Thursday, October 13, 2011

Kim, Islam, and Spousal Rape

Well, Kim finally returned to leave a comment. Of course, she totally ignored the post where I showed that she completely contradicts the scholars she's been quoting to us, and that she's totally inconsistent in her methodology. Perhaps she'll address these issues eventually.

In response to a Muslim man knocking his wife unconscious and raping her, Kim says:

Do you really believe Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught us to rape women? Did he show us an example of this or did he show us an example of how to beat them when they deliberately refuse to obey their husband's commands over and over again?

Yes Muslim men are allowed to keep slaves both male and female. Yes Muslim men are allowed to have 4 wives.

But NOWHERE does it teach us to rape anyone or sexually assault anyone.

Again. If you have the time, prove me wrong on this subject.
Show me where the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught us to rape anyone.

Peace =)

I find it interesting that Kim keeps challenging us to "prove" her wrong. Using her methodology ("I'll believe whatever I want no matter how much evidence you present, and I'll change my methodology whenever it's convenient"), no one could ever prove anything to anyone. But for those who are open to evidence, let's examine a few facts.

First, as we've already seen, according to Islam, wives have no right to refuse sex to their husbands, unless sex will injure the woman or keep her from performing an obligatory duty. When a man wants sex, a Muslim woman must drop everything she's doing and obey her husband.

Sunan Ibn Majah 1852—It was narrated from Aishah that the Messenger of Allah said: “If I were to command anyone to prostrate to anyone else, I would have commanded women to prostrate to their husbands. If a man were to command his wife to move (something) from a red mountain to a black mountain, and from a black mountain to a red mountain, her duty is to obey him.”

Sunan Ibn Majah 1853—It was narrated that Abdullah bin Abu Awfa said: “When Mu’adh bin Jabal came from Sham, he prostrated to the Prophet, who said: “What is this, O Mu’adh?’ He said: ‘I went to Sham and saw them prostrating to their bishops and patricians (i.e. aristocrats), and I wanted to do that for you.’ The Messenger of Allah said: ‘Do not do that. If I were to command anyone to prostrate to anyone other than Allah, I would have commanded women to prostrate to their husbands. By the One in Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad! No woman can fulfill her duty towards Allah until she fulfills her duty towards her husband. If he asks her (for intimacy) even if she is on her camel saddle, she should not refuse.’”

Jami at-Tirmidhi 1160—Talq bin Ali narrated that the Messenger of Allah said: “When a man calls his wife to fulfill his need, then let her come, even if she is at the oven.”

Second, Kim seems to be asking us for a passage which says, "If your wife doesn't obey your sexual demands, it's okay to rape her." But this is a confusion, based on Kim's ignorance of what constitutes rape in Islam. Here in the West, "rape" means "having sex with a woman against her will," while in Islam, "rape" means "having sex with a woman when you have no right." Wives and slave girls have no right to refuse sex, so having sex with them, even against their will, isn't rape (according to Islam). In fact, we've already seen some of this when we examined the teachings of Kim's scholars. Islam allows a man to beat and starve a woman who doesn't obey his sexual demands. The beatings and the starvation, then, are tools to force a woman to have sex against her will. To illustrate, imagine a man kidnapping a woman, locking her in a room, and saying, "I'm going to starve you to death unless you have sex with me." When the woman finally has sex with the man, would this count as rape? Of course it would, because she was forced to have sex with him. But Islam allows men to starve and beat wives in order to force them to have sex against their will. This qualifies as "rape" in the U.S., but not in Islam.

Third, the Muslim sources do give us some instances where a man is told that he can have sex with a woman against her will. We could consider sex with captives at this point, but since the topic is "wives," let's look at verse about wives.

Kim assured us in a recent comment that Islam does not treat women as sex objects. But this totally contradicts the Qur'an, which says in Surah 2:223, "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will."

Here the Qur'an tells Muslim men that their wives are their property, and that they can use their wives' bodies however they want. Kim, of course, will respond by saying, "But it doesn't say you can rape them!" Not so fast, Kim. Let's look at the historical background of this verse.

Sunan Abu Dawud 2159—Ibn Abbas said: Ibn Umar misunderstood (the Qur’anic verse, “so come to your tilth however you will”)—may Allah forgive him. The fact is that this clan of the Ansar who were idolaters lived in the company of the Jews who were the people of the Book. They (the Ansar) accepted their superiority over themselves in respect of knowledge, and they followed most of their actions. The people of the Book (i.e. the Jews) used to have intercourse with their women on one side alone (i.e. lying on their backs). This was the most concealing for (the vagina of) women. This clan of the Ansar adopted this practice from them. But this tribe of the Quraish used to uncover their women intensely, and seek pleasure with them from in front and behind and laying them on their backs. When the Muhajirun (the Immigrants) came to Medina, a man married a woman of the Ansar. He began to do the same kind of action with her, but she disliked it, and said to him: We were approached on one side (i.e. lying on back); do it so, otherwise keep away from me. This matter of theirs spread widely, and it reached the Apostle of Allah. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: “Your wives are a tilth to you, so come to your tilth however you will,” i.e. from in front, from behind or lying on the back. By this the verse meant the place of the delivery of the child, i.e. vagina.

