Tuesday, May 15, 2012

Upcoming Debate!

On May 27th at 6:00pm PST I will be debating Ijaz Ahmad (aka “CallingChristians”). My opponent turned down the invitation to do it on ABN, so it will take place in the Answering Christianity room on Paltalk.  As some of you know and others might suspect, the Muslim rooms on PT (not to mention some other Muslim forums) do not have a sterling reputation for conducting things on the up and up, and that is putting it mildly. However, having secured the agreement of a Muslim who has a pretty good track record as judged by our past interactions, a Muslim who has agreed to play a principal role in how the debate is conducted, I have agreed to do it in that forum. If I am red-dotted (i.e. muted) or if the debate is called because they don’t like what I am saying, so be it. Worse happens when Christians proclaim the Word of Christ in Muslim lands (and sometimes even in America).

For those who don't use Paltalk or for whatever reason are not able to listen to the debate live but are still interested in hearing it, it will be recorded and Lord willing I will eventually put it on the blog.


We will be debating the following proposition: The Old Testament Teaches That the Angel of the Lord is a Distinct Divine Person in the Godhead.

I will be arguing in the affirmative. Ijaz will represent the negative.

Although our debate will be on what the Old Testament teaches in this regard, the relevance of this to what is taught in the New Testament is huge. As E. W. Hengstenberg once said somewhere: what the Old Testament teaches on this issue is the proemium of what we find said about Jesus in the Gospels and to what has been believed, taught and confessed in the church regarding Jesus throughout the ages.

With regard to Christ, the law and the prophets and the evangelists have proclaimed that He was born of a virgin, that He suffered upon a beam of wood, and that He appeared from the dead; that He also ascended to the heavens, and was glorified by the Father, and is the Eternal King; that He is the perfect Intelligence, the Word of God, who was begotten before the light; that He was the Founder of the universe, along with it (light), and the Maker of man; that He is All in all: Patriarch among the patriarchs; Law in the laws; Chief Priest among priests; Ruler among kings; the Prophet among prophets; the Angel among angels; the Man among men; Son in the Father; God in God; King to all eternity. For it is He who sailed [in the ark] along with Noah, and who guided Abraham; who was bound along with Isaac, and was a Wanderer with Jacob; the Shepherd of those who are saved, and the Bridegroom of the Church; the Chief also of the cherubim, the Prince of the angelic powers; God of God; Son of the Father; Jesus Christ; King for ever and ever. Amen.” (Irenaeus, Fragments, LIII)

30 comments:

mkaimo said...

We will be praying for you, Anthony! May our Lord set a hedge of protection around you and your family even as you prepare for this debate, in Jesus' name

kiwimac said...

Awesome! Good luck and God Bless you.

Zack_Tiang said...

May the stubborn, hard heart of stone of Ijaz Ahmad and all the other Muslims be soften and the seeds of truth be sown in fertile soil to bear a good harvest for the Lord.

In the name of Jesus.

May the perfect Spirit manifest through you, Anthony.

Royal Son said...

I am looking forward to this. Brother Anthony, may the Lord grant you a clear utterance and a compelling word.
Grace, peace, joy and love in the Holy Spirit to you and your family.

Radical Moderate said...

This going to be great

Derek Adams said...

Hey Anthony PM me the time details.

Also can you get them to lift my ban "Answering Abraham" for this debate.

I honestly don't know why you agreed to debate in that room, can't you create a neutral room for the purposes of debate? There is no way they will be neutral. Even if they don't red dot you, they will let there admins offering rebuttal in text (while you are speaking) etc. They can never be neutral.

-Dk

Derek Adams said...

Ah my bad, just saw the time details are on the post.

Now that you got your debate, my turn.

SAMATAR, I am calling you out to hold to your word and agree to debate me in MAY like we previously agreed.

So either leave your e-mail, or email me.

-Derek Adams

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey Anthony,

This is great news. The Angel of Yahweh is a subject that is near and dear to my heart.

