Monday, June 21, 2010

Dearborn Police: Defending Islam against the Constitution

*****Click here for a complete summary of our experience in Dearborn.*****

Muslims are having a field day making baseless and unsubstantiated claims against Nabeel and me. However, the truth remains: Police and security in Dearborn are actively oppressing Christians.

I went back to the festival on Sunday (after being arrested for doing absolutely nothing wrong on Friday). Here's what I saw.



***UPDATE*** Some people have contacted me asking what law could possibly justify stopping people from handing out a book on a public street. I have no idea. However, anyone who's interested can contact the Dearborn Police Department at 313.943.2240.

106 comments:

hugh watt said...

You guys have gone international. Could you send this to The 700 Club? You were on today!

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

I am shaken, what's wrong in America?

Chris said...

Soon to come to Murfreesboro, TN. What do we do?

Tom said...

"...You better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone" for the laws, they are unequal and unjustly enforced... on behalf of a very powerful and corrupting minority...

Wait! I missed the part where Fox News bravely filmed what was going on, right? BBC was there, right? PBS? VOA? A radio station? One or more of the news papers? Shoppers Guide? Mother Jones? Mother Earth News? Huff Po? Little Green Footballs? LOL!
It sure looked like George Orwell's nightmare to me. David, I think you're very effectively sounding the alarm but, is anybody besides us Church Mice listening? I hope this gets at least as many hits as "Of Mosques and Men"

KAFIR AND PROUD! MAY JESUS CHRIST BE PRAISED!

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

You guys need to get this stuff to a major news network pronto!

Eric said...

How is this possible? Where is the mainstream media outrage? WTF????

Seriously, this video needs to be seen and discussed across the country. Get it on Fox, Get it on PBS, get it to the ACLU.

It's past time to constantly give the benefit of every doubt to every intolerant Islamic religious bigot!

Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are the fundamental foundations of our society. The first amendment matters most!

Lydia McGrew said...

So: When is the First Amendment lawsuit going to be filed on this? This is a clear violation of the First Amendment. I believe that you will be remiss if you do not do so. Remember--if you simply tell everyone what is going on but don't actually use the legal avenues available to try to correct it, this will simply be a victory for the Muslims and a _confirmation_ that sharia law is instated and cannot/will not be challenged.

By the way--wasn't there a hearing today on the arrests last Friday (for "breathing while Christian" or something)? Update? Has your footage been released by police from that? Do you have any confirmation from them that they haven't just erased it?

minoria said...

Hey.David,I didn't know you knew Antonio.He has some videos on youtube.He is a friend of Amana Sheikh,who has some videos there also.She knows about you guys.Astonishing.

mirele said...

Just a question--what occurred in the "three minutes" that was edited out of the video? If nothing happened in that three minutes, you shouldn't have a problem with putting it up on YouTube, right? It doesn't need any fancy production values, just label it "Unedited Video" and upload it.

Of course, it might not be that you did anything yesterday to deserve being asked to leave, but that this was additional fallout from Friday night's incident. The fact that you were told to get five blocks away sounds like you were under some sort of police order to stay a certain distance away because of the original incident. Is that the case?

Also, can you get, scan and post Friday's police incident report?

And, finally, can you explain why you and your group have had such bad experiences when it doesn't appear that Josh McDowell's group (or any of the other Christians at the festival) had issues? Even pastor George Saieg got the Sixth Circuit to overturn a federal order keeping him at a festival booth.

Matlin said...

Can we take any actions against those police men?? David did you get your camera back?

Odo said...

HeeHee! I wonder what the cops will say when their grandbabies are reciting the shahada during homeroom on Michigan soil – I know Ronald wouldn't mind!

Sharia enters stage left. I'll take a dose of that dangerous freedom now please.

May God protect you all.

Van Grungy said...

http://durotrigan.blogspot.com/2010/06/muslims-against-crusades-edl-one-law.html
=====

One look across the pond and you will see where this is headed. No doubt the loony left MSM will side against natural Britons who are being invaded by sharia warriors.
======================
Remember, nobody becomes a Cop for the honour anymore. High pay, perks and pensions are the only reason to have the dishonour of ignoring the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The Dearborn Police have obviously dropped any pretense of having honour. It's just a job for them. There will be no reprimands for abuse of authority. There will be no charges against the people responsible for filing a false police report. The Cops are showing their fear of islam.

Hang your heads in shame Dearborn PD. You have demonstrated that American Laws are less important than submitting to islamic dictates. When you all retire with your full pensions have fun not living in Dearborn.

