Just in case anybody missed it on the last post. ON CONSISTENCY IN MUSLIM – CHRISTIAN DEBATESA Response to James Whiteby Shabir AllyNovember 19, 2008http://shabirally.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/on-consistency-in-muslim-christian-debates-3/REFLECTIONS ON THE ALLY – WHITE DOUBLE – DEBATE Review by Shabir Ally, November 19th, 2008http://shabirally.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/reflections-on-the-ally-white-double-debate/
In case Nazam missed it none of us buy Shabir's cheap and rather lame excuses to explain away his gross dishonesty and inconsistency.And in case Nazam missed it here are the hadiths which prove that Muhammad is a false prophet according to the criterion employed by both Shabir and himself since their prophet erroneously thought that Jesus was going to descend soon during the lifetime of his companions:Narrated Abu Huraira:Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will SHORTLY DESCEND AMONGST YOU people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425)Narrated Abu Huraira:Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends AMONGST YOU as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656)Narrated Abu Huraira:Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will SOON DESCEND AMONGST YOU and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657)Narrated Abu Huraira:Allah's Apostle said "How will YOU be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends AMONGST YOU and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305 Vol 7)(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 658)Continued...
Here are some more narrations where Muhammad erroneously thought Jesus would descend during the very lifetime of his followers:"Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah said: By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (may peace be upon him) WILL SOON DESCEND AMONG YOU AS A JUST JUDGE. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it." (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0287)It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah observed: What would you do when the son of Mary would descend AMONGST YOU AND WOULD LEAD YOU AS ONE AMONGST YOU? Ibn Abi Dhi'b on the authority of Abu Huraira narrated: YOUR LEADER AMONGST YOU. Ibn Abi Dhi'b said: Do you know what the words: "He would lead as one AMONGST YOU" mean? I said: Explain these to me. He said: He would LEAD YOU according to the Book of your Lord (hallowed be He and most exalted) and the Sunnah of your Apostle. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0292)Continued...
And now for the final narration:Narrated Abu Hurayrah:The Prophet said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus. He will descent (to the earth). When YOU see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 37, Number 4310)Using Shabir's and Nazam's logic, Muhammad must be a false prophet (which he is) because he claimed that Jesus would SOON descend during the lifetime of his companions and they would be able to recognize him! Nearly 15 centuries has transpired since then and the companions have died and Christ still has not returned.Now watch and see how Nazam explains this away instead of simply accepting the fact that his prophet was wrong. He will start doing the very thing that conservative Christians do, but which his ilk reject and brush aside, and try to harmonize this false prophecy with his erroneous belief that Muhammad was God's prophet!
Wow,Sam!I NEVER knew Mohammed had said Jesus would come soon(it is authentic,since it is repeated several times in BUKHARI and MUSLIM).That makes Mohammed a false prophet by Shabir's standard.Thanks for the fascinating information.
Sam,with due respect, Shabir is not obliged to accept the ahadith methodology of Imam Bukhari or Muslim, I believe he has actually made such clear on previous occasions.
Yahya, I am aware that he throws both Bukhari and Muslim under the bus whenever it is convenient for him to do so. However, as a SUNNI what is his excuse for doing so? The chains are unreliable? Not according to the standards of Bukhari or Muslim, and all subsequent Sunni hadith scholars accept them as reliable. They were written TOO long after Muhammad's death? Well that's the case with all your extant hadiths and therefore you have no eyewitness, contemporary document that comes from Muhammad's time. This means you need to toss out all your extant hadiths. But if you do this then you end up having no information concerning Muhammad, his wives, his raids and battles etc. The real reason he would so is because these hadiths are embarrassing and expose Muhammad as a false prophet (which he is).
In fact Yahya, I can quote the Quran to show you what happens when you do not have any recourse to the hadiths or call them into question. You won't be able to make sense of the Quran when you do. Let me know if you are interested in seeing some examples.
Minoria, you are welcome. Now watch the gross inconsistency and dishonesty of Muslims like Nazam as they try to reconcile, explain away or justify Muhammad's blatant false prophecy.
Yahya:What is that suppose to mean, that he doesn't accept the Hadith that make Muhammad look bad?
I am personally unaware of Shabir's personal methodology when it comes to ahadith and dirayah, however, I know he doesn't accept Bukhari or Muslim wholesale. I understood such from his debate with 1) Dave Huntand secondly his lecture on youtube:1) Muhammad the trustworthy.You'd have to ask him what his methodology is.
As far as I've been able to gather from the debates I've seen, Shabir's hadith methodology goes something like this:(1) If a hadith contradicts the Qur'an, the hadith can be dismissed, even if it would be classified as sahih by hadith scholars.(2) For purposes of public debates, the Qur'an is to be interpreted in light of the Western values of the audience.(3) Once the Qur'an is so interpreted, hadith that conflict with this interpretation can be dismissed.You can see this methodology at work in Shabir's debate with Jay Smith on violence in the Bible and Qur'an. Shabir interprets a verse of the Qur'an to mean that Islam calls for complete peace; then he rejects Muhammad's violent history, since it conflicts with the Qur'an (or, rather, Shabir's interpretation of the Qur'an).Shabir's method is at odds with classical Islam, according to which the Qur'an should be interpreted in light of historical situations, hadith, comments from companions, etc. Shabir interprets history in light of his Qur'anic interpretations, which are based on the Western values of his audience.He does something similar when he examines Christian history. If you watch his debates on the crucifixion, you'll find that his main arguments are based on theology, rather than on history. In other words, he dismisses historical evidence based on theological conclusions he has already reached.
