Friday, June 3, 2011

British Muslims Declare: "We Will Never Integrate"

58 comments:

Joe Bradley said...

That's exactly right! They never will assimilate!

Their worldwide expectation and demand is that it is their host country which must convert to Islam. In the United States, cities under Muslim control, like Dearborn, will harass you if you don't.

Mehdi said...

If they're able to implement Sharia in the West then the West would be uncivilized and not fit for living. Muslims made their countries a hell and failed to make a good living. They seek every single opportunity to come to the West for better life. When they settled down then they start to bargain to establish Islamic laws. They enjoy all kinds of freedoms in the west which they could not even think about it. They miserably fail to realize that with Islamic laws the West would be like the countries they left for better life. I find Muslims are hypocrites...and they don't use their brains.

Joe Bradley said...

Well said Mehdi.

Muslims foul their nest wherever they go.

What good will it do for Islam to achieve world domination? They have always been at war with themselves and they will continue, regardless of their conquests.

They will render this world a Hell on Earth. Perhaps a great place for Allah, but not much good for humanity.

Fisher said...

If the British authorities had any gall, they'd apply tear gas and batons on these guys. I think some forceful measures are in order, since what these guys are doing can easily qualify as treason against the state.

Radical Moderate said...

I will say this, the guy is a very good speaker.

Radical Moderate said...

Wow just noticed something, they red haired step child in the back. He is a 17 year old kid that was highlighted in a documentary that Blind Bart had on his blog.

Igor said...

Just deport them back to their own country... or send them to one of those Islamic countries.

What's the point of keeping them anyway if they are actually parasites to the country where they are in?

Sophie said...

A few things ...

1) It's important to remember here that most British Muslims reject the idea of living under sharia - only 4 out of 10 would like to see it implemented in the UK, which, yes, is 4 out of 10 too many, but less than half ain't too bad. One survey showed that Muslims felt 'more British' than non-Muslim British. This is probably the same crowd of rabble-rousers we see every time Muslims act like idiots and get in the news; no doubt Anjem Choudary was behind this one, too.

2) Why oh why does our government give traitors like that benefits? Prolly half of those guys in that crowd live on welfare, avoiding work because they want to stay away from the kuffar.

3) He has a point about Gaddafi. Blair did cosy up to the badly dressed old loon. It's shameful.

4) He keeps on mentioning rape because he knows that it's an incendiary topic, but he also must know that any British soldier who raped would, under our law, be brought to trial whereas rape of the enemy by the conquering Muslims was sanctioned by Muhammad. He is projecting the worst of Islam onto his enemies.

donna60 said...

If American soldiers are raping Muslims women in Afghanistan and Iraq, which I know they are not...how is this contrary to Islam, which allows men to rape captive women?

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Peace be unto you. [Noble Qur'an 2:120]: Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

Deleting said...

Share the gospel, educate yourselves and others and stand up for christian rights is the only real solution.
If all else fails, expell them like Spain did.
Keep in mind it only took seven years for the muslims to come into the iberian pennisula and seven hundred years, the inquisitions, a few plagues and brute force for Spain to get the muslim problem under control.
Sorry muslims but you ARE A PROBLEM.

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf Alamo said...

"In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Peace be unto you. [Noble Qur'an 2:120]: Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah."

You (conveniently?) forgot something Yusuf, that never will the Muslims be satisfied with the God of David and Abraham (Yahweh) unless He follows the Muslim religion.

To ensure this, Islam is enforcing death, mayhem and violence against non-muslims, particularly those non-muslims who follow Yahweh, probably in the hope that Yahweh will relent and follow the Quran and abandon all of his covenants, the Torah and the Bible.

It will never happen Yusuf.

The war between Yahweh and Satan continues . . .

Ronnie Plotner said...

I pray that the Muslims will wake-up to to truth of the only true and living Lord Jesus Christ.

For the only people who will go to hell are those who reject Jesus Christ to their graves. I'd love to see you in Heaven, but only through Jesus Christ. No other way according to John 14:6 and Acts 4:12. Amen!

If a Muslim doesn't want to integrate, then live where the Sharia Law is exercised--especially in the Middle East. Don't go where you don't want to integrate.

The Sharia Law is not welcomed in America. It doesn't work for the good of the people. It only brings disharmony.

Let your heart be open to the truth.

All about Jesus,
Ronnie Plotner

Her said...

Is it wrong to say, I hate these people and send them out of our loving countries?

Joe Bradley said...

Her,

Do not hate these people, they are not worth your effort. You ask whether or not it is wrong to send them away.

Since these misfits are unhappy wherever they go, and being that the Declaration of Independence specifies "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as "unalienable Rights" endowed by our creator, it would be Un-American to do anything less that demand that they leave this country IMMEDIATELY since any pursuit of happiness here, for them, is merely an exercise in futility.

Since they will never be happy assimilating within the United States, demanding that they leave is as American as Apple Pie!

Nakdimon said...

So can anyone ON THE PLANET tell me how this is NOT hate-speech, inciting violence, discrimination against all non-muslims and bigotry?

Anyone?

goethechosemercy said...

Quote:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
end quote.

You seem to forget that you are in the West.
A place where even Pagan Polytheism is tolerated.
You have lied.
Why should we trust even one of your words when you have lied?
And your "poetic" sound is disgusting because it is insincere.
The only eloquence in Islam is brutality, rape, murder-- it is all written in blood.

Jim said...

He said Shariah even provides protection for the kuffar! With the utter disdain he has for us (we can 'go to hell') Trevor can hardly be surprised if we aren't gagging to be his dhimmi victims.

His 'protection' would be humiliation, subservience and death for those of us willing to be half as outspoken in our personal views as he is.

Perhaps Shariah will be God's judgement upon my once great Britain.

Deleting said...

Nak,
Nope. I can't see how the quran is allowed or islam for that matter....

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Peace be unto you, Joe. Coincidentally, my father is also a Christian whose name is Joe. Because of this, I like you already. In your response to my post of a Qur'anic ayat, you stated:

"You (conveniently?) forgot something Yusuf, that never will the Muslims be satisfied with the God of David and Abraham (Yahweh) unless He follows the Muslim religion. To ensure this, Islam is enforcing death, mayhem and violence against non-muslims, particularly those non-muslims who follow Yahweh, probably in the hope that Yahweh will relent and follow the Quran and abandon all of his covenants, the Torah and the Bible. It will never happen Yusuf. The war between Yahweh and Satan continues . . ."

