Wednesday, July 14, 2010

Brief Update from Nabeel

Hello all--

Sorry we haven't been able to share more information with you recently. Things got pretty hectic pretty quick. I am currently in Florida with my Youth at Bible Camp, so I haven't had the time to post much since I've gotten here. But I have about 15 minutes right now, so here goes.

On Sunday night when we went to Dearborn to speak, my flight arrived late so we arrived at our spot about half an hour after anticipated. Some Christians were there waiting for us to encourage us, and they told us that 3 cop cars had been parked there and were waiting for us. They must have left, though, because I didn't see them. News Channel 7 was there (ABC affiliate, I believe) and they started asking us questions on the camera. When we stood on the street to let people come and talk to us, many people drove by and honked and waved, some people drove by and glared at us, but only one person stopped. Majed Moughni, a Muslim running for US Congress, stopped his car with his family waiting inside. He came up to us and greeted us very warmly, and then clearly stated for the camera (I'm paraphrasing, btw): "What the Mayor is doing to you all is very wrong. He does not speak for all the City of Dearborn. He should apologize to you, you have every right to do what you did." David and I were very surprised by Moughni's show of support - it seems to me that he has more to lose than to gain by siding with us, but he did so all the same. He has written a few notes on his Facebook account indicating his support for us as well.

The next day, Monday morning, we arrived at the courthouse early and there were many believers and media outlets there. Since there were, of course, multiple people on the dockett for the day, we got to see Judge Somers's style. He was exceedingly kind to virtually everyone who walked up. I mean, really - I've seen some judges in action before, but this guy was super nice in his demeanor and attitude, and his judgements were fair. But then we got up there, and it was like a light switch. He appeared antagonistic towards our attorney from the get-go, intimating that he was against many of his motions. (I'm no lawyer, nor am I even remotely familiar with legal processes, so forgive me if I speak incorrectly.) He even appeared to deny Rob's (our attorney) request for a bill of particulars, a detailed account of what exactly we were charged for. I thought that was extremely important and a necessity in this trial, but the judge acted as if it was unheard of. So, not looking good on that front. We'll see what happens.


Three cool things happened, though. Turns out Moughni is an attorney, so he was with Rob Muise in the courtroom the whole time, apparently just giving Rob his input and showing him around the court. So, at least on Monday, we had a Christian lawyer and a Muslim lawyer on our side :-) Praise God for that! Another cool thing was that Representative Tom McMillan from Michigan state legislature was present and expressed his support for us - praise the Lord! The last noteworthy thing that happened was that the City Prosecutor agreed to give us back our footage on Wednesday (today). The court didn't mandate it, so it seems easy to back out of the agreement if they should choose to, but they did say at court on Monday that they should be able to give it back this week. By the way, the express reason given by the City Prosecutor that we didn't have our cameras back on Monday was that the detective in charge of our case was on vacation. Go figure :-)

Court dates were set: August 3rd for a motion hearing (we're not going to have to be there for that) and August 30th for our pre-trial (which we will have to go to). Please pray for us!

Here is a short clip we put together (granted, in an extreme hurry) at ABN with a brief recap of what happened at the arraignment:



***UPDATE FROM DAVID*** I hear that our cameras have finally been returned to our lawyers. Since plane tickets are way too expensive, Paul and I are going to drive to Michigan tonight. We'll be able to examine the cameras in the morning to see if the footage has been tampered with. If we've got our footage, we should be able to start posting videos tomorrow.

***UPDATE FROM NABEEL*** Just got a call from David in Michigan. He's looking through the footage right now... looks like it's there, but he's checking to see if it's all there. We've got even better news to share with you, but we have to wait 'til we have it all together to post online :-) Keep coming back for updates!

68 comments:

Mike said...

Regardless of whether you guys are innocent or guilty of the charges against you (I can't make any judgments because I wasn't there and I have not seen the video in police custody), I hope this situation gets resolved as soon as possible. It sucks to be in limbo and in complete uncertainty about your future. I know you guys have families and this must be taking a toll on them.

Joe said...

The defense asked the judge to grant a motion for a bill of particulars and the judge was hesitant? OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE?
Disgusting and outrageous! Judge Somers and his split personality? “style”, and who is this prosecutor or DA? Is the Judge and the DA also a part of this Islamic assault on American Freedoms?

To the Judge and the DA: Do you understand the American Bill of Rights? Do you people recall your oaths? You now have joined the police chief with another assault on the Constitution, and the rights of those who were falsely accused. Remember you are subject to judicial review.

Judge!, let me refresh your memory, in case you may have forgotten, READ THE UNITED STATES BILL OF RIGHTS, Amendment 4 & 6 it clearly states, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons against unreasonable searches and seizures, and an accused has to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation.”

Muhammad, (in the quran, and the hadeeth), has declared this ongoing war against non muslims for 1400 some years. Sura 9:29 and numerous other quran verses that indoctrinates hate, imposes jizia and submission to islam has no place in AMERICA.

The Fat Man said...

Mike it looks like Nabeel, David, Nageen, and Paul are guilty.

Guilty of being Christians in Dearborn MI

Christie said...

Doesn't this judge know that his judgments are subject to appeal and review? Especially considering this is a constitutional issue (freedom of speech, press, and religion). This gets one step beyond the narrow confines of Dearborne and he has a big problem. Not to mention that if he curtails the freedoms for Christians in a Muslim area it sets a precedent for the curtailing of freedom Muslims in a Christian area. I am not saying it will be applied that way, but it could be. The bill of Rights is not a suggestion. We have these freedoms to protect us all.

Venchenza Settles said...

I'm waiting to see this footage. That's going to be the kicker. If they tampered with it, then they will only prove they are trying to cover up something. This judge sounds really shifty and sketchy, but to be honest, I'm not surprised. If they find you guilty, it only proves more and more that they persecute Christians and Sharia Law in Dearborn, MI is alive and at large.

minoria said...

I hope all turns out well.My feedback from the frontline.When you debate Muslims in a Muslim forum,in my experience,you find:

1.Muslims who support the terrorists.
2.That the other Muslims NEVER say anything...they don't condemn the terrorist-loving Muslims.

I am referring to RELIGIOUS MUSLIMS(the only ones who participate in the forum anyway).

SO?
The religious Muslims who FAIL to condemn Hamas,Hizbullah are:

1.Secretly in favor of the terrorists,but ashamed to say it.

2.Or against them but AFRAID of the disapproval of the other Muslims.

IT IS JUST VIA INTERNET

Ok,it is NOT in PERSON,nobody personally knows anybody else,so the FAILURE of those Muslims to condemn terrorism(by silence)is NOT because they will get hit/killed.

They are RELIGIOUS,they want to do Allah's will.If the REALLY believed the terrorists were ANTI-ISLAM,bad,evil,they would fear Allah more than other Muslims(via internet) and condemn the terrorist supporters.

Some of those "silent regarding terrorists" Muslims in the forum are very polite,they have never cursed me,when they write they write with ponderation,moderately,kindly,to me and other non-Muslims....but so what?
Their silence shows they are anti-human rights,you don't have to be superclever or sharp to see it.

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

He even appeared to deny Rob's (our attorney) request for a bill of particulars, a detailed account of what exactly we were charged for.

Does that mean he DID deny it, or didn't he?

Traeh said...

