Who is Islam's real hero? I'm perpetually amazed by the inability of Muslims to connect Muhammad's teachings and draw logical conclusions from them. In this video, I connect two simple claims of Muhammad, which together lead to a startling result.
We could do this all day.
128 comments:
So this technically means that Allah chose to drink from the dirty cup then a clean one. something is seriously wrong.
Because a perfect creation would signify that all allah made was good but instead he chose to wipe them out.
so Allah and Satan are partners in crime. Allah wants ppl to Sin and satan tempts ppl into sinning ... Wow
Response from Yahya snow
David, If you do a lil bit of research and go to the 4 schools you would know that all these are false .. those hadiths are from Jews and satan ...
No references and yet some ppl will quote him here ...
Sahih David is going from strength to strength
David,
The same can be said about the Bible. Mock Islam all you want, and philosophise all you want, but there is onething I wish for you to keep in mind. Islam came to restore the original Faith! The restoration of the original Faith's Name, Islam, the belief in One GOD Almighty and associating no partners or idols with Him, Praying, Fasting, Charity, Pilgrimage, and so on. Something had been destroyed by the Christians and the Jews so much that now everything about GOD Almighty has to be in a trinity, which ironically we don't even find the word anywhere in the Bible!
I wouldn't take Islam so carelessly and so lightly like that, David. There is a lot more to this Great Faith than what you put forth from desperate out of context "arguments". You should study Islam more honestly and more objectively, especially when everything you say about Islam is several folds worse in the Bible!
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com
APB said...
" so Allah and Satan are partners in crime. Allah wants ppl to Sin and satan tempts ppl into sinning ... Wow
Response from Yahya snow
David, If you do a lil bit of research and go to the 4 schools you would know that all these are false .. those hadiths are from Jews and satan ...
No references and yet some ppl will quote him here ..."
Let's see. Here are the hadith collections in order of authenticity according to Wikipedia. I am not really a fan of Wiki, but I don't think that a matter like this would be incorrect.
-------------------
Sunni Muslims view the Six major Hadith collections as their most important. They are, in order of authenticity:
Sahih Bukhari, collected by Imam Bukhari (d. 870), includes 7275 ahadith
Sahih Muslim, collected by Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875), includes 9200 ahadith
Sunan al-Sughra, collected by al-Nasa'i (d. 915)
Sunan Abu Dawood, collected by Abu Dawood (d. 888)
Jami al-Tirmidhi, collected by al-Tirmidhi (d. 892)
Sunan ibn Majah, collected by Ibn Majah (d. 887)
-------------------
Shi'a Muslims do not use the six major Hadith collections followed by the Sunni. Instead, their primary hadith collections are written by three authors who are known as the 'Three Muhammads'. They are:
Kitab al-Kafi by Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni al-Razi (329 AH)
Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih by Muhammad ibn Babuya
Al-Tahdhib and Al-Istibsar both by Shaykh Muhammad Tusi.
===================
So, if you are a Shia, I can understand your position; but, if you are a Sunni, then you have no legs to stand on. Since Sunnis make up over 80% of all Muslims, we will go with the Sunnis as being normative of Islam.
David quoted Sahih Muslim 6621, 6622, and the Qu'ran; so, I don't see the problem with the authenticity of hadiths since Muslim is authoritative for most Muslims.
David,
Great video again! I am eager to see how Kim, Samatar, Osama and other Muslims respond to this.
By the way, I am really excited about the book projects. However, please do not let that come in the way of making great videos like this one and posting interesting articles on this blog. I do think that your videos will reach a far greater number of people since not every one will be able / willing to buy your books.
Godspeed!
Old refuted stuffs. And why tell Muslims merry Christmas, I wouldnt say Happy Eid to you?
Yikes. Just when one thinks Islam couldn't be more irrational we learn that Satan has saving powers in the outworking of Mo's thought. May Wood's exposing of such lead many to the real saving Savior: Jesus Christ.
It seems that with Mr. Christian Values, Herman Cain, falling apart on his sex scandals, it makes you wonder what exactly is the Christians' faith when all of their faith leaders are nothing but crooks?! With all of these sex scandals burning the Christian church, it becomes more and more obvious that Islam is indeed, and without any doubt, the ONE AND ONLY Solution to all of humanity! Period! Everything else falls.
Long live Islam, and long live the Shariah Law! Islam is indeed the ONE AND ONLY Solution to all of the lost mankind! The disbelievers will not be able to turn off (extinguish) the Light of Allah Almighty and His Islam. Allah Almighty Will COMPLETE HIS PURPOSE! Without Islam, nothing in this life has any value! I swear to Allah Almighty, I have no purpose to live without this Beautiful and Cherished and Blessed Faith, Islam. I LOVE ISLAM WITH ALL OF MY HEART!! I thank Allah Almighty infinitely that He Made me win the Divine PRIZE for choosing me to be born a Muslim. I sincerely ask Allah Almighty, and Pray to Him the Almighty, to Will for me to die a Muslim, and most preferrebly to die a Martyr for His Glory and Cause and Holiness! Ameen. The Islamophobe disbelievers have nothing but crookedness! All of them!
Indeed, long live Islam, and long live the Shariah! The only Cure and Justice for humanity.
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com
I did not have any doubts before that Islam is Satan's religion. It is just an additional proof.
Thank you,David. You do a great job!
Mr. Osama Abdallah is really really upset. He has all reasons for that, because he is confronted whith facts that he cannot disprove. And he responses with usual Muslims' response - cursing Christians and Jews.
As we can see, he wants to die a martur (which actually means a murderer). Yeah, yeah, the same old stuff "Kill the infidels". If Muslims do not kill infidels, they kill each other.
Mr. Osama Abdallah is a true representative of a truly Satanic cult.
Kim said: "Old refuted stuffs."
Could you give us a few links to some of the "refutations" so we can examine them?
Back in the day, you'd give us links to lame apologetics sites and assume we'd take the existence of such links as clear proof that our arguments had been refuted. Now you simply claim that refutations exist somewhere (without even providing links), as if this is enough for people who like to think.
Shameful. It's like you're giving up, but still leaving comments.
I am really shock, because i don't know if i have improved so much my skills against Muslims arguments or it's just that Osama's arguments are so low that i just find them funny:
Osama said.."The restoration of the original Faith's Name, Islam, the belief in One GOD Almighty and associating no partners or idols with Him, Praying, Fasting, Charity, Pilgrimage, and so on."
What original faith? because we don't have any "real" Torah or Injil in our hands, but we do have Allah telling to Muhammad that if he has doubts he can come and ask us (ppl of the book, so i suppose the Bible isn't so corrupted huh? ), we don't find any manuscript or comment before the 7th century about any faith named "Islam" so it seems Allah did a terrible job spreading the real faith. "No partners" you should tell your God that we don't consider Mary part of the trinity, maybe that could leave some stuffs clear. "No idols" well we Christians do not bow and kiss a black cube which many pagans a idolaters worshipped too including Muhammad, so i don't know how you can say such things considering that worshipping Idols is in your book, but mine condemns that. "Prayings" we do pray in case you didn't notice, but we do it because we love talking to our God, not because our God tells us we must do it or we will be in hell fire, besides when we pray we don't have any special time following stars or moon or whatver Pagans in Mecca used to do and have nothing to do with God. "Fasting" we fast but as our god taught us we do it in secret so only he knows that we are doing it because we want to get closer to him and not to be seen for the ppl.
Continue… To Osama: "Charrity" We are comanded to do good works, to live humble lifes 1 Timothy 6:7-11 in example, yet Muslims say you must do Charity, but your Prophet commanded you to steal, torture, murder, rape, and slave ppl, so i don't think charity between muslims (which we don't see considering most of the money that goes to the poors in the world comes from western countries, yet Muslims only use the money to make big buildings like in Dubai) can make the horrible things you are allowed to do better. "Pilgrimage" That's a pagan tradition made by pagans in Mecca, to worship the many Idols they had there but in special to worship their Moon God named Allah who at that time had 3 daughters (strange because now Allah has no son).
But even more important, Osama failed in making a decent argument, or refute David’s claims, he just said what any Muslim (no Schollar) would say, he just missed the “fastest growing religion” argument and he would’ve said the same low arguments Muslims use.
Osama also said: "With all of these sex scandals burning the Christian church" Exactly those are scandals, and according to our god thats a sin, and according to our culture that must be punished, YET IN ISLAM IT IS HALAL, you can have sex with lil girls, so it's not a scandal, it's just SHARIAH which you say that is the "cure" LOL!!! i rather being sick then, the cure is a represive system that kills everyone who don't agree with it? i hope you never say Shariah and Democracy can coexist.
BTW: The pagans loved their Hubal God too, but that doesn't mean he was the real God was he?
I am just noting the references that David used.
------- Sahih Muslim -----------
Also included is 6620.
Chapter 2 : THE OBLITERATION OF SINS WITH THE HELP OF SEEKING FORGIVENESS PROM ALLAH
Book 37, Number 6620: Abu Sirma reported that when the time of the death of Abu Ayyub Ansari drew near, he said: I used to
conceal from you a thing which I heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Had you not committed sins, Allah would have brought into existence a creation that would have committed sin (and Allah) would have forgiven them.
Book 37, Number 6621:
Abu Ayyub Ansari reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: If you were not to commit sins, Allah would have swept you out of existence and would have replaced you by another people who have committed sin, and then asked forgiveness from Allah, and He would have granted them pardon.
Book 37, Number 6622:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace(you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.
--------- Qu'ran ----------------
Surah Al-Baqara (2) (Yusuf Ali)
We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." (35) Then did Satan make them slip from the (Garden) and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down all (ye people) with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling place and your means of livelihood for a time." (36)
-------------------------
Surah Al-Araf (7) (Yusuf Ali)
O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." (19) Then began satan to whisper suggestions to them, in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said "Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest ye should become angels or such beings as live forever." (20) And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser. (21) So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that satan was an avowed enemy unto you?" (22)
-------------------------
Surah Al-Hijr (15) (Yusuf Ali)
(Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong― (39)
-------------------------
How can anyone say that these passages aren't considered authentic, at least according to Sunnis?
To Muslims: are thse passages misunderstood in any way? If so, please elaborate by using solid evidence. Opinions are not counted as evidence unless they are backed up by solid evidence.
Osama Abdullah said: "The same can be said about the Bible."
You're lying. Please quote the chapter and verse where God says he wants people to sin and threatens people who do not sin. There's no such thing in the bible.
From the hadith, what I get from it is to show the importance of repentance to Allah (swt). I don't think that any scholars would take it to mean that Allah (swt) actually needs sinners, but to emphasize the importance of repentance. And the whole thing about satan being a partner in crime with Allah (swt) is disrespectful, especially when the Quran constantly warns against satan. The games you are playing are not that funny, and can, and has been done to even the bible.
Samatar's translation of Muhammad's words:
"If you hadn't sinned, Allah would have wiped you out of existence and replaced you" = "Repentance is important."
Samatar, do you know what's even more dangerous than me going with the obvious implications of Muhammad's teachings? Reinterpreting Muhammad's clear claims. It's called "innovation," and it's a one-way ticket to hell according to your prophet. Strangely, Westernized Muslims feel quite comfortable reinterpreting Muhammad's claims whenever it pleases them.
Osama likes typing in big bold letters.. but if you actually read what is in those big bold sentences, there's nothing in there that refutes David's analysis.
Typical Muslim apologist will do anything to draw the attention away from the problems in the Qur'an.