Mr. Bradley, according to the Qur'an, Islam is the system of life created and prescribed to mankind by Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah); the Lord of Ibraheem and Da'wud (alaihee salaam). A Muslim is someone who carries out the action of submission to Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah). Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) Himself is not a Muslim (i.e. He is not in submission to Himself). You claim that there is a continuing 'War' between Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) and Shaitan. I don't agree, as this would imply that Shaitan rivals Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah). Al-Hayyul Al-Qayyum (Allah) has no rival and no equal. There is no contest when it comes to Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) for He is the Greatest, the Mightiest, the Living, the Strongest, the Self-sufficient, the Self-sustaining, the Self-subsisting, the Eternal, the One who protects all that exists, and the One who never sleeps.

[The Noble Qur'an 2:255]
Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

Mr. Bradley, it is your prerogative to disagree with the Noble Qur'an and it is your prerogative to worship someone who sleeps, eats, defecates, bleeds, dies, or is in some kind of 'contest' with a created being.

Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) willing, I will respectfully refrain from doing the same.

WAlHamdulillah, Yusuf

Yusuf Alamo said...

Please excuse the mis-spelling in my last post. I meant to type 'ayah', not 'ayat'.

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf, You state:

"Mr. Bradley, it is your prerogative to disagree with the Noble Qur'an and it is your prerogative to worship someone who sleeps, eats, defecates, bleeds, dies, or is in some kind of 'contest' with a created being."

Once again you have conveniently?) left out a key ingredient to the deity of Jesus. You forgot to mention that he was resurrected after his death.

Yusuf, as you have stated, we all have prerogatives to follow whom we choose. I choose to follow the Son Of God. If you choose to follow an individual who took a bride of 6 years old and consummated the marriage when she was 9 years old then that is your prerogative.

Yahweh willing, I will respectfully refrain from doing the same.

Yusuf Alamo said...

Praise be unto Allah and peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley.

Mr. Bradley, you conveniently left out that the idea of Prophet 'Isa (Peace and Blessings be upon him) being a deity who died or was crucified at all is purely a non-Muslim belief. Mr. Bradley, perhaps I wasn't articulate enough in my last post. It is you who believes that Prophet 'Isa (alaihee salaam) died, it is you who believes that he is a deity worthy of worship, and it is you who believes that he is the father of every human being, and his own father, as well as being his own son, who begat himself with a young girl, simultaneously making her his mother, his sister, and his daughter at the same time, simultaneously making her our sister, our niece, and our grandmother at the same time, as well as simultaneously making him our brother, our nephew, and our father at the same time. None of these beliefs are shared by Muslims. Especially me. These are your beliefs. Should you continue to believe that Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) is so filthy and incestuous, then it is at your own peril on the Day of Judgment. I do not agree with such beliefs, but again, it is your prerogative to believe what you like and Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) willing I will still respectfully refrain from sharing your beliefs. Yes, I have no problem in being a Muslim who strives to follow the noble example of the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam); a man who called people to Islamic Monotheism, discouraged anthropomorphism, prohibited idolatry and pagan worship, prohibited the distribution (and consumption) of alcohol and pork, prohibited usury, prohibited the killing of infants, prohibited the mistreatment of slaves, prohibited the torture of war prisoners, enjoined congregational prayer (at fixed times daily), enjoined alms for the poor and the needy, enjoined fasting, and yes, lawfully marrying a young girl at the age of 6 and consummating marriage with her upon the event of her first menstrual period (at the age of 9). This is an event which is considered by medical science (as well as within the society of that time and place) to be a natural sign of a female human being attaining woman-hood. With all due respect, please get over it, Mr. Bradley. People back then didn't have the benefit of the modern science that we have today. Some people throughout the world still don't have that benefit today. Female infancide was a wide spread practice in Pre-Islamic Arabia, leaving a small number of females, not to mention females who were young and strong enough to bear children. It wasn't uncommon for women to die during the struggle of giving birth. The killing of female infants was something that was practiced under the harsh conditions of the time and place (the dark ages of 7th century Pre-Islamic Arabia). Even today, not every person lives in a modern society with the benefit of proper medicine and a good education. Some people today still live in the harsh environments of the desert, or the jungle, or the mountains, or sometimes simply in a war torn area where even slavery may still exist. Children in these particularly harsh environments are given much more adult responsibility than they probably would in modern western societies. The customs and practices that we read or hear about concerning these poor souls may seem way out of the norm for us, but the rough conditions for these particular people (then and now) may have called for such measures as a means of their survival. We are in a much better position today to judge people within western society who practice such things because there aren't conditions here which warrant such measures.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you. I wanted to address a statement you made in your last post:

"Once again you have conveniently?) left out a key ingredient to the deity of Jesus. You forgot to mention that he was resurrected after his death."

Mr. Bradley, every person is scheduled to be resurrected after their death, are they not? If the key ingredient to being deified is resurrection after death, does that make every human being a deity too? No? So, why in the world would you expect me (or any other Muslim) to believe that this is legitimate proof that Prophet 'Isa (alaihee salaam) is a deity? With all due respect Mr. Bradley, I still don't even believe he ever died to begin with.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf says:

"Mr. Bradley, perhaps I wasn't articulate enough in my last post. It is you who believes that Prophet 'Isa (alaihee salaam) died, it is you who believes that he is a deity worthy of worship, and it is you who believes that he is the father of every human being, and his own father, as well as being his own son, who begat himself with a young girl, simultaneously making her his mother, his sister, and his daughter at the same time, simultaneously making her our sister, our niece, and our grandmother at the same time, as well as simultaneously making him our brother, our nephew, and our father at the same time. None of these beliefs are shared by Muslims. Especially me. These are your beliefs. Should you continue to believe that Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) is so filthy and incestuous, then it is at your own peril on the Day of Judgment."

I say:

My reference was to your prophet Mohammed, not Allah. Please endeavor to keep up with the conversation.