I don't know if the police arrested Acts17 because of any kowtowing to Muslims or Sharia. Maybe. But I think it's also possible that they arrested Acts17 simply because it was the most convenient way to deal with the crowd of Muslims who were or might become threatening.

But most convenient ≠ legal.

The Fat Man said...

Finally the truth will prevail. Have a safe trip

Unknown said...

Hi David and Nabeel, I'm totally supporting what u guys are doing. Regarding about the camera, If they give you back by deleting the videos, you still have a chance to retrieve the video back, it's called 'recovery'. Let's hope they don't throw out the memory card.

http://www.squidoo.com/formattedsdcard

James said...

I have viewed the video defense of your actions. I am a Christian who has street witnessed in 4 countries spending weeks on the street. I also worked full time in Christian ministry for 10 years. I have produced TV broadcasts exposing the Islam religion.

From your videos, you apparently took no opportunity to share Christ. Wasn't that your goal?
The reason you were detained was because you were handing out printed literature in an area that it was not allowed (while you video taped it). What were the police supposed to do?

It seems like you were looking to cause a controversy; or afraid of one, more than having a desire to share the Gospel. Controversy only gives the unsaved an excuse not to believe. Why didn't you just try to talk to people as the law allows?

Why not attend an event like this with people that only have a hidden pocket recorder (or none)? Put the camera person blocks away with a good zoom and out of sight. Why try to draw attention to yourselves? What is your hearts intention, witness or cause controversy? All I see is a controversy that could have been avoided.

I commend you cause, but question you motive and methods.

I have lots of experience if you would like help or advice- or just a comment.

Matthew Bourne said...

Nabeel, so glad you got your footage back!! I'm praying it hasn't been erased or changed, and that it will accurately support what happened.

Matthew

Lydia McGrew said...

(Continued)

Just how deep the crony-ism with the Muslims goes remains to be seen. It is particularly suspicious that, according to eyewitness testimony, things were _calm_ and _winding down_ when the Dearborn 4 were arrested and also that the police had mysteriously _walked away_ for a few minutes before returning to arrest them. I'm afraid that to me that really does look like some form of collusion or signal-giving was going on, as though the police had been told to walk away (so that people could try to make up lies about what they were doing while the police weren't there) and then were told to come back and arrest them.

Lydia McGrew said...

Traeh, that can't be the reason. If all they were worried about was a crowd of Muslims they felt they could not control, they could have said to David, Nabeel, etc., "Hey, guys, we're getting a little worried about you, because these people here seem to be getting a bit rowdy. We're going to have to escort you out of here for your own safety." And they would definitely have gone.

It would still have been disturbing, as it always is when the police do that rather than controlling the crowd, but sometimes it is a judgement call as to whether there are enough cops to control the crowd, whether it's worth the risk of violence to try to do that, and so forth. There have been plenty of cases of speakers and so forth who have had to be escorted out of their scheduled talks by security for their own protection, and while one may understandably criticize even that, it is _far_ better than summarily _arresting_ the speaker.

That's what makes this stink to high heaven: They never warned them, they never told them that the crowd was getting restless or dangerous and that they would have to leave, nothing like that. They just walked up out of the blue, after having watched the whole thing previously and seen that things seemed to be going okay, took the cameras, and arrested them and are now continuing to press charges against them. This is crazy!

So obviously there is something more here going on--I would bet power hunger by Police Chief Haddad and anger at David and Nabeel for not being good little dhimmis and renting a booth just to talk to people. Anger partly because their insistence on exercising their First Amendment rights to walk around freely and talk to people at the festival requires that they receive police protection, and also anger at the embarrassment to the city and to the Muslim population and dhimmi police of the city caused by the video that was published last year.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

James--

You seem to have missed some details. We shared the Gospel on Friday the 18th with plenty of Muslims, before we were arrested. On the 20th, David was handing out the Gospel of John outside the festival, and no one had explained to us that this wasn't allowed.

So, sharing the Gospel with Muslims before getting arrested, handing out the Gospel outside the festival before getting detained. You're saying we didn't take the opportunity to share the Gospel?

-Nabeel

Traeh said...

Lydia McGrew,
You are perhaps right that the police were not thinking merely that "the Muslim crowd is looking a little dangerous, so let's arrest Acts17, get them out of here, and get rid of the problem." If they were worried about Muslim violence, Lydia, you say that the police could simply have told Acts17, "you need to leave because we are concerned about your safety."

But could the police have said that and been sure of getting the desired result? If the police had said "You Acts17 folks may not attend this festival, you are in danger here," what if Acts17 had replied, "no, we'll stay, we don't mind the danger." Would the police then have the right to force Acts17 out of the festival, without actually arresting them? What if Acts17 had replied, "officer, you say that some of the crowd around us is dangerous. So why should Acts17 have to leave? Ask the dangerous persons in the crowd to leave." But the police are not well-equipped to adjudicate such things. They just look at crowd situations kinetically, and seek the shortest path to maintenance of order. And the most obvious, though wrong solution, was to arrest a few guys at the center of the crowd.

If the police had asked Acts17 to leave for safety reasons, the police would also have to wonder if Acts17 might leave briefly, and then return. From that point of view, also, the police might have thought arresting Acts17 was the easiest way to solve the problem and keep it solved all day, so that they wouldn't have a security headache to massage all day.

So I think it's possible the police arrested Acts17 because they saw it as the most convenient way to prevent possible violence and disorder by Muslims at the festival.

But another possibility is that the police thought more like this: "These guys at the center of this crowd of rowdy Muslims are leading a conversation, and the crowd is getting threatening and angry. Therefore the problem must be the guys at the center leading the conversation. Let's arrest them for disturbing the peace."

In this case, too, the officers wouldn't necessarily be guilty of kowtowing to Muslims or to Sharia. They might just have misunderstood who was responsible for the behavior of the Muslim crowd. And it would be a reasonable misunderstanding: one sees a few guys who are the center of attention, and seem to be leading a conversation with a crowd. Those in the center, apparently leading the conversation, seem to be responsible for what is happening in the crowd. That is a mistaken impression, but an understandable one.

Elaine said...

Nabeel, It looks like you missed the point alltogether. How do you expect to be an Apostle of love and good news to people that you depicted in the worst imaginable image. Even if you were preaching, how can they trust you this year, especially you have four people around carrying cameras. You depicted them in a bad image before, and most likely they were thinking that's what is you intention this year as well. How about the Mayor and the Chief who have received tons of hate email because of you. It's time to stop and listen to someone like James. There are millions like him who have been saying the same thing. It's for your own sake. You are destroying your own ministry. Stop in the name of Christ. Stop, spreading misleading information. Start being a men of integrity. Ask good counsel from godly people. I hate to see good talented and young Christians wasting their lives in the Showbizz type of ministry

Lydia McGrew said...

We're all waiting with bated breath to hear about the footage and whether it's there, whether it has been tampered with, etc.

Tom said...

Finally, I think I understand what's been bugging me about David and Paul having to drive to Dearborn to retrieve their illegally confiscated equipment: The equipment was taken illegally. The Police Chief of Dearborn should pay for secured shipping and to certify that the equipment arrives safely into David's possession. It's insane to me that David has to go retrieve what was wrongly taken. This is just another instance of trying to impose dhimmitude onto Christians who are citizens of the USA. BTW, if the Police Chief of Dearborn is a Muslim, can he legally take the oath of citizenship or the oath of office in the USA? A Muslim's loyalty is to defend Islam and sharia law - NOT to the Constitution of the USA and to the legal Citizens of our great nation. This whole situation - since the arrest is wrong, wrong, WRONG.

