I am inclined to believe that the incident reveals a notorious reality about the true nature of Islam.
Here is the part of the article:
'...these madrassa students got hold of her and took her in the fields. I tried
to stop them, but they were 15-16 in number.” Seven or eight of the boys
reportedly then raped the girl while the others looked on. Before the attack
began, the teacher overheard one of the students say, “We will teach these
Christians a lesson they will never forget.”
The Christian girl, whose
name has been withheld, was left in the field until some villagers eventually
took her home to her family. The girl’s father and the teacher have attempted to
file a complaint but the officer in charge has refused to comply. Another
officer has since admitted that they are under pressure from Muslim leaders and
extremists to refrain from filing a report. The madrassa students had reportedly
been harassing believers in the surrounding villages, beating and threatening
Christian children to convert to Islam or leave the area.'
As I pointed out in the comment section:
It ... concerns me, that these culprints were all islamic students?
If raping Christian 'dhimmis' or non-believers is completely 'haram' in the Islamic religion, as some Muslims would assert (and we know from various Bukhari and Sahih Muslim passages that such is permitted) would not at least some of these youngsters oppose the act of gang-raping a Christian girl?
My question is: what makes a group of Islamic students studying Islam in a Pakistani madrassa, wanna teach the Christians (who are already dhimmis, second class citizens and suppressed) a lesson, and lesson for what?
1. What makes these students and followers of Islam gang-rape a 12 year old Christian girl?
2. What kind of a twisted mindset inspires students of the Qur’an and the Sunnah to instigate terror on suppressed Christians who are not even able to, nor have the right to defend themselves?
3. What inspires Islamic student to roam on the streets and beat and threaten Christian children either to convert to Islam or to escape the area?
What would Muslims make out of it if 10 Christian Bible students harassed local Muslim children (who were already suppressed) and gang-raped a 12 year old Muslim girl. Furthermore, what would Muslims conclude if the Christian institution and the Christian local authority condoned this action?
1. Keep in mind this incident in Pakistan did not take place in the North West Frontier, or in Taliban area but in close proximity to Islamabad the capital of Pakistan.
2. Keep also in mind that the inspiration that occupies the soul, mind and action of these kids can only derive from influence of the Qur’an and the Hadiths.
From where then does such inspiration derive?
It’s a fact that Muhammed’s close followers raped females:
Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (part of the war booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)? When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him for he deserves more than that from the Khumus." (Sahih Bukhari, vol.5, #637)
That Muhammad and Muslims in general were permitted to engage in sex with slave girls is clearly stated by the Qur'an:
Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;..." (Sura 33: 50)
These slave girls are according to the passage girls capture in war; hence this suggests sex by force or sex forced upon individuals who simply have not choice but to surrender to such attrocities.
The permission to rape females in Islam is further established by these passages (among others):
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection". (Sahih Bukhari, vol.9, #506) (further reference Bukhari 5: 459)
Abu Sirma said to Abu Said al Khudri: "O Abu Said, did you hear Allah's messenger mentioning about al-azl (coitus interrupts)?" He said, "Yes", and added: "We went out with Allah's messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl" (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: "We are doing an act whereas Allah's messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?" So we asked Allah's messenger and he said: "It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born". (Sahih Muslim vol.2, # 3371)
Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto your save those (captives) whom your right hand possesses". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."" [The Quran verse is 4:24]. (Sunan of Abu Dawud, vol.2, #2150)
It’s also a fact that dhimmis are to be subjugated and suppressed (according to Islam):
Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (Sura 9: 29).
My question is this: is rape and subjugation entirely foreign to the religion of Islam, or does it reveal an element within the nature of the Islamic mindset?
Can we truly blame a gang of Islamic students for suppressing the suppressed and raping a 12 year old girl from another religion, when the earliest Muslims and their holy writings themselves condone and instigate such actions?
I think the source of these horrific actions against innocent defenseless people is the source of Islam itself: Satan.
I wonder, am I the only one who has noticed that place where the "angel" took Mohammed on his night journey, i.e. the Temple mount is the same place that Lucifer took Jesus in his temptation? The same M.O. seems way too perfect to be a coincidence....
In regards to 33:50 in the Quran, isn't the privilege to have sex with "those whom thy right hand has come to possess from among the captives of war" only for Muhammad, and not for all Muslims? Later in the verse, it says, "...A privilege for thee, and not for other believers..."
The "privilege for thee" part refers to the fact that Muhammad could marry more than four women.
Other verses of the Qur'an clearly give Muslims the right to have sex with their captives (even married captives).
Qur'an 4:24--"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise."
ughh....you know I don't get it.... I really don't. Why oh why would you follow a religion that is not just problematic in its authenticity, but brutal in it's theology. As a human being this does not make any sense.
