Thursday, October 20, 2011

Response to 1MoreMuslim (and an Introduction to Logical Fallacies)

Wow. 1MoreMuslim is actually challenging me on a version of the Problem of Evil (which happens to be my field in philosophy). Welcome to Philosophy 101, 1MM.

When someone presents two alternatives as if they are the only options, and then demands we choose one or the other, he has committed a logical fallacy known as the "Fallacy of False Dilemma." As an example, consider a nonsensical challenge posed by 1MoreMuslim (an excellent source of logical fallacies):

David Wood believes God does not torture Babies.
We know Babies face torture everyday: by diseases, natural disasters, starvation...
So we have to conclude one of the two conclusions:

1/ David Wood's God has no control over what happens in our world.
2/ David's God doesn't exist in reality. he is only in his imagination.

Which one is it David?

Ironically, 1MoreMuslim posts this silly alternative in the comments section of a post about him deliberately distorting Craig's position. It's as if 1MM is saying, "Not only can I distort Craig's view, I can also throw logic out the window!"

To even begin a response, I have to point out that 1MM has committed an additional fallacy known as "equivocation," whereby a person changes the meaning of a word in the course of an argument. Normally, when we use the word "torture," we're referring to, say, restraining a person and deliberately inflicting intense pain in order to elicit a desired response (e.g. a confession). For instance, 1MoreMuslim's prophet Muhammad tortured a person name Kinana in order to find out where some money was hidden.

This is obviously the meaning of "torture" in "God does not torture babies." To say that God does not torture babies means that God doesn't hold babies down, inflicting intense pain in order to elicit a desired response.

But in the sentence "Babies face torture every day," the meaning of "torture" suddenly changes to simply "intense pain" (i.e. "babies face intense pain every day").

So according to 1MoreMuslim's dictionary, if a person experiences intense pain (from disease, hunger, etc.), the person has been "tortured." Strange definition. But let's grant 1MoreMuslim's equivocation and move on.

Here are the facts (stated without equivocation).

(1) David Wood does not believe God tortures babies.
(2) Babies endure intense suffering every day.

If 1MoreMuslim wants to defend his false dilemma, he'll first need to defend:

(3) Allowing someone to experience intense suffering is a form of torture.

I'm not sure how 1MoreMuslim could possibly defend (3), but any defense would have astounding implications. For instance, take any randomly selected starving person in the world. 1MoreMuslim probably has the ability to feed the starving person. But 1MoreMuslim doesn't feed the starving person. Hence, via (3), 1MoreMuslim has "tortured" the starving person. What an evil man 1MoreMuslim is! He's torturing millions of people around the world. 1MoreMuslim is worse than Hitler!

But perhaps 1MoreMuslim can attempt to corner God by modifying (3) to:

(4) Allowing someone to experience intense suffering without a morally sufficient reason is a form of torture.

Here 1MM could argue that, since human beings are limited in various ways, we have a morally sufficient reason for not preventing the suffering of babies. That is, someone like 1MoreMuslim is limited in resources (e.g. limited money, transportation, food, etc.), limited in intelligence (e.g. limited in his ability to solve problems), limited in knowledge (e.g. knowledge of people who are starving), and so on. Hence, we may be inclined to excuse someone like 1MoreMuslim and not accuse him of torturing babies when he doesn't feed them. God, however, isn't subject to such limitations, and so 1MM may claim that God has no excuse for not intervening.

Alas, even if we grant (4), 1MoreMuslim would then have to defend:

(5) God has no morally sufficient reason to allow babies to experience intense suffering.

But how could a creature of limited intelligence (such as 1MoreMuslim) ever be in a position to defend (5)? In order to know whether God has reasons for allowing babies to suffer, 1MM would need to have access to God's mind. Indeed, he would need to provide a convincing case for:

(6) If God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing babies to experience intense suffering, 1MoreMuslim will be aware of those reasons.

Now I challenge 1MoreMuslim to defend (6), for every philosopher in history who has tried to defend such premises has failed miserably. But 1MM needs to defend (6) if he wants us to consider his initial dilemma (i.e. either God has no control over our world, or God does not exist). Until then, we have to regard 1MM's argument as a silly attempt to deflect our attention away from the discussion we were already having.

91 comments:

Zack_Tiang said...

To add, I think 1MM would also have to defend why Allah allows 'torture' of babies around the world dying of starvation too.

D335 said...

@Zack Tiang

Islamic POV: fight those who do not believe in Allah. Q9:29

easy, Allah will question the babies and if they do not answer "we will be Allah's helpers", Allah will feed them "air". Verily, Allah is generous indeed.

Zack_Tiang said...

@D335:

Nice one. Haha.
Yes, indeed Allah is generous and loving.

mkvine said...

Did 1MM become an atheist all of a sudden? This is how atheist argue against God.

Naren said...

I wonder what was 1MM thinking when he posed these queries. Does Islam version of planet earth not have babies feeling intense suffering?

But, David... one word to you... BRILLIANT... In your usual snide sarcasm mixed with humor but on on a foundation of nothing less than SOLID LOGIC.

I encourage all to read Dinesh D'Souza's book "What's so great about Christianity"... awesome book with a wealth of information. He has also covered these problems posed by atheists and other religions on Christianity... he has uncovered many fables going around in the guise of "truth"... please do go through it.

In Christ


Naren

search 4 truth said...

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)

search 4 truth said...

@ Kim


1. I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of God in vain.
3. Keep Holy the Lord's day.
4. Honor your Father and Mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness before your neighbour.
9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.



10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods



Qur'an 8:1 "They ask you about the benefits of capturing the spoils of war. Tell them: 'The benefits belong to Allah and to His Messenger.'"

033.027 And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.


Bukhari:V5B59N360 "The total number of Muslim fighters from Mecca who fought at Badr and were given a share of the booty, were 81. When their shares were distributed, their number was 101. But Allah knows it better."

Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The captives of Khaybar were divided among the Muslims. Then the Messenger began taking the homes and property that were closest to him."

[Bukhari 2.14.68] And the women of the Khybar were distributed among the Muslims, records Ibn Ishaq.


Bukhari:V5B59N541 "When we conquered, we gained neither gold nor silver as booty, but we gained cows, camels, goods and gardens."


FALSE WITNESS!

Consider previous revelation championed by both Moses and Jesus.
"You shall not bear false witness" [Exodus 20:16, Deut 5:20]
"The Lord detests a lying tongue, a lying witness who testifies falsely" [Proverbs 6:17,19]



Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."

search 4 truth said...

continued:


You shall not covet your neighbour's wife!

This is when sura 4:24 was revealed! Which is rape and adultery. The captives were married!

Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur'anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

Tafsir al-Jalalayn 4:24

{ وَٱلْمُحْصَنَٰتُ مِنَ ٱلنِّسَآءِ إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَٰنُكُمْ كِتَٰبَ ٱللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُمْ مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُواْ بِأَمْوَٰلِكُمْ مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَٰفِحِينَ فَمَا ٱسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَٰضَيْتُمْ بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ ٱلْفَرِيضَةِ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً }


And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp


تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn 'Abbâs 4:24



(And all married women (are forbidden unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess) of captives, even if they have husbands in the Abode of War

So in these examples Mohammed and Allah broke Commandments #10, #8, #7 and #6.

Shall I go on? I think I will leave these for you in order for you to start lying for your God and false Prophet, deny reality, deny your scholars, deny your Sahih Hadith.

Sophie said...

Ought we conclude from this that 1MoreMuslim believes that Allah *does* torture babies?

Fernando said...

Dear search 4 truth...

yes! It would be great iff you could present here a list off the breaking, by muhammad, off (I bet) all the commandemnts... can I do something to help you in doing so? I'm bery busy in this time off the year, butt would do my best...

God speed!

SGM said...

@ 1MM

1MoreMoslim states that "David Wood believes God does not torture babies" and draws two conclusions from what he sees around the world in regards to what happens to babies.
His first conclusion is that David’s God does not have control since 1MM observes torture of babies every day in different forms. David has done a great job in explaining what torture means so no point dragging this further.
But for a moment lets say that 1MM’s second conclusion is true. If it is then it also must be true that in absence of David Wood’s (true) God, 1MM’s (false) God Allah must exist. Given that babies face torture everyday: by deseases, disasters, starvation…., does that mean that Allah is causing all the torture? He must. Babies and adults, as we see in the Hadith and the Quran. Allah agrees that moslims can rape captive women (sura 4:34) inspite of the fact that their husbands were still alive. Rape is one of the worst torture you can inflict on women. Muhammad tortured Kinana to find where his money is. Muhammad orders to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf and if you say that Killing is not tortour then I don’t know what torture is. And the list goes on and on.
Now from this, we conclude that Allah is ultimately responsible for all torture. But we also know that the true God can not torture his created being in the true sense of torture. Therefore, all torture can not be from God, instead it has to be from Satan. Does that mean that Allah is Satan. I leave that upto you.
If then torture is from Satan, then Allah does not exist. If Allah does not exist then David’s true God must exist (which he does). And as he does exist, then he does not torture his created beings in the sense we human beings understand torture.
He does however brings his judgment upon the people when they don’t obey his commandments. Now 1MM, you can not understand God’s judgments unless you first understand God thru his Holy Word. Now would be an excellent time to trust the true and living God of the bible.

jonnykzj said...

Hi everyone and David Wood,
I've been following your blog alot lately and must say you're doing a great job exposing orthodox islam. Also in regards to the problem of evil, this is an issue i'm also with you and never understood the atheists objection to it precisely coz one cannot know God's mind AND MAY I ADD how does one even know a baby is actually good or bad? SURE we humans have to ASSUME THT but say if a baby was demon posessed OR worse say it's soul has already gone n all tht left IS A DEMON OR a DEMON DISGUISED AS A BABY? Now ofcourse unless one has solid evidence tht this is the case one cannot do anything to babies or children. In Moses' time though one can argue tht since God was DIRECTLY PRESENT and He showed ACTIVE MIRACLES WHICH WERE APPROVED AS TRUE BY THE GREATEST SKLEPTICS/MAGICIANS OF THOSE TIMES(just like James Randi would be today), THEN IN SUCH CASE you'd have accurate evidence and killing specified babies woudnt be a problem, RATHER COUNTER INTUITIVELY the opposite i.e. NOT killing them wld be one? Has anyone ever thght of tht?

jonnykzj said...

Oh io just wanted to add. I think there'd be one great way to show which religion is the true one and that is to show the EFFICACY OF PRAYER VIA STATISTICS. I perfectly understand the aburdity of atheists for example saying "why doesnt God just grow back a limb on praying for it to be so". I think knowldgable Christians understand God operates SYSTEMATICALLY. Otherwise why would He make sure there are doctors OR WHY HAS HE MADE US WITH CELLS WHICH FOLLOW CERTAIN CHEMCIAL LAWS in the 1st place? SEE thts wht ive been wanting for Christians to claim for so long as replies but somehow i havnt heard any yet. ANYWAYS back to the test. We'll distinguish beleivers even into denominations or sects such tht we have for example sunnis, shia, prtotestants, evangelcals, catholics, baptists, quran alone muslims, etc. Each will engage in the same GENERAL KNOWLEDGE TEST and logic tests WHILST RECITING THEIR PRAYERS BEFOREHAND. It will be made sure tht ALL have access to information n all get the same time for preparation. THE CONTROL GRP wld be atheosts/agnostics whod also be taking the same test. AS ANOTHER CONTROL qw´´we cld have the same grps of religious folks doing the same tests BUT WITHOUT reciting the prayer. THEN we shld see the grp closest to God with the hioghest result n the ones farthest with the lowest. hows tht?

jonnykzj said...

Oh dear David I wanted to get your opinion on the following as well.
I'm sure you've heard about hermaphrodites i.e. people born with both male and female organs. WOULD GOD'S LAWS of marriage apply to them too? Infact would any law relevant to any male/female human in general apply to them or can one consider them having a seprate set of commands tht we dont know off as do angels or other conscious creatures of God?
IF SO what about gays and lesbians WHO RE by current scienitific research STRUCTURALLY DIFFERENT INTERNALLY from the common male/female as well? COULD IT BE that when the Bible says "when a man sleeps with a man...." it means those who are TRULY STRUCTURALLY men choose to copulate with men it's a sin BUT NOT IF THEY ARE ACTUALLY SIFF AS R MANY, NOT NECESSARILY ALL THOUGH, GAYS SUCH THT "GAYS" R NOT MEN IN THE BIBLICAL SENSE AT ALL? That wld solve alot wldnt it?

The Purple Marquise said...

Wow! 1MoreMuslim! I didn't know you are an atheist!! Or maybe you aren't an atheist but you believe that Allah exists and actually DOES torture babies?!

So which one is it 1MoreMuslim?

1. Are you an Atheist?
or
2.You believe in an evil God who torture babies?

D335 said...

@search 4 truth.

This is what I think about Islam from outsider's view.
Again not Christian's view.

"Every tafseer, every interpretation, every verse that was shown, are an advertisement campaign. So beautiful that Islam respect women's right, abolish slavery, religion of tolerance, believing a peaceful community and a wonderful afterlife.
But when the product is not as good as presented, suddenly the scholars screams for OUT OF CONTEXT!, IGNORANT!, YOU MUST READ IT IN ARABIC, EVERY TAFSEER MEANS EVERY MISINTERPRETATION!. I begin to believe that is it the main course of Islamic Theological teaching in the Saudi or Al Azhar, Egypt.
Those who dares like Anjeem Choudary, dr. Zakir Naik, even Maj. Nidal Hassan directly claim that Jihad means to eliminate the enemy of Islam /those who believes not in Allah. I believe that these men are not hyprocrites, they are telling the truth about Islam."

Now from a Christianity perspective:
"Islam has a Judeo-Christianity root, but NONE of the teaching of Islam reflects the prophets as explained either in Bible or Torah.
And the worst thing is since they cannot explain that, simply stated that Al-kitab and Tawrah has been replaced! Words changed, Kalimah removed.
While Christianity suffers from growth during the dark ages, when bible was not allowed to be translated, but Christianity flourish! Everyone today even the muslims can read the bible! Moral conflicts been discussed and has been rebutted from mistranslation of the past! By what? The scripture itself!
And that for Islam has been the same 7th century all over again.
When Jesus did not boast of scientific findings, Islam advertise itself as the breakthru of science! Yet we can see the fruit of science and technology today in Islamic states."

Can you see the problem with the religion advertising today? I'd like to hear your input.

jonnykzj said...

@David Wood and also any other Christian who'd like to plz explain the following to me.

1) I can understanding God taking upon Himself sins like blasphemy where we have ONLY offended Him or sinned against Him alone. BUT what about when we murder or steal someone? In that case we are also in debt to the person's family whom we've killed or the ones we've stolen from? SO HOW is it justice in this case that God just take those sins upon Himself without compensating the victims?
Also what about if the victim happens to be a disbliever whilst the offender a repentant believer? Will the victim's family go to hell n receive no recompense, e.g. less heat or flames, as compared to others in hell who've not been violated in this life? which brings me to my next point:

2) Is there a spectrum or continuum in Christianity such that the more good you do whilst believing in Christ THE CLOSER UD BE TO GOD after judgement day and also are there various degrees of hellfire for disbelievers depending on how much bad they've done vs the good?

Farhan Qureshi said...

Hey David, I read this article and I understand how you are trying to argue against a Muslim in this situation, especially when Allah would equally be responsible for the pain and suffering experienced by humans, but this article interests me because the problem of evil and suffering hits home for me ....

I guess where I lose you is the definition of 'torture' ... On one hand inflicting intense pain on anyone AS a means to get a confession could be one way of defining torture, but if a person or deity simply inflicts pain on people for other reasons, it's not torture? For example, is Hell, as a place of "torment" and "suffering" for nonbelievers and sinners not considered torture? Even if it is not considered 'torture' by definition, it still does not take away the experience of intense suffering for the individual? And perhaps you would try to argue that God is justified in setting up this kind of infinite torment/torture/suffering/pain for finite crimes? Perhaps in a debate my argument would have to surround the fact that God is not justified in allowing or setting up a system where such suffering occurs unless He be cruel?

D335 said...

@johnykzj

Let see the formulation of what you been offering:

One man kills another (victim) and where is the recompensation.
No, there is no recompensation enough EVER for one's life.

------------------------------
Add to the formulae with the offender is actually a very righteous person acting to self defense, or an actual murderer with bloodlust THAT DOES NOT change the formulae that recompensation is not enough for one's life.

Add to the formulae with the victim being absolutely innocent or an absolutely target deserving to be killed, or a hitler incarnate, still there is no recompensation enough.

------------------------------

That is why taking's one life according to Christianity in whatever circumstances develop a long line of chaotic endings.

Within chaotic endings, emotions gets played, vengeance burning and almost every time it happens, your future generation will play a part to continue this injustice.

WITH JESUS teaching such as within Matthew 5:43-44, this actual chaotic line COULD BE BROKEN. Love thy enemies, pray for those who persecutes you.
THIS IS THE MAGIC MANTRA that has been carried thru centuries. It is damn not easy. It is HARD! But it is the only thing that could stop the long line of vengeance and broken hearts.