Nazam said...

James White vs Shabir Ally

Is Jesus Prophesied In The Old Testament? (London Debate, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4auy06yow8

jem said...

James said...
I have viewed the video defense of your actions.

From your videos, you apparently took no opportunity to share Christ.

Wasn't that your goal?
The reason you were detained was because you were handing out printed literature in an area that it was not allowed (while you video taped it). What were the police supposed to do?

It seems like you were looking to cause a controversy; or afraid of one, more than having a desire to share the Gospel.

Controversy only gives the unsaved an excuse not to believe. Why didn't you just try to talk to people as the law allows?

Why not attend an event like this with people that only have a hidden pocket recorder (or none)?

Put the camera person blocks away with a good zoom and out of sight. Why try to draw attention to yourselves?

What is your hearts intention, witness or cause controversy? All I see is a controversy that could have been avoided.

I agree 100%, no doubt comments made by James right on the money...
and this is all I been trying to convey.... is your not doing it for the honor and glory of G-D; your wasting your time....

Thanks, James, appreciate your comments.......

jem said...

Elaine said...
Nabeel, It looks like you missed the point alltogether. How do you expect to be an Apostle of love and good news to people that you depicted in the worst imaginable image.

Elaine, good observation. I just hope this constructive criticism isn't distorted.

Even if you were preaching, how can they trust you this year, especially you have four people around carrying cameras. You depicted them in a bad image before, and most likely they were thinking that's what is you intention this year as well.

Once again, this brand of ministry pushes people(s) of other faiths away...


How about the Mayor and the Chief who have received tons of hate email because of you. It's time to stop and listen to someone like James. There are millions like him who have been saying the same thing. It's for your own sake. You are destroying your own ministry.

100% true, but I've noticed that in this forum.... to use Scripture to:
teach, correct, rebuke, etc....... is viewed with contempt and hostility.... how unfortunate....

Stop in the name of Christ. Stop, spreading misleading information. Start being a men of integrity. Ask good counsel from godly people. I hate to see good talented and young Christians wasting their lives in the Showbizz type of ministry

Thank you Elaine, for your efforts...I pray that we all heed your words and apply them to our daily lives...

Best regards,


jem

Lydia McGrew said...

Traeh, you're grasping at straws. The police were not kow-towing to Muslims because _maybe_ Nabeel and David would not have agreed to leave if the police considered they were in danger? So they couldn't have, you know, asked? This is ridiculous. Or _maybe_ they were the ones doing something wrong to upset the crowd, so the police weren't kow-towing to Muslims by just _assuming_ this and arresting them rather than, you know, going with evidence of what they were actually doing? This is also ridiculous. Remember that this is the same police department who didn't arrest the threateners last year after the Muslim security police, on camera, drove Nabeel and David out of the festival with actual threats of physical violence. Hmmm. Double standard, anybody? Stop ignoring the evidence before your own eyes.

Peter Pike said...

Jem, James and Elaine make such good little dhimmis. They seem to forget that the Apostles were stoned, flogged, and imprisoned for preaching the Gospel. Seems to me that if your ministry never provokes that sort of response (in places where such a response is legally allowed--which apparently now includes a certain section of Michigan), whatever you're preaching cannot be the same thing as the Gospel.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Are there some Muslims in sheep skin in here?

James said...

Nabeel Qureshi said..

"You seem to have missed some details. We shared the Gospel on Friday the 18th with plenty of Muslims, before we were arrested. On the 20th, David was handing out the Gospel of John outside the festival, and no one had explained to us that this wasn't allowed."

(This will likely frustrate you. That is not my goal. My goal
is to see you succeed in making new Muslim converts, that will
challenge you in ways you don't like.)

You are absolutely correct. I did miss the detail of anyone sharing
the Gospel. I don't know all the details, I was not there. All I
know is what you have chosen to make public. In what I have viewed, it did not include your reference.

MY POINT
It's obvious the Mayor & Police are boxed in by the people who have
put them in power. You have to approach it with that understanding
and walk a very fine line. In the world not of it.

What would have happened If you would have contacted the police before the event? You would have known the rules (as ridicules as they are). You could have planed to work within the rules, without video cameras. No Muslim is going to want to be seen giving favor to the Gospel of Christ on video. You guys have to know that already. Don't openly record them, would you want to be recorded if you were in their
place? You then would have had a chance to share Christ in your own
terms. Instead all we have is more Muslims and an arrest.

If you would have followed the stupid law, you would not be afraid of the cops, as you are in the video, and you would be free to accomplish something eternal. It is likely that all you have now is court costs and controversy that will end up alienating (because of fear) other
Christians from witnessing to Muslims and the Muslims will use it to show you in a bad light.

I hope I'm very wrong, but by the presentation on the web looks like
your group wants to show controversy more than witness. Are you focused on the right thing? Walking in love, gentle as doves, wise as serpents... or is it he same type of spirit the Muslims operate in? Strife and Confusion. Controversy will get you a lot of page hits, to what end?

Is it time you change the focus of your group? Would Video
testimonies of Muslims who have come to Christ be much more
encouraging to all?

Boldness is best used with temperance.

Hiwot said...

It seems you are right, Hogan.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

James--

I appreciate your heart, brother - but you have to trust me when I say we're coming from the same general perspective... the difference between us is that I was there and went through the steps, and you didn't.

I did call the police, in fact I called the chief of police. I told him we were coming, I asked him what the rules were, and he was not clear about rules. I told him we didn't want to cause any disturbance while we were there, and he seemed to even resent the fact that I was calling. He then said "As long as you act within the color of the law, you're welcome here" or something to that effect.

We keep cameras on us because we get falsely accused of things by security, by police, and by people who are against our approach (i.e. direct dialogue vs. service). The cameras show our innocence. Just think about it - these people are willing to falsely accuse us when we DO have cameras to exonerate us... imagine how much more we'd have to defend ourselves if we DIDNT have exculpatory evidence! It would be impossible.

Finally, we followed all laws, we followed all festival rules, and we were still put in jail. The only thing we didn't do is lie down and play dead. If you're advocating that, then I would humbly submit to you to read how the Apostles conducted themselves in the Book of Acts. Try Acts 17 for starters, or you can read the whole book.

Finally, if you want to question the efficacy of direct dialogue when it comes to witnessing to Muslims, don't forget: 2 of the 4 of us who were arrested were Muslims who came to know Christ because of exactly that style of witnessing.

In Christ,
-Nabeel

jem said...

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...
Are there some Muslims in sheep skin in here?

I respect your work.....but don't
understand why do you level false accusations to those whom use Scripture to: correct, rebuke, etc.......it is viewed (by most in this forum) with contempt and hostility....this is very unfortunate....

When we begin to falsely accuse each other it only creates more division.......making easier to be conquered.....

I leave you with this verse:
"And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

Best regards,


jem

jem said...

James said..

I hope I'm very wrong, but by the presentation on the web looks like
your group wants to show controversy more than witness. Are you focused on the right thing? Walking in love, gentle as doves, wise as serpents...

Very unfortunate, James, but your assumption is correct....The Scripture says, (Titus 3:10-11)
"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

Strife and Confusion. Controversy will get you a lot of page hits, to what end?

