Sunday, December 18, 2011

Sunni Muslim Prays for Jews and Shias

A heart-warming prayer from a follower of the Religion of Peace.

47 comments:

Deleting said...

pretty sure Jesus said something about this...

OH! Lookie here:
Matt 6:5 ""And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."
Pretty sure you can tuck tv programs after synaogues and on street corners.
Especially street corners. You know muslims will stop traffic all so they can pray???

Oh, wait. Here's another one:
Luke 18:11 ""And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."
Yeah....I'm gonna let that one speak for itself.
Oh, no I'm not.
This man had no problem with the egyptian cursing Jews but OH NO!! A SUNNI IS CURSING A SHIAA!!!!
Really? Aren't you two opposite sides of the same coin?
Jesus is soo smart. It's like he could see into the future or like..He's like...God.

Radical Moderate said...

What is really telling about this video is that the Muslim who is condeming it, is not condeming what he said per say, just who he said it to.

As a matter of fact if this prayer would of been soly against the Jews, Christians and other Kuffar he would of found nothing wrong with it.

CristoTeAma said...

Why he didn't curse the Jews the same way? because Jews are around 0 in those countries, except for Israel, Why did he talk in such a matter about the Shias? Because in Islam the word love means nothing.
I desagree in many ways with the catholics and others Christians, but i would never desire cancer or death for them, they are people searching for God just like i am, and even for atheists or other non christians religion i would never desire such things, this is sad.
PS: Freemasonry and JEws have always the guilt LOL.

Da Bauz (The Boss) said...

Religion of PIECE(s) indeed!

John 8:24 said...

Wow! The primary complaint of the moderate Sunni is that the cleric didn't curse the Jews as much as he cursed the Shias!!! Of course, the cleric must be a Zionist!

Jesus said: "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48)

In spite of their claim, Muslims do not follow Jesus or his teachings! They call Jesus their prophet but do not follow his teachings. They follow only Muhammad and it shows in their life - whether radical or moderate. They hate, curse and pray against both their enemies and their own who disagree with them. Jesus likens loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us to being like our Father in heaven. Though it is quite rare, there might be some Muslims who do not curse or hate their enemies but I haven't seen or heard of a single Muslim who actually loved his enemies and prayed for those who persecuted them. However, there are thousands of such Christian examples all through history!

Now, Muslims, answer these questions for yourself:

1) Do you really follow Jesus?

2) Do you think Matthew 5:43-48 is a real teaching of Jesus or is it corrupted? If you think it is corrupted, who corrupted it? If Satan corrupted this, is Satan now promoting such pure love? What could be uncorrupted version of this?

3) Tell us which is morally superior - loving your enemies and praying for them or hating and cursing your enemies?

4) Who do you consider as your enemies? Do you personally love them or hate them?

5) Have you seen any Muslim among your family, relatives, friends or community that loved their enemies and prayed for them?

6) According to Jesus in Matthew 5:43-48 God loves even those who hate him and following God in this aspect is a sign that one belongs to God. Do you believe that? If yes, then do you think you belong to God?

Deleting said...

Opps...lookie here....a mess up.

This is luke 18:11
"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."

Deleting said...

HEY DAVID!!
Isn't there a hadith or something is the sira about Mohammad running and taking refuge with a Christian, only to turn around and have him killed when he protested the execution of his friend?

The Purple Marquise said...

This is so familiar to us from Muslim countries! Shias and Sunnis hate each other's guts! As I said in some of my previous comments Shias are no better towards Sunnies. They also curse them and even curse their Caliphs! All of them except Ali! They even sometimes burn Omar in effigy!

And of course both Shias and Sunnis hate the non-Mulsims! When I was in school in Iran every morning before our lessons start we had to stand in line in the school yard and pray for God to destroy (I mean physically destroy) all the enemies of Islam! A lot of Islamic praying is just cursing!

Muslim people curse each other so often that would be very frightening to the ears of someone who comes from a christian culture! But it is very normal in Islamic culture! Mothers even curse their little kids when they act naughty! An otherwise good mother can easily open her mouth and as a matter of course when she is angry with her kid say: "May God humiliate you" or "May God strike you with plague and cholera" or some "nice" wishes like that!! Mind you these are very normal and loving mothers who don't wish these things on their kids really and really don't mean it and if these curses really come to pass they will be the first one to grieve in agony! But the culture has conditioned them to take these curses lightly and utter them thoughtlessly because in Islam cursing is such a light and routine act!

I remember when I was in school our religion teacher prayed thusly after every lesson: "Oh God, please either bring non-Muslims to the right path of Islam or just kill them!!" As simple as that!!

I remember once I asked her why is she praying to God to kill people instead of just praying to guide them and leave the rest to Him. She said: "Because the enemies of Allah always spread corruption on earth and cause Muslims to stumble in their path! So they staying alive equals good Muslims being in danger of their corruption all the time! So if these people themselves don't want to embrace Islam (which if they do we will all be happy) then it is much better and healthier for everyone if they are dead and not spreading their corruption and falsehood!"

Some logic there!!!!! Muslims are TERRIFIED of the "corrupting influence" of the non-Mulsims (which is nothing but their eye-opening expose of Islam's inconsistencies and falsehoods)!

Islam cannot survive the sunlight even for a moment! That's why they are cursing everybody who is not Mulsim day and night! They truly are a hopeless bunch of people!

SGM said...