For forgiving not only heal yourself but brings the world together!
------------------------------
NOW! In the eyes of the law of the land, things could differ much. But Jesus clear advice for the separation between Church and State is giving an actual exit!

In my nation, crime of murder CANNOT be recompensated to the family of the deceased with financial or corporal punishment.
As I believe in my country nor in US of A, The STATE charges the defendant for murder AND NOT originated from the family of the victim.
I dunno what's it called in US, but we have what constituted as Crime (state against defendant) and Litigation (side A vs side B).

------------------------------

2nd question:
No, there are nothing enough GOOD DEEDS to get me closer to God. This is my personal opinion (as I stated).
God loves me and I will suffer the world for all I can to serve His name BECAUSE that what I do to the people I love, and God happen to be the most.

D335

D335 said...

@johnykjz again.

This is your first input regarding, if I don't get the question wrong: Sorry for my english too.

Should demonic babies be killed? And how do we know one?

The only one who knows the future is God. And only from God, that human prophets, or angels or anyone, could be given such a HUGE knowledge.
Now let's get to the demonic babies. Whilst killing babies is God's prerogative, but My God, the God of Abraham, Moses and Jacob is not a stupid one. For if he killed those demonic babies, therefor NO CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED by those babies. Therefor God could be criticized as a very very angry God.
That is such an example like Samuel 15, God has given a "GRACE PERIOD" that if those society has not repent from their inequities, they would be wiped out. And they did.

Next logical chain question is: If one of those babies actually grow up to be a VERY VERY bad person or even Hitler the 2nd, ... and that demon kill my family, would it be bad judgement call from God?

No. His judgement is again perfect. We often claim why God let it happen to me? Why not somebody else? Why God have you forsaken me? This is what you don't get. The mystery of the Kingdom of God. It has happened to Job, whilst he watched his entire family wiped out. But can you blame God if God's actual plan it to give you something that is far more better? and all that PLUS his name is forever more glory?

There was a Greek story about a very beautiful boy that the neighbors claim he is destined for something Great. The elder of the village say "let's see". When he grew up to be a man, he rode a horse in a glorious manner that everyone thought someday he will be a great warrior and probably a statesman. The elder again only responded with "let's see".
One day, he fell of a horse and he broke his back. From that moment he was considered as "invalid", broken. "What a waste!" thought the people. The wise village elder again responded "let's see".
One year later, there was a war broke out. Every able and ready male sent to fight the enemy. Our "invalid" gazed upon those who left for the battlefield, for he could not join them.
In 6 months, the war is over. Many male residents of the village has
been killed during the battle. And this time noting his own luck, our guy walks to the village elder and ask "why was I spared? I could have died in the battlefield rather than living as an invalid!" The village elder simply respond,"NOW YOU SEE. For it's not your prerogative to choose what happen in life but for you to choose how you going to live it. And this for you my child, is to rebuild what we lost".

This story /parable is of course related-linked to your next question. Why are we not "created" in a manner that WE SEE FIT. Why God doesn't grow a limb if we pray for it. God knows best. God knows what happens in the future. God chose the best way for you.
Would a father gives his son a scorpion if his son requested it? Would a father slapped the shit outta his boy if the boy ever made such a stupid request?

jonnykzj said...

@D335
1st thankyou for your reply. You raise some good points. We can talk about bloodlust and love thy enemies later. Infact in accordance with how i understand Christ's message Christians should NEVER be for the death penalty, even in case of murder, MUCH LESS granting the state such power whore more prone to misue it. Also wouldnt you agree that blaspheming against God OR taking other gods besides God is IMMENSELY MORE evil in the sight of God than even a crime which to us humans appears to be most heinous i.e. murder? If so then Christians for the death penalty should be consistent and demand death for such too.
2ndly what about stealing? you didn't address that. Does the one who's been stolen from not get compensated by God in case the thief dies a beleiverin Christ and the one stolen from doesn't? If not how is this just?
3rdly you say no good deeds can bring you, even as a beleiver in Christ, closer to God. OK so let me ask you this then:
Suppose we have Christians x,y,z, all accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, but x is the laziest, y is somewhat in the middle and z dedicates his/her entire life preaching the gospel of Christ ALL WITH PURE INTENTIONS. Are you telling me God won't make a difference between any of them? If so how is that just?

David Wood said...

Farhan,

There are two issues here. 1MoreMuslim presented an extraordinarily odd version of the Problem of Evil, which is based on (1) a particular concept of God, and (2) the existence of some kind of evil. The claim is that a certain concept of God rules out the existence of certain kinds of evil. The Problem of Evil is one of the most popular areas of Philosophy of Religion, primarily because the presence of various evils is indisputable.

You're bringing up what is referred to as the "Problem of Hell," which is a very different topic. Whereas the Problem of Evil is drawn from clear and indisputable instances of observable evils, the Problem of Hell is based on religious teachings. (We don't observe hell, or the nature of hell, etc.) As such, the Problem of Hell isn't a major area of Philosophy of Religion. It's more of a theological discussion.

Farhan Qureshi said...

Hey Dave,

Fair enough, I'm sure we will have a discussion someday about these issues. Appreciate the clarification.

D335 said...

@johnykjz questions.

1. Should Christian pro life or death penalty?

As to be made LAW, each citizen is entitled to their opinion. Again, Luke 20:25 clearly stated:
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

As those who are against Death Penalty, their consideration is justified, pointed upon the hope of rehabilitation. Still you cannot force an idea that either rehabs works or not.
What about those who are pro Death Penalty? their consideration is also justified, upon the idea that forgiveness is coming from the heart, yet state punishment must go on.

Howbout if the state misuse it? Again, there is a clear separation between church and state. It would undermine Christianity severely if Jesus doctrines be made Law of the land. If the law fails (whilst Christianity as the law of the state) therefor Jesus also fails!.
I'm not pointing to Sharia, but I also remind those who forced Sharia to become the law of the land.

Blasphemy? Of course not believing in Jesus Lord God is a sin of most heinous. In the court of God!. God is the judge, the jury and the executor!
Does God needs you to render judgement? Well if He did, he would clearly, directly and without miss-communication send that order of judgement to us!
But infact in the covenant of Jesus Christ, apostle Paul said

Roman 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.


2. And what about stealing? Does it require a compensation?

Every sin indeed leads to death. Again nothing you can do ENOUGH to recompensate it.

If I steal a stupid pen from a friend whilst thinking that it just a stupid pen, with little value in my calculation, ...
I would have disrespect the real value of that pen to my friend!.
That pen could be the last thing that his father on a death bed left behind! That pen could be the gift of the POTUS to him!

Again, it will direct to chaotic endings as I mentioned before.

3. Is there a level of God's grace according to your good deeds?

No. Remember that guy, the criminal who happened to die next to Jesus during Crucifixion?
He repented. He accept Jesus as he asked Jesus to take him to Eden.

The moral of the story? I DO NOT MIND to serve God in heaven either in stable or in the most expensive condominium in heaven. Tho I know that it is clearly that we will be like angels in heaven, free of our mortal flesh.
So what if Hitler repented his sins and accept Jesus at the time of his death? He will go to heaven.
Clear as a sky.
WOULD I MIND ABOUT THAT?
YEs it saddens me, but ALSO I AM FILLED WITH JOY!. Because I now welcome a lost brother rather than lost one!.
This last part is reminded to me by the story of the brat who took his inheritance to party abroad. Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

“‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

I hope my answer could be any use to you.
I also leave you a word:
Forgiveness is a trait that NO ONE can be forced to do so. But it was done so FOR EVERYONE thru the grace of Jesus Lord.

David Wood said...

Farhan,

If you're interested in the topic of Hell (especially from a Christian perspective), I've got some good books and essays.

D335 said...

Q: Suppose we have Christians x,y,z, all accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, but x is the laziest, y is somewhat in the middle and z dedicates his/her entire life preaching the gospel of Christ ALL WITH PURE INTENTIONS. Are you telling me God won't make a difference between any of them? If so how is that just?

----------------------------------

Dang, Jesus infected me with parables.
My Justice is not God's Justice. Let me put it in a mock-up story.

If a have a blackforest tart, a big cake,.... and if I also have 3 kids aged 17 yrs old, 10 yrs old and 1 years old,....
Therefor with the concept of my version of "Justice" I would have given them all each the same portion. That is one big cake.
What 's the result?
The 17 years old will actually finish the whole cake less than 30 minutes. Clean to the plate.
The 10 years old will undoubtly suffers from Acute possibly explosive diarrhea.
The 1 year old will simpy not going to survive.

Therefor God's justice sounds terrible sometimes, He often gives and takes on His will, but I believe His justice is perfect.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again

u said:

"Should demonic babies be killed? And how do we know one?"

JK- IF God revealed to us that they were so, then it could be justified. Today according to many Christians God wldnt command such BUT IF HE wld thered have to be a SCIENTIFIC CONTROLLED DEMONSTRABLE display of miracles by a person of God, as in Moses time when he convinced the magicians, in association with the command from God that He wants the babies/children in qs killed.

"The only one who knows the future is God. And only from God, that human prophets, or angels or anyone, could be given such a HUGE knowledge."

JK- Correct and I ADD we only know theyre Prophets if they can perform DEMONSTRABLE miracles which the best magicians of the time can verify are not mere eye trickery. This is the basics i wanted to get out. Ill answer the rest in the next post.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again
u say:

"Now let's get to the demonic babies. Whilst killing babies is God's prerogative, but My God, the God of Abraham, Moses and Jacob is not a stupid one. For if he killed those demonic babies, therefor NO CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED by those babies. Therefor God could be criticized as a very very angry God."

JK- Remember God according to the OT killed the firstborn of Egypt and ordered the babies of the Caananites to be smashed against rocks. If these were infact demonic it means tht either their true soul is already gone OR theyre demons in disguise of babies n thus evil already n already comitteed blasphemy n other crimes in God's sight.

"That is such an example like Samuel 15, God has given a "GRACE PERIOD" that if those society has not repent from their inequities, they would be wiped out. And they did."

JK- If you say God wiped out babies without either taking their souls first, so as to not actually let them feel the pain OR them being demons then this could be a problem.

"Next logical chain question is: If one of those babies actually grow up to be a VERY VERY bad person or even Hitler the 2nd, ... and that demon kill my family, would it be bad judgement call from God?"

JK- It would be bad ESPECIALLY if you remember strong Christian apologist "Christian Prince" STRONGLY criticizing the Quran for containing a command from Go to Khidr, who was to kill a young boy coz he was to mislead his parents into disbeleif in the future, claiming tht this is absoluitely absurd for God to punish a person be4 he comits the crime. i rem this very well. n also rem in the sight of God nothing is a bigger sin than blasphemy not even murder.

"No. His judgement is again perfect. We often claim why God let it happen to me? Why not somebody else? Why God have you forsaken me? This is what you don't get. The mystery of the Kingdom of God. It has happened to Job, whilst he watched his entire family wiped out."

JK- Sure im never denying that God could test one, but then He would prob taketheir souls before killing their body n just let it appear as if He brutally killed them for example. THATS MY PT it can be explained BUT CHRISTIANS DONT DO THT n this makes them look like a joke. Thts my whole pt.

"But can you blame God if God's actual plan it to give you something that is far more better? and all that PLUS his name is forever more glory?"

JK- I told you no but NOT MERELY coz of the reason ure giving here but coz im confident God wld have OTHER MORE REASONABLE GROUNDS FOR IT.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again

"There was a Greek story about a very beautiful boy that the neighbors claim he is destined for something Great. The elder of the village say "let's see". When he grew up to be a man, he rode a horse in a glorious manner that everyone thought someday he will be a great warrior and probably a statesman. The elder again only responded with "let's see".
One day, he fell of a horse and he broke his back. From that moment he was considered as "invalid", broken. "What a waste!" thought the people. The wise village elder again responded "let's see".
One year later, there was a war broke out. Every able and ready male sent to fight the enemy. Our "invalid" gazed upon those who left for the battlefield, for he could not join them.
In 6 months, the war is over. Many male residents of the village has
been killed during the battle. And this time noting his own luck, our guy walks to the village elder and ask "why was I spared? I could have died in the battlefield rather than living as an invalid!" The village elder simply respond,"NOW YOU SEE. For it's not your prerogative to choose what happen in life but for you to choose how you going to live it. And this for you my child, is to rebuild what we lost".

JK- I get tht as well and this time uve actually brought a good arguemnt which is exactly what CHritians shld do everytime theyre bombarded with such n not sit silent when it comers to atheists qsing such or just changing the topic.

"This story /parable is of course related-linked to your next question. Why are we not "created" in a manner that WE SEE FIT. Why God doesn't grow a limb if we pray for it. God knows best. God knows what happens in the future. God chose the best way for you."

JK- I already gave an explanation which IMU is the reason God doesnt simply grow back limbs on prayer. I belevei prayer works indirectly N SYSTEMATICALLY NOT IN MOST CASES VOLATING THE LAWS OF NAURE AS SUCH. YET i predict a statistical test shld show true beleivers praying be4 beginning a say logical or gen knowledge test if allowed equal acces to info beforehand as every other grp wld stand out on top. if not then N ONLY THEN, do we have a prob with prayer.


"Would a father gives his son a scorpion if his son requested it? Would a father slapped the shit outta his boy if the boy ever made such a stupid request?"

JK- I dont know why u brought this up for i never argued such. But ill answer it anyways. If the child is insiitng on a scorpion then the father might try n eliminate the poisonous glands from a scorpion n after making sure its harmless allow his son to play with it. as for slapping the shit outta him, he would only do so if he had DEMONSTRABLE EVIDENCE that tht wld say lead his child to be in a state radically better in both body n mind a few ses or mins after tht.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again
u say:

"Dang, Jesus infected me with parables.
My Justice is not God's Justice. Let me put it in a mock-up story."

JK- This is NOT a good argument but wld look like a cop out and also doesnt make sense FOR WHEN GOD USES THE TERM JUSTICE HE HAS to use it in a way we already understand it in our environment otherwise the communication is useless and God logically wont apply senseless terms.


"If a have a blackforest tart, a big cake,.... and if I also have 3 kids aged 17 yrs old, 10 yrs old and 1 years old,....
Therefor with the concept of my version of "Justice" I would have given them all each the same portion. That is one big cake."

JK- You would? Sorry but you can't be that simple minded, can you? And you arn't either as you've just explained it later on yourself.

"What 's the result?
The 17 years old will actually finish the whole cake less than 30 minutes. Clean to the plate.
The 10 years old will undoubtly suffers from Acute possibly explosive diarrhea.
The 1 year old will simpy not going to survive."

JK- See you solved the problem yourself meaning you understand what justice is.

"Therefor God's justice sounds terrible sometimes, He often gives and takes on His will, but I believe His justice is perfect."

JK- No it's actually the reverse. Accordingn to your understanding of God's justice, He is actually advocating a 0-1 BLACK N WHITE system of justice, THE EVRY SAME YOU DENIED ABOVE IN UR EXAMPLE. Dont u see it? A complex set as you then stated yourself would be for God to delve into MORE DETAIL and allow for a SPECTRUM IN BOTH HEAVEN N HELL.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again

u say:

"1. Should Christian pro life or death penalty?

As to be made LAW, each citizen is entitled to their opinion."

JK- Sure BUT A CHRISTIAN CITIZEN shld formulate opinion COMPATIBLE WITH THEIR FAITH. THATS my whole pt. Ironically till today i see the majority of non believers opting against the DP whilst conservative Christians, which are still the majority in the US, are for it.


"As those who are against Death Penalty, their consideration is justified, pointed upon the hope of rehabilitation. Still you cannot force an idea that either rehabs works or not."

JK- That should be what all true Christians whore consistent shld opt for at least.

"What about those who are pro Death Penalty? their consideration is also justified, upon the idea that forgiveness is coming from the heart, yet state punishment must go on."

JK- So wld state punishment for adutery or blasphemy be justified too as opinions from Christians? Doesnt make sense.

"Howbout if the state misuse it? Again, there is a clear separation between church and state. It would undermine Christianity severely if Jesus doctrines be made Law of the land. If the law fails (whilst Christianity as the law of the state) therefor Jesus also fails!."

JK- DPs have already failed sinec all stats show regions where it is applicable have more crimes N ALSO MANY INNOCENTS HAVE BEEN KILLED. DONT forget tht if a murder is charged with death anyways why wont he just run amock n kill as many ppl as possible? He wld reasonably do so since hes gonna get killed anyways might just try n shoot his/her way out. THEN theres the issue of revenge n sinec the state is funded BY EVERYONE the victims might just randomly kill citiziens as revenge for the deceased. CHRISTIANS of all ppl shld realize these probs.


"I'm not pointing to Sharia, but I also remind those who forced Sharia to become the law of the land."

JK- A Christian for certain should never approve of that.

"Blasphemy? Of course not believing in Jesus Lord God is a sin of most heinous. In the court of God!. God is the judge, the jury and the executor!"

JK- And so should be the case with murder FROM A CHRISTIAN PERPECTIVE. In a secular state the death penalty is frowned upon anyways. THATS MY WHOLE PT.