Do it for the Honor and Glory of
G-D.....anything else is a waste of time..

Is it time you change the focus of your group? Would Video
testimonies of Muslims who have come to Christ be much more
encouraging to all?

Right on, James,,,,,,

I really do appreciate your comments....and find it encouraging to know that there are others that don't agree with the tactics used by David, Nabeel, and others....

This in no way ....is meant as a personal attack rather constructive criticism....

Best regards,

jem

Ryan S said...

James

I too have been involved in outreach ministry,not only one to one personal street evanglism but also open air preaching, while I have not been outside of the USA in this capacity I have perhaps as many or more years as you do in this.
And you should know if you do in fact preach the faithful Gospel, you will get a large range of responces, I have had people shake my hand and thank me, to outright Hostlity involving curse words and threats against my life. I have had several occasions of being falsely accused of things I did not do or say.
Now you realize its a spirtual battle I hope, that Satan is alive and kicking and will oppose the Gospel, He is called a Liar and accuser of the Brethern,he will incite anger and all kinds of things from those enslaved to him.
But YOU should have known this if you really have infact been involved in this type of Ministry for any length of time!
So then how can you cast judgement upon ACTS17 when you where not involved? or personally witnessed the events? isnt that the sin of PRESUMPTION?
Brother you seem to take a few facts out of context and construct some conspericy out of it rolling into some contorted story!
Untill the facts are on the table, isnt it better to pray first and wait?

The Fat Man said...

Oh the wait, the dreaded wait.

Tom said...

David, Nabeel, Paul, Negeen...

You didn't go into this to be heroes, I know. I think I know your hearts and I think you all have hearts of love for all lost people.

But all of this shows me that the Only Living God is still raising up prophetic voices among us: He still loves us, in SPITE of us.

I sincerely believe that for Muslim and non-Muslim people to live, Islam must die. Just as sin must die for us to be transformed into Life, so must Islam be crucified with Christ Jesus.

I'm just trying to say to you all, "THANK YOU!!" for driving those nails into the wretchedness of Islam. May there be thousands more like you - unashamed and unafraid to do the work of Christ among us - and driving out that which has no business in the Temple of the Only Living God.

Islam has no business anywhere on Planet Earth. The whole of Planet Earth (even all of creation!) has been claimed by the Blood of the Crucified One.

Islam must die so that people can live.

KAFIR AND PROUD! MAY JESUS CHRIST BE PRAISED!!

Van Grungy said...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/15/students-ordered-stop-praying-outside-supreme-court-building/#content

Looks like the Sharia bug is catching...

Zack_Tiang said...

Traeh,
Even if what you say is true.. it is the officer's obligation to ASK the significant subject of the danger...
If the subject refuses, the officer is supposed to then negotiate and stress the urgency/danger of the matter/situation.
And if the subject still refuses, the officer should then access the situation and judge how feasible is it to keep the subject safe in hostile areas.. or even arrest whoever is being hostile...
And even if all else fails... the officer should at most forcefully escort the subject out of the area... NOT arrest the subject and place criminal charges on him/her!

Even if by some farfetched possibility that the police were indeed doing as you reason... why did they not inform Nabeel, David, others of their intent... and ACTUALLY put them in jail and confiscate their properties (illegally)?
If indeed your reason is correct, then these actions are overly unnecessary, since their intent was to get them out of the danger/hostile crowd.

Sorry, I'm not being mocking or insultive and I apologize if my choice of words give that impression.
But I truly find your reasoning too farfetched to suit the situation that has happened.


jem's comment about James' comment..

Jem, it seems you don't know what actually happened (their arrest and them distributing the gospel) if you're agreeing to James' comment, since as Nabeel explained to him before this comment of mine.
Or you're purposely dismissing Nabeel's/David's personal testimonies of what they did and what happened.

Zack_Tiang said...

Elaine, Jem,

Let me point you to some verses...

John 1:5 - The light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not (or some translate, overcome)

John 3:19-21 - This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

People in sin will fear the truth and many will retaliate badly/violently to whoever brings the truth.
Just look at Jesus versus the Pharisees... or John the Baptist...
What about Paul and all the other apostles and disciples who were stoned, imprisoned, attacked for preaching the gospel or speaking the truth? Was it because they were being hostile and confrontational and not loving and kind and gentle?
Heck NO!

The problem does not lie on the preachers of the truth, but the recipients of the truth!
They're the ones convicted by the truth and they don't like the feeling! So they lie and conspire against the 'dangerous' preachers, much like the Pharisees conspired against Christ when He exposed them for who they really are; hypocrites and ungodly.

I highly doubt you can reconcile Jesus' action, let alone John's as well as Paul and the apostles and disciples in Acts.

So, if you're gonna dismiss Acts17 for such reasons, then you dismiss Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul of Tarsus and the apostles/disciples of Acts.
Otherwise... change your perspectives and actually learn more about how evangelism was done back in those early days and how the people reacted to them.

I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm just being truthful and correcting you with Scripture, as you so gladly quote 2 Timothy 3:16.

Zack_Tiang said...

And if people are so worried about cameras, that means they have something to hide and are afraid of the truth or be exposed of/to the truth. It is not the fault of Nabeel, David, others for having cameras at a PUBLIC event in PUBLIC area, supported by the US constitution.
If they do not want to be in the camera shot (maybe for privacy reasons), they need only ask them to point the camera elsewhere... or not have them appear within the camera.
Not kick them out of a PUBLIC event on PUBLIC property or even arrest them and confiscate their properties.

If these people believe what they have is the truth, they need not be afraid to be shown/described/depicted as otherwise.
And if we hold the truth, we must be daring to speak the truth openly, despite what other people believe.
As you proclaim over and over, we are to please not men... but God and glorify Him and the Truth.


"It's time to stop and listen to someone like James."

You're relying on the opinions of someone who didn't/doesn't know the whole situation / sequence of events?
I worry for your integrity and wisdom.

Zack_Tiang said...

Elaine and Jem,

"How do you expect to be an Apostle of love and good news to people that you depicted in the worst imaginable image."

John the Baptist called the Pharisees and Sadducees "brood of vipers" [Matthew 3:7, Luke 3:7]
and Jesus gave John the Baptist the best compliment in whole of human history; "I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John [the Baptist]." (Luke 7:28)

You gonna dismiss John the Baptist now for 'depicting the people in the worst imaginable image'?

and jem likes quoting Matthew 12:36 about "every man shall give an account for every careless word spoken"..
Let's look just a couple of verses before.. Just to remind this is Jesus speaking.
Matthew 12:34 - "You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

Looks like Jesus is also 'depicting the people in the worst imaginable image'.. you gonna dismiss Him now? Unless you wanna be inconsistent with your views/opinions.

Zack_Tiang said...

jem said..
"When we begin to falsely accuse each other it only creates more division.......making easier to be conquered....."

Insteresting thing to say, jem...
So can you please stop doing that?
If I'm not mistaken, you were the one that started the 'false accusation'; saying David has an evil spirit, and equating Acts17's intentions and motivations to false and ungodly ones.
These guys are some of the most godly men I know of. And they're putting forward God's truth... out in the open.
Not hiding or covering it for the pleasure/comfort of those who needs to know the truth/light.


"The Scripture says, (Titus 3:10-11)
"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." "

It seems this applies to you more than any of us, jem. We were very fine and dandy until you showed up along with a few others and started accusing these guys of not glorifying God.
These guys were not and did not cause any form of division among the Christians at Dearborn... while you're causing a division right here in a Christian blog and amongst Christians.


