Friday, July 9, 2010

An Open Message to the Muslims of Dearborn

60 comments:

Stephen said...

Please do not be so antagonistic... you are not presenting yourselves or Christianity in the best light when you do so.

James said...

I'm so stoked for the freedom 4 and the "good fight" they are fighting! I lived in Dearborn for a few years, I'm well aware of the Sharia Law (unadvertised) that is in full effect in Dearborn Michigan. It has been going on for far too long, and finally the Lord has raised himself up 4 heralds to fight the Sharia Task force, otherwise known as the Dearborn Police. It's unfortunate that Chief Haddad has made such a gross error in judgment that he thinks he rains supreme and can not be challenged. I pray this becomes a national event and that all of America wakes up to what could be next in their backyard. England already has established Sharia Law courts on their soil TODAY, who's next? Dearborn is the hot spot for the entire world outside of the middle east. As I wrote to the mayor of Dearborn (which he has yet to reply to) this is the USA not IRAN !!

bpaolucci said...

Your videos have reached NYC. We support your efforts and while saddened to see your arrests, we feel that you will prevail and this will be the first test case to stop Sharia in America.

We are fighting an uphill battle to stop the building of 4 mosques here in NYC, one on Roman Catholic Church property, one in Sheepshead Bay, in Brooklyn, NY and 2 at ground zero mere steps from what should be declared a war memorial.

Hopefully the police in Dearborn get more than some sensitivity training and you receive compensaion for the wrongful arrests. The police should have protected your rights to be there, to hand out any literature you felt you wanted to distribute and to speak freely - and that includes inside the very public event as well as right outside.

I'm glad the Thomas Moore Law Center is representing you, you are in good hands.

What you are doing is so important, words can't describe the need to know that you are fulfilling. We want you to know that we share your videos with our email lists asking each person to share them with theirs.

Keep the videos/info coming.

May God keep each of you safe.

Laura Davis said...

I'm curious. Why don't you use hidden cameras and microphones?

Mike said...

Did you say that you could PROOVE that Jesus is the divine Son of God and that he rose from the dead?!?! Before you go on defensive mode, please know I'm not saying that he is or isn't the Son of God or that he did or didn't rise from the dead.

I'm just baffled that you say you can prove something that according to the Christian worldview, needs to be believed by faith. This is implicit in the New Testament. It's my understanding of the Bible, especially the NT, that if something can be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, then there is no need for faith, and then that would not be faith.

David, I could understand you saying "we will show you EVIDENCE that Jesus is the divine Son of God and that he rose from the dead.." but to say that you can PROVE this?!?!? That's quite a claim my man, and one I have trouble believing.

Regarding your case, I anticipate a time when all the facts will come out and we will know for sure whether you guys are truly innocent or guilty of the charges against you. I must say that although I am suspicious of evangelism for any religion, it is protected by the constitution at long as it's not being done disruptively, and the fact that the police refuse to give back the cameras makes me suspicious....

Lazaro Lopez said...

Brother David...a few days ago I was impressed (by The LORD Holy Spirit I believe) to go to Warren Ave and preach The Gospel! I had an intense burden to go to the intersection of Warren & Schafer where I stand with The Gospel Banner. Also, to go to the corner where the designated area was at the Festival. Now I know why I sensed that In The Spirit. You are in The Will of God; Please see Acts 14:19-22. Be strengthened and encouraged. "And lo, I AM with you always even unto the end of the age" Matthew 28:20.
Lazaro

minoria said...

Hello Mike:

I think David meant to prove to a reasonable degree of certainty.The same for the existence of God.

EXAMPLE

Virtually all scientists say that the mathematical probabilities AGAISNT that life appeared are SO HIGH that there should be no life.

Even TODAY,they have tried to create life under FAVORABLE CONDITIONS,no success.

That in itself should prove that something,somebody made it happen to a reasonable degree of certainty.

jason said...

From my experience, some or many think the Holy Bible is a book of lies, so for me I have to have faith that it isn't. What I don't understand are the people that watch haunted house shows and don't want to believe there is a God and Satan. Maybe they're buying into the "ghost of such-n-such scenario" I believe the apparitions are demons playing the part of such-n-such to fool the masses. There's no doubt in my mind the police overstepped their bounds. There's no "suspicious" about it. It's called strong armed robbery. Mike, if you've ever had the experience of dealing with an egotistical policeman using excessive force, you could relate. Not all policeman are this way, but all are to follow orders or it's their job. Evidence vs. scientific evidence. Evidence, the Holy Bible and the scrolls found to check integrity. Faith in the scrolls. Scientific, the shroud of Turin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

David,

Great video.

If Muslims show up you get to preach the gospel to them.

If they don’t it shows that they are afraid to defend their faith against of a group that includes a philosophy professor a doctor and a 18 year old girl.

Either way the Word is preached and Christ is glorified.

All while freedom is defended and confidence is given to the timid.

Brilliant

I’ll be praying for you guys

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey Mike.

You say:

It's my understanding of the Bible, especially the NT, that if something can be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, then there is no need for faith

I say:

I think you have a distorted view of what Christian faith is.

Faith does not mean trusting in something that you don’t know to be so.

Biblical Faith is having confidence in someone proven to be trustworthy not to let you down.

The Bible (both testaments) speaks aginst the first kind of faith and commends the second.


peace

James said...

http://www.cityofdearborn.org/images/stories/PDF/Government/Mayor/mayorletter07-09-2010.pdf

I wrote the mayor, this is what he published back to me. Funny how he fails to mention that what he is saying is a big fat lie, ooops. I mean he forgot to say that the Sharia Task Force confiscated Acts 17 apologetics video equipment and viewing footage contained therein would settle the matter.

Geoff said...

I would like to see a blogged reply to the letter from the mayor of Dearborn. I also received the same letter by email from them.

Go Share Your Faith said...