"Does God needs you to render judgement? Well if He did, he would clearly, directly and without miss-communication send that order of judgement to us!
But infact in the covenant of Jesus Christ, apostle Paul said

Roman 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord."

JK EXACTLY MY PT AS TO WHY CHRISTIANS SHLD NEVER OPT FOR THE DP AS INDIVIDUALS.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again

u say

"2. And what about stealing? Does it require a compensation?

Every sin indeed leads to death. Again nothing you can do ENOUGH to recompensate it."

JK- Where in the OT does it say that the punishment for theft is death? I mean there was death for a lot of sins but i dont rem death for this one. ALSO thats not the point. Lets say wrt Godthe thief deserves theft. Ok but how would that be just to the one stolen from. YOU SEE IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE THAT SIN IS BAD JUST COZ U HURT GOD'S FEELINGS. Surely God is above that. WHAT can rather be argued is that since other beleivers tried their best to follow God's commands more carefully and also belevied in Him more firmly, it would be unfair of God WRT TO THEM for Him to let the sin go. SEE THE ISSUE OF JUSTICE NOW. Say if there was only God and you. Then it wouldnt make any sense at all for God to punish you if you disobeyed Him. You should understand that the term justice is defined by the REKATIONS WE SHARE WITH VARIOUS CONCIOUS ENTITIES. This is also how responsibility arises and God sets out to ensure all our interests are best protected. THATS THE WAY TO ARGUE.

"If I steal a stupid pen from a friend whilst thinking that it just a stupid pen, with little value in my calculation, ...
I would have disrespect the real value of that pen to my friend!.That pen could be the last thing that his father on a death bed left behind! That pen could be the gift of the POTUS to him! Again, it will direct to chaotic endings as I mentioned before.
"

JK- Correct but also consider that you should be smart enugh to consdier this and also that you couelve stolen from someone where you actually KNEW tht the thing meant alot to him. Obviously the latter is even worse. Again SPECTRUM.



"3. Is there a level of God's grace according to your good deeds?"

JK- After belief in God and Christ according to Christians, there logically should be as ive tried to make clear all this time.

jonnykzj said...

"No. Remember that guy, the criminal who happened to die next to Jesus during Crucifixion?
He repented. He accept Jesus as he asked Jesus to take him to Eden."

JK- I forgot to mention that ofcourse INTENTION is to be taken into account as well. I would surely agree that if guy a stole amount y coz of need n guy b stole same amount y out of greed the latter is far more severe if the first is at all in this case.
ALSO AND THIS IS KEY even if say a murderer truly repents then sure he/she should be forgiven BUT THE VICTIM SIDE BE COMPENSATED TOO. That wld be both forgiveness and justice too. A similar thing is done in rehab by seculars. If psychologists see signs of strong remorse in a murderer here in Germany they let him/her out sometime after 15 yrs e.g. In addition they cld introduce blood money to be paid to the victims OR some other service offered to the victim party.

"The moral of the story? I DO NOT MIND to serve God in heaven either in stable or in the most expensive condominium in heaven. Tho I know that it is clearly that we will be like angels in heaven, free of our mortal flesh."

JK- But arnt we going to be resurrected on the DOJ which menas wed be in physical bodies albeit not necessarily like these? Cld it be that being like angels in heaven is meant symbolically meaning having their freedom of movement?

"So what if Hitler repented his sins and accept Jesus at the time of his death? He will go to heaven."

JK- Yes im ok with the lower spectrum of heaven starting right after someone beleives. NO PRB THERE. Itd be prob though if Hitler were on the same level in heaven with say David Wood even then.

"Clear as a sky."

JK- And yet this is clearly problematic and black n white.

"WOULD I MIND ABOUT THAT?
YEs it saddens me, but ALSO I AM FILLED WITH JOY!. Because I now welcome a lost brother rather than lost one!."

JK- If Hitler TRULY REPENTED, which is necessary even according to Christians after accepting Christ otherwise not everyone who calls him Lord you know will enter heaven(rem tht verse?) BUT ONLY THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER. But even then as i said there shld be a SPECTRM IN HEAVEN N IN HELL.

"I also leave you a word:
Forgiveness is a trait that NO ONE can be forced to do so. But it was done so FOR EVERYONE thru the grace of Jesus Lord."

JK- Forgiveness as far as God's feelings are concerned, PERFECT. Even forgiveness if one has offended others can also be fine BUT ONLY IF THE OFFENDED PARTY IS COMPENSATED N GOD CAN COMPENSATE EVERYONE IN FULL. No doubt abt tht.

jonnykzj said...

To sum it all up the reasns Christians should give as to why God entered the world should not be coz only thereby He cld show that He's perfectly just and merciful at the same time FOR SURELY God mustve been such before as well and could demontrate that to people nbeforehand in other ways to. RATHER it should be argued that God loved the world so much that it was in His nature to enter the world DWELL AMONGST HIS FAVORITE CREATURES(at least as far as this universe goes) and show the people how to pray to the father e.g. in the correct manner etc which is also in accordance with the Bible.

D335 said...

@JohnyKJZ

you post to each detailed explanation and sought to eliminate each points. Wonderful. I hope that I can try explain all.

First : My background was an Agnostic. The "chicken" version of Atheism. I've identified, read and keeps digging (the only good solid point of my early life). I sought to deny every non evidence based facts.
In fact, every conversion means that they are not the cowards to stick on the version of their original definition of Hell. I've been too many times threaten of going to hell and face the fiery depth of hell if I not repent. I cared not.

But indeed why I chose to love Lord Jesus is because the concept of Sin. That for me is the very great judicial concept and a masterpiece of art.

I must also point that within MY explanation is a limitation in which I cannot 100%ly able to demonstrate all. There were no video-camera, signed testimonial of the scholars at EACH and EVERY incidents that occurred in Bible. We could only read and finding a reference or two that looks more of a justification to ourselves.

--------------------------------

a: If you say God wiped out babies without either taking their souls first, so as to not actually let them feel the pain OR them being demons then this could be a problem.

Seriously, anesthetize them first? For modern standard to let them feel no pain would be good. I'm for it.
As the Specialists told me in my profession, you would be a great father, but NEVER a good doctor. The goal matters, but the process also defines who you are.

Differ between "right thing to do" as opposed to "the nice thing to do". Both can coincide with each other, and often the right thing to do is the priority that we must pick.

The context of demonic babies as per you suggested, actually my findings are NONE within the bible. Christ said in Luke 19:14
"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
This means, children are pure, and it is us who corrupted them. We sought to implement our understandings of right-wrong without sometimes considering would it be right or wrong in the future context.

If such demonic babies exist, therefor the babies souls is not to be blame. El Diablo made them like that. Therefor they gain entry to heaven.

b. It would be bad ESPECIALLY if you remember strong Christian apologist "Christian Prince" STRONGLY criticizing the Quran for containing a command from Go to Khidr, who was to kill a young boy coz he was to mislead his parents into disbeleif in the future.

What's the question here? You confirm it!
God given them time to repent, tho in our view it is cruel for God to let those people sin first. But again, God will be called angry God IF he started to whack a community without them sinning first!.
God is not that stupid. A crime must be committed BEFORE judgment could be rendered.

And THAT IS US talking about the OLD Testament. Jesus has pre-paid our debt IF we decided to choose His Banking system! (I use banking terminology). And if we keep going against the bank's guidelines, would we still be called a customer? No, we will be dropped from the customer list.

c. Sure im never denying that God could test one, but then He would prob take their souls before killing their body n just let it appear as if He brutally killed them for example.

WHAT is the point of taking a life without actual LIFE BEING TAKEN? That is a murder without a victim. That is tele-novela.

Come on you could do better than that! Even when I was an agnostic, I know that if a pain is not a pain, therefor NOTHING GAINED!.

What if a soldier refuse the risk of getting shot? What if a doctor refuse to get the risk of being infected by their own patients?
I laughed hard when I remember my dad's word: Wussies! (but then again, my father is harsh critic on everyone.)

D335 said...

NEXT part
a. YET i prbedict a statistical test shld show true beleivers praying be4 beginning a say logical or gen knowledge test if allowed equal acces to info beforehand as every other grp wld stand out on top. if not then N ONLY THEN, do we have a prob with prayer.

Gee, statistical? I may not understand the question, but I hope my point could be made.
Would I choose a religion based on the statistic that God granted their wishes exactly?
No. It would be thinking that God is Santa Claus. There is no great concept in that. Nor does it solve anything.
WHAT WILL I LEARN IF I HAVE IT ALL?

b.JK- I dont know why u brought this up for i never argued such. But ill answer it anyways. If the child is insiitng on a scorpion then the father might try n eliminate the poisonous glands ---"

Why I brought it? Do you notice that Christians call God as their Father since it is fatherly love that enables both Mercy and Just co-existing together?
Christians address God as Father, or Lord Jesus Christ (YHWH) or Holy Spirit.
What Christian do not address God as "Judge" or "Executor" since that implies a Just God but NOT a merciful one.

c. JK- I told you no but NOT MERELY coz of the reason ure giving here but coz im confident God wld have OTHER MORE REASONABLE GROUNDS FOR IT.

Ah very good point indeed. I just hope I can phone God and ask why in the hell did He let my 5000 USD PC burnt out last week.

D335 said...

REQUEST TO JOHNY KJZ.
please use shorter question therefor I can read it quickly and try to answer shortly too.

Question: JK- No it's actually the reverse. According to your understanding of God's justice, He is actually advocating a 0-1 BLACK N WHITE system of justice, THE EVRY SAME YOU DENIED ABOVE IN UR EXAMPLE. Dont u see it? A complex set as you then stated yourself would be for God to delve into MORE DETAIL and allow for a SPECTRUM IN BOTH HEAVEN N HELL.

Response: How is that a choice of A and B? Black or White?
I AM a SIMPLE MIND. But this simple mind knows exactly that it is NOT 2 choices or 3 choices only rather it is what I call "NBA style Justice!" For you will never see where the ball goes, but you see it when the basket ball enters the hoops.
If my parable is that bad, then, scrap it. Find a better one, I won't sweat it. I tried!

Have you found a verse within the bible that we would be given access to levels of heaven ? or hell?
Cause you would be a great help. I could learn some of that too!

Since if I do good deeds enough, would I deserve a promotion in God's grace?
Lol, comparing to what my inequities are, IT IS ONLY GRACE that God could allow me just to sleep on the couch of Paradise!.
I also remind you, that our view of afterlife that we be LIKE ANGELS! Unless you prefer food, sex and all 24/7 heavenly entertainment in afterlife.

Farhan Qureshi said...

Hey Dave those books would be a huge benefit, yes please! Sorry about your debates this weekend ... Btw Nadir Ahmed emailed me about wanting to debate you, and I said I'd mod if Nadir agrees to debate me too.

If you guys ever need a secular or "less biased" perspective on Islam, I'd love to contribute to such a panel discussion/debate.

BTW i met a super cool Christian pastor/ apologist this past month, we debated on his radio show, reminds me of all the cool Christians I've come to know like you guys :-)


Thanks!

Farhan

D335 said...

@David Wood, I terribly sorry, I can't help it. There's free time and he requires answers.
Please forgive us for the space that we highjacked and bombed your thread with Q&A.

@JohnyKJZ

a.JK- That should be what all true Christians whore consistent shld opt for at least.

If "whore" is a misprint, fine. I still respect those who believe in Jesus and not to call them whores.

b. JK- So wld state punishment for adutery or blasphemy be justified too as opinions from Christians? Doesnt make sense.

Christians give what belong to state and what belongs to Christ God. Which part did you exactly missed?
You opened a can of worms that infects your statement. Not mine. - Is a man's law just whilst God who supreme just is not a judge of that court?
- Is God's law just whilst Man and not God is the Judge?

You are in the "vortex of confusion" of many levels. Stop typing for a minute. Consider WHY did I point that!

________________________________
IN THE CASE OF MURDER or any crime. Two laws are breached. One the state law, second the law of God.
-The state should proceed within the law of the state.
-God also will render judgement accordingly. And again, NOT thru the hand of man, UNLESS he made clear order to pass the justice to us.
________________________________

State punishment for adultery and blasphemy? Isn't that Saudis, Iran and Pakistan LAW? Can a Christian decided, bah, let's kill em all and institute the law of Jesus Christ? non-sense! For they would expect a verse to be thrown at them with "read it and weep" note.

c. K- DPs have already failed sinec all stats show regions where it is applicable have more crimes N ALSO MANY INNOCENTS HAVE BEEN KILLED.

Lol, My POV to see both pro DP or against DP iS NOT RELATED to Christianity since it does not either STOP crime or INCREASE crime levels.
Remember I'm not in US. We have both DP and non DP. My POV of the crime statistic is about the level of socio-economics and law-enforcement.
Sure in China, sadistic crime often happen in whilst a robbery always involved with killings and the use of assault rifles. Live as a rich robber or Die as an inmate.
The 3rd choice would be, live as an innocent yet very poor inhuman existence longing for a grave. (must remember that most crimes are boosted by economic conditions, rather than those who purely criminal minds.)
Does that stop crimes in China? No. Does DP elevates crime in China? again No. And majority of Chinese mainland are not Christians.

d.JK- And so should be the case with murder FROM A CHRISTIAN PERPECTIVE. In a secular state the death penalty is frowned upon anyways. THATS MY WHOLE PT.

As you cling to the concept of DP, I did wrote about what Christians believe about taking a live. There is no re-compensation enough!.
Now you argue if state law is okay with DP and against DP, IT IS STATE. If it be made God's law as the law of the state, Jesus must be the judge and NOT a human being.

Blasphemy? I don't think i.e. US constitution made blasphemy as a breach of law. But that's God's law. God will deal with it.

e. JK EXACTLY MY PT AS TO WHY CHRISTIANS SHLD NEVER OPT FOR THE DP AS INDIVIDUALS.

annnnddd..... No. You are forcing others to take your POV. Therefore restricting their opinion.

D335 said...

next part

2. Where in the OT does it say that the punishment for theft is death? I mean there was death for a lot of sins but i dont rem death for this one.

Easy, add the word "life" after "stealing". Get it? Not the point?
okay fine, next.

Q: Lets say wrt Godthe thief deserves theft. Ok but how would that be just to the one stolen from. YOU SEE IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE THAT SIN IS BAD JUST COZ U HURT GOD'S FEELINGS. Surely God is above that.

Response: Would that be just?, let's blaspheme a lil bit and see God in His shoes.
IF you have two kids, fighting each other, a younger kid punches his older brother, would you prescribe a just punishment therefore his brother could maim his younger brother back?. An eye for an eye? That is Torah, the law of God!. But God sees us as His Children. Some children acknowledge his father but some not.
But what about the recompensation of the victims? Surely you missed the whole point where I wrote "CHAOTIC ENDINGS" where vengeance, revenge and everything I wrote as you sought only to eliminate point after point without actually reading them.
Fine, Let's dig deeper. Consider Palestinian and Israeli conflict. DO YOU SEE AN EXIT FOR THAT? But what about those families who lost their loved ones? WHAT ABOUT IT? Both parties been mourning for that loved ones for decades now. And still they brought "chaotic endings" for the future generations to enjoy.
You can cry for all re-compensation you want but you could never brought back or at least make right for a crime that has been committed. What recompensation is ENOUGH? for revenge and vengeance is as deep as hell itself.

I John 5:19
Let's go back to the scripture.
All sins lead to death. Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death." It does not include or exclude any particular sins. And Romans 3:23 tells us, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
(1 Corinthian 6) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
---------------------------
At first I WAS REFUTED by the scripture itself as in 1 John 5:17
"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." KJV

WOOT? Yes, but it also affirms ME! Every coming short of right is sin; (but) not every sin is the sin unto death. Therefor most sin can be pardoned, but one. That is the next part of 1John5:17 up to 21. Blasphemy

Q: JK- If Hitler TRULY REPENTED, which is necessary even according to Christians after accepting Christ otherwise not everyone who calls him Lord you know will enter heaven(rem tht verse?)

Response: Jesus knows the heart of men. I agree with that, that abusing Jesus' name will not gain an entry to heaven, in fact it blaspheme the name of God.
Please find the verse and Make it easy for me!

Q: SPECTRUM,
Response: I already show you that by grace we enter heaven, but you INSIST in spectrum and levels of God grace upon Christian in afterlife. Surely you want a better condos than everyone else. You need Christianity to be a competitive religion, a competition.

My answer is ... PROOF THAT THRU the scripture. I will have no problem to accept that if it's clear and concise. And I also will REFUTE back BY SCRIPTURE if there's a misinterpretation. My heart is not a wall, I could be proven wrong.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
TO the concept of Mercy and Just, (David Wood's problem of sin) I believe you have not clear on that yet. If you happen to know it, pls re-explained to me in your words. That way, you see the just and the mercy that Jesus offered us.

NB tho my intonation is harsh, forgive me cause I intent not. I infact relieved that you are also interested in learning the scripture.
D335

D335 said...

