fact that) he himself deserves it because of his disbelief. (Sharah al-Nawawi, Dar Ehia al-Tourath al-Arabi, Beirut 1392 A.H.vol.17 p.85)
So disbelief alone is adequate to send you to hell. Unless your going to say that he contradicts himself.
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." S. 2:62
HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? The author of that hadith is contradicting Allah and himself.
Jamal this is not crucifixion or the beating of women because they do not obey their husbands. You seem not to be able to follow the stream of thought here.
If the guilty person deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make them lie down and have them flogged in his presence with the number of lashes the crime deserves.” (Deuteronomy 25:2)
What is the context of this? Its certainly NOT crucifixion and it is not beating of wives for disobedience or fear of disobedience. Read the context.
For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.
Jamal do you know what "until all is accomplished means?
THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF CHRIST! The fulfillment!
“What Quranic miracles? I havent encountered any. Please dont go into the numerical miracles. Because its going to get real embarrassing for you. To tell you the truth Im really not interested. “
Why shy from the truth? The Book is right here. The Miracle is right here. As the Jews saw Moses split the sea and Jesus raise the dead with the permission of God, we too need a miracle.
Firstly, many of the early commentators of the Quran had trouble with certain verses that we only understand today. Islam establishes that the wonders of the Quran will never end and that God will continue to show us signs so that we may be convinced of the truth. So please don’t “refute” these miracles by bringing up pre-modern tafsirs whose writers could not understand the meanings. Let us begin. I will do it one by one.
The Quran’s affirmation of the expansion of the universe:
The modern Sahih International translation of 51:47 – “And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.”
The last word, لموسعون, is a present tense verb referring to the ever-expanding universe. You may ask any Arab to confirm.
What do you think?
Jamal: You ask about how salvation works for those in the old testament, I would point to Romans 4 to help explain this.
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” -Romans 4:1-3
" Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!" -Romans 4:9-10
Full Passage here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+4&version=NIV
Those who live in a faithful following of God receive the benefits of the redemption sacrifice of Christ. Those who do not receive it, do not. As it was pointed out God is outside space and time, and so his sacrifice works both ways. It's as simple as that.
Jamal says,
And anybody care to explain this: “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)
I say,
It means what it says
God's Law can not be changed. This is not hard.
a couple of bonus points for you.
1. Jesus accomplished it all at the cross.
2. "These commands" are the law of Christ that Jesus is expounding to the disciples in the context of this very passage not the laws concerning Nazirite haircuts that apply to those in the old covenant.
This is not a difficult subject Jamal Christians study this stuff all the time at home and in their Churches.
But you need to understand the basics first.
How can you as a law breaker find peace with a Holy and Just God who promises that every sin will be payed for?
peace
@ Jamal
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Sarhan al-Mashayekh is one of seven men whose death sentences were confirmed by King Abdullah on Saturday. The other six will be shot by firing squad.
Mashayekh will be executed at the same time and then, to fulfil his additional sentence, his body will be displayed to the public in a cruciform position for three days.
The seven were convicted of armed robbery, but one of the men, in an interview yesterday from his prison cell, claimed that the group was unarmed when they stole jewellery from a string of shops in the southern Saudi Arabian city of Abha in 2004 and 2005. He said that confessions to armed robbery, used as the basis of their trial for robbery in January 2006, were beaten out of the men.
Amnesty said that that the sentences were in any case excessive, while Human Rights Watch added that at least two of the group were minors at the time of the crimes, and none was over 20. "Their trial lasted only a few hours, and they were denied any legal representation or appeal," an Amnesty spokesman said.
"Security officers who were present at the trial warned them that if they withdrew their 'confessions' they would be tortured again, and members of their families, including their mothers, would be brought to prison and tortured in front of them.
"We are urging the King to halt immediately the executions, and calling on the the authorities to investigate the seven men's allegations that they were tortured and otherwise ill-treated.
Saudi authorities regularly order beheadings and other forms of death sentence for rape and murder, and while armed robbery can also attract the ultimate penalty it is employed more rarely.
Crucifixion is occasionally ordered as an extra humiliation - and warning - even where the method of initial execution is beheading.
Abha is in the country's far south-west, and more conservative than other parts of the kingdom such as Jeddah. Without a written legal code, judges in Saudi Sharia courts have wide flexibility to impose verdicts and sentences.
The Washington-based Institute of Gulf Affairs, which is also campaigning against the sentences, claims that people from the south of the country are regarded as second-class citizens and regularly receive harsher punishments as a form of deterrence against unrest.
One of the seven men, Nasser al-Qahtani, used a smuggled phone to tell the Associated Press from his cell that he was only 15 at the time of the crime.