James,
I got the same form letter.

Glenn Hendrickson said...

James, I got that letter too. I posted my reply on my blog.

http://eyeonapologetics.com/blog/2010/07/09/mayor-of-dearborn-responds-to-acts-17-apologetics/

Glenn Hendrickson

Nic said...

[15:1] A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
[2] The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly.
[3] The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.
[4] A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.
(Proverbs 15:1-4 ESV)

David, I can give you grace in how you deal with the authorities in Dearborn, but your attitude towards the rest of the populace is haughty.

Journey11 said...

I've been following your story intently. God be with you and bless your efforts. I am wondering if some Muslim people will be too afraid to come out and talk to you, for fear of being seen and punished? Praying for you all!

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Nick,

While we are quoting scripture

Here is one for you

But though we had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we had boldness in our God to declare to you the gospel of God in the midst of much conflict. For our appeal does not spring from error or impurity or any attempt to deceive, but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak,not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.
(1 Thessalonians 2:2-4)

I agree that folks like David and Sam at times sound a little harsh to our sensitive american ears but we need to keep in mind that their target audience is not soft upper crust politicaly correct WASPs but folks who come from a culture that respects boldness and that often considers excessive politeness to be a sign of submission and a weak argument.

If you are spreading the gospel amoung red necks or bikers you don't offer to hold hands and sing camp fire songs.

I’m praying that the God gives the Acts 17 folks wisdom and understanding to strike exactly the right tone.

I suggest you do the same

peace

minoria said...

Hello:

The French-language Muslim blog oumma.com published an article today about Octavia Nasr.It turns out she is a "Christian".In other words she was just baptized as a baby and probably has never read the Bible in her life.

I had BEFORE told you about how oumma.com had an article on FADLALLAH and they said the UNTRUTH that he had been AGAINST Hizbullah's terrorism.Hmmm,interesting.

The OCTAVIA NASR article:

http://oumma.com/Le-tweet-elimanatoire-d-une

mentions she was fired but AGAIN does NOT say WHY,not really:that Fadlallah denied the Holocaust and approved of killing innocent men,women and children.In her tweet she had said she "respected him alot."

OUMMA.COM ON FACEBOOK

They had a MAY 20 article on the Facebook BAN by PAkiSTAN because of the "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" contest.They criticized the making fun of Mohammed.

http://oumma.com/Un-concours-de-dessins-sur-le

BUT...

In the article NO MENTION of WHY there was one in the FIRST PLACE.
NO MENTION of:
1.South Park cartoon,Moh. as a bear.

2.Revolution Muslim's video to KILL the guys of South Park.

3.The DEATH THREAT,to kill the woman who suggest "Everybody Draw Moh.."

4.How she apologized,practically begged for her life.Then that OTHERS took up the cause and voila...12,000 drawings on that day.

I told you guys,that blog is a farce,they are not for human rights.

Dean said...

Do your best David. Pray before you go and the Spirit will guide your tongue. We as Christians need to fully support you in this endeavor and trust that what you speak is not meant to harm the muslim but to bring light of the truth to him/her. I'm behind you and will pray for your success in getting the gospel across to them.

sandon said...

Mr.Wood, i admire your boldness and confidence in the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. the contents on you website encourages me as i too am a missionary serving in SE Asia in a place where Islam is deceptively creeping into the community.
May God Jesus Christ bless you and those with you and embolden you on your mission. I am so glad to finally have seen that there are some American Christians who boldly expose the lies of Islam and its false prophet Muhammed, without hiding under the curtains of hypocricy, namely tolerance and acceptance. we cannot accept a lie nor watch others live a lie.
Jesus Christ the Truth, all esle is a lie.
Keep marching on for the battle is the Lord's and He has gone before you.
2 Corinthians 13:8

jason said...

The Bible (both testaments) speaks aginst the first kind of faith and commends the second.-Fifth Monarchy Man


I need help finding these scriptures.

Fisher said...

jason:

“Come now, and let us reason together" -Isaiah 1:18

"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good" -1 Thessalonians 5:21

Traeh said...

One or two people here have criticized David's manner.

It's important to distinguish that issue from the question in Dearborn about basic rights to freedom of speech and religion.

In other words, whatever imperfections there might or might not be in David's manner or style, it was wrong and a fundamental violation of free speech rights for the police to take David's camera and arrest him.

Meanwhile, as to manner and style, let's not forget the positive, too, the outstanding and excellent qualities.

VJ said...

hey folks

I just heard sami zataari was owned in a debate by a 17 yrs old...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7qXZp3q74M&feature=related

hugh watt said...

Fifth:

"I agree that folks like David and Sam at times sound a little harsh to our sensitive american ears but we need to keep in mind that their target audience is not soft upper crust politicaly correct WASPs but folks who come from a culture that respects boldness and that often considers excessive politeness to be a sign of submission and a weak argument."

I think people often miss this. I see this myself. The softly softly approach does not work with certain ones. I think those who are intimidated hide behind texts to cover their fear of man.

"If you are spreading the gospel amoung red necks or bikers you don't offer to hold hands and sing camp fire songs."

No: But it does put a funny image into my mind; think about it;}

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Jason:

Since a lesson is more powerful when scriptural incite is discovered instead of spoon-fed, I won’t do all the work for you but here are some passages to wet your appetite. Once you dive into this study you will find plenty of others


Against “blind” faith

1st John 4:1 , Proverbs 14:15 , Proverbs 22:3, 1st Thessalonians 5:21 , Habakkuk 2:19-20 , Romans 1:22-23



Commending faith as trust in the trustworthy :

Psalms 125:1 ,Psalms 25:2-3 , Matthew 6:30, Matthew 16: 8-9 , Romans 4:5


Hope that helps

peace

The Fat Man said...

I found this youtube video interesting. It is a news piece in Australian dealing with Australian Muslims.