Just goes to show, you just can't trust the police, ever. I'll bet the muslims in Dearborn feel the same way. Don't worry though, massive muslim communities always shut out their host police and emergency services when they finally declare sharia is in effect. Can't have non-fully-sharia-compliant services in islamic zones.

Remember this point in history. When the inevitable conflict comes, muslims will claim Dearborn is an internment camp that America forced them into.

Carla said...

This is madness. My heart aches for whats happening in my country.

Coptic Christian said...

This video needs to go on national TV in USA. I wonder what would happen if I do the same here in Canada. I think it will be even worse.

IslamSINS said...

Allah has always feared the Cross of Christ and by extension, Muslims fear having His words around. I'm more disgusted with the Dearborn police than the Muslims. We know Muslims break out in hives around the word of God, but what's up with the cowardly Dearborn police department? If I may offer a link, here are sundry phone numbers to the defenders of evil, Dearborn's best. Honest. It's the best Dearborn has. Call the chief and tell him how proud he makes you feel to be an American.
http://www.ci.dearborn.mi.us/police/index.shtml

mkvine said...

LOOOL wow these cops are COWARDS. Do they really need like 10 cops to tell you guys not to distribute pamphlets??? They should be out there fighting gangsters and crime, not giving law abiding citizens a hard time for a little pamphlet....

Tim Dunn said...
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Tim said...

CBN aired a short news story on the event but little was said considered this involved Christian's suprisingly.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2010/June/Four-Evangelists-Arrested-at-Mich-Arab-Festival/

The Fat Man said...

This is insane. I was writing out a response to Osama Abdullah on how with in the festival grounds handing out literature may be forbidden and grounds for removal.

And if the offender refuse to leave then they could get arrested for trespassing. However standing outside the event and handing out lititure, caring signs and speaking to people was perficlty accaptable.

I'm typing this out siting case law and i pop into the blog and see this. Clearly standing outside the festival grounds. Amazing

David, Nabeel, Nageen and Paul you guys have been targeted.

kate said...

What a surprise!
And what did Jesus say 2,ooo years ago?
"You will be persecuted for my sake."
My God and my Lord Jesus, if it will cost me my life to save one soul from eternal hell, then let it be and grant me the strength to do so. the gift of eternal life is better than a minute of persecution.
May you Lord, protect, those who serve you so that many will hear your salvation before you call them home. Thank you for your son Jesus and the gift of eternal life. Thank you, Lord, may all the praise and Glory be to you!!

timdunn said...
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Steve Miller said...

I read the account in the Detroit News. Keep trusting in the Lord. I was arrested and jailed for giving out gospel tracts at the Detroit Art fair in 2006. ADF (Alliance Defense Fund) defended me. My ADF lawyer wrote a motion to quash the case consisting of 40 court precedents that proved that the Detroit policeman had violated our Constitution. The judge threw the case out of court. My full account, including the Lawyer's motion, which you are welcome to use, is on my website at http://www.voiceinwilderness.info/id47.htm

OffendedMan said...

Like I said after yesterday's post, it's obvious that the PD in Dearborn are bought and paid for. I notice that they sent about a dozen cops to "talk" to three not-very-threatening people handing out pamphlets. How brave the Dearborn PD are. And how interesting that they don't want any of their bullsh*t antics on camera!

timdunn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Taryn said...

This nation is being judged by God. It's hitting so close to home for me. I'm just and hour and a half away from you guys in Lansing. Our rights are being taken away from us and the police are helping. Pretty soon it will be illegal to preach the Gospel.

You guys have been catching a lot of flack, but you have 100% percent of my support. I believe you are doing the right thing by bringing this to everyone's attention. Keep on exposing what is happening in our country. America has got to wake up. May you perservere in Jesus name!

mirele said...

David, Nabeel, etc., I've come to the conclusion, based on information I've read in the Temporary Restraining Order in the George Saieg appeal that the police were well within their rights to tell you to leave on Sunday.

What you didn't bother to tell anyone was that the Festival had a restriction in place for a "buffer zone" around the Festival's perimeter. (I'm assuming it was the five blocks mentioned in your video.) I also learned that the only person allowed to leaflet within the "buffer zone" was George Saieg, because he'd gotten the TRO. Everyone else, including you, had to either stay at the booths that EVERYONE (Christian, Muslim, Insurance Agent, etc.) had to work from at the Festival or work outside of the 5 block zone. (Again, it's worth pointing out that Josh McDowell's group had no problem working with that restriction.)

It's entirely likely that this "buffer zone" restriction will be gone next year if, as is expected, Saieg is successful in his case. But you'll still not be able to leaflet within the festival based on the rules as they're currently set up.

