Tuesday, August 24, 2010

James White: A Gospel Message for Muslims

18 comments:

Fernando said...

James "The Infalible One" White rocks!!! He's the man... no one who disagreas whith him knows the truth... amen...

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey Fernando,

How’s it going


Why so sarcastic? Is there any thing in the video clip you disagree with?

The reason I ask is that it’s important for the Muslims who might read this to know that even though Christians might disagree on things like monergism verses snergism in our soteriology, we stand united on the beauty and necessity of the Cross.

You don't have to agree with Dr White about everything to agree about this.

It would be a shame if this wonderful message looses it’s clarity because of some petty infighting among brothers.

There are times and places for inhouse debates it’s not here and now IMHO.

I ask you to keep these words of the Lord in mind.

We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me."
(Romans 15:1-3)

I would hope and expect JW to do likewise if he were to frequent this forum

peace

The Fat Man said...

WOW, WOW, WOW.
I had to fight back tears listing to this walking down Michigan Avenue

Zack_Tiang said...

Fifth Monarchy Man,

I don't think Fernando was being sarcastic... I think he was being rather excited about Dr White's message, actually..

Traeh said...

Question:
James White says you have to be "in Jesus Christ", you can't be next to him, you have to "have a relationship with him," you can't just "tip your hat" to him, you have "to repent."

What does it mean, to repent? It doesn't mean that you become sinless. You still are a sinner. So does it mean merely that you feel inner regret and wish you were different? Does it mean more, that you make an effort to diminish your sinfulness? How do you know you are making enough of an effort? Must one be insecure about one's salvation, since one might not know if one is "repenting" enough, or repenting genuinely and sincerely enough?

And what does it mean, "to have a relationship" with Jesus. Does it mean that you must verbally talk to him privately every day? And suppose you never visually see Him in your room or wherever you talk to Him. Suppose you never audibly hear his voice replying to you...If you do all the talking, and you talk to him every day, but you hear nothing back, do you have a relationship with Him? How much should you talk with (or at?) Jesus, in order to feel secure of your salvation?

I'd be grateful to James White if he could answer or direct me to a webpage that answers these questions. I really don't understand what the specific concrete action-meaning is of the expressions "have a relationship with Jesus," "repent," etc., the things that I'm told guarantee salvation.

Bartimaeus said...

This is exactly what every Muslims needs to hear. It is the very heart of the Gospel.

Tom said...

GEEPERS! Pastor Joe and James White together, celebrating the love of the Only Living God in Christ? HALLELUJAH!

FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE! Man, this is almost as good as goin' to CHURCH! I'm with Fernando: this ROCKS!

THANK YOU, Bro. James! THANK YOU, Pastor Joe! THANK YOU, Acts 17 for making this available to us all! What a BLESSING!

KAFIR AND PROUD AND SHOUTIN' OUT LOUD! MAY JESUS CHRIST BE PRAISED!!

Tom said...

Traeh,

I'll leave it up to Bro. James to answer you but I want you to know that I am praying with you: The One Living God is calling you to Himself.

You are asking the right questions and you have come to the right place.

You could hardly be in better company. Precious Pastor Joe, our beloved David and Nabeel, the wonderful folks at ABN are ALL the very people you need in your camp for the journey you're making.

God speed you to the Blood of Christ Jesus who Loves you more than you can imagine. Please allow all of the rest of us to pray for you.

Traeh said...

I directed the question to James White, but I'd love to hear the answer from David Wood too, or any other person who knows the answers.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey Zack Tiang,

You said,

I don't think Fernando was being sarcastic...I think he was being rather excited about Dr White's message, actually..

I say,

I hope your right? I might be mistaken but I thought I remembered Fernando complaining in the past that Dr White seemed to believe he knew everything and think that those who disagree were not true Christians and I read his comments in light of that

If I’m mistaken I apologize and I repent from my tendency to jump to conclusions ;-)

http://www.acts17-11.com/repent.html


Hey Traeh,

You said,

And what does it mean, "to have a relationship" with Jesus.

I say,

The same thing it means to have a relationship with anyone.

You say,


Does it mean that you must verbally talk to him privately every day?

I say,

Do you need to verbally talk to your wife everyday in order to have a relationship with her

You say,

And suppose you never visually see Him in your room or wherever you talk to Him. Suppose you never audibly hear his voice replying to you...

I say,

Surely you understand there are means of communication other than audible talking and visually seeing.

What do you think we are doing now?

You say,

If you do all the talking, and you talk to him every day, but you hear nothing back, do you have a relationship with Him?

I say,

If you did all the talking to your wife and she never communicated back could you claim to be in a relationship with her?

You say,

How much should you talk with (or at?) Jesus, in order to feel secure of your salvation?

I say,

How much should you talk with (or at?) your wife in order to feel secure in your marriage?