Yusuf says:

"I do not agree with such beliefs, but again, it is your prerogative to believe what you like and Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) willing I will still respectfully refrain from sharing your beliefs. Yes, I have no problem in being a Muslim who strives to follow the noble example of the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam); a man who called people to Islamic Monotheism, discouraged anthropomorphism, prohibited idolatry and pagan worship, prohibited the distribution (and consumption) of alcohol and pork, prohibited usury, prohibited the killing of infants, prohibited the mistreatment of slaves, prohibited the torture of war prisoners, enjoined congregational prayer (at fixed times daily), enjoined alms for the poor and the needy, enjoined fasting, . . ."

I say:

The Jews had accomplished this long before Mohammed was born. Islam has a lot for which to thank Judaism. Being that this is the case, why do the Muslims in the Eastern world hate the Jews? They should be thanking them for providing the framework for Islam.

Just as Judaism is the basis for Christianity, you have made the case that it is, similarly, the basis for Islam.

Yusuf says:

". . . and yes, lawfully marrying a young girl at the age of 6 and consummating marriage with her upon the event of her first menstrual period (at the age of 9). This is an event which is considered by medical science (as well as within the society of that time and place) to be a natural sign of a female human being attaining woman-hood."

I say:

Nope, Aisha was pre-menses when Mohammed had intercourse with her. Today this is referred to as pedophilia.

While making a valiant attempt to justify the following of Mohammed, you, still, have not made a credible case for doing so. With some individuals there is no possibility of rehabilitating their questionable character. Mohammed is one of these people.

Just accept this axiom, get over it and move on to Christianity.

Yusuf Alamo said...

Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley.

You said:

"My reference was to your prophet Mohammed, not Allah. Please endeavor to keep up with the conversation."

Mr. Bradley, I was referring to the statement you made in your previous response when you said:

"Once again you have conveniently?) left out a key ingredient to the deity of Jesus. You forgot to mention that he was resurrected after his death."

To which I responded:

"Mr. Bradley, you conveniently left out that the idea of Prophet 'Isa (Peace and Blessings be upon him) being a deity who died or was crucified at all is purely a non-Muslim belief. Mr. Bradley, perhaps I wasn't articulate enough in my last post. It is you who believes that Prophet 'Isa (alaihee salaam) died, it is you who believes that he is a deity worthy of worship, and it is you who believes that he is the father of every human being, and his own father, as well as being his own son, who begat himself with a young girl, simultaneously making her his mother, his sister, and his daughter at the same time, simultaneously making her our sister, our niece, and our grandmother at the same time, as well as simultaneously making him our brother, our nephew, and our father at the same time. None of these beliefs are shared by Muslims. Especially me. These are your beliefs. Should you continue to believe that Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) is so filthy and incestuous, then it is at your own peril on the Day of Judgment. I do not agree with such beliefs, but again, it is your prerogative to believe what you like and Al-Hayyul Qayyum (Allah) willing I will still respectfully refrain from sharing your beliefs."

*I forgot to mention that your non-Muslim beliefs also makes Prophet 'Isa (alaihee salaam) out to be our cousin and his mother (radiAllahu anha) our aunt (astaghfirullah).

Mr. Bradley, with all due respect, I can keep up with the conversation just fine.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley.

In your last response you stated:

"...Aisha was pre-menses when Mohammed had intercourse with her."

This is your opinion, Mr. Bradley. I don't agree, but again, it is your prerogative to think what you like. Sadly, it seems as though your opinion is based upon the propaganda of Christian apologists and their misguided interpretation of the textual sources of Islam.

[The Noble Qur'an 3:7]
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

May Allah guide you (and all of us) to correct understanding, ameen.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf,

"Most Muslims accept what the Hadith, Sira, and Muslim scholars say: Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was 9. But many defend this by asserting that Aisha had had her first period, thus she entered puberty, and thus was considered an adult. Somehow they’ve been misled into believing that Aisha had her first menses before she consummated her marriage with Muhammad."

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm

"The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty. (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)"

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Hadith/Topics/Marriage.htm

Other reading regarding the relationship between Muhammad and Aisha:

http://alisina.org/aisha-the-child-bride-of-muhammad/

Yusuf, there is much information regarding your hero Muhammad - quite a bit.

Yusuf Alamo said...

Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley. You've confirmed exactly what I stated in my last post:

"Sadly, it seems as though your opinion is based on the propaganda of Christian apologists and their misguided interpretation of the textual sources of Islam."

I knew that you wouldn't look for the Islamic interpretation of these texts from Muslim scholars. As suspected, you took the (misguided) interpretation of these texts from Christian apologists. Why? Because the Islamic interpretation of these texts from Muslim scholars doesn't support your world view of the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) or Islam. No surprise there.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf,

Sadly, you have chosen to cite self serving Muslim texts and have chosen to disregard the wealth of information that exists regarding Islam's founder Muhammad. Because you are locked into a system which only permits you to view sanitized versions of your religious founder, you cannot consider any other viewpoint, all of which are not from Christian apologists as you infer.

Many of the most critical viewpoints are from former Muslims who have seen the truth and have, bravely, left the faith. Why do I say bravely you might ask? Because the penalty for apostasy in the Qur'an is death.

No doubt you are looking forward to a day when Islamic law will rule and you can put Islam's detractors to death. For now you must wait in ambush as Muhammad did (Qur'an:9:14) until you get the opportunity.

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf, you articulated:

"I knew that you wouldn't look for the Islamic interpretation of these texts from Muslim scholars."

Would this individual qualify as a Muslim scholar? The reason I ask is that he bought some property and seeks to build a mosque and Islamic cultural center on it.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/dUr1NxJDC94?rel=0

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. Peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley. In your last response, you posted:

"Sadly, you have chosen to cite self serving Muslim texts and have chosen to disregard the wealth of information that exists regarding Islam's founder Muhammad."

I am required to inform you that Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) did not write the Qur'an nor was he the founder of Islam.

[The Noble Qur'an 29:48]
And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.

The definition of Islam is not to serve oneself. It is defined as the action of peacefully submitting oneself to Allah alone; the Lord of the worlds.