Christian: Hey look, these passages don't make sense to me, could you please explain?
Muslim: ISLAM IS THE BEST RELIGION. LOOK! YOUR BIBLE CONDONES GENOCIDE!
Christian: lolwut?
Osama Abdallah said...
" It seems that with Mr. Christian Values, Herman Cain, falling apart on his sex scandals, it makes you wonder what exactly is the Christians' faith when all of their faith leaders are nothing but crooks?!"
You really shouldn't even go there. Exactly how does Herman Cain get into this discussion as topical? Are you switching gears on us to avoid commenting on David's presentation? If I didn't know any better, I would think that you are.
"With all of these sex scandals burning the Christian church, it becomes more and more obvious that Islam is indeed, and without any doubt, the ONE AND ONLY Solution to all of humanity! Period! Everything else falls."
You really shouldn't go there. I know that your religion isn't all you prop it up to be. Christians aren't perfect and don't try to make claims that they are. We don't go around saying that Christianity is the solution for all of society's ills. If Islam is truly that good, then why don't we find it curing all of the ills in the Middle East, for example? Why don't we find it making Europe so well? The answer is that it can't and doesn't. After 14 centuries, it still hasn't cured anything or produced a world where religious domination wasn't at the forefront of its agenda. How do you expect the inequities between Muslims and non-Muslims to produce a system that cures all of society's ills?
" Long live Islam, and long live the Shariah Law! Islam is indeed the ONE AND ONLY Solution to all of the lost mankind!"
Yes, say it long enough and it will seem true. I believe in the tooth fairy too, Osama.
"The disbelievers will not be able to turn off (extinguish) the Light of Allah Almighty and His Islam."
Continue to think that way. At least you will feel good about yourself during the day; but, that is about it.
"Allah Almighty Will COMPLETE HIS PURPOSE!"
I am beginning to think that taking extra doses of medication might not be a bad thing. I am beginning to see why people take drugs to escape reality.
"Without Islam, nothing in this life has any value!"
Too many meds? Or not enough?
How about loving they neighbor as thyself; loving your enemies; praying for those who persecute you; etc. Where do you find those kind of benevolent commands in Islam?
"I swear to Allah Almighty, I have no purpose to live without this Beautiful and Cherished and Blessed Faith, Islam. I LOVE ISLAM WITH ALL OF MY HEART!! I thank Allah Almighty infinitely that He Made me win the Divine PRIZE for choosing me to be born a Muslim. I sincerely ask Allah Almighty, and Pray to Him the Almighty, to Will for me to die a Muslim, and most preferrebly to die a Martyr for His Glory and Cause and Holiness! Ameen. "
I think that Jesus has a lot to say about that request and declaration in the end.
"The Islamophobe disbelievers have nothing but crookedness! All of them!"
Yep, us. We only use reason and rationale to see your religion as a farce. I suppose that Allah should have not given us that intellect and those deductive skills.
As a general rule, when one continually accuses another of something, it is usually the accuser who is guilty. They like to cover up their own faults, weaknesses, lies, etc. They can't stand to see them not bearing their inadequacies or guilt. I suppose that you could use us as a punching bag for a day or two.
" Indeed, long live Islam, and long live the Shariah! The only Cure and Justice for humanity."
I thought by now, your meds would have maxed out. I guess not. Oh well, we will have to put up with you for now.
Consideration for you Osama: how about putting your reply into a poem or make it your official pledge of allegiance to Allah.
Now lets get back to topic. Shall we?
Samatar Mohamed said...
" From the hadith, what I get from it is to show the importance of repentance to Allah (swt)."
The title I posted says that too.
Chapter 2 : THE OBLITERATION OF SINS WITH THE HELP OF SEEKING FORGIVENESS PROM ALLAH
"I don't think that any scholars would take it to mean that Allah (swt) actually needs sinners, but to emphasize the importance of repentance."
I agree. The scholars were not thinking along the same lines as David is; so, we shouldn't expect them to notice what David noticed. David is making an entirely different point that comes as a consequence of the passage, along with the Qu'ran. If Allah would actually annihilate people for not sinning, then it does reason that if satan makes people sin, we should thank satan for causing us to sin; otherwise, how could we escape Allah's annihilation? That makes perfect sense to me.
"And the whole thing about satan being a partner in crime with Allah (swt) is disrespectful, especially when the Quran constantly warns against satan."
It is not meant to be disrespectful since it is a logical deduction gathered from the references. You are focusing on the wrong thing right now.
"The games you are playing are not that funny, and can, and has been done to even the bible."
Well, I see what David is doing. It isn't meant that way; but, David's humor and sarcasm are used to deliver the point. It can be very easy to misunderstand David. I sometimes have trouble figuring him out.
Dear Mr. Osama,
It is really funny how moslims continue to keep insisting that Islam came to restore the original faith. Which original faith? Christian’s Or Jew’s? So let me get this straight.
1. Long long time ago, Christians and Jews knew that you can have four wives, they corrupted God’s word and changed it one wife.
2. Long long time ago, Christians and Jews received God’s word that they can have sex with their captives and can have sex outside the marriage with as many slaves as they can. However, they corrupted their faith and changed God’s word to say that sex outside of marriage is adultery and that you can not have sex with your captives and slaves.
3. Long long time ago, Christians and Jews received God’s word to fight anyone who does not believe in God and kill them However they changed it to live peaceably with all men.
4. Long long time ago, Christians and Jews received God’s word to beat their wives. But they changed it love their wives as your own body.
5. Long long time ago, Christians and Jews knew that God does not want them to take disbelievers as friends but they changed it love your neighbor as your self.
6. Long long time ago Christians and Jews knew to kill anyone who leaves Christianity or Judaism but they changed it to not kill. Rather leave this matter between the person and God.
7. Long long time ago, Christians and Jews knew that god is a deceiver, instead best of deceivers, but they changed it to that he is not.
I can go on and on. So you are saying that Allah now has restored all those things which Christians and Jews have corrupted. Well, if that is the case, you can keep your religion to yourself, I’d rather have the corrupted word of God and live and die as a Christian so that I can live in harmony with my neighbor and love everyone. One other question I would like to ask, if you don’t know what the original word or faith was, how do you know that it is corrupted?
Another thing that struck me in your post, that Islam came to restore “charity”. I am surprised that when natural disasters happen, like earthquakes, tsunamis etc etc, why is it that no moslem country is on the fore front to help. In some cases they are the last if not at all. Why is it that when one Moslem nation invades the other, it is the non Moslem nations who come to help. Doesn’t charity begin at home?
Dear Mr. Osama,
In your second post you say, “I sincerely ask Allah Almighty, and Pray to Him the Almighty, to Will for me to die a Muslim, and most preferrebly to die a Martyr for His Glory and Cause and Holiness!”
I was just wondering, if Allah does fulfill your desire to die as a martyr, how would you carry it out. Would you chose a suicide bomb attack, or fight against U.S invading armies in Afghanistan, Iraq or other countries. Or would you just follow Nidal Hasan’s foot steps? And are you sure that you will get 72 virgins?
What an obnoxious bunch of lies and deceit.
Such videos should not be allowed to float around.
Islam is the best of religions only the smart can recognise it.
Obviously this author tells lies.
Please stop it right away.
Stop this video
Saba said: "What an obnoxious bunch of lies and deceit."
Ever notice that Muslims are quick to cry "Lies!" but slow to actually point them out?
Let's review.
FACT #1: According to Muhammad, if we don't sin, Allah will annihilate us and replace us with people who sin.
FACT #2: According to the Qur'an, we sinned because Satan tempted us.
CONCLUSION: Obeying Satan kept Allah from annihilating us. Hence, Satan saved us.
MUSLIM RESPONSE: "Lies!"
Two facts and a conclusion. Please identify the lies, Saba.
John 8:24 said: "I am eager to see how Kim, Samatar, Osama and other Muslims respond to this."
Kim said: "Old refuted stuffs."
Samatar said: "From the hadith, what I get from it is to show the importance of repentance to Allah (swt). I don't think that any scholars would take it to mean that Allah (swt) actually needs sinners, but to emphasize the importance of repentance..."
Osama said: "The same can be said about the Bible...blah blah blah...Islam came to restore the original Faith... blah blah blah... I wouldn't take Islam so carelessly and so lightly like that, David...blah blah blah...You should study Islam more honestly and more objectively...blah blah blah..Herman Cain, falling apart on his sex scandals...blah blah blah.. Long live Islam...blah blah blah..Islam is indeed the ONE AND ONLY Solution...blah blah blah..The Islamophobe disbelievers have nothing but crookedness..blah blah blah"
Ha ha ha...Are these the best arguments you Muslims have got? How pathetic!!!
Arabs truly deserve a dumb faith like Islam. Dummies deserve a dumb ideology, created by a dumb man.
I used to think that radical atheists and fundamental christians were stupid, but muslims really take the cake. At least the radical atheists and christians know what they believe and have the initiative to research their facts. 85% of muslims don't even read that arabic and don't even know what's in their scriptures.
Beasts, i tell ya.
Saba Hussein said...
" What an obnoxious bunch of lies and deceit."
If this is the case, then you will have to condemn your Qu'ran for misrepresenting Christianity.
Would you like to point out the lies? It is important that we recognize our lies. It makes for a more healthy discussion.
" Such videos should not be allowed to float around."
Then neither should all of those Deen Show vids and the plethora of Youtube ones that make false assertions about other religions--specifically Christianity.
" Islam is the best of religions only the smart can recognise it."
That is ironic since I am smart enough to not buy into it. I see a history of 1400+ years of destruction from it. That is enough for me to reject it.
" Obviously this author tells lies."
Lie: anything that a Muslim doesn't want to hear or feels threatens him and his religion.
Has it ever occurred to you that Islam has been lying about Christianity ever since it began. At least our lies (if you can truly call them as such) are not written in stone like those in the Qu'ran.
" Please stop it right away."
Please show us where the lies are. That would be a good starting point.
David,
Very good catch of yet another senseless facet of Islam.
However, can the same be said about Judaism and Christianity? They don't put this notion into the words of a simpleton highway robber, but rather spread thinly over the first part of Genesis. However, the idea from the Bible and Torah is exactly the same - God creates sinful people so that he can punish and forgive them (he puts greater emphasis on continuous punishment).
@ David
I am really amazed on how much you love Muslims and you are showing them that real Allah is not who wrote Quran for it has so many errors and faults, and know that you are trying to help them ...
I hope Muslims who are seeking to know the truth by listening, searching/reading and see that Quran can not be from God ...
God bless you ...
@ Kim
the word "Eid" عيد
means "feast" and this word is not used by Muslims only ...
Non-Muslims use this word also in the Middle East ...
How come you did not give any link!
Osama Abdullah said, "I sincerely ask Allah Almighty, and Pray to Him the Almighty, to Will for me to die a Muslim, and most preferrebly to die a Martyr for His Glory and Cause and Holiness! "
David I wouldn't agree to anymore public debates with him if I were you.
The way he's talking, he might actually show up to one.
@ The Church of Rational Thinking
why don't give a reference to what you are claiming! ...
@ Osama Abdallah
David is trying to help you ...
please ... focus brother
I give you an example and I am serious about this:
David is showing that 2 + 5 = 7 and not 2 + 5 = 12
and you are saying "I love math"!
We love you brother ...
Just think about it ...
It is not about winning arguments
It is about your eternal life ...
@Baron Eddie,
Genesis, Chapter 2 and 3. The whole of the Torah and Bible after it.
