Sunday, March 25, 2012

Who Can Bear Our Burdens?

For those who couldn't watch our last show live:



Here are some of the sources relevant to the program:

I. NO BEARER OF BURDEN SHALL BEAR ANOTHER’S BURDEN

Qur’an 6:164—Say, “Shall I seek a Lord, other than Allah while He is the Lord of all things?” And no soul earns evil but only against itself; nor does any bearer of burden bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord will be your return, and He will inform you of that wherein you used to differ.

Qur’an 17:13-15—And We have fastened every man's deeds to his neck, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall bring out for him a book which he will find wide open. (It will be said to him): “Read your book. You yourself are sufficient as a reckoner against you this Day.” Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his own self. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).

Qur’an 35:18—And no bearer of burdens shall bear another's burden, and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted even though he be near of kin.

Qur’an 39:7—If you disbelieve, then verily, Allah is not in need of you, He likes not disbelief for His slaves. And if you are grateful (by being believers), He is pleased therewith for you. No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you what you used to do. Verily, He is the All-Knower of that which is in (men's) breasts.

Qur’an 53:33-42—Have you then seen him who turns his back? And gives a little and (then) withholds. Has he the knowledge of the unseen so that he can see? Or, has he not been informed of what is in the scriptures of Musa? And (of) Ibrahim who fulfilled (the commandments): That no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another - And that man shall have nothing but what he strives for - And that his striving shall soon be seen - Then shall he be rewarded for it with the fullest reward - And that to your Lord is the goal . . . ?

II. SOME BURDEN BEARERS WILL BEAR THE BURDENS OF OTHERS

Qur’an 16:22-25—Your God is one God; so (as for) those who do not believe in the hereafter, their hearts are ignorant and they are proud. Truly Allah knows what they hide and what they manifest; surely He does not love the proud. And when it is said to them, what is it that your Lord has revealed? They say: Stories of the ancients; That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear.

Qur’an 29:12-13—And those who disbelieve say to those who believe: “Follow our way and we will verily bear your sins,” never will they bear anything of their sins. Surely, they are liars. And verily, they shall bear their own loads, and other loads besides their own, and verily, they shall be questioned on the Day of Resurrection about that which they used to fabricate.

III. CHRISTIANS AND JEWS WILL BEAR THE BURDENS OF MUSLIMS

Sahih Muslim 6665—Abu Musa reported that Allah's Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.

Sahih Muslim 6666—Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.

Sahih Muslim 6668—Allah’s Messenger [said]: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.

110 Hadith Qudsi—Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.

And here are some articles by Sam Shamoun:

"Qur'an Contradiction: Who Suffers the Consequence of Sins According to the Qur'an?"

"Does the Quran Really Deny That a Person Can Bear the Sins of Another? – Part 1"

"Does the Quran Really Deny That a Person Can Bear the Sins of Another? – Part 2"

36 comments:

agrammatos said...

@OP,

Just another example that makes Islam an incoherent, irrational worldview that collapses under the weight of its own internal contradictions. It simply cannot stand up under an intense internal critique of itself as a worldview. Its various components simply do not comport well with each other, both in a general sense as well as in some of its specifics - as both the OP and other contradictions in Qur'an (e.g., contradictions b/t what Qur'an teaches about Torah and the Ingeel, and its repeated admonitions to go ask the people of the Book, and what the extant Biblical manuscripts known from before the time of Mohammed actually teach) clearly demonstrate to anyone not willing to suspend rationality during careful examination of its teachings.

To truly and deeply, not superficially, believe in Islam involves the surrender of the laws of logical (specifically, the second of what are known as the "first principles", i.e. the law of non-contradiction) by which we all innately live our lives, despite what some may otherwise claim, as well as the surrender of rationality. I, for one, am simply unwilling to do this and be both arbitrary and inconsistent (signs of a failed [logical] argument) in my belief system.

As "Ahnold's" character in the movie "Twins" stated, IIRC his precise words, when tossing a thug into an elevator, "I have no respect for those who have no respect for logic".

My two shekels.

Arno said...

Hi David,

Thanks for posting the video. We here down in South Africa have to pay quite a bit for bandwidth.