"I killed no one," he said. "I didn't have weapons while robbing the store, but the police tortured me, beat me up and threatened to assault my mother to extract confessions that I had a weapon with me while I was only 15. We don't deserve death."
He said the judge at his trial took no notice of the torture claims.
"We showed him the marks of torture and beating, but he didn't listen," he said. "I am talking to you now and my relatives are telling me that the soil is prepared for our executions tomorrow."
In a statement, Eric Goldstein, deputy Middle East director of Human Rights Watch, said: "It will be outrageous if the Saudi authorities go ahead with these executions.
"It is high time for the Saudis to stop executing child offenders and start observing their obligations under international human rights law."
@ Jamal
Quote " As the Jews saw Moses split the sea and Jesus raise the dead with the permission of God, we too need a miracle."
Where does it say Jesus asked or needed permission from God to raise the dead? LOL!
Quote "Firstly, many of the early commentators of the Quran had trouble with certain verses that we only understand today. Islam establishes that the wonders of the Quran will never end and that God will continue to show us signs so that we may be convinced of the truth. So please don’t “refute” these miracles by bringing up pre-modern tafsirs whose writers could not understand the meanings."
Can you explain to me why pre modern scholars could not interpret the Quran or hadith but now people are able to? That is absurd. I want to know why they could not understand the Quran then but now apologists can? So what your doing is saying that science of today has refuted the early interpreters of the Quran. And now you want to reinterpret the Quran and hadith and mold it to fit science.
But Allah should have known and been clear from the start. Isnt that what Allah said. he was clear with his message?
But sense the early interpreters understood the Quran to mean one thing long ago and science has refuted them now you want to ignore them and reinterpret the Quran and hadith.
And then later when science discovers something new you will just reinterpret and keep changing the meanings. So science is your God and Not God. When it should have been God telling the scientists not the other way around!
I cant believe Im having this conversation. Do you actually believe what your saying makes sense?
What do I think? I think your delusional.
@ Jamal
Waalssamaa banaynaha bi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoona [26]
Yusuf Ali: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Pickthal: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Shakir: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Qur'an 51:47
See above in the 3 most respected English translations, none of them mention anything about anexpanding universe. this is because 51:47 has nothing to do with the universe expanding. In Arabic, the word "Samaa" means "heaven" or "sky" (singular). "SamaaWat" means "heavens" (plural). Whenever the Quran talks about "the sky and beyond", it always uses the plural word "samaaWat" and not the singular word "Samaa." Some example verses are: Qur'an 2:107, Qur'an 2:116, Qur'an 2:117, Qur'an 3:29, Qur'an 3:83, Qur'an 3:109, Qur'an 3:129, Qur'an 3:189, Qur'an 3:190, Qur'an 4:126, Qur'an 4:131, Qur'an 4:132, Qur'an 5:40, Qur'an 5:120, Qur'an 6:1, Qur'an 6:3, Qur'an 6:12, Qur'an 7:54, Qur'an 23:86, Qur'an 24:35, Qur'an 24:64, Qur'an 25:2, Qur'an 25:59, etc.
Whenever the Quran talks about the "sky and beyond", it always uses the plural word "SamaaWat" and not the singular word "Samaa.' Some example verses are: Qur'an 17:44, Qur'an 23:86, Qur'an 41:12, Qur'an 65:12, Qur'an 67:3, Qur'an 71:15,etc.
The Quran always says "sab'a SamaaWat" or "SamaaWat As-Sab'a" (which means the 7 Heavens). It never says "Sab'a samaa" or "samaa As-sab'a" as that is completely incorrect. Since it uses the singular and not the plural, then it is clearly only talking about the sky, so a correct translation of this verse would be: "And The sky, We built with might and We it is who make the vast extent."
Therefore Allah is saying that he built the sky and then he praises himself for having such a great and vast power.
The word that causes the most controversy in this verse is "lamusiun." It is important to state that in the context of 51:47, this word is the word Allah has used to describe the vastness and greatness of his power. In other words, "lamusiun" is used to describe Allah himself, and not and expanding universe. If the Quran wanted to talk about an expanding Universe,it would have used the word "noosi'uhaa" which means "we are expanding it." That would have prevented all the misunderstanding and the Quran would have used the word "sammaaWat" (Heavens). Unfortunately, the word "noosi'uhaa" is nowhere to be found in the Quran.
Jamal says,
“And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.”
The word of God written a thousand years earlier says:
Quote:
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
(Isaiah 40:22)
End quote;
Why in the world would any one be impressed by a poor attempt to plagiarize the writings of the true Prophets?
The Bible taught that the universe was expanding long before Muhammad raided his first caravan.
come on Jamil quit trying to muddy the waters.
