Friday, June 24, 2011

Sam Shamoun Responds to 1MoreMuslim

Sam Shamoun tried posting all of this in parts, but some of them were too long and didn't go through. So here is Sam's response to 1MoreMuslim.

1MoreMuslim brought up the fact of the Christian God appearing as a man and likened that to gods appearing as stones, and therefore classifying our beliefs as idolatry.

However, if he is going to be consistent then he will have to condemn Muhammad for claiming that his god appeared as a man to him. Muslim scholar Dr. Wesley Williams mentions a narration deemed to be completely reliable or sahih by authorities such as al-Bukhari where Allah appears as a man:

According to a great number of reports deemed sound (sahih) by the hadith scholars, God came to Muhammad in a vision and Muhammad saw His form. One of the most popular of these narratives is reported on the authority of the Companion of the Prophet, Mu‘adh b. Jabal:

[Mu‘adh] narrates: One morning, the Messenger of God took a long time to come join us for the dawn prayer, until the moment where we were on the point of seeing the sun come up. The Prophet then came out hurriedly. They did the second call to prayer, and the Messenger of God did the prayer, but his prayer was short. When he had pronounced the final salutation, he shouted to us: “Remain in rows as you are!” Then he turned towards us and said: “I am going to tell you what made me lat this morning. I got up last night [to pray]. I did the ablution, I prayed what destiny wished that I pray; then while I was praying, sleepiness took me, and I fell asleep. And there, in front of me, was my Lord, under the most beautiful form (fi ahsani surati). He said [to me]: ‘Oh Muhammad!’–‘[Yes] Lord, here I am!’ He said [to me]: ‘Over what does the Exalted Council dispute?’–‘I do not know, Lord,’ I responded. He posed [to me] again two times the same question. Then I saw Him putting His palm between my shoulder blades, to the point that I felt the coolness of His fingertips (amamilihi) between my nipples, and from that moment everything became evident and known to me,” etc.75

75 Ibn Hanbal, Musnad1, 5:243; Al-Tirmidhi, Jami‘ al-Sahih, apud al-Mubarakpuri, Tuhfa, 9:106ff, #3288; Al-Suyuti, Tafsir al-Durr al-manthur, 7:203. (Williams, God in Islamic Tradition: Transcendent Anthropomorphism, 4.2. The Prophet’s Vision of God:

Williams then lists all of Muhammad’s companions who passed on this tradition and the scholars who accepted it:

This report and its variants is narrated on the authority of 12 Companions: Mu‘adh b. Jabal, Jabir b. Samura,76 Abu Hurayra,77 Anas b. Malik,78 Abu Umama,79 Abu ‘Ubayda b. al-Jarrah,80 ‘Abd al-Rahman b. ‘A’is,81 Thawban, mawla rasuli llah,82 ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Umar,83 Abu Rafi’,84 ‘Abd al-rahman b. Sabit,85 and ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Abbas.86 Hadith scholars Ibn Hanbal, Al-Tirmidhi, Abi Ya‘la al-Mawsili (d. 919), ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Abd al-Rahman al-Darimi (d. 869), ‘Uthman al-Darimi (d. 895),87 Ibn Abi Asim (d. 900), al-Tabarani (d. 971), Al-Lalika’i (d. 1027), Nur al-Din al-Haythami (d. 1405), Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani (d. 1449), and al-Suyuti (d. 1505) all reported the hadith. Khaldun Ahdab declared, “THE HADITH IS SAHIH. It was reported by a group of Companions, among them: Mu‘adh b. Jabal, Ibn ‘Abbas, ‘Abd al-Rahman b. ‘A’is, Ibn Umar, Abu Hurayra, and Anas, may God be pleased with them.”88 Ibn Mandah, in his Al-Masdar al-Sabiq said also: “This hadith is reported from ten (sic) Companions of the Prophet; and the imams of the countries, from the people of the east to the west, relayed it from them.” Al-Tirmidhi judged it hasan sahih and said: “I asked Muhammad b. Isma‘il (al-Bukhari) about this hadith and he said: HADHA SAHIH (‘This is sound’).”90 Ibn Hanbal judged it sahih91 and Muhammad b. ‘Abd Allah Hakim al-Nisaburi (933-1014) declared the isnad of Ibn ‘A’is sahih in his al-Mustadrak.92 Al-’Awzai93 and Mukhul94 transmitted the report. Ma ‘mar, ‘Abd al-Razzaq, Ayyub al-Sikhtiyani (d. 748), Mu‘awiyah b. Salih (d. 775),95 in short, the muhaddithun or hadith scholars generally accepted the hadith as sound.