Osama Abdalla said:
“I sincerely ask Allah Almighty, and Pray to Him the Almighty, to Will for me to die a Muslim, and most preferrebly to die a Martyr for His Glory and Cause and Holiness”!
To die a Martyr for Allah’s Glory and Cause? Isn’t a Muslim martyr someone who kills non-Muslims and in that process is killed? So Osama is asking and praying that Allah wills him to commit acts of terrorism?
I hope FBI is monitoring this site.
@Saba Hussein,
Only the smart one can recognize it? During the times of Muhammad, his teaching was deemed as "the religion of ignorant" by all, but the lowest outcasts of the society. The divine-less simplicity of his teaching was acknowledged by his tribesmen, educated Jews and even by a 14-year-old Jews boy who happened to hear Muhammad's teaching.
It was too primitive for the 7th century Arabia and it certainly did not improve with age.
Need evidence? Search Google for maps of modern Islam spread. Then maps of corruption index, education index, human rights and human development indexes. The first map will be nearly identical to the latter one - Islam tend to be tightly correlated with undeveloped, corrupt, uneducated and uncivilized societies.
@ The Church of Rational Thinking
What about Genesis Chapter 2 and 3?
@Church of Ratinal thinking
You're simply wrong. I'd strongly suggest you read the bible again.
NOWHERE does God in the bible/torah say he would punish people for not sinning (as is in the Koran).
Yes, God creates sinful people, so they can CHOOSE to follow him or not and have free will, and not be robots.
In other words, you're making things up. Nice try at moral equivalence.
ahhh, the muslims have 3 steps of dealing with Quranic-Hadith blunder.
Forget about the abrogation, inshallah the kuffar will forget^^
1. tell em it has been refuted.
2. point at something else.
3. death threats.
and if the three-steps don't work,
4. immigrate to another country, advertise that "islam is beautiful", marry and breed a lot.
5. look for the obvious social problem and start going "sharia" ninja.
6. rinse and repeat.
NOW WE EXACTLY LEARN THAT "ISLAM CONDONES SINNING"
Book 37, Number 6621:
Abu Ayyub Ansari reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: If you were not to commit sins, Allah would have swept you out of existence and would have replaced you by another people who have committed sin, and then asked forgiveness from Allah, and He would have granted them pardon.
thank you David, you just kicked their nuts (including Kim's).
God Bless you David!
This is truly amazing. Who knew Allah and Satan go hand in hand! Thank you Satan for saving my Muslim friends from Allah's wrath.
Seriously this is risible. Thank you David for yet another awesome video! May God continue to bless you abundantly.
@Church of "Rational" thinking
would it be a smart programmer if the programmer creates a systemic failure within it's own programming parameter knowing all the subjects in the program will commit to the failure?
Even "virus" is to make other subjects in different setup to fail, but not the virus own construct, otherwise a "dud" virus.
---------------------------------
If you put that into david's pointing "another Quranic blunder" would be easy as:
why would Allah NEED people to sin? Allah has needs? Surely Allah does NEED since he warned of wiping out the muslims if they do not sin.
Surely not to be wiped out, muslims ARE ENCOURAGED TO SIN by Allah. Plus on the repercussion side, if muslims are sinning they will spend hellfire.
In an effect, if one muslim tell me that he disapprove "sinning", it also tell everyone of us that one muslim will be wiped out by Allah.
Now here's the big question to Osama_Abdallah, emperor of the answering-chritianity:
ARE YOU NOT ENCOURAGED TO SIN BY ALLAH?
(remember that Allah will wipe you out and replace you with a far better looking sinner than yourself)
since anyway that logic brings us all to: sinning or not, ALL MUSLIMS are to spend hellfire. Now this is a religion of catastrophic blunder, systemic failure, a cesspool of corrupt thoughts.
--------------------------------
Two other examples : pride and joy of Islamic scientific and scriptural knowledge:
"Oi Kuffars!, there's a muslim wearing woman's garment hiding behind me. Come and laugh at his breast feeding fatwa"
References:
-Sahih Bukhari, 2442 Chap. 52.
-Sahih Muslim, Book 008, 3424
Wow... I never knew of such a hadith... Learnt something new today. =D
Islam is such a beautiful religion. It promotes peace and tolerance and freedom. Or, as Saba Hussein so succinctly put it: "Such videos should not be allowed to float around."
You have to love it when Muslims do our work for us.
LOL @ “Muhammad sinned like it was a SPORT” Man I almost crashed my car when I heard that one. That one made my day!
As usual, great video!
SMG wrote to Osama: I was just wondering, if Allah does fulfill your desire to die as a martyr, how would you carry it out. Would you chose a suicide bomb attack, or fight against U.S invading armies in Afghanistan, Iraq or other countries. Or would you just follow Nidal Hasan’s foot steps? And are you sure that you will get 72 virgins?
I was wondering the exact same thing! Why is dying as a martyr the best thing that can happen to Muslims, according to Muslims?? Why not die as a pious Muslim in correct service and obedience to Allah? Well the answer is obvious: Martyrdom is the only guarantee for Muslims to make it into Paradise. Osama knows that if he doesn’t die as a martyr his desired destiny is anything but certain.
Samatar wrote: From the hadith, what I get from it is to show the importance of repentance to Allah (swt). I don't think that any scholars would take it to mean that Allah (swt) actually needs sinners, but to emphasize the importance of repentance. And the whole thing about satan being a partner in crime with Allah (swt) is disrespectful, especially when the Quran constantly warns against satan.
Is that what you get from the hadith? What about the whole “if you would not sin, Allah would wipe you out of existence and replace you with people who would sin…”? Really if the core lesson and emphasis of this saying is repentance, one would think that there would be 1000 ways of putting it differently other than “if you don’t sin, you will get annihilated and replaced with sinners”. How does this hadith NOT communicate that Allah loves sinners more than people who are sinless?
This again shows the stark contrast between YHWH and Allah when it comes to righteousness. According to YHWH NOT sinning means life, while sinning means death. According to Allah sinning means life, while NOT sinning means death.
And if you think that the “partner in crime” thing with Allah is disrespectful, then don’t fault David for reading the Islamic sources and coming to that conclusion. Rather blame your sources because they are confusing and are incompatible with one another. There is no way around this problem or to reconcile any of these sources with one another, other than just denying what they explicitly say or claim one of these sources are untrustworthy. But then again the onus is upon you to prove any of those claims.
Osama the Great Abdalluh said that islam came to «the belief in One GOD Almighty and associating no partners or idols with Him, Praying, Fasting, Charity, Pilgrimage»... not very original is it?
he also said: «The same can be said about the Bible»... show us where...
@The Church of Rational Thinking
"David,
Very good catch of yet another senseless facet of Islam.
However, can the same be said about Judaism and Christianity? They don't put this notion into the words of a simpleton highway robber, but rather spread thinly over the first part of Genesis. However, the idea from the Bible and Torah is exactly the same - God creates sinful people so that he can punish and forgive them (he puts greater emphasis on continuous punishment)."
I hear what you're implying, but I would draw one big point of difference.
In the Bible, God did not create mankind with the intention that they sin, rather His intention was the opposite: That they do not sin.
He created man with the capacity to do this, He stacked the odds in mans favour and gave man a choice to abide by it.
Man chose not to.
Compare this to Islam, Allah essentially stacks the deck against humanity by insisting that man sin. If man does not sin, he will be destroyed. To compound this, it seems that Allah was incapable of doing this as he needed to provoke Satan to tempt man to sin!
In the Bible, had man not sinned, the world would not have been corrupted and man would have rejoiced in fellowship with God who dwelt with man. That has always been God's intention. Had man not sinned, things would have continued in perfection. Not so with Islam.
If man had not sinned, Allah would have kept destroying man until he did sin or until he realised "Wait...all I need is a satan!"
The primary difference is in the picture of God it presents. The Bible presents God who does not need man but for the joy of it, creates man and chooses to dwell with man. His intentions for man are borne from love. He is all sufficient and wise.
In Islam, Allah is presented as so amazingly merciful that he just MUST show this mercy and therefore MUST create man in order to demonstrate his mercy. It gives the impression of a God who is not self-sufficient but is needy and unwise, which begs the question, what more does God need?
The one True God does not need what He receives from man, but by virtue of His being God He is absolutely worthy of it and it would make no sense to give it to another. In fact it is a dishonour to Him.
To sum it up simply, Islam or at least the teachings highlight here present a god who is insecure. The Bible presents a God who is All Mighty.
Saba Hussein said "Islam is the best of religions only the smart can recognise it."
One problem with that do you believe this imam is smart? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWOGAuBOrBY
Obviously we get the impression that the he thinks the name is not derived from the word pepsin which it used to used to create the drink but some crazy conspiracy. If we have imams who say this and they are suppose to be the leaders of these "smart" people and can't disprove the original fact and try place in their own theory.
If imams are smart by those standard, compared to us who strive to disprove one theory then repesenting our own theories. We must be Einstein by those standards.
@ The Church of Rational Thinking
Dude, God did not create man to sin against Him. If He had why would He have bothered warning Adam about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? He would simply have kept mum about it, waited for Adam to eat it and then say, "Aha! You have sinned."
No, man CHOSE of himself and by Satan's seductions to disobey and sin against the Lord. Even this day, no one is born a sinner. One becomes a sinner when they sin; we do not sin because we are sinners, we are sinners because we sin.
If anything, blame parents for not properly bringing up their children and the lusts that people habour in their hearts. For even in the Bible (sorry, I cannot remember the exact reference but it's in one of the Epistles in the NT) we are told that man was created to serve God not to sin against Him.
So, without prejudice, you have something wrong.
@ Osama Abdallah
Please, we do not seek to besmirch you in anyway. It is definitely not about who is right or wrong or who wins the argument. It is about finding out exactly what the True Lord wants us to do in His Truth and in His Spirit. We love Muslims and it is our prayer that you come to the redeeming grace of Our Great Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. No matter how long it takes, by God's Good Grace.
God Bless
Hi David,
Thanks for your ministry :-)
you are such a blessing and funny
keep doing what you do, you are a light to those who hesitate and those muslims who seek the truth
every blessing
ania
Well, if according to Muhammad, if we don't sin, Allah will annihilate us and replace us with people who sin, then could this be the reason why Allah command Moslems to sin in the quran by allowing them to murder non Moslems, commit adultery, beat their wives, fight anyone who is not a Moslem etc etc. Could this be the reason why Allah allow sin even in his presence in janna by allowing Moslem men to commit adultery with seventy two virgins. Could this be the reason why Allah is best of deceivers himself so that he couldn’t annihilate himself?
Brother Osama,
I always look forward to the posts of yourself and other Muslims since you quite a few times give some quotes (context and logic be damned) but you make an attempt. But at this latest, hilarious but logically sound edition of "Islam exposition" by Maulana David Wood, you had actually NO refutation.
I am disappointed that you are going the way of "Kim" just spouting rhetoric again and again in Caps and BOLD thinking that such posts will prove you right.
I feel sorry for you and the numerous Muslim brothers and sisters I interact with who choose to hide their head in the Arabian sand and just say "You Misunderstand" or "You are wrong" or "You are misquoting" or "you are not quoting in context" without EVER answering the all pervasive question "HOW"...
Have some integrity like the Maulanas who end with "Muhammad said it, I accept it and thats the end of it".
Quoting David "I don't accept Muhammad's teaching is the truth but lets speak about the truth of what Muhammad taught".