Dr. White did an outstanding job by refuting not only shabir's insane & foolish claims but also of zakir naik's & his followers. Shabir lost this debate very badly as he had nothing to say after Dr. White thrashed him in the first round.
If I were a Muslim, this is honestly one of those topics that I would avoid, it's an embarresment!
This is strange.Being a Sunni (Salafi) Muslim, I find it strange that Shabir doesn't accept Bukhari and Muslim unless they agree with the Qur'an.In Islam we have whats called Nasikh and Mansukh, which deals with abrogation. Therefore, throwing the Hadith away merely because it contradicts the Qur'an is not correct, to say the least.Yahya, no Islamic scholar in history ever discarded Bukhari and Muslim's Ahadith.Actually they have agreed that every hadith in those two books are authentic, and that there may be some single narrations which can be weakened, but in the end, they are all sahih.Note that I did not hear the debate, just read the comments posted here.
Yahya, you may correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked Muhammad was only called "the trustworthy" in the Sira and not in either Bukhari or Muslim. I may be wrong, but everytime I hear Muslism call Muhammad "the trustworthy" it is taken from the Sira, yes the very Sira which, when it destroys the Muslim position, the Muslims will reject outright saying its untrustworthy when it comes to information of Islam. And this is a trend that I see occurring much more often with bukhari and Muslim. As I have said previously, it will not be long before Bukhari and Muslim will be regarded on the same level as the Sira and we will have a majority of Quran-only Muslims on the planet!
Amr, I am really interested in the oppinion of the scholars that you have just attributed to them. Do they embrace ALL of Muslim and Bukhari as Sahih? please do you have a source for that?thanks,Nakdimon
Amr, in light of what you have posted I would like to ask some quick questions:1. If Sunnah can abrogate Hadith, does that not mean that in some cases Hadith are actually superior to verses in the Qur'an since they are "something better" that Allah gives to replace?2. Would giving a hadith meet the Qur'an challenge to bring a surah like it or better?3. Would a Muslim engaging in debate not require exhaustive knowledge of the Sunnah itself before using a verse from the Qur'an since that very verse may be abrogated by a hadith somewhere in the huge collection?4. When a discrepancy exists between Sunnah and Qur'an, how does one determine which abrogates the other?5. Would it be fair to say that the Hadith that abrogate Qur'anic verses are to be considered as inspired scripture?6. What do the tablets preserved in heaven contain ? The abrogated verses in the Qur'an as well as the unabrogated ones? Do they contain the hadith which abrogate the verses in the Qur'an?Thank you for your responses.
David, In the biographical account by Muhammad's childhood nurse, Muhammad claims to have been restrained by men in white. He tells that these men opened him up and rearranged his insides. This is strikingly similar to what people who believe they have been abducted by aliens in UFO's have said. They have claimed to have been put on a table and had their insides moved around or operated on in some way. Sorry if this comment is out of place.
There is no doubt that nobody can find Muhammad in Bible, or somebody really want to find Mohammad in Bible here are few verses - Matt: 7:15, 2 Pet: 2:1, 1 John: 4:1. I request all fellow Christian brothers and sisters please pray for Shabir Alley that he will see the truth of the Gospel and accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. Shabir really wasting his time and energy to prove something which is far away from the truth. I hope and pray that one day Shabir will come out of this darkness and be in the light of Jesus, Amen!
AMRThat is very interesting on Sunna abrogating Quran. I never heard that can you provide some literature on that?
Well, Sam, you are certainly wrong in saying that prophet Muhammad (saw) is false prophet (god forbid) because you are putting words in prophet's mouth and inventing more words in his originals statement which is not made by him. for instance, You falsely demonstrate that "the prophet claimed that Jesus would SOON descend during the lifetime of his companions and they would be able to recognize him",Now the hadith do not says that "during the lifetime o my companions". this statement is invented by you and is not mentioned in hadith. it just say, "soon descend amongst you", Now here "You" here means "muslims". It doesn't necessarily means "the companions".Now I give you the evidence to prove my point because I believe that I am not inventing these things by myself because It is prove by the Quran. the Quran says that "jesus is the signs of Judgment day (Qayamah)". Now more than 14 centuries have beeen past and no Qayamah. therefore, it is you who is lying but not the prophet, neither his followers.
Munaf ghori:(1) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts. (Book #34, Hadith #425)This was cut and pasted from: http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=shortly+descend&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0I fail to see your accusation that Sam misquoted this particular Hadith. It clearly says 'SHORTLY DESCEND AMONGST YOU PEOPLE (MUSLIM)' so even if he meant the muslim people in the future, how then do you explain 'SHORTLY DESCEND?'Over 1,300 years later; is hardly 'SHORTLY DESCEND!'
Bro. David, can I download this debate? Do I have the permission to download it?
I am a bit confused to what Shabir was doing when he was cross examining James...Spent most time on the existence of God, and what Christians generally believe, instead of engaging in the subject of the debate. I think this happened because Shabir wanted to get the focus off it, but it turns out, it worked very well, as James could clearly present the Gospel. Good job Dr White!
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