How can a law breaker like you escape hell?
peace
@ Search 4 truth
“Can you explain to me why pre modern scholars could not interpret the Quran or hadith but now people are able to? That is absurd. I want to know why they could not understand the Quran then but now apologists can?”
Suppose the Bible is miraculous and Yahweh says He will show His signs in it until the people believe in it. And in this Bible it is mentioned that the moon orbits the sun (just as an example). And we are translating this Bible and so we do not interpret it this way because the idea is preposterous. 1400 years later people discover that the moon is orbiting the sun, and the Bible contains a reference to this. And the Christians say AHA LOOK! Our book says this already. I think you can understand that. Also, its not apologists. There are organizations of Arab scholars who have conferences overseas on this matter. It is quite legitimate.
May I ask you if you know Arabic or you posted this explanation from a website? Because the analysis is completely wrong. I do not however, want to provide a clarification if you will not comprehend it. So let me know.
I’ll move on. The Bible refers to the ruler at the time of Joseph as “Pharaoh.” The Quran refers to him as “King.” The fact of the matter is that indeed he was called a king for the term Pharaoh was not used in that time period. So why did Muhammad change it from Pharaoh to king if he plagiarized from the Bible? Also, keep in mind hieroglyphics was a dead language. For more information:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/josephdetail.html
To my dear fellow Family-In- Christ, I thank God you have the patience wisdom to continue to deal with this obvious twisting by satan!
We are taught to use the Bible to interpretate the Bible, Praise the Lord!
Whereas @jamal the muslim, uses outside sources without providing context & verse but he does use "text to con", as one of my fellow Christian stated here:
"You are taking a verse out of its immediate context, and out of its larger context (all of Scripture) as well!"
This how @jamal the muslim responds when he is cornered:
"Secondly, what context?"
"And I don’t care what John said I’m talking about the supposed words of Jesus."
"This is your own interpretation"..
ETC ETC....
There was only one intruction to Adam/man and he screwed-it-up.
Now there are 613 laws to adhere to & here we have @jamal the muslim who says he can, just like what the Old Testament Isrealites and the young ruler boasted to God they could! Look at the various misery that they went through in the OT and in various forms thereafter BUT the God Of Abraham continued to Bless, is Faithful, Mercyful & Full of Grace to them!
@jamal the muslim the Promises & Blessings of OT where on the Jews based on the Old Convenant there is no convenant with you the muslims whose insistence to follow the law is what satan wants you to Believe, UNLESS you follow the New Convenant/New Testament that is cut for All, Then only the Promises and Blessings of the OT you can Claim which will Flow into you!
muslims use to poke fun at Christians about how the transfer of sin from one to another is absurd, but satan also included that in islam.... as in everything else it is the twisted perverted version... LOL, @jamal the muslim at least I hope you can see that twisting!
God chose one group of people as an example,to record, His Love, His Grace, His Faithfullness, His Judgement, His Wrath,etc.. So that the world would know His Standards & what is required. Believe in His Grace, that He will Provide the path for us to Walk with Him again as it was in the Beginning, Just as Abraham obeyed & believed that He will provide!
Oh, by the way: Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
Jamal,
don't be so hilarious.
Why won't you tell me where your heaven is?
Now, you're threating us with hellfire. So, where do you think your hell is?
Jamal said:
I’ll move on.
I say,
Jamal I realize you want to move on but you have not addressed the issue that you originally brought up.
When you move on instead of dealing with the original topic it's called dodging the question.
It's is a common tactic for those on the loosing end of an argument.
I can't speak for the others and I could care less who is declared the winner in this exchange but I care about you to much as a brother in humanity to allow you to move on until you tell us
How you as a law breaker can find peace with a Holy God who will punish every act of disobedience?
It's the same question that the rich man had to deal with.
You brought this story up remember according to your own reading of it you stand condemned to hell.
lets deal with that before we deal with how you can possibly know the name of the ruler in Joseph's time when you don't even know exactly when Joesph lived.
What is your answer? Once that is done we can move on
Peace
@Fifth monarchy man
Before engaging in dialogue, You must internalize the sentiment that there is a chance that your faith is mistaken. The same applies for me.
Now,
“Saints in the Old covenant had their sins covered by the blood of Jesus Just like Christians today do. God is not bound by time or space.”
Let me make this as clear as possible. According to your theology, everybody is a sinner. So every person of the OT was a sinner. How can a sinner be a saint? Does saint mean that they followed the laws perfectly?
The blood of Jesus as you have it, does it atone for everybody’s sins, including those of the OT? If yes, then all OT folk should go to Heaven. If not, you have a problem. You say the saints have their sins expiated. I say that cannot be if everybody is a sinner.