Here are all the references mentioned by Williams that cite this hadith of Allah appearing as a man:

76 Al-Suyuti, Tafsir al-Durr al-manthur, 7:203, sura Sad.
77 Al-Lalika’i, Sharh usul 2:520; al-Suyuti, Tafsir al-Durr al-manthur, 7:203.
78 Al-Suyuti, Tafsir al-Durr al-manthur, 7:204.
79 Al-Suyuti, Tafsir al-Durr al-manthur, 7:204; Nur al-Din al-Haythami, Kitab majma‘ al-bahrayn fi zawa’id al-mu‘jamayn (Riyad: Maktabat al-Rushd, 1992), 370; Ibn Abi ‘Asim, Al-Sunna, 1:326, #475.
80 Khatib al-Baghdadi, Ta’rikh Baghdad, 14 vols. (Cairo, 1931), 8:151; Al-Suyuti, Tafsir al-Durr al-manthur, 7:205.
81 Ibn Hanbal, Musnad2, 27:171, #16621; ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Abd al-Rahman al-Darimi, Sunan al-Darimi, 2 vols. (Cairo: Dar al-Hadith, 2000), 1:660f; Al-Lalika’i, Sharh usul 2:514; Al-Bayhaqi, Al-Asma’ wa al-Sifat, 2:63; Ibn Abi ‘Asim, al-Ahad wa al-mathani (Riyad, 1991), 5:48; al-Haythami, Kitab majma‘, 366.
82 Ibn Abi ‘Asim, Al-Sunna, 1:328, #479; Al-Suyuti, Tafsir al-Durr al-manthur, 7:205; al-Haythami, Kitab majma‘, 367.
83 Al-Haythami, Kitab majma‘, 369, #11743.
84 Al-Tabarani, Al-Mu‘jam al-kabir (Baghdad: al-Dar al- ‘Arabiyah lil-Tiba‘ah, 1978) (hereafter Al-Mu‘jam1), 1:296, #938.
85 Ibn Abi Shaybah, al-Kitab al-musannaf fi al-ahadith wa-al-athar (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiya, 1989), 7:424.
86 Ibn Hanbal, Musnad1, 3:437, #3483; Al-Tirmidhi, Jami‘ al-Sahih, apud al-Mubarakpuri, Tuhfa, 9:101ff, #3286; Abu Ya‘la al-Mawsili, Musnad Abi Ya‘la al-Mawsili, ed. Husayn Salim Asad (Damascus: Dar al-Ma’mun lil-Turath), 4:475, #281.
87 Al-Darimi, Naqd, 2:733ff.
88 Khaldun Ahdab, Zawa’id Tarikh Baghdad ‘ala al-kutub al-sittah (Damascus: Dar al-Qalam, 1996), 6:253.
89 Apud Al-Darimi, Naqd, 2:734.
90 Al-Tirmidhi, Jami‘ al-Sahih, apud al-Mubarakpuri, Tuhfa, 9:106ff, #3288.
91 ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Abi, Al-Kamil fi du‘afa’ al-rijal, 7 vols. (Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1984) 6:2344.
92 See Al-Bayhaqi, Al-Asma’ wa al-Sifat, 2:74.
93 Al-Bayhaqi, Al-Asma’ wa al-Sifat, 2:73ff.
94 Al-Baghawi, Tafsir, 4:69; Ibn Abi ‘Asim, Al-Sunna, 1:326.
95 Ibn Abi ‘Asim, Al-Sunna, 1:328, #479; Al-Suyuti, Tafsir al-Durr al-manthur, 7:205. (Ibid.; bold and capital emphasis ours)