In Christ
Naren
Dear Saba,
A lot has been said regarding you comment, “Islam is the best of religions only the smart can recognise it.” I just want to reiterate a few points. Do you have to be smarter then a fifth grader to recognize that:
1. wife beating is wrong as your quran states. Sura 4:34
2. adultery is wrong as your quran states. Sura 4:24
3. fighting anyone who believes differently is wrong as your quran states. Sura 9:29
4. Marrying a six year old girl is wrong as your prophet did.
5. earth created in 8 days is wrong as your quran states. Sura 41:9-12
6. sun does not go down in muddy pool of water as quran states. Sura 18:86
7. etc, etc, etc.
Please, if you are smarter then a fifth grader, then you will realize that quran, mohammad and Islam are not true.
There is still hope to find peace with God thru his son Jesus Christ. You will find love, peace and intelligence thru our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. All you have to do is ask.
James 1:5: “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.”
Naren, when i see osama's posts I envision him screaming on the top of his lungs with his eyes closed and both hands covering his ears. I can relate to what you say about those muslims you refer to.
I would like for JUST ONCE a muslim to answer this with actual reference to back it up. If David is wrong about this THEN by all means show us PLEASE. You CANNOT and that is why you don't, period!!! Another thing that really upsets me is when Christians and Jews get put down like the comment on Cain as though they are sinless, well I hate to bust there bubble but all fall short of the Glory of God, and that includes them!!!
This video is so powerful that I cannot stop thinking about its mighty message.
May God bless you, David!
Wow. Another great video David. May God bless you.
Osama and Kim, at least try and post some sort of response. Provide sources, links or anything.
This is just getting plain embarrassing for you guys!
By your posts it is plain to see you are hurting. Come to the Lord Jesus only He can heal you.
Nakdimon said :Naren, when i see osama's posts I envision him screaming on the top of his lungs with his eyes closed and both hands covering his ears. I can relate to what you say about those muslims you refer to."
I don't. I envision him just as I saw him when he did his abn debates: vapid look. The antichrist spirit he has does the talking/typing.
(If anyone doesn't know what I mean by vapid...imagine someone with botox but it never wears off)
Wat a revelation. David tanks so much 4 dis revelations. Am learning daily.
Osama said" Islam came to restore the original Faith! The restoration of the original Faith's Name, Islam, the belief in One GOD Almighty and associating no partners or idols with Him, Praying, Fasting, Charity, Pilgrimage, and so on."
One God? That is an absolute lie, because although Islam hypocritically preaches the oness of allah, he does infact have an uncreated partner - the koran, and a created partner Mohammed. Mohammed's name appears shamelessly besides allah's in most mosques and muslim homes and even in the Shahada itself.
Muslims should ponder on these "associations" before they point fingers.
No Idols? Muslims bow down 5 times a day before a cube idol in the dessert, and push and shove to kiss a black shattered rock in a wierd vigina shaped encasment. Do you not see idolatory here?
Osama says"....so much that now everything about GOD Almighty has to be in a trinity, which ironically we don't even find the word anywhere in the Bible!"
I can't believe the ignorant rhetorics of Osama when he resorts to the age old Muslim swan-song about not finding the "word" Trinity in the Bible?
Mr. Abdullah can you please point out the precise surah in the koran where the word Tawheed is found?
David’s (PBUH) videos remind me of the following: “At noon, Elijah began making fun of them. "Pray louder!" he said. "Baal must be a god. Maybe he's day-dreaming or using the toilet or traveling somewhere. Or maybe he's asleep, and you have to wake him up.” (1 kings 18:27).
I must say I am feeling embarrassed for the Muslims. On top of that, the bloggers are challenging the Muslims for a cogent response with proper references.
What Osama fails to realise is that he and his fellow muslims are commiting the fallacy of Tu quoque in so many ways
@ Naren, Quoting David "I don't accept Muhammad's teaching is the truth but lets speak about the truth of what Muhammad taught".
Amen to that Sister!!
Osama is ight that the word TRINITY does not appear in the Bible but the IDEA does.
In MATT 28 Jesus DECLARES the Trinity according to JUDAISM
The article is in FRENCH but you can translate it with GOOGLE TRANSLATE
http://translate.google.com/
HERE IT IS
http://www.avraidire.eu/2010/10/jesus-a-annonce-la-trinite-dans-levangile/
"I don't accept Muhammad's teaching is the truth but lets speak about the truth of what Muhammad taught".
I am being a bit nit-picky; but, this is now I would phrase it.
Since I don't accept what Mohammad taught as being the truth, let's therefore speak the truth about what Mohammad taught.
STILL no response from the Muslim side..... the silence is deafening!!!
Have y'all noticed it?
I do not understand why Muslims keep failing to regard all the warning signs.
Muhammad made all this up, and he hadn't think it all thoroughly. Why did 1.5 billion morons keep going 5 times a day knowing that Islam filled with:
-war
-murder
-rape
-gender based teaching
-unfair inheritance
-sex, sex and sex
-breast-feeding fatwa
-cross-dressing prophet
-scientific B.S.
-concept of heaven filled with houris (somekind of mechanical sex toys? or sudden creations made for men?), young boys, wine and earthly stuff.
now: -muslim encouraged to be sinners.
are you still looking for more evidence? go ahead!
and to Osama Abdallah:
Even if Muhammad risen from the dead (which he cannot) and say "dude Islam is a joke, I made it all up"...
you will still not going to believe it and stay blind. Why would you even consider defending a lost cause and hoping someday a better explanation will come and wiped out all David's arguments?
There is one thing I keep forgetting to say.
Dear Dr. Shogun,
A big thank you for your hardwork and dedication. Praise God for people like you!
Stay Blessed in Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Sole Saviour.
PS. Cool avatar!
For all you guys who loved the video ...watch at 03:32 where David has put the clip of "Jerry Macguire". I don't know how many of you got the joke but in true context in the movie, Tom Cruise rushes to the home of Renee Zelwegger where there is a party going on. He says "Hi" to her and then comes up to apologise and towards the end says an emotional "You complete me" to which Renee says "Oh shut up, you had me at Hi".
In David's ripoff, after this clip David quips "Oh Shut up, you had me at slay the infidels wherever you find them"... I got this correlation the first time around and doubled over with laughter... I was eating at that time and you can just imagine the mess created after that...
Great Job David... True to your promise to Osama who ran away from the debate series... I remember you promising him "Now on, we will post a series of irrefutable posts on Muhammad and Islam". True to your word, NONE of the so called Islamic supporters have come up with anything except "You will burn in hell".
Good Job... May the good LORD bless you and keep you.
In Christ
Naren
All I can say is THANK YOU VERY MUCH for this good analysis. May all turn to Jesus at once and follow his righteous path to perfection and holiness.
You are what you worship.
If you place your soul in the revelations of an arrogant, bloodthirsty thug, then you will never rise higher than that.
"STILL no response from the Muslim side..... the silence is deafening!!!
Have y'all noticed it?"
RESPONSE:
Nakdimon, My responses to David will be via videos. Like Walid Shoebat, I am doing to expose his points and ignorance, AND SOMETIMES DECEPTION (purposely ignoring quotes that he knew) in great details.
In the Bible, we read GOD Almighty MADE people fall, He sent lying spirits to deceive, and He Willed for things to happen. Genesis also insults GOD Almighty by saying He is a spooked GOD from a mere ancient "skyscraper", which is nothing like the towers of today:
Genesis 11:1-9
The Tower of Babel
1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
2 As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.
4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building.
6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, ***** THEN NOTHING THEY PLAN TO DO WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM.
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.
9 That is why it was called Babel —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
Visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible_scientific_absurdities.htm
We also read about Holy Birds Idols in the Bible, in the Holiest Temple (The Jews' equivalence of the Muslims' Kaaba):
Exodus 25:1-40, Exodus 37:1-9, Exodus 26:1-20, Exodus 36:8-19, 1 Kings 6:11-38, 2 Chronicles 3:1-17
Visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/abrogation_in_bible.htm
********David Wood has grown too big, and it's time to bring his tower down, because if we don't, then "NOTHING HE PLANS TO DO WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM!" :)
As to the Muslim's Kaaba and the kissing of the black stone by the Prophet, the black stone was a asteroid sent from Heaven to Abraham to determine the location of where the Kaaba to be built/raised. This is why the Prophet kissed it. It doesn't make it holy in anyway shape or form. The Prophet Said (and I quoted this in Arabic before here for David):
"ALLAH WOULD PREFER FOR THE KAABA TO BE DEMOLISHED THAN FOR ONE DROP OF BELIEVER'S BLOOD to be spilled unjustly."
So, so much for the black stone being worshiped by Muslims lie. Go check your Bible on the Holy Winged Creatures in the Holy Temple. See above.
Now does that address and refute all of the arguments presented here? I believe it does. And again, my refutations will be in videos to David, because if I don't, then then "NOTHING HE PLANS TO DO WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM!" :>)
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com
This just illustrates the vast difference between the God of the Bible and the god of Islam.
1. The God of the Bible does not tolerate Sin at all, He is Holy and only excepts Holiness. Unholy fallen human beings need a means to be Holy and acceptable before Him. That means is Jesus Christ.
2. Islams god is inconsistent regrading Sin, in one sense he forbids it and punishes it, yet in another sense he sweeps it under the rug if a person performs certain rituals, even if the one performing the ritual is Sinful and the deeds are contaminated with Sin.
3. The first example puts all the glory, honor, and might on God alone, it is He that provides redemption to helpless human beings who can do anything to justify themselves, they are Sinners saved by His Grace..He gets all the credit they get none.
4. The second example is muddled, Allah forgives but Man acts, so ultimately mans fate depends on how much he acted and if Allah wants to forgive. So the credit is shared between the creature and creator, Sinners have something to take pride...in their deeds and striving, their god is obligated to reward them salvation based on their Sin stained imperfect actions.
1 and 3 will only appeal to Sinners who God gifts to recognize their true reality..desperate Sinners in need of a savior.
2 and 4 will appeal to Sinner who don't think they are really lost Sinners, who's Sin is not that bad, who think they can still offer God a bribe, who are full of pride and conceit, religious hypocrites hiding behind religious cloths and dead lifeless repetitious rituals.
Thanks David great point, (still have to clean my table and half of my keyboard) this will teach me drinking while watching your vids LOL...
There is something I want to get off my chest, and maybe you can run with it, knowing the Islamic sources better then myself..
No intercession in Islam.
One point is made that no being can make "intercession" in front of allah the "stoned-gawd" on behalf of another. IOW one can not ask allah to have mercy on someone. Well it seems every Muslims on the face of God's green earth when muttering "peace be upon him" (meaning of course MoHAMmel) are doing just that. They can't be asking Shatain/Iblis or Satan to give peace to the profiteer so who else is left but their demented sick deity? Every Muslim acts as a "intercessor" in front of allah.....
@ the in house Muslims" who honor the Sharia: You do know that these "laws" were written several centuries by men who 1. never could claim to be messengers 2. had no way to conform or discuss anything with Mohammel 3, and mostly had to rely on oral reports.
Now one Muslim here made the point that Jews & Christians "corrupted" the OT and the NT.
Now given the fact that frail and error-prone humans passed on the koooraan as well, how can we be sure that it was not corrupted too. especially when some Muslim make the claim that their book is being "misused" to "excuse" terror-acts.....
@ Osama:
Osama you typed a lot, but you did not ADDRES THE point! By now most readers here will know English is not my first language, but even I understand:
" If you were not to commit sins, Allah would have swept you out of existence and would have replaced you by another people who have committed sin, and then asked forgiveness from Allah, and He would have granted them pardon."