It opens with a protest about a proposed opening of a Islamic School for 1200 students.

In another clip Muslim kids are depicted as having no place to go because a proposed Islamic Youth Center was denied.

One Muslim says in the first clip.
"Your going to have a community that is so disatached from the wider community. A community that does not have a sense of belonging what so ever. I see a generation of young people who have so much hatred, so much anger, so much frustration with in them...and when that happens you are basically in dangerous grounds.

Now here is the thing. The Australian Muslims are complaining that they are feeling ostracized, and disattached from Australian societies. One of the reasons they feel this way is because they are not allowed to build Islamic schools and youth centers.

Doesn't Oz have public schools were Muslim children can attend to intergrate with non Muslim children? Doesn't Oz have youth centers where Muslim children can go and play with non Muslim children.

The point I'm trying to make is that Muslims seem to be saying "You are ostracizing us because you won't let us separate are selves from the wrest of society. We are feeling disattached because you wont let us segregate ourselves from you. We don't feel we belong because you want our children to integrate with your children"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k3S-Ytstms&feature=related

jem said...

hello, brother david, i sense an evil spiteful spirit in you. i mean no disrepect, however you are being very antagonistic and sarcastic.... this is not the way to spread the Gospel..... Are you trying to provoke the people.. Jesus came to heal the sick.. the ones' that are in need...imagine if he took your approach??????????? it's just a suggestion,,,,,, but if the manner your spreading the Gospel isnt working why dont you take a different approach...... if you call this journalism... then it must be "yellow journalism"... I hope you find these comments as constructive....

best regards

jem

hugh watt said...

Hello bro' David:
I sense such a godly spirit in you, I mean no flattery. Satan wants to discourage you from reaching people God wants to be reached. This is a way to spread the gospel. It's bound to provoke (Satan). Obey Jesus commands; you'll (we'll) answer to Him someday. I'm waiting for more on the trial before I give Scripture on what I think regards The 4 in Dearborn. If your manner upsets people ask; 'Is it really my manner, or is Satan upset?'
I dig your journalism guys.
I hope you all find these comments constructive.

Sincerely, best regards.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey all,

I’m my area there are street preachers who stand on busy intersections holding signs that say things like
“The wages of sin is death” and “fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell” They stand out in all kinds of weather shouting fire and brimstone at the passing cars.

One day at church before Sunday school a bunch of us were discussing how these loud bible thumpers were giving decent Christians a bad name and turning people off from the gospel.

Just then our pastor came in and calmly said

“I understand your concern about the methods of these folks.Tell us how did you go about telling strangers about Jesus this week?”

There was dead silence, you could have heard a pin drop.

He then pointed out that unless we are active in sharing our faith we had no right to criticize the methods of others.

Since that time I have met several folks that were lead to the lord by those obnoxious street preachers.

They are usually not the kind of people who would stop at a booth and casually pick up a tract from a smiling evangelist.

None of this excuses rudeness or obnoxiousness.

It’s only meant to be an encouragement for boldness and unafraid truth telling to the folks that aren’t impressed by niceties and KUMBAYA Christianity

Don’t take it from me. Listen to what Paul had to say about this subject.

What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,
(Philippians 1:18)

Think about it

peace

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

jem,
If you don't believe that Jesus was ever sarcastic with His critics, then you aren't reading the Bible properly.

sandon said...

this is in response to Mike you challenges the FACT that Jesus is risen....i've give you 2 sets of proofs...ONE: the Bible itself is proof of His Deity and resurrection. i don't think you'll grasp the significance of that. TWO: the transformed lives of Born-again believers is the next best proof that He is Risen. Apart for a Risen Saviour there is no hope or transformation...or boldness (as in the case of Mr.Wood and friends) to preach the Word of God to the lost.

mkvine said...

David,

I just noticed an interesting contrast. If you compare what you guys were doing in Dearborn to what the folks are Revolution Muslim do, there is a strike contrast. The folks at Revolution Muslim openly say they love Osama Bin Laden, they openly praise homegrown terrorist like Maj. Hasan the Fort Hood shooter, they support terrorist organizations like Al-Qaeda and Hamas, they are openly against the US Government, but their freedom of speech is completely guarded and respected. No jail time for them. YET, when you guys answer a few questions from Muslims...bring in the SWAT team, bring in 10 cops with Glocks, take them all to jail and shut them up. Notice the inconsistency?

The Berean Search said...

Don't know why some people are complaining about David's attitude and/or tone in this video. I found it to be genuine and respectful. Perhaps some people aren't as acquainting with David's delivery style as I am?

jem said...

Letitia (The Damsel) said...
jem,
If you don't believe that Jesus was ever sarcastic with His critics, then you aren't reading the Bible properly.

The issue is not whether, "Jesus was ever sarcastic with his critics."

1) You nor I (nor anyone for that matter) can claim to be Jesus.
2) The Scripture (1 Peter 3:15) states......"But do this with gentleness and respect.
3) Ask yourself, "Why am i doing this (Spreading the Gospels) is it to glorify G-D or to impress people?
4) The human nature of people is, according to Sociologist, Psychologist, and Human Behaviorist, "People tend to be more open minded, receptive to hear, respect acknowledge, consent and submit to what is being said, "when there is mutual respect, sarcasm is avoided, condescending tones are avoided, and antagonistic rhetoric isn't used(trying to solicit and/or provoke anger on the other side).

The ultimate reason (and it should be the only reason) for sharing the Gospel, is to win souls for G-D; anything else falls short of the Glory of G-D.

The nature of every human being, "No one likes to criticized...."
Does the obvious need to be stated?
The key for success whether, "your trying to gain: respect, friends, establish one's perspective, or open the lines of communication.... is all dependent on Approach. As i stated before, i'm not writing to condemn nor criticize.... i'm merely providing food for thought, when it comes down to spreading the Gospel..... Because if we become, "Stumbling blocks for others," meaning if because of our actions someone does come to salvation, "WE WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE."