I could go on and on (and, in fact, went into a rather long discussion on my blog, based on this new information) but I really think you all can clarify the situation by posting the raw video of your Friday encounter prior to your arrests as well as the reports of the arresting officers. I'm sure the information will eventually come out.

I guess the thing that really peeves me about this whole incident is how you continually make yourselves into victims of "Dearbornistan" when, in point of fact, everyone else had to follow the rules. And the one guy who didn't have to follow the rules, he had a court's approval. This whole train of thought is amazing to me; we all have to live together in this country but you don't think the rules apply to you. *shakes head*

Coptic Christian said...

I would like any one to Google Dearborn, Michigan on Google images.

well, I did this just cause I didn't know the city and never been there, and I was quit surprised with what I saw.

If I didnt know that it is in USA, I would think it is place in Middle East

http://www.google.ca/images?q=Dearborn,%20Michigan&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

ned said...

Acts 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
KJV
American police is trying to bring peace by stopping the message of Ultimate Peace. This is unconstitutional and against the very human rights which muslims are exploiting to bring terror and voilence to America.
I would say americans have still not learnt the lesson and do not know how much more they want to suffer before reacting.
Thanks God again that you are safe: Be safe.
Ned

The Berean Search said...

This is unacceptable! The authority of the police does not supersede the Constitution. You all need to lawyer up with a major law firm that specializes in these types of cases and file a suite.

TR said...

I think that going there was a mistake since you couldn't bring the bible or pamphlets. Some of these people are obviously not peaceful, and someone may get hurt. If you want to spread the Word, then do it outside of the event where you have the bible or something that they can take with them.

But, walking in there like that seemed like you were the ones starting trouble. It wasn't innocent. You guys had a video to show how hostile they can be. I think the entrapment was the other way around, sorry to say.

I am a Christian, and I believe you can do more by not instigating a fight. Did you think these people were going to listen to you guys? Or did you want to prove something else? If so, then the reasoning in my opinion was wrong.

I don't by any means want to imply that standing up for Jesus is wrong just because the people around you don't believe in Him. What I am implying is that, you need to make sure that you are not doing things for the wrong reasons in the name of the Lord.

What if a group of Muslims went to a Christian rally with a shirt that had an anti-Christian message on it or whatever. And, on top of that, they were holding a camera filming people, and stirring up the security guards? Christians would immediately be offended, and no one would listen. In fact, they would complain more than likely to cops or security to have them removed.

So, I think that the reasoning behind this wasn't right in my opinion.

Vimal Anand said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Vimal Anand said...

Dear Brothers,
It is indeed heart-wrenching to watch Christians deprived of their rights and the American constitution denigrated. Above all the police against the gospel of Christ?? Sounds like China!! We stand with you in prayer.
Vimal,
Chennai,
India

The Berean Search said...

mirele,

It was Islamic affiliated legal groups that instated all these unconstitutional and anti-American rules around this festival in the first place (and I am confident this statement will be vindicated when George wins his lawsuit). The whole point of these rules is to prevent and limit evangelism to Muslims. It's great that Josh McDowell had a booth at the festival, but here in America the marketplace of ideas and freedom of speech is not restricted to booths. There are Islamic groups and organizations that have an agenda for the future of Dearborn and Michigan, and having the Muslims there question Islam or convert is absolutely not part of that plan.

I for one am glad that Acts17 is courageous enough to videotape what is going in Dearborn so the rest of us can see it, and I sincerely hope they will use the fullest means of our legal system to prevent anyone else facing this treatment (and it seems a legal victory in the courts is about the only way people with your erroneous point of view will eat crow and be silenced).

The Berean Search said...

"I think that going there was a mistake since you couldn't bring the bible or pamphlets"

TR,

What kind of nonsense are you talking about? Do you know anything about the United States Constitution? You can't forbid private citizens from carrying a Bible with them. We do not have "Bible free zones" in public space in the U.S.A. About 5 million war veterans just rolled over in their graves when you typed that.

"Some of these people are obviously not peaceful, and someone may get hurt"

Anyone who knows anything about Islam understands this. I'm pretty sure all the Christians who went to the festival know this. They are adults. If they choose to put themselves in harms way for the sake of the Gospel who are you to tell them it's a bad idea? Also, how long has it been since you have seriously examined the New Testament? It certainly doesn't paint a picture of Christians who only share the Gospel when they are sure they won't get hurt. Quite the opposite. We are commanded to put ourselves in harms way for the sake of the Gospel.

"What if a group of Muslims went to a Christian rally with a shirt that had an anti-Christian message on it or whatever."