"This in no way ....is meant as a personal attack rather constructive criticism...."

yes, James' comments are.. yours wasn't. e.g. "David, I sense an evil spirit in you"


Please, jem.. you're the one that needs correcting.. Not David or any of the Acts 17 bunch involved in this situation.

Change your own ways of giving 'constructive' criticism, and we can talk more peacefully and less 'divisively'.

Zack_Tiang said...

Allow me to quote a situation that happened in the Scripture that is VERY similar to what happened to Nabeel, David, Paul and Negeen.

Acts 6:8-15

Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.

Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God."
So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."

All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.


Just an example of how godly men can easily be falsely accused of doing wrong things and how easily people can be convinced so.... even when they didn't do anything wrong.
Just cause Christians are arrested for (supposedly) doing something wrong, and even though other Christians may believe/testify they did... doesn't immediately mean it's true.

Be fair and look at the testimonies and evidences (from ALL sides) before placing your judgment on the matter. Or, at the very least, do what some have done and admit 'I do not know the whole situation or what happened, but this is my opinion'.
If you had stated so, I'm sure your opinions (whatever it may be) will be readily accepted and considered.

Suzanne said...

God enCOURAGE you moment by moment and fill you with wisdom for his glory. We love you guys and are praying regularly for you. I respect and appreciate your gentleness and patient explanations. I know personally that you love Muslims and desire to see them forgiven and in eternity. Thank you for your commitment to this and for not sacrificing the fight to preserve the freedom to share this good news and to demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God (2Cor. 10:4). I pray you will never grow weary in doing both these goods.

Confident Christianity said...

For brothers and sisters, Jem, Elaine, James:

I appreciate when Christians are willing to dialog with other Christians for the sake of admonishing one another and to the end of growing each other in the knowledge of God. So, I thank you for your willingness to write criticisms and put your name to it. Both of these guys will take constructive criticisms for the purpose of growing in their walk with God and in their knowledge of the Lord. However, you should expect that if they have theological and philosophical disagreements with you, that they would make those known according to their own studying of the Scriptures.

Perhaps you are correct, but perhaps you are wrong. A couple of problematic statements have been utilized. I hope this does not come across as strident. My area is apologetics, so I analyze arguments for the glory of truth which is from God.

Hyperbole is being utilized to make a stronger case, such as "There are millions like him who have been saying the same thing." How could you know this? Couldn’t I say that there are millions of people who support what these guys do? But unless I have some substantial evidence or polling or something, I’m merely speculating. When people need to exaggerate claims to make their case sound stronger, I am skeptical.

“Stop, spreading misleading information. Start being a men of integrity. Ask good counsel from godly people.”

They are not spreading misleading information. They are spreading truth. The truth is from God. Falsehood is from the Evil one. That’s an important distinction. Having integrity means firm adherence to a set of moral values. I would say that these guys are firmly holding to a set of moral values. As far as asking counsel from godly people: How would you know whether or not they are doing this? I’ve seen them ask Christian mentors for advice. This is just an assumption that you are making. Is it based in a presupposition that all Christians should look and act a certain way if they are to be considered righteous?

Confident Christianity said...

Continued...

“I hate to see good talented and young Christians wasting their lives in the Showbiz[] type of ministry.”

When believers publicly attack the work and motives of fellow believers, what kind of unification in the Spirit are those believers demonstrating in accordance with Jesus' words in John 17:20-21? "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." There is a witness to the world about Jesus as God’s son that comes from the way believers treat one another and their oneness in Christ. Also, from the relatively small amount of study I have done on Islamic philosophy of religion, I believe a public display of such divisiveness amongst Christians is a very poor testimony to the Muslim community about the power and love and reality of the Christian God…no matter what form of evangelism methods you use. This is due to a difference in philosophy.

“You depicted them in a bad image before...” These guys did not purpose to go out and depict Muslims in a bad way. Their ministry of debating would testify against this statement. These guys spend enormous amounts of time preparing to intellectually engage with the Muslims on their texts and teachings. They upload the videos of the debates to the internet, without commentary, for the viewing of the world. In doing so, they have given Islamic scholarship respect through dialog. The above statement is misinformed, because it makes the reader think their purpose was to depict Muslims in a bad way when in fact, they have proven otherwise through a life example.

Confident Christianity said...

Continued...

The motive for last year was to get a response to the pamphlet that they thought contained false or misleading information, and post the response online. They only approached the people at the Isalm Q&A booth; not just any Muslim passing by. The security guards at the festival, who were the problem, depicted themselves in a bad way. Since the security guards were allowed to hit our cameras, threaten us, use vulgar language, and the police did not detain or arrest them, the guys interpreted that as containing some Sharia law attitude. It wasn’t civil law informing the security guards and the police reaction, so what was it? When did the peaceful dissenter become defined as the hateful aggressor in need of removal and punishment? That is exchanging the truth for a lie and is not from the Lord God, giver of all truth; whether or not it appears as loving or nice.

“Controversy only gives the unsaved an excuse not to believe.” Brother, I believe you have the best intentions here. However, you have created a false dichotomy. Paul states in Romans that we are all without excuse. The unsaved do not believe, according to the New Testament, because of a hardened heart. Jesus rebukes the disciples for this attitude. Paul also discusses this problem in passages such as Romans 1, but expands the ramifications out to all mankind. If this controversy puts these guys in a position to speak the love of Christ on a national platform, as I’ve already seen Paul R. do in an interview and heard Nabeel do in an interview, then the message that Jesus is God’s Son is getting out to more people. Praise God for turning a situation some meant for evil into an opportunity for good!

Confident Christianity said...

Continued...

I just don't see from a comprehensive view of the New Testament, including the Acts of the Apostles, the book of James, and the words of Christ in Matthew 23 (and the 1 Peter passage that some have used in opposition to these guys) that another Christian can denounce their ministry. You would have to know motive. It has been suggested that their motive is fame by the showbiz comment. That's a pretty serious accusation, and very judgmental for not knowing them personally. In the Acts 8, Simon the sorcerer wants the great power to heal for the gain of wealth. This is why he is rebuked: his motive is financial gain. Are you making an argument that these men's motives are for gaining wealth?

In Isaiah 55:11, God's word does not return void. In Galatians 1, Paul claims that a person should be condemned for preaching another gospel than that of Christ. If these guys are getting out the message, if their message is not another Gospel, if they are not seeking fortunes, what are they doing wrong? I’m only getting that you disagree with the manner in which things happened at this particular event. But if the manner is the only problem, then do you also have a problem with Jesus calling men “whitewashed tombs” and saying those men make others twice a member of hell as they themselves already are in Matthew 23? Does he just not love them? Is Jesus giving people an excuse to not believe? What about in John 8:44 when Jesus tells the teachers that they are a child of their father, the devil? Jesus wasn’t always like this, sometimes his words were—what we would call today—nice or kind. See, David and Nabeel are not doing anything near as harsh as Jesus’ rebukes of false teaching. Plus, they, too, have more to their ministry, in which they are speaking words of grace and mercy to the public. They are perhaps making some people uncomfortable, but then they ease their discomfort through dialogue and conveying their purpose out of love for the Lord and for the Lord’s creation.

Confident Christianity said...