.....And you don't want to be in that position........


Forgive my bad manners if i have offended anyone.....this is not my intention...


Best regards


jem

Sam said...

Jem, your arguments are really bad. No one said that we are Jesus... HOWEVER, Jesus is the standard that we look to just as the Apostle said, "Imitate me AS I IMITATE CHRIST." Speaking of which, let me quote some verses where we find men of God with God's approval mocking, ridiculing, insulting the wicked and those who persist in their rebellion:

"Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One. ‘Let us break their chains,’ they say, and throw off their fetters.’ The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. Psalm 2:1-4

"but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming." Psalm 37:13

"Wisdom cries aloud in the street, in the markets she raises her voice; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out; at the entrance of the city gates she speaks: ‘How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge? If you turn at my reproof, behold, I will pour out my spirit to you; I will make my words known to you. Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded, because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you," Proverbs 1:20-26

Continued...

Sam said...

This, perhaps, explains the prophet Elijah’s mocking the false prophets of Baal, since he was only imitating Yahweh his God at this point:

"So Ahab sent to all the people of Israel and gathered the prophets together at Mount Carmel. And Elijah came near to all the people and said, ‘How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.’ And the people did not answer him a word. Then Elijah said to the people, ‘I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal’s prophets are 450 men. Let two bulls be given to us, and let them choose one bull for themselves and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood, but put no fire to it. And I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood and put no fire to it. And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the LORD, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.’ And all the people answered, ‘It is well spoken.’ Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, ‘Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many, and call upon the name of your god, but put no fire to it.’ And they took the bull that was given them, and they prepared it and called upon the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, ‘O Baal, answer us!’ But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped around the altar that they had made. And at noon Elijah MOCKED THEM, saying, ‘Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, OR HE IS RELIEVING HIMSELF, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.’ And they cried aloud and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them. And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice. No one answered; no one paid attention." 1 Kings 18:20-29

Some of the prophets even called people stupid and foolish!

"For my people are foolish; they know me not; they are stupid children; they have no understanding. They are ‘wise’—in doing evil! But how to do good they know not." Jeremiah 4:22

"They are both stupid and foolish; the instruction of idols is but wood! … Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols, for his images are false, and there is no breath in them." Jeremiah 10:8, 14

Continued...

Sam said...

Even though one of the teachers of the law informed the Lord that his comments was hurtful and insulting he still went ahead to rebuke them rather harshly.

The Apostle Paul called the Judaizers, or Jews who were preaching a false Gospel, dogs:

"Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—" Philippians 3:2-3

And Peter likened apostate and heretical Christians to animals, dogs and swine:

"But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish… They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: ‘A dog returns to its vomit,’ and, ‘A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.’" 2 Peter 2:12, 19-22

In this the apostles were imitating the language of the Lord Jesus:

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6

I guess Peter and Paul forgot that they weren't Jesus and therefore should not have used the same language that their Master did.

So Jem, please be consistent in how you interpret Scripture. Stop focusing only on those texts that agree with your method since this is not a God-honoring way of interpreting the Scriptures.

Sam said...

Moreover, the Lord Jesus himself and his apostles did not hesitate to insult those who deserved it:

"When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised. Then the Lord said to him, ‘Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you. Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it.’ One of the experts in the law answered him, ‘Teacher, when you say these things, YOU INSULT US ALSO.’ Jesus replied, ‘And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, God in his wisdom said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute." Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.’ When Jesus left there, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, waiting to catch him in something he might say." Luke 11:37-54

Continued...

jem said...

hello, sam; you are being very combative, argumentative, hostile, judgemental and critical...im not writing in this forum to challenge, debate, nor belittle anyone...... for this is not the way of our LORD.... i am merely suggesting that there are other ways to lead, to guide, to share the TRUTH...

How sad would it be.... that b/c of you or me (for that matter)someone doesnt come to know,accept believe in G-D/Jesus........DONT be the stumbling block,,,,that keeps "lost souls," from knowing the GOSPEL, b/c we will all be held accountable......and that may be the reason you/I arent rewarded with paradise.....

Final thought.....why do you minister????? -if it is not for the honor and glory of G-D; your wasting your time.........

You talk so authorative, and are quick to attack....but let me remind you of what scripture says:

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-D,,,"

If we claim to know G-D/Jesus and are saved....then lets give others that same opportunity to come to know the TRUTH....which by the way wont happen if we are pushing people away....its time to change your/(our) ways.....for the sake of "G-D"

"There is a way that seems right to a man,but its end is the way to death."

As i posted before....we will never have access to sharing the truth if we are, "Confrotational, combative, hostile, argumentative, arrogant, prideful, etc....all those human attributes that are displeasing to the LORD.

So it is with the Love for Our CREATOR...that i beg you to open you to open your mind.....and let the peace and love of the LORD enter you and change....... to win souls for the LORD..

Please forgive me if i have offended you......that is not my intention.....thank you

Best regards,


jem

Judith said...

So where were you, sir? Warren Ave., Sunday, 7:30 pm? Can you please exlain?

Zack_Tiang said...

jem...

True, none of us are claiming to be Jesus, and as Sam explains, we're called to be imitators of Christ.

Of course, we're not perfect at doing that... But there is someone who came very close [IMO], and even received *practically* the best compliment/praise from Jesus Christ Himself.

Luke 7:28 - [Jesus said,] "I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John [the Baptist]."

Now.. let's look at how John the Baptist ministered to the people for the glory of the Lord.

Luke 3:7 - [John] said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

Matthew 3:7 - But when [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

If you read more the next few verses, John continues with his 'combative, argumentative' statements... [Luke 3:7-9, Matthew 3:7-10]

So, "the greatest of those born of women" ministers in this way as well; unafraid to speak the truth and speak to please God rather than men.