@ Purple Marquise,
It is nice to hear from you again. Coming from a Moslem country myself, I can attest to what you are saying is so true. As matter of fact, anytime Moslems are not fighting among themselves, e.g., shias vs sunnis or even among their own groups, they are after the Christians. So we Christians keep wishing all the time that they keep fighting among themselves so that they can leave Christians alone.

One thing to note is that Moslems fail to understand what corruption is. As a Christian I call this corruption sin. To us Christians breaking God’s law out side of his set boundaries is sin. What I mean by set boundaries is e.g, taking human life would be murder but God does allow capital punishment. But, as we have demonstrated time after time, murdering innocent people in Islam (suicide bombing) is not a sin to them. Adultery is another example. I even feel ashamed of bringing this up again and again, but to Moslems their Allah allows them to do it. And many similar things.

So my point is that even though they think that they are trying to stop corruption but what they fail to see that their whole religion is based on corruption itself. Corruption does not come from outside into Islam but it flows outside from within. Islam is the house which the builder built on sand. Anything outside of Christ is hopeless.

jonnykzj said...

@ALL CHRISTIANS

Just wanted to let you know that I'VE BECOME A CHRISTIAN FULLY since almost two weeks now and it is AWESOME. Now i drink two glasses of red Italian dry wine, DOCG quality mostly(appx 150ml and 17g alcohol). SOME christians ive heard say that the Bible bans alcohol altogether BUT THIS IS FALSE coz there are clear passages in there stating that "wine gives joy to the heart" and others. Also the claim Jesus turned water into "grape juice" or unfermented wine doesnt make any sense. OTHER THAN THT wine in moderation can reduce heart risks by up to 60%. HOWS THAT for a supposed abomination? ALSO it's not just the alcohol min wine that has the effect BUT MANY ANTI OXIDANTS that r only found concentrated in FERMENTED wine, NOT grape juice.
IN CONCLUSION the Bible BANS TO GET DRUNK, NOT THE SUBSTANCE ALCOHOL ITSELF. I think Christians who argue otherwise got influenced in part by islam once again for the Quran finally asks muslims to STAY AWAY FROM KHAMR(i.e. wine actually NOT just anything that covers as i once thought) altogether. DID U KNOW tht too much OXYGEN can ALSO MAKE U HIGH? Theres even a song about it , remember "love is like Oxygen...you get TOO MUCH YOU GET TOO HIGH... :)) " SO DOES this mean now GOD has prohibited oxygen as well? SEE now how this doesnt make sense?
Ever since ive become a Christian ive had long and very pleasant discussions with quite a few Christians and pastors in person. I MET USER "JOHN 8.24" IN PERSON as well two days ago and it was FANTASTIC. He made a long prayer for me at the end before we left.

Radical Moderate said...

On a completly un realated topic.
DId anyone catch the Simpsons Christmas Special.

Dearborn MI gets a shout out.

Millhouse is alergic to everything Christmas so he goes to Dearborn MI because their a Sharia city, but they make him wear a veil.

Just thought it was to funny not to mention lol

SGM said...

Dear Kim and Osama,
Quick Question.

Have you ever heard in any religion (other then Islam) prayers like this? As matter of fact lot of friday prayers by maulanas in moslem countries include prayers like this.

It is time for you moslems to take some lessons from our Lord Jesus Christ who taught us to pray, "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done,on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread,and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Kim said...

Would be better if he said something like May Allah give victory to the Muslims.

Search 4 Truth said...

Congrats Johnny. I could tell your intellect and the holy spirit would lead you to the truth of Christ. God bless bro. I am so happy for you.!

SGM said...

Dear Kim,

Your suggestion is worse then this mulana. Atleast he is keeping it constraint to Jews and Shias. Your prayer includes the whole world. Victory to moslims means victory all over the world and complete annihilation of all the rest.
Are you not happy with the free society you live in. Are you against the government that allows freedom of religion. Look around yourself, all the comforts of life that you enjoy here in the west are not a product of Islam. And you want to pray for victory for Moslems? So that all can be turned around to seventh century Arabian culture.

Well, sorry to burst your bubble of wishful thinking. Moslems will never be victorious. We are told in the bible that Satan will never have victory. He is already defeated. Sin brought DEATH into the world. But it is swallowed up in VICTORY thru Jesus Christ. We read in I Corinthians 15:54-55, “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" And in verse 57, “But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” You see, God gives victory to the ones who have faith in Jesus Christ. Again in I John 5:4, “For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.”

May God bring you to His fold thru His Son Jesus Christ so that you can truly experience victory.

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Johnny

Your decision is completely yours, but I still encourage you to continue with your research on Islam further. By leaving Islam, and going to christianity, you have associated partners with God almighty, and that is the one crime that Allah (swt) will never forgive.

Surah Tur (54:43)

أَمۡ لَهُمۡ إِلَـٰهٌ غَيۡرُ ٱللَّهِ‌ۚ سُبۡحَـٰنَ ٱللَّهِ عَمَّا يُشۡرِكُونَ

Or have they a god other then Allah? Exalted is Allah far above the things they associate with Him!

Samatar Mohamed said...

And on another note, I heard Christopher Hitchens passed away a few days ago. Never agreed with the man in many aspects, but he was an intellectual man who I found somewhat amusing in his debates.

TAREK said...

Dear sisters and brothers,
I'd like to greet you all in the name of our LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST. I want to thank Dr. David and his team for the great job they are doing day and night for us. I pray always for your safety and success in all your projects.