And since 1More referred to stones he needs to condemn his own prophet for committing blatant idolatry seeing that Muhammad would kiss and smother a black stone, something which the God of Abraham condemns:

It is Sunnah to perform certain acts in tawaf as given below:

Facing the Black Stone at the start of the tawaf while uttering a takbir (Allahu-Akbar), and a tahlil (La ilaha illahlah), and raising one's hands as they are raised in prayers, and if possible touching it with both hands and kissing it quietly, or placing one's cheek on it. Otherwise, one may touch it with one's hand and kiss the hand, or touch it with something, and then kiss it, or if even that is not possible, one may just point to it with a stick, etc. as is mentioned in some of the ahadith given below.

Ibn 'Umar said: “Allah's Messenger faced the Black Stone, touched it, AND THEN PLACED HIS LIPS ON IT and wept for a long time.” 'Umar also wept for a long time. The Prophet said: 'O 'Umar, this is the place where one should shed tears.” (Reported by Al-Hakim, who considers it a sound hadith with a sound chain of authorities)

It is reported by Ibn 'Abbas that 'Umar BENT DOWN TOWARDS THE BLACK STONE and said: "By Allah! I know that you are A MERE STONE, and if I had not seen my beloved Prophet kissing you and touching you I would have never done so." The Qur'an says: "You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct)."' (Qur'an 33.32) This was reported by Ahmad and others in slightly different words.

Nafi' said, “I have seen Ibn 'Umar touching the Black Stone with his hand, and then kissing his hand and saying: 'Ever since I saw the Prophet doing this, I have never failed to do that.''' (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim)

Sowayd bin Ghaflah said: "I have seen 'Umar kissing the Black Stone and touching it." He further said: "I know that the Prophet was especially very particular about it.'' (Muslim)

Ibn 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger used to come to Ka'bah, touch the Black Stone and then say: Bismillahi wallahu akbar (In the name of Allah, Allah is the Greatest.)" (Ahmad)

Muslim has reported on the authority of Abu Tufail that he said: "I have seen the Prophet making tawaf around the Ka'bah and touching it with a stick and then kissing the stick."

Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Daw'ud reported that 'Umar approached the Black Stone and kissed it. Then he said: "I know that you are A MERE STONE that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet kissing you, I would have never kissed you."

Al-Khatabi said: "This shows that abiding by the Sunnah of the Prophet is binding, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT WE UNDERSTAND ITS REASON OR THE WISDOM BEHIND IT."

Such information devolves obligation on all those whom it reaches, even if they may not fully comprehend its significance. It is known, however, that kissing the Black Stone signifies respect for it, recognition of our obligation toward it, and using it as a means of seeking Allah's blessings. Indeed Allah has preferred some stones over others, as He preferred some countries and cities, days and nights, and months over others. The underlying spirit of all this is unquestioning submission to Allah.

In some ahadith which say that "the Black Stone is Allah's right hand on earth," we do find, however, a plausible rationale and justification for this statement. In other words whosoever touches the Black Stone he pledges allegiance to Allah, as it were, by giving his hand into the hand of Allah, just as some followers do pledge their fealty to their kings and masters, by kissing and shaking hands with them.

Al-Muhallib said: “The hadith of 'Umar refutes the assertions of those who say that ‘The Black Stone is Allah's right hand on earth wherewith He shakes the hands of His slaves.’” God forbid that we should ascribe any physical organs to Allah [sic]. The commandment to kiss the Black Stone is meant to test and to demonstrate palpably as to who obeys and submits. It may be compared with the command to Iblis to bow to Adam.

