Friday, February 3, 2012

Samatar Mohamed: Should Christians Get the Death Penalty?

In the comments section of a recent post, Samatar said something quite revealing. He wrote:

"Is Jesus God?"

That is one of the most important differences between Islam and christianity. The greatest crime I can possibly imagine doing is having partners beside Allah (swt). Even murder, rape, adultery do not compare to associating partners with god. And let me emphasize that I love the prophet Esa (pbuh) with all my heart and one day hope to meet such a great man in heaven, as I wish to meet Musa (pbuh), Yusuf (pbuh), Ibrahim (pbuh) and especially the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who was a mercy to mankind. But God willing, I will never elevate a human being to the level of my creator. Therefore, in short, Jesus (pbuh) is not God almighty.

I could address Samatar's absurd reasoning, i.e. "I believe calling Jesus God is a great crime; therefore, Jesus is not God." (Notice the "therefore" in his claim, which makes it seem as if he has offered some argument.)

But a more important point is Samatar's claim that believing in the Deity of Christ is a greater crime than murder or adultery. What is the penalty for murder in Islam? Death. What is the penalty for adultery? Death. But Samatar says that believing in Jesus' deity is an even greater crime. Should there be no penalty, or is Samatar finally coming to see the "wisdom" of Qur'an 9:29?

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Is Samatar now going to change his tune, claiming that the greatest criminals in the world (Christians) should be free to commit the worst crime imaginable, and to call others to do so as well?

69 comments:

minoria said...

Segment 1

Well,I know shirk/association/idolatry is the greatest sin in Islam,the unforgivable sin,if not retracted.

I certainly admire Samatar for his sincerity,more than the characters of Hector Avalos and Dan Barker,atheists and ex-Christians.

Barker even uses the race card,which is bad,since he is at least 9O% white,by sight.

Had he not said he was "native" I would never have guessed.He says he is an Indian,native-American,a Lenni Lenape (Delaware Indian) ,but if you are mostly white then you are no native American,you are a mixture,but you can't claim native,aboriginal status.

You have to be logical,but he is not.Avalos commits the sin of omission in his works,I know what I am talking about since I have read the Loftus trilogy:"Why I became an Atheist","The Christian Delusion" and now "The End of Christianity".

Loftus is sincere but for an ex-minister lacks some basic knowledge of the NT.He obviously doesn't know or doesn't realize how crucial Judaism is in understanding the NT.

I say none of the skeptics do,really.

minoria said...

Segment 2

One argument given by the skeptics

If Jesus really resurrected and his Jewish enemies knew it was true then WHY didn't they believe?

They didn't accept him and that shows the resurrection never happened.

OK,how to say it

Suppose a true,authentic document were to be unearthed,showing that YES,the Jewish enemies of Jesus did believe he had resurrected,the Romans soldiers had seen it,they told the Jewish leaders,etc.

Would a religious,Orthodox Jew TODAY accept Jesus as GOD?

Of course NOT.They would say,like 2,OOO years ago:"There is God and a DEVIL,so it was a TRICK of the Devil."

THAT is the mentality of a religious Jew THEN and NOW.Obviously such a detail never occured to the skeptics.I have never read a skeptic even be aware of the mentality of a religious Jew.

Samatar Mohamed said...

David, I do hold that shirk (associating partners with Allah (swt) is the worst sin possible. And that also encompasses not believing in Allah (swt) after you have seen the evidence, namely the Quran and sunnah. There are different forms of shirk like Shirk by Association, by negation, by humanization and others. But what did I say that was so revealing, after all, it says clearly in the Quran that the only sin that God almighty will not forgive is shirk. But anything other than that, God can forgive if he so wills it. Therefore, I have not invented this new thought that the worst sin possible is shirk. With regard to your question as to whether Christians should get the death penalty, the answer is no because my religion does not sanctify that action, and remember that surah 9:29 has a historical context, known as Asbab al-nuzul to see how the verse was applied by the prophet (pbuh). If I quote you that Jesus (pbuh) came not to bring peace, but the sword, you would tell me that it was an allegory and not to be taken literally. But when I tell you to go to the historical context to see how the prophet (pbuh) applied the verse, you decide against that.
http://muslim-responses.com/Fighting_those_who_dont_Believe_/Fighting_those_who_dont_Believe_

[al-Nisa’ 4:48]
“Verily, Allaah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allaah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin”
[al-Maa'idah 5:72]
“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers”
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith - 4.445
Narrated Abu Dhar
The Prophet said, "Gabriel said to me, 'Whoever amongst your followers die without having worshipped others besides Allah, will enter Paradise (or will not enter the (Hell) Fire)." The Prophet asked. "Even if he has committed illegal sexual intercourse or theft?" He replied, "Even then."

dstewart said...

Maybe this is a good opportunity to examine the difference in how blasphemy is treated in the Bible, and maybe why Jesus says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is so serious...

minoria said...

Segment 3

Argument 2 of the Skeptics

It is really the same as the 1st one.In Matthew 28 we have the resurrected Jesus with his followers and MATT 28:17

"When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted"

Shabir Ally even says other and better copies have it as:

"When they saw him, they worshiped him;they doubted"

It is NOT some,but even all doubted.

AGAIN

Even if ALL doubted it conforms to the mentality of a religious Jew,who might have moments of doubt,that it is a TRICK of SATAN,about a MAN who resurrected,not because the man resurrected,but because he did AFTER saying he was GOD.

minoria said...

Segment Four

ABOUT HELL

Loftus and Keith parsons accept the traditional Christian idea that the fire of hell is real,and NOt metaphorical,as is the custom today.

They point to REV 2O

Now I agree with JOEL RICHARDSON,read his book "The Islamic Antichrist" that the Antichrist and the False prophet:

Will be the Mahdi of Islam and a False Jesus,the Muslim Jesus,who will say Christianity is false.

And that GOG of Ezekiel 38-39 is the same as the ANTICHRIST

minoria said...

Segment 5

SO?

REV 2O:7-1O

Now REV 2O:7 says:

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur


where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.

They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

David Wood said...