I have a question for Mr. Osama; Mr. Osama where arre you please, would you come on the blog and tell us that this imam is wrong? What type of peace do you have in islam? Is this the religion of peace you spoke of? Please tell the imam that he misunderstood islam.

At Ms. Kim has came out to say the imam does not know islam. Ok..... Well done Ms. Kim .... you know better than him. Lt me use this opportunity to invite you to CHRIST Ms. Kim. HE LOVES YOU AND YOU WILL HAVE PEACE ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN

Once more thank You Dr. David and your team. I look forward to honoring my words from January. I'll email you to find to get some info before I proceed. MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL IN JESUS' NAME AMEN.

Deleting said...

Johnny-That was wonderful and heartwarming to hear!!!
Welcome to the family bro!!!!

Deleting said...

Johnny,
I remember the post you made a few months ago about reading the gospel of john and your stance of the trinity.
Would you mind sharing your testimony of that tipping point. Considering this time of christmas as we're spiritually preparing for the lord's arrival,this is the p-e-r-f-e-c-t time and it honors Jesus.
Post it here or perhaps David can post it here?

simple_truth said...

Kim said...

" Would be better if he said something like May Allah give victory to the Muslims."

It doesn't matter what he says. His heart is vile just like many other Muslims who say prayers similarly. In fact, those who follow the life of Mohammad more closely do just that. It is unavoidable.

Kim, do you condemn such prayers? I ask because you haven't spoken out against it. You have only objected to the wording of what he said--not the content or his intent, which is to curse. Would you be OK with non-Muslims cursing Muslims?

Usama said...

Another loving invocation from the brothers in the Gulf.

Certainly, these are "the best of peoples, evolved for mankind" (Qur'an 3:110)!

SGM:

Have you ever heard in any religion (other then Islam) prayers like this? As matter of fact lot of friday prayers by maulanas in moslem countries include prayers like this."

Yeah, I know I know Arabic...

It's also stupid for Muslims to say "Maulana" because the Qur'an says that only Allah is "al-Mawla", so stupid Muslims don't realize they commit shirk... surely it's a misguidance.

Don't they know that the Prophet said: "Every innovation is a misguidance and every misguidance leads to the Hell-fire."?

"It is time for you moslems to take some lessons from our Lord Jesus Christ who taught us to pray,"

"you moslems"? You are addressing me, aren't you? If you are addressing me, then you should know that I am not a Muslim, but a Christian.

Radical Moderate said...

Kim asked

"Would be better if he said something like May Allah give victory to the Muslims." ?

Good question KIM, what does it mean for Allah to give Muslism Victory?

In Christ, he and Chritians are given victory over sin and death.

curly said...

@The Purple Marquise,
It is nice to hear from you again. Hey sister, thank you for sharing your experience from Iran! Your experience is value. I always enjoy to listen from you. Jesus bless you

@Jonnykzi,
Praise Lord Jesus Christ. You found an truth! Eternal Life is your ! Reminding you that you stand face the trial for your faith. Keep be strong and hold firmly in the name of Jesus Christ. Go spread the gospel to everywhere. Jesus bless you, brother!

Seam_on_Us said...

@ johnnykzj

Bravo, dude! I would still like to hear from you concerning any aspects of Christianity that you find confusing. It isn't that I have all the answers but I will be happy to search for them on your behalf. So, here is my email address once more:

ebs4allways@yahoo.com

I am truly happy for you. Welcome to the family of the Great and Glorious King. May you grow more in His Spirit and His Truth to the Glory of His Blessed Name, through Jesus Christ.

Amen and God Bless.

SGM said...

Dear brother Usama,

In my comments I do mentione Osama's name but I am referring to Osama Abdulla, not you. God bless you.

@jonnykzj,
It is a pleasure to hear that the Lord Jesus opened your eyes and made you a part of his fold. You know there is much rejoicing in heaven every time a sinner repents and comes into the fold of Christ. in Luke 15:7 we read, "Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Would love to hear your testimony and about what made you to turn to Christ. May God bless you and use you for His glory.

jonnykzj said...

@ALL CHRISTIANS

Id like to thank you all for your warm comments. "Deleting" i believe you asked me as to how i understand the trinity and/or multiple person, one essence in general. One example id like to give ppl is that of Mr. Smith in the matrix. He comes in 100s of persons, some r even lower in rank than others BUT THEY R ALL ONE PROGRAM. BUT even the early Church fathers gave an excellent example with the sun and it generating it's rays N AT NO TIME was the sun there without it's raise but yet they're distinct. EVEN with the elementary particles like electrons, quarks etc THEY EMIT PARTICLES with which they mediate the strong and weak forces AS SOON AS THEY COME INTO BEING.
Then i also used the example of the VARIOUS REGIONS IN OUR OWN VERY BRAIN PLUS OUR HEART(ive read studies which state tht the heart does have, if only in tiny amounts, contain neurons and thus has its own tiny neural network). All are DISTINCT YET THEY'RE ALL ONE BEING i.e. US. FINALLY it is important to notice that all examples can ONLY APPROXIMATE the trinity coz GOD IS INFINITE. But what we can grasp somewhat is that if we stretched out these distinct elements mentioned earlier and their essence wed 1) have a super positioning of all of them and 2) since the essence is infinite all these wld share an infinite amount of the very essence and thus all wld be fully the same essence. All GOD's 3 persons are thus FULLY 100% GOD.
LASTLY in the same way Christians prayed for me I shall now pray for them that they never lose trust in GOD and I'll continue to do my best to formulate sound arguments BOTH AGAINST islam and atheism.
It'd be nice if we cld one day perhaps have a skype conference together. my ID ill post again on skype is idmkhizar

jonnykzj said...