We have no definite evidence, however, to believe that any of the stones used in building the Ka'bah originally (by Ibrahim and Isma'il), is still in existence today excepting the Black Stone. (Fiqh-Us-Sunnah, Volume 5, Number 74b – ALIM CD-ROM Version)

Muhammad's worship of the black stone is simply a carryover of the paganism of his people who were steeped in stone worship:

Narrated Abu Raja Al-Utaridi:
We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the first one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could not get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then bring a sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it. When the month of Rajab came, we used (to stop the military actions), calling this month the iron remover, for we used to remove and throw away the iron parts of every spear and arrow in the month of Rajab. Abu Raja' added: When the Prophet sent with (Allah's) Message, I was a boy working as a shepherd of my family camels. When we heard the news about the appearance of the Prophet, we ran to the fire, i.e. to Musailima al-Kadhdhab. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 661:

Now if 1MoreMuslim has a problem with God becoming and appearing as a man, and likens that to golden calf worship, then surely he must condemn Muhammad for thinking that his lord appeared to him as a man. He must further condemn his prophet for smothering a black stone. Even Muhammad's own followers couldn't understand the logic behind kissing an inanimate stone that could neither hurt nor benefit anyone.

However, it gets worse for 1Moremuslim. Muhammad also believed that his god appeared in and as fire:

When Moses said to his people 'I observe a fire, and will bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that haply you shall warm yourselves.' So, when he came to it, he was called: 'Blessed is HE WHO IS IN THE FIRE, and he who is about it. Glory be to God, the Lord of all Being! Moses, behold, it is I, God, the All-mighty, the All-wise. S. 27:7-9

Since 1MoreMuslim's god appeared in and as fire the logical thing for him to do is to start worshiping fire. After all, his prophet did kiss and smooch a black stone which some Muslims took as representing Allah's right hand on earth. Therefore, why not worship fire seeing that it was able to actually contain Allah?

1More also brings up the dead of issue of the Holy Spirit not knowing the day or hour, which only exposes his ignorance, if not his outright distortion, of the Holy Bible. He thinks that the Holy Bible is like the Quran, an incoherent piece of babble.

In the first place, 1more erroneously assumes that the phrase "no one" in Matt. 24:36 and Mark 13:32 is inclusive, that it necessarily includes every single entity with the exception of God the Father. However, if he had simply taken the time to actually read the passage he would see that such is not the case at all.

The fact that Jesus goes on to mention that neither the angels nor the Son know clearly indicates that Christ wasn’t referring to every single entity but to a more restricted group. After all, if the phrase "no one knows" meant everyone then there was no need for Christ to mention the angels and himself since they would have naturally been included already. Thus, Christ’s statement regarding angels and the Son not knowing demonstrates that Jesus was referring to a specific class of individuals, namely human beings, when he said that no one knows. In other words, Jesus was saying that no human being knows the day he would come to bring judgment upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem for rejecting him, neither the angels, not even himself. This explains why the King James Version rendered the Greek in the following manner:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth NO MAN, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

The Holy Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit knows everything that God knows and fully comprehends the very mind of God!

"God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God EXCEPT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God." 1 Corinthians 2:10-12

The Holy Scriptures explicitly state that God’s thoughts, his ways, his knowledge are infinite and beyond comprehension:

"O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! ‘For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?’ ‘Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?’ For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen." Romans 11:33-36

"O LORD, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it." Psalm 139:1-6 ESV

Therefore, in order for the Holy Spirit to know the depths of God he must be omniscient and therefore God!

Hopefully, this will put his desperate tirade against the Holy Spirit to rest. Perhaps now 1moremuslim will be able to focus on answering the objections of Anthony, instead of bringing up all these red herrings which is nothing more than his desperate attempt of avoiding the challenges to his false beliefs.

Now, instead of condemning Muhammad for idolatry, watch and see 1More go out of his way to defend the idolatrous actions of his prophet.

"Inconsistency, thy name is 1moremuslim, a.k.a. 1moreblackstonekisser!"


minoria said...

I found the info good though I think one should not call 1moremuslim names,even if he sometimes calls us names,like he has done towards me.Personally I really think he will be never be convinced but in the meantime one has good debates.Right now I am debating in a way with a Muslim Sam,another Sam but a Muslim one,in Yahya SNow's blog,and it has been good since I was able to show information that I think was unknown to them.

The blog itself is different since there are 2 anonymous commentators.One is Muslim and another Christian and you can only tell which is which by the content...and sometimes you dont know which is which

.Or maybe it was a THIRD Anonymous.I have never seen such a situation.

Kangaroo said...

Where in the world did you find that hadith? I looked in Sahih Muslim, Bukhari, Malik, and Dawud, it's not in those top 4.