@JohnyKJZ,
you could try to shorten the question, because I 've read many and understand most of your inputs.

i.e. Spectrum - Levels in Heaven or Hell.

i.e. Recompensation for those who are wronged.

i.e. Taking the lives of the babies first before they can be crushed.

That way we can read and focus to each other questions.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"But indeed why I chose to love Lord Jesus is because the concept of Sin. That for me is the very great judicial concept and a masterpiece of art."

JK- Cld u explain how so in more detail plz?

"I must also point that within MY explanation is a limitation in which I cannot 100%ly able to demonstrate all. There were no video-camera, signed testimonial of the scholars at EACH and EVERY incidents that occurred in Bible."

JK- Nothing even in operational science is ever shwon to be a 100% so no worries about tht.

"Seriously, anesthetize them first? For modern standard to let them feel no pain would be good. I'm for it.
As the Specialists told me in my profession, you would be a great father, but NEVER a good doctor. The goal matters, but the process also defines who you are.

Differ between "right thing to do" as opposed to "the nice thing to do". Both can coincide with each other, and often the right thing to do is the priority that we must pick."

JK- I dont quite get it? So what is your conclusion then reg God commading to kill the babies? Did He do it without taking their souls IYO?

"The context of demonic babies as per you suggested, actually my findings are NONE within the bible. Christ said in Luke 19:14
"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
This means, children are pure, and it is us who corrupted them. We sought to implement our understandings of right-wrong without sometimes considering would it be right or wrong in the future context."

JK- But what about all of us being born in sin according to the Bible?

jonnykzj said...

"If such demonic babies exist, therefor the babies souls is not to be blame. El Diablo made them like that. Therefor they gain entry to heaven."

JK- I didnt blame the babie's souls. I even grant they cld be taken to heaven.

"What's the question here? You confirm it!
God given them time to repent, tho in our view it is cruel for God to let those people sin first. But again, God will be called angry God IF he started to whack a community without them sinning first!.
God is not that stupid. A crime must be committed BEFORE judgment could be rendered."

JK- So then why did God command the killing of babies in certain circumstances such as the caananites or killed every first born in Egypt during Pharaoh's time? SO CLEARLY God can, if we accept the OT, kill humans before they actually cimitted their crime.

"And THAT IS US talking about the OLD Testament. Jesus has pre-paid our debt IF we decided to choose His Banking system! (I use banking terminology). And if we keep going against the bank's guidelines, would we still be called a customer? No, we will be dropped from the customer list."

JK- Good analogy BUT REM even according to the NT calling Christ Lord Alone is not enough as per the verse ive stated in one of my previous comments. YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER.

"WHAT is the point of taking a life without actual LIFE BEING TAKEN? That is a murder without a victim. That is tele-novela."

JK- He did, if we accept the story, take their ACTUAL LIFE BUT EHE SOUL LIVES FOR EVER, correct? the soul is never killed. The purpose was then to test whether Job would still believe despite experiencing this great APPARENT disaster.

"Come on you could do better than that! Even when I was an agnostic, I know that if a pain is not a pain, therefor NOTHING GAINED!."

JK- Mental Pain for Job, sure. Pain for his family, not necessarily so since they were not the ones to be tested.

"What if a soldier refuse the risk of getting shot? What if a doctor refuse to get the risk of being infected by their own patients?
I laughed hard when I remember my dad's word: Wussies! (but then again, my father is harsh critic on everyone.)"

JK- I don't quite understand what this has got to do with the test of Job's belief? Or do you mean in the sense that what if job chose to give up his Prophethood after the incidence?n If so Im actually saying tht if God actually commaded him to be so then HE SHLDNT DESPITE THE INCIDENT.

jonnykzj said...

@D335


"Gee, statistical? I may not understand the question, but I hope my point could be made.
Would I choose a religion based on the statistic that God granted their wishes exactly? No. It would be thinking that God is Santa Claus. There is no great concept in that. Nor does it solve anything."
"

JK- NO N THT IS THE WHOLE PT. God would not grant every wish BUT OVERALL N THT IS WHT STATS R FOR THE BELIEVERS GRP SHLD STAND OUT ABOVE OTHERS. If not then how wld we know the true grp?

"WHAT WILL I LEARN IF I HAVE IT ALL?"

JK- Who says you'll have it all? I NEVER SAID THT. Hope i made that clear, The while pt abt stats is tht ANNECDOTES DONT COUNT so we look for an overall significant average n if Christian prayers overall on average do not show to be better than the prayers of other religious grps then we would not know which is the true one.


"Why I brought it? Do you notice that Christians call God as their Father since it is fatherly love that enables both Mercy and Just co-existing together?
Christians address God as Father, or Lord Jesus Christ (YHWH) or Holy Spirit.
What Christian do not address God as "Judge" or "Executor" since that implies a Just God but NOT a merciful one."

JK- Honestly i never understood this one. Why does one have to think as mercy to be the opposite of justice and not the two complementing each other. Let me explain how. I can think of a judge being merciful if he takes time to delve deep into what the INTENTIONS of the criminal in qs are and then still issue a just judgement which wld be lighter coz he looked for ACTUAL mitigating factors. So in this scenario JUSTICE ACTUALLY INCREASED AS MERCY INCREASED. What do you say?

"Ah very good point indeed. I just hope I can phone God and ask why in the hell did He let my 5000 USD PC burnt out last week."

JK-lol

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"REQUEST TO JOHNY KJZ.
please use shorter question therefor I can read it quickly and try to answer shortly too."

JK- ill try.

"Response: How is that a choice of A and B? Black or White?"

JK- 0) No belief in Christ = Hell with supposedly same amount of torture for all its inhabitants no matter if some were more evil than others.
1) Belief christ died for our sins= Heaven with supposedly same amount of reqard for all its inhabitants no matter if some worked alot harder than others FOR CHRIST.

"I AM a SIMPLE MIND. But this simple mind knows exactly that it is NOT 2 choices or 3 choices only rather it is what I call "NBA style Justice!" For you will never see where the ball goes, but you see it when the basket ball enters the hoops."

JK- Sports is not a good example coz there too u have balck n white as one team has either 100% won or 100% lost. it's entertainment so it doesnt matter much though there can be improvement. N we do have stats n ppl pting out tht a certain team is NOT FARA BEHINF ANOTHER ON AVG in many cases. This is however not the case when we punish someone for a crime. There the AMOUNT of crime has always played a great role.

"Have you found a verse within the bible that we would be given access to levels of heaven ? or hell?
Cause you would be a great help. I could learn some of that too!"

JK- No i havnt. Maybe someone could or be at least open to the possibility of such. That would suffice for the time being.

"Since if I do good deeds enough, would I deserve a promotion in God's grace?
Lol, comparing to what my inequities are, IT IS ONLY GRACE that God could allow me just to sleep on the couch of Paradise!."

JK- But remember since you already are a beleiver NOW all wht counts cld be the good deeds IN RELATION TO OTHER BEELIEVERS. Note how even the grades on tests are at a lower %age if the top %ages acquired by all participants r lower? Ever given tht a thght?

"I also remind you, that our view of afterlife that we be LIKE ANGELS! Unless you prefer food, sex and all 24/7 heavenly entertainment in afterlife."

JK- Angels according to the Bible can and have taken many forms INCLUDNG THT OF HUMANS. Infact fallen angels even had sex with humans producing demonic ppl n/or giants. SO WHILST angels cld just fly n experience terrain n envirnment without bodyparts they cld choose t acquire such too.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"If "whore" is a misprint, fine. I still respect those who believe in Jesus and not to call them whores."

JK- Sorry meant "who're".

"Christians give what belong to state and what belongs to Christ God. Which part did you exactly missed?"

JK- But Christians are allowed to take part in law making too JUST LIKE OTHER CITIZENS. Or do you disagree with tht? And as such they should opt for laws or help make laws tht are compatible with their faith. Ofcourse those wld only come into action shld the overall majority agree n also the experts in the relvant fields WHICH TOO WLD INC CHRISTIANS IN PART.

"You are in the "vortex of confusion" of many levels. Stop typing for a minute. Consider WHY did I point that!"

JK- I hope i cleared up the confusion now.


"IN THE CASE OF MURDER or any crime. Two laws are breached. One the state law, second the law of God."

JK- I explained now how state law comes to be. ALSO there are limits for acceptance of state law. Say a state has a law persecuting certain minorities or not granting freedom of speech. Wht then? Shld Chistians not revolt? If not id like to see you debate Alex Jones.

"-The state should proceed within the law of the state.
-God also will render judgement accordingly. And again, NOT thru the hand of man, UNLESS he made clear order to pass the justice to us."

JK- I dont think God likes tyranical states or laws BUT EVEN tht was not my pt. My pt was just tht those lawmakers who're Christians shld not agree with laws contrary to their faith despite having to accept them if they lose coz of the majority disagreeing with them. Is it clear now?

"State punishment for adultery and blasphemy? Isn't that Saudis, Iran and Pakistan LAW? Can a Christian decided, bah, let's kill em all and institute the law of Jesus Christ?"

JK- No he cant coz Jesus didnt want such NOT ONLY NOT ASLAW BUT NOT ALL ALL N MORE. He didnt even want the stoning for adulteres and blasphemers so ne can imply he didnt want such for murderers either.

jonnykzj said...

"Lol, My POV to see both pro DP or against DP iS NOT RELATED to Christianity since it does not either STOP crime or INCREASE crime levels.
Remember I'm not in US. We have both DP and non DP. My POV of the crime statistic is about the level of socio-economics and law-enforcement.
Sure in China, sadistic crime often happen in whilst a robbery always involved with killings and the use of assault rifles. Live as a rich robber or Die as an inmate.
The 3rd choice would be, live as an innocent yet very poor inhuman existence longing for a grave. (must remember that most crimes are boosted by economic conditions, rather than those who purely criminal minds.)
Does that stop crimes in China? No. Does DP elevates crime in China? again No. And majority of Chinese mainland are not Christians."

JK- So your're against the DP then?


"As you cling to the concept of DP, I did wrote about what Christians believe about taking a live. There is no re-compensation enough!."

JK- No there is if you beleive in Christ and repent of your sin you are forgiven even for murder n theres to be no worldly punishment necessary for it at all according to Christ.

"Now you argue if state law is okay with DP and against DP, IT IS STATE. If it be made God's law as the law of the state, Jesus must be the judge and NOT a human being."

JK- I never said it be made God's law. I hope you unedrstood my point.

"Blasphemy? I don't think i.e. US constitution made blasphemy as a breach of law. But that's God's law. God will deal with it."

JK- Sure. Neither is DP for murder part f the US constituion nor the secular US mindset in general. The only reason we have DP is cause of many Christians wanting it. Thts the irony.

"annnnddd..... No. You are forcing others to take your POV. Therefore restricting their opinion."

JK- I can force my opinion on others with words and so can one Christian using the Bible to another Christian. I#m pting out how incosistent those Christians are by supporting such. It would be like Christians opting for laws, NOT GOD LAWS NOW, BUT AS A STATE LAW, wanting adulteres to be punished by death for example. Got it?

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"Easy, add the word "life" after "stealing". Get it? Not the point?
okay fine, next."

JK- Are you being serious? I meant stealing as in stealing property.


"Response: Would that be just?, let's blaspheme a lil bit and see God in His shoes."

JK- Let's give an example of a father. If a child disobeys his father on wht he considers little issues he wont do much. Even tiny provocations wont make him all tht angry. Infact the greater the child's offense the greater the father's response to it. Are you saying God is even less able to delve into detail as comapred to a human father? Surely you cant do tht.

"IF you have two kids, fighting each other, a younger kid punches his older brother, would you prescribe a just punishment therefore his brother could maim his younger brother back?. An eye for an eye? That is Torah, the law of God!. But God sees us as His Children. Some children acknowledge his father but some not."

JK- But if we accept the OT even then that was a law for a time only and only for adults, not children. ALSO rem God was directly present with with his Prophet's miracles who cld accurately make decisions if a body part was to be taken, cut etc.

"But what about the recompensation of the victims? Surely you missed the whole point where I wrote "CHAOTIC ENDINGS" where vengeance, revenge and everything I wrote as you sought only to eliminate point after point without actually reading them."

JK- I absolutely agree that physical revenge can lead to chaotic endings. Thats exactly one reason why im against the DP for example.

"Fine, Let's dig deeper. Consider Palestinian and Israeli conflict. DO YOU SEE AN EXIT FOR THAT? But what about those families who lost their loved ones? WHAT ABOUT IT? Both parties been mourning for that loved ones for decades now. And still they brought "chaotic endings" for the future generations to enjoy.
You can cry for all re-compensation you want but you could never brought back or at least make right for a crime that has been committed. What recompensation is ENOUGH? for revenge and vengeance is as deep as hell itself."

JK- As humans ofcourse we can just TRY TO DO OUR BEST with good intentions. I never said we have capabilities to judge like God N THT IS EXACTLY WHY in the NT all the harsh OT laws have been abolished.

"I John 5:19
Let's go back to the scripture.
All sins lead to death. Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death." It does not include or exclude any particular sins. And Romans 3:23 tells us, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
(1 Corinthian 6) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

JK- Yes but not necessarily human death. Infact in the OT there were animal sacrifices to obliterate sins symbolically. ALSO all death is NOT EQUAL. One can die in pain or one cld die without experience any such or very little.

jonnykzj said...

"At first I WAS REFUTED by the scripture itself as in 1 John 5:17
"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." KJV

WOOT? Yes, but it also affirms ME! Every coming short of right is sin; (but) not every sin is the sin unto death. Therefor most sin can be pardoned, but one. That is the next part of 1John5:17 up to 21. Blasphemy"

JK- I have nothing really to disagree here.


"Response: Jesus knows the heart of men. I agree with that, that abusing Jesus' name will not gain an entry to heaven, in fact it blaspheme the name of God.
Please find the verse and Make it easy for me!"

JK- Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

"Response: I already show you that by grace we enter heaven, but you INSIST in spectrum and levels of God grace upon Christian in afterlife. Surely you want a better condos than everyone else. You need Christianity to be a competitive religion, a competition."

JK- Has nothing to do with just me wanting to be better than others. Life is a competition after all. Without competition there is no motivation and without motivation even spreading the gospel wld not be as effective. We see this in all aspects of life. It all just wldnt make sense.

"My answer is ... PROOF THAT THRU the scripture. I will have no problem to accept that if it's clear and concise. And I also will REFUTE back BY SCRIPTURE if there's a misinterpretation. My heart is not a wall, I could be proven wrong."

JK- Im not saying that i can provide evidence for this from scripture as of now and this is infact one of the probs i still see with Christianity or rather with Christian apologists. Im sure they argue for such if they tried to first open their minds in tht direction.

"TO the concept of Mercy and Just, (David Wood's problem of sin) I believe you have not clear on that yet. If you happen to know it, pls re-explained to me in your words. That way, you see the just and the mercy that Jesus offered us."

JK- Ive explained this in one of my recent posts.

"NB tho my intonation is harsh, forgive me cause I intent not. I infact relieved that you are also interested in learning the scripture.
D335"

JK- Sure, NP.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"you could try to shorten the question, because I 've read many and understand most of your inputs."

JK- You did? I didnt think u did so on many issues but i hope now u do.

"i.e. Spectrum - Levels in Heaven or Hell."

JK- Yes.

"i.e. Recompensation for those who are wronged."

JK- FROM GOD, i.e. and you yourself wld agree tht if God is there directly He cld compensate all in the best possible manner.

"i.e. Taking the lives of the babies first before they can be crushed."

JK- Their souls, yes in case they're not all demon, not human at all, anyways.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

Another thing I'd like to ask you is how do you stand on evolution i.e. all living things known sharing a common ancestor?

D335 said...

@JohnyKJZ.

A. D335 -you could try to shorten the question, because I 've read many and understand most of your inputs."

JK- You did? I didnt think u did so on many issues but i hope now u do.

D335-Rather than copy pasting ? Sure, I don't even read half of the things you copy paste back. You can copy paste more, go ahead.

B. D335- I won't bother to search from thousands of input you've probably made on David Wood;s view on the concept of Sin. No, explain it now. On that trade, I will answer your last question.

JK- Another thing I'd like to ask you is how do you stand on evolution i.e. all living things known sharing a common ancestor?

D335 - With humility comes wisdom (Proverbs 11:2). I did not suggest that I am a master of all knowledge either philosophical nor practical. But one thing I do know, research or study is a never ending progress. Many theories refuted in the future. Such a firm standing over an undefined structure without faith, could be my own downfall. A knowledge that is not mine, I will answer " I do not know" for it is the truth. I will not claim and choose a certain side of scientific theory, for that matters not if I believe in afterlife.

i.e. Do you scientifically believe in UFOs?
I do not know. For claiming there is without irrefutable scientific evidence is an actual symptom of Hallucinatory episode of Schizophrenia. For claiming there is not therefore I'm narrow minded.

D335-Specifics in evolution: Let's say we all sharing a common ancestor. Is there a divine intervention? Can you prove there is not? or if there is? Do you support the concept of faith or is that a blind hope?