These are two men who have given their lives over to the advancement of the truth of God and the tearing down of false doctrines. Please make a clearer distinction in your accusations between differences in personalities versus differences in actual Gospel message and truth. These are not the same thing. One is a preference; the other is the difference between truth and falsehood. So I’m looking for something like, “this is not how I would do ministry, but I’m guessing they reach people I do not and I reach people they do not.”

Confident Christianity said...

Continued...

In Isaiah 55:11, God's word does not return void. In Galatians 1, Paul claims that a person should be condemned for preaching another gospel than that of Christ. If these guys are getting out the message, if their message is not another Gospel, if they are not seeking fortunes, what are they doing wrong? I’m only getting that you disagree with the manner in which things happened at this particular event. But if the manner is the only problem, then do you also have a problem with Jesus calling men “whitewashed tombs” and saying those men make others twice a member of hell as they themselves already are in Matthew 23? Does he just not love them? Is Jesus giving people an excuse to not believe? What about in John 8:44 when Jesus tells the teachers that they are a child of their father, the devil? Jesus wasn’t always like this, sometimes his words were—what we would call today—nice or kind. See, David and Nabeel are not doing anything near as harsh as Jesus’ rebukes of false teaching. Plus, they, too, have more to their ministry, in which they are speaking words of grace and mercy to the public. They are perhaps making some people uncomfortable, but then they ease their discomfort through dialogue and conveying their purpose out of love for the Lord and for the Lord’s creation.

Confident Christianity said...

Continued...

I think Paul’s words to the church in Galatia are fitting for those who would attack their ministry in self-righteousness veiled with false humility:

Gal 1:10 “Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.”

Notice, I used “those who would attack their ministry”: For those of you who are still questioning and offering advice without using hyperbole, ad hominem, and false assumptions, I know your thoughts are welcome. I argue with these two and have them support their views, just like they do with me. That is part of how we grow in knowledge of God. The purpose is for the building up and maturing of the body of Christ (Eph 4).

Thank you for your time and suffering through my lengthy amount of posts.

MJ

minoria said...

Hello Mary Jo:

Thank you for your insight and answers to Jem,Elaine,and James,but I think I speak for the other non-Muslims who participate here.From the comments written by Elaine,Jem and James,their strange comments,reactions,words,it is obvious they are Muslims pretending to be Christian in order to smear Acts17.

Their way of thinking,their argumentation is NOT that of a NON-MUSLIM.

hugh watt said...

Not only have jem and others not responded to texts taken out of context, but they seem to have all disappeared at the same time.

jem said...

minoria said...

From the comments written by Elaine,Jem and James,their strange comments,reactions,words,it is obvious they are Muslims pretending to be Christian in order to smear Acts17.

Their way of thinking,their argumentation is NOT that of a NON-MUSLIM.

Oh really......you must not have read my post thoroughly...which explains your hostility......I will re-post my words

"When we begin to falsely accuse each other it only creates more division.......making easier to be conquered.....

"And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

"I've noticed that in this forum.... to use Scripture to: teach, correct, rebuke, etc....... is viewed with "contempt and hostility.... how unfortunate...."

"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

MINORIA, if you had read the above text.. you would have know why I stopped posting.... but your comments obligate me...to post..once again.

From the beginning, I wrote, "I'm not writing in this forum to challenge, debate, nor belittle anyone...... for this is not the way of our LORD....


I am merely suggesting that there are other ways to lead, to guide, to share the TRUTH...

My comments I fear have been distorted...and met with contempt, hostility, anger, and hate, I apologize....but,,,the truth hurts.
I ask G-D to guide us all...to the truth.... and diminish your (and others like you) anomosity..

Jesus himself said, Go and preach the Gospel.....and if they persecute you...(meaning wont listen, abuse you) leave.......

I pray one day you will see with eyes that see and hear with ears that hear....

Best regards,


jem

ps....this is for you too Hugh..
I'm still here...but I find it more and more difficult to post....when the truth falls on deaf ears....

Zack_Tiang said...

Jem said...
"From the beginning, I wrote, "I'm not writing in this forum to challenge, debate, nor belittle anyone...... for this is not the way of our LORD....

I am merely suggesting that there are other ways to lead, to guide, to share the TRUTH..."

And you are entitled to your point of view.. as are we to ours. This is not a 'unquestionable' Christian issue; unlike Christ's divinity, resurrection, saving grace, etc.

But do not come in here and start being 'holier than thou' on us and even accusing David of having 'evil spirit' or others of having ill intents when 'confronting' the Muslims.

If you haven't realized yet, there are all sorts of people of different personalities/cultures. Some will be convinced through loving words... and there's also others that can only be convinced by 'hellfire and brimstone' preaching; for example, Asian Chinese.

And PLEASE, explain the verses I quoted you with regards to 'this isn't the way of the Lord'? John the Baptist and even Jesus Himself calling the people/Pharisees 'Brood of vipers'??

PLEASE check out the latest post that has the videos finally released, showing how Nabeel was 'confronting' the Muslims.. Was He even the slightest bit 'confrontational' or 'depicting them in the most despicable image'??

"I've noticed that in this forum.... to use Scripture to: teach, correct, rebuke, etc....... is viewed with "contempt and hostility.... how unfortunate...."

No, that Scripture you quoted was never 'viewed with hostility', contrary to your view. It is just that we are able to turn that verse right back at you and quote Scripture to show you that you are mistaken with your insertions.
You're just refusing to discuss or even acknowledge them.

Zack_Tiang said...

Jem said...
"From the beginning, I wrote, "I'm not writing in this forum to challenge, debate, nor belittle anyone...... for this is not the way of our LORD....

I am merely suggesting that there are other ways to lead, to guide, to share the TRUTH..."

And you are entitled to your point of view.. as are we to ours. This is not a 'unquestionable' Christian issue; unlike Christ's divinity, resurrection, saving grace, etc.

But do not come in here and start being 'holier than thou' on us and even accusing David of having 'evil spirit' or others of having ill intents when 'confronting' the Muslims.

If you haven't realized yet, there are all sorts of people of different personalities/cultures. Some will be convinced through loving words... and there's also others that can only be convinced by 'hellfire and brimstone' preaching; for example, Asian Chinese.

And PLEASE, explain the verses I quoted you with regards to 'this isn't the way of the Lord'? John the Baptist and even Jesus Himself calling the people/Pharisees 'Brood of vipers'??

PLEASE check out the latest post that has the videos finally released, showing how Nabeel was 'confronting' the Muslims.. Was He even the slightest bit 'confrontational' or 'depicting them in the most despicable image'??

"I've noticed that in this forum.... to use Scripture to: teach, correct, rebuke, etc....... is viewed with "contempt and hostility.... how unfortunate...."

No, that Scripture you quoted was never 'viewed with hostility', contrary to your view. It is just that we are able to turn that verse right back at you and quote Scripture to show you that you are mistaken with your insertions.
You're just refusing to discuss or even acknowledge them.


"My comments I fear have been distorted...and met with contempt, hostility, anger, and hate, I apologize....but,,,the truth hurts."

Yes... but it happens that we're not the one hurting from the truth here... or the 'truth' you're trying to proclaim to us.
And it still seems to us that we're holding the truth of the events while you're just speculating and making judgment based on incomplete information regarding what happened when the Acts17 team were arrested.

"Jesus himself said, Go and preach the Gospel.....and if they persecute you...(meaning wont listen, abuse you) leave......."