Much cheaper from 00:00am to 00:05am, so we download at night rather than view in normal hours.

Thanks,
Arno

goethechosemercy said...

Islam takes scapegoating to a whole new level.
No one does it better.
Muslims relish the status of the other to exploit, but refuse to take responsibility for what they do to those they call "other."
Cowards.

Kangaroo said...

@agrammatos Learn from the proper sources and scholars, not hate mongering bigots that deceive themselves and others about Islam.


For a full refutation of all of this, visit:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/suffer_for_sin.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/who-suffers-the-consequence-of-sins/

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_william_lane_craig_s_divine_insurance_policy_analogy


Apparently the bigots have run out of new things to attack Islam with. Old refutations to centuries old allegations ^^

Kangaroo said...

It's funny how people have no education in Islamic Hadith and Quran and confuse themselves when then see "contradictory" things and confuse others.

cheryl_maree said...

Thank You david for posting this one!!!!

gabriella oak said...

Is kangeroo Nadir Ahmed ?


Anyway, don't these verses and hadiths simply mean that no MUSLIM will bear another's burden ?
Seems like standard Islam to me. No ' equal opportunities ' here folks. :)

@ Arno,
Nice to see a South African here,I went to school in Durban and Capetown. Where are you from, if you don't mind me asking ?

agrammatos said...

@Roo
Qur'an agrees with you that it is always wise to learn from those who know. It is also true that there are none so blind as those who will not see. Qur'an mentions multiple times to go ask the people of the Book. Yet Mohammed failed to follow his own advice. Had he done so, he would not have made errors in what some of the beliefs of Christians living at the time actually believed. The incoherency and irrationality of Islam is on display as both what Qur'an states about several Christian doctrines and what the New Testament teaches are incorrect in at least three cases. It is this internal contradiction in Islam that is in large measure its downfall. How can Mohammed in Qur'an say to go ask the people of the Book when Islam does not believe what the Book existing at his time clearly stated?

Mohammed mentions in Qur'an to go ask the people of the Book and they will tell you. We have complete greek manuscripts of the New Testament dating from 200 to 300 years before Mohammed. They teach the same doctrines about Christ, His Deity, His crucifixion, and His resurrection as do our modern New Testaments teach. Qur'an and Islam now become illogical. How so?... go ask the people of the Book and they will tell you; Qur'an denies key teachings about Christ (His Deity, His death by crucifixion and His resurrection); Islamist polemicists say that the Bible we have today is corrupt; but we have manuscripts that existed from before the time of Mohammed that demonstrate that the Bible of Mohammed's day and before Mohammed's time is the same as we have today - so it is demonstrably clear with hard archaeological evidence that the Bible we have today is not corrupted. Islam and Qur'an self-destructs at this point with an internal contradiction rendering it irrational and incoherent as a worldview.

Mohammed appeared to have had a defective understanding of the Christian doctrine of the triune God (*ONE* God in three Persons; *ONE* Essence in three Persons) in Surah 5.116 ascribing, it appears the Trinity to be the Father (or Allah as far as Qur'an may be concerned - "God" in Surah 5.116), Son, and Virgin Mary as the Trinity. Clearly, the Bible never teaches this, i.e. that the Virgin Mary is part of the Trinity (Roman Catholicism may elevate Mary to too high a status but the Bible and Biblical Christianity does not - yet still honors her way short of deifying her). The Qur'an's advice to go ask the people of the Book, is good advice indeed - it seems that Mohammed failed to follow this advice himself. So, why would Qur'an have a false description (i.e., one which is not found in the "Book", viz. the Bible, Qur'an mentions that should be consulted) of the Biblical doctrine of the persons comprising the triune Godhead?

Why does Surah 19:27-28 identify Mary, the mother of Jesus, as the sister of Aaron? As you know in Arabic Mary is Miriam, just as it is in Hebrew and Aramaic. In Greek Mary is Maria (as in the New Testament), the Septuagint translates the Hebrew for Aaron and Moses' sister Miriam, by the greek Maria. It is simple to see how Mohammed in Qur'an makes this mistake due to the similarity of names in Arabic, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Another time the people of the Book should have been consulted first.