(*sigh* This is getting tiresome. I'm going to chalk this one up to TR being a recent arrival to the blog and the events surrounding this situation)

TR,

This wasn't a Muslim festival. It is an ARAB festival (there is such a thing as a Christian Arab, atheist Arab, etc.). Secondly, who was wearing shirts with "Anti-Muslim messages"? I have seen no evidence that this was the case. Where are you getting this idea from? I happen to know the character of some of the people in this particular video, and I can assure you it would be COMPLETELY out of character for them to wear shirts with anti-Muslim messages. Are you just pulling things out of thin air?

Haecceitas said...

"Did you think these people were going to listen to you guys? Or did you want to prove something else?"

If you've read all of the relevant info from some of the most recent blog posts here, you should know that many Muslims did listen to them. And why wouldn't they? Are you implying that all Muslims are incapable of having a peaceful and rational dialogue?

Nakdimon said...

I hope you sew their pants off. And use the money for resources to further expose Islam.

Mac said...

God help us! WOW.

Memo said...

There are a lot of lawsuits that should be filed on this and you are in the best position to do so. Why not ask people do donate funds so you can fight for freedom in America? I'm Jewish and I want you to know that the battle you are fighting is my battle as well.

Kendall said...

How is it that certain streets are off limits to witnessing in Dearborn? Has that law been challenged?

mirele said...

I'm going to suggest to people that they use their favorite search engine and plug in "time place and manner restrictions". What you will find out is that it is NOT a free-for-all out there. Courts all over the country have upheld legitimate time, place and manner restrictions on speech.

The rationale for Dearborn's restrictions was that they have 300,000 people over three days along a one-mile stretch of Warren Ave. between Schaefer Rd. and Wyoming Ave. [what is this Dearbornistan? those are not Arab street names] and that crowd control measures were necessary. These included restricting ALL pamphleteering to booths in a particular section of the festival. The city also put in a "buffer zone" restriction around the festival and a district court had no problem with it. However, the Sixth Circuit (as noted in a Temporary Restraining Order in the George Saieg case) said that was too much--and lifted the restriction ONLY for George Saieg. It's likely that the buffer zone restriction will be gone next year, after Saieg's appeal is heard.

But I've come to the conclusion that you people are essentially lawless. You don't care about law, policy or the Constitution when it runs up against your stated desire to "evangelize Muslims" in the most annoying way possible. (I call it "aggropreaching.") Everything else goes by the wayside, even though your fellow Christians (oh, and, by the way, "co-religionists" is a perfectly good dictionary word) either have no problem abiding by the rules and/or going to court to get the rules overturned.

In other words, I'm probably wasting electrons trying to explain something that you and your followers don't believe applies to you. I'm telling you that you are just as subject to the law as the rest of us.

And, I'd like to suggest that the next time the awful garage band across the street from your house starts practicing "Freebird" in the wrong key at 120 decibels at 2 am in the morning, that you not call the cops to have them enforce your city's noise ordinance. After all, those restrictions on freedom of speech (and music is speech) really don't matter, right? Right?

Roger Sharp said...

Hey Guys & Gals,

Much can be accomplished by contacting Senators, Representatives, Dearborn's Mayor, Chief-of-Police, etc. I urge everyone to send a CIVIL and RESPECTFUL email to each of these individuals.

Here is link to get you started: http://www.infomi.com/us.html

THIS IS WORTH DOING!

Roger Sharp

Pat said...

Your video brought tears to my eyes and caused my heart to ache for the lost. Oh! What darkness sits in the hearts and souls of the lost! I am sorry you were arrested...shame to the Dearborn police dept. and their fear of making muslims/Arabs/atheists angry! Stay strong in your faith. I am new to your website (found it by reading the article that WND printed). I am impressed at your courage and your witness! Continue to bring light to the world and as you know, our rewards are way beyond this world. God bless you all.

Adam said...

mirele,

Nothing that these guys did was akin to playing loud music at 2am. They were disturbing anything. They were having quiet peaceful conversation with Muslim Arabs. How is that somehow parallel to loud racket at 2 O'Clock in the morning?

Also, you saw the video. Did you see them forcing people to take a copy of the Gospel of John? No. They were peacefully offering it to people. Yet, they get arrested.

In fact, I am coming at this from a different angle. I know very little about Islam. I only know what I read on this blog, what has been said on the Iron Sharpens Iron program, and what Dr. White talks about on his program. I have seen people doing all kinds of similar things in similar situations, and have never seen the police raise a finger.

It is absurd to say that one cannot talk about religion in a culture festival, or that one cannot pass out free copies of the Bible to anyone who wants one. Everything was perfectly fine and peaceful...that is, until the police stepped in.