[The Noble Qur'an 6:71]
Say: "Shall we indeed call on others besides Allah,- things that can do us neither good nor harm,- and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah? - like one whom the evil ones have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling, come to us', (vainly) guiding him to the path." Say: "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to submit ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;-

Before I became a Muslim, I read the translation of the Noble Qur'an. Upon reading it and learning about the fundamental tenets of Islam, I discovered what this system of life (basically) required of me.

[The Noble Qur'an 6:151]
Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

Looking back, I'm incredibly grateful. Whatever I initially may have thought I gave up in leaving Christianity and becoming Muslim, I am secure in my conviction that I've gained much more in terms of salvation, love, faith, knowledge, understanding, and brotherhood. Because of this, I refuse to ever associate partners with the Lord.

You also stated:

"Because you are locked into a system which only permits you to view sanitized versions of your religious founder..."

Should you (again) be referring to Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam), then I am required to inform you (again) that he did not write the Qur'an nor was he the founder of Islam.

[The Noble Qur'an 2:132]
And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

You continued, saying:

"...you cannot consider any other viewpoint, all of which are not from Christian apologists as you infer."

Mr. Bradley, I don't think I was ever the best Christian. I tried to be. I was (and am) studious, thorough, and meticulous. I believe in following rules, law, and order. I spent the first twenty-nine years of my life as a practicing Christian. I seriously considered the other viewpoints. I seriously considered the arguments against Islam and against the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam). I seriously considered all of the the risks that were involved to my salvation in the hereafter, my livelihood and reputation, as well as the reputation of my parents. I considered the allegations and accusations that were bound to be hurled at me. I seriously considered the severe sacrifice involved. It took me seven long years (following Sept 11th 2001) to research Islam and execute my right to freedom of religion by becoming a Muslim. I consider Islam to be the best thing to ever happen to me and no one can take it away from me except Allah; the Lord of worlds.

WAlHamdulillah, Yusuf

Yusuf Alamo said...

Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley.

I forgot to address the end of your last post when you stated:

"Many of the most critical viewpoints are from former Muslims who have seen the truth and have, bravely, left the faith."

I agree that it takes bravery for one to risk their life for the sake of their beliefs. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mahatma Ghandhi, Nelson Mandela, and Malcolm X (raheemAllah) were all similar in their conviction that any belief not worth risk was not worth having.

"Why do I say bravely you might ask? Because the penalty for apostasy in the Qur'an is death."

No. According to the Qur'an, committing treason, propagating revolt, and inciting anarchy within the boundaries of an Islamic state (or within the boundaries of a sovereign Muslim land) is punishable by either exile, death, or the cutting off of the hands and feet (of the convicted person) from opposite sides. It needs to be more than just simply becoming an apostate of Islam. Within the boundaries of an ideal Islamic state, everything pertaining to this matter should ideally be judged on a case-by-case basis according to the jurisprudence of Islam. However, within the boundaries of the U.S. this Qur'anic law does not apply because this is not a Muslim land. Our country does not govern according to the rules and regulations of the Qur'an. Our country governs according to the rules and regulations of the U.S. Constitution. According to the U.S. Constitution, we here in America are allowed to verbally criticize (or verbally incite hatred and enmity) towards any country outside our own, as well as any religious affiliation or it's adherents. This may be classified as unpopular speech which (within the boundaries of the U.S.) is protected by our Constitution.

Lastly, when you stated:

"No doubt you are looking forward to a day when Islamic law will rule and you can put Islam's detractors to death. For now you must wait in ambush as Muhammad did (Qur'an:9:14) until you get the opportunity."

No, I'm simply working and trying to get through my day just like everyone else.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf, Regretably, I must inform you that you are in error.

"Most religious historians view Islam as having been founded in 622 CE by Muhammad the Prophet (peace be upon him).* He lived from about 570 to 632 CE)."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_intr.htm

"Islam was founded by Muhammad (also spelled Mohammed or Muhammed) around 622 CE."

http://religion.lifetips.com/tip/67437/islam/understanding-islam/who-founded-islam-when.html

"World religion founded by the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him). Founded in the 7th century, Islam is the youngest of the three monotheistic world religions (with Judaism and Christianity). An adherent to Islam is a Muslim."

http://www.afghan-network.net/Islam/

And so on, and so on, and so on . . .

While it is true that, like Judaism and Christianity, Islam is considered an "Abrahamic religion", it was, in fact, Muhammad who codified the, alleged, word of Gabriel in, what is now, the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the foundational document for Islam which was written by Muhammad, ergo, Muhammad was the founder of Islam.

"On the 27th night of Ramadan 13 B.H. (Before Hijerah), Muhammad the soul, the real person, not the body, was summoned to the highest universe and the Quran was given to him (2:97, 17:1, 44:3, 53:1-18, 97:1-5). Subsequently, the angel Gabriel helped Muhammad release a few verses of the Quran at a time, from the soul to Muhammad's memory. The Prophet wrote down and memorized the verses just released into his mind. When the Prophet died, he left the complete Quran written down with his own hand in the chronological order of revelation, along with specific instructions as to where to place every verse. The divine instructions recorded by the Prophet were designed to put the Quran together into the final format intended for God's Final Testament to the world (75:17). The early Muslims did not get around to putting the Quran together until the time of Khalifa Rashed `Uthmaan. A committee was appointed to carry out this task."

http://www.quran.org/ap28.htm

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf, one thing that we can agree on is that you are articulate, studious, thorough, and meticulous. You sure have me wearing out my keyboard on Google searches (homework was never my strong suit).

You seem to have a scholarly grasp and view of Islam. Sadly however, the Qur'an seems to have something for everybody. Those who commit jihad find solace and vindication within it's pages. Those who wish to abuse their wives, similarly find peace and justification within it's text. Those, like yourself, who seek a more scholarly meaning to Islam can find this too.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 7:13

You appear to be a reasonable voice within Islam and your demeanor invites discourse, the type of which seems to be embraced within this blog, the type of which one will be arrested for in Dearborn Michigan if one is Christian.

It is my belief that, because of these traits, your church suffered a loss when you went to Islam. Please reconsider your decision.