Lastly, if Allah transcends all things, including language, how can you know him or anything about him? It is self-refuting to say that Qur'an explains him, since language is being used to describe him and language can never describe Allah since he transcends all things including description which is accomplished via language (spoken or written, and even thought) and nothing is like him or can be compared to him. Biblical Christianity, when properly understood, does in fact teach tawhid. In Islam you can logically never know this (i.e., tawhid) since Allah transcends all description.

sincerely yours because of HIM,
agrammatos

agrammatos said...

@Roo,

The rebuttal of Bill Craig's argument you referenced is flawed. At the very least it commits a category error in that it confuses and fails to distinguish criminal aspects of the illustration with civil aspects of the illustration. Additionally, it introduces a red herring in the form of "premiums" which are not referred to in Craig's analogy. A rebuttal should respond to what has been stated, not what has not been stated. Responding to what has not been stated is not a rebuttal; it is an assumption, or in legal parlance "assuming facts not in evidence".

Logic is apparently not the strong suit of that particular rebuttal. IMO, for the reasons stated it fails miserably as a rebuttal.

sincerely yours because of HIM,
agrammatos

agrammatos said...

@Roo,

Federal headship is really the issue both in the Fall and in the "Atonement" as it is often termed (borrowing incorrectly, IMO, from an Old Testament term whereas ransom, redemption, reconciliation, and propitiation are more correct New Testament terms for Christ's once for all and all time substitutionary sacrifice for sin).

Sam said...

It's funny how Kangaroo thinks he can get away with linking to trash which he thinks actually provide a meaningful reply.

Here are the refutations to your garbage:

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/consequences_of_sin.htm

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/substitution.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/perverted_justice1.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/perverted_justice2.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/pulliam.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/human_sacrifice.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/morally_grotesque.htm

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/false_accusations6.html

Enjoy!

Davidsmountain .^. said...

********WATCH IT********

Right here! . . . Right now!

Hear the sword of truth, SING through the air!

Bravo . . . David & CL

BROTHERS IN ARMS

aaron said...

@kangaroo
read your sources before you copy and paste because the first one in itself the response was amusing. because he still couldn't justify how the first verse goes with the second verse.

Derek Adams said...

Kangaroo like Samatar thinks pasting a link to any random nonsense posted by Muslims is actually adequate.

Kangaroo if you would have read even your first link you would have noted the fool proved exactly what was said:


"Their responsibility or crime is twofold: (1) that they rejected Allah’s Message, and (2) that they misled others. Their Penalty will also be double. In 6:164, we are told that “no bearer of burdens can bear the burder of another”. This is against the doctrine of vicarious atonement. Every man is responsible for his own sins: but the sin of misleading others is a sin of the misleader himself, and he must suffer the penalty for that also, without relieving those misled, of their responsibility. (‘The meaning of the Holy Quran’ Abdullah Yusuf Ali, page 642, note 2048 )

So we appreciate your sources confirm the Qur'an does contain a contradiction, and even the worse crime of double jeopardy.

Arno said...

@Gabriella Oak

Yep, Islam rising and unfortunately so in SA as well.

Pretoria and Pretoria.

It's the apathetic nature of westerners that allows muslims to dominate.

Six months ago Islam was not even on my radar, and in my whole extended family nobody has a clue.

That holds for most people. Like David said, the only way we can loose this war is through ignorance and inaction.

Peace out.

Kangaroo said...

"without relieving those misled, of their responsibility"

You can't bear their burdens as a ransom. However your sins will double or triple according to the amount of people you mislead intentionally. Same with good deeds. If you leave good woriks and people benefit and do good things, they will be added to your good deeds.

Nobody will take away my sins and make me free of them so that I get to go free of punishment...

Apparently your narrow minded zombie head has caused you severe comprehension paralysis.


And read about what the Hadiths actually mean and what the scholars said about them, they are in the links.

Billy said...

roo said: “However your sins will double or triple according to the amount of people you mislead intentionally. Same with good deeds. If you leave good woriks and people benefit and do good things, they will be added to your good deeds. “

It must be Allah’s Multi-level Marketing (MLM) strategy: You are compensated not only for the sales (good and evil deeds) you generate, but also for the sales (good and evil deeds) of the people you recruit.