@Samatar Mohamed

>>Your decision is completely yours, but I still encourage you to continue with your research on Islam further.<<

JK- Oh I'm actually researching islam more and the more i do, the more absurdities i find.

>> By leaving Islam, and going to christianity, you have associated partners with God almighty, and that is the one crime that Allah (swt) will never forgive.

Surah Tur (54:43)

أَمۡ لَهُمۡ إِلَـٰهٌ غَيۡرُ ٱللَّهِ‌ۚ سُبۡحَـٰنَ ٱللَّهِ عَمَّا يُشۡرِكُونَ

Or have they a god other then Allah? Exalted is Allah far above the things they associate with Him!<<

JK- Lemme explain to you why this is nonsense. CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE OTHER gods BESIDES GOD. This is wht the Quran fails to understand and thus it falsely criticizes Christians when it foolishly states that we take Jesus as a god BESIDES GOD. NO, we Christians say Jesus IS GOD i.e. the ONE AND TRUE GOD HIMSELF and at the same time the Father and the Holy Spirit are ALSO FULLY GOD coz GOD is infinite and so is His Essence and infinity divided by anything remains infinite. ALSO can muslims say that the Word of GOD is His creation or is it eternal? Ofcourse they must admit to the latter. THIS HAS LED them to forrmulate such ridiculous and self contradictory claims as "The Word of Allah is NOT ALLAH BUT ALSO NOT ANY OTHER BUT HE". And then these same ppl have the nerve to call Christians illogical.
FINALLY NEVER DOES the Quran claim that either the Torah OR the Injeel have been corruted INFACT IT ASKS JEWS AND CHRISTIANS TO JUDGE BY THEM and in other verses talks about the people of the Book HAVING THESE BOOKS "BAINA YADAIHI" i.e. "RIGHT INFRONT OF THEM/PRESENT WITH THEM". <we know historically thhat what the Jews and Christians understood as Torah and Injeel IN MUHAMMAD'S TIME are the OT and entire NT we also have today. SO when the Quran asks them to judge by them it must mean they're not corrupted and if so and they contradict the Quran, which they clearly do, then the Quran is false.

Search 4 Truth said...

Awesome Johnny. Great explanation. But he wont accept it. So be prepared to repeat it to the same person over and over. Peace!

The Purple Marquise said...

Brothers Curly and SGM thank you for your kind words. Those of us who come from Islamic countries should speak up about our experiences as much as we can, so that the westerners open their eyes!

Cursing in Islamic culture is one of those things that when the non-muslims find out any knowledge of they get invariably very shocked and alarmed. It is a window to the dark heart and evil nature of Islam and its satanic teachings and is fundamentally opposite to what Christians and even members of most other (false) religions are taught.

Brother jonnykzj, God bless you and keep you and strengthen your faith and understanding day by day! I am so happy that all of your research and ardent seeking of God with and open heart and mind have born their fruits and you finally found Jesus the true Lord of Lords! Welcome home, brother!

Your defense of Christianity to Samatar Mohamed was excellent and thoughtful! I see that The Lord has been increasing your knowledge very fast! Praise The Lord!

Thank you for your prayer for us, dear brother, and may I say, Amen!

Seam_on_Us said...

@ johnnykzj

Excellently put dude! I am truly glad; about a month into the faith and you're already this insightful.

Praise God and keep up the great work through the Great King, Jesus Christ.

God Bless, brother.

Osama Abdallah said...

"ALSO can muslims say that the Word of GOD is His creation or is it eternal? Ofcourse they must admit to the latter. THIS HAS LED them to forrmulate such ridiculous and self contradictory claims as "The Word of Allah is NOT ALLAH BUT ALSO NOT ANY OTHER BUT HE". And then these same ppl have the nerve to call Christians illogical."

RESPONSE:

I have never met any Muslim, or read from any Islamic text, anything that says "The Word of Allah is NOT ALLAH BUT ALSO NOT ANY OTHER BUT HE"!


Also, if something is Eternal, how can that prove that it is GOD Almighty?

The Word of Allah Almighty is something that Allah Almighty Has full control over. He can destroy it totally if He wanted. Think of it as THE MERCY. It's an Attribute of Allah Almighty. If Allah Almighty Chooses, He can eliminate It from Him, and He'd be a non-Merciful GOD Almighty. The same goes for Forgiveness, Wrath, etc... Allah Almighty Has full control over ALL OF them. This is why Allah Almighty Said:

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, 'When Allah completed the creation, He wrote in His Book which is with Him on His Throne, ****** 'MY MERCY OVERPOWERS MY ANGER.*******' ' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Beginning of Creation, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 416)"

If could've been the other way around if Allah Almighty Chose. I think the Bible agrees with this, even though it may not be clearly spelled out in your Scriptures as it is in ours.