So please which part of "IF YOU WERE NOT TO COMMIT SINS" you do not understand?
And this is the POINT! Does allah want people to sin or not?
And do not come with "the hadith" is unreliable (as it is done so many times!) If you ppl toss out any and ALL hadiths which are "incorrect" mistaken or wrong, then in the end Muslims will have nothing left. Also I pointed out: your demented stoned-gawd claimed to have send the Bible, so if there are any mistakes in it, take it to this lunatic.
Besides kissing and rubbing the stone was done PRIOR in the "heathen days or days of ignorance" it was not something started by MoHAMmel.
Osama Abdallah said:
Genesis also insults GOD Almighty by saying He is a spooked GOD from a mere ancient "skyscraper", which is nothing like the towers of today:
Neither exegesis or a sensible conclusion from the teachings of God's word can produce this lame response.
The holy God of the bible in His justice inflicted the men of the city the way He saw fit. In comparison to today's skyscrapers, He could do the same again if it were His will. But He is God, and doesn't need you to tell Him, that in comparison He is inconsistent. You demonstrate again rebeliousness against him by insisting that he MUST do it again. God is not tame. He does what he wishes.
Genesis 11:6 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
This verse is beautiful. Who are the "us"?
This verse points to the beautiful triune nature of God.
IHS,
@Osama:
Your said: We also read about Holy Birds Idols in the Bible, in the Holiest Temple (The Jews' equivalence of the Muslims' Kaaba)
And you are right about some Creatures being mentioned in those passages. The way i read it, the Cherubim (כְּרֻבִים) are mere decoration and in no way have anything to do with idoltary. It never says, that somebody should worship them and at no point in the bible it is prohibitet to place decoration somewhere - god even orders it to do, as you see in those passages mentioned. The Cherubim by the way are some kind of guardian angels that carry out some special duties - like guarding the Paradise after the fall of adam and eve (Genesis 3,24). They are heavenly creatures and as long as nobody prays to them, i see no problem here! It is also not forbidden to make pictures of cherubim, it is only forbidden to make pictures of god ... so no trespassing of orders here again.
I bet some other people here can go deeper into the details.
S.1:1 In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful...3 The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,..7 The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.
That's some build up. How does Allah deliver on this?
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. ‘O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.’ Then Adam said to him, ‘O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?’ So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses," the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611)
‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father’s loins. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle as saying:
Verily Allah has fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he of necessity must commit (or there would be no escape from it).
(Sahih Muslim Book 033, Number 6421, 6422)
Oh!
Just how was Allah being "Entirely Merciful" when the cards were stacked against Adam 40 years before he was created?!
Why do Muslims stone adulterers to death when all they are doing is what Allah ordained for them to do, before they were created?
I doubt any Muslim would care to tackle this one.
ANOTHER BOMB FOR YOU!
Further more on Exodus 25:1-40, Exodus 37:1-9, Exodus 26:1-20, Exodus 36:8-19, 1 Kings 6:11-38, 2 Chronicles 3:1-17 about the Sacred Winged Creatures in the Temple:
1- Jews are prohibited from building any image that resembles any creation that is "EITHER ON EARTH OR IN THE HEAVENS" (Exodus 20:1-6, Deuteronomy 5:1-10, Leviticus 19:3, Leviticus 26:1) Yet, in their HOLIEST TEMPLE, they are to build Sacred Winged Creatures from gold and wood.
******HERE IS THE BOMB!
2- In David's Psalms, we read:
"I will bow down TOWARD (IN THE DIRECTION OF) YOUR HOLY TEMPLE and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"
David's Psalm was written during the Jews' Holy Temple that had the Sacred Winged Creatures (birds, lairs or what have you) in Exodus 25:1-40, Exodus 37:1-9, Exodus 26:1-20, Exodus 36:8-19, 1 Kings 6:11-38, 2 Chronicles 3:1-17. *****SO THIS MEANS THAT THE JEWS BOWED TO A TEMPLE THAT HAD GRAVEN IMAGES OF LAIRS/BIRDS IN THEM!! AND THEY WERE CONSIDERED SACRED TOO!
At least Islam came to destroy all of the idols in Mecca that were defiling the House of GOD Almighty, because the House of GOD Almighty was GOD's and not the pagans, even if they defiled it for many centuries before the coming of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Remember a day to Allah Almighty is like a 1,000 years to us. *****But in the Bible, the Jews were commanded to bow before Sacred Winged Creatures!
Refute this one if you can!
Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/kaaba.htm
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com
@All Christians
Indeed another good point exposing the islamic concept of god. HOWEVER i must add at this point that CALVINISTS TECHNICALLY CANT SUCH MUCH AGAINST this since the logical outcome from predestination wld be similar, ONLY perhaps WORDED differently. This is one of the reasons why i consider it so absurd and dangerous at the same time.
NOW i know even most/many non Calvinist Chritians who reject predestination wld generally accept tht GOD ALWAYS KNEW everything INC the outcome of choices made by free moral agents. Although ive stated be4 thti dont agree with such and GOD can well limit His own knowledge LETS GO AHEAD WITH THIS ARGUMENT for now and see whether one can still be saved from falling into the debts of having to technically accept predestination. THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE IS whenever someone creates something WHILST ALSO KNOWING the outcome of the created being BEFORE it's being created OT at the time of it's creation, THEN the one creating is effectively RESPONSIBLE for all the outcomes of the creation. WITH THT SAID ive currently thought up two possibilities to solve this problem WHILST maintaining GOD knowing the actions of His created free agents. 1) GOD limited Himself from knowing the moral choices which wld be made be His free agents BEFORE HE CREATED THEM(OR RATHER THEIR SOULS) AND DURING THEIR CREATION but immediately allowed Himself to know all again AFTER having created them(as u can see this is not yet GOD knowing). 2) This only ever came to my mind spontaneously today. It is possible that GOD THE FATHER ALWAYS knew wht all souls, being free moral agents, wld choose BUT NOT GOD THE SON WHO LIMITED HIMSELF. On the other hand GOD the father did not actively take part in the CREATION OF THE SOUL which He commanded and left for GOD the Son to do. GOD the son then randomly generated, WRT HIMSELF, the "order" in which to create souls. HOWEVER NOTE THT this works only if we define a PERSON, NOT A BEING, knowing the outcome of his/her creation, being responsible. In the case of a "person" then GOD does not technically bare any responsibility and yet in His Being always had full knowledge of even the free moral agents' choices. Id appreciate ur input.
@Osama
So according to you God is not allowed to punish people for their arrogance? Problem with your argument is that
1. God did not decieve them he only changed their language. Unlike your Allah who claims he decives
2. No where in the bible did God say to the people I live in the sky that can be reached by a skyscaper. Its only people at the time had the idea he lives in the sky.
3. Genesis 11:6, it is refering that because of them being able to speak the same language and that the unity can cause them to cause great evil or great good. But because at that time they are arrogant enough to think that they can enter heaven by their own means and through earthly methods and not spiritual methods.This shows there unity is commiting evil
As you can see there is a BIG differance between God claiming to live in the sky and the people thinking God lives in the sky. So your logic is rather Illogical
By the way, Osama You are yet again qouting random bible versus not related to this topic. Try to be a bit more consistant in the topic of this post.
Also even if your claims in the bible about abrogation is true which we refuted many times. you will still be commiting the fallacy of Tu quoque, which makes your argument hypocritcal. You are again proving your logical fallacy to me again Which is hilarious despite me putting it up in previous posts and suggesting to you to stop failing in your logical reasoning.
So now you you will be qouting other parts of the quran that opposes the idea of what David said.
What You fail to realise is that it only confirms our argument that the quran is inconsistant and Allah can't make up his mind and making his word not eternal because he keeps changing it. If you tried to reinterpret it then your Allah is not very direct in his own words is he?
"We also read about Holy Birds Idols in the Bible, in the Holiest Temple"
Hey Osama Your argument is badly researched, where did any of the versus say in any of them that the jews directly bowed to those so called "birds" in the temple or at the ark. They are more of decoration, we don;t bow to them unlike muslims who bow at the kaaba.
Even If they bowed to the ark. Are you telling me that I am not allowed to bow before the words of God? Because the ark contains the ten commandments.
Osama there is a BIG DIFFERANCE BETWEEN the ark and kaaba.The Ark is used to carry the word of God in them and shows the reverance that it is due and a place of worship/communicate with god. so its more what i would call a mobile church during the time of moses.
Kaaba on the other hand is just a big black rock that was supposedly sent to Abraham and does not carry the word of God.
we can see that in the functions that they are fundamentally different. Thus your argument is a very weak one.
Your response refuted nothing to do with this topic.
I just refuted the all your claims which is relevant unlike you.
@ david
great work, when osama's video comes out make a video on how illogical his claims are in more depth then what i did. I need a several good laughs near christmas
OMG OSAMA, You made a huge post and you couldn't even refute one of David's calims? you just made a silly trick trying to change the subject with the Bible, but for the sake of argument, let's suppose the Bible is WRONG so Judaism and Christianity is false, it doesn't mean Islam is true then, i thought i would know better. Also if we consider your prophet's absurdities in the hadiths and Quran (like the sun hide place, or the missile stars,fly's poison in the wings etc etc) you would have to reject Islam too, SO WHY ARE YOU A MUSLIM? WHY DON'T YOU BECOME ATHEIST? LOL!! BTW: The bable tower argument you made it's easy to refute, but i will not help you to change the subject, i wanna see your answer to David.
PS: If the bible is corrupted then why Allah told your prophet to ask the Jews considering they had a book saying ppl could make a tower to reach heaven ? It must be hard being a muslim trying to defend Islam with decent arguments.
Also Osama quoted a hadith saying Allah prefers the KABBA to be destroyed blah blah Hipocracy blah blah. Can i ask, how do you know that Hadith is true and it is not a false "jew" Hadith trying to make you destroy the "holy" rock?
Also i don't think that hadith doesn't mean you do not worship it, if that Hadith is true, it only means that XXI century muslims worship it with more desire than they should (yet it is worshipping a black stone)
Also how do we know that Abraham did built that cube? i mean thats is only in a Hadith and not in the Quran right? How do you know that Hadith isn't false and Jews wanted you to sin worshipping a stone so they created this Hadith too?
@Osama Abdallah
DANGER DANGER!! DANGER DANGER!!A Muslim is trying to interpret the Bible, I repeat A Muslim is trying interpret the Bible means, this is not a warning!!!
Hide ya Kids, Hide ya Wife, they make Jihad on everybody in the projects!
Osama Osama Osama
I expect alot better answers from you but you are continuing to validate our claims on muslims by giving us these types of answers we get from you.
here is a list of stuff to do
1. keep it on topic
2. make sure it is of revelance to the case you are presenting. because the stuff on cherubs were incredibly lame. Because no where did it say jews bowed to it
3.stop commiting the fallacy of Quoque again and again dispite how many times we tell you. Otherwise your argument is really weak.
Osama’s response reminded me of the recent post entitled Muslim Debate Tricks. WINNING DEBATES FOR DUMMIES: A Guide for Muslims to Win Debates with Ten Easy Tricks
13. Attack Christianity! You can pick any random point that you can remember. It need not be related to the issue at hand and there is no need to know anything about the matter. Just pick up an argument that you found online on some Muslim websites.