Samatar,

You act as if I refuse to examine the historical context of Surah 9:29. Absolute nonsense. I have debated the context of Surah 9:29. Muslims like to invent some context where people were attacking Muslims. But this is simply false. Here's the historical context, according to Ibn Kathir:

Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4—Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.

In its historical context, 9:29 was a money-making scheme. And what was the justification for fighting the Jews and Christians? According to Ibn Kathir, the justification is found in the very next verse:

Qur’an 9:30—And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Ibn Kathir comments:

Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Volume 4, p. 408—Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. . . . Allah encourages the believers to fight the . . . disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. . . . As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.

So here's the difference between my claim, and your claim, Samatar. I have evidence for my claim. You totally contradict everything we know. Are you ashamed of your prophet's teachings? You agree with him that shirk is the worst possible crime, yet you refuse to obey his command to fight people because of it!

minoria said...

Segment 5

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH HELL?

REV 2O would have GOG ALSO being released after 1OOO years,the BEAST,and the False prophet also would be released,that is the idea one gets from the text.

They would be defeated and get "fire and brimstone and be tormented forever".

LOOK

The Antichrist-Mahdi and the False Jesus had ALREADY been in HELL for 1OOO years.

They had killed MORE people than HITLER,who killed 3O million,or MAO ZEDONG,who killed 7O million.

minoria said...

Segment Six

SO?

That is an argument used against Christianity by the skeptics,eternal punishment,the question is WHAT kind of punishment?

HITLER AGAIN

He wont be as bad as the Antichrist,but you see that AFTER 1OOO years being in hell the ANtichrist has NOT changed.He still allies himself with SATAN.

Would even HITLER,after being only 1 WEEK in HELL,let alone 1OOO years,still ally himself with evil?Of course not.He was crazy but he was not stupid.

SO?

All this implies that torments in hell,whether you take them literally or not,show a DIMINUTION.

Yes,I mean the Antichrist would have suffered horribly for his sins,say,for 1OO years,then the punishment would have been lessened,but he would still be in hell.

A lessening of the punishment to a degree that it was NOT SO BAD IN HELL so that the Antichrist,GOG decided to go against God again when he was released.

Derek Adams said...

Samatar STOP RUNNING

http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/01/quran-929-and-zaatari-and-samatar.html

I have already addressed your Zaatari's "link".

Derek Adams
www.AnsweringAbraham.com

minoria said...

Segment 7

THE FATE OF GOG AND HOW HE BEHAVED AFTER HIS RELEASE

It implies a DIMINUTION of punishment in hell after a while,that even for the WORST SINNER,the Antichrist,hell became so-so tolerable.

REV 14:9-11

Skeptics say the NT,the OT says nothing about any hell,is horrible because of the idea of eternal torment:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10

they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.

They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

AGAIN

Here we are talking about ordinary followers of the Antichrist,they haven't killed 7O million each.

Again,since after 1OOO years GOG,the BEAST is released and still fights God,then his time in hell after a while was certainly not that bad.Otherwise he was not human.

So,whether you take the torments to be literal or not,I think for most it would be figurative,the evidence is given,by implication,of a diminution of punishment.....even for Hitler and the Antichrist.

Derek Adams said...

Haha David, that was weird, I hadn't even seen your post, and thought of a similar reply here is what I said in the other thread after providing the exact same quote. Samatar DO NOT IGNORE:

"This is from the same Samatar who believes that Mohammed prohibits offensive Jihad.

Imagine if the people of the scripture were in their own nations going around raping, murdering and stealing, but to top it all off they commit an even worse crime of worshiping a man who is not God, a crime worthy of death or at the least severe humiliation.

In fact if rape and murder are worthy of death, then a crime worse than rape and murder (belief in partners of Allah) must warrant more than death. Perhaps torture and then death.

Yet according to Samatar, Mohammed sits back and does nothing. Criminals insulting the very dignity of God are running around freely and Mohammed sits back and says "I don't care about it, let God handle it".

And this is why folks like Samatar will always be irrational and inconsistent with their own world view. Don't say something is the worse crime ever and then pretend Mohammed was okay with allowing it when all the evidence suggests otherwise.

Samatar refuted:

http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/01/quran-929-and-zaatari-and-samatar.html"

Derek Adams said...

Seriously David can you actually make a post where Samatar is forced to adddress the link I have posted to him in like 4 or 5 threads, and he won't address it since I have refuted his pal Zatari.

It's not acceptable to pretend that 9:29 is endorsing defensive Jihad, and Samatar knows him and his fringe element are in the minority.

But I document the absurd reasoning behind those commentaries. And I document where they are right.

David Wood said...

I'm going to post a video on 9:29 in the next couple of days. When I post it, I'll link to your article for further study.

aaron said...

I would like to ask what really happened to jesus then if he did not die on the cross. i have read roman history and its army discipline and i know that muslims don;t have solid ground to stand on if i was to use it on them making their theories useless.

if allah was all merciful as muslim claim why can't he forgive shirk or is he so powerless?

Derek Adams said...

Thanks David,

I really recommend taking the time to read Samatar/Zaatari's provided commentaries aswell, as they are certainly not convincing proof that Mohammed was some kind of peaceful hippie, they contain damning evidence against him.

One of the final points in my reply was this:

"EVEN If it was a defensive war Mohammed also had the perfect opportunity to return home after the Roman army never showed up. But instead he subdues the Christians, accumulates the plunder and forces the jizya tribute tax among the people."

And after the roman army never shows up and Mohammed forces these people to pay him and live under Islam. He returns home, and what happens next?

"al-Mubarakpuri concludes:

The effect of this invasion is great as regards extending and confirming the Muslims' influence and domination on the Arabian Peninsula. It was quite obvious to everybody that no power but Islam's would live long among the Arabs. The remainders of Jahiliyin and hypocrites ? who used to conspire steadily against the Muslims and who perpetually relied on Byzantine power when they were in need of support or help ? these people lost their expectations and desires of ever reclaiming their ex-influence. Realizing that there was no way out and that they were to submit to the fait accompli, they gave up their attempts.

From that time on, hypocrites were no longer treated leniently or even gently by the Muslims. All⨠not only bade Muslims to treat them severely but He also forbade them to take their gift charities or perform prayer on their dead, or ask All⨦#146;s forgiveness for them or even visit their tombs."