It is so, so sad that this kind of thing happens. My heart goes out to this poor girl. She has experienced such horrific persecution, and at such a terribly young age. Satan is most assuredly behind attacks like this. We are praying for peace and deliverance from evil, for these victims.
Praise God, His kingdom will continue to move forward, no matter how the enemy tries to thwart it!
After reading the verse of the Qur'an your quoted here it seems to me that it is CAPTIVES that are the ones that the men were allowed to have sex with not random Christian girls so I am not seeing the correlation of Islam allowing these boys to commit this horrid act. Also in the Old testament of the Bible the men also took captives and just to make it look a little better forced the women to be there wives
and in numbers after one attack on the Midianites they destroyed everyone except the virgins and gave them to the soldiers there being not enough virgins for all the soldiers they allowed those without a virgin to go and hide in a vineyard and when women came out to participate in a celebration they kidnapped them. Therefore, saying that rape and violence is only a thing of Islam is contrary to fact
I am almost shell-shocked by your silly argument...
"it seems to me that it is CAPTIVES that are the ones that the men were allowed to have sex with not random Christian girls"
You do know the meaning of being 'captives', right? You know? Captured? Held against their will?
This news is NOT about some bunch of Muslim boys having sex with one Christian girl... this is news about some bunch of Muslim boys GANG-RAPING ONE Christian girl!
To rape means to force sex upon someone against their will... and we see clearly from the article, the girl was CAPTURED against her will (hence she is now a captive) and then raped.
Very silly argument you're making...
And regarding the Numbers reference you made, I'm not sure which chapter or verse is that found, but I am VERY certain if you read further.. the passage itself would explain itself and will prove that it is NOT the same as rape or violence as you so willingly want to equate it as.
Istilah: Yes terrible things happened in the Bible, such as men stealing women to be their wives. Much worse things happened then that, but there is a difference. The Bible describes these things as they took place, what those men chose to do, but no where will you see the God of the Bible condoning such actions. Where as in the Quran, Allah, through Mohammad is condoning and even commanding such practices.
Ok, so you think its a silly argument that is fine, but please try to keep your comments from acting like I am stupid and can not understand simple words. All I was trying to state is that Islam can't be blamed for the violent acts that people who claim to follow Islam commit. I am not a muslim nor a christian I claim no religion so I am not trying to prove either right or wrong. I am simply stating what I think.
Can I ask which verses you are refering to when you state that the Qur'an promotes such acts...God does command cities to be destroyed. I am certainly aware of the worse happenings
Islam does, in fact, condone violence:
Ok, so you think its a silly argument that is fine, but please try to keep your comments from acting like I am stupid and can not understand simple words."
I apologize if my sarcasm was received badly, it was not intended to insult your intellect.. but merely to stress the understanding that you seem to overlook, when it comes to the term 'captive' and 'captured -> gangrape'.
"All I was trying to state is that Islam can't be blamed for the violent acts that people who claim to follow Islam commit."
And thus, with the same logic, you can't blame people in the bible for doing some despicable acts that were not commanded by God. (although I still don know what was the context of that situation you mentioned just now, in numbers)
However, unlike Islam, the Quran DOES have Allah condoning such things through his prophet Muhammad; e.g. having more than 4 wives, jihad for salvation, having sex with captured slaves, violence, etc.
I'm sure others here have more information than I do regarding that. (example: Sura 9:29 is a popularly quoted one)
"God does command cities to be destroyed. I am certainly aware of the worse happenings"
I'm not sure what you meant by that last phrase, so I'll ignore that for now.
God does command cities to be destroyed, yes.. but why did He do it, that is the real question.
If you read the bible more (usually before the command to destroy), you'd come to realize that God had actually gave those people a long 'grace' period (most for hundreds of years; most likely to repent and turn away from continuing to sin) before finally sending someone to destroy them all.
Christians believe that God is the ultimate judge, and thus, just as a human judge can declare death sentence to a guilty man, so does God have the right to declare death sentence on us.
But being the loving and merciful God He is, He wants us to know that He loves us and wants us to saved from our sins and allows us *plenty of* time to seek Him and repent of our sins. What's more, He will definitely do what He can to get you to realize that (e.g. sending 'messagers', visions, thoughts, sequence of events, etc).
I hope you'll be open minded, istilah, and consider God and His message of love to you. =)
I've been watching a few debates on the issue of violence in Islam...I'm siding with the muslims on this one. I would have to go back and watch them again if I were to quote any of the debates, but at the end of the debates I watched I sided with Islam
Its all good :)I really am hard to offend, but since I don't know you I didnt know if you are a sarcastic person or not. Sorry for my assumption.