14. Jump to another topic.
15. Claim victory even if you are badly beaten in the argument!
16. If nothing works revert to personal attacks. Call people bigots and islamophobes! Throw insults such as "female dog in heat". Swearing is allowed. And don't forget to blame the Jew!!!
Osama is following this guide faithfully. What a pity, you guys can’t intellectually defend your prophet and Allah!
Osama you idiot! That's the ARK of the Covenent!!!!
And going with Cristo's argument, he's right. If the bible is wrong (it's not) it doesn't make the koran right. As a matter of fact, it makes the Koran WRONG too because it appeals so heavily to the bible for authenticity of mohammed's prophethood.
So if the BIBLE is wrong, the koran is wrong and Mohammed was NOT a prophet.
Islam stands or falls on Mohammed being a prophet.
Therefore you have no religion or even basis to critize the bible or christianity because your koran and prophet are false too.
Osama also ignored the fact that God manifestly dwelt in the Holy Temple (in the form of thick clouds of smoke).
And the Ark of the Covenant has the Mercy Seat on top of it, which also acts as a sort of throne seat.
So, the Jews of those days bowed to the temple because God literally dwelt in the Holy Temple...
Does Allah dwell in Mecca, inside Kaaba, sitting on the black stone? Is that why Muslims bow to the Kaaba, the black stone and kiss/embrace the stone?
@ Osama, Can you refute the TOPIC without two stepping? You muslims love to twp step!!
Osama said: "At least Islam came to destroy all of the idols in Mecca that were defiling the House of GOD Almighty."
Nope. You still have a few to go (black rocks, etc.).
And while you're at it, get rid of the Quran and all its irrationality too.
Yep regardless of what Osama says they bowed to a black rock. its a big differance if the ark contain the word of god and where god dwells amongst his people.
Like others have said is allah or his word inside the black rock? nope, big differance.
By the end of the Day of playing passing Your "BOMB" around. The "BOMB" is dropped back in your face and you are now getting burnt by it, from all your response.
IF you don't want to be burnt from what you said do a proper comparison and research before trying to answer us and stay on topic :)
@JohnyKZJ
if you want to pound on Calvinism, go ahead and write to :
deestilo@yahoo.com
We've been taking up space, I don't think our previous discussion is relevant at all to the topic.
D335
It is amazing how this Muslims is desperate to avoid the point: his allah wanted man to sin.
So I know now that he will not give a answer to the point. Instead he goes on a wild-goose chase. Speaking f.e. about the "day of allah" being 1.000 years.
Qur'an 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Qur'an-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning
Qur'an 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years.
But even if the day of allah would be 50.000 years it could not jive with our scientific knowledge making the Universe much older.
As to the "idols" in the Jewish Temple SO WHAT if this was indeed true? First it was YOUR stoned-gawd allah who told Moses how he wished the Temple to be. This Temple is NO LONGER existing, so this is irrelevant. Jews (and this seems to be your point) can NO LONGER PRACTICE Idol-worship (IF THEY ever did they got punished anyway) in a Temple in Jerusalem your demented MoHAMmel claimed to had visited during the night...
To repeat: This Temple IS NO LONGER open to SERVICE! It is gone! Replaced by other buildings one which is a Muslim mosque "marking" the allegedly spot from where your profiteer climbed a ladder up to heaven! Or was it the starting point of the flight. if Muslims scholars just could make up their minds!
What is relevant is how Muslim practice their "faith" today!
But if a Christian Pakistani touches a ARABIC Koran then he/she can go to jail, if not loosing the life. Now is this not making a BOOK into a Idol? Muslims killed people simply because they dared to criticize your profiteer. Is this not "idol-whoreship" par excellance?
Especially in light of fact that NO Muslim ever claimed that MoHAMmel was of "divine" stock like Jesus who Christians claim to be the incarnate God.
Burn a "ENGLISH/GERMAN/FRENCH" book with the "Title" Koran, Muslims all over the world go bananas, (if they hear/read about it) RIOT and KILL! To them a lousy book is more IMPORTANT than the LIFE of a HUMAN being, even if this human is a Muslim who happened to be in the "wrong" sect.
Blogger Osama Abdallah said...:
[quote:]
"I sincerely ask Allah Almighty, and Pray to Him the Almighty, to Will for me to die a Muslim, and most preferrebly to die a Martyr for His Glory and Cause and Holiness! Ameen.
quote\]
So this Muslim wants to die as a "Martyr" it seems to be a great desire of his.
Now when Israel killed 9 Turks, some of them had also expressed their desire to die as "Martyr" the whole Islamic world up to this day went bonkers. Turkey demands "blood-money" and apologies for this. When in fact Israeli soldiers simply fulfilled the heartfelt wishes of Muslims. In fact should not the families of Muslims Martyrs be "thankful" to the "infidels" for FULFILLING the deepest desires of their relatives. And then there is another point: Allah determined who will go to hell and who will not. So if Muslims have a problem with how their fellow Muslims died through the hands of the infidels should they not take this up with their allah?
I know my responses here will have no effect on you, in fact I type this so that other readers here can learn also, just like I learn from their input.
I am not sure what to think of this video. Cause I think christianity and islam share almost the same view on this. I am not a muslim, nor consider myself christian. I just think David is cutting some corners here..
Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast all whose names have not
been written in the Lambs book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the
creation of the world.
The Lamb that was slain.. slain for what? The sin of man. So we can conclude God knew man
would sin against Him. He created sinful people. God needed sinful people so that the Lamb Jesus would pour out His grace, the grace of Gods mercy, the forgiving of sin.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more
So.. sin was needed, agree? Then.. who told Eve to sin against God? That’s right, satan..
Well, you can figure the conclusion.
Leo said: "I am not sure what to think of this video. Cause I think christianity and islam share almost the same view on this. I am not a muslim, nor consider myself christian. I just think David is cutting some corners here.."
I'm still surprised that so many atheists are so sloppy in their thinking on this basic point.
The response they give amounts to this: "In Christianity, God knew people would sin, and he made them anyway. And he planned ahead of time to deal with it. Hence, it's the same thing as Islam, where God wants people to sin and would destroy them for not sinning, and Satan rescues people by convincing them to sin."
I'm not sure Leo or his friends will be able to understand something as simple as an analogy, but we'll find out.
Before my children were even born, I knew they would eventually sin. Does this mean that I wanted them to sin? No, I didn't. I wanted them to do the right thing. Would I have destroyed them for always doing the right thing? Not at all. Instead, I would have been overjoyed. But I still knew that they would do wrong, and when they do wrong, I'll always be there to help them turn things around.
Simple, right? In Christianity, God knows we will sin, and he takes steps to make us holy again. Somehow, in the minds of people who are desperate to attack Christianity whenever possible, this is the same thing as God wanting us to sin and threatening us with destruction if we don't.
I'm sure Leo & Co. think they're doing a great job attacking Christianity. But they're doing a better job confirming it (by showing, through their irrational attacks, that people are actually in rebellion against God).
David come on, didnt mean to get you upset. But you reaction is a bit out of proportion to what i wrote. Well indeed maybe i am too simple to understand some things. But why the hostile response, i don't get it. Only because i didn't say amen to your video?
Why calling me an atheist, sloppy, Leo and his friends, Leo & co, irrational attacks. Whats this all about, do we know each other that you can say this of me?
I am not desperate to attack. Dont i have the right to express myself?
Nowhere did i mean to attack christianity.
Have a good day
@ Osama Abdallah [Part 1]
"Refute this one if you can!"
Alright, shouldn't be too hard.
"ANOTHER BOMB FOR YOU!
Further more on Exodus 25:1-40, Exodus 37:1-9, Exodus 26:1-20, Exodus 36:8-19, 1 Kings 6:11-38, 2 Chronicles 3:1-17 about the Sacred Winged Creatures in the Temple:"
As some people have correctly pointed out, with the exception of Kings and Chronicles, those scriptures refer to the Ark of the Covenant, not the Temple.
"1- Jews are prohibited from building any image that resembles any creation that is "EITHER ON EARTH OR IN THE HEAVENS" (Exodus 20:1-6, Deuteronomy 5:1-10, Leviticus 19:3, Leviticus 26:1)"
Leviticus 19:3 is not a reference to this so I'll exclude it, but read the actual text of Exodus 20:1-6:
'You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.'
Note that God first gives the command and then clarifies what He means. He is not saying "You shall not make for yourselves any carved image of ANYTHING AT ALL" so He clarifies by explaining what He specifically means.
But look at the rest of the command:
'you shall not bow down to them nor serve them'
In other words, worship them. He's not prohibiting making any likeness of anything but rather prohibiting crafting a likeness with the intent of worshiping and serving it!
[TBC]
@Osama Abdallah [Part 2]
[Cont]
"Yet, in their HOLIEST TEMPLE, they are to build Sacred Winged Creatures from gold and wood.
******HERE IS THE BOMB!
2- In David's Psalms, we read:
"I will bow down TOWARD (IN THE DIRECTION OF) YOUR HOLY TEMPLE and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"
David's Psalm was written during the Jews' Holy Temple that had the Sacred Winged Creatures (birds, lairs or what have you) in Exodus 25:1-40, Exodus 37:1-9, Exodus 26:1-20, Exodus 36:8-19, 1 Kings 6:11-38, 2 Chronicles 3:1-17. *****SO THIS MEANS THAT THE JEWS BOWED TO A TEMPLE THAT HAD GRAVEN IMAGES OF LAIRS/BIRDS IN THEM!! AND THEY WERE CONSIDERED SACRED TOO!"
This is one Jew, David, saying he will bow. Now indeed he was not the first nor the last to do this. They bowed in the direction of the building, yes, but does that constitute bowing down to engravings and sculptures and worshipping them? David did not say "I will bow down toward your Holy Temple and praise the Cherubim and bulls and pomegranites for their faithfulness" the intent of his worship was towards God and God ALONE.
Now let's use some logic and common sense. Muslims bow down and pray towards Mecca. How many actual idols do you reckon are in the path between the Muslim who bows down from say the US to Mecca? Hundreds? Thousands? Are Muslims therefore worshipping these idols because they're in the same direction? Of course not.
"At least Islam came to destroy all of the idols in Mecca that were defiling the House of GOD Almighty, because the House of GOD Almighty was GOD's and not the pagans, even if they defiled it for many centuries before the coming of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Remember a day to Allah Almighty is like a 1,000 years to us. *****But in the Bible, the Jews were commanded to bow before Sacred Winged Creatures!"
God's house? See, the Bible says:
'God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.' Acts 17:23
He can manifest His glory there, sure, but dwell? No. 1 Kings 6:13 says:
'And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake My people Israel'
God's house is His elect, and He now dwells in the hearts of His people.
The earth and all that is in it is God's, yet Earth is His foot stool, not His house. Do you seriously think a block of stone in the Meccan dessert is worthy of being called God's house? What has been defiled? Nothing, for idols are nothing and that stone building is nothing.
"Refute this one if you can!"
By His Word and by His grace, I believe I just did!
Leo
"So.. sin was needed, agree? Then.. who told Eve to sin against God? That’s right, satan."
Your argument runs something like this.
Some nations are at peace with each other. One of those nations decides war is needed so they build some bombs in order for them to show how peaceful and kind they are. After bombing a friendly neighbor they say they did this to prove they are, "Entirely Merciful!"
Allah started the fire because Allah wanted to prove how "Entirely Merciful" Allah is! Had Man not sinned Allah would have gone out of the way to make sure that he had.
Having read the Genesis account of the Fall I see God telling them not to sin, not making them sin.