C. Does good-deeds allows you to gain promotion for certain levels in Heaven? or a place in heavens? (Spectrum issue that you brought.):

JK- Im not saying that i can provide evidence for this from scripture as of now and this is infact one of the probs i still see with Christianity or rather with Christian apologists. Im sure they argue for such if they tried to first open their minds in tht direction.

D335-You do understand that Christians looks upon the scripture exactly for these subject. If you are an atheist what theological scripture based evidence can you provide? My personal believe as a Christian that I know is not about competition. If you want a competitive religion, Judaism or Islam might offer you the concept of seven-heavens. Go ahead. What I believe within the scripture of the Bible actually believe that I am my brother's keeper (As Cain said when inquired by the Lord: Am I my brother’s keeper?”, Gen 4:9. ) .Not even trying to compete about who gets the better part of grace. It is like asking God for a gold medallion even when I deserve only a place to rest in heaven.

Christian apologists DO INDEED open their minds in that direction! I was even ready if you provide a reference of "third heaven" but you don't even try. Here: http://vintage.aomin.org/threelevels.html

D. JK- As humans ofcourse we can just TRY TO DO OUR BEST with good intentions. I never said we have capabilities to judge like God N THT IS EXACTLY WHY in the NT all the harsh OT laws have been abolished.

D335- Sorry, wrong scripture. Read Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.".

donna60 said...

Faran,

Death as defined in scriptures is a separation, of varying kinds. The separation of the soul from the body is one kind of death. But in the book of Genesis, God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree of knowledge they would die that very day.

Of course, they didn't die physically, but they were tossed out of the garden of Eden, and were separated from a personal relationship with God.


Genesis 2:16-18
16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [a]eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”


Hell, as defined in scriptures, isn't a place of torture, per se, but the effect of the absence of God. That is why it is called the "second death"

Revelation 20:14
◦King James Version
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell was created for Satan. Mankind was created to live eternally in the presence of our Creator. After men fall, however, God tosses their souls into hell simply as a place of eternal separation from Him.

Matthew 25:40-42
40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Even on earth, everyone enjoys gifts from God, such as families, love, nourishment and warmth. But in Hell, there will be no comfort or love, because these things come from God.

Everyone wants more love. I don't believe there is a person who exists who will say that they simply have too much love in their lives. Everyone wants more. But loving others is just as essential. Imagine waking up every morning, and not only do your children and your wife not love you, but you don't love them. No warm spark, or little flame that allows you to tolerate their behaviors. Suppose you didn't love your mother or father, or brothers, and there was no one earth just to love.

Regardless of whether or not they loved you, if you couldn't love anyone that would be hell on earth.



Another verse that indicates the separating power of Hell from our Eternal Father is in Romans.

Romans 8:38

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"Sure, I don't even read half of the things you copy paste back. You can copy paste more, go ahead."

JK- What do u mean copy-paste? the only thing i copy/paste is ur arguments so tht i can reply specifically to them n one can see clearly to what i'm replying. makes it more clear.


"B. D335- I won't bother to search from thousands of input you've probably made on David Wood;s view on the concept of Sin. No, explain it now. On that trade, I will answer your last question."

JK- I was talking abt posts I MADE TO YOU. I did address everything relevant in these replies TO YOU.

"D335 - With humility comes wisdom (Proverbs 11:2). I did not suggest that I am a master of all knowledge either philosophical nor practical. But one thing I do know, research or study is a never ending progress. Many theories refuted in the future. Such a firm standing over an undefined structure without faith, could be my own downfall. A knowledge that is not mine, I will answer " I do not know" for it is the truth. I will not claim and choose a certain side of scientific theory, for that matters not if I believe in afterlife."

JK- Do you understand that there's a vast difference when the term "theory" is used in sciecne vs when the term is used in everyday language. In sciece theory isnt just a hunch or guess. thts hypothesis. In science a theory is an explanation for a set of emprirically verified data that makes predictions and has withdtood falsification just like gravitational theory, germ throry or relativity theory. Other than that the vast majority of scientists arnd 99.9% of biologists accept common decent world wide from the data available.
NOW with that said ofcourse there are no absolutes in science and neither can there be such in your claim that the Bible is the Word of God. Who knows tomorrow one may receive data that would make one conclude that it ewasnt the Word of God after all. thats part of life and the reason why im so adament abt saying tht ultimately God judges people BY THEIR INTENTIONS.
Or is God a computer/machine, God forbid, where you have to enter the correct code to gain His acceptance? How ridiculous wld tht be?

"i.e. Do you scientifically believe in UFOs?"

JK- There is no scientific consensus on UFOS i.e. the mjaority of scientists in the relvant fields do not agree theres evidence for such. I personally also don't think there r UFOs wrt aliens but tht there r secret US millitary aircraft which is most likely wht ppl have reported as UFOs.

"I do not know. For claiming there is without irrefutable scientific evidence is an actual symptom of Hallucinatory episode of Schizophrenia."

JK- There is nothing irrefutable in life. That was not the point but we always logically shld go by things that have the best current evidence for.

"For claiming there is not therefore I'm narrow minded.

D335-Specifics in evolution: Let's say we all sharing a common ancestor. Is there a divine intervention? Can you prove there is not? or if there is? Do you support the concept of faith or is that a blind hope?"

JK- Are you assuming i'm an atheist? In case you are im not. I'm a proponent of "theistic evolution". Or do u mean something else? if so wht is tht?

jonnykzj said...

"D335-You do understand that Christians looks upon the scripture exactly for these subject. If you are an atheist what theological scripture based evidence can you provide?"

JK- I'm not an atheist. 2ndly i dont think alot of Christians do look for such. Many ive heard have very simplistic black and white thinking which is most annoying and the reason for so many of my posts. INTERESTINGLY when it comes to debunking orthodox islam, which i do too, they all of a sudden use sophisticated and logical arguments. to remain consistent they shld do the same whilst preaching their faith to other grps.


"My personal believe as a Christian that I know is not about competition. If you want a competitive religion, Judaism or Islam might offer you the concept of seven-heavens. Go ahead."

JK- Didnt know Juadaism had 7 heavens too? Is tht in the Talmud perhaps?

" What I believe within the scripture of the Bible actually believe that I am my brother's keeper (As Cain said when inquired by the Lord: Am I my brother’s keeper?”, Gen 4:9. ) .Not even trying to compete about who gets the better part of grace. It is like asking God for a gold medallion even when I deserve only a place to rest in heaven."

JK- Im talking abt healthy competition. Look at capitalism for example. Ironically Christians favor cap. So do i BUT THEN BE CONSISTENT n dont say this cannot possibly be applied by God Who has to be judging in terms of, id say God forbid, black n white.
ALSO i made it clear tht even if u say tht as a beleiver in Christ u dont deserve heaven u cant logically argue against a believer x doing much more for Christ deserves no more than believer y doing considerably less given both have had the same opportunity, can u?

"Christian apologists DO INDEED open their minds in that direction!"

JK- that wld be new to me.

"I was even ready if you provide a reference of "third heaven" but you don't even try. Here: http://vintage.aomin.org/threelevels.html"

JK- Ok but the ones interpreting them deny them to be differnet heavens for different grps of believers.

"D335- Sorry, wrong scripture. Read Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.".

JK- what areyou saying here? Everything has been fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead, went up to sit on the right hand of God and left with us the Holy Spirit according to Christians. IF that were not the interpretation of this verse, we'd be seeing Christians today stoning people to death for various crimes including disobedience to parents, witchcraft, etc even if u specifically wanted to exclude adultery where Jesus said the sinless cast the 1st stone. Infact some silly orthodox Russian Christians might argue tht way. ive heard a docu of them saying they wanna start trying n killing blasphemers again. wht a bummer!

D335 said...

@JohnyKJZ.
YOU do not read your own point that you may skipped them all to fit what you want.

Let me put proof it exactly on your last comment.

THIS IS YOUR words.
-----------------------------
JK- As humans ofcourse we can just TRY TO DO OUR BEST with good intentions. I never said we have capabilities to judge like God N THT IS EXACTLY WHY in the NT all the harsh OT laws have been abolished.
-----------------------
See that sentence "OT laws have been abolished." ???


And than I replied back.
-----------------------
D335- Sorry, wrong scripture. Read Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.".
-----------------------

YOU were pointing OT been abolished. COME ON! All I did was correcting you! And this is what you put next!

-----------------------
JK- what areyou saying here? Everything has been fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead, went up to sit on the right hand of God and left with us the Holy Spirit according to Christians. IF that were not the interpretation of this verse, we'd be seeing Christians today stoning people to death for various crimes including disobedience to parents, witchcraft, etc even if u specifically wanted to exclude adultery where Jesus said the sinless cast the 1st stone. Infact some silly orthodox Russian Christians might argue tht way. ive heard a docu of them saying they wanna start trying n killing blasphemers again. wht a bummer!
-----------------------

DO YOU NOT SEE THAT YOU CHANGES YOUR OWN ARGUMENT JUST TO SKIP YOUR EXACT MISTAKES THAT I POINTED?

And this is not the first!

Do you remember this argument:
-------------------------------
JK- If you say God wiped out babies without either taking their souls first,SO AS TO NOT ACTUALLY LET THEM FEEL THE PAIN OR them being demons then this could be a problem.

***Taking souls first, so not to feel pain***

JK- Sure im never denying that God could test one, but then He would prob take their souls before killing their body n JUST LET IT APPEAR as if He brutally killed them for example.

*** no actual LIFE has been taken***

AND THIS IS MY REBUTTAL:
---------------------------------
WHAT is the point of taking a life without actual LIFE BEING TAKEN? That is a murder without a victim. That is tele-novela.
---------------------------------
Do you not see LIFE? Can you differ between LIFE and SOUL?

Did you missed the whole writing that I WAS POINTING TAKING A LIFE, and not TAKING SOUL?

Killing is NOT taking soul. It is TAKING A LIFE!

Is your native language understand the difference between "life" and "soul"?

*******************************
Okay here we go. Copy pasting methode. start with 3pages, you will end up 6 pages and the next will be 12 and then 24. What's next? 48 pages just copy pasting previous arguments?

NO, This is not forum HTML. This is blogger comments. Therefore make a full argument before you want a full answer.

And this is what I have been pointing all along.

Start your full argument and
let me do your exact COPY PASTING METHODE of the previous arguments. Let's see who get's the better end.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"YOU do not read your own point that you may skipped them all to fit what you want.
Let me put proof it exactly on your last comment.
...
See that sentence "OT laws have been abolished." ???"


YOU were pointing OT been abolished. COME ON! All I did was correcting you! And this is what you put next!"

JK- Ok maybe iphrased it wrong. So let me put it this way. The harsh laws in the OT are NO LONGER APPLICABLE AND /OR WERE NO LONGER TO SUPPOSED TO CAVRRSY THEM OUT according to Jesus. If u disagree with tht just consider his example where he says "may the one without sin throw the first stone". Rem tht? WHY are u focussing on a mere term instead of the actual pt im making? Im sure you understood this and am beginning to feel ure playing word games with me.


" DO YOU NOT SEE THAT YOU CHANGES YOUR OWN ARGUMENT JUST TO SKIP YOUR EXACT MISTAKES THAT I POINTED?"

JK- I think i expolained it above.

"...AND THIS IS MY REBUTTAL:
---------------------------------
WHAT is the point of taking a life without actual LIFE BEING TAKEN? That is a murder without a victim. That is tele-novela."

JK- What exactly do u mean by this for i might have misunderstood it? What is this "actual" life here you're talking abt? Do u mean by taking life in such tht body functions r shut down or interupted OR do u mean the soul is shut down or somehting else? Surely u cant mean the 2nd for Christians genrally agree that the SOUL NEVER DIES.

"Do you not see LIFE? Can you differ between LIFE and SOUL?"

JK- YES. The soul NEVER DIES. When Jesus died on the cross did his body die OR HIS ESSENCE/SOUL? SURELY it is only the BODY.

"Did you missed the whole writing that I WAS POINTING TAKING A LIFE, and not TAKING SOUL?

Killing is NOT taking soul. It is TAKING A LIFE!"

JK- Sure, killing is terminating the body functions which contains the soul. NOW this could be done by God with taking the soul OR by keeping it int he body to perhaps make it experience the death of the body. HOWEVER we dont have control over the soul so we cant just kill except in self defense perhaps or with authority from God which must be verified independently like the magicians did in case of Moses for example. Get my pt?

"Is your native language understand the difference between "life" and "soul"?"

JK- I think ive explained this in detail now.


" Therefore make a full argument before you want a full answer."

JK- Ive initially made my arguments. NOW since ure bringing in ur rebuttals to them i shld be able to repond specifically or not?

D335 said...

@JohnyKJZ
I'm afraid I'm no longer be able assist in your "search" for answers,

due to :
1. Inconsistencies within your own arguments.
Such as referring to wrong theological doctrine yet you just "oops" and gone bias on your clear mistakes.

2 Fallacy, this one is equivocation. That is changing the meaning of the words.
In which I have pointed about
the clear difference of LIFE when brutally shut, it will contain PAIN, but you then again referring to SOUL.
i.e. I can take your life with a Knife (that would be painful) BUT I CAN NEVER take your soul OR inflict a pain on your soul with a knife.

3. Your understanding of a Christian doctrine which I'm terribly sorry UNDER the par and with the wrong golf club on the wrong 18-holes.
To suffice this, always put your evidence using a reference (in which Christian debaters use THE HOLY BIBLE itself or other "known" references will do.

A clear idea of "heaven" for example, as per not supported by the Bible, you clearly have not check the bible itself.
This was your answer:
"JK- Ok but the ones interpreting them deny them to be differnet heavens for different grps of believers."
Holy Bible is not Quran in which you can pick and choose the "short" verses that you like. It is NOT open for any mis-interpretation, even tho many mis-TRANSLATION happened in the past. How come? Each doctrine within the bible is either supported by or be confirmed with the next paragraphs, OR others books within.
Mis-TRANSLATION occured in the past due to the idea upon a word in more than 2 language. i.e. the word Hell in english was originally "Infernus" in Latin (fiery place), "Hades" in Greek as in Greek Mythology (a resting place for the dead), or Sheol (underground) or Gehenna (waste land, the valley of Hinnom).
Mis-TRANSLATION can also change a doctrine such as:
i.e. Catholic's Hail Mary prayer. Hail Mary, FULL OF GRACE.
i.e. Protestant Erasmus translation edited bible clearly point Hail Mary, she who FOUND GRACE.

4. Your understanding of a forum format. This one is blogger comments.
You clearly have no idea of what a "full argument" is. The idea is specifically not to answer per short paragraph, which is not a question nor pointing a hiccups of a doctrine.

I suggest that you might write 1-2-3 paragraph on a subject that you wish to invite anyone you want. That is full argument. Don't paste your answer per paragraph as you did to me.

I'm only be able to provide a very short rebuttal in the future as if you need me to (with the bible reference of course).

So I wish you goodluck my friend.

D335

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"I'm afraid I'm no longer be able assist in your "search" for answers,"

JK- Sorry to hear that.

"due to :
1. Inconsistencies within your own arguments."

JK- Ive tried to show that im willing to be consistent and ive also pointed out inconsistencies still maintained within Christianity N DID MY BEST to show Christians a way out of them but apparently you're not willing to do so.

"Such as referring to wrong theological doctrine yet you just "oops" and gone bias on your clear mistakes."

JK- When i make a mistake or use a wrong term i correct myself. Are you now going to bash me for that even?

"2 Fallacy, this one is equivocation. That is changing the meaning of the words.
In which I have pointed about
the clear difference of LIFE when brutally shut, it will contain PAIN, but you then again referring to SOUL.
i.e. I can take your life with a Knife (that would be painful) BUT I CAN NEVER take your soul OR inflict a pain on your soul with a knife."

JK- Ufffff...Ok let me put it yet another way. SURE you CAN also inflict a pain on my soul by hurting my physical body IF GOD DOESNT TAKE MY SOUL OR SHUT IT DOWN TEMPORARILY WHILST YOURE AT IT FOR EXAMPLE. Got it now?

"3. Your understanding of a Christian doctrine which I'm terribly sorry UNDER the par and with the wrong golf club on the wrong 18-holes.
To suffice this, always put your evidence using a reference (in which Christian debaters use THE HOLY BIBLE itself or other "known" references will do."

JK- Ive given references from the Bible and yes in one or more insatnces i cldve had the wrong unedrstanding of a term but overall my argument still stands and ive explained why. lets see if uve replied to that.

jonnykzj said...

"A clear idea of "heaven" for example, as per not supported by the Bible, you clearly have not check the bible itself.
This was your answer:
"JK- Ok but the ones interpreting them deny them to be differnet heavens for different grps of believers."
Holy Bible is not Quran in which you can pick and choose the "short" verses that you like. It is NOT open for any mis-interpretation, even tho many mis-TRANSLATION happened in the past. How come? Each doctrine within the bible is either supported by or be confirmed with the next paragraphs, OR others books within."


JK- There have been and still are MANY MANY diferent interpretations of the Bible and the doctrines. Thats why we have all these denomination within Christianity. Im not even saying that this is necessary a problem BUT YOU shld try to be be more open. Modern protestants in Europe and other countries have well adopted with their Biblical interpretations for example with current scientific knowledge in such for example they have ZERO PROBS with accepting the Genesis accounts not to be taken literally and hence have no probs accepting either evolution OR the earth being billions of yrs old.