Psalm 32 makes matters worse.
“Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the one
whose sin the LORD does not count against them
and in whose spirit is no deceit.”
Forgiveness? According to your theology there HAS to be a sacrifice. So in this passage, who is the one whose transgressions are forgiven and why? Bear in mind this is OT time.
“It means what it says
God's Law can not be changed. This is not hard.”
That’s not what it says.
“Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES THEM AND TEACHES THEM shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
These are the words of Jesus. Can you please explain? As for your point about it referring only to Jesus’ commands, even if that were true, that would mean that people who divorce their wives for a reason other than adultery are relaxes a commandment. Therefore, according the passage above, they will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
“It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in.”
I’ll give this to you, even though I’m not sure the Greek word used is analogous to the Arabic word used by the Quran which denotes constant expansion. But Thank You. Now, can you explain why Muhammad didn’t plagiarize the scientific errors of the Bible?
“How can a law breaker like you escape hell?”
How can the law breakers of the OT escape hell?
“lets deal with that before we deal with how you can possibly know the name of the ruler in Joseph's time when you don't even know exactly when Joseph lived.”
You are not understanding the point. It’s not a specific name. It’s the general title. The rulers during those centuries were called kings, not Pharaohs. The Bible erroneously refers to the rulers of Egypt during Joseph’s time as Pharaoh. The Quran changes it to King. Why didn’t it write Pharaoh if it plagiarizes the Bible?
The evidence for the ruler of Joseph’s time called “King” is here: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/josephdetail.html
To all take heed:
The fool in this passage is Jamal.
"Do not speak in the hearing of a fool,
For he will despise the wisdom of your words." Proverbs 23:9
Gotta love proverbs. It has some great descriptions of folks like Jamal.
@Search for truth
The hadiths could also mean sins which the Jews and Christians innovated and initiated, because whoever starts a bad thing will bear a burden of sin like that of each person who does that thing. If there was a Jew or Christian back in the day who caused a Muslim to sin, and the Muslim did so unknowingly, the sin will be placed on the Jew or Christian culpable. Or it could mean that if a Christian insulted a Muslim repeatedly, and did not ask for the person’s forgiveness, then on the Day of Judgement God will give the Muslim some good deeds of the Christian and place bad deeds of the Muslim on the Christian. That is a concept in Islam. If somebody is wronged and justice does not take place in this world, then justice will be served in the Hereafter.
Hadiths are sayings of the Prophet, there are thousands, and if some appear to conflict with a Quranic doctrine then we are free to interpret it in a way that still makes sense but could be a bit unusual. This I rare though. But is a principle enshrined in Islamic Studies. You might ask why don’t I do the same with the Bible. I try to. But for a verse like the following, can you give me an unusual interpretation that still makes sense:
“Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
I’ll even accept your interpretation of 5:18 in the light of “until all is accomplished.” This is despite Jesus saying, “until Heaven and Earth pass away,” which is something that clearly hasn’t happened yet. Or has it? Lol. But how do you interpret 5:19?
@ Jamal
Ok I see you want to change topics after I refuted all of your assertions.
So the hadith that Jews and Christians take on the sins iof Muslims is valid. I refuted ICRAA. I showed you that Jesus is the sullsillment of the covenant. And that we are not under the old coveant. Now you want to take about reinterpretations of the Quran o fit science. OK!
First of all the Quran says that the sun and moon orbit the earth. So Allah was wrong again.
Don't you see that Allah merges night into day and he merges day into night and he has subjected the sun, and the moon each running its course for a term appointed. And Allah is aware of what you do.
Qur'an 31:29
Allah is He who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see; is firmly established on the throne; He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs for a term appointed. He regulates the matter, explaining the signs in detail, so you can be certain of meeting with your Lord.
Qur'an 13:2
Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things [...] And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. And as night occurs the sun goes of to its resting place, before returning the following day. And the moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns
Qur'an 36:36-39
And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They all float in rounded courses.
Qur'an 21:33
...khalaqa (created) allayla (the night) waalnnahara (and the day) waalshshamsa (and the sun) waalqamara (and the moon) kullun (each) fee (in) falakin (a rounded course) yasbahoona (they swim)
He has made subject to you the Night and the Day; the Sun and the moon
Qur'an 16:12
And He hath made subject to you the Sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses; and the night and the day hath he (also) made subject to you.
Qur'an 14:33
Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. [...]
Qur'an 41:37
Here it is again: heavens and earth, night and day, sun and moon.
He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?
Qur'an 39:5
Allah fails again!
Proverbs 27:22
"Though you pound a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain, Yet his foolishness will not depart from him."
Reminds me of Jamal.
It's good that YHWH has a sense of humor.