It's noticeable that you started in Revelation and pulled a few selective verses out of their context. Interesting because Satan does this also: John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil. You want to obey your father's wishes.
"From the beginning, the devil was a murderer. He has never obeyed the truth. There is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his natural language. He does this because he is a liar. He is the father of lies.
Matthew 4 is one such example.
"He created sinful people."
There's not a single verse in the Bible to back this slanderous statement. Man was created in God's image. Since God has no sin this would contradict Genesis 1:26.
@Leo
whoa, hold on there horsie!
So you threw a couple of verses and you get the job done right and rode off to the sunset?
I could also falsely concluded that you were originated from monkeys according to Darwinism, while all believers descended from Adam's.
You like that "monkey boy"?
-----------------------------------
Now,
Revelation 13:8
Do you consider the police needs criminals so they can still have a job, or doctors want all people to be sick so they can still got a job? or God needs sinner, so He can punish all sinner all day long in Hell? That's satan's job dude.
That's not only fallacy, but you my friend are the fallacy within the fallacy, you are the best fallacy!
Ephesians 2:8
Romans 5:20
Would you specified which part that God forced us to sin? or "make us" do sin?
sin increased, grace increased all the more?
Your hair decreased, so you use less hair gel, therefore you "need" to buy some more hairgel?
Nice conclusion, wrong from here to Timbuktu.
You drew a conclusion from premises that do not support that conclusion by confusing necessary and sufficient conditions.
D335
@ Osama Abdallah
First, I would like to summarise David's premise and your response for the sake of clarity.
David's premise states that if a person does not sin Allah will wipe that person from exeistence and replace them with someone who will sin and therefore have cause to ask Allah for forgiveness. His conclusion is that we should be thankful that the devil incites us to sin or else we would be erased from existence for the 'sin' of 'NOT sinning'.
Your response is that the God of the Bible "made people fall, He sent lying spirits to deceive, and He Willed for things to happen". So basically, you seem to imply that He caused people to sin as well.
Now, ignoring the Ad Hominem Tu Quo Que fallacy and the copious Red Herring that accompanies it, let us analyse your claims.
1. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 tells us how Micaiah warns Ahab that a lying spirit had been authorised by God to deceive Ahab into riding to war and, ultimately, to his death. But here is a catch. If you were going to deceive someone would you tell them, "I am about to deceive you"?
Ahab was warned! Did he listen? No. But if God really wanted to deceive Ahab, why would He have told Micaiah to tell Ahab about the lying spirit? You have twisted the context and logic of this Biblical story.
It is evident that, although God sought to punish Ahab and send him to his death, He still warned him about it. And we see that in verse 16 of that same chapter, Micaiah reveals that the Lord had said that the soldiers should not go to war.
It seems evident that the Lord wanted to indicate that Micaiah was His only true prophet before Ahab and that all the others were deceiving him. As for those false prophets, it comes as no surprise that a lying spirit was sent to them for the Lord gives in abundance that which we choose to have.
2. Of course the Lord wills things to happen and causes people to fall. But He causes to fall all who refuse to give Him His due and worship Him as God. However, man still has a say in the matter. Here is an example:
Exodus 32 tells us how the Israelites fashioned out a golden calf to worship. Verse 7-9 tell us how God became furious and sought to wipe them out and make Moses the ancestor of a great nation. However, we see in verse 11-13 how Moses chose to plead on behalf of the Israelites before God. Now, Moses could have decided to let God's will be done and watch while the Israelites were wiped out but instead he CHOSE to beg the Lord for mercy.
Man still gets to choose. Ahab could have chosen to not go to war but instead he chose to disobey God. Those false prophets could have chosen to turn back to God in humility but instead they chose to keep on in their lies. Pharaoh could have chosen to heed the warnings from God and let the Israelites go but he chose instead to ignore the warnings and even chose to go after the Israelites after letting them go.
In all, it is just as Jesus said in the New Testament that, though evil must come, woe to the one through whom it comes. (This is all I will say here concerning this statement of Jesus but if you would like me to elaborate please let me know.)
To be continued...
@ Osama Abdallah continued
3. Genesis 11:1-9 says nothing about God being 'spooked from a mere ancient "skyscraper"' but it is you who have said it. We all know that just as man is capable of great good, he is also capable of great evil and tends more toward evil than good. Now, imagine if these people had committed some great act of evil after realising the might of their union and, consequently, their abilities. The Lord, most probably, would have had to deal thoroughly with the lot of them (perhaps, even wipe them out completely); and this would have been just a few generations after the flood.
It, therefore, seems more likely that Lord was more afraid of what He might have to do to them than of what they might have ended up doing and so scattered them before they could cause their annihilation.
4. Concerning the winged creatures on the Ark of the Covenant, once more, it is you who have called them "Holy Birds Idols". Let me define some terms before I continue. (All definitions, except the last, are from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary [6th Edition, 2001].)
a) IDOL - (1) a person or thing that is loved and admired very much; (2) a statue that is worshipped as god.
b) IDOLATRY - (1) the practice of worshipping statues as gods; (2) too much love or admiration for somebody/something.
c) IDOLISE - to admire or love somebody very much.
d) GRAVEN IMAGE - an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone (as defined by http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/graven).
Now, did the Israelites worship the creatures as gods? Did they worship the statue at all? Are we told in the Bible that the Israelites loved and admired the statues? Are we even told that paid ANY attention to the statues? Was the temple built for the "graven images of birds" or for God? Even as you say that the Kaaba is the House of Allah and not of the pagans, so also was the temple the House of Yahweh and not of the winged creatures.
So, under scrutiny, sir, your claims fall flat. Those statues would have been graven only if they were worshipped as gods.
In conclusion, even though the Lord tests us all (or allows us to be tested) from time to time, the God of the Bible still gives us the chance to choose for ourselves what we will do. Allah, on the other hand, doesn't even give you the choice to be sinless. It is sin or cease to exist which, my dear friend, is very very wrong.
God Bless.
Dear Mr. Osama,
I know that you are not that stupid. However, if you keep following a stupid religion, you will keep making stupid mistakes. For example, which inteligent person believes that a fly carries an antidote to a disease on its wings? Only if you believe in Mohammad, you will spend your life time to prove this stupidity to be true. This is just one among hundreds of other stupid things.
How many times you have been refuted? How many times you have been told to stay on the topic? How many questions have been asked of you regarding what you have said on this post? Have you answered any one of them? Instead, yet once more you are using a stupid tactic which is, if you cant answer the question at hand, start attacking the Bible.
My point in saying all this is this.
There are seven things that God hate the most. One of these things is pride. It is hard to reject a religion which you have believed in for so long. Pride might come in the way to reject islam. You might say, what will people think, what will my family think, what if my fellow Moslems kill me if I reject Islam.
But this is matter of your soul and spending time in eternity. Don’t let come pride come in the way. I invite you to the living God. There is only one way to eternal life and that is Jesus Christ. Mohammad couldn't same himself and he is not going to save you either. If you believe in Jesus Christ, you will not have to spend your entire life proving stupidity to be true. You will find true peace and joy in the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope that not only you, but kim and others who read these posts would come to this conclusion. Remember, one day every knee will bow before Christ and every tongue will confess that He is the Lord. I would like you to be among the ones who will rejoice when they bow and confess before our Savior. I say this with all honesty and in love.
All honor and glory and praise be to our Lord, Savior and Redeemer Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't know if the atheists to comment are being intentionally dishonest. Yes, it seems like they haven't thought about this very deeply, but then they're posting their thoughts on essentially a Christian forum effectively asking for correction.
There are some Christian positions, like supralapsarianism, where God first decrees to save some people and not others and then decrees to make people, effectively meaning that people are made so that God will have people to sin and save.
I'm not saying it's a true position or a good one, nor that it's a bad one - my point is just that it's the most extreme view that I know of held by Christians.
Notice a few things though. Firstly, in this view, there is no question of "if you don't sin". God wills men to sin, and all of them do. Every single one. If you do not sin, it does not mean that God will replace you with someone who will, bur rather that God has elected you to salvation through mercy. Secondly, even in this extreme view, God does not threaten to destroy you if you don't sin, and in fact the opposite. God threatens to destroy those who do sin, and in fact authorizes the fall specifically so that there will be people to destroy for their sins and people to save from the destruction their sins deserve. So you own your sin nothing, as sin has given you absolutely nothing but death. Lastly, in this view you do not have any choice in the matter - you are fallen because God has effectively removed from you the grace to live a morally upright life, and therefore you cannot be morally upright until he restores that grace to you. Should you sin? No! But the only way to void sin at all is to turn to God for mercy.
I'm not a hadith scholar, and I have no idea if the quoted hadith represents a something Muhammad "really" said or not, or if it represents anything in Islamic theology, but so far no Muslims have challenged the hadith, so I can only assume that it is at least authentic. According to this hadith, God wills for men to sin similarly to a supralapsarian view, except in this view God threatens you that if you do not sin he will destroy you and replace you with someone who will. So your continued existence is because of your sinfulness. You owe your life to your sin. Implied in this is that you might decide to stop sinning and be perfect, so Allah is here reminding you that it is important to him that you sin so that he can show you mercy. So should you sin? Yes, because you have a choice in the matter, and Allah has said that if you do not sin he will destroy you and replace you because Allah wants you to behave in a way that he can show mercy to.
So comparing even the most extreme Christian position to this Islamic hadith, the argument of David is not reproduced. In the Christian one, God vows to destroy all sinners, authorizes for all men to fall such that now the only way for anyone to not be considered a sinner and destroyed is through his mercy. You still exist because God is bearing with you despite your sin. In this hadith, God vows to destroy all sinless people and threatens you to sin so that he can show you mercy. You still exist because you sin, otherwise he would wipe you out and replace you with someone who will sin.
Now, this extreme view of Christianity is very far from common or orthodox and I'm not advocating it as a rightful view, I'm just trying to point out that even in extreme interpretations of the Fall, you do not have a God who threatens to destroy you if you don't sin. Maybe the situation that you do have in this view isn't much better (I for one would never hold to this view), but it is different from the situation that David is criticizing in the hadith.
I hope that was helpful to any nonbelievers thinking this same situation applies to Christianity as well.
In Christ,
John Lollard
Leo said: "David come on, didnt mean to get you upset."
Leo, I don't think you could upset me if you tried. This is a debate site. People (whether atheists, Muslims, or Christians) generally have thick skin. So everyone has thick skin and feels free to respond without holding back.
If you're going to come here misrepresenting Christianity and trying to deflect attention from Islam, you shouldn't be overly sensitive when we respond.
Leo: "He created sinful people."
No he didn't.
Sin and Satan were necessary to the foreordained fall of man but they were made to come to pass in such a way that God is not made the author of sin. Romans 9 deals with this.
The idea that the biblical God would destroy people who don't sin is contrary to his justice. This idea would be abhorrent to Christianity.
The possibility in Islam shows that Allah is "free" to act in any way he chooses; he is not held to any idea of what is right or wrong that derives from his being.
@Toll
Yeah, I guess I went wrong there. I assumed that because God is all-knowing He knew man would sin, therefore I concluded He willfully created sinful people. But I suppose it has something to do with our free will. I guess that if man hadn't sinned, the Lamb Jesus would be there but wouldn't have died for us. Jesus in the flesh was just a precaution.
Oh and David I did understand and did like your analogy with the kids. But you shouldnt be so patronizing for no reason. Everyone is different, I am not all the atheists or all the muslims.