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf,

As a point of information regarding Apostasy in Islam and the death penalty for it, which you state is unsupported:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist." This verse is speaking of infidels (ie. "slay the infidels wherever you find them" 9:5) who obviously became Muslim to escape the sword, but the Hadith make no distinction of how a Muslim came to be a Muslim. Apostasy is always punished by death.

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.

Advocates for killing apostates have pointed out that the supporting hadith are reliable and thus qualify as law according to verse 4:80 - "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" upon finding out that he could suggest grammatical changes. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).

donna60 said...

Yusef,
Joe Bradley and I are not in agreement about your strong scholarship. Your words indicate that you have been as lazy as it gets in regards to religious studies.

Everything you have written simply states that you don't believe it. Not why you don't believe it, just that you don't believe it.-- Or that you believe the Koran, over the bible. You don't indicated why you believe the koran over the bible, but your arguement is that the Koran says it so it is true.

That circular logic is a sure sign of an intellectual sluggard! I suspect that this is the reason that you fell away from what little knowledge you had of the truth.

But you have to refute the New Testament scriptures in order to believe the Koran. Since you claim to have done this, it should be easy for you.

Paul said:

Galatians 1
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Mohammad is already suffering this eternal curse, because he rejected the gospel. Unless you are able to show evidence that Paul was a false teacher, or that these words have been corrupted, you are next to fall under this judgement

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf,

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 7:13

As with the penalty for apostasy (death), once again, for every Quranic verse which prohibits an activity, there is a counter-verse which commands the activity. The following are verses from the Qur'an, and other Islamic sources, which call for the death of the apostate from Islam. Perhaps the bizarre statements and actions of Muslims, which are reported within this blog, are the result of frustration with the conflicts within Islamic scripture. I would suggest to all that in a battle between a Muslim carrying a Qur'an and an olive branch and a Muslim carrying a Qur'an and a sabre, it will be the latter whom shall win the battle.

Joe Bradley said...

PS.

I meant to say "preceding rather than "following"

Yusuf Alamo said...

Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley. With all due respect, I know I've been keeping up with our conversation. At no time during our discussion did I state that the death penalty for apostasy is unsupported in Islam.

Allah willing, please allow me to quote the context of what was said between the both of us:

"Why do I say bravely you might ask? Because the penalty for apostasy in the Qur'an is death."

(*Remember, you said "in the Qur'an".)

To which (within this context) I specifically responded:

"No. According to the Qur'an, committing treason, propagating revolt, and inciting anarchy within the boundaries of an Islamic state (or within the boundaries of a sovereign Muslim land) is punishable by either exile, death, or the cutting off of the hands and feet (of the convicted person) from opposite sides. It needs to be more than just simply becoming an apostate of Islam. Within the boundaries of an ideal Islamic state, everything pertaining to this matter should ideally be judged on a case-by-case basis according to the jurisprudence of Islam."

I forgot to mention crucifixion, but that is besides the point. The point is that you made a comment specifically about apostasy within the Qur'an. I didn't know you were referring to the general ruling (according to the Shari'ah) concerning the penalty for apostasy within Islam. Had you phrased it in that manner, Allah willing, I would have answered within that context accordingly. Every part of my response was within the context of that particular statement you made concerning apostasy in the Qur'an. The rulings in Islam don't only come from the Qur'an. They are also extracted from the authentic chains of narration concerning Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) contained within Sahih Hadeeth. Major Muslim scholars extract rulings from the Sunnah of both the Noble Qur'an and the Authentic Hadeeth. Allah willing, I hope this clears up any confusion.

Again, as I stated earlier:

"I agree that it takes bravery for one to risk their life for the sake of their beliefs. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mahatma Ghandhi, Nelson Mandela, and Malcolm X (raheemAllah) were all similar in their conviction that any belief not worth risk was not worth having."

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Joe Bradley said...

donna60,

It is clear that Yusuf's talents are being wasted in the "religion of conflicts".

The dialog with Yusuf has given me the opportunity to do some cursory research on Islam and I find that for each justification for an action or belief in the Qur'an or the other documents held sacred within Islam, there is also justification and vindication for diametrically opposed beliefs. This would indicate that one Imam who teaches a peaceful view of Islam on one side of the street may have another Imam in another mosque teaching a violent and perverse view of Islam on the other side of the street. Both will be right and both will be wrong - this is the dilemma of the Qur'an.

As the Bible teaches us, clean and dirty water cannot be drawn from the same well. Islam still seeks to draw both from the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, the one who brandishes an olive branch is no match for one who brandishes a sword. In this environment, even a genius cannot prevail and wastes his time propounding one view of Islam when opposite views are justified within the same book.

I believe that this is one of the wide paths to destruction spoken of in Matthew 7:13 and Yusuf seems to be seeking spiritual enlightenment, an enlightenment which is not available in Islam.

I believe that Yusuf's time would be better spent returning to his roots in Christianity.

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley.

Allah willing, I'd like to address some of the ayat that you quoted from the Qur'an:

[The Noble Qur'an 4:89]
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Please note the condition that the ayah states; "But if they turn renegades..."

[The Noble Qur'an 9:11-12]
But if they repent, perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions).

Please note the context of these ayat. The context of these ayat is the refusal to uphold a pledge after making one. Specifically, about people willfully refusing to honor their pledge to uphold the pillars of Islam (specifically Salat and Zakat) after they had become Muslims. In case you didn't know, the system of Islam is built upon five pillars. Salat and Zakat are the 2nd and 3rd pillars of Islam and they are absolutely obligatory. Upon a person's decision to become a Muslim they were informed of their obligation to uphold these five pillars and they were also informed about the penalty for refusing to do so. When I became a Muslim, I willingly signed a contract, gave my handshake with my word of honor, and pledged allegiance to Allah and His messenger (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) in front of hundreds of men that I would uphold the pillars of Islam. I don't know what it is with me. Perhaps I'm too idealistic. Perhaps my views on living according to a code and being a man are too antiquated. Perhaps the honor of a man's word doesn't mean much to most people in this day and age, but I have no problem in telling you that honor means something to me, and I've never felt more honor in my life than when I became a Muslim.

So, what are the pillars of Islam?