@ Jamal
Your reasoning is illogical. It can only have one meaning. You cant say the Quran says one thing when that is what people believe at one time is to be true. And then once it is found out that it is scientifically innacurate you say oh, the Quran doesnt say that any more. It says this. How is that even logical in your mind? It says what it says.
The early schiolars had no reason to lie about what the Quran says. Now all of a sudden science refutes the Quran and the early scvholars and willfully ignorant apologists like yourself want to say that it says something entierly different. THATS PREPOSTEROUS!
And you didnt present any scholrs. You posted a translation of a verse. But you prefaced it by satying dont ask the scholars. I should trust you and ignore the scholars.
Are you serious? That is completely illogical. And dismissing what I wrote is not a rebuittal.
Here I can do it as well.
Jamal everything you said is absurd, you dont know what your talking about. Thats not a rebuttal!
The early scholars had no resean to lie, they were being as honest as they cpould be READING from the Quran! You on the other hand have every motivation to lie and reinterpret the Quran because NOW science refutes the Quran and you want to reinterpret it to fit science. THAT MAKES NO SENSE JAMAL!
@ Jamal what relevance is it that hieroglyphics is a dead language? Pwoplw still read dead languages today. Being a dead language only means that it is not used in circulatiion on an every day basis! And this in no way refutes the fact that he plagerized from the Bible, Pganasim and gnositicism. Do you really believe that this is evidence that he did not plagerize? The changing of one word is evidence for you? It doesnt take much to impress you as far as the Quran goes.
Here is the response to this ridiculoyus assertion.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/joseph.htm
Search 4 truth,
An arrogant fool you are. This is what you people have to resort to in order to keep your religion. You added your own words to the translations you provided. Pompously spewing terms like "ridiculous" makes you think the problem goes away. The answering-islam link you provided is a pathetic cop-out massively refuted by the scholarly link I provided, with hieroglyph images and all. Also, you cannot understand the fact that hieroglyphics were not understood by anybody until the Rosetta stone discovery.
Your entire religion is based on the assertion that the Resurrection is what best fits history. Yet you hypocrites turn around and spew the most absurd of ideas such as Muhammad knowing the gospels, the gnostics, the apocrypha, hieroglyphics, science, medicine, etc. These idiotic claims with absolutely no historical evidence. It's all just one big coincidence right? Just like the Makkans said when they had no answer to the Quran, "This is magic!" In this day and age, he was just an epileptic polymath I guess.
One word you say? By God, you cannot even handle one miracle, let alone the thousands of pages of only linguistic miracles recorded by Arab linguists for 1400 years and continuing. Why on earth would Muhammad make a one word change and risk contradicting the Bible, and yet this one word change turns out to be accurate? And this is assuming that he plagiarized, despite that he was illiterate. Oh but maybe he heard stories? MAYBE THIS MAYBE THAT. Do you have any idea of the utter ridiculous stories floating around at that time? Muhammad somehow remembered everything he heard and sorted through it all. He did not, God did.
Keep wallowing in denial. I have admitted on numerous occasions to be being mistaken and accepting your view. Your arrogance keeps you from doing so. I have delivered the message. You show no interest.
Keep worshiping your perverted invention of a triune god who became incarnate, just as the Hindus worship the incarnate Krishna and justify it, and all the ancient civilizations who worshiped their perverted versions of god and gods. There is NO GOD worthy of worship except THE GOD, the God in the beginning who knows everything, not a Father who knows and can do some things and a Son who does not know when the Hour is, and these two, I mean three have always existed. The sole purpose of their existence is for the father to keep killing his son because he loves his creation more than his supposed eternal son. A father who didn't even sacrifice his son because the son is supposedly still alive. And to bring this son into the world god had to impregnate Mary. Oh no, the holy spirit did. But according to you, the holy spirit is 100% god. Yup, keep going. I’m not going to waste my time. If you believe in a prophet who committed incest, a prophet who walked around with foreskins, a dude who wrestled with god and married two sisters, and you reject Muhammad, that is most ridiculous. My faith is strengthened. When I bring out the Quran, your arguments and speech goes from intellectual and intelligent to downright absurd.
I should be having conversations with people who actually ponder.
Peace out. Have a nice life.
@ jamal
I think your a good guy. honestly I do. But your trying to put your interpretation pon the hadith. It doesnt say anything about Jews or Christians maing or insulting anyone.
And can you provide the evidence that this is a concept in Islam? Saying something and proving it are two entirely different things.