@Leo
"Everyone is different, I am not all the atheists or all the muslims.
and so what are you?
2nd, I don't think David reprimanded you in a violent manner, in fact, he was clear about his examples and very very far away from using profanities.
If you want to be involved in apologetic field, what David did to you was soooo forgiving, in fact none. If you see apologist like Nadir Ahmed you've see what aggressiveness is all about.
D335
D335, what a totally bizarre thing to say. Leo brought up an issue, and he did so rather humbly in my personal opinion. He was wrong in his argument (and his admittance of as much is further evidence of his intention), but he at least quoted to Bible to show where he was coming from. I would hope that in "apologetic circles" that claim to honor the God of mercy, unmerciful behavior wouldn't be seen as a kind of norm.
Jude 20ff
But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
1 Peter 3:15-16
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
Does Leo speak maliciously against our good behavior? I don't know that he does, but if he did, I doubt he'd now be ashamed of his "slander".
The Christian response to an unbeliever commenting on how disproportionate and rude a Christian was in responding to him should be something other than "deal with it, we could have been worse, you're lucky you got off so easy". Something like "I inappropriately attributed to you malicious motivations that it seems you did not have, I apologize for doing so, but I hope my response was still made clear."
That's what I'd say anyway.
@Leo - if it's any consolation, that's similar to how he responded to me when I asked a similar question on another video. I think it's just his way.
In Christ,
JL
@Leo
Perhaps God will repeat the experiment just to see if your predictions come true :)
Billy said: "Osama’s response reminded me of the recent post entitled Muslim Debate Tricks. WINNING DEBATES FOR DUMMIES: A Guide for Muslims to Win Debates with Ten Easy Tricks
13. Attack Christianity! You can pick any random point that you can remember. It need not be related to the issue at hand and there is no need to know anything about the matter. Just pick up an argument that you found online on some Muslim websites.
14. Jump to another topic.
15. Claim victory even if you are badly beaten in the argument!
16. If nothing works revert to personal attacks. Call people bigots and islamophobes! Throw insults such as "female dog in heat". Swearing is allowed. And don't forget to blame the Jew!!!
Osama is following this guide faithfully. What a pity, you guys can’t intellectually defend your prophet and Allah!"
I am happy to see Billy use my comments on the Muslim debate tricks post! :-) I actually made some of these observations first during my interaction with Muslims at Speaker's Corner in London. Later I found that they hold true of almost all the Muslims who defend Islam. I think these should be among the top 10 tricks! ;-)
Leo,
David needs to be patronizing in order to do his job well. Once you've debated enough Muslims you'll see why.
John Lollard thank you for your kind response and giving me the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it is because I am not (yet) a truly convinced Christian and having a background in islam I can look at these things kind of objectively, so I tried to use David’s arguments on Christianity as well. Although there were some flaws in my reasoning. Surprisingly enough it actually did gave me a deeper insight. How simple David’s analogy might have looked about his kids, it’s a very good one. God didn’t want us to sin, but in case we did He had taken his precautionary measures.
@Ogunitracy, yeah I suppose this hardcore debating stuff isn’t my cup of tea, it would probably leave me with sleepless nights. But it is good there are strong voices like David that stand out for Christianity. Although I do think that with sometimes a little bit of gentleness you can win hearts and minds.
And let us not forget that there are 1.5 billion muslims, maybe not all of them fanatics, but there is something about islam that keeps attracting people to it with passion and perseverance.
Excellent video. David seems to be getting better and better at interpolating video clips, too. (I love his humor, but I worry it might be making some nasty enemies for him. However, the humor arguably aids hugely in the power of the arguments, and maybe possible martyrdom for Christians is just part of the territory of dealing with Islamic fanatics.) And it looks like David's cut out a lot of what appeared to me to be cockiness in some of the other videos. I think perhaps the less cockiness, the better (except where the cockiness is not real, but feigned as a kind of self-mocking caricature and therefore comedic).
The humor is wonderful.
Outstanding!
And those were ahadith I hadn't seen and was amazed by.
David always comes up with the most revealing angles of view, even if he's far from perfect and once in a while makes an error.
From this webpage:
http://www.love2learn.net/literature/studyquestions/pereland.htm
...there is a Latin phrase Felix peccatum Adae. It is from one of the ancient hymns of the Church and it means, "O happy sin of Adam." After the redemption, the Church dares to even rejoice in Adam's sin because God was able to make something even better come out of the first disobedience."
Superficially, the above seems similar to the ahadith cited by David. But the difference is that (even apart from the fact that this is merely a hymn and we don't know how authoritative a view it was within the Church) we are not told that God wanted Adam to sin. Nor that God would have destroyed Adam had he not sinned. We are only told that, after the Fall of Man, the Incarnation and Resurrection give the Fall a happy aspect, in retrospect. If there had been no Fall, there would have been no crucifixion and Resurrection. "Adam" was, initially, innocent, but not free. Christ teaches individual freedom, through love as the most important law. You can't force someone to love you. Love comes from the innermost core of a person. "I can't make you love me if you don't. I can't make your heart, do somethin' it won't..." Therefore a religion based above all on love is based above all on individual freedom -- and individual responsibility. That's a responsibility not answerable to any earthly authority, any fixed code, or even to any book, but only to the living spirit of truth (which might shine out to us uniquely from a particular book, but still, the living spirit of truth is above any book).
Leo and John Lollard,
If David was wrong to answer to you as he did, here's a theory about why that could be: You have to realize that David has put himself in the middle of a maelstrom of people attacking his arguments and his character frequently. That seems to go with the territory of being a big blogger. Leo, imagine you go into a bar, and you see someone in a corner of the bar fighting a dozen people at once. Now imagine you go up there, and suddenly approach the guy who is taking on a dozen people at the moment you approach him. You can imagine he might not realize you are different from the dozen people he's trying to fend off at that very moment, and he might throw a punch your way. You've perhaps seen the movies where someone innocent walks into a brawling bar, and because he's standing in the wrong place at the wrong moment, gets punched out. If you walk into the middle of a war zone, and you are not a combatant, better announce yourself, carry a white flag or something. So if David was wrong, maybe we should correct him, but also cut him a little slack because he's in a difficult position.
I don't quite understand why top bloggers seem so rarely to admit to any possibility they were mistaken. Maybe it's like politics. If you admit to error, your enemies will forever use it against you. Maybe no one will take you seriously if you don't always stick by your guns (even if you don't always know what you are shooting at). Maybe being on top means being in continual battle mode, so you must never let down your guard publicly or admit publicly to error, or do so as little as possible. Or maybe being at the peak, above all the others, means you get really really attached to being so high up, and maybe one starts to covet that feeling of being so very special, so much so that whenever anyone says anything that might make you less special, that might even for a moment take you down a notch to everyone else's level, you don't like it, not one bit, and so you do whatever you can to deny that imperfection, not necessarily intentionally or consciously, but just because you've come to measure your self-worth on how exceptional you have become. Or it could be that you've established a reputation and a living based on that reputation. It's almost like your property, and you feel you have a right to maintain that reputation, its yours, you've built it over a long time, it's like something separate from who you are, separate from any truth, it's just business, and it's your business, and you are going to maintain that reputation, because truth is something you keep separate from business. Business is business.
I don't think the business part is true of David, and as for the other stuff, I haven't the foggiest. I've never met David and know about him only what everyone else knows who reads his writing and watches his videos.
However it may be, I'm thankful for David's brilliance and remarkably in-depth knowledge of Islam.
Leo, you said, "there is something about islam that keeps attracting people to it with passion and perseverance."
A large part of has kept attracting them was that Muslims have virtually never heard nor were permitted to hear any criticism of Islam (until the very recent advent of the internet and global communications). Those who criticized Islam were crushed. If you never hear criticism, then naturally an unquestioned faith will seem to many to be a worthy repository for all hopes, trust, and dreams. Islam isn't really a "faith," though, because the majority of the worlds' Muslims probably do not question it at all, or if they do, that is a very recent development. No, most Muslims think Islam is simply an obvious fact, as obvious as their own noses, though that attitude is corroding more and more with exposure to global communications. "Faith" is connected with freedom, and that's why Islam is not precisely a faith. Perhaps it's a collective form of perception, a paradigm completely unconscious of itself, a pre-individual, pre-modern mode of organizing mind.
The notion that one has the unadulterated, unquestionable truth is naturally something that one would tend to defend with great persistence, even if the notion were in fact unwarranted.
It is now about a week and a half and I don't see any valid response from the Muslim side (Kim, Samatar, Osama etc). They seem to be happy to move on to the next topic. Therefore I conclude that Muslims accept defeat here and acknowledge that Islamic Secret Santa and Savior is Satan himself!!
1. Could this whole topic in any way be related to some of the 32 pathways of the Kabbalah? Just a thought.
2. A muslim has explained to me that it is an Arabic idiom to speak in this way and it doesn't literally mean what is translated. (i.e. it loses meaning in translation due to being an idiom....and yes I know that just about everything in the Quran 'loses in the translation'...)
Your a wanker david wood
http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html
Mr Wood is Not reading the Quran, Hadith & Ijma' & Qias Ulama' completely, he is cherry picking & making conclusion out of his own speculation, Totally NOT Disciplinary of Islamic Study. Get yourself corrected by the true understanding, Satan is actually saving you from getting the Mercy of Allah by tempting you to continue sinning & ignoring the Allah's chance of Forgiving you when you beg for His Mercy.
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Allah made Human (like Jin) is subject to commit sins. Sinning is out of free will (Allah granted Free Will to both Jinn & Human & both creatures accountable for the sin they committed), seeking for forgiveness is also out free will as well. Once human has sinned due to Satan temptation, Satan tempts human to continue sinning & continue ignoring Allah's Mercy (which the sinner SHOULD immediately seek for Allah Mercy by begging for Allah Forgiveness before death occurs, human doesn't know when is the Death).
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When the human death happens while the human are committing sin, Satan is Happy & can bring the human to Hell-fire for spending an eternity with him in Hell-fire. Allah has granted Satan his gain, check the Quran yourself. Also Islam specified categories of Sins, check out yourself.
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Satan is NOT saving you from Allah Wrath. It is Allah himself who wants to save you from His own Wrath. But you choose to ignore the Chance of asking for Allah's Mercy. Because you are continually carried away by Satan's temptation because Satan wants you to commit sin & continue sinning until you die, An INCOMPLETE MOVE brings Allah Wrath, a painful destruction.
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While Allah made you subject to committing sin by your own free will & Allah wants you to seek for forgiveness from Him immediately . A COMPLETE MOVE. When Death happens after Allah's forgiveness brings Allah's Reward of Eternal Pleasure. It is all about the Risk of Ignoring Allah's chance for you to seek His forgiveness. Do you understand ? .
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Once you sinned (Allah allows Satan choice to tempt you & also allows your choice to get tempted & commit sin), then you SHOULD immediately ask for Forgiveness from Allah the Most Merciful, because you don't know when is your death, only Allah knows. (There is a high Risk of you going to Hell-fire after you die). Once you grab Allah given chance of seeking for His Mercy, Then only Allah would forgive you. Do you understand ?
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Once you sinned, Satan wants you continue sinning, Satan wants your death happen while you are sinning, so you have ignored Allah given chance for you to choose seeking for Allah forgiveness immediately...therefore you go to Hell & spend your eternity in Hell with the Satan who successfully tempted you to continue committing sin in the first place. ...Do you understand the Pain & Risk of your own wrong action ?
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