And you can't deny this, cause Jesus Himself commended John the Baptist... with the greatest compliment/praise no less.


But I do want everyone to keep in mind.. Both John and Jesus kept these sort of 'assault' to those who knew God's law; i.e. Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.
These people knew the Torah, but are not pleasing God and were becoming legalistic.
In a near similar situation, the Muslims are too... claiming to uphold the Torah, Psalms, but yet acting contrary to God's word.

jem said...

Judith said...
So where were you, sir? Warren Ave., Sunday, 7:30 pm? Can you please exlain?

Hello, Madame, where you there?????
If not, then you formed your opinion based on what was revealed to you.........as did i......... we analyze the information and came up with conclusions based on the evidence provided......

When you're a juror on a trial.... you dont have to be present while a crime is be committed to judge guilty or not guilty..... your going to formulate your opinion based on the facts......whether you agree with me or not...those are the facts...

Clearly the evidence that has been provided by other brothes/sisters in faith clearly points to my posting.....

And this sister provided the missing evidence.....

Elaine said...
You've been weighed on the scales and found wanting Dan. 5:27
You guys need to wake up before the truth comes out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXvJJuxAFxY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNoJP0RWH5Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tFXEaLjGd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mck7tmRRsU


Zack_Tiang said...
But I do want everyone to keep in mind.. Both John and Jesus kept these sort of 'assault' to those who knew God's law; i.e. Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.
These people knew the Torah, but are not pleasing God and were becoming legalistic.
In a near similar situation, the Muslims are too... claiming to uphold the Torah, Psalms, but yet acting contrary to God's word.

I agree with you, but your making a big assumption, that muslims are claiming to uphold...... What if your wrong..... Should we at least give them the benefit of the doubt and be respectful when we talk, dialogue, and discuss with them.

It's a know fact with manners, etiquette, and respect any topic can be talked about......


best regards


jem

Zack_Tiang said...

jem said..

"I agree with you, but your making a big assumption, that muslims are claiming to uphold...... What if your wrong..... Should we at least give them the benefit of the doubt and be respectful when we talk, dialogue, and discuss with them."

Hahaha... I'm sure you're gonna get another 'beating' from most of everyone here with that statement.

Get to know what the Quran teaches, then come back and tell us how Muslims are not told to uphold the Torah, Psalms, etc. =)

The Berean Search said...

jem,

"hello, sam; you are being very combative, argumentative, hostile, judgemental and critical..."

I think you are being overly sensitive and reading all kinds of things into people's comments.

"It's a know fact with manners, etiquette, and respect any topic can be talked about......"

Here's the thing jem: everyone's definition of "manners", "etiquette", and "respect" are different. Also, everyone's culture has different standards of these things as well, and as I'm sure you know we have a lot of diversity in the United States, and as someone as concerned for the feelings of others and as concerned with decorum as you seem to be, you really shouldn't be forcing *your* opinion of these words onto others.

Please be more careful, thoughtful, and respectful of people's differences in the future jem.

Also jem, I feel the duty to inform you that you have reflected a completely unbiblical stance on Salvation in your previous comment:

"b/c we will all be held accountable......and that may be the reason you/I arent rewarded with paradise....."

Sorry jem, but no one gets "rewarded with paradise" based on our actions (this is what is known as "works-based-salvation" and it is a heresy). We are given access to Heaven by unmerited grace, based on nothing we have done or could ever do by our own ability. It's an unearned and free gift, and is given in God's Providence and completely out of any human ability to alter. It also happens to be the very heart and soul of the Gospel, so if you are bringing people the message reflected in your comment about how to attain Eternal Life then it really doesn't matter how polite you are being because you are bringing them a heretical lie that is incapable of Regenerating sinners or Saving anyone.

hugh watt said...

jem:

"It's a know fact with manners, etiquette, and respect any topic can be talked about."

But even then if people want to take offense they will.

"When you're a juror on a trial.... you dont have to be present while a crime is be committed to judge guilty or not guilty..... your going to formulate your opinion based on the facts......whether you agree with me or not...those are the facts."

Agreed. So why not wait for the confiscated video's before judging The 4?

"hello, brother david, i sense an evil spiteful spirit in you."

Where are your facts for this?

"hello, sam; you are being very combative, argumentative, hostile, judgemental and critical...im not writing in this forum to challenge, debate, nor belittle anyone...... for this is not the way of our LORD."

Who told you David has an "evil spiteful spirit?" You're not being any of the above to him?

"You talk so authorative, and are quick to attack....but let me remind you of what scripture says:"

The one about judging?

"And this sister provided the missing evidence."

She got the cameras! When did this happen?

"I agree with you, but your making a big assumption, that muslims are claiming to uphold...... What if your wrong..... Should we at least give them the benefit of the doubt and be respectful when we talk, dialogue, and discuss with them."

Will you give some refs' to prove your point here.

"As i posted before....we will never have access to sharing the truth if we are, "Confrotational, combative, hostile, argumentative, arrogant, prideful, etc....all those human attributes that are displeasing to the LORD."

Like judging people? Your none of the above to David/The 4?
I see you've not commented on the Scriptures Zack, Sam, etc posted; why is that? It seems your words must be give more credence than Scripture!

"and that may be the reason you/I arent rewarded with paradise."

Explain this.

jem said...

The Berean Search said...
Here's the thing jem: everyone's definition of "manners", "etiquette", and "respect" are different. Also, everyone's culture has different standards of these things as well.

There are, "Universal Truths/Rights," and respect is one of them...it doesn't matter what country, ethnic group, culture, and/or society one comes from -we all value, "Respect," and we all want it.