Kanagroo, it would appear that you just provided evidence to support David’s and Sam’s position.

Amway must have been invented by Allah.

Derek Adams said...

Kangaroo said: "Nobody will take away my sins and make me free of them so that I get to go free of punishment..."

Apparently you have a severe reading comprehension because no one is arguing one verse in the Quran advocates vicarious atonement and another verse condemns it, and therefore a contradiction exists, no that is not the argument. Hence like your Muslim counter part you are attacking a strawman.

No in fact the actual argument is the Quran says NO ONE WILL BEAR THE BURDEN OF ANOTHER, but then also teaches SOME WILL BEAR THE BURDEN of another, including every person you deceive and mislead.(and both the misleader and mislead will bear it as well, making it even WORSE than vicarious atonement, since that is double jeopardy.)

Sometimes this needs to be made black and white:

Qur’an 6:164—Say, “Shall I seek a Lord, other than Allah while He is the Lord of all things?” And no soul earns evil but only against itself; nor does any bearer of burden bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord will be your return, and He will inform you of that wherein you used to differ.

Qur’an 29:12-13—And those who disbelieve say to those who believe: “Follow our way and we will verily bear your sins,” never will they bear anything of their sins. Surely, they are liars. And verily, they shall bear their own loads, and other loads besides their own, and verily, they shall be questioned on the Day of Resurrection about that which they used to fabricate.

Qur’an 16:22-25—Your God is one God; so (as for) those who do not believe in the hereafter, their hearts are ignorant and they are proud. Truly Allah knows what they hide and what they manifest; surely He does not love the proud. And when it is said to them, what is it that your Lord has revealed? They say: Stories of the ancients; That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear.

Walter said...

It was interesting. After the introduction and explantion of the issue, I realized the only possible Muslim caller would be the/a Qur'an only guy who would be able to ignore the authentic tradition. And what do you know!

Traeh said...

So wonderfully educational. Thank you. Complexity made clear, down into detail. What a journey into the Qur'an and Hadith!

Jeff said...

I think the caller who said that Muslims "don't believe in sin" was talking about ORIGINAL sin. And about sin as a condition. I think so because he said that Allah simply forgave Adam "and that was it".

We believe, however, that in Adam, all died.

I remember long ago reading a quotation by a Muslim writer. He said, "When you Christians talk about SINS, I understand you. But when you talk about SIN, I have no idea what you are talking about."

I think all this is crucial. If the universe is the domain of the Prince of This World and all of us are in bondage to sin since the Fall, we NEED something. We need SALVATION.

But if the world is as God made it and intended it, then we really don't need a Savior and Redeemer at all.

I find this whole concept CRUCIAL when discussing Christianity with my Muslim friends.

Jeff said...

Another thing I would ask...can we set a bit of a better example to our Muslim brothers and sisters? There is so much snarkiness, so much rudeness, so much unkindness show sometimes to people like Kangaroo, who seems sincere to me.

Let's do our best to show him love. Love and do not count the cost. He has a claim on our love.

I have one Muslim friend from Oman who has become a Christian. The central thing that did it for her was LOVE. Love your enemies. God so loved the world... Faith, hope love--but the greatest of these is love. God. IS. Love.

It wasn't preaching that convinced her. Just Christians living the love of Christ. She once said to me in amazement, "How CONFIDENT Christians are!" She felt that we weren't defensive, we didn't need to attack Muslims, no matter what we KNEW in our hearts that even if Islam took over the World, Christ was Lord and had won the battle on the Cross.

Kangaroo said...