Where... in the book containing God's wonderful Word... does Jesus set a general rule 'if they persecute you... leave', in any similar manner or meaning?
I have a feeling I know where you are referring to, but I'll leave it to you to clarify.

"when the truth falls on deaf ears...."

Yes... remember... The Word of God is like a double edged sword. It can hurt your opponents/enemies... as well as yourself. Please heed your own statements and reflect on your own words/actions and maybe you'll come to realize how much what you're saying suits you too.. if not better.


If my tone seems confrontational, that is because I'm starting to get somewhat frustrated with your 'holier than thou' attitude and your refusal to admit your own blatant and obvious mistakes and wrong perspectives.
I apologize to everyone for my temporal rudeness or lack of politeness or 'love'.

Zack_Tiang said...

jem said...
"My comments I fear have been distorted...and met with contempt, hostility, anger, and hate, I apologize....but,,,the truth hurts."

Yes... but it happens that we're not the one hurting from the truth here... or the 'truth' you're trying to proclaim to us.
And it still seems to us that we're holding the truth of the events while you're just speculating and making judgment based on incomplete information regarding what happened when the Acts17 team were arrested.

"Jesus himself said, Go and preach the Gospel.....and if they persecute you...(meaning wont listen, abuse you) leave......."

Where... in the book containing the wonderful Word of God... does Jesus set a general rule for all Christians 'if they persecute you... leave', in any similar manner or meaning?
I have a feeling I know where you are referring to, but I'll leave it to you to clarify.

"but I find it more and more difficult to post...when the truth falls on deaf ears...."

Yes... remember... The Word of God is like a double edged sword. It can hurt your opponents/enemies... as well as yourself. Please heed your own statements and reflect on your own words/actions and maybe you'll come to realize how much what you're saying suits you too.. if not better.


If my tone seems confrontational, that is because I'm starting to get somewhat frustrated with your 'holier than thou' attitude and your refusal to admit your own blatant and obvious mistakes and wrong perspectives.
I apologize to everyone for my temporal rudeness or lack of politeness or 'love'.

Confident Christianity said...

"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

This is from Titus 3:10-11.

But back up to v.9 "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless."

The context of this passage is division amongst the church brethren concerning the law and fruitless arguments on genealogies. To apply this passage at all to this situation is probably inappropriate exegesis. David and Nabeel's actions would not fit this particular admonishment because they are not intentionally stirring up division in the church with false teachings about God or the law. Nor have they gone around purposefully to argue with the body of Christ or with Christian leadership through endless (or aimless) fruitless questioning. Their actions are related to people outside the body of Christ and to a secular governing body. Here's some support from commentaries:

Here's the Tyndale Bible Commentary on this passage:

A person who causes “divisions” (3:10; “factious man,” nasb; “heretic,” kjv) is one who argues foolishly without accurate Scriptural support.

The Bible Exposition Commentary:
Problem People (Titus 3:9–11)

"We wish we did not have “problem people” in our churches; but wherever there are people, there can be problems. In this case, Paul warned Titus to avoid people who like to argue about the unimportant things of the faith."
Warren W. Wiersbe

And from the "A Commentary, Critical and Explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments":

In regard to verse 9, "Not so much direct heresy as yet is here referred to, as profitless discussions about genealogies of aeons, etc … which ultimately led to Gnosticism.

Strivings about the law = about the authority of the “commandments of men,” which they sought to confirm by the law (Tit 1:14; see on 1Ti 1:7), and about the mystical meaning of the various parts of the law in connection with the “genealogies.”

Verse 10. In this passage the word Greek word for heretic is used. "Heresy,” originally meant a division resulting from individual self-will; the individual doing and teaching what he chose, independent of the teaching and practice of the Church. In course of time it came to mean definitely “heresy” in the modern sense; and in the later Epistles it has almost assumed this meaning. The heretics of Crete, when Titus was there, were in doctrine followers of their own self-willed “questions” reprobated in Tit 3:9, and immoral in practice.

Unless you are claiming that they teach heresies (false doctrine), then this passage is not applicable to the current situation. However, James 4:11-12 does apply here:

"Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"

The Tyndale Bible Commentary:

"James 4:11–12 relates to the tongue analogy but more specifically to taking over authority that belongs to God alone. James exhorted believers to avoid slandering their brothers. He condemned a censorious, hypocritical judgment (cf. Matt. 7:1–5). He was not rejecting the appropriateness of judging others in proper contexts (cf. Matt. 18:15–18). His very letter is an example of proper, humble, and loving evaluations."

Thanks,
MJ

Tom said...

Hey, Zack!

No apology required - at least not to THIS rescued believer in the Crucified one! LOL! It's great to get to read your posts and I expect that your comments would be deleted if you really needed to apologize. To me, what you're writing is sound teaching and - as the young people say - "Iron sharpens Iron". So, allow at least me to learn. (Hey, even an old geezer like myself can grow in understanding...) If others don't choose to learn... well, what can be said for them?

To me, all of this is historic. The Body Of Christ awakening... Maybe we'll see a great revival take place but we have MUCH work to do! Zack, THANK YOU for being a part of God's reconciliation! Thousands - no, MILLIONS of Muslims must be rescued from Islam. Many of them can become mighty teachers in Christ Jesus - much like Nabeel and Paul and Negeen. You're a part of that rescue, Zack! (Me to - just a little). Yes, be courteous and be led only by the Holy Spirit but BE NOT AFRAID! We need you!

KAFIR AND PROUD! MAY JESUS CHRIST BE PRAISED!!

hugh watt said...

jem said:

"ps....this is for you too Hugh..
I'm still here...but I find it more and more difficult to post....when the truth falls on deaf ears."

Not only have jem and others not responded to texts taken out of context, but they seem to have all disappeared at the same time.
Oh but look, jem's back; but still no comment on the videos! So, no answering texts out of context: and no response to the footage. You should say something about these, otherwise you'll look as though you're a Muslim. Well, actually you come across like that already.

minoria said...

Hello Jem:
Sorry to have hurt your feelings in any way,by accusing you and the others of pretense.
It is because some Muslims actually have the habit of pretending to be non-Muslims.
And I had the impression,again sorry for any hurting of your feelings.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Jem wrote:

I respect your work.....but don't
understand why do you level false accusations to those whom use Scripture to: correct, rebuke, etc.......it is viewed (by most in this forum) with contempt and hostility....this is very unfortunate....

When we begin to falsely accuse each other it only creates more division.......making easier to be conquered.....

I leave you with this verse:
"And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

Elijah replies:

Did I touch a nerve here, are you a wolf in sheep skin? You were the only one who reacted to it.

What exact division have I created and between whom, and how exactly do you apply your scripture verses in this context?

I am referring to an incident in which Christian brothers and sisters were illigally treated for excercising their reight to share their religious views.

If you have a problem with their action and with me supporting my Christian brothers and sisters against such injustice, then frankly you are either very twisted in your mind or you are a Muslim playing games.

If you were a Christian you would realise that taking a stand for justice and what is right particuarly in support of the body of Christ is unity in Christ: hence you are the one who causes division; but I have a strong feeling that you are not a Christian.

jem said...

Elijah replies:

Did I touch a nerve here, are you a wolf in sheep skin? You were the only one who reacted to it.

Has anyone noticed,, the way people whom present...the teachings of Jesus Christ, love, mercy, patience is always met with hostility......and the worse yet people whom pretend to have scholarly knowledge resort to name calling and labeling......