"Mis-TRANSLATION occured in the past due to the idea upon a word in more than 2 language. i.e. the word Hell in english was originally "Infernus" in Latin (fiery place), "Hades" in Greek as in Greek Mythology (a resting place for the dead), or Sheol (underground) or Gehenna (waste land, the valley of Hinnom).
Mis-TRANSLATION can also change a doctrine such as:
i.e. Catholic's Hail Mary prayer. Hail Mary, FULL OF GRACE.
i.e. Protestant Erasmus translation edited bible clearly point Hail Mary, she who FOUND GRACE."

JK- Yeah so there you have it and new findings about heaven could arise as well. ALSO NOTE IM NOT SAYING THT IT MUST BE SO. Maybe the idea of heaven in the Bible is monolithic after all OR maybe even God left it a secret.

"4. Your understanding of a forum format. This one is blogger comments.
You clearly have no idea of what a "full argument" is. The idea is specifically not to answer per short paragraph, which is not a question nor pointing a hiccups of a doctrine."

JK- Well then im sorry i dont have an idea BUT ive presented my main arguments in the beginning and now im answering your rebuttals.

"I suggest that you might write 1-2-3 paragraph on a subject that you wish to invite anyone you want. That is full argument. Don't paste your answer per paragraph as you did to me."

JK- But didnt i do just that in the beginning?

"I'm only be able to provide a very short rebuttal in the future as if you need me to (with the bible reference of course)."

JK- Sure please do. It would be nice if you could tell me what your undertanding from the Bible is about "hermaphrodites" as i pointed out in one of my earlier posts. Do they count as man or woman? Do the laws of marriage apply to them or not for example?

"So I wish you goodluck my friend."

JK- Thankyou and plz know that im not angry at you and neither should you be.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again
OH BTW in order for you to easily find my replies just search for JK- . thts how i marked my reply in case u didnt notice.

D335 said...

@JohnyKJZ
you still copy pasting arguments and put answer per short paragraph again.

JK- Ive tried to show that im willing to be consistent and ive also pointed out inconsistencies still maintained within Christianity N DID MY BEST to show Christians a way out of them but apparently you're not willing to do so.

D335- Christians don't need a way out. You need a way out, especially with how you interpret things.
It's not the Christians that have a problem, it is your own inconsistencies and your own judgement that keeps thinking Christians need a way out.
---------------------------------

JK- When i make a mistake or use a wrong term i correct myself. Are you now going to bash me for that even?

D335-Yeah I read your inputs and see a serious mess on how you conduct your arguments.

Here's an example of your "SORRY"
--->> JK- Ok maybe iphrased it wrong. So let me put it this way. The harsh laws in the OT are NO LONGER APPLICABLE AND /OR WERE NO LONGER TO SUPPOSED TO CAVRRSY THEM OUT according to Jesus. If u disagree with tht just consider his example where he says "may the one without sin throw the first stone". Rem tht? WHY are u focussing on a mere term instead of the actual pt im making? Im sure you understood this and am beginning to feel ure playing word games with me.

D335- You could have easily said, woops sorry, wrong verse, read it wrong, or even wasn't reading it correctly. But you know what makes it hurt?
You made false accusation such as "If u disagree with tht just consider his example where he says "may the one without sin throw the first stone". Rem tht?" That is bias and thinking that I would go the opposite way of the bible.

That is my friend, a very bad move and dishonorable way to change the subject.
----------------------------------

JK- Ufffff...Ok let me put it yet another way. SURE you CAN also inflict a pain on my soul by hurting my physical body IF GOD DOESNT TAKE MY SOUL OR SHUT IT DOWN TEMPORARILY WHILST YOURE AT IT FOR EXAMPLE. Got it now?

D335- I can inflict a pain on your SOUL by hurting your physical body? WOW, still have no idea of what SOUL MEANT!.
I suggest you open either a dictionary or even asking a native english speaker about What is SOUL.
Clearly your own dictionary is a FAIL without a limit.

-------------------------------
JK- Ive given references from the Bible and yes in one or more insatnces i cldve had the wrong unedrstanding of a term but overall my argument still stands and ive explained why. lets see if uve replied to that.

D335-Most of em ARE WRONG and you falsely accused me back for correcting you.
----------------------------------
JK - There have been and still are MANY MANY diferent interpretations of the Bible and the doctrines. Thats why we have all these denomination within Christianity.

D335- Yes!, it is called BLIND FAITH, or no scripture learning.
Protestantism was born due to such a blind Catholic dogma that actually started to annoy with the Papacy and Inquisition. You are exactly what they were 1000 years ago!.

----------------------------------
JK- Yeah so there you have it and new findings about heaven could arise as well. ALSO NOTE IM NOT SAYING THT IT MUST BE SO. Maybe the idea of heaven in the Bible is monolithic after all OR maybe even God left it a secret.

D335-oooh, no reference again? You want to help Christian to find a way out? Can't even find a bible and start reading?
---------------------------------


JK- Well then im sorry i dont have an idea BUT ive presented my main arguments in the beginning and now im answering your rebuttals.

D335-Answering rebuttals? Of somehow no reference argument, non-philosophical thinking, consistently inconsistent? You kidding me? You don't even have an argument.

----------------------------------
@JohnyKJZ
You want to learn about hermaprodites eh? Sure let me gives you a crash course.

D335 said...

New Subject from JohnyKJZ: HERMAPHRODITE

Let me help you, but you must help yourself first.

1. Find definition of hermaphrodite and look into 2 things hermaphrodite MUST HAVE.
Also 1 capability of a hermaphrodite must be able to do.

2. Find out why the term is not applicable to -human being- of today.
Also find out why is the old term "true hermaphrodite" on human or ovotestis has been rebuked and cast out from medical POV on hermaphroditism.

3. Find out also similar but different conditions such as:
-pseudohermaphrodite
-chromosomal abnormality (and the view of the Law that allows chromosomal disorder person to CHOOSE their gender)
-transgender.

4. The Bible view about human hermaphrodites? you can open next to the verse that explain Leprechaun.

I've had this class 10 years ago in Histology 101. That's right, hermaphrodites next to Virgin birth subject.
----------------------------------
Again you could prove me wrong. I'm not a wall, I can accept if I have mistakenly understood something. Just point the evidence enough.

Go ahead, try to post a full-argument here.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"you still copy pasting arguments and put answer per short paragraph again."

JK- Yes i repost ur arguments and then reply to it specifically to as many as i can.


"D335- Christians don't need a way out. You need a way out, especially with how you interpret things.
It's not the Christians that have a problem, it is your own inconsistencies and your own judgement that keeps thinking Christians need a way out."

JK- Christians are inconsistent on amyn issues including for example their views on abortion, death penalty, God supposedly being absoltuely just and merciful, yet having a blacvk and white either complete hell or complete paradise etc. ANY non Christian neutral party wld call these inconsistent just like the same wld call muslim beliefs incosistent ofcourse.


"D335-Yeah I read your inputs and see a serious mess on how you conduct your arguments."

JK- Well i see a mess with your arguments as well. Tell you what. Why not cal upon sa neutral party i.e. agnosics/atheists or people with a beleif system other than ours and judge? That's how bias is removed otherwise we both cld just continue calling each other's arguments silly or messy or whatever.

"Here's an example of your "SORRY"

D335- You could have easily said, woops sorry, wrong verse, read it wrong, or even wasn't reading it correctly. But you know what makes it hurt?
You made false accusation such as "If u disagree with tht just consider his example where he says "may the one without sin throw the first stone". Rem tht?" That is bias and thinking that I would go the opposite way of the bible."

JK- Well sorry but that's what it seemed to me honestly. NOW with that said clarify your case.

"That is my friend, a very bad move and dishonorable way to change the subject."

JK- You can always clarify and we'll move on. Debate is harsh at times.

"D335- I can inflict a pain on your SOUL by hurting your physical body? WOW, still have no idea of what SOUL MEANT!."

JK- Soul IMU of Christian theology is the spirit OR the supernatural mind which is the REAL PERSON one of which was blown originally into the body of Adam whilst the body was ready.

"I suggest you open either a dictionary or even asking a native english speaker about What is SOUL. Clearly your own dictionary is a FAIL without a limit."

JK- Would you not agree with my above definition?


"D335-Most of em ARE WRONG and you falsely accused me back for correcting you."

JK- What can i say!

"D335- Yes!, it is called BLIND FAITH, or no scripture learning.
Protestantism was born due to such a blind Catholic dogma that actually started to annoy with the Papacy and Inquisition. You are exactly what they were 1000 years ago!."

JK- Wait a minute I'm more in favor of Protestants than of catholics myself. BUT protestants and even evangelicals such as baptists, presbyterians etc all have somewhat different interpretations of various Bible verses too. WITH THT SAID r u a protestant yourself?

"D335-oooh, no reference again? You want to help Christian to find a way out? Can't even find a bible and start reading?"

JK- I don't know of a Biblical verse yet but just cause i cannot find one as of now doesnt mean that i cannot cite possibilities.

"D335-Answering rebuttals? Of somehow no reference argument, non-philosophical thinking, consistently inconsistent? You kidding me? You don't even have an argument."

JK- Again is there any neutral party who cld judge? Otherwise i can throw the same accusations right back at you.

"You want to learn about hermaprodites eh? Sure let me gives you a crash course."

JK- Yep i do. This might get interesting...

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"Let me help you, but you must help yourself first."

JK- Ok lets see.

"1. Find definition of hermaphrodite and look into 2 things hermaphrodite MUST HAVE.
Also 1 capability of a hermaphrodite must be able to do."

JK- It has quite a few meanings BUT the one im referring to is a "human hermaphrodite" namely 2nd para and nr.2 from thefreedictionarydotcom:
2. (Medicine) a person having both male and female sexual characteristics and genital tissues

"2. Find out why the term is not applicable to -human being- of today."

JK- Why do you say that? Have you been in contact with the medical community?

"Also find out why is the old term "true hermaphrodite" on human or ovotestis has been rebuked and cast out from medical POV on hermaphroditism."

JK- So you mean to say that the medical community is now unanimous that humans with both male and female genitilia do not exist OR perhaps also that certzain humans don't have a NATURAL attraction for BOTH male and female?

"3. Find out also similar but different conditions such as:
-pseudohermaphrodite
-chromosomal abnormality (and the view of the Law that allows chromosomal disorder person to CHOOSE their gender)
-transgender."

JK- So you mean God has given some humans beings the option of choosing either to be man or woman? And if so how many times in a life can one choose this? ALSO do you mean by choosing to change ones psychology or way of thinking or a physical intervention in the body?


"4. The Bible view about human hermaphrodites? you can open next to the verse that explain Leprechaun.

I've had this class 10 years ago in Histology 101. That's right, hermaphrodites next to Virgin birth subject."

JK- Which one is that? Can you quote it plz?

"Again you could prove me wrong. I'm not a wall, I can accept if I have mistakenly understood something. Just point the evidence enough."

JK- Ok. ALSO what do you have to say about the PHYSICAL BIOLOGICAL DIFFERNCES BTW GAYS AND STRAIGHT MEN AND ALSO LESBIANS AND STRAIGHT WOMEN as listed here:
enDOTwikipediaDOTorg/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Biological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians
Sure seems like these people are not naturally attracted to what we superficially call the opposite sex n homosexuality in the animal kingdom seem to also support this view. So is it really a choice then or rather are they separate sexual entities altogether?
"Go ahead, try to post a full-argument here."

JK- What is a "full" arguument to you? ALSO what is your

D335 said...

let me put it this way,

Johny KJZ believes in Human Hermaphrodite.

!@&^#*!(&@^#*!@&^TLMAO..... What's next JohnyKJZ want to proof the existence of pink unicorn?

----------------------------------
wonderful one subject you have not shown any argument at all and then suddenly move to gays and lesbians.

What are you ? You shows many qualities of Muslims apologists. You should be one of them. Having none whatsoever knowledge while justifying everything for the sake to win an argument?

Keep going bud, you gonna make me laugh harder and harder.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"let me put it this way,

Johny KJZ believes in Human Hermaphrodite.

!@&^#*!(&@^#*!@&^TLMAO..... What's next JohnyKJZ want to proof the existence of pink unicorn?"

JK- I thought you cld look up what current scientific undersdtanding on the subject is by googling it or checking the main article on wiki n following the references etc. Despite that i did point out some things by providing links and quotations from there. But ok ill continue. Here are some more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
I forgot to mention that in science this term is nebulous and hence "intersex" is used. CLEARLY one can see that there is a spectrum of male-female in humans as well and no living human can said to be 100% male or 100% female but somewhere between. NOW im not saying that we can't quantify them by sex but this quantification leads to more than just two sexes. THATS what i wanted to point out.

"wonderful one subject you have not shown any argument at all and then suddenly move to gays and lesbians."

JK- Coz it is RELATED. Take a look at this for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals#Research_on_homosexual_behavior_in_animals
Quote "No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."

Some Christians in the past claimed HS was unnatural. You i hope are not of the same view. But what this shows in connection with thr data on HS in humans that such sexual entities do exist and they are not attratcede naturally to the "opposite" sex.

"What are you ? You shows many qualities of Muslims apologists. You should be one of them. Having none whatsoever knowledge while justifying everything for the sake to win an argument?"

JK- Again I could say the same of you. Bring an independent party to judge as I've stated before.

"Keep going bud, you gonna make me laugh harder and harder."

JK- Are you going to address the points I brought up though or not?

1MoreMuslim said...

Wow David, why do you answer my comments, with a new post , and let me be the last person who knows!

(6) If God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing babies to experience intense suffering, 1MoreMuslim will be aware of those reasons.
Now I challenge 1MoreMuslim to defend (6)


You drifted the subject to speak about Suffering and existence of God. You picked the wrong Guy, I am not Atheist. I believe we don't know any moral reason to prevent God for allowing the children to suffer. I believe that God was , is and will be torturing people.
You are good in defending the problem of Evil and God, but this is a horrendous misrepresention, a giant Straw Man.
I don't believe that there is a dilmma in believing in God in a world of suffering. The Dilemma was that you believe in a God who cannot torture babies, in a world where Babies are tortured ( the same as to say : allowed to be tortured)

Let's make an application of your point #6
(6) If God has morally sufficient reasons for NOT swearing by creation, David will be aware of those reasons.
Now I challenge David to defend (6)


I think you didn't understand a shred of the Dilemma, that is why you ended up agreeing with me; that God has no moral obligation, and that your post about Allah making Sins is a nonsense.
And this post is a complete failure. Since I agree with all the points from 1 to 6.

Now David, which is it? Does God allow babies to suffer or Not?

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again

Let me also cite for you what some Christians have to say about homosexuality USING THE BIBLE to explain why other Christians have misunderstood the concept:
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
I say there should be big debates about this topic for i wld wanna see Christians CONverge on topics on which there currently is alot of divergence.
tell me what you think of those arguments.

1MoreMuslim said...

Purple Marquise:

Wow! 1MoreMuslim! I didn't know you are an atheist!! Or maybe you aren't an atheist but you believe that Allah exists and actually DOES torture babies?!

So which one is it 1MoreMuslim?


The second one Marquise, I didn't change my mind, but I have the impression that David did change his mind. David was pushing his theory that God cannot Torture Babies, now he seems to say that God can and has no moral reason to not to. I can't believe he is PhD!

Royal Son said...

1MoreMuslim - allowing to suffer and torturing are two completely different things.

If you beg to differ, would you say that Allah rapes children simply because he allows that rape to happen?

Oh the places we could go with this one.

D335 said...

@D335

"let me put it this way,

Johny KJZ believes in Human Hermaphrodite.

!@&^#*!(&@^#*!@&^TLMAO..... What's next JohnyKJZ want to proof the existence of pink unicorn?"

JK- I thought you cld look up what current scientific undersdtanding on the subject is by googling it or checking the main article on wiki n following the references etc. Despite that i did point out some things by providing links and quotations from there. But ok ill continue. Here are some more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
I forgot to mention that in science this term is nebulous and hence "intersex" is used. CLEARLY one can see that there is a spectrum of male-female in humans as well and no living human can said to be 100% male or 100% female but somewhere between. NOW im not saying that we can't quantify them by sex but this quantification leads to more than just two sexes. THATS what i wanted to point out.

D335 - Yes, exactly, the idea of those link you give points out to -----------------> Animal
Well, simply since you are a scientist of biology, could you refer the rest of us, humble subjects to the existence of HUMAN HERMAPHRODITE?
Because after that, maybe I can search for leprechauns also!. You are playing in the field of B.S. Hope you get a better batting skill.


"wonderful one subject you have not shown any argument at all and then suddenly move to gays and lesbians."

JK- Coz it is RELATED. Take a look at this for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals#Research_on_homosexual_behavior_in_animals
Quote "No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."

Some Christians in the past claimed HS was unnatural. You i hope are not of the same view. But what this shows in connection with thr data on HS in humans that such sexual entities do exist and they are not attratcede naturally to the "opposite" sex.