In any case you choose, you still can not prove that Jesus is GOD Almighty. Jesus, like Adam, peace be upon both of them, was created FROM the Word of Allah Almighty. He is a Word, and not the whole Word! He is no more than a creation. Allah Almighty Said:

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, ******* if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? ********** For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things." (The Noble Quran, 5:17)"

The same thing goes for the Holy Spirit. It works under the Command of GOD Almighty:

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) ****** BY COMMAND OF MY LORD: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)" (The Noble Quran, 17:85)"

I hope this answers your thoughts.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Johnny

I am shocked that you do not understand that who you and other christians call "The father" is actually who muslims believe is Allah. Just like the Jews who believe in God the father (As you call him), but not the holy spirit or Jesus. Therefore, christians do prescribe partners beside the father, i.e. the trinity. This all comes to whether the trinity is a religion of monotheism or polytheism. We muslims, and the Jews, fully believe that the trinity is a polytheistic belief that cannot be logically explained if you try to make it monotheistic. And the confusion is highlighted in the incarnation of Jesus (pbuh). The two main questions I ask most christians who never give an even satisfactory response are, If God is one, how can he be manifest in three persons, or how can he be settling in heaven, and also be in the person of Jesus (pbuh) simultaneously. If the divine nature that is God is in three different areas simultaneously, it would only be logical to assume that there are three Gods. My second question and more important is when jesus (pbuh) died on the cross, did he die as a man only, A god only, or as both man and God. If he only died as a man, how can one man be an infinite sacrifice for all of mankind. If he died as a God, then are you saying God died. And if he died as a man god, that still leaves the question muslim asks, did God die. I gave you this site before of Dr. James White taking the position that Jesus did not die as only a man or only a God, but as a Godman. James white goes further to say that the union of Jesus dying as a Godman is vital to the doctrine of atonement and an infinite sacrifice for the sin of mankind.I'd like to hear a response from you or any christian. Here is the source:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjpq468GpJI (From 5:10 to 5:40)

Deleting said...

Samatar you don't know what the jews believe so you can't say that.
Judism, much like Islam, is not a monolith. There are many, many jews, most of them secular. Many are atheists. Some are in kaballah, some are reformed, some are orthodox but many of them follow their own traditions and not what the bible teaches.
Please go to the bible and read Ezekiel 18 and you can see the difference between the jews and their rebellion-verbal and physical-and Yahweh (not Allah that was never his name. It's just a colloquialism arabs used to call a god)

jonnykzj said...

@Osama Abdullah

>>I have never met any Muslim, or read from any Islamic text, anything that says "The Word of Allah is NOT ALLAH BUT ALSO NOT ANY OTHER BUT HE"!<<

JK- You really need to read some literature of Orthodox Muslims. Here is an article which quotes these statements PROVIDING REFERENCES:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/god_his_word_and_the_quran.htm

>>Also, if something is Eternal, how can that prove that it is GOD Almighty?<<

JK- Can there be anything else eternal besides GOD? Isnt this an essential attribute which uniquely belongs to GOD being essentially the same as "al-awwal wal akhir" i.e. "the alpha and the omega"?

>>The Word of Allah Almighty is something that Allah Almighty Has full control over. He can destroy it totally if He wanted. Think of it as THE MERCY. It's an Attribute of Allah Almighty. If Allah Almighty Chooses, He can eliminate It from Him, and He'd be a non-Merciful GOD Almighty. The same goes for Forgiveness, Wrath, etc... Allah Almighty Has full control over ALL OF them. This is why Allah Almighty Said:

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, 'When Allah completed the creation, He wrote in His Book which is with Him on His Throne, ****** 'MY MERCY OVERPOWERS MY ANGER.*******' ' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Beginning of Creation, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 416)"

If could've been the other way around if Allah Almighty Chose. I think the Bible agrees with this, even though it may not be clearly spelled out in your Scriptures as it is in ours.<<

JK- NO this is allah's VERY NATURE. ALSO even if one insists on these attributes what abt GOD'S essential attributes like His being eternal? Can He stop being eternal? Does tht make sense?

>>In any case you choose, you still can not prove that Jesus is GOD Almighty. Jesus, like Adam, peace be upon both of them, was created FROM the Word of Allah Almighty. He is a Word, and not the whole Word! He is no more than a creation. Allah Almighty Said:

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, ******* if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? ********** For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things." (The Noble Quran, 5:17)"

The same thing goes for the Holy Spirit. It works under the Command of GOD Almighty:

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) ****** BY COMMAND OF MY LORD: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)" (The Noble Quran, 17:85)"

I hope this answers your thoughts.<<

JK- You're quoting Quran here which ive shown even FALSELY DEFINES THE VERY TRINITY IT ACCUSES. So how can i trust any of it? So NO im sorry but it does not answer anything for me.

jonnykzj said...

@Samatar Mohamed

>>I am shocked that you do not understand that who you and other christians call "The father" is actually who muslims believe is Allah.<<

JK- This is most certainly not the case coz MUSLIMS DO NOT ACCEPT GOD TO BE A FATHER. In islam the highest position you have before allah is A SLAVE, NOT A SON. The Bible is full of statements portraying God loving us as a Father and we being His children in that sense. There's nothing like that in islam.

>>Just like the Jews who believe in God the father (As you call him), but not the holy spirit or Jesus.<<

JK- What do you mean not the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of GOD, is clearly mentioned in the OT as well. As for Jesus, yes a great part of the Jews still deny that Jesus is th Messiah and GOD's Word and GOD Himself BUT that happens every time GOD revealed additional stuff, there were people who denied it. Even the quran says that the Jews used to kill their prophets whilst many from the Jews clearly accepted Christ. So this argument of yours is just silly.