Quote "The hadiths could also mean sins which the Jews and Christians innovated and initiated, because whoever starts a bad thing will bear a burden of sin like that of each person who does that thing. If there was a Jew or Christian back in the day who caused a Muslim to sin, and the Muslim did so unknowingly, the sin will be placed on the Jew or Christian culpable. Or it could mean that if a Christian insulted a Muslim repeatedly, and did not ask for the person’s forgiveness, then on the Day of Judgement God will give the Muslim some good deeds of the Christian and place bad deeds of the Muslim on the Christian. That is a concept in Islam. If somebody is wronged and justice does not take place in this world, then justice will be served in the Hereafter.
This is also taking the burden of personal responsability and placing it on someone else. So how do you know the Jew or Christian didnt know it was a sin? So the ignorance of the Muslims is the fault of another?
Thats not taking personal responsability. Have you ever heard the saying ignorance of the law is no excuse. So if you commit a crime and say, oh judge I didnt know it was a crime, so give my accomplice my jail time.
Please Jamal your trying so hard to rationalize the irrational.
Quote "Hadiths are sayings of the Prophet, there are thousands, and if some appear to conflict with a Quranic doctrine then we are free to interpret it in a way that still makes sense but could be a bit unusual."
I know. Thts what Muslims always do. They reinterpret everything to conform to their ideals instead of following what it actually says.
I will respond again later. I have to work.
Hilarious.
Like I always say, Muslims never fail to remind us about their prophets inability to read.
Jamal,
I'm glad to see you are going to try and address the issue at hand after all it is you who brought it up.
you said,
So every person of the OT was a sinner. How can a sinner be a saint? Does saint mean that they followed the laws perfectly?
I say,
I answered this in my very first response to you here it is again from the prophet Isaiah
quote;
But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(Isaiah 53:5-6)
end quote:
Did you get that. God's children are accepted because the debt of disobedience is payed by the one who had perfect obedience (verse 9 and 11).
who will bear your sin Jamil?
you said:
You say the saints have their sins expiated. I say that cannot be if everybody is a sinner.
I say,
Everyone except the sinless lamb of God is a sinner. Muslims believe that Christ was virgin born but they do not understand the reason it had to be that way.
you say,
That would mean that people who divorce their wives for a reason other than adultery are relaxes a commandment. Therefore, according the passage above, they will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
I say,
Now you are starting to get it.
Christians are not lawless. In fact we have a law much stricter than the law of Moses.
We keep the law of Christ out of love for God because it is written on our hearts and not because we are trying to earn our way to heaven with our imperfect obedience .
peace
Jamal,
I understand the urge to spew venom about polytheism and immorality when you are backed into a comer and leave with out taking the time to actually consider the arguments of others.
Please don't give in to that urge.
you said,
I should be having conversations with people who actually ponder.
I say,
I promise that once you explain how a Holy and Just God can allow sin to go unpunished. I will take the time to consider each of your arguments.
I also promise to spend all the time you need in explaining how your straw-man portrayal of what Christians believe is grossly mistaken
But you can't ask others to ponder what you have to say when you are unwilling to do the same for them.
Peace
@ Jamal
1. Be specific and tell me which translations that I provided I added words to. And then i will refute your lies and slander.
2. Prove that the link you provided refutes the link i provided. saying it refutes it does not refute it. provide the evidence for your assertion.
3. There is no reason to assume that the word Pharaoh was not known until hieroglyph images could be interpreted. LOL! Your basing your absurd reasoning on the incorrect assumption that nobody knew of the word Pharaoh. Its laughable.
4. Quote "
Your entire religion is based on the assertion that the Resurrection is what best fits history" There are secualr historians who testified to the fact that Jesus was crucified. Yes we believe he was ressurected. According to sura 4:157 Allah lied and deceived the people into thinking Jesus died and the result was the creation of a false religion known as Christianity. So your entire denial of Christ is based on a lie Allah committed. Now did Allah want to create Christianity or did he not know the result of his deception would be Christianity?
5. in Mohameds time they told stories. Mohamed traveled. He heard all sorts of stories and was in the epicenter of the Abrahamic religions and was born of pagans himself. He also used scribes in order to fabricate and embellish much of what he said. Mecca was not only Pagan. There were Jews and Christians there. In fact, after studying the available Islamic source material on the subject, there was certainly a Christian influence in Mecca's culture. Interestingly, the Quran records this charge of borrowing leveled against Muhammad by his contemporaries:
Quran 25:5
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
Quran 16:103-104
"We know indeed that they say "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notable foreign while this is Arabic pure and clear. Those who believe not in the Signs of Allah, Allah will not guide them and theirs will be a grievous Penalty."
There are many quotes in the Quran that come from New Testament Apocrypha.
Sura 19 - "Mary", verses 28 - 33
Carrying the child, she came to her people, who said to her: 'Mary, this is indeed a strange thing! Sister of Aaron, your father was never a whore-monger, nor was your mother a harlot.'