It is one of the biggest blind spots with Unitarians in general and Muslims in particular. This will be a great opportunity for you to do some elementary education.

The evidence on your side is overwhelming and irrefutable. I can’t wait till the exchange is posted here


Peace

aaron said...

What a perfect waste of time, Its Conning Christians deceptiveness on choosing a battle ground where he controls the environment like the muting. I brand him A COWARD,If he has a sense of decency he would debate on neutral ground.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Derek Adams

I had initially planned for May but it might take me a bit longer to fully prepare for our discussion. I will contact you as soon as I am prepared. I will also tell you beforehand the arguments I will be using so you will have time to prepare your rebuttal.

Sam said...

I consider Anthony Rogers to be our best apologist who has been blessed with one of the sharpest minds I have ever seen from any apologist, all due to the sovereign grace of our risen and glorious Lord Jesus. If the Muslims don't do anything dirty this debate will be annihilation for Islam.

cheryl_maree said...

I can't wait David, I deleted Pal Talk because all they do on there is red dot you, but I will download just for this!!

Search 4 Truth said...

I wouldnt trust them for one single second. I have gone there and as soon as I present evidence from any Islamic source, be it the Quran. Hadith, or tafsirs they dot me and then go on to misrepresent Biblical teachings and slander me for presenting evidence. They even end up slandering their Islamic doctrine in order to defend their fairy tale version of Islam that exists no where in history or doctrine. I have rarely lasted past 1 minute of speach before i am red dotted. As soon as I quote Islamic doctrine that refutes them I am gone!

But then again they are to frightened to debate Islam! So maybe it will go through! If the topic had anything to do with Mohamed or Islamic doctrine David wouldnt last very long! Muslims dont like true Islam! They like their reinterpretations.

Search 4 Truth said...

Oh its Anthony. Sorry I thought it was posted by David! Good luck and God bless. But I have confidence in you. Just be prepared for all of his misrepresentations and redefining of words. he loves to use deceptions and logical fallacies. Oh wait, all Muslims do that.

kenmehms said...

Will be praying for you bro Anthony. Now i know why my cousin who is a muslim is desperate to get me to debate him on paltalk. It all makes sense now. Our precious Lord Jesus be with you and all the answering muslims crew.

minoria said...

I have never been to Palktalk but from the comments one gets muted almost as soon as one opens one mouth.

What kind of a discussion forum is that?

Almost anything is possible,like regarding Acharya/Miss Murdock(atheist,ex-Christian).Very popular.

In "Did Jesus Exist?" Ehrman devotes 1 or 2 pages to her idea of Christ as a myth and says her scholarship is no good.

Michael Licona wrote an article on why she was 100% wrong and Acharya
responed with insults:

http://www.answeringinfidels.com/answering-skeptics/answering-acharya-s/

The case of Robert Price(atheist,ex-Christian,who says Jesus never existed

He first began saying her scholarship was no good regarding her book "The Christ Conspiracy",then he changed his mind,regarding her book "Suns of God;Krsihna,Buddha and Christ Unveiled" as you can see here:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/price-sog-review.html

What happened?The rumor is that Price now has a crush on her.Ehrman dedicates a chapter in his new book saying why he thinks Price is wrong.

For those who want to read about the Richard Carrier-Ehrman debate

Carrier also says Jesus never existed,Ehrman dedicated a chapter to refuting him,but says he is one smart fellow, and here is the battle of words:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/1117

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/1151

minoria said...

Also check out this article

"Was Samson a Terrorist,as Muslim Shabir Ally says?"

http://www.antisharia.com/2012/05/15/was-samson-a-terroristas-muslim-shabir-ally-says/

Baron Eddie said...

A friend of mine uses PT and I tried it and I really did not like it ...

I just wait for the recorded file

The other thing, why this topic was chosen?

How about stolen Jesus' sayings from the Bible by Mohammed without referring to the source!

Also from the Old Testament! ...

You don't need luck brother Anthony because the love of God in you ...

I think the debate should be allowing you to say your comments without red dotting otherwise that is not a debate ...