1. (Shahada) - Pledge of Allegiance
2. (Salat) - Daily prayers
3. (Zakat) - Alms for the poor
4. (Saum) - Fasting from food, drink, and sexual relations with one's spouse from the time of sunrise until the time of sunset during the entire month of Ramadan
5. (Hajj) - Pilgrimage to the Sacred House in Makkah if able during the month of Hajj.

Any Muslim who willfully refused to uphold the obligatory pillars of Islam (after taking the pledge of allegiance to uphold them) was considered a traitor, an anarchist, and an enemy of the state. It only added insult to injury when these anarchists attacked Islam with lies, insults, and propaganda in an attempt to cause uprise and rebellion against the state. The Qur'anic penalty for this crime (treason) was clearly demonstrated during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr as-Siddeeq (radiAllahu anhu) when some Muslims refused to uphold the 3rd pillar of Islam (Zakat) by not paying alms following the death of Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam).

Allah willing, I'll have continue addressing the rest of your response later because I have to go to work right now.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf, You state:

"[The Noble Qur'an 4:89]
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Please note the condition that the ayah states; "But if they turn renegades..."

[The Noble Qur'an 9:11-12]
But if they repent, perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, then they are your brethren in religion . . ."


The implication is that if a Muslim leaves Islam and does not return, this constitutes a "renegade" status for them within Islam because they would not perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, thereby fulfilling their acts of absolution and redemption for their return to Islam [The Noble Qur'an 9:11-12]. This, then, marks the apostate for death as I have previously cited.

It is interesting that you speak extensively of honor in a Muslim's bond and promise. As I have made the case for the wide path allowed through the Qur'an*. While there may be well intentioned Muslims who are honorable, the Quranic concept of Taqiyya gives allowance to Muslims to deceive non-Muslims with lies and untruths, the theory of which (among practitioners of Taqiyya) is that Islam is in a constant state of war with idolators, apostates and non-Muslims in general so the use of Taqiyya is authorized within the Qur'an. Perhaps you would not practice Taqiyya, however, there are members of your brethren who do, bringing dishonor upon Islam and, through collateral damage, upon you as well. This is not supposition, it is a fact of life, so how does one know which Muslim is a practitioner of Taqiyya and which is not since, once again, the Qur'an teaches honor out of one side of it's figurative mouth, and deception out of the other?

_________________________

*"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 7:13

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Donna.

Allah willing, I'd like to address some statements in your last post:

"Yusef, Joe Bradley and I are not in agreement about your strong scholarship. Your words indicate that you have been as lazy as it gets in regards to religious studies."

Praise be to Allah. No, I'm not a religious scholar by any stretch of the imagination, nor have I ever claimed to be. Lazy? Perhaps. I have no problem admitting that I could (and should) be doing more to be a stronger and more knowledgeable Muslim. Allah loves the strong believer.

"Everything you have written simply states that you don't believe it. Not why you don't believe it, just that you don't believe it.-- Or that you believe the Koran, over the bible."

Yes, I certainly believe the Qur'an to be the absolute verbatim word of Allah. Anything less would be a form of disbelief. I only agree with the Bible in the parts where it concurs with the Qur'an.

"You don't indicated why you believe the koran over the bible, but your arguement is that the Koran says it so it is true."

Because you want me to give you biblical arguments. I'm a Muslim, not a Christian. Being such, I prefer not to imitate your style of discourse. I am quite at ease disagreeing with your beliefs concerning the All-Mighty utilizing the authentic textual sources of Islam and plain old common sense. I personally don't feel the need to use biblical texts to justify Islam or the Qur'an. Should other Muslims wish to do so, that is their business. I find that Islamic textual sources stand fine on their own. Quoting verses from biblical texts in an attempt to justify my Islamic position would frankly be a waste of my time. I have found that such actions imitate those who seek to bring a polemic to Islam. Allah willing, I prefer to disagree with concepts such as Allah being a 'trinity' or a 'three-in-one' deity utilizing ayat from the Noble Qur'an as well as quotations from Authentic Hadeeth with strong chains of narration. While I am not a black belt, I happen to enjoy practicing Judo. Maintaining a patient defense over a persistent attack is very much in line with who I am both on and off the mat.

"That circular logic is a sure sign of an intellectual sluggard! I suspect that this is the reason that you fell away from what little knowledge you had of the truth."

Well, since you feel that I was too scholastically sloth to continue my affiliation with Christianity, aren't you happy that I'm not a Christian anymore? It would only make sense then that Christians the world over are much better off without me, wouldn't you agree?

"But you have to refute the New Testament scriptures in order to believe the Koran. Since you claim to have done this, it should be easy for you.

Paul said:

Galatians 1
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!"

Allah said:

[The Noble Qur'an 2:79]
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

Yippee Kai Yay,
the Die-Hard Muslim

Yusuf Alamo said...

Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley. In a previous post you asked:

"Would this individual qualify as a Muslim scholar? The reason I ask is that he bought some property and seeks to build a mosque and Islamic cultural center on it."

http://www.youtube.com/embed/dUr1NxJDC94?rel=0

Lol, this guy bought property next to a pig farm and he wants to build a masjid there? SubhanaAllah, I don't know what is going through his mind. I've never heard of this man and there was nothing indicative of him being a scholar during the news report. Besides, scholars are usually very bright people.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you.

In a previous post you stated:

"While it is true that, like Judaism and Christianity, Islam is considered an "Abrahamic religion", it was, in fact, Muhammad who codified the, alleged, word of Gabriel in, what is now, the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the foundational document for Islam which was written by Muhammad, ergo, Muhammad was the founder of Islam."

I am required to remind you (again) that the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) did not write the Qur'an, nor was he the founder of Islam. It is well documented within the Qur'an that he was an illiterate with no formal education and that Islam did not originate from him.

[The Noble Qur'an 2:132]
And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam.

[The Noble Qur'an 7:157]
Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel, - he commands them for Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibat [(i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.], and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khaba'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allah's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad SAW), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Quran) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful.

[The Noble Qur'an 22:78]
And strive hard in Allah's Cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity and with all your efforts that His Name should be superior). He has chosen you (to convey His Message of Islamic Monotheism to mankind by inviting them to His religion, Islam), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship, it is the religion of your father Ibraheem (Islamic Monotheism). It is He (Allah) Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Quran), that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind! So perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), give Zakat and hold fast to Allah [i.e. have confidence in Allah, and depend upon Him in all your affairs] He is your Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.), what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.) and what an Excellent Helper!