Samatar is out of his depth here.

cornholio said...

I wonder if Samatar is a Turkish muslo-nazi. After all, they murdered upwards of 2 million Assyrian and Armenian Christians, for the crime of being Christian in a muslo-nazi state. A genocide the Turkish islamonazis deny to this day and have outlawed all discussion of the topic.

http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/children/07r.jpg

SGM said...

@ Samatar,

You just posted a hadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari 4.445, “Narrated Abu Dhar
The Prophet said, "Gabriel said to me, 'Whoever amongst your followers die without having worshipped others besides Allah, will enter Paradise (or will not enter the (Hell) Fire)." The Prophet asked. "Even if he has committed illegal sexual intercourse or theft?" He replied, "Even then."

I don’t want to change the subject here but this hadith is a open ticket for you Moslems to commit adultery and theft. As long as you don’t worship others besides Allah, committing adultery and stealing will not hinder you from going to paradise. These are the words of your prophet. Your prophet made sure to ask Gabriel that his adultery with his concubines and stealing the caravans will not hinder him entering paradise. So buddy, go ahead and enjoy all the adultery and stealing in the world.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Samatar,

How does your magical being determine what's evil and good?

John 8:24 said...

David and Derek, Great response!

Samatar, Do you even read the links and verify them before you post? What do you have to say in response to David and Derek? Are you going to weasel out as usual?

John 8:24 said...

Samatar said: it says clearly in the Quran that the only sin that God almighty will not forgive is shirk. But anything other than that, God can forgive if he so wills it.

Interesting. So you are saying that Allah will NOT forgive the Christian and pagan converts to Islam. Then why the heck do you Muslims do dawah? Why do you want Christians or pagans to become Muslim if Allah is not going to forgive them anyway according to Islam? Please explain.

search 4 truth said...

Samtar puts his foot in his mouth again. I find it fascinating that he is so willfully ignorant. He cant think his way out of Islams (SATAN) trap!

search 4 truth said...

Oh and Mohamed was a curse to humanity! One of he most evil people that ever existed! He was an anti Christ!

Kangaroo said...

Yes, narrow minded bigots! The way you understand the historical context is false since you cherry pick and leave out the entire 99% of the history....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqtNOF2ecLg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5oUrMKmMhQ&feature=related

At least we have legit scholars and not laymen that can explain proper Islamic history.

Good night.

Kangaroo said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6UvX-pKPM0


Lol shamed in this debate oh boy.

Derek Adams said...

Kangaroo I will look at your first two links.

As far as pasting Nadir against Wood, and saying "shamed in this debate lol".

You do realize Nadir is quoting "Sirat Rasool Allah" and the narration he is quoting is not sahih?

The shame is on you and Nadir for actually endorsing a standard of pseudo-scholarship that Islam completely rejects.

Appeal to weak sources and make yourself look like a jack *** along with Nadir, good job.

Derek Adams said...

In the first provided link Badawi says:

"Islam and the community was in great danger from within and other elements in Arabia were hostile to Muslims".

Next:

"They did today what is regarded as an act of war, they killed the messenger sent by Mohammed"

hahahahaha

Next:

"The romans in tabuk were raising army to remove Islam, this is the circumstances where defense was necessary, to stop them to subdue them"

Not only does he give no justification for any of his claims, he presents pure fiction as Islamic history.

So much for your scholar.

All his claims like Zaatari, and Samatar have already been refuted:

http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/01/quran-929-and-zaatari-and-samatar.html

Derek Adams said...

Next you appeal to Shabir Ally who quotes no sources at all.

Shame, I thought you were serious.

Derek Adams said...

Notice Kangaroo misses the most fundamental claim of this thread aswell, said nicely by David:

"Claiming that the greatest criminals in the world (Christians) should be free to commit the worst crime imaginable, and to call others to do so as well?"

So again why is your prophet allowing a sin worse than murder and rape and theft to exist and spread?

Yet isn't the stupid illogicality of this religion blow up the rational mind?

Note, Islam punishes murder, rape, and theft living under Islamic state but allows a CRIME worse than these three to exist e.g. Christians worshiping a man in Church.

So where is the consistency in your illiterate prophet and his all knowing, all wise God?

If God punishes the less severe sins, but doesn't punish the most severe sin, then your God is has indirectly admitted the less severe sins are worse in this world.

Derek Adams said...

P.s.

What kind of God thinks that shirk is worse than rape?

The problem of evil is innate in Islam.

INDONESIA-MAN said...

@Samialthar
Recently I've been debating in Muslim Debate Initiative using nickname REGULAR JOHN

But since yesterday it seems my replies can't be posted anywhere in those website. Actually this is not the first time I'm experiencing it in those website but certainly since yesterday my response can't be posted at all!!

@Sami alathar
Is this the same Sami Althar that I was debating with in Muslim debate initiatives?
(http://thedebateinitiative.com/2012/01/31/the-law-is-useless-only-jesus-can-save-us/#comments)

Yo dude, why wouldn't you and Paul Williams post my replies then? More than that why not even one of my replies to islamic debaters in various threads ever being posted since yesterday?

And Mr Paul Williams(especially) didn't have any courage to post my rebuttal toward his argument then? Let people judge whether I'm the rational nor Paul Williams is the rational one in presenting our case.

I'm sensing dishonesty here,I allow all people here to see& notice that it's not because I couldn't answer but truthfully I've already gave my reply BUT MDI site wouldn't allow my reply to be posted !

I've already sent my complaints plus rebuttals via email,but all I get is silent treatment!

Please notice this dishonesty in how MDI want to give impression as if I was incapable to answer.

It seems if you regard some christian debaters too difficult to handle then you restrict him!!

@Sami alathar If you are the same guy in MDI, I also want to ask what did ever happen to your own newly 2012 article "Quran&Historical Jesus"?

Why then MDI pulled it down after couldn't answer my rebuttal toward that article? Why don't let people read and get enlightened then?

Such shameful & cowardly action I may say..

Radical Moderate said...

@Samatar

You said that Sin is the worst possible sin even worse then Rape and Murder but then you said...