And as human beings when we feel someone is not giving us, "Respect," either by being: hostile, combative, argumentative, lacking in manners, condescending tone/speech, and/or arrogance.......we tend to be less receptive to hear what ever point is trying to be conveyed.... This is not my opinion but a fact according to: Sociologist, Psychologist, Human Behaviorist, and others that study the interactions/behavior of humans.

you really shouldn't be forcing *your* opinion of these words onto others.

Brother, take another gander at my post and you will agree -if your not biased where I merely suggested other ways (that all):

I'm not writing in this forum to challenge, debate, nor belittle anyone...... for this is not the way of our LORD.... i am merely suggesting that there are other ways to lead, to guide, to share the TRUTH...

Also jem, I feel the duty to inform you that you have reflected a completely unbiblical stance on Salvation in your previous comment:

Thank you, for sharing, but let me share this with you:

1)Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven..
2)You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles...
3)I tell you, on the day
of judgment people will give account for every careless
word they speak, for by your words you will be justified,and by your words you will be condemned.
4)He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing
seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give
eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Sorry jem, but no one gets "rewarded with paradise" based on our actions (this is what is known as "works-based-salvation" and it is a heresy).

Brother, I agree 100%, perhaps you misunderstood my point; hopefully the above references with references below will provide clarity:
*For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,,,,,
*Not of works, lest any man should boast. The salvation is not due to works of law, or to our own merit; hence there is no ground for boasting.
The seriousness of casting a stumbling block in one's way was made very clear by Jesus when He said "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in" (Mt. 23:13). The very ones who should have been helpful were guilty of making it more difficult for people to do what was right.

My brother in the Lord, my whole point is to minister for the Honor and Glory of our LORD, anything else is a waste of time......

We shouldn't push people(s) of other faiths away; by our own way, method, brand of ministering -rather expose and invite them to the, "TRUTH."

If I have offended you, that was never my intention..... I don't pretend to a be a scholar of religion.....and do appreciate your comments.....

Best regards,

jem

jem said...

hugh watt said...
But even then if people want to take offense they will.

If they take offense, then so be it..your job is simply to convey the message....that's it...just plant the seed....He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.

I mean no offense but the brand of ministering is designed to push people(s) of other faiths away....as the evidence shows:

1)people(s) were escorted of the premises by the police officers..why b/c people were turned off,,,,,,,
2)other Christians continue sharing and inviting to the LORD...
3)if the purpose was to share the GOSPEL; then it was a waste of time b/c that didn't occur.. if the purpose was mere propaganda then it was a success
4)it makes it harder to minister to people that have taste the bitterness of the methods employed by David & Nabeel (and other like them).

Where are your facts for this? Once again I mean no disrespect....but Hello.....have you not been watching the vids?????? the sarcasm, haughtiness, arrogance, etc... dont you get it!!!!! this method just pushes people away.......

Who told you David has an "evil spiteful spirit?" You're not being any of the above to him?

Hugh....G-D gave us a brain to reason with, to analyze, to formulate conclusions, to do critical thinking....... I'm not criticizing him (David)as a person; rather his methods. Once again if your not doing it for the GLORY & HONOR of G-D, your wasting your time.

The one about judging?
Did you know the number one complaint I hear from people when I'm spreading the Word:
"They think they (Christians) are better than us..(these are Christians from various denominations and other faiths)...it's in the approach -that is turning people away......
We are currently witnessing the decline of Christianity in America. When you examine all of the most recent poll numbers, the answer is inescapable. Christian churches in America are losing members rapidly, and this trend is especially dramatic among young Americans.

According to a stunning new survey by America's Research Group, 95 percent of 20 to 29 year old evangelicals attended church regularly during their elementary and middle school years. However, only 55 percent of them attended church regularly during high school, and only 11 percent of them were still regularly attending church when in college.

The reality is that young Americans are deserting the Church in America in droves.

jem said...

The Berean Search said...
Here's the thing jem: everyone's definition of "manners", "etiquette", and "respect" are different. Also, everyone's culture has different standards of these things as well.

There are, "Universal Truths/Rights," and respect is one of them...it doesn't matter what country, ethnic group, culture, and/or society one comes from -we all value, "Respect," and we all want it.

And as human beings when we feel someone is not giving us, "Respect," either by being: hostile, combative, argumentative, lacking in manners, condescending tone/speech, and/or arrogance.......we tend to be less receptive to hear what ever point is trying to be conveyed.... This is not my opinion but a fact according to: Sociologist, Psychologist, Human Behaviorist, and others that study the interactions/behavior of humans.

you really shouldn't be forcing *your* opinion of these words onto others.

Brother, take another gander at my post and you will agree -if your not biased where I merely suggested other ways (that all):

I'm not writing in this forum to challenge, debate, nor belittle anyone...... for this is not the way of our LORD.... i am merely suggesting that there are other ways to lead, to guide, to share the TRUTH...

Also jem, I feel the duty to inform you that you have reflected a completely unbiblical stance on Salvation in your previous comment:

Thank you, for sharing, but let me share this with you:

1)Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven..
2)You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles...
3)I tell you, on the day
of judgment people will give account for every careless
word they speak, for by your words you will be justified,and by your words you will be condemned.
4)He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing
seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give
eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Sorry jem, but no one gets "rewarded with paradise" based on our actions (this is what is known as "works-based-salvation" and it is a heresy).

Brother, I agree 100%, perhaps you misunderstood my point; hopefully the above references with references below will provide clarity:
*For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,,,,,
*Not of works, lest any man should boast. The salvation is not due to works of law, or to our own merit; hence there is no ground for boasting.
The seriousness of casting a stumbling block in one's way was made very clear by Jesus when He said "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in" (Mt. 23:13). The very ones who should have been helpful were guilty of making it more difficult for people to do what was right.

My brother in the Lord, my whole point is to minister for the Honor and Glory of our LORD, anything else is a waste of time......