Allah willing, I pray that these quotes that I've given you directly from the Qur'an clears up the misconception that Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) wrote the Qur'an or founded Islam, ameen.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you.

In a previous post you stated:

"The Jews had accomplished this long before Mohammed was born. Islam has a lot for which to thank Judaism."

Really? Judaism completely put a limit to the number of wives a man could take?

Before Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) was born?

Really? Judaism completely prohibited the consumption and distribution of alcoholic beverages?

Before Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) was born?

Really? Judaism completely prohibited the torture of war prisoners?

Before Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) was born?

Really? Judaism completely prohibited usury? Among non-Jews as well as Jews?

Before Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) was born?

Really? Judaism completely prohibited the killing of infants?

Before Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihee wa sallam) was born?

Allah willing, I could go on, but I think that you get the point.

"Being that this is the case, why do the Muslims in the Eastern world hate the Jews?"

Three reasons:

1. The continuing Zionist occupation of Palestine.

2. The continuing Zionist settlements along the Gaza strip.

3. The continuing Zionist oppression and killing of Palestinians throughout the region.

Allah willing, I pray that this answers your question, ameen.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

donna60 said...

Yusef

"Really? Judaism completely prohibited the torture of war prisoners?

--Rape is torture, my friend. Ask any man or woman who it has happened to.

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."

donna60 said...

Joe,

It is clear from what Yusuf writes that he has no academic talents. You are not going to get him to stay on target, because he persists in chasing his own tail.

The Koran says it so it is right. If the Koran says something wrong, like the fact that the koran says that the gospel is the word of God and cannot be corrupted, he is not going to deal with that.

Instead he is going to quote a verse in which Mohammad said that the bible is a lie. In which case, something should trigger a little buzzer in his brain that Mohammad contradicted himself.

His own tail just happens to taste a little better to him than the truth.

donna60 said...

Yusuf,

"Well, since you feel that I was too scholastically sloth to continue my affiliation with Christianity, aren't you happy that I'm not a Christian anymore? It would only make sense then that Christians the world over are much better off without me, wouldn't you agree?"

About that you are correct.

The church as been eaten alive by so called believers who were too lazy to do their own research.

Christendom has been attacked enough by so called adherents that rape children, commit immorality and and couldn't find the book of Matthew if you took them to the last page of Malachi and turned the page for them.

If you insist on being lazy, and being proud of your pedophilic, war-thug leader, then the church universal is much better off without you.

No doubt you will find more converts from those class of "Christians."

Joe Bradley said...

Yusuf, I am required to, again, correct you and, once again, inform you that Muhammad DID, IN FACT, write the Qur'an. In so doing he founded this religion during his lifetime, around 622 AD.

"On the 27th night of Ramadan 13 B.H. (Before Hijerah), Muhammad the soul, the real person, not the body, was summoned to the highest universe and the Quran was given to him (2:97, 17:1, 44:3, 53:1-18, 97:1-5). Subsequently, the angel Gabriel helped Muhammad release a few verses of the Quran at a time, from the soul to Muhammad's memory. The Prophet wrote down and memorized the verses just released into his mind. When the Prophet died, he left the complete Quran written down with his own hand in the chronological order of revelation, along with specific instructions as to where to place every verse. The divine instructions recorded by the Prophet were designed to put the Quran together into the final format intended for God's Final Testament to the world (75:17). The early Muslims did not get around to putting the Quran together until the time of Khalifa Rashed `Uthmaan. A committee was appointed to carry out this task."

http://www.quran.org/ap28.htm

[Qur'an 2:97] Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allah , confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers.


[Qur'an 17:1] Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

[Qur'an 44:3] Indeed, We sent it down during a blessed night. Indeed, We were to warn [mankind].

[Qur'an 53:1-18]

53:1 By the star when it descends,
53:2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,
53:3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.
53:4 It is not but a revelation revealed,
53:5 Taught to him by one intense in strength -
53:6 One of soundness. And he rose to [his] true form
53:7 While he was in the higher [part of the] horizon.
53:8 Then he approached and descended
53:9 And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer.
53:10 And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed.
53:11 The heart did not lie [about] what it saw.
53:12 So will you dispute with him over what he saw?
53:13 And he certainly saw him in another descent
53:14 At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary -
53:15 Near it is the Garden of Refuge -
53:16 When there covered the Lote Tree that which covered [it].
53:17 The sight [of the Prophet] did not swerve, nor did it transgress [its limit].
53:18 He certainly saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.


To be continued . . .

Joe Bradley said...

Continuing on . . .

[Qur'an 97:1-5]
97:1 Indeed, We sent the Qur'an down during the Night of Decree.
97:2 And what can make you know what is the Night of Decree?
97:3 The Night of Decree is better than a thousand months.
97:4 The angels and the Spirit descend therein by permission of their Lord for every matter.
97:5 Peace it is until the emergence of dawn.


Your misunderstanding of your religion demonstrates one of the manifest problems with Islam. The Qur'an is one of "The Wide Gates" spoken of in the warning of Matthew. The school of thought that Muhammad did not write the Qur'an and did not found Islam is easily refuted within the Qur'an itself as this is the second time, within these comments, that I have done so.

Regarding all of the accomplishments of the Jews for which Islam has to be thankful (as enumerated by you) - you are finally understanding Islam's foundation in Judaism! Praise be to Yahweh!

With regard to the three reasons you cite for the Muslims hatred of the Jews, I asked the question in a religious, not political, context, accentuating the point that, based on the information you had provided, Islam's basis on Judaism would seem to give Muslims and Jews a lot in common, however, like Cain and Abel, sometimes the relationship between brothers can be a rocky one, extending long into their decedents such as the lineage of Isaac and Ishmael.

The political aspect of the Palestinian - Israeli conflict is subject to wide interpretation.

Yahweh willing, hopefully this will guide you toward the "Narrow Gate", away from the Qur'an.

Joe Bradley said...