"With regard to your question as to whether Christians should get the death penalty, the answer is no because my religion does not sanctify that action"

Wow what kind of a god do you worship. He allows the wort kind of criminals to live but has rapest and murder's put to death.

Really man what kind of a god is this?

He lets Christians live if they pay allah a bribe in the Jizya.

your god I guess can be BOUGHT.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@David Wood

You said you will be posting a video of surah 9, therefore, surah 9 and the battle of tabuk will be discussed then in a detailed matter. But your main objection was why I held that shirk was the worst crime, but I am slightly confused. A christian who committed many terrible sins can enter heaven as his sins are taken care of by Jusus (pbuh). But a muslim lets say who is very pious, and does not commit any major sins will enter hell according to christians. But why is that, surely because disbelief is the greater then all of those sins, and is one sin that according to you, even Jesus (pbuh) could not take on in the cross. If disbelief was just one of those minor sins, then surely, Jesus (pbuh) could have held that sin for everyone of many faiths.

@John 8:24

"Interesting. So you are saying that Allah will NOT forgive the Christian and pagan converts to Islam. Then why the heck do you Muslims do dawah? Why do you want Christians or pagans to become Muslim if Allah is not going to forgive them anyway according to Islam? Please explain."

I mean, when someone dies in disbelief. If they repent and turn to Allah (swt), then God will forgive, but if one dies a disbeliever, God will not forgive the person, assuming they have heard about Islam in its true manner.

Kangaroo said...

Its a relationship between US and GOD. Since it is between GOD then He will deal with such affairs in the hereafter since their paganism or polytheism doesn't hurt us.

It is the GREATEST SIN.
Clear?

And shame on you for using double standards. Antiislamic bigots use whatever resource available to attack Islam, as if you care.

David Wood said...

Nice try, Samatar. Don't think I didn't notice that you switched words. In your original comment, you said that shirk is the worst imaginable crime. A crime is a breach against the laws of a government. Hence, if shirk is the worst possible crime, it should call for the worst government penalty (i.e. the death penalty). However, it seems you don't think that shirk calls for any government penalty at all, suggesting you really think it's less significant than a parking violation.

Later, when you decided to defend your claim, you changed your claim. Instead of saying that shirk is the worst possible crime, you said that shirk is the worst possible sin (i.e. a breach of God's commands). Then you pretended that this was your view.

Horribly deceptive. (Not surprising to anyone who read your description of Christianity.)

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Radical Moderate

This is my personal thought as to why shirk, which is a crime that is greater then adultery, rape, and murder can be practiced. While rape, adultery, and murder is punishable. From my deduction, an act like stealing, killing, adultery are all things that not only infringe upon God, but also harms humankind in the earth. For example, when someone steals, they harm the one they stole from. When someone kills, they obviously harm the one they killed. When someone fornicates, there is a chance of spreading diseases such as Aids, which harms humans. But when someone commits shirk, they are not necessarily harming someone else because of their belief (assuming their religion does not involve the killing of innocent people), but they are choosing to completely diregard the one who gave them a life, health, wealth, and a revelation that will guide them. For example, me saying that I believe in Allah (swt) harms no one, but me killing someone is clearly both against God and harming humans. Therefore, that sin is clearly punishable not only in the hereafter but also in this world. Therefore, as heinous as the crime is, it is one crime that Allah (swt) reveals that he will punish with an eternity of hell fire. But it does not necessarily harm mankind. Remember, this is my personal opinion. A quick question, do you hold that what I am doing (according to your faith) by not believing in your God the worst sin. If not, then name me some sins which are worse. And if you do, then can Jesus (pbuh)take on those sins, because he cannot take on a sin of i.e. Ahmed Deedat who died a muslim.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Indonesia Man

You've got the wrong person.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@David wood

By worst possible "crime", I meant the worst possible crime against God, not mankind. I was not trying to be deceptive, and I am sorry you took it that way. If I switched my words, I did it unintentionally, but I hope I clarified my position.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Kangaroo

"Its a relationship between US and GOD. Since it is between GOD then He will deal with such affairs in the hereafter since their paganism or polytheism doesn't hurt us."

That was exactly my point. Thanks for helping clarify that point.

David Wood said...

Samatar said: "By worst possible "crime", I meant the worst possible crime against God, not mankind. I was not trying to be deceptive, and I am sorry you took it that way. If I switched my words, I did it unintentionally, but I hope I clarified my position."

Okay. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

Derek Adams said...

It sure is a telling story when Samatar will address everyone BUT me.

Also note Kangaroo's excuses "you islamophobes quote any source we should be able to aswell".

hahahaha

First ad-hom, then two wrongs make a right, don't forget the hasty generalization. You ain't no scholar geeves, get lost until you can actually handle what Islam actually says. Three fallacies in one, I thought the Muslims didn't like the Trinity?

But note the pitiful responses of Samatar and Kangaroo regarding why Christians should not be punished in this life.

Christians should not be punished in this life since it doesn't harm other humans, it's between them and God.

1) Christians teach their own children shirk

2) Christians are commanded to preach shirk to all nations

3) Christians every week in church, home groups and youth groups evangelise with shirk.

So what is this nonsense that they are not affecting other humans? In fact in Judaism, what is worse than being murdered or killed by Christians is to have a Jew's soul become a Christian due to idolatry. Atleast the Jews are consistent.

As I said the first time round. Allah the false god punishes the less severe sins but not the most severe sin that causes damnation of immortal souls. Then they lie and say this doesn't affect others on earth when it does.

By the way if they think it's not "governmental" to punish people for whats between them and God, they should try reading the Quran 9:29-31

The believers are to be fought FOR there paganism. The reason is explicitly stated in the verses. It has nothing to do with defense.

As usual the total Muslim failure to come up with anything but lies is depressing.

Kangaroo if you are going to act so arrogant then at least have anything at all to back up anything you say.

Samatar, I will expect you to keep running, but why come on this forum pretending you are answering when your not? All your arguments have been refuted and you can't respond.

Derek Adams said...

Also note the other deceptions of these Muslims.