Sura 9:29 is something that I thought showed the violence in Islam as well until I looked at the history behind it. At this point in time non-muslims were asked to pay a tax so that they could have all the rights as a muslim. The muslims also had to pay a tax but theres was much higher than the non-muslims. The law gave them several options of either paying the tax, leaving the area, or fighting the tax and when they are using the word Subdued in the verse they are talking about the non-muslims excepting to live under Islamic law since they are living in an Islamic state.
"If you read the bible more (usually before the command to destroy), you'd come to realize that God had actually gave those people a long 'grace' period (most for hundreds of years; most likely to repent and turn away from continuing to sin) before finally sending someone to destroy them all."
Like he did for the Egyptians...
I thought Jesus was the Ultimate judge. Thats one thing I dont like about Christian teaching Jesus coming as a man and dying for humanities sins and then he is the one judging us...He was a man he can't be God
I'll stay open-minded as long as possible :)until I decide whats true
Are you really "open-minded?" Let's see.
The J.W's say Jesus is not God. In their N.W.T we see some interesting things;
1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.
Note what it says Jesus did here; He created all things!
3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.
You gotta hear how they try to wriggle outta this one.
4 So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
They say He was "an angel." So, here they have an "angel" becoming better than other angels!
5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”?
6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
There's a little trick they play with the word "obeisance;" see you can't have angels being worshiped by anyone, so they change the meaning of it.
John 8: 24 Therefore I said to YOU, YOU will die in YOUR sins. For if YOU do not believe that I am [he], YOU will die in YOUR sins.”
So, is Jesus saying, 'unless you believe I am a created being, you will die in your sins?' What do you think?
Read S.9 from verse 1, it helps with the context.
Ok so the J.W's believe that christ is inferior to God, but I do have issues with a good many of there other teachings for example, They claim that only 144,000 followers are going to heaven. I am pretty sure that there are more than 144,000 J.W's in this world. What happened to saving all humanity. Also J.W's say that all prayers MUST go through Christ they cannot pray to god directly.
I have learnt a fair lot regarding JW and their teaching... but I won't talk about what they believe regarding Christ...
Are you a JW, first of all?
"I thought Jesus was the Ultimate judge. Thats one thing I dont like about Christian teaching Jesus coming as a man and dying for humanities sins and then he is the one judging us...He was a man he can't be God"
May I know further your understanding of Christ?
Yes, He is the Judge. It is stated in the bible (somewhere, I can't remember the verse, but can look it up online) that God has given His Son, Christ the authority to judge all creation at the end of days.
Now, how does Jesus being a man or dying for humanity make Him:
1 - not God and
2 - just a man?
Hope you can explain your position more, before I respond or explain my position.
May the Lord who is true, who is the Amen lead us all to the truth of who Jesus Christ is. =)
"He was a man he can't be God."
Do you agree the J.W, N.W.T says Jesus is God?
J.W's are not out to save all humanity. When they go door2door it's not with a passion to save souls from Armageddon, they're out to save their own necks! They're witnessing to earn their own
You have a unique 2 class religion here. 144,000 miss Armageddon, the
rest have to rough-it on earth. However, the refs' say otherwise.
Rev.7:9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.
The 'Great Crowd' are not the 144,000!
No I am not a J.W, I grew up going to a Pentecostal(ag) church. However, most of my friends are J.W's
I take most of the muslim views of Jesus.
Jesus cannot be God because first off he died, a God cannot die. GOD is forever having no end, and God would not let his own creation kill him because he created man to worship him. Who would worship a God that they just killed. I wouldn't. Also a man can't die for another mans sin because he is just a man not a god only god can forgive our sins
I hope I explained my thoughts clearly enough let me know If they are to jumbled.
"Do you agree the J.W, N.W.T says Jesus is God?"
Did you mean, do you agree the J.W, N.W.T says jesus is not God?
If that was your question then not really, I don't believe Jesus is God, yes. However, I do not believe that because there N.W.T says it.
"J.W's are not out to save all humanity. When they go door2door it's not with a passion to save souls from Armageddon, they're out to save their own necks! They're witnessing to earn their own
You have a unique 2 class religion here. 144,000 miss Armageddon, the
rest have to rough-it on earth. However, the refs' say otherwise"
Are you a J.W??
the arguments made with the bible are fine, but since I don't always believe in what it says they don't change my views very often.
My Q was; "Do you agree the J.W, N.W.T says Jesus is God?"
Once you start putting reason above revelation you're bound to run into trouble. I'm not a J.W, I've been studying them though and find many faults in their teachings, same as Islam.