Donna60,

As I have pointed out in my conversation, the Qur'an can, and oftentimes does, offer diametrically opposed viewpoints on the same issue. James 3:11 raises the question whether or not clean water and dirty water can both flow from the same spring? This question is answered in the next verse, "Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water."

As I have previously stated, the Qur'an has something for everybody and it is entirely probable that two mosques, operating on the same street, can teach completely different Qur'ans operating out of the very same book. Both Imams will be right and both Imams will be wrong.

The Qur'an is exemplary of the "Wide Gate" spoken of in Matthew 7:13 although he could not have foreseen the Qur'an specifically because it did not, allegedly, come into existence until the time of Muhammad in the 7th century AD. This makes this admonition prophetic without even knowing about the Qur'an.

This problem with the Qur'an will always render a fatality to discussions which draw upon the authority of the Qur'an. This is reflected in something so basic as the question of who wrote the Qur'an. Clearly Yusuf has drawn upon the Qur'an to justify his position that Muhammad did not write it and I have quoted the justification within the same book as to Muhammad being the author. Clearly, each one of our views is widely held and widely disputed all at the same time.

Foolster41 said...

Yusuf: Jew hatred in Islam predates the state of Isreal, or the existance of the palastinain people (who only came into existence through political decree in 1948)by over 1,200 years!

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Donna.

Allah willing, I'd like to address a previous response in which you stated:

"--Rape is torture, my friend. Ask any man or woman who it has happened to."

Then you immediately quoted these three ayat from the Noble Qur'an:

[The Noble Qur'an 33:50]
O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[The Noble Qur'an 23:5-6]
Who abstain from sex, Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

[The Noble Qur'an 4:24]
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Donna, I find it unnecessary to ask a rape survivor (male or female) to confirm whether or not rape is torture. I strongly agree with you that rape is torturous for those who have been killed during the ordeal or have miraculously survived it. Anyone who commits the crime of rape (especially a Muslim) should be punished to the fullest and severest extent of the law. That being said, sex and rape are two different things. Nowhere in any of the above ayat that you quoted (as well as anywhere else in the Qur'an) does Allah make it lawful for Muslim men to physically force sexual intercourse (rape) upon a woman against her will, regardless of whether she is a free woman or a war captive. It is obvious to me that you've grossly misinterpreted these ayat from the Qur'an in a (weak) attempt to support your polemic against Islam. The above ayat that you quoted simply state that it is lawful for Muslim men to have sexual relations with their wives as well as the female captive(s) and/or slave(s) that their right hand possess. Your insinuation that the Qur'an condones rape is the same conjecture I've heard time and again on this blog. I completely disagree with any claim that the Qur'an condones rape because the the text itself prohibits Muslim men from inheriting women against their will.

[The Noble Qur'an 4:19]
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

May Allah guide you (and all of us) to right moral action and correct understanding of the faith, ameen.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Yusuf Alamo said...

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah and peace be unto you, Mr. Bradley.

In a previous post you stated:

"The implication is that if a Muslim leaves Islam and does not return, this constitutes a "renegade" status for them within Islam because they would not perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, thereby fulfilling their acts of absolution and redemption for their return to Islam [The Noble Qur'an 9:11-12]. This, then, marks the apostate for death as I have previously cited."

No, Mr. Bradley. The implication is that if any Muslim didn't perform Salat or Zakat they were considered traitors of the state (i.e. apostates). These were people who had taken their shahada and agreed to uphold all of the pillars of Islam. Later, some of them continued to uphold all of the pillars except Zakat. Ironically, these people still considered themselves Muslims. These people were (in fact) renegades, traitors, and enemies of the state (apostates) for not paying obligatory alms to the poor. I even told you about their refusal to pay the poor rate during the caliphate of Abu Bakr as-Siddeeq (radiAllahu anhu) as an example of how (despite the fact that these people still considered themselves Muslims) these people were guilty of treason according to the Qur'an. That is the reason why Abu Bakr (radiAllahu anhu) deemed them to be worthy of execution; because any refusal on the part of a Muslim to perform Az-Zakaat implied outright apostasy. Allah willing, I pray that this explanation clarifies the meaning of the above ayat you quoted, ameen.

WAsalaam, Yusuf

Joe Bradley said...

Hello once again Yusuf,

Although Donna60 never said that the Qur'an justified rape*, she did quote credible passages, in a later comment, which could be interpreted as permission by Muslim nut jobs to rape. She was correct, however, in her quoted statement as Islam DOES, in fact, condone rape.

Since the Hadith** is the interpretation of the Qur'an of which "The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider hadith to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Qur'an, Islam's holy book, as well as in clarifying issues pertaining to Islamic jurisprudence.", to ignore it's words just makes no sense in matters of Qur'anic interpretations.

So just what does the Hadith say about sex slavery and rape within Islam? Permission is granted.***

While you may hide your eyes to the overwhelming allowance of sex slavery and rape within Islam and insist that it doesn't exist, rest assured that your opinion is a very minority opinion. If you think about it, you assert that the sex slave must give her captor permission before he can have sexual intercourse with her****. The belief that it is acceptable to hold a sex slave against her will, yet not to perform sexual intercourse with her against her will is absurd. Once she is a captive, her very captivity ensures that all that she does or decides is the product of coercion.

Yusuf, you should seek out a new mosque, your Imam has really misled you.

Hopefully Yahweh will guide you to see the truth.


_____________________

* "donna60 said...

If American soldiers are raping Muslims women in Afghanistan and Iraq, which I know they are not...how is this contrary to Islam, which allows men to rape captive women?
June 4, 2011 8:54 AM"


** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

*** http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/015-slavery.htm

http://tinyurl.com/65sjz3z

**** "I completely disagree with any claim that the Qur'an condones rape because the the text itself prohibits Muslim men from inheriting women against their will.

donna60 said...

Yusuf, any woman taken into captivity cannot give her consent. She simply does not have the means and power to refuse.

Any man with a shred of integrity and righteousness acknowledges this. In the United States, it is against the law for an employer to ask sex from his employee, because the same principle applies.

A woman grasping for life, limb and welfare will consent to anything that a man forces upon her.

Do you really think that your sister would give her free consent to a smelly, stink-ridden war lord who was grasping her by the hair?