Brother, I will not stoop to your level and instead let the LORD judge....

Your antics and demeanor towards your fellow brethren in faith, should make you feel ashamed...but somehow doubt that. I will keep you in my prayers......and ask G-D to change your heart...."for what is in the heart the tounge spews out....

Use your knowdlege to win souls for the LORD.....

Best regards,


jem

Zack_Tiang said...

jem said...

"and the worse yet people whom pretend to have scholarly knowledge resort to name calling and labeling......"

John the Baptist called the Pharisees and Sadducees "brood of vipers" [Matthew 3:7, Luke 3:7]
and Jesus gave John the Baptist the best compliment in whole of human history; "I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John [the Baptist]." (Luke 7:28)

[Jesus said] "You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." (Matthew 12:34)

Yes, jem.. people who pretends to have scholarly knowledge resort to name calling and labeling.

"Has anyone noticed,, the way people whom present...the teachings of Jesus Christ, love, mercy, patience is always met with hostility.."

Couldn't you have just as easily apply that to Nabeel and the rest of the Acts17 team that were caught in the Dearborn incident?
And in all honesty, you failed to do any of that you claim to have done.

And no, you weren't met with hostility.. not from me at least. And yet you have never made any indication of acknowledging the scriptural quotes I spoke in response to your comments.
So, we're not the ones not listening here.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Jem wrote:

Has anyone noticed,, the way people whom present...the teachings of Jesus Christ, love, mercy, patience is always met with hostility......and the worse yet people whom pretend to have scholarly knowledge resort to name calling and labeling......

Hogan wrote:

This is exactly what makes me doubt your Christianity. You write like a Muslim, you refrain from all the issues and questions I posted and simply portray me as someone resorting to name calling; I expounded clearly upon my reason for doubting your faith in Christianity, and you have not even resorted to reply in the light of those matters.

And why do you write God as G-d? I have only found Jews and Muslims do that.

Jem wrote:

Brother, I will not stoop to your level and instead let the LORD judge....

Elijah replies:

Exactly what level? What exactly are you on about? What is your problem? We are dealing with Christians arrested illigally for winning souls, did you watch the last video of Nabeel's preaching and their arrest, did you see harasment from their side, what based upon the video you saw is your problem if you are really a Christian, can you please expound upon that?

Elijah replies:

Your antics and demeanor towards your fellow brethren in faith, should make you feel ashamed...but somehow doubt that. I will keep you in my prayers......and ask G-D to change your heart...."for what is in the heart the tounge spews out....

Hogan replies:

You are not a fellow brethren, a brother does not stick a sword in the back of brethren in times of persecution (you and other supposed Christians on here do that, that is suspicious). Let me say it again, you are not a brethren, and do not bother praying for me. Pray for yourself and repent, if you are really a Christian.

Jem wrote:

Use your knowdlege to win souls for the LORD.....

Hogan replies:

I do win souls, but there is also a time for exposing injustice and danger, and that is the focus here.

Now if you are really a Christian and you have watched the latest video and expect that an honest apology from you is expected to your American brothers.

Odo said...

Jem,

I ask you to PLEASE read this article:

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4072

Haecceitas said...

Nabeel, what's the "better news" that you mentioned in your update?

JesusTheOnlyWay said...

Yes Nabeel just what is this news are you able to share it yet or have you already done so? God bless!!!

James said...

TO: Elaine, jem, Peter Pike, Ryan S, Minoria, Confident Christianity, Zack_Tiang & anyone else reading my comments.

I sent the following directly to Nabeel by e-mail about my change of heart & mind.


I viewed the video of you teaching the crowd in Dearborn. I get it
now. I regret my previous posts, I became ill-informed & was very
wrong.

I am hoping that your understanding of how I became ill-informed will help you to be more effective, so I am taking the time to explain in detail, not to excuse myself; I was wrong "."

How it happened.
The first video I viewed from your group was a YouTube clip "On
YouTube", not your blog. It did not show ministry or provide any
details about ministry. I was curious at that point and found two
more videos on your blog that also had no ministry in them, just
explaining controversy . So after watching about 15 minuets of video
I had not seen what you guys are really all about,. All I had seen
was controversy. As a result, at that point I reacted inappropriately. I'm not one to bash others, but the content touched a deep nerve. I would think others may do the same and never say anything, just move on.

Helpful Ideas, I hope!
Make a short, action filled
clip(s) of some of your best ministry, include your contact info., 15-30 seconds. Put it at the end of every clip you produce on this issue to replace your current ending. Not only will it make sure people get a balanced overview of you, but it may also be viewed by the unsaved, you will be ministering in every video you post. You could even append it to things you have already posted.

You may already have planned all this but... You have some real God
given talent within yourself & group. You also have some real brain power. I hope you continue to document & video everything. When this chapter come to a close, make a video that tells the entire Dearborn story from day one. Make it class A and script every second of audio & video. Don't feel pressured to post it fast, quality really matters. Make obvious links next to all your other videos so the whole story is always available.

Finally I want to make sure you know that I misread you guys and I was wrong. I hope that any stress I may have caused is put to rest and replaced with joy. You, and your group are in my prayers.

Hope this somehow turns bad to good.

James

James said...

TO: Elaine, jem, Peter Pike, Ryan S, Minoria, Confident Christianity, Zack_Tiang & anyone else reading my comments.

I sent the following directly to Nabeel by e-mail about my change of heart & mind.


I viewed the video of you teaching the crowd in Dearborn. I get it
now. I regret my previous posts, I became ill-informed & was very
wrong.

I am hoping that your understanding of how I became ill-informed will help you to be more effective, so I am taking the time to explain in detail, not to excuse myself; I was wrong "."

How it happened.
The first video I viewed from your group was a YouTube clip "On
YouTube", not your blog. It did not show ministry or provide any
details about ministry. I was curious at that point and found two
more videos on your blog that also had no ministry in them, just
explaining controversy . So after watching about 15 minuets of video
I had not seen what you guys are really all about,. All I had seen
was controversy. As a result, at that point I reacted inappropriately. I'm not one to bash others, but the content touched a deep nerve. I would think others may do the same and never say anything, just move on.

Helpful Ideas, I hope!
Make a short, action filled
clip(s) of some of your best ministry, include your contact info., 15-30 seconds. Put it at the end of every clip you produce on this issue to replace your current ending. Not only will it make sure people get a balanced overview of you, but it may also be viewed by the unsaved, you will be ministering in every video you post. You could even append it to things you have already posted.

You may already have planned all this but... You have some real God
given talent within yourself & group. You also have some real brain power. I hope you continue to document & video everything. When this chapter come to a close, make a video that tells the entire Dearborn story from day one. Make it class A and script every second of audio & video. Don't feel pressured to post it fast, quality really matters. Make obvious links next to all your other videos so the whole story is always available.

Finally I want to make sure you know that I misread you guys and I was wrong. I hope that any stress I may have caused is put to rest and replaced with joy. You, and your group are in my prayers.

Hope this somehow turns bad to good.

James

Zack_Tiang said...

James,

Now that's a constructive feedback/criticism (although a positive one, with a bit of negative).

jem, I meant this to you, especially.


It's interesting to note how jem seemed to have completely disappeared. Maybe jem is still visiting but isn't posting... or is really just occupied with other business at the moment.

Same goes for Elaine.