Comprehension problem hasnt been solved yet? 0.o

"We are absolutely responsible for only our own sins, which are incurred by our direct acts. Others cannot transfer their sins to us, in order to have theirs erased or even reduced. Nor can we inherit sins from our relatives or the ancestors. It is explained beautifully in 35:18 that even if we were related, we cannot carry part of their sins. But we may incur the sins of people if we cause them to be misled"

Tafsir Ibn kathir 16:25
(They will bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection, and also of the burdens of those whom they misled without knowledge.) meaning, `We decreed that they would say that, so they will carry the burden of their own sins and some of the burden of those who followed them and agreed with them,' i.e., they will be held guilty not only for going astray themselves, but also for tempting others and having them follow them

Their responsibility or crime is twofold: (1) that they rejected Allah’s Message, and (2) that they misled others. Their Penalty will also be double. In 6:164, we are told that “no bearer of burdens can bear the burder of another”. This is against the doctrine of vicarious atonement. Every man is responsible for his own sins: but the sin of misleading others is a sin of the misleader himself, and he must suffer the penalty for that also, without relieving those misled, of their responsibility. (‘The meaning of the Holy Quran’ Abdullah Yusuf Ali, page 642, note 2048 )

Kangaroo said...

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/suffer_for_sin.htm

Too blind to realize and too stubborn to admit you're wrong when you do realize. Oh well, preachers of falsehood.

aaron said...

@kangaroo
the issue with all of the above is the lack of consistency. number one you conform to one view but fail to explain why the other verses do not have the extra part in it about the double sin. if it had the extra part in it would be fine. But the book called the quran which claimed to be perfectly clear missed such a important part which causes it consistency to be questioned

which raises the issue
1) quran was not perfectly preserved
2)allah messed up when telling it to Mohammed

search 4 truth said...

@ Kangaroo

Thanks for proving that Islam is full of contradictions!

Your to blind and too stubborn to realize and accept the obvious contradictions!

search 4 truth said...

Oh and answering Christianity is the worst apologetic site you could appeal to! It is laughable which has been proven over and over!

Derek Adams said...

Kangaroo it's a funny thing, when the very sources you are quoting vindicate what I had just said.

Lets look at your first quote:

"We are absolutely responsible for only our own sins, which are incurred by our direct acts. Others cannot transfer their sins to us, in order to have theirs erased or even reduced.
Nor can we inherit sins from our relatives or the ancestors."

I had already said: "no one is arguing one verse in the Quran advocates vicarious atonement and another verse condemns it".

The rest of the quote says:

"It is explained beautifully in 35:18 that even if we were related, we cannot carry part of their sins. But we may incur the sins of people if we cause them to be misled "

Incur: to become liable or subject to through one's own action; bring or take upon oneself: to incur his displeasure.

So again: do you only bear the burden of your own sin, or do you bear the burden of others aswell?

This next verse says you will bear the burden of your own and some of burden of others:

"Tafsir Ibn kathir 16:25
(They will bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection, and also of the burdens of those whom they misled without knowledge. ) meaning, `We decreed that they would say that, so they will carry the burden of their own sins and some of the burden of those who followed them and agreed with them ,' i.e., they will be held guilty not only for going astray themselves, but also for tempting others and having them follow them

Derek Adams said...

Oh wait, here is what Ibn Kathir said on 6:164: "(No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.) thus emphasizing Allah's reckoning, decision and justice that will occur on the Day of Resurrection. The souls will only be recompensed for their deeds, good for good and evil for evil. No person shall carry the burden of another person, a fact that indicates Allah's perfect justice ."

Since you still don't get it, let me make it even more black and white...You can't have:

1) No bearer of burden will bear the burden of another.
2) Some Bearer of burden will bear the burden of another

One is false, one is true. They cannot be both be true.

What makes this worse is your supposed answer to the problem is to quote Ibn Kathir who also makes the same contradiction as the Quran.

Not only does he repeat the same contradiction as his book, he explicitly does not connect 6:164 with "vicarious atonement" alone, he condemns all forms of carrying burden, this is what makes Allahs justice supposedly perfect. Good for good, evil for evil.

So thank you for exposing your Quran and your sources that still contradict. In fact, the fact that you had to appeal to commentaries to reconcile the contradiction in the first place IS what proves the contradiction exists. By definition the Quran cannot contain a contradiction that needs to be reconciled because it can't contain two distinct sentence that conflict. So we appreciate your appeal to the commentators which prove the contradiction does exist, otherwise you wouldn't even attempt to reconcile it

Kangaroo said...