>>Therefore, christians do prescribe partners beside the father, i.e. the trinity.<<

JK- NO WE DO NOT coz 1) Jesus is NOT A god BESIDES THE FATHER and 2) the term father can be used in more than one sense in the Bible. For example in Isaiah 9:6 Christians understand even Jesus being called the Eternal Father BUT NOT in the sense that He is GOD THE FATHER, BUT that He's the AUTHOR of Eternal Life. Also in the OT thee term Father in the OT can refer to the entire Divine Being i.e all three persons. For more detail search for the phrase "Is the Messiah God the Father?" at http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_mighty_god.htm
and read the article.

>>This all comes to whether the trinity is a religion of monotheism or polytheism. We muslims, and the Jews, fully believe that the trinity is a polytheistic belief that cannot be logically explained if you try to make it monotheistic.<<

JK- As ive explained before the very concept of GOD even amongst those Jews who dont accept Christ is VERY DIFFERENT FROM allah in islam.

jonnykzj said...

@Samatar Mohamed again

>>And the confusion is highlighted in the incarnation of Jesus (pbuh). The two main questions I ask most christians who never give an even satisfactory response are, If God is one, how can he be manifest in three persons, or how can he be settling in heaven, and also be in the person of Jesus (pbuh) simultaneously. If the divine nature that is God is in three different areas simultaneously, it would only be logical to assume that there are three Gods.<<

JK- In the same way i can ask how can it be then that allah was in the fire(FI AN-NAR) on the mountain whilst communicating with Moses(27:8)?
ALSO are you saying that GOD cannot appear in different places SIMULTANEOUSLY? HAVE U EVER WATCHED the movie "matrix". Do you see the ONE PROGRAM MR.SMITH being in multiple places, in xple persons at the same time? R u saying GOD cannot do this?

>>My second question and more important is when jesus (pbuh) died on the cross, did he die as a man only, A god only, or as both man and God. If he only died as a man, how can one man be an infinite sacrifice for all of mankind. If he died as a God, then are you saying God died. And if he died as a man god, that still leaves the question muslim asks, did God die. I gave you this site before of Dr. James White taking the position that Jesus did not die as only a man or only a God, but as a Godman. James white goes further to say that the union of Jesus dying as a Godman is vital to the doctrine of atonement and an infinite sacrifice for the sin of mankind.I'd like to hear a response from you or any christian.<<

JK- To understand this you need to understand the MEANING OF DEATH here. It means that the BODY STOPS FUNCTIONING AND THE SPIRIT IS SEPARATED FROM IT and there can also be significant pain involved especially in crucifixion. SO when Jesus, who is fully Divine, dies, it means HE EXPERIENCED FULLY THE DEATH, AS HIS SPIRIT, which remained alive as all of ours do, WAS SEPARATED FROM HIS BODY n further IMU ALL PERSONS OF GOD FELT THE PAIN. This is wht makes the Christian GOD so amazing Who's Willing to experience these real feelings and thus be close to us.

jonnykzj said...

@Samatar Mohamed again

Let me also add here why IMU GOD does not just forgive sin, though Sin basically is DISOBEDIENCE OR AN OFFENSE TO GOD. GOD's Nature according the Bible is such that He cannot tolerate sin and/or just overlook it, SO He has to sort of, id say "calm" Himself down within Himself. NOW He cld either do this in His essence such that no obsever can see it OR HE CAN SYSTEMATICALLY DO SO FOR US HUMANS TO SEE AND AS I SAID BE4 TO ALSO SHOW US THAT HE IS READY TO SUFFER FOR US AND i also now agree with David Wood that He wanted to demontrate to us perfect mercy and justice. Looking at this now for example now a human judge can also try and be BOTH somewhat merciful and cary out justice by say deciding in certain situations that he himself would pay the offended person's debt and thus that person would now not mind if the offender be spared the penalty and thus justice is served whilst the offender has also been shown mercy.

Seam_on_Us said...

@ Samatar Mohamed

In this post I will be building on what johnnykzj has already mentioned.

1. You say that your Allah is the same as the Father. The thing is we Christians call Yahweh "Father" as Jesus directs us to. So tell me, do you believe that Allah is the same as Yahweh? If yes, then you should have no problem praying to Yahweh. Would you pray to Yahweh?

2. Concerning your assertion that the Jews do not believe in the Holy Spirit, tell me, if one decides to believe that the moon is only the back of the sun would that make it so? The Spirit of God is mentioned in the OT (as johnnykzj pointed out) and is therefore not up for debate even in a Jewish setting. God has a Spirit regardless of what you say the Jews believe.

3. Now, to the Trinity. How many lines make up a triangle? Can a triangle have on one or two lines? Do not three lines make up a triangle? Would you say that because three lines make up a triangle therefore there are three triangles not one?

Moreso, is not a man a son to his parents, a husband to his wife, a father to his children and an employee to his boss? Are all these not different persons in the same individual? Would you say that because he acts differently towards his wife, children, parents and boss that there are four individuals and not one?

Thus, if in the lesser things of geometry and in the greater substance of man we see different aspects constituting the whole, should it not follow that the One in whose image and likeness we were formed could likewise have different Persons to His Whole Self?