Islam does routinely punish apostates, this is undisputed in any Islamic school of fiqh(jurisprudence). For God sake even the Shias, AND Salafis (who some Muslims have problems with) accept the capital punishment for apostasy.

So what are they going to tell us now, that there is God is simply inconsistent?

That God will punish some human beings for changing to Christianity (the worse sin imaginable), but he will not punish the Christians themselves who helped convert them on earth?

Allah's divine wisdom is amazingly stupid.

These guys are one pathetic joke.

"Between us and God" = NONSENSE.

Kangaroo should go back to the Australian outback where he belongs. Also notice this wannabe calling us "Islamophobes". Anyone who knows what Islam actually teaches and can support what they say is an Islamophobe.

Ibn Kathir was an Islamophobe. So was Ibn Tamiyah. So was Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman and Ali who all spread Islam by the sword. They were all Islamophobes. Kangaroo go live in Egypt bro, your Muslim Brotherhood is waiting to cut our heads off for offending you.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Samatar how do you know Muhammad is heaven?

Zack_Tiang said...

I don't think Samatar got the main point of David's post here... or is it just me?

David's main point of this post is NOT the peculiarity of Samatar advocating 'shirk' as the worst possible sin, worse than rape/murder/adultery....
His main point is that this 'worst possible sin' is excused from any form of punishment (in this lifetime), whereas lesser sins like adultery, murder & rape get death penalty (almost unquestionably).

That is the peculiar position that Samatar has placed himself in (and apparently, Kangaroo as well).
Lesser sins get death penalty; greatest sin of all doesn't get anything.

jonnykzj said...

@ALL MY CHRISTIAN BROS N SIS

Samatar Mohamed's following statement lead me to make this comment:

Samatar said amongst other stuff:

"...worst SIN possible. And that also encompasses NOT BELIEVING in Allah (swt) AFTER you have seen the EVIDENCE, namely the QURAN and SUNNAH." (emphasis mine)

In this regard I'd like to point out firstly that the evidence for GOD is ALL AROUND ONE shown by the things made. BUT I MUST ADD HERE many of my Christian bros n sisters interpret this as "DESIGN SEEN IN NATURE". THAT'S NOT what i believe Paul meant at all when he was inspired to make that statement. It's not meant that we look at objects and say "Oh look how complex and thus designed it must have a designer" and then infer that desinger as GOD. There are MANY PROBS with this line of reasoning which Ive outlined in my comments under bro David Wood's debate with John Loftus on GOD's Existence.
NOW WHAT I BELIEVE PAUL MEANT IS THE WAY IN WHICH THINGS COME TOGETHER TO ULTIMATELY SATISFY US EVEN IN THE MOST UNEXPECTED CONDITIONS FOR EXAMPLE. For example you might have reached a low point in your life and SUDDENLY AND AMAZINGLY your life turns around AND ALL THIS BY THE THINGS THAT GOD MADE i.e. VIA NATURAL STUFF COMING TOGETHER FOR U IN A CERTAIN WAY. Then there's other stuff which most of us humans FROM ALL REGIONS find attractive or beautiful LIKE the galaxies in outer space and their spiral forms THOUGH WE'VE NEVER SEEN THESE DETAILS before we had these powerful telescopes. SO HERE ATHEISTS/AGNOSTICS CANNOT POSTULATE the argument that we just evolved to find them such FOR BOTH developed, YES VIA NATURAL LAWS, BUT INDEPENDENTLY AND YET TO OUR APPEAL(which is extremely significant cross culture btw here) THAT'S how i say Paul's statement be understood.
SO to conclude I'd say that the Quran and Sunnah is nothing like that. ONLY those who're brainwashed by muslims who already are part of the faith AND WORSE TRICKERY N DECEPTIVE AFTER FACT FORCED INTERPRETATIONS find any amount of satisfaction from those for the existence of GOD.

INDONESIA-MAN said...

As I'm experiencing in my country, Islam is certainly dilemma for those who hold it.

Many atrocities being done in the name of this religion. Just recently as being also posted in this site is arrestment of an atheist (Alexander Aan)just because he make a statement about not believe in God
in http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/01/indonesian-atheist-alexander-beaten.html

I just want to give you latest news about Alexander Aan, he's now possibly going to reconvert back to Islam to avoid imprisonment of 5 yrs prison, unfortunately it seems his move hasn't "satisfied" the muslim society, that's why the state considers to keep him in prison.

From my personal experience in my country muslim become nice because of the impact of Westernization. But now as Islamization is being propagated all around the world Islam are slowly showing its true horrific face.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/calls-to-behead-indonesian-atheist-alexander-aan/495308

Ahmadi muslim sect is also being pressured in my country
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12389097

There are many churches has been restricted to be build and banned one of the primary news is Yasmin Church in Bogor http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/01/22/gki-yasmin-church-mass-disrupted-protest.html


Btw is there anybody here can help me to told those who keep replying to me at MDI site (http://thedebateinitiative.com) just don't have to bother them self anymore since seemingly i've already being banned in that DISHONEST WEBSITE?

One in particular concerning my country Indonesia,there's a guy spreading some lies as if Indonesia is tolerant country and nothing that I've said about muslims atrocities ever happen (http://thedebateinitiative.com/2012/01/29/what-i-wrote-from-my-heart-malcolm-x/#comments)

Please if one of you in case also engaging debate in those site, notice how cowardly they keep replying to my comment &want to give impression as if I won't answer. When the truth is MDI site keep on rejecting my reply. I even ready& available if they want to engage in email debate with & the mail will be published for open public. My email is regularjohn2012@hotmail.co.id

Sorry guyz if my post kind of long but those Taqiyyist are so cunning in managing their forum,and I just want to share my bad experience.

One of the ultimate evidence of Muslim Debate Initiative cowardly act when they pulled down their own newly 2012 article written by Sami al-thar with its title "Quran and Historical Jesus" , because I've managed to exposed the stupidity of its content. Since that I think I've been being blacklist by MDI website &restricted till the climax is yesterday.

Sorry for any inconvenience
Regards RJ

jonnykzj said...