Give me the reference to it please

Sam said...

Kangaroo, what in the world are you referring to?

Gottschalk said...

Where did 1moremuslim raise those objections?
I mean,Ibn Taimiyah sheikh al Islam wrote in Bayan Talbis al-Jahamia, Volume 1 page 568:

ولو قد شاء لاستقر على ظهر بعوضة"

If He (God) wants, He can sit on a mosquito's back."

and in al-Tasis fi al-rad ala Asas al-Taqdis, Volume 3 page 214:

فيتضح أنها رؤية عين كما في الحديث الصحيح المرفوع عن قتادة عن عكرمة عن ابن عباس قال قال رسول الله رأيت ربي في صورة أمرد له وفرة جعد قطط في روضة خضراء

We conclude that it was eyesight as it is in the Sahih narration from Qutada from Ikrama from Ibn Abbas said that the Prophet said : ‘I saw my God in image of beardless (man), with long curly hair in a green garden’

So what is the real idolatry? To accept the Incarnate Logos or an Allah who has curly hairs in a garden riding a mosquito's back in his essence? Because Muslims know that it is Allah's essence sitting on the throne, with the use of "Istawa bi-dhâtihi" wich means he sat on the throne "himself" or "in his essence".

And you can see here how much Bassam Zawadi and his sunni friends are in trouble on this issue here:

06-23-2008, 02:10 PM
Bassam Zawadi
"so do we believe that Allah descends in His essence? If Allah is going to come here on the Day of Judgment and He descends to the first heaven, doesn't that imply that He enters the creation (since He would have to enter heaven no. 7,6,5,4,3 & 2)?"

YES! Lol so much for 1moremuslim ridiculous attempt against our holy immaculate Faith. As said our God incarnate:

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
Matthew 7:3

Anonymous said...

Great reply Sam, and great add on Gottschalk, I find the debate between the Atharis and Ashari's interesting to say the least, even when I was a literalist Salafi there where times of doubt where I use to sneak and go and read the Ashari's refutations. If we are to take the teachings of Muhammad literally as it is claimed the Salaf did, then you truly come away with some rather strange illogical circumstances like the one in the following narration...

Ahmad ibn ‘Abd Allāh told us that his father told him: Ahmad ibn Khalid narrated to us: Yahya ibn ‘Uthman ibn Salih. narrated to us in Egypt: “I heard Nu‘aym ibn Hammad say the hadith of the descent as he was refuting the position of the Jahmiyya and Nu‘aym said: ‘He descends with His essence while He remains on His kursī.’”

This must mean there is more then one Allah, one over the kuri and one descended into the first heaven, Allah must be at least two distinct persons sharing the same divine nature, or Allah some how lowers a "part" of himself down into creation while part of himself is still over the kursi. What ever the case he has to occupy time and space which means he must be a mass of some sort, which can only mean this is some form of theophany.

Another note Salafis accuse Asharis of borrowing some of their theology form.....Augustine of all people.

toto said...

Thanks CL Edwards, your compliment from a scholar like you made me become red lol.
And you are right about the accusation against the Asha3ira, on this french salfi website, they have 2 interesting articles:


It is an article refuting GF Haddad, on the fact that Allah sit on the throne "in his essence", « bâ'in »;« bi-dhâtihi » and "al-qâ'im bi-nafsihi".

And the second:

Where they write:

Dans son ouvrage "sawmn al-mantiq", As-Souyouti rapporte les propos de l'imam Ach-Châf'î comme suit :

"In his book "sawmn al-mantiq", As-Souyouti narated these words of Imam Ach-Châf'î":

ماجهل الناس ولااختلفوا إلا لتركهم لسان العرب وميلهم إلى لسان ارسطوطاليس

"Les gens ne sont devenus ignorants et n'ont divergé entre eux que par abandon de la langue arabe et pour s'être adonné au langage d'Aristote"

"The people only became ignorants and divided(about their faith) because they gave up the arabic language to use Aristote's language".

So the salafis accuse the Asha3ira of using greek's philosophy, logic and ta'tîl in their theology against the real meaning of qur'an verses and hadiths.