There should be time limit on every response for both sides ...

"The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want."

Derek Adams said...

Samatar you can contact me through my website when you're ready. Or look on the post where I left you the email.

I will also send you a list of my arguments before the debate to be fair and neutral.

I believe we should limit our arguments to 3-5 arguments.

Then it will be a much better interaction.

-Dk

minoria said...

Hi,I was thinking about the mythicist case.

Carrier,Price,Acharya and Doherty have nothing.

The Josephus text

1.The earliest copies of Josephus are 1000 years after he wrote.

2.Doherty says there is an interpolation.Price and Carrier know the technicalities.

3.There is half a page in Josephus about the death of a certain James.

The technicalities

Then Jews had no family name so a man was called :

1.X son of Y

2.Or X the soldier,farmer,priest,etc.

3.Or X the one spoke to Ceaser,or argued with the High Priest,etc,some kind of description.

4.Or X of Rome,of Athens,of Nazareth

Carrier,Price,Doherty know this.


About the phrase:"James,brother of Jesus,the one called the Christ

Josephus talks of the death of "James,the brother of Jesus,the one called the Messiah".Doherty says "brother of Jesus,the one called..." is an interpolation.

First reason he is wrong

1.If you just have James then the text becomes meaningless.James,better said JACOB/Jacobos in the text,and in Greek,the book is in Greek was a very common Jewish name.

Carrier,Price,Doherty know this.Josephus would have given some description,otherwise the text becomes meaningless.It is like me saying "Charles was killed,etc(with half a page about how he was killed) yet giving no clue who exactly Charles was.

Like:"James,the leader of a religious group" or "James,known leader in Jerusalem".

Carrier,Price know a really convincing reason would have to be given for why Josephus would NOT give a description of what James was...they have none.

Second Reason

It is the part "the one called the Messiah".It is such a logical way for a non-Christian like Josephus to describe Jesus that Doherty,Price,Carrier can't argue it goes agaisnt what Josephus would have written.

Also "brother of Jesus" means this "Jesus/Joshua Messiah" was a well-known man,other wise Josephus would have written "James son of Joseph of nazareth/James son of Joseph the religious leader"

That also shows a certain Joshua thought of being the Messiah existed.

Third reason

Then it was illegal for the jews to put somebody to death yet the High Priest is so angery with that James he breaks the law,it is not a minor thing he did.

Also the text says at leawt some people thought that James was a good man and complained to the Romans,the High Priest was deposed.

It is obvious Josephus had in mind a James who had considerable standing,which coincides with James,leader of the church in Jerusalem.

When you think about it it makes you see Carrier,Doherty,Price are not being impartial,they have become obsessed with showing Jesus is a myth.

Paul and James

In Galatians 1:19 Paul says he met none of the apostles except James,the brother of the Lord,meaning Jesus.When he says "lord" Paul always means "God" or "Jesus" in his writings.

Doherty wants us to believe it is an interpolation also.

Radical Moderate said...

@Anthony Rogers and everyone else.
You may or may not know this but I have had some interaction with the young CallingChristians from now on known as SlanderingChristians and I would like to share with you my observations.

Anthony you must be careful with him. SlanderingChristians is overly sensitive and I would even say Hyper sensitive just like Paul Williams...if you know what I mean. He once said that wearing a beard protects him from homosexuals.

We have all seen how he rants and raves and insults left and right. How he takes great satisfaction in boasting that he is 20 years old, only to then cry “why are you picking on me I’m only 20 years old”. He often makes up offenses and persecution when none exist, do to his hypersensitivity.

Case in point.
I was in a conversation with him discussing if he was going to debate you on ABN. He responded no because ABN would require him to show his face. I asked him why and his response “I live in a country of radical evangelicals, I'm not going to risk my life or my family's security.”. After laughing at him as I’m sure all of you are doing right now I continued to press the matter and he responded: “You can life, but you have no empathy, you're a Christian : *laugh the day I am stabbed for speaking out”

He then went completely off the reservation comparing himself to Christ and me to either Jews or Pontius Pilot.
“just as the Jews told Pontius. : my blood will be on you and your children forever and ever.”