We shouldn't push people(s) of other faiths away; by our own way, method, brand of ministering -rather expose and invite them to the, "TRUTH."

If I have offended you, that was never my intention..... I don't pretend to a be a scholar of religion.....and do appreciate your comments.....

jem said...

Sorry jem, but no one gets "rewarded with paradise" based on our actions (this is what is known as "works-based-salvation" and it is a heresy).

Brother, I agree 100%, perhaps you misunderstood my point; hopefully the above references with references below will provide clarity:
*For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,,,,,
*Not of works, lest any man should boast. The salvation is not due to works of law, or to our own merit; hence there is no ground for boasting.
The seriousness of casting a stumbling block in one's way was made very clear by Jesus when He said "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in" (Mt. 23:13). The very ones who should have been helpful were guilty of making it more difficult for people to do what was right.

My brother in the Lord, my whole point is to minister for the Honor and Glory of our LORD, anything else is a waste of time......

We shouldn't push people(s) of other faiths away; by our own way, method, brand of ministering -rather expose and invite them to the, "TRUTH."

If I have offended you, that was never my intention..... I don't pretend to a be a scholar of religion.....and do appreciate your comments.....

jem said...

According to a stunning new survey by America's Research Group, 95 percent of 20 to 29 year old evangelicals attended church regularly during their elementary and middle school years. However, only 55 percent of them attended church regularly during high school, and only 11 percent of them were still regularly attending church when in college.

The reality is that young Americans are deserting the Church in America in droves.

Hugh those stats; at the very minimum wake us all up....

She got the cameras! When did this happen?
Hugh, did I mention anything about cameras???? Isn't this tactic the same employed by the Pharisees on Jesus?

Will you give some refs' to prove your point here.
Although, I'm not a Scholar in Islamic Religion.... but the Muslims I talk to (in a nice way) quote the Quran..... I wont go further than that b/c I still researching and learning.....

Like judging people? Your none of the above to David/The 4?

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
If the methods employed is going to be a stumbling block.... then each and everyone of us must follow this text, "All scripture, is inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, ... and furthermore, to correct evil manners, and to establish good. ...

Explain this.
I tell you, on the day
of judgment people will give account for every careless
word they speak, for by your words you will be justified,and by your words you will be condemned.

I hope you have enough understanding to know that being condemned doesn't mean going to the "kingdom of Heaven...ie..paradise

You seem to take issue with my comments but as I stated, "I'm not writing in this forum to challenge, debate, nor belittle anyone...... for this is not the way of our LORD.... i am merely suggesting that there are other ways to lead, to guide, to share the TRUTH...

Hugh, forgive my bad manners and if i have offended you, please forgive me....


Best regards,


jem

jem said...

hugh watt said...
But even then if people want to take offense they will.

If they take offense, then so be it..your job is simply to convey the message....that's it...just plant the seed....He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.

I mean no offense but the brand of ministering is designed to push people(s) of other faiths away....as the evidence shows:

1)people(s) were escorted of the premises by the police officers..
2)other Christians continue sharing and inviting to the LORD.
3)if the purpose was to share the GOSPEL; then it was a waste of time.. if the purpose was to be propaganda then it was a success
4)it makes it harder to minister to people that have taste the bitterness of the methods employed by David & Nabeel (and other like them).

Where are your facts for this? Once again I mean no disrespect....but Hello.....have you not been watching the vids?????? the sarcasm, haughtiness, arrogance, etc... dont you get this method just pushes people away.......

Who told you David has an "evil spiteful spirit?" You're not being any of the above to him?

Hugh....G-D gain us a brain to reason with, to analyze, to formulate conclusions....... I'm not criticizing him rather his methods. Once again if your not doing for the GLORY & HONOR of G-D, your wasting your time.

The one about judging?
Did you know the number one complaint I hear from people when I'm spreading the Word:
"They think they (Christians) are better than us..these are Christians from various denominations and other faiths)...it the approach -that is turning people away......
We witnessing the decline of Christianity in America. When you examine all of the most recent poll numbers, the answer is inescapable. Christian churches in America are losing members rapidly, and this trend is especially dramatic among young Americans.

hugh watt said...

1-2 jem:

Do you know what "respect" means in a Sharia society against dhimmis? You say you don't know much about Islam; check up on it.
I noted how you've taken Scriptures out of context when trying to "provide clarity." Also, you never addressed the texts Zack, Sam etc put to you.

"I mean no offense but the brand of ministering is designed to push people(s)"

So they "designed to push people away!?" You were there when The 4 were planning a strategy beforehand?

"1)people(s) were escorted of the premises by the police officers..why b/c people were turned off,"

You must explain this one!

"3)if the purpose was to share the GOSPEL; then it was a waste of time b/c that didn't occur.. if the purpose was mere propaganda then it was a success"

The "if"s are confusing here. Was it, "designed to push people away?" or, "if the purpose was..?"

"4)it makes it harder to minister to people that have taste the bitterness of the methods employed by David & Nabeel (and other like them)."

I've seen Muslims deliberately set up where they know Christians will be preaching. They start something then accuse others of wrong actions. I've been in such a situation, i'll not go into it now.
For you to say people are bitter about the methods The 4 employed requires evidence; do you have it?

"Where are your facts for this? Once again I mean no disrespect....but Hello.....have you not been watching the vids?????? the sarcasm, haughtiness, arrogance, etc... dont you get it!!!!! this method just pushes people away."

When quoting, will you try to do so in the context in which it was posted: see below, and if you could answer the Q pls.

"hello, brother david, i sense an evil spiteful spirit in you."

Where are your facts for this?

"Hugh....G-D gave us a brain to reason with, to analyze, to formulate conclusions, to do critical thinking....... I'm not criticizing him (David)as a person;"
"hello, brother david, i sense an evil spiteful spirit in you."

Nope, no criticism there, "(as a person)."