Notice what this Hadith says. A woman married a Muslim, but she told him that she was only willing to have sex in one position. Indeed, she ordered him to "keep away" from her unless he was prepared to honor her decision. When Muhammad heard about this, he revealed a verse of the Qur'an saying that the woman is the man's property and that he may have sex with her in any position he wants. But what does this mean? The woman refused to have sex with the man in certain positions, and Allah responded, "She's your property, so have sex with her in any position you want." Obviously, Allah was telling the man that his wife's refusal does not matter, and that he can do with her as he sees fit. This would be classified as "rape" in the U.S., but not in Islam.

Fourth, what would happen if Kim were to adopt a consistent methodology? Whenever we go with the most obvious implications of a verse, Kim responds, "But where does it say those exact words?" Thus, when we say that Islam allows a man to rape his wife, Kim says, "Show me where it says he can rape his wife." I've already done that, but I have an even more important request for Kim: "Show us where it says a man can't have sex with his wife if she refuses sex." Muhammad tells men that their wives have no right to refuse sex, that their wives are their property, and that they may discipline their wives in various ways if the wives are disobedient. If Islam doesn't allow rape, shouldn't Muhammad have clarified this by saying, "Oh, and by the way, if a wife refuses to have sex, make sure you don't touch her against her will. Islam promotes women's rights, you know."

But Muhammad didn't say this. Instead, he left it up to a man how he should treat his disobedient wife. Kim, of course, is repulsed by this, so she corrects Muhammad by adding all kinds of teachings that contradict the Qur'an. Interestingly, she doesn't allow the rest of us to add any words of clarification. Sheer hypocrisy!

So the real question for Kim would go something like this. Kim, you condemn the man who was recently convicted of raping his wife. But suppose you had met him before he committed his crime. The man says, "My wife refuses to have sex with me, but according to Allah, she has no such right! The Qur'an calls her my property, and tells me to approach my property in any way I wish! The Qur'an even allows me to punish her! I'm going to have sex with her whether she likes it or not!" How would you convince this man, based on Islamic teachings (and not on your Western values) that he should not rape his wife?

The ball is in your court, Kim.

6 comments:

search 4 truth said...

I dont think all the evidence in the world would help her to use objective reasoning. What does this mean?




Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'"

simple_truth said...

David said:

"Fourth, what would happen if Kim were to adopt a consistent methodology?"

Firstly, Kim is a troll and really doesn't wish to learn anything. Secondly, Kim wouldn't know what consistent methodology meant, even it if hit her on the head. Kim is willfully defiant of consistency.

"Whenever we go with the most obvious implications of a verse, Kim responds, "But where does it say those exact words?" Thus, when we say that Islam allows a man to rape his wife, Kim says, "Show me where it says he can rape his wife." "

Yep, I pointed that out too.

"I've already done that, but I have an even more important request for Kim: "Show us where it says a man can't have sex with his wife if she refuses sex." Muhammad tells men that their wives have no right to refuse sex, that their wives are their property, and that they may discipline their wives in various ways if the wives are disobedient."

That was my line or reasoning since proving a positive or negative from an implicit statement doesn't help either side unless the complete body of text is included and analyzed. It should be obvious to Kim that the articles that you have presented thus far do show clearly that such conduct is both possible and acceptable if a Muslim man chooses to enact it. Although I would think that most wouldn't appeal to the text, it wouldn't mean that it is not an enforceable position. We already see that most Westernized Muslims don't even agree with many of Mohammad's acts and deeds carried out in the last 10 years of his life while living in Medina. To me, it is no surprise. Thank God that He gave them some level of conscience and thought to realize that all of Mohammad's actions are not in line with common decencies of humanity. The sad thing is that many of these same Muslims will have no problem telling the West how immoral we are and that Islam is the solution to those problems.

"If Islam doesn't allow rape, shouldn't Muhammad have clarified this by saying, "Oh, and by the way, if a wife refuses to have sex, make sure you don't touch her against her will. Islam promotes women's rights, you know." "

I agree with you. By looking at those passages that you quoted, there is no restriction against them being used to support the position of wife discipline by beating and forced sex (rape). It just depends upon whether the Muslims will deny the teachings and examples that you have given thus far.

Thanks for bringing the context of that hadith into the mix. It is so clear and cut what the implications are.

simple_truth said...

search 4 truth said...

"I dont think all the evidence in the world would help her to use objective reasoning. What does this mean?"

The problem is not so much evidence as it is a cult-like mindset that permeates the Islamic world. A Muslim's moral and ethical compass relies upon their model prophet Mohammad.

PYEM Ministry said...

David got too much patient (which ofcourse we appreciate very much) for this fake troll named Kim who I believe isn't a female, to begin with. I have plenty of sexually perverted paki muslims who pose as girls online. This is called Transvestism and Muhammed used to gain pleasure from practicing it and so do the muslims.

Getting back to religion, why kim why did your Allah tell Satan to have sexual intercourse with Amina, mother of Muhammed, in Surah 17:64? I have been asking this question to top muslim scholars for 10 months and they wouldn't even address it! I even called Al-azhar university!!

Islam is stupid my time ain't worth it

ogunitracy said...

David,

I'm a bit concerned about the state of the comments here. I'm not sure that simple_truth and PYEM ministry's last comments make Kim want to listen to them. This is in danger of becoming a poo-slinging match rather than a conversation.

Granted, Kim needs some logic classes but a nicer tone might help just a little bit.

Kim said...

http://www.suhaibwebb.com/relationships/marriage-family/spouse/question-regarding-marital-rape/


Discusses this perfectly :0