Just as you cannot have more than one triangle occupying any given space at any given time so also is there only ONE God! Not three, ONE. At best you can have identical triangles but Jesus is not identical to the Father, He is ONE with the Father (Jhn 14:8-10)

4. Concerning what johnnykzj pointed out about the burning bush please read Exds 3 & 4:1-14. Also read Jeremiah 23:23-24 where God says that He is everywhere, both near and far, in heaven and on earth. Who are we then to limit the Omnipresence of God because our 'logic' cannot comprehend such a possibility?

5. As regards the death of Jesus, and as johnnykzj also pointed out, it was the flesh that died, not the soul and not the Spirit. Now to deal with your question of how one man can be an infinite sacrifice for all mankind. (Forgive me if the following story would be redundant but I am not sure how familiar you are with the story of the bronze snake [Numbers 24:4-9] so I will summarise the content.)

To be continued...

Seam_on_Us said...

@ Samatar Mohamed continued...

The Israelites were heading towards the Red Sea and became impatient with all they were facing out in the desert and began to, once again, complain and get bitter. The Lord got angry with them and sent poisonous snakes that bit and killed many of them. The people repented of their wrong doing and asked Moses to pray for them.

The Lord answered Moses and told him to "make a snake out of bronze and place it on top of a pole." Anyone who had been bitten and looked upon the snake would live.

Now, immitating the locution of my Lord, if you can tell me, using your human logic, how a bronze snake hoisted up on a pole can bring about the salvation of all who had been bitten and looked upon it, then I will tell you how Jesus' sacrifice runs into infinite eternity. I will save you the trouble and tell you anyway.

In the NT it is said that we should not look to the wisdom of men but that we should trust in the Power of God. This is so that we do not rubbish the mighty works of the Lord with our lacking and restricted wisdom. However, you Muslims repeatedly (knowingly or unknowingly) besmirch that Power everytime you question the saving grace of Our Lord's Sacrifice.

Furthermore, there are instances in the OT where the Lord specifies sacrifices to ask for His forgiveness. One such instance is recorded in Leviticus 4:13-21 where it is said that, when the whole nation sins against God (even unknowingly) that they are still guilty (this is a very relevant aspect of sinning against God and coincides with a doctrine in law that says that "ignorance of the law is not an excuse"). To ask His forgiveness, the priest was to sacrifice a young bull. Not 10, not 100, not 1000, but 1!

So if the Lord could accept the blood of just one bull as recompense for the sins of an entire nation, how much more would the blood of His Chosen Messiah be able to cover and even expiate the sins of all humanity?! For even as sinful as we are, we know that the life of one of our children (talk less of a perfect son in whom one is well pleased) is more valuable than all the bulls the world has to offer. So also is the blood of Jesus precious before the Father.

God Bless.

curly said...

@JonnyKzi,
You use the very beautiful example for Trinity is Mr.Smith in the Matrix. It is really good one !!! Good job, brother.

“Finally NEVER DOES the Quran claim that either the Torah OR the Injeel have been corrupted”. Yeah !! oh yes !! It is what I suspect about Muslim teacher for dishonest. I did read Quran but just first four chapter because it is so boring and many repetition. Anyway, I noticed again by again that Mohammad said his teaching is not different from Abraham’s teaching, Jesus’s teaching, Moses’s teaching, all prophet’s teaching, EVEN THE 12 TRIBES. It lead me to suspect about the wrong teaching of Muslim community. I assumed Muslim leader in the past deceived and teach his student and spread out to Muslim community for generation and generation, so it become the common knowledge in Muslim community even Muslim scholar which they do not realize it. It is sad, so pray for them to wake up for the TRUTH.

curly said...

Hello Osama Abdallah,
Quran is NOT Allah's word? that mean Quran is NOT HOLY ?

Samatar Mohamed said...

@Johnny

You misunderstood my statement. There are three persons in the trinity, one is the father, then the son, then the holy ghost. The one in the trinity who you call the father is who the muslims call Allah (swt). I am not saying that God is our father, but you call our God, the father. For exapmle, lets assume a sect that only believes that Jesus (pbuh) is God. To explain to you they only believe that jesus (pbuh) is the only God they believe in, they would tell you that they believe in the one christians term the son. Not that they believe Jesus is a son, but to explain to you which of the three persons they believe is God.

As to your statement on the holy spirit, the Jews believed thatit was Gods spirit, not that it was a separate person in a Godheaad. God has hands also, are you telling me that the hand of God would be in a God head with God, of course not, therefore the jews and christians see it very differently.

In your third statement you say that the father is used in more than one sense. But you are just evading my point as I am speaking about the first person in the trinity who you christians name the father to distinguish him from the son and holy spirit. Therefore, you do ascribe partners with the father by making a trinity.

In my fourth question you have committed what is called the tu quoque fallacy by instead of answering the question you threw it back on me. You do not respond to a question by saying, but you guys do it too, rather you answer the question. I am still waiting on this one.

And you completely evaded my most important question as to who died in the cross. Was it only Jesus (pbuh) the person, Jesus (pbuh) who is divine, or both of Jesus (pbuh) of his natures. From you description you only showed me that it was his human nature that died. But did his divine nature also suffer the death or was it only his human nature. If it was only his human nature than it cannot be an infinite sacrifice as you claim, because as james white says, the unity of Jesus (pbuh) dying as a godman is critical for the doctrine of atonement. If you are going to answer any question, please respond to this one.

jonnykzj said...