Let's look at the proper context of the verses Tafsir Ibn Abbas 6;164 then 29:12-13

6:164
{ قُلْ أَغَيْرَ ٱللَّهِ أَبْغِي رَبّاً وَهُوَ رَبُّ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَلاَ تَكْسِبُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ إِلاَّ عَلَيْهَا وَلاَ تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُمْ مَّرْجِعُكُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ }

(Say) O Muhammad: (Shall I seek another than Allah for Lord) shall I worship other than Allah, (when He is Lord of all things) when everything is from Him? (Each soul earneth) of sins (only on its own account) as a punishment, (nor doth any laden bear another's load) of sins; it is also said that this means: no soul shall be taken to task for the sins of another soul; and it is also said that this means: no soul will be tormented for committing no sin; as it is said that this means: no soul bears the burden of another soul with pleasure; it does so only when it is forced. (Then unto your Lord is your return) after you die (and He will tell you that wherein) in Religion (you differed) you contravened.

29:12-13
{ وَقَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ ٱتَّبِعُواْ سَبِيلَنَا وَلْنَحْمِلْ خَطَايَاكُمْ وَمَا هُمْ بِحَامِلِينَ مِنْ خَطَايَاهُمْ مِّن شَيْءٍ إِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ }

(Those who disbelieve) the disbelievers of Mecca, Abu Jahl and his host (say unto those who believe) 'Ali, Salman [al-Farisi] and their fellow believers: (Follow our way) our religion which consists of worshipping idols (and we verily will bear your sins (for you)) on the Day of Judgement. (They cannot bear aught of their sins) on the Day of Judgement. (Lo! they verily are liars) regarding what they claim.

{ وَلَيَحْمِلُنَّ أَثْقَالَهُمْ وَأَثْقَالاً مَّعَ أَثْقَالِهِمْ وَلَيُسْأَلُنَّ يَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَامَةِ عَمَّا كَانُواْ يَفْتَرُونَ }

(But they verily will hear their own loads) their sins on the Day of Judgement (and other loads) the sins of those they misled (beside their own) in addition to their own sins, (and they verily will be questioned on the nay of Resurrection concerning that which they invented) concerning their lie against Allah.



29:12-13talks about Abu Jahl claiming that he will bear their sins for them on the Day of Judgment so that they don't suffer the consequences of the evil acts he might commit, he says he will take responsibility, so he tells them not to worry since he will take all of their sins on himself. So the Quranic verses here tell us that NOONE CAN DO THAT BY THEIR OWN SELVES AND RELEASE THE SINNERS FROM THE PUNISHMENT. However, Abu Jahl will collect their sins as additional for misleading them because misleading others is a sin, and what they do you will collect their sins as a result.

6:164 says that same thing. You can't bear another person's sins and save them. Nor can you be punished for what others do, unless you intentionally misguide them. Bearing their burdens

aaron said...

@ kangaroo
you still don't get it do you? we are not disputing what it is saying. we are disputing the facts that the quran says two opposite view points

aaron said...

@kangaroo
you still haven;t been able to reconcile the fact about the contradicting verse about the burdens.

the quran claim its clear yet here. for the sake of the discussion i will assume that the contradictory versus all have same message. So if i claim its perfectly clear but left out stuff in it then its not perfectly clear and Allah messed up big time rofl

Derek Adams said...

Aaron is proof, that no final response is required.

Repeating the same errors and not addressing the contradiction must be some kind of tactic in Muslim Apologetics.

aaron said...

@derek
I know but just wanted to let kangaroo know that even if he had a argument that is possibly valid it will run its face into another brick wall on a book that it claimed to be clear

Billy said...

Derek: “Repeating the same errors and not addressing the contradiction must be some kind of tactic in Muslim Apologetics.”

I have also observed Muslims employing that tactic, but in this case, I doubt Kangaroo is doing this intentionally. He appears to be embarrassingly oblivious of the fact that he is providing an abundance of evidence in support of the contradictions in the Quran.

John Bob said...

Idk if anyone is still following this post, but I believe there may be a muslim "scholar" who may want to debate this topic. He likes to challange lay men to open debates on this FB page.. So I've invited him here.