D335 - Yes you could be of the homosexual -ANIMAL- (again look at the links you pointed out) and I won't blame you. Even God stated that He doesn't hate you ANIMAL playing homo.
Must I remind you, a Christian lives under the grace of God in which exactly means we must not hurt or harm gays/lesbian. Infact, we must respect and pray for them too.


"What are you ? You shows many qualities of Muslims apologists. You should be one of them. Having none whatsoever knowledge while justifying everything for the sake to win an argument?"

JK- Again I could say the same of you. Bring an independent party to judge as I've stated before.

D335- Yeah, your so broad knowledge of Wikipedia. Yet you lacks of concept in every fields. Theistic Evolution of whatever you believe in is not a religion but a concept of answering biological questions thru the eyes of the scripture. And this pose a question, WHAT SCRIPTURE OF GOD is your basis?

"Keep going bud, you gonna make me laugh harder and harder."

JK- Are you going to address the points I brought up though or not?

October 28, 2011 1:24 PM

D335 said...

@JohnyKZJ

should I remind you stick to one topic to discuss rather than jumps from one topic to another?

Are you familiar with the term "bias" ?

You keep making false definitions, false facts and way too many open questions that you no longer focused on. ie
1. "Soul" can be hurt by a knife.
2. Jesus abolished the OT.
3. Spectrum of heaven.
4. Moving to hermaphrodite to gays and lesbians already...

What kinds of answer do you expect from others here and me if you keep making short arguments that are totally biased, no evidence /authentic sources, even defying the meaning of word (defition)?
-------------------------------

If you still do not understand how to make a FULL ARGUMENT, then I suggest you either FIND OUT what it's meant or simply look how David Wood made his article.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"should I remind you stick to one topic to discuss rather than jumps from one topic to another?"

JK- It is related as i pted out though.


"Are you familiar with the term "bias" ?"

JK- Yep. You as Christian and infact even i as a Quran Aloner wld be biased against homosexuality being problemaic for example. So we need independent studies and those showed, perhaps unfortunate for us, they're not. Now we need to reconcile OR see if we interpreted scripture wrong OR missed something.
ALSO note the Bible says that God:
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal power and Godhead"
HENCE Nature is also a "book" we need to refer to n if scientists by studying nature come to conlusions like evo being true and ppl being born gay n lesbian we cant just sweep tht under the rug n say it's against scripture.

"You keep making false definitions, false facts and way too many open questions that you no longer focused on. ie
1. "Soul" can be hurt by a knife."

JK- Actually i said the body can be hurt and the "soul(self)" CAN feel it.

"
2. Jesus abolished the OT."

JK- I used the wrong term n admitted so. Yes he fulfilled the OT and made the worldly punishmentsto be carried out by men, for breaking GOD's Law obsolete.

"3. Spectrum of heaven."

JK- I still think that God will provide for such a spectrum or at least one of closeness to God.

"4. Moving to hermaphrodite to gays and lesbians already..."

JK- COZ ITS CLEARLY RELATED.

"What kinds of answer do you expect from others here and me if you keep making short arguments that are totally biased, no evidence /authentic sources, even defying the meaning of word (defition)?"

JK- I provided you links which have references to scientific papers. U just didnt read them probably.

"If you still do not understand how to make a FULL ARGUMENT, then I suggest you either FIND OUT what it's meant or simply look how David Wood made his article."

JK- Im not a fan of long articles. I like getting straight to the pt. An argument can have good quality without alot of quantity u know.

jonnykzj said...

@D335 again

I EVEN provided u with a link showing how some Christians interpret homosexuality: http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
I say there should be big debates about this topic for i wld wanna see Christians CONverge on topics on which there currently is alot of divergence.
tell me what you think of those arguments if u care to go through it.

D335 said...

Blogger jonnykzj said...

@D335

"should I remind you stick to one topic to discuss rather than jumps from one topic to another?"

JK- It is related as i pted out though.


D335-"Are you familiar with the term "bias" ?"

JK- Yep. You as Christian and infact even i as a Quran Aloner wld be biased against homosexuality being problemaic for example. So we need independent studies and those showed,

D335 -AND THAT IS THE BIAS AS I POINTED OUT, in which
1.you jumps from one topic to another
2.and you end it with the need of independent bible study.
Are two things co-related? If you can stick to one argument and shoot off 4-5 more open arguments, you will have dozens of unfinished arguments.
If you think no bible study has been made for the last 1800 years since the death of Jesus Christ, you surely are arrogant.

JK- perhaps unfortunate for us, they're not. Now we need to reconcile OR see if we interpreted scripture wrong OR missed something.

D335- It was and still is and always will be. Check for "erasmus" check for "geneva bible", check for KJV errors. Again, you carry lack of knowledge again and again and again as I love to point it out for you.

JK- ALSO note the Bible says that God:
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal power and Godhead"
HENCE Nature is also a "book" we need to refer to n if scientists by studying nature come to conlusions like evo being true and ppl being born gay n lesbian we cant just sweep tht under the rug n say it's against scripture.

D335- "Hence" or you mean therefore, again, you bring two un-related points and try to combine it on yourself.
Nature is a book, is that the solid argument JohnyKZJ can make? Metaphorically nor Literally both doesn't make sense since you describe it ONLY that way without clarifications at all. And again you go bias with Gay and Lesbian which has no direct reference to Romans 1:20

"You keep making false definitions, false facts and way too many open questions that you no longer focused on. ie
1. "Soul" can be hurt by a knife."

JK- Actually i said the body can be hurt and the "soul(self)" CAN feel it.

D335 - AND I KEEP POINTING, that if someone stab you with a knife, your nerves will scream out for pain and again NOT YOUR SOUL.
Unless again you failed to understand where does the PAIN comes from. But then again you missed the whole definition of SOUL and try to combine it with your own understanding without bothering to look for what is soul.


"
2. Jesus abolished the OT."

JK- I used the wrong term n admitted so. Yes he fulfilled the OT and made the worldly punishmentsto be carried out by men, for breaking GOD's Law obsolete.

D335- You used the wrong term and DID NOT admitted so until I pointed to you where you made the wrong terminology. NOT ONLY THAT, you also try to point that I was the one who doesnt believe that OT was Abolished.
It is "Taqiya" of the extreme sense possible. Accuse the enemy of not believing of their own scripture.

D335 said...

"3. Spectrum of heaven."

JK- I still think that God will provide for such a spectrum or at least one of closeness to God.

D335- So you said, that you are PRO to the CONCEPT OF THEISTIC EVOLUTION. Now, since Theistic evolution believe in the use of scripture, then again, PROVE TO ME that you are using the scripture to relate your concept that heaven or heavens has/have spectrums /levels.


"4. Moving to hermaphrodite to gays and lesbians already..."

JK- COZ ITS CLEARLY RELATED.

D335-Clearly as in your OWN MIND. You just skipped the whole biology and medicine just for your own sake.

D335-"What kinds of answer do you expect from others here and me if you keep making short arguments that are totally biased, no evidence /authentic sources, even defying the meaning of word (defition)?"

JK- I provided you links which have references to scientific papers. U just didnt read them probably.

D335-And what of the reference? Wikipedia links? Should I point you links to Bible Gateway? or howbout if I point you to emedicine.com? You can try to search for it on your own.
OR YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T BOTHER TO READ IT ANYWAY.

"If you still do not understand how to make a FULL ARGUMENT, then I suggest you either FIND OUT what it's meant or simply look how David Wood made his article."

JK- Im not a fan of long articles. I like getting straight to the pt. An argument can have good quality without alot of quantity u know.

D335- And through the long arguments I can clearly see you and what you make of your arguments.

But rather you take hey look at these wikipedia links, and WOW, it is all connected!
Fine, take a look at this www.biblegateway.com and I will say to you, IT IS CONNECTED! As simple as that.

D335 said...

Blogger jonnykzj said...

@D335 again

I EVEN provided u with a link showing how some Christians interpret homosexuality: http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
I say there should be big debates about this topic for i wld wanna see Christians CONverge on topics on which there currently is alot of divergence.
tell me what you think of those arguments if u care to go through it.





D335- Eventho you put this link
---------------------------------
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
---------------------------------
I do not regard this link as a good Christian source. In fact, I believe the way they put the articles clearly showing they copy paste the verses from the bible as they need without looking at the context.

I will show you that they wrote:

MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

----------------------------------
Verse 18 to 27 is a long passage, and they just summarize it without even caring what was actually said.

Does the summary indicated that JESUS WAS BEING TESTED by the Sadducees regarding no-ressurection? and what the MOSAIC LAW regarding the death of a brother in which the next in line brother may marry the wife in order to carry out family name?

It is not forced for the 2nd brother to have sex with the 1st brother's wife. Howbout if the wife was 70 yrs old? Howbout is the wife has problems in uterus? Howbout Chronic Illness which made pregnancy life-threatening condition?

And yet the summary of Mel White - Soulforce goes as:
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

-----------------------------------

Now again your link to soulforce is a big DUD.

D335 said...

@JohnyKZY

don't waste my time.

Next one, go with one question. I'll see what I can answer with that.
Finish dozens of unfinished question you have created before moving on with new topics. The soul definition, the spectrum of heavens, whatever.

Don't jumps from topic to topic.

NB: I still has no idea what your religion or state of your believe.
I don't care if you are a muslim, christian, atheist, agnostic (which pro-theistic or pro-atheist), JUST DECLARE IT. Therefore we can see how you regards scripture as you said that you follow the concept of theistic evolution.

D335

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"D335 -AND THAT IS THE BIAS AS I POINTED OUT, in which
1.you jumps from one topic to another
2.and you end it with the need of independent bible study."

JK- I do jump from one topic to another in many cases id agree BUT IN THESSE CASES they were clearly related. Also i wanna cover n address as many topics as possible.

"Are two things co-related? If you can stick to one argument and shoot off 4-5 more open arguments, you will have dozens of unfinished arguments."

JK- It doesnt matter. INFACT AN argument can always be opened later again. thts how self correction works. claiming to have complete knowledge of things wld be arrogant anyways. so we can always get back to something later if we find other flaws with out original pts or find new things reg it.

"If you think no bible study has been made for the last 1800 years since the death of Jesus Christ, you surely are arrogant."

JK- ON THE CONTRARY I THINK THERE HAS BEEN. But on some issues mistakes cldve been made in the past. Thts why more than 50% mainline prtestants/catholics have no prob whtsoever excepting evolution for exmaple and increasing nr of christians can exlain why the Homosexuality condemned in the Bible doesnt apply to gays and lesbians but at best only to hetero men and women. THTS WHY I PROVIDED THE LINK.

"D335- It was and still is and always will be. Check for "erasmus" check for "geneva bible", check for KJV errors. Again, you carry lack of knowledge again and again and again as I love to point it out for you."

JK- Ok so if they've been correcting themslves this is a good sign then. So maybe it's not so unfortunate then as Christians r ready rto correct their interpretations.

"D335- "Hence" or you mean therefore, again, you bring two un-related points and try to combine it on yourself.
Nature is a book, is that the solid argument JohnyKZJ can make? Metaphorically nor Literally both doesn't make sense since you describe it ONLY that way without clarifications at all. And again you go bias with Gay and Lesbian which has no direct reference to Romans 1:20"

JK- I meant nature being a book symbolically. In other words we can INFER PART OF GOD'S NATURE AND HOW HE MADE TINGS by studfying nature.

jonnykzj said...

"You keep making false definitions, false facts and way too many open questions that you no longer focused on. ie
1. "Soul" can be hurt by a knife."

JK- Oh but i will address tht too and i have in all replies where it was brought up.

"D335 - AND I KEEP POINTING, that if someone stab you with a knife, your nerves will scream out for pain and again NOT YOUR SOUL."

JK- 1st of all in tht sense our brains(central nervous systems), NOT just any nerves cry out. So you are amongst those Christians who say that we humans don't posess any supernatural "us" that receives sight, sound pain etc BESIDES OUR BRAIN?

"Unless again you failed to understand where does the PAIN comes from. But then again you missed the whole definition of SOUL and try to combine it with your own understanding without bothering to look for what is soul."

JK- Tell me your understanding of it if not the supernatural entity attached in some way to the body which escapes the body at death.


"D335- You used the wrong term and DID NOT admitted so until I pointed to you where you made the wrong terminology. NOT ONLY THAT, you also try to point that I was the one who doesnt believe that OT was Abolished."

JK- Yes coz i used the term in the wrong sense. So yes im sorry in tht sense of accusing u. it happened as a result of misundertsnading IF u agree with wht i actrually wanted to say here now.

"It is "Taqiya" of the extreme sense possible. Accuse the enemy of not believing of their own scripture."

JK- NOWEHERE did i say u didnt believe ur own scripture. I absoltely realize the possibility tht u cldve MISUNDERSTOOD scripture. i was not accusing u of any deliberate misrepresentation here.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"D335- So you said, that you are PRO to the CONCEPT OF THEISTIC EVOLUTION. Now, since Theistic evolution believe in the use of scripture, then again, PROVE TO ME that you are using the scripture to relate your concept that heaven or heavens has/have spectrums /levels."

JK- I cannot as of now show something in favor of it BUT NEITHER do i see anything either in quran or bible denying the possibility of such.


"D335-Clearly as in your OWN MIND. You just skipped the whole biology and medicine just for your own sake."

JK- I think I've pointed out what i consdiered relevant reg this pt.

"D335-And what of the reference? Wikipedia links? Should I point you links to Bible Gateway? or howbout if I point you to emedicine.com? You can try to search for it on your own.
OR YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T BOTHER TO READ IT ANYWAY."

JK- Sure u can pt me to biblegateway when a Bible verse is concerned. Wiki is a neutral encylopedia N I ALWAYS PT OUT to check the references provided with the claims made at wiki. U MAY IGNORE any statement tht wiki makes without reference. did u get tht?

"D335- And through the long arguments I can clearly see you and what you make of your arguments."

JK- Wht am i supposed to say to tht other than i cld say the same of u?

"But rather you take hey look at these wikipedia links, and WOW, it is all connected!"

JK- Again call upon a neutral party n if he/she says tht it wasnt then ill correct myself. otherwise whts the pt of these remarks?

"Fine, take a look at this www.biblegateway.com and I will say to you, IT IS CONNECTED! As simple as that."

JK- COMEON NOW! I referred u to SPECIFIC ARTICLES AT WIKI not just the homepage. So if anything plz refer me to specific verses or commentaries at biblegateway not jsut the homepage.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"D335- Eventho you put this link
---------------------------------
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
---------------------------------
I do not regard this link as a good Christian source."

JK- Ok and why's tht? How in ur view did they misrepresent the verses in qs e.g.?

" In fact, I believe the way they put the articles clearly showing they copy paste the verses from the bible as they need without looking at the context."

JK- Do u at least concede tht many Christians EVEN THOSE who r against HS on many topics diverge n one calls the others taking the verses out of context? CLD IT BE tht ur just saying this coz ur biased against gays n lesbians to begin with? Think abt tht.

"I will show you that they wrote:

MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

Verse 18 to 27 is a long passage, and they just summarize it without even caring what was actually said.

Does the summary indicated that JESUS WAS BEING TESTED by the Sadducees regarding no-ressurection? and what the MOSAIC LAW regarding the death of a brother in which the next in line brother may marry the wife in order to carry out family name?

It is not forced for the 2nd brother to have sex with the 1st brother's wife. Howbout if the wife was 70 yrs old? Howbout is the wife has problems in uterus? Howbout Chronic Illness which made pregnancy life-threatening condition?

And yet the summary of Mel White - Soulforce goes as:
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

-----------------------------------

Now again your link to soulforce is a big DUD."

JK- I can't comment on this verse either way coz ihavnt studied it myself. It is possible they understood it for a particular time only. it is possible they r wrong ON THIS particular verse whilst ure right here n theyre tright on others where u r wrong. NOW WITH THT SAID i only pointed this out to shw u tht different understandings can exist N IF AN UNDERSTANDING MATCHES WITH NATURAL DISCOVERIES, WLD U NOT AGRE THT IT IS MORE LIKELY ACCURATE THEN THE ONE WHICH GOES AGAINST THE INDEPENDENT STUDIES OF NATURE. THT is an important pt to consider.

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"Next one, go with one question. I'll see what I can answer with that.
Finish dozens of unfinished question you have created before moving on with new topics. The soul definition, the spectrum of heavens, whatever."

JK- Lets focus on on gays and lesbians and the findings inc them having disinct features from their hetero male and female counterparts first.

"Don't jumps from topic to topic."

JK- Ok lets finish tht one then to our satisfaction. BUT AS I SAID at any ater stage a new idea might popup so shldnt we then brong it up be4 we forget?

"NB: I still has no idea what your religion or state of your believe.
I don't care if you are a muslim, christian, atheist, agnostic (which pro-theistic or pro-atheist), JUST DECLARE IT. "

JK- I declared it in my other post. Im Quran Alone n prefer the term "minal muslimeen" for myself which is from the Quran itself instead of "muslim".

"Therefore we can see how you regards scripture as you said that you follow the concept of theistic evolution."