Talk about a Drama QUEEN. Now I don’t know why his blood would be on my hands, or that of my “children forever and ever “, if he got stabbed. But in his overly sensitive and fragile emotional state I guess this made sense to him.

I then agreed with him and I wrote… “: I have no doubt you will be stabbed some day “.

He continued being a Drama QUEEN comparing himself to Christ: “Good to see you laugh at Jesus before the Sanhedrin.”

I then explained: “If you get stabbed it will because of who you are, a LIAR, , A person who runs his mouth, so in other words you will be stabbed not becasue your a muslim but becasue your a ass” . (a biblical [and Qur'anic] term)

I then give the young man good advice on HOW NOT TO GET STABBED.
“so quit being a ass and maybe you wont get stabbed”

He then takes this, and posts a small portion of our conversation and concludes that
“He’s finally showing his true colours. Wishing death and suffering for me, because I disagree with his religion of Christianity. A more than 30 year old man, living in an entirely different country to me, wishing death on a 20 year old because I disagree with him on his religion.”

In my next encounter with him the other night where I called him to task for slandering me. Instead of showing me where I ever said anything close to what he accused me of, he instead started quoting various verses from JOB and Isaiah about quarreling over words.

I then repeated my reasons for agreeing with him that he may one day be stabbed because he is as the bible says an ASS.

He then said that I was saying hateful, hurtful things about him. He then tempted me to sin by challanging me to swear by the Holy Spirit that I have never said anything bad about him. Something strange in the light of his various insults and slanders against myself and others.

Regardless if I have said bad things about him or not has nothing to do with the fact that I never “wished death and suffering” on this young man even if he thinks of himself and emotionally acts like a child 8 years younger than his age.

So Anthony, be wearing, I believe that this young man has the spirit of those who Christ spoke about when he said “Do not throw your pearls at swine, do not give to dogs what is sacred”.

Radical Moderate said...

@Anthony Rogers

Looks like I was to late with my observations. Look at his advertisement for the debate. (Bold Added By Me)

Does, “The Old Testament Teaches That the Angel of the Lord is a Distinct Divine Person in the Godhead“? Leading Christian Apologist and popular Islamophobe author, Anthony Rogers of the Answering Muslims blog and Answering Islam website, has agreed to a debate on the 27th of May. This promises to be an exciting and thrilling discourse.

Patrik said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-85CJ1fWqT0&feature=related

aaron said...

@ radical moderate
best way to deal with theses people is fully document it all and have a blog about it. very useful tool to discredit them to the point where even their own people will laugh at them

Anthony Rogers said...

I am happy to see some of you are interested in the topic, and thanks to those of you who said you would pray for the debate.

Anthony Rogers said...

Radical,

Thanks for making sure I knew the way in which Ijaz has decided to announce the debate and that he has already stooped to calling me a name: i.e. "popular islamophobe author." Calling me "popular" is just plain low. :)

Anthony Rogers said...

Derek, I can give it a try, but I don't have any pull in that room. Besides, a Christian asking Muslims to lift the ban on an atheist/agnostic is a real long shot. You know what I mean? Now if I could get a Jewish person to go and ask with me, then maybe that would be enough to persuade them. ;)

Radical Moderate said...

aaron said...
@ radical moderate
best way to deal with theses people is fully document it all and have a blog about it. very useful tool to discredit them to the point where even their own people will laugh at them


Good advice but I really don't have the time or energy to document all of SlanderingChristians foolishness and stupidity.

Besides no one reads his blog anyway and the few that do are like him and are just as repulsive.

Radical Moderate said...

@Anthony Rogers

He also called you famous too lol

Truth Alone Triumphs said...

Ijaz is quite deceptive and sometimes twists the things to make the issue appear in favor of him.....

He totally follows the instinct of his deity (Surah 3:54)....

Brother Rogers may therefore should be careful and alert thereby not allowing Ijaz to utilize his tricks....