@Samatar Mohamed

>>...While rape, adultery, and murder is punishable. From my deduction, an act like stealing, killing, adultery are all things that not only infringe upon God, but also harms humankind in the earth.<<

JK- You conveniently forgot about "blasphemy", SPECIFICALLY AGAINST MUHAMMAD, which IS PUNISHABLE BY DEATH UNDER SHARIAH law. That, just like SHirk, you'd have to agree would be something between Allah, Muhammad and the blasphemer n not harm anyone else.

>>...When someone fornicates, there is a chance of spreading diseases such as Aids, which harms humans.<<

JK- In this way if one uses unhygienic needles or not properly checked blood transfusions THERE IS AN EVEN HIGHER CHANCE OF GETTING MANY MORE DISEASES INC AIDS. Should therefore many hospitals in Pakistan and many other underdeveloped Muslim countries receive the DEATH PENALTY TOO? No Muslim has ever argued for such in history SIMPLY COZ IT'S NOT ABT THT. Muhammad copied from the OT and though these offense to GOD must be punished through our hands with ZERO EVIDENCE OF AUTHORITY VIA ANY MIRACLES as did the previous Prophets and a total disregard for the New Covenant.

INDONESIA-MAN said...

Continuing my previous post ,just want to add a bit, my nickname in Muslim Debate Institute is REGULAR JOHN

Thx

RJ

Andish said...

Islam: the religion of, "rape 1000 women, it's ok! Just don't associate partners with me! Everything is cool brah! I got some more virgin women for you to rape in my paradise!"

Confirmed by the Quran and Hadith.

Christianity: the religion of, "you did many things in my name. You gave to charity, you went to church, and even gave your last penny to a friend ALL in my name. But you disrespected your mother, raped women, and wasn't sincere in most of your acts. They weren't for me, just for eathly rewards. I do not know you."

Confirmed by the Bible. (gospels)



Which religion is right? Which religion makes more sense? Which has more justice?

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

It's evident that talking to a wall is more productive.

I say just let them(muslims) have their fun trusting in magical beings and believing in the imaginary.

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Samatar,

Just wanted to see what you think about verses:

Hebrews 9:22 "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."


Leviticus 17:11"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life."


Genesis 3:21"The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them."

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Zack tiang

"His main point is that this 'worst possible sin' is excused from any form of punishment (in this lifetime), whereas lesser sins like adultery, murder & rape get death penalty (almost unquestionably)."

Yes, and I have addressed that point if I may add. Shirk infringes upon God almighty, but not necessarily upon humankind. Derek Adams had made an argument that a parent teaching their children is technically harming mankind, and he tried to trap me into saying that therefore, shirk must be punished in this world. But in Islam, we believe that whoever Allah (swt) guides, no one can lead astray, and whoever Allah leads astray, none can guide. Therefore, if someone is sincerely taking steps to approach God, then God will make himself evident to that person. So his point is invalid because no matter what a parent teaches their child, when they get to the age of understanding, then if they sincerely have the choice of following a lie, or choosing the truth. Now remember, some of the things I say such as shirk only infringing upon God is my own personal opinion and not necessarily the established islamic position.

Hadith Qudsi 15:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

"Allah the Almighty said:

‘I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assembly better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed."

curly said...

@ INDONESIA-MAN
Wow.. Thank you so much for sharing what you see in Indonesia. Jesus bless you for your light toward Indonesian people

John 8:24 said...

Jonnykzj in response to Samatar: You conveniently forgot about "blasphemy", SPECIFICALLY AGAINST MUHAMMAD, which IS PUNISHABLE BY DEATH UNDER SHARIAH law. That, just like SHirk, you'd have to agree would be something between Allah, Muhammad and the blasphemer n not harm anyone else....... Muhammad copied from the OT and though these offense to GOD must be punished through our hands with ZERO EVIDENCE OF AUTHORITY VIA ANY MIRACLES as did the previous Prophets and a total disregard for the New Covenant.

Great answer Jonny! I am quite proud of you that you in such a short time after coming out of Islam are able to expose it and defend the gospel!!!

Samatar & Kangaroo, now respond to David, Derek and Jonny or gracefully accept defeat.

cornholio said...

For a muslime to accuse anyone of bigotry is kind of like a nazi accusing someone of being an antisemite.

curly said...

@jonnykzj
I want to ask you. I remember you WAS muslim and now christian.
I like you to share with me about your experience. You know Muslim always tell us Quran have miraculous scientific like embryo, big bang, more. I am sure long time ago you really believe Quran have miraculous scientific.
I do not have much time to read Quran. I was read from chapter 1 to 4 that it. Actually, Quran is too boring and many repetitions. Also, I have many errands in my priority. I like to ask you what you have experience.
Now, you are christian.I have two questions for you. 1. What is your opinion about Quran do have scientific stuffs today?
2. That time you WAS muslim. How you accepted Quran have scientific while you WAS muslim?
Thank you so much, brother

cheryl_maree said...

@Samatar
But in Islam, we believe that whoever Allah (swt) guides, no one can lead astray, and whoever Allah leads astray, none can guide.
My question is - Why teach at all if (Allah) has already determined everything? My daughter is muslim so she should let me go into the hellfire because Allah has guided me there? or should she try to reguide me even though Allah is leading me astray.

jonnykzj said...

@curly

>>I want to ask you. I remember you WAS muslim and now christian.
I like you to share with me about your experience. You know Muslim always tell us Quran have miraculous scientific like embryo, big bang, more. I am sure long time ago you really believe Quran have miraculous scientific.<<