JK- Well it's not only me who does. Are there no Christians or even pastors in ur area who accept evolution coz here in Germany the majority of Christians prtotestants have no prob with evo whtsoever?

D335 said...

Blogger jonnykzj said...

@D335

"Next one, go with one question. I'll see what I can answer with that.
Finish dozens of unfinished question you have created before moving on with new topics. The soul definition, the spectrum of heavens, whatever."

JK- Lets focus on on gays and lesbians and the findings inc them having disinct features from their hetero male and female counterparts first.
----------------------------------
Gays and Lesbians.
Jesus main command: LOVE.

"'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
(Matthew 5:43-44)

Christian may not agree with homosexual, but even to our enemies we are to love, therefor how can we hurt our own brothers and sisters?

That maybe lack scientific theory, but let me hear your Quran version first.
If you are interested in medical terminology of homosexuals, you can try to look at: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV) which are used by all medical doctors in the world. There you can search for sexual "preference".
---------------------------------

"Don't jumps from topic to topic."

JK- Ok lets finish tht one then to our satisfaction. BUT AS I SAID at any ater stage a new idea might popup so shldnt we then brong it up be4 we forget?

"NB: I still has no idea what your religion or state of your believe.
I don't care if you are a muslim, christian, atheist, agnostic (which pro-theistic or pro-atheist), JUST DECLARE IT. "

JK- I declared it in my other post. Im Quran Alone n prefer the term "minal muslimeen" for myself which is from the Quran itself instead of "muslim".

D335- Run your search engine and put the word "Quranist". Yes we all aware of those who reject Hadiths and we love to asked them, do they pray 5 times a day and where do they know how to do it?
----------------------------------

"Therefore we can see how you regards scripture as you said that you follow the concept of theistic evolution."

JK- Well it's not only me who does. Are there no Christians or even pastors in ur area who accept evolution coz here in Germany the majority of Christians prtotestants have no prob with evo whtsoever?

D335- Many rev., evangelists and preachers came from medical background. I'm not a rev. myself but I came from medical background.
To be said in those term, we hold fast to what we know exactly, but do not spit to what we do not understand yet.
Such an amateur mistake i.e. made by the pope (Roman Catholics) for claiming that the Big Bang theory as provided by Stephen Hawking, was actually God creating the world in 6 days would be rejected by Hawkings himself. The pope didn't realize that Hawking contradicts religion on his basis.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
21but test them all; hold on to what is good,
-----------------------------------

jonnykzj said...

@D335

"Gays and Lesbians.
Jesus main command: LOVE.

"'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
(Matthew 5:43-44)"

JK- Agree, No probs here.

"Christian may not agree with homosexual, but even to our enemies we are to love, therefor how can we hurt our own brothers and sisters?"

JK- The 1st sentence is wht is my basic concern and thats why i brought it up. The qs is "Does God condemn homosexuality EVEN FOR THOSE PPL WHO R GAY N LESBIANS WHO CANNOT HAVE FEELINGS FOR WHT WE HETERO MEN N WOMEN CLASSIFY AS OPPSOITE SEXES"?

"That maybe lack scientific theory, but let me hear your Quran version first.
If you are interested in medical terminology of homosexuals, you can try to look at: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV) which are used by all medical doctors in the world. There you can search for sexual "preference".

JK- Ive read alot abt this alreeady n the medical community seems to be in consensus THAT HS is NOT a mental disorder in such tht it is also found throughout the entire animal kingdom. BUT this doesnt have to mean the Bible is fale SINCE gays n lesbians NEED NOT BE MEN N WOMEN IN THE BIBLICAL SENSE A ALL. Thtd resoleve tht problem but one has to be willing to think this through.

"D335- Run your search engine and put the word "Quranist". Yes we all aware of those who reject Hadiths and we love to asked them, do they pray 5 times a day and where do they know how to do it?"

JK- I so far accepted only 3 prayers since tht is the nr fnd in the Quran with no specific method to pray other than inc bowings n prostarions. BUT AS U MIGHT HAVE NTICED now im starting to qs the Quran even further.

"D335- Many rev., evangelists and preachers came from medical background. I'm not a rev. myself but I came from medical background.
To be said in those term, we hold fast to what we know exactly, but do not spit to what we do not understand yet."

JK- Sure N THE SAME CLD APPLY TO certain Biblical texts. We might not have understood them properly like in case of HS e.g. At the same time we're open to the possibility tht the frmer was understood correctly n the medical didnt.

"Such an amateur mistake i.e. made by the pope (Roman Catholics) for claiming that the Big Bang theory as provided by Stephen Hawking, was actually God creating the world in 6 days would be rejected by Hawkings himself. The pope didn't realize that Hawking contradicts religion on his basis."

JK- Hawkins mainly contras only Christians like Young earth creationists or creationists claming spefiffic piece by piece assembly creation. YESin his new book he claims tht the universe can entirely have laws tht lead to all we see WITHOUT GOD. BUT TO THT i have a good reply. Check my other posts on my arguments on how to reply to atheists if we grant them tht everything cld be by chance.


"1 Thessalonians 5:21
21but test them all; hold on to what is good,"

JK- Surely!

D335 said...

"D335 -AND THAT IS THE BIAS AS I POINTED OUT, in which
1.you jumps from one topic to another
2.and you end it with the need of independent bible study."

JK- I do jump from one topic to another in many cases id agree BUT IN THESSE CASES they were clearly related. Also i wanna cover n address as many topics as possible.
D335- No you don't you only referred to what you want to hear. You just shoot your thoughts without clearing further arguments. That is why I also must remind you again and again and again, so you cannot easily mis-interpret verses or view AS YOU DID earlier. Rather again, you claim to not understand what A FULL ARGUMENT IS. .
--
"Are two things co-related? If you can stick to one argument and shoot off 4-5 more open arguments, you will have dozens of unfinished arguments."

JK- It doesnt matter. INFACT AN argument can always be opened later again. thts how self correction works. claiming to have complete knowledge of things wld be arrogant anyways. so we can always get back to something later if we find other flaws with out original pts or find new things reg it.
D335- It does matter. You keep escaping. You keep changing topics again and again.
--
"If you think no bible study has been made for the last 1800 years since the death of Jesus Christ, you surely are arrogant."

JK- ON THE CONTRARY I THINK THERE HAS BEEN. But on some issues mistakes cldve been made in the past. Thts why more than 50% mainline prtestants/catholics have no prob whtsoever excepting evolution for exmaple and increasing nr of christians can exlain why the Homosexuality condemned in the Bible doesnt apply to gays and lesbians but at best only to hetero men and women. THTS WHY I PROVIDED THE LINK.

D335 - one of the proof of your arrogance, that this last input you clearly remove major part of the questions above so far, so you will not be known to mis-interpret, or you just playing cover the track.
--
"D335- It was and still is and always will be. Check for "erasmus" check for "geneva bible", check for KJV errors. Again, you carry lack of knowledge again and again and again as I love to point it out for you."

JK- Ok so if they've been correcting themslves this is a good sign then. So maybe it's not so unfortunate then as Christians r ready rto correct their interpretations.
D335 - It is not a "GOOD SIGN" when it already happened even BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. It HAS HAPPENED.
---

"D335- "Hence" or you mean therefore, again, you bring two un-related points and try to combine it on yourself.
Nature is a book, is that the solid argument JohnyKZJ can make? Metaphorically nor Literally both doesn't make sense since you describe it ONLY that way without clarifications at all. And again you go bias with Gay and Lesbian which has no direct reference to Romans 1:20"

JK- I meant nature being a book symbolically. In other words we can INFER PART OF GOD'S NATURE AND HOW HE MADE TINGS by studfying nature.
D335 - again you remove the previous part of the topic, therefore again you are covering your track. You only pasted what I wrote, but NOT THE PART when you refer to the "nature is a book".
--

D335 said...

"You keep making false definitions, false facts and way too many open questions that you no longer focused on. ie
1. "Soul" can be hurt by a knife."

JK- Oh but i will address tht too and i have in all replies where it was brought up.

D335 - Sure, and I POINT THAT YOU ONLY COPY PASTE MY ANSWER, but not the part where you say soul can be hurt by a knife. You remove your part of the comments.
----

"D335 - AND I KEEP POINTING, that if someone stab you with a knife, your nerves will scream out for pain and again NOT YOUR SOUL."

JK- 1st of all in tht sense our brains(central nervous systems), NOT just any nerves cry out. So you are amongst those Christians who say that we humans don't posess any supernatural "us" that receives sight, sound pain etc BESIDES OUR BRAIN?

D335- Combinely being LACK OF KNOWLEDGES within the language and medical field definition. What you just suggest is YOU trying to justify your own fallacy. Sure if you want to believe that a knife can hurt your soul and you justify it with further lack of knowledge regarding nervous system. And I also don't mind if you keep believing in leprechauns or pink ponies. You are welcome to throw thousand of suggestive fallacies. No one will confirm that idiocy. Best way is you to open the dictionary of english and see what soul means and how it "separate" from the body.
---
"Unless again you failed to understand where does the PAIN comes from. But then again you missed the whole definition of SOUL and try to combine it with your own understanding without bothering to look for what is soul."

JK- Tell me your understanding of it if not the supernatural entity attached in some way to the body which escapes the body at death.

D335 - Supernatural? whoa. Now you climbed to the next step of idiocy. Go search in a dictionary AGAIN what supernatural means. More fallacy, incredible!
---

"D335- You used the wrong term and DID NOT admitted so until I pointed to you where you made the wrong terminology. NOT ONLY THAT, you also try to point that I was the one who doesnt believe that OT was Abolished."

JK- Yes coz i used the term in the wrong sense. So yes im sorry in tht sense of accusing u. it happened as a result of misundertsnading IF u agree with wht i actrually wanted to say here now.
D335- As you probably again copy paste my answer but remove the original question, I therefore criticizing your covering the tracks method. If you are not doing a full argument, therefore I accuse you of fallacy again and again.

----
"It is "Taqiya" of the extreme sense possible. Accuse the enemy of not believing of their own scripture."

JK- NOWEHERE did i say u didnt believe ur own scripture. I absoltely realize the possibility tht u cldve MISUNDERSTOOD scripture. i was not accusing u of any deliberate misrepresentation here.
D335 - By removing the evidence? Nice. Again you copy paste my answer and remove the previous comments. Taqiya 101, make yourself looks good.

D335 said...

"D335- So you said, that you are PRO to the CONCEPT OF THEISTIC EVOLUTION. Now, since Theistic evolution believe in the use of scripture, then again, PROVE TO ME that you are using the scripture to relate your concept that heaven or heavens has/have spectrums /levels."

JK- I cannot as of now show something in favor of it BUT NEITHER do i see anything either in quran or bible denying the possibility of such.

D335-How can a theistic evolution concept follower does not refer to such scriptural evidence? Therefore call yourself to be against theistic evolution. And again copy pasting my answer with removing previous argument is a conduct of fallacy.
----

"D335-Clearly as in your OWN MIND. You just skipped the whole biology and medicine just for your own sake."

JK- I think I've pointed out what i consdiered relevant reg this pt.
D335 - without evidence again and again? Call yourself AGAINST theistic evolution. Also removing the previous comments are a bad way to conduct an argument. That is Taqiya!
---

"D335-And what of the reference? Wikipedia links? Should I point you links to Bible Gateway? or howbout if I point you to emedicine.com? You can try to search for it on your own.
OR YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T BOTHER TO READ IT ANYWAY."

JK- Sure u can pt me to biblegateway when a Bible verse is concerned. Wiki is a neutral encylopedia N I ALWAYS PT OUT to check the references provided with the claims made at wiki. U MAY IGNORE any statement tht wiki makes without reference. did u get tht?

D335 - So, WHERE IS IT? should I say that I refer you an argument just by saying " go open the bible?" Remember you did paste a link without even considering what's in it. YOU DID NOT READ IT YOURSELF. Again copy pasting is such a lazy method. It's cheating.
---
"D335- And through the long arguments I can clearly see you and what you make of your arguments."

JK- Wht am i supposed to say to tht other than i cld say the same of u?

D335 - So what the heck are you trying to ask anyway? You need to be spoonfed? You did throw links and create worthless fallacies WITH NO ARGUMENTS. Clearly a fail tactic. Worthless! Not even mentioning how worthless is removing the previous comments to cover your own tracks!
---

"But rather you take hey look at these wikipedia links, and WOW, it is all connected!"

JK- Again call upon a neutral party n if he/she says tht it wasnt then ill correct myself. otherwise whts the pt of these remarks?

D335- you can call yourself "LIAR" and "CHEATER". You claim something without a backing evidence. Also not to mention that you remove the previous cmments to cover your tracks.
-----
"Fine, take a look at this www.biblegateway.com and I will say to you, IT IS CONNECTED! As simple as that."

JK- COMEON NOW! I referred u to SPECIFIC ARTICLES AT WIKI not just the homepage. So if anything plz refer me to specific verses or commentaries at biblegateway not jsut the homepage.
D335 - sure, my answer will be: look at the wiki again. And see how your OWN damn point REFUTED. woohoo! Your point is refuted already! It's in the wiki!, unless you did not read it of course as ussual.

D335 said...

"D335- Eventho you put this link
---------------------------------
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
---------------------------------
I do not regard this link as a good Christian source."

JK- Ok and why's tht? How in ur view did they misrepresent the verses in qs e.g.?

D335 - Why? because you DID NOT READ IT. Because you throw a link without even reading it. And also because you remove major parts of the comment too! Nice copy pasting method, covering your tracks eh?
---

" In fact, I believe the way they put the articles clearly showing they copy paste the verses from the bible as they need without looking at the context."

JK- Do u at least concede tht many Christians EVEN THOSE who r against HS on many topics diverge n one calls the others taking the verses out of context? CLD IT BE tht ur just saying this coz ur biased against gays n lesbians to begin with? Think abt tht.

D335 - I don't need to, I don't even care with what you say. YOU DID NOT READ the link that you gave. And remove major parts of the comments.
---

"I will show you that they wrote:

MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

Verse 18 to 27 is a long passage, and they just summarize it without even caring what was actually said.

Does the summary indicated that JESUS WAS BEING TESTED by the Sadducees regarding no-ressurection? and what the MOSAIC LAW regarding the death of a brother in which the next in line brother may marry the wife in order to carry out family name?

It is not forced for the 2nd brother to have sex with the 1st brother's wife. Howbout if the wife was 70 yrs old? Howbout is the wife has problems in uterus? Howbout Chronic Illness which made pregnancy life-threatening condition?

And yet the summary of Mel White - Soulforce goes as:
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

-----------------------------------

Now again your link to soulforce is a big DUD."

JK- I can't comment on this verse either way coz ihavnt studied it myself. It is possible they understood it for a particular time only. it is possible they r wrong ON THIS particular verse whilst ure right here n theyre tright on others where u r wrong. NOW WITH THT SAID i only pointed this out to shw u tht different understandings can exist N IF AN UNDERSTANDING MATCHES WITH NATURAL DISCOVERIES, WLD U NOT AGRE THT IT IS MORE LIKELY ACCURATE THEN THE ONE WHICH GOES AGAINST THE INDEPENDENT STUDIES OF NATURE. THT is an important pt to consider.
-----------------------------------
JK- I can't comment on this verse either way coz ihavnt studied it myself.
-----------------------------------
AHA!!!!!!
D335 - YOU JUST ADMIT IT YOURSELF. You did not care to find out! Why should I answer it for you? A waste of time to answer you back. Now I just write whatever I want to without a care of whether you going to read it or not!.


I GOT YA !!!

D335 said...

"Next one, go with one question. I'll see what I can answer with that.
Finish dozens of unfinished question you have created before moving on with new topics. The soul definition, the spectrum of heavens, whatever."

JK- Lets focus on on gays and lesbians and the findings inc them having disinct features from their hetero male and female counterparts first.

D335- Do you think I care? I waste 1 minutes just to write whatever you said back and keep pointing your own fallacy as YOU REMOVE MAJOR PORTIONS of the previous comment.
---

"Don't jumps from topic to topic."

JK- Ok lets finish tht one then to our satisfaction. BUT AS I SAID at any ater stage a new idea might popup so shldnt we then brong it up be4 we forget?

D335- You still jumping I don't care.
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"NB: I still has no idea what your religion or state of your believe.
I don't care if you are a muslim, christian, atheist, agnostic (which pro-theistic or pro-atheist), JUST DECLARE IT. "

JK- I declared it in my other post. Im Quran Alone n prefer the term "minal muslimeen" for myself which is from the Quran itself instead of "muslim".

D335 - Yes you are a "CONFUSED MUSLIM" you jump from Quran to Bible and to Quran and to Bible.
---

"Therefore we can see how you regards scripture as you said that you follow the concept of theistic evolution."

JK- Well it's not only me who does. Are there no Christians or even pastors in ur area who accept evolution coz here in Germany the majority of Christians prtotestants have no prob with evo whtsoever?

D335 - Theistic evolution USES EVIDENCE. YOU DIDN'T PROVIDE ONE, not even half. You are the loud noise of nothingness in the wilderness.