@Samatar Mohamed

>>You misunderstood my statement. There are three persons in the trinity, one is the father, then the son, then the holy ghost. The one in the trinity who you call the father is who the muslims call Allah (swt). I am not saying that God is our father, but you call our God, the father.<<

JK- I explained to you that THE WHOLE BEING OF GOD, i.e. FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT, can be called FATHER as well coz He, IN ALL HIS PERSONS, loves us and cares for us. Also the term father in the Bible is used in different ways. Even Jesus was called "Everlasting Father". I even posted to you the page which explains this in detail.

>>For exapmle, lets assume a sect that only believes that Jesus (pbuh) is God. To explain to you they only believe that jesus (pbuh) is the only God they believe in, they would tell you that they believe in the one christians term the son. Not that they believe Jesus is a son, but to explain to you which of the three persons they believe is God.<<

JK- There is no sect of Christianity which says that ONLY JESUS is GOD and not the Father or the Holy Spirit. WHAT THERE IS is a heresy KNOWN AS MODALISM which states that GOD is one Person WHO APPEARS AT TIMES as Father, at other times as the Son and at still others as the Holy Spirit.

>>As to your statement on the holy spirit, the Jews believed thatit was Gods spirit, not that it was a separate person in a Godheaad. God has hands also, are you telling me that the hand of God would be in a God head with God, of course not, therefore the jews and christians see it very differently.<<

JK- I was confused at first regarding this "hands of God" issue at first too BUT what we Christians say many Jews did not understand, for many early Christians were Jews themselves, is that the Holy Spirit COMMUNICATES WITH US and coz it is not separate from GOD It must be Fully GOD and also coz It demontrates Powers and has attributes that only GOD has. GOD's hands DO NOT COMMUNICATE n hence lack personhood. THIS DIFF IS CRUCIAL.

>>In your third statement you say that the father is used in more than one sense. But you are just evading my point as I am speaking about the first person in the trinity who you christians name the father to distinguish him from the son and holy spirit. Therefore, you do ascribe partners with the father by making a trinity.<<

JK- I do not ascribe partners with the Father in the sense of it being used FOR THE ENITRE BEING inc Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Within the Divine Being OR better yet GOD Himself has WITHIN HIMSELF three persons OF WHICH ONE IS HIS FATHER, ANOTHER HIS SON AND YET ANOTHER HIS SPIRIT. More simply put when we talk about GOD the Father in the sense of the trinity we mean GOD's own Father wrt to the other two persons within Him.
...

jonnykzj said...

@Samatar Mohamed

...

>>In my fourth question you have committed what is called the tu quoque fallacy by instead of answering the question you threw it back on me. You do not respond to a question by saying, but you guys do it too, rather you answer the question. I am still waiting on this one.<<

JK- This is one pt where i have to disagree with both you and bro David Wood. SURE we have to explain why the point in itself is wrong BUT IF U, especially as a religion claiming to be the truth from GOD, say something is true THEN U CANNOT BRING THT SAME THING AGAINST US or ull be striking the axe into ur own feet. It also comes across to me as very dishonest on ur part or at the very least shows ignorance on ur part for u shld have known in such cases that you accept the very thing as such AS RIGHTEOUS, NOT JUST THAT YOU DO IT TOO BUT YOU ACCEPT IT AS CORRECT. There's a huge difference there too.

>>And you completely evaded my most important question as to who died in the cross. Was it only Jesus (pbuh) the person, Jesus (pbuh) who is divine, or both of Jesus (pbuh) of his natures. From you description you only showed me that it was his human nature that died. But did his divine nature also suffer the death or was it only his human nature. If it was only his human nature than it cannot be an infinite sacrifice as you claim, because as james white says, the unity of Jesus (pbuh) dying as a godman is critical for the doctrine of atonement. If you are going to answer any question, please respond to this one.<<

JK- AGAIN you did NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT DEATH MEANS. Tell me something. When we say person x died, DO WE MEAN 1) BOTH his body stopped functioning and his spirit also was destroyed OR 2) ONLY his body stopped functioning whilst his spirit was separated from it? THE VERY TERM DEATH IMPLIES THE SPIRIT BEING SEPARATED FROM THE BODY with the spirit "feeling/experiencing" the process. Did you get it this time?

The Berean Search said...

Samatar,

I would love to address much more of your comments, but as I'm typing from my phone and short on time i will only address your point about the Jews not believing in the Holy Spirit. This is completely false. "Ruach HaKodesh" is the Hebrew term for Holy Spirit. The Jewish belief about the Holy Spirit contradicts the Muslim belief that the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel, so you have just refuted Islam by appealing to modern Orthodox Jews. If you are consistent, and you say their beliefs refute Christianity then you must also accept that they refute Islam. Why are Muslims constantly appealing to sources that refute their own religion?

Foolster41 said...

@Samatar: So you're still not willing to admit you don't understand Christian Theology as well as you thought (or tried to make us beleive you thought) you did? Do you still insist that Christians believe in 3 Gods, even when a number of people have said this is untrue? I'm going to guess no, because Islam has a mentality of Superiority. Almoost all of the Muslims I've talked to have a very very hard time admiring they are wrong to a kufr even when presented proof. they have a hard time even admiting they might be wrong!

Well, Samatar, can you admit that you might be wrong? You've spouted so many logical inconsistent and out right false things here, as I said I doubt it. Humility is a Christian attribute, not a Muslim one.
I doubt he'll even respond. It seems he's been ignoring me lately.