"the arguments made with the bible are fine, but since I don't always believe in what it says they don't change my views very often."
If you're reasoning is what really matters we can make up anything, right? And on what basis do you listen to Muslim beliefs about Jesus? How do you decide which biblical or Koran texts to accept or reject? Islam has a made up Jesus, so do the J.W's.
When Jesus said: John 8:24 Therefore I said to YOU, YOU will die in YOUR sins. For if YOU do not believe that I am [he], YOU will die in YOUR sins.” N.W.T, He was not saying believe I am a created being. Heb.1 is one of many examples to prove Christ's deity, even in the N.W.T.
Glad to know you're not a JW. Hope your friends will learn the truth about Christ and about their Watchtower organization and come to repentance to the true Christ and be in a right relationship with Him.
Ok.. thank you for explaining yourself.
Now here are some thoughts for you.
1 - Is God spirit? Meaning He doesn't have a physical nature of any kind?
2 - Do you believe that every human body compose of a soul/spirit and a physical body?
3 - Biblical Christians believe Jesus is both fully man and fully God. Just like how we have a body of man and a spirit of man, does it not make sense (especially if you answered 'yes' to both questions earlier) that Jesus had a body of a man but instead of a spirit of a man, the spirit of God Himself?
4 - Assuming you understand the previous question, then you should be able to understand how Jesus, being God in man's form, died in his physical form, but never in His spiritual nature (since even us humans' spirits are immortal).
5 - Thus, we conclude that God never died in Jesus and men never killed God.... only His physical body which He CHOSE to enter.
Just some thoughts regarding Jesus and His divinity.
That's what Muslims do, they appeal to logical sense and what they say is true (e.g. God can't die, etc), but they never accurately represent the Biblical Christians' true understanding of Jesus's divinity. Once they do, they have no other choice but to accept it.
Now... to the next issue you mentioned, how is a man able to die for another man's sin? let alone the whole of humanity.
Istilah "because he is just a man not a god only god can forgive our sins"
It's rather strange that you say that, because Jesus, more than once in the bible, forgave sins of those who came to Him, and over and over spoke about how no one can see God or Heaven unless they come to/believe in/follow/etc Him.
But anyway, allow me to explain as best as I can, so you may understand what Jesus has done for you.
Imagine you're a thief in court with all the evidence to prove you're guilty.
The judge, being just, must pass sentence upon you; let's say 1,000,000,000,000 dollars or else be imprisoned for life.
Naturally, you can't afford the penalty and thus have to be imprisoned for life.
After passing the sentence, the judge stands from his seat, takes off his robe, steps down to the level you're at, and pays the penalty for you on your behalf.
You, who was found guilty on all charges, are now a free man for your penalty has been fully paid for by someone who was not guilty of any charges.
That is what Jesus, who is God Himself, has done for you and me, Istilah.
The bible tells us that the penalty for sin is death... and we will all die physically one day, but the bible also tells us that there's a second death; HELL, and our spirits being eternal, we will never get out of it if we died the 2nd death.
But Jesus, being God, chose to put aside His glorious majesty as our Creator and came into His creation, to humbly come down to our level, to become human Himself.
As a human, He went through all the difficulties we go through as a man; He hungered physically, He needed God spiritually (we believe in the Trinity), He was tempted by Satan himself, etc. But He perfectly overcome all of those difficulties; something none of us mere men ever did or will ever be able to do.
Jesus fulfilled many prophecies that were written in the Old Testament, but the ultimate prophecy He fulfilled was that He died on a cross after He was falsely accused and sentenced to death. He suffered excruciatingly prior to and on the cross, and died in His physical form.
Then He descended to Hades/Sheol, but being a man without sin, death/Hades holds no power against Jesus and Jesus ultimately rose from the dead 3 days after His death; proving once and for all that He is the ultimate victor, even over Death.
Thus, because of what He's done, the penalty for OUR sin has been fully paid for.
BUT, you have two choices to make, Istilah..
1 - You can reject what Jesus (who is the Judge at the end of the world) has done for you and His gracious gift of salvation and choose to live your live either ignorant of the penalty or working your way to pay the debt yourself.
(However, remember that God is a perfect and just being and can't tolerate ANY inkling of sin to enter Heaven; a drop of cyanide makes the whole glass of milk poisonous)
2 - You can believe what Jesus has done for you and accept/receive His gracious gift of salvation and choose to be forever in debt to Him.
(Being in debt to Him is not the same as being in debt to a loan shark, who doesn't care for your well-being or love you in any way)
I hope my explanation has been clear and that the Holy Spirit is working in you to let you understand how significant the Good News of Jesus Christ is for your life; both here and in the hereafter!
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