JK- Infact brother ONLY ABOUT THREE MONTHS AGO I STILL QUITE STRONGLY BELIEVED IN MANY OF THE SO CALLED SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES OF QURAN N ALSO IT'S NUMERICAL STRUCTURE BASED ON NR. 19 FASCINATED ME.
As a 12 yr old boy or so the first time the Quran really appealed to me was when I read 21:30. I thought until recently this actually described the "big bang" and this is something absolutely impossible to do back then if not from GOD. HOWEVER last year i started to analyse stuff more critically and took of my bias lenses which i noticed were there despite me not admitting to it. THE CORE REASON i found there was something wrong is the QURAN'S FALSE DESCRIPTION OF THE TRINITY N IT'S CLAIM TO CONFIRM THE GOSPEL, ASKING THE PPL TO JUDGE BY THE GOSPEL IN MUHAMMAD'S TIME AND YET CONTRADICTING IT REG THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES. Then i found out EVEN THE VEDAS could be interpreted to make MUCH MORE ACCURATE DESCRIPTIONS of the universe and big bang cosmology. ALSO i found out that 21:30 does not imply initial expansion of space-time, as does big bang, BUT RATHER THT THERE WAS ALREADY EARTH N HEAVEN N THOSE TWO WERE JOINED TOGETHER PHYSICALLY N THEN WERE PARTED. Also 41:9-12 when read critically clearly shows that the earth was finished first WHILST HEAVEN WAS STILL SMOKE, ALSO ADDING THAT AFTER HEAVEN WAS FINISHED NOW HEAVEN N EARTH SHOULD "COME TOGETHER" which seems like the opposite as compared to 21:30. I tried my best to interpret this "COME YE TOGETHER" part as GOD now actually bringing heaven and earth into existence BUT the previous verses already mention that earth was created n all that's in it. Also "thumma" ALWAYS IMPLIES SEQUENCE IN ARABIC. ONLY IN MODERN TIMES DID i ever notice Muslims argue tht it can mean "moreover" or "simultaneously" which snds like "after fact" understanding and thus is worthless. Furthermore 41:9-12 implies eight days of creation, NOT six as the Quran mentions in various other places and the Quran challenges that it shldnt have contras.

>>I do not have much time to read Quran. I was read from chapter 1 to 4 that it. Actually, Quran is too boring and many repetitions. Also, I have many errands in my priority. I like to ask you what you have experience.<<

JK- I used to love Quran coz of this style actually. I convinced myself that via these repetitions GOD wanted to sort of "BURN" His revelations INTO OUR MEMORY EFFECTIVELY. And i also found the style of each time adding a little more detail very amazing. Now i found out though that although this is the case to some extent THERE'S STILL MANY CRUCIAL DETAILS LACKING and one cannot derive many crucial practices EVEN from the Quran overall to any satisfactory degree.

>>Now, you are christian.I have two questions for you. 1. What is your opinion about Quran do have scientific stuffs today?
2. That time you WAS muslim. How you accepted Quran have scientific while you WAS muslim?<<

JK- It's in my reply above.

>>Thank you so much, brother<<

JK- Ur welcome bro. :-)

gabriella oak said...

If Allah guides whom he will, and has already decided who is destined for heaven and hell, then why oh why does he care about putting blaspheming apostates to death ?
Can a blaspheming apostate lead astray someone whom Allah has decided to guide on the right path ?

Sounds to me as though ex-Muslims like Nonie Darwesh and Aayan Hirsi Ali are far more powerful than the Islamic God.

Zack_Tiang said...

Samatar said,
"Shirk infringes upon God almighty, but not necessarily upon humankind."

But what about blasphemy laws (as pointed out by Jonny)?
If anyone is found to have blasphemed against Muhammad and Allah, his 'crime' is punishable by death.

Just to add, what about laws against apostasy? Those who leave Islam are also punishable by death.

How are these in line with your argument that acts that only infringe upon Allah and do not bring harm to others are not punishable by death in this lifetime?

NITEMARES791 said...

minoria said "Segment 2 One argument given by the skeptics
Samatar Mohamed: Should Christians Get the Death Penalty?"
If Jesus really resurrected and his Jewish enemies knew it was true then WHY didn't they believe?

They didn't accept him and that shows the resurrection never happened.

OK,how to say it Suppose a true,authentic document were to be unearthed,showing that YES,the Jewish enemies of Jesus did believe he had resurrected,the Romans soldiers had seen it,they told the Jewish leaders,etc. Would a religious,Orthodox Jew TODAY accept Jesus as GOD?

Of course NOT.They would say,like 2,OOO years ago:"There is God and a DEVIL,so it was a TRICK of the Devil." THAT is the mentality of a religious Jew THEN and NOW.Obviously such a detail never occured to the skeptics.I have never read a skeptic even be aware of the mentality of a religious Jew."

What about the mentality of you Christian. If there was a true,authentic document were to be unearthed,showing that NO your god never was resurrected would you stop believing in your false god.

Of course NOT you would say like 2000 years ago There is God and a DEVIL,so it was a TRICK of the Devil."

So minoria stop being a hypocrite like I see allot of Christians being. Christians even comment in my room on pal talk how hypocritical their fellow Christians are. Christians insult the false god and profit of islam incessantly under the guise of freedom of speech yet when some one insults the Christian god they dot you or bounce you to shut you up.

"Even if ALL doubted it conforms to the mentality of a religious Jew,who might have moments of doubt,that it is a TRICK of SATAN,about a MAN who resurrected,not because the man resurrected,but because he did AFTER saying he was GOD."

Tell me if your god resurrected where is he. Oh how convenient he was taken away before he had the chance to prove he was a god. Ha ha ha ha.

"because he did AFTER saying he was GOD."

Some one saying he was a god does not make him a god. You dont have to be religious Jew to figure that one out.

Tell me why didnt your god at least live long enough to write his own book.?

So if I was you minoria I would watch before I wrote. Tell me what's the mentality of a Christian? to believe what any one writes or says.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@John 8:24

"Great answer Jonny! I am quite proud of you that you in such a short time after coming out of Islam are able to expose it and defend the gospel!!! "

I really don't know what you are so happy about. He hasn't given a source in the Quran or authentic hadith narration where blasphemy of the prophet (pbuh) is punishable by death. And johnny of all people should know that tthe authority of muslims is the Quran and the authentic narrations of the hadith. If the sharia law has a ruling not found in the Quran and hadith, especially a ruling that involves the killing of a life, then I am a muslim do not hold authority to any such rule.

Derek Adams said...

Samatar sometimes I wonder what planet you are on:

"The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter" 5:33

Ibn Kathir:

"`Wage war' mentioned here means, OPPOSE and CONTRADICT, and it INCLUDES DISBELIEF, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. Ibn Jarir recorded that `Ikrimah and Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that the Ayat,

(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger) until, (Allah is Of-Forgiving, Most Merciful,) "Were revealed about the idolators. Therefore, the Ayah decrees that, whoever among them repents before you apprehend them, then you have no right to punish them.