This is not rocket science. Once you know that Jesus is who he claims to be and he loves you (individually) enough to go to the Cross for you the rest sort of takes care of itself.

Until you get there it will all seem odd. kind of like marital love seems to a preschooler.

peace

Tizita said...

Hi Traeh, I thought while u wait for Whites answers i will try to explain what repentence means.....

I want u to read this article which i found to explain repentance very well.
"Let us clear away some of the misunderstanding about repentance by learning what it is NOT. In the first place, repentance is not simply being afraid. Paul convicted Felix of his sins, Felix trembled with fear but he did not repent and turn (Acts 24:25). There are many people today who are afraid when they think of their sinfulness, but they, like Felix, refuse to repent, and die without hope."
"In the second place, repentance is not simply being sorry that one has sinned. The murderers of Jesus sorrowed on Pentecost at Peter's preaching. They were pierced in their hearts by godly sorrow. Yet they were told to repent (Acts 2:38). Their sorrow was godly because it was produced by their faith in gospel preaching; but it was not repentance. In the third place, repentance is not simply and solely a reformation of life, A man may quit sin and yet not repent toward God. He may quit because that particular sin renders him unpopular in his business or among his associates. Thus, he may reform his life for selfish reasons, but such reformation is not repentance. Simply stated, repentance is a change of mind, or will, based upon godly sorrow (II Corinthians 7:10), and resulting in a manner of life directed by Christ (Acts 26:20)."
"Our Lord gave us an example of repentance which we can all understand, He said, "A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard, He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went" (Matthew 21-28-29). This boy began to reflect on what he had done, and he realized that he had disobeyed his father, He became conscious of the fact that he sinned against his father, who was responsible for his very existence, and when he came to himself, he acknowledge that wrong, and then corrected it. He changed HIS MIND (repented) and did that which he said he would not do. Jesus said that was repentance."
"Christ said to the Pharisees that, "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgement with this generation, and shall condemn it; because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here" (Matthew 12:41). Jesus here says that the men of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonas. The Bible says: "God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way (Jonah 3:10). The preaching of the prophet of God changed the mind of the Ninevites, and this change led them to turn from their evil way. This change of mind was repentance."
"The Lord has given men two motives as the means of bringing them to repentance. The first motive is fear. The Bible writers say, "We must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" (II Corinthians 5:10-11). This statement, and all the warnings in the Bible are intended to move us to repent of our sins."
"The second motive God uses to bring about repentance is love. The Bible says, ". . . not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" (Romans 2:4). The goodness of God is revealed in the life and death of His only Son, Jesus Christ. As we study the life of our Lord, and see the beauty of holiness manifested through His earthly pilgrimage, then follow Him to Calvary and watch Him suffer there, dying for our sins, making it possible for poor sinners to be saved, and to become children of God, we ask why all this flow of love, why all this display of goodness? What wondrous love, 0 my soul! And the answer comes back in the Bible, "The goodness of God leadeth these to repentance."
For more go to: http://www.bible.ca/g-repentance.htm

Hopefully this will help u.

Fernando said...

Hi Fifth Monarchy Man...

I totally agree with me in this point... but I also agree with you and with Zack Tiang... you know: reality is a complex reality...

May God bless you...

hugh watt said...

Traeh:

Repent means to turn around.
When I talk with Muslims etc, and they say they repent that doesn't mean their sins are forgiven, even if they think so. In the biblical way of repenting we stop doing our own thing and going our own way, and start doing what God says and going His way. Read Romans, it's a good place to start. What all religions lack is a substitution for sins. In Christ we have such a Substitution, He suffered and died where we deserved to. He alone can pay the debt we owe to God. If you know you're a sinner and want to get right with God, confess what you know to be sin and ask forgiveness in Jesus' name. If you believe Christ shed His precious blood to wash your sin away pray and ask Him to wash your sins away. Ask the Lord to fill you with His Holy Spirit, then you'll know what relationship truly means.

Traeh said...

Thank you all for your kind answers.

So, from a couple of the answers, it sounds like "having a relationship with Jesus" means more than just engaging in an inner monologue addressed to Jesus. There is supposed to be a very real, independent, spiritual, presence that manifests and that one somehow knows is Jesus, and no one else...Or perhaps it is enough to somehow know it is a good presence?

As for repentence, Tizita quoted a writer who said,
In the first place, repentance is not simply being afraid...In the second place, repentance is not simply being sorry that one has sinned...In the third place, repentance is not simply and solely a reformation of life, A man may quit sin and yet not repent toward God. He may quit because that particular sin renders him unpopular in his business or among his associates. Thus, he may reform his life for selfish reasons, but such reformation is not repentance. Simply stated, repentance is a change of mind, or will, based upon godly sorrow (II Corinthians 7:10), and resulting in a manner of life directed by Christ (Acts 26:20)."