I get complaints from people too, 99.9% from Muslims who say they want Sharia and Islam to rule. Their main problem is in Christianity saying it has the only truth for salvation. I ask them if Islam doesn't say the same for itself: Muslims go quiet at this Q!
I find, and I guess The 4 do too; that when people are shown a mirror image of themselves they'd rather turn on the mirror holder. When a camera is recording them I can see how this would touch certain nerves.
Your comment about "decline" is irrelevant. I watched a show once where a Muslim was angry at what some Christians were saying about Islam. These ex-Muslims gave refs', and encouraged honest seekers to check them. This guy did so out of anger and found it to be true. He was weeping as he told how he discovered Islam's lies. The manner of the presenters had nothing to do with his searching, its what they said that annoyed him! Now watch what The 4 did; they waited for Muslims to approach them!

hugh watt said...

2. "She got the cameras! When did this happen?
Hugh, did I mention anything about cameras???? Isn't this tactic the same employed by the Pharisees on Jesus?"


I mentioned cameras in regards to; "And this sister provided the missing evidence." Wouldn't you say this is the best evidence? Oh I forget, you can "sense an evil spirit" in people. Try using that in a court case! I'm sorry, didn't the Pharisees accuse Jesus of having a demon? Where was their evidence?

"Will you give some refs' to prove your point here. Although, I'm not a Scholar in Islamic Religion.... but the Muslims
I talk to (in a nice way) quote the Quran..... I wont go further than that b/c I still researching and learning."


I talk to them in a nice way too. I notice how often they lie about what Islam teaches. You should see the looks of embarrassment when they realise the "infidel" is not so stupid.

"Like judging people? Your none of the above to David/The 4? "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Did you think before using this text?

"If the methods employed is going to be a stumbling block.... then each and everyone of us must follow this text, "All scripture, is inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, ... and furthermore, to correct evil manners, and to establish good."

Which translation did you get this from? It has nothing to do with what The 4 were arrested for!

"Explain this.
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be
justified,and by your words you will be condemned."


It explains itself.

"You seem to take issue with my comments but as I stated, "I'm not writing in this forum to challenge, debate, nor belittle anyone...... for this is not the way of our LORD.... i am merely suggesting that there are other ways to lead, to guide, to share the TRUTH."

You "sense an evil spirit in (David)," based on? You don't see this as a bad thing to say to a Christian? You ever met him? I've been in situations where Muslims were stirring up trouble. Only when cameras were brought by other Christians did the provocations cease.
Notice the Mayor/Chief Hadad/
Muslims are doing the same as you. They're not using/waiting for evidence.

bpaolucci said...

So many of the comments have become a discussion of religion and manners which is so off topic.

The issue is the freedom/rights these 4 people had and how the police denied them their rights, arrested them and took their property.

May I suggest that when you get accused of anything by someone who is pro Islam/Sharia you merely write back telling them they have the right to disagree with you but you will not engage in what you believe to be nothing more than Muslim propaganda and then don't reply to anything else from the person.

hugh watt said...

bpaolucci:

Sounds nice. Problem is, people are focusing on personalities rather than evidence of what happened. This is a common tactic Satan uses. If people focused on Muhammad's 'evidence' for "prophethood" rather than his personality, we wouldn't be in this situation.

bpaolucci said...

I agree Hugh but to engage in the conversation they is to give them a win and an opportunity to post even more of their garbage. That's why I made the suggestions found in my last post.

You guys are being baited and biting - notice that the very polite rebuke from Stephen said that "... you are not presenting yourselves or Christianity in the best light ...." This is the tactic, it not only puts down the person as an individual but condemns Christianity as well.

You're dealing with people who are schooled in this kind of stuff. They know how to push your buttons. Don't get taken in.

hugh watt said...

bpaolucci:

"To win!" I'm not sure you've got the right understanding here. I certainly am not out "to win."
How many times do people post "garbage" here? Look at what's been said about the Dearborn incident alone. Who do think Stephen's "polite rebuke" was aimed at?
You seem to be assuming we're unaware of what's going on here. Most non-Muslims, around here are aware of what's going on; check the majority posts, their not all by Christians.

bpaolucci said...

Hugh, when I say you give them a win I'm talking about the fact that once they've got you engaged in the conversation they want to have, they've won. You are on the defensive, aren't you. If you use the strategy I've outlined, politely let the antagonist know that you will not engage in off topice discussions - you take the ammo away from them. You in effect silence them. I hope you get it because anything less is just going to lead to more and more arguments. The topic is, if I'm correct, the rights of the 4 Dearborn apostles being deprived - am I correct? Its not supposed to be a battle of what Christianity is or isn't or what Islam is or isn't. It can be about the fact that the police gave Muslims rights they are not entitled to when they arrested the 4, confiscated their property, stopped them from freely speaking wherever they chose to speak.

I know they are writing things that push your buttons and you want to defend our faith - but, that's really what they want - I wouldn't be surprised to learn that these posts become training session materials for Muslims.

Remember, Islam is a political ideology, it hides under the cover of religion.

If no one engaged these people by replying to their posts, they lose! And yes, you are in a battle of wits over religion, thus there is a winner and loser in this.

Haven't you noticed that they don't discuss the rightsof the 4 apostles? That's a discussion they don't want to have and don't want non Muslims to discuss, and the reason you are being steered off topic.

Best not to give them so much as one shot at having a dialogue.

hugh watt said...

bp:

I'm not on the defensive; nor are my buttons being pushed. I've been aware of this kind of tactic even before I was saved. What exactly you think i'm having to defend is the Q. Those who make statements without proof should explain themselves, so.
I don't see how your ref' to Stephen helps. "Battle of wits", yes; I'm no novice. When Muslims can't answer Q's, they do what we see on the Costa v Zawadi thread, check it.
Finally, I will dialog for a while it's why i'm here, it helps when I meet people.