This Ayah does not save a Muslim from punishment if he kills, causes mischief in the land or wages war against Allah and His Messenger and then joins rank with the disbelievers, before the Muslims are able to catch him. He will still be liable for punishment for the crimes he committed.''

Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i recorded that `Ikrimah said that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah, (The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land...) "Was revealed concerning the idolators, those among them who repent before being apprehended, they will still be liable for punishment for the crimes they committed.''

The correct opinion is that this Ayah is general in meaning and includes the idolators and all others who commit the types of crimes the Ayah mentioned.

Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded that Abu Qilabah `Abdullah bin Zayd Al-Jarmi, said that Anas bin Malik said, "Eight people of the `Ukl tribe came to the Messenger of Allah and gave him their pledge to follow Islam. Al-Madinah's climate did not suit them and they became sick and complained to Allah's Messenger . So he said,

(Go with our shephard to be treated by the milk and urine of his camels.) So they went as directed, and after they drank from the camels' milk and urine, they became healthy, and they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured. He then ordered that their hands and feet be cut off (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. Next, they were put in the sun until they died.'' This is the wording of Muslim. In another narration for this Hadith, it was mentioned that these people were from the tribes of `Ukl or `Uraynah."

Later Ibn Kathir reports a tradition directly uttered by the Prophet himself:

"9That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.) means, the punishment We prescribed, killing these aggressors, crucifying them, cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, or expelling them from the land is a disgrace for them among mankind in this life, along with the tremendous torment Allah has prepared for them in the Hereafter. This view supports the opinion that these Ayat were revealed about the idolators. As for Muslims, in his Sahih, Muslim recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "The Messenger of Allah took the same pledge from us that he also took from women: THAT WE DO NOT ASSOCIATE ANYTHING WITH ALLAH IN WORSHIP, we do not steal, commit adultery, or kill our children, and that we do not SPREAD FALSEHOOD about each other. He said that he who keeps this pledge, then his reward will be with Allah. He who falls into shortcomings and was punished, then this will be his expiation. And those whose errors were covered by Allah, then their matter is for Allah: If He wills, He will punish them and If He wills, He will pardon them.''"

Derek Adams said...

For all of the rest of his commentary go here:

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=784&Itemid=60

Blasphemy of the prophet is not tolerated.

If that's not convincing enough then you might want to learn about the Dead Poet Society founded by Mohammed himself:

http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/dead_poets.htm

http://www.answeringinfidels.com/answering-infidels/answering-muslims/murdered-by-muhammad.html

Mohammed does not allow criticism. Apparently Samatar thinks the whole Muslim world goes nuts when you insult Islam because well?? well for no reason at all! It's highly unIslamic! ;-)

This might help you out Samatar, Islam should have a special right not to be offend according to 57 Muslim dominated countries:

http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/01/memorial-day-muslims-have-special-right.html

But Muslims certainly have the right to insult disbelievers:

http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/01/does-quran-insult-all-non-muslims-by.html

Derek Adams said...

Next Samatar makes a half hearted attempt to address only one of the numerous points he must respond to but continuously avoids. To address his latest blunders:

"Derek Adams had made an argument that a parent teaching their children is technically harming mankind, and he tried to trap me into saying that therefore, shirk must be punished in this world. But in Islam, we believe that whoever Allah (swt) guides, no one can lead astray, and whoever Allah leads astray, none can guide.

Therefore, if someone is sincerely taking steps to approach God, then God will make himself evident to that person. "

Notice Samatar brings up a genetic fallacy (and a red herring). For the origin of a belief whether God guides one, or not is irrelevant to the question we are asking. If rape is caused by God or by human beings or both and in what order is irrelevant. The rapist must still be punished. Likewise the origin of ones guidance has no bearing on the crime of shirk itself. How Samatar actually thought this helped him is beyond comprehension. Samatar and his non-sequitors will go on and on.

Next he says:

"Now remember, some of the things I say such as shirk only infringing upon God is my own personal opinion and not necessarily the established islamic position."

Well he got that right, his position is unIslamic. And notice how he also dodged a bullet, as I said before:

"Islam does routinely punish apostates, this is undisputed in any Islamic school of fiqh(jurisprudence). For God sake even the Shias, AND Salafis (who some Muslims have problems with) accept the capital punishment for apostasy.

So what are they going to tell us now, that there is God is simply inconsistent?

That God will punish some human beings for changing to Christianity (the worse sin imaginable), BUT HE WILL NOT punish the Christians themselves who helped convert them on earth?? "

If Samatar thinks I'm making this up. He should check with his buddy Zawadi that he always links to:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/of_course_apostates_should_be_killed

Go here aswell where I take on Zawadi (Dk is me):

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008/10/bassam-zawadi-responds-to-sami-zaatari.html

Hezekiah Ahaz said...

Samatar,

I know you have a lot on your hands but I was wondering on what rational basis do you justify belief in a magic being and the imaginary?

jonnykzj said...

@Samatar Mohamed

Here FIRST is the authentic hadith making this absolutely clear and btw this concept is agreed upon by ALL SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT:

“(...wa man ‘baddala deenahu, fa AQTULOOHU) ...Whoever changed his religion, then kill him.” — Bukhari(Book #52, Hadith #260 and Book #84, Hadith #57)

NOW SECONDLY some Muslims claim that a Muslim apostate should not be killed just coz he apostates. BUT EVEN THEY AGREE that should a muslim become an apostate AND THEN PREACH HIS NEW RELIGION TO THE MUSLIMS(which obviously is part of the ESSENTIAL religious duties of many religions especially Christianity), THAT PERSON MUST NOW BE KILLED FOR SURE. NOW TELL ME HOW does preaching your point of view to others CAUSE ANY HARM OTHER THAN PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS GETTING UPSET?

cornholio said...

I have to say I admire Indonesia-Man because I'm sure he could be arrested for what he writes here (if he still lives in Indonesia) and worse, if the wrong muslo-nazis found out about it.