Okay, so repentance seems to mean a change or reformation of life, based on sorrow or love toward God (not in order to be popular with people or for other selfish reasons).

"Our Lord gave us an example of repentance which we can all understand, He said, "A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard, He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went" (Matthew 21-28-29). This boy began to reflect on what he had done, and he realized that he had disobeyed his father, He became conscious of the fact that he sinned against his father, who was responsible for his very existence, and when he came to himself, he acknowledge that wrong, and then corrected it. He changed HIS MIND (repented) and did that which he said he would not do. Jesus said that was repentance."

Okay, so repenting means one must reform one's life, follow God, turn away from sin, and do so out of love for God.

So this leads to a question. Even after one does this, one remains a sinner. Correct? Perhaps one is less of a sinner than before? Perhaps one does far more good and far less evil. But one is still a sinner. So it sounds like what is asked for in repentance is not perfect repentance, but only sufficient progress, whatever "sufficient" is in God's eyes...

If one always remains a sinner, doesn't that mean one must repent as long as one lives? And how does one know that the reformation is deep enough, thoroughgoing enough to be accepted by God?

Is it like seeing the color green or blue or red -- you know it when you see it, even if you can't explain what the color is like to a blind person who has never seen color?

Maybe if you are uncertain that your repentance is thoroughgoing enough, that uncertainty simply means you haven't repented sufficiently? Maybe you can only know if you have repented sufficiently, and continue to repent sufficiently, when some sort of an inner certainty comes to you that you are saved? Perhaps the actual spiritual presence of Jesus, independent of your own mind, must enter your mind and tell you that you are saved, before you can know you are saved?

And if you are uncertain you are saved, perhaps you can be certain that you are not yet saved?

I guess good Christians still debate some of these issues...

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey Traeh

You said,

Or perhaps it is enough to somehow know it is a good presence?

You said,

A good presence won’t do. The relationship must be with Jesus (John 14:6)

The way one knows that the communication comes from Jesus and no one else is the same way you know a communication comes from your wife and not some else.

You seem to think that this relationship with Jesus concept is all mystical and subjective. It’s not, it’s as concrete as any relationship we have.

You said,

So it sounds like what is asked for in repentance is not perfect repentance, but only sufficient progress, whatever "sufficient" is in God's eyes...

I say,

No repentance does not have to be sufficient it must only be real. Real repentance is easy for a Christian to recognize in his own life.

you said,

Maybe if you are uncertain that your repentance is thoroughgoing enough, that uncertainty simply means you haven't repented sufficiently?

I say,

When someone is born again he knows his repentance is not thoroughgoing enough.

He recognizes that he will never be able to measure up to the standards of a Holy God who demands perfection.

He trusts that the Jesus he knows and has a relationship with meets the standard and has agreed to stand in his stead.

The very fact that you talk about "sufficient repentance" means you don’t yet understand the concept we are discussing.

Again this stuff is not difficult but until you meet the Lamb of God it might sound odd to you.

It's hard to explain music to a deaf man

peace

Zack_Tiang said...

Traeh,

Repentance (biblically) means to turn away from sin and devote yourself wholly to God.
When you've devoted yourself to God and you do what you can to know more about God (mainly through reading His Word), you will pretty much automatically become a better man (with/through God's grace and help)

What you're asking, in the end, is the assurance of salvation..
Can we repent sufficiently or enough that God will accept us?
If you think you can ever repent enough to please God, then you're not viewing God very highly enough. God demands perfection..
The fact that we've failed once is enough to cause a huge chasm between us and God.
None of us can ever do anything by our own efforts to be acceptable to God... only one of us, THE Son of Man Jesus, can and did.

Repentance (biblically) is never about repenting enough or sufficiently. It is the fact that you genuinely repent of your wrongdoings and genuinely want to please God AND turn away from sin/continuing to sin.
Yes, we remain as sinners still, but that is as long as we are still living in this world.
If we are true with our faith in Jesus Christ and our walk with Him, when we die and are called to meet our Maker, Jesus Christ's cleansing blood will clean us (turning our dirty/crimson garment into white as white snow) and make us righteous before God (and thus no longer sinners).

I hope you continue to grow spiritually in Christ and I pray that you receive ro have received the Holy Spirit in you and may He lead you to all truth, specially regarding our Savior, the Christ. =)

Fernando said...

Hi you all... Is not allowed to believe that repentance is a process? a continuos redirecting, in coorperation with God's previnient grace, our faculties from our "self" to God as a consequence of the recognition of the power of Jesus' salvific life, death and ressurrection?

Zack_Tiang said...

Fernando,

I don't see any problem with continuing to be repentant to God.. or understanding repentance as a process, rather than just one particular act at one particular time in our lives.

Like what was mentioned, the issue is not the frequency of repenting that you do... It's the sincerity of the repenting. =)