She made a sign to them, pointing to the child. But they replied: 'How can we speak with a babe in the cradle?'
Whereupon he spoke and said: 'I am the servant of God. He has given me the Book and ordained me a prophet. His blessing is upon me wherever I go, and He has exhorted me to be steadfast in prayer and to give alms as long as I shall live. He has exhorted me to honor my mother and has purged me of vanity and wickedness. Blessed was I on the day I was born, and blessed I shall be on the day of my death and on the day I shall be raised to life.'
The source of this story is "The Arabic Infancy Gospel". There exists a whole collection of stories and fables classified as "Infancy Gospels". Later ones were based upon earlier ones. The Arabic Infancy Gospel is based upon earlier Infancy Gospels were created from the second century onward.
One scholar - J. K. Elliot writes regarding the dating of the Arabic Infancy Gospel, in "The Apocryphal New Testament", page 100:
"This is another collection of material that has made use of the Protevangelium of James (PJ) and Infancy Thomas. Chapters 1 - 10 are based up PJ, and 36-55 shows many similarities with Thomas... In between (i.e. chapters 11-35) the author has drawn on a large collection of fantasies, the origin of which is likely to be Egyptian.
"...the Arabic is likely to go back to a Syrian archetype, which could be of he fifth - sixth century."
6. The science in the Quran is rudimentary at best and completely false at its worst. It borrows from what was at believed at the time. Like the flat earth, the sun and moon orbit the earth etc. And much of it was borrowed from the Greeks.
http://debunkingquranicscience.blogspot.com/2010/01/did-quranic-authors-borrow-information.html
7. These threats become all the more intriguing in light of the fact that, according to Muslim sources, Muhammad did change the message of the Quran due to the suggestions of one of his scribes who then apostatized as a result of it! In fact, according to Muslim sources, the following text:
Who is more wicked than the man who invents a falsehood about God, or says: “This was revealed to me”, when nothing was revealed to him? Or the man who says, “I can reveal the like of what God has revealed”? S. 6:93 N.J. Dawood
Was “revealed” in reference to this event:
(Who is guilty) who is more tyrannical and more daring (of more wrong than he who forgeth a lie against Allah, or saith) Allah did not reveal anything, this is Malik Ibn al-Sayf, or him who says: (I am inspired) with a Scripture, (when he is not inspired in aught) with any Scripture, this is Musaylimah, the liar; (and who saith: I will reveal the like of that which Allah hath revealed) I will say the like of what Muhammad (pbuh) is saying: this is 'Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. (If thou couldst see) O Muhammad, (when the wrong-doers) the idolaters and the hypocrites, on the Day of Badr (reach the pangs of death and the angels stretch their hands out) to take out their souls, (saying: Deliver up your souls) your spirits. (This day) the Day of Badr, as it is said it is the Day of Judgement (ye are awarded doom of degradation) a severe doom (for that ye spake concerning Allah other than the Truth, and scorned) you thought yourselves too great to believe in Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an, (His portents) Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an. (Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs; bold, italic and underline emphasis ours)
This same commentary asserts that Q. 16:106:
Whoever disbelieved in Allah after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a great torment. Hilali-Khan
Also refers to Ibn Abi Sarh’s apostasy:
(Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief) in Him, deserves Allah's wrath (save him who is forced thereto) except the person who is coerced into disbelief (and whose heart is still content with Faith). This verse was revealed about 'Ammar Ibn Yasir (but whoso findeth ease in disbelief) whosoever utters words of disbelief willingly: (On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom) the most awful torment in this worldly life. This verse was revealed about ‘Abdullah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh. (Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs;
8. Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
Abdullah ibn AbuSarh used to write (the revelation) for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). Satan made him slip, and he joined the infidels. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) commanded to kill him on the day of Conquest (of Mecca). Uthman ibn Affan sought protection for him. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) gave him protection. Book 38, Number 4345)
9. There is NO maybe about it. I provided the evidence.
10. So you say that God is perverted and cannot do as he chooses? Well My God can. He is not limited in power. Your the arrogant one to believe that the finite can grasp and comprehend the infinite. And your Allah entered fire and a bush. So to say that Allah cannot enter his creation is to undermine the Quran.
Allah called to Moses from a bush on the right side of the valley and said, “O Musa, surely I am Allah, the Lord of the worlds. Cast down your staff” (28:30-31).
* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ فَلَمَّآ أَتَاهَا نُودِيَ مِن شَاطِىءِ ٱلْوَادِي ٱلأَيْمَنِ فِي ٱلْبُقْعَةِ ٱلْمُبَارَكَةِ مِنَ ٱلشَّجَرَةِ أَن يٰمُوسَىٰ إِنِّيۤ أَنَا ٱللَّهُ رَبُّ ٱلْعَالَمِينَ }
And when he reached it, a call came from the right bank, [the right] side, of the valley, to Moses, at the blessed spot, [blessed] for Moses, because of his hearing God’s speech therein, from the tree (mina’l-shajarati substitutes for min shāti’i, ‘from the [right] bank’, and the preposition [min, ‘from’] has been repeated because it [the tree] grows there) — the tree was a jujube, a bramble, or a boxthorn — [saying] that (an here is explicative, and not in its softened form) ‘O Moses! Indeed I am God, the Lord of the Worlds’.
When Moses approached the burning bush he heard a voice say, “Blessed is whoever is in the fire and whatever is around it and glorified be Allah, the Lord of the worlds. O Moses! Lo! It is I, Allah, the mighty, the wise. Throw down your staff” (27:7-10)
11. This is what happens when you refute Muslims. They go on a tantrum. Now cling to your lies and logical fallacies.
You have been refuted and exposed. You live a lie, and you spew lies!
12. Hey Jamal your wrong about the Hieroglyphs as well. Hieroglyphs dominated the landscape of the Egyptian civilisation. These elaborate symbols were ideal for inscriptions on the walls of majestic temples and monuments, and indeed the Greek word hieroglyphica means 'sacred carvings', but they were too fussy for day-to-day scribbling, so other scripts were evolved in Egypt in parallel. These were the 'hieratic' and 'demotic' scripts, which can crudely be thought of as merely different fonts of the hieroglyphic alphabet.
The rise of Christianity was responsible for the extinction of Egyptian scripts...
Then, towards the end of the fourth century AD, within a generation, the Egyptian scripts vanished. The last datable examples of ancient Egyptian writing are found on the island of Philae, where a hieroglyphic temple inscription was carved in AD 394 and where a piece of demotic graffiti has been dated to 450 AD. The ancient scripts were replaced with 'Coptic', a script consisting of 24 letters from the Greek alphabet supplemented by six demotic characters used for Egyptian sounds not expressed in Greek. The ancient Egyptian language continued to be spoken, and evolved into what became known as the Coptic language, but in due course both the Coptic language and script were displaced by the spread of Arabic in the 11th century. The final linguistic link to Egypt's ancient kingdoms was then broken, and the knowledge needed to read the history of the pharaohs was lost.
So it wasnt lost till much later then Mohameds fabricated Quran. And then it was deciphered again.
Every single thing you and your indoctrinators have said is false and a logical fallacy.
Sorry Charlie!
Oh how I love my "triune" God.
It beats the perverted allah who gambled his reputation on a so called " prophet" who could not even identify him during his first encounter in the cave.
No thank you dear polygamist I will stay with my Yahweh, the true God of the universe.
And these muslims wanna sell us allah who conveniently revealed himself ONLY to muhammed, a "prophet" with absolutely no credibility.
The foundation of islam is based on the WORD of ONE man, who claims revelations from his god.
Islam would never stand up in a court with muhammed as its strongest witness. The case would be dismissed with contempt.
Now why would a sane person risk eternity by investing in islam with such a weak foundation, beats me.
Now you know why I am a christian and proudly so..
In Christ, for Christ, by Christ
murtadd.wordpress.com
My apologies, this comment is a bit off topic. I cross path yesterday with a 20 year old who lied straight to my face instead of facing his shame and resolving his issue in a manly manner. The ability to recognize shame and to transform it into a force for good is an integral part of becoming a mature individual, and this incident prompted me to reflect on what social conditions make it difficult if not impossible for people to process shame.
Suppose that a man is unjustly or erroneously condemned to have a hand cut off for stealing under Sharia, there is no way to undo his sentence, he has been subjected to a capital punishment. As I see it this creates a paradox that Christian have had to grapple a long time ago.
Either Sharia has imposed an irreparable harm to an innocent man under Allah's name, therefore it is morally deficient because an innocent man takes the blame for someone who is rewarded; or the unjustly condemned man must accept is misfortune as "Allah's Will" and a greater spiritual good but then why is his accuser not held to the same moral standard and not rebuked for not turning the other cheek like Christ told his followers to do?
A resolution of this paradox is that the judge was awarded a prerogative of God and that he misused it, that is the judge has become an idol for a religion that punishes idolatry by death.
The paradox is not uniquely Islamic, it occurred for instance in Nazie territories where not collaborating suffered whether they were black Africans, Roma, Jehovah Witnesses, Jews or plain Germains trying to follow their conscience; and it still occurs in dictatorships today.
Going back to my previous encounter, it is little wonder than people who live under a merciless legal system have difficulty dealing with shame, and that in itself harms them.
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