God Bless,
Adam

The Berean Search said...

Mirele,

4 people were arrested in the festival when they were handing out no pamphlets whatsoever. On top of that you clearly have a personal problem with the approach Acts17 uses. You also have clear presupposition that no one in the Muslim community in Dearborn could possibly have anti-democratic motives. You display this presupposition so strongly that you keep mockingly using the phrase "Dearbornistan" in a prejorative fashion even though I don't recall anyone in this thread using it but you. Your attitude is exactly the type that fosters creeping Sharia in western countries.

Stated succintly, I do not value your opinion because I believe you have some sort of personal issue with operators of this blog.

The Berean Search said...

Mirele is a recent "revert" (I put it in quotes because the concept that everyone is born as a follower of the theology brought by Muhammad is a absurd). Suddenly everything makes just a little more sense. Now I know where those presuppositions and instant negative opinion of Acts17 comes from :).

Brother Dave said...

Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. (Luke 6:22-23)

DD said...

Mirele,

It seems you highlight and find it more disruptive to the people of Dearborn, to have four Christians attending a public event, and have other attendees freely coming up to them of their own accord with questions, than that loud music playing at the the event that can be heard from blocks away. I just find that a bit odd..

1moremuslim said...

They were arrested for deception, since they only distribute 1 out of four Gospels, and it happens to be the later unreliable Gospel of John. Why don't you distribute the Gospel of Mark? It's more historical, is it less inspired?
Next time, try to do this in front of a synagogue or a Jewish festival, especially the part where Paul says " the Jewish law is a curse", let's see what would happen to you.

kingh said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG1DYuzVgSk

Dear David

if you can put this video from youtube where muslims are practicing freedom of speech but as christian you can't. America should think what this video. David and Nabeel you are doing great job God Bless You.

TedH said...

One more Muslim, there is no such passage where Paul says the Jewish law is a curse. You can look it up on BibleGateway.com .

David Jones said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mirele said...

Erm, there IS a reason why you couldn't pass out the Gospel of John where you were. That's because you were within the five-block "buffer zone." You admitted it yourself in your video.

Now, you could have gone the civil disobedience route and continued to pass out literature until you were arrested. However, that would have meant that you would have acknowledged the (current) legitimacy of the restriction on literature distribution within five blocks of the festival. As I have previously stated, you people believe you are not under the rule of law, thus, taking the civil disobedience (or, to put it in religious terms you might understand, the "obeying a higher law" route) was not for you. Instead, you think NO LAW applies to your activities.

But please stop telling people you don't understand why you were asked to leave. You know why you were asked to leave and you shouldn't mislead people otherwise.

Tim said...

For everyone that supports the rights of any US citizen's right to free speech, whether you agree or disagree with the David, Nabeel's and the others attempt to witness near the festival, please use this link to let the Dearborn mayor know you disagree with the city's policy regarding the festival.

http://www.cityofdearborn.org/important-contacts/60-mayors-office/2-mayor

VJ said...

1moremuslim
since they only distribute 1 out of four Gospels, and it happens to be the later unreliable Gospel of John. Why don't you distribute the Gospel of Mark? It's more historical, is it less inspired?

So according to your criteria is Sura 9 less reliable then Sura 96 as it was revealed later?
or did your pagan God Allah abrogate it as well?

Next time, try to do this in front of a synagogue or a Jewish festival, especially the part where Paul says " the Jewish law is a curse", let's see what would happen to you.
well this shows your ignorance just like all your other muzzie brothers inspired by deedat and joker naik..
btw you should see deedat's new kid on the debate floor sheikh awal smoked in the debate with DR white..perhaps we can post those debates in dearbon next year..

And as for your synagogue challenge i can do it..there is one in my area..The Jews are much better than you muzzies following the satanic quran.
The Jews follow the holy Torah delivered by one true God Yahweh instead of a God(Allah) whose afraid of the power of the cross.

Steve Miller said...

Dear 1moremuslim,
There is no problem to give out New Testaments or whatever outside a synagogue. Not many will receive them, some may mock you, but they will not call the police on you, and they will not try to start a riot and blame it on you and lie. My wife and I give out gospel tracts door to door in Oak Park.

minoria said...

Alot of whining from Muslim leaders all the time in the West and they do nothing to stop human-rights abuses of non-Muslims in Muslim countries.
Recently Imam Raouf,the guy in charge of the 13-story megamosque,in the the NY POST,refused 2 TIMES to condemn HAMAS as a TERRORIST group.
How beautiful.Mirele and Nazam,do you 2 condemn the KKK,apartheid and racism?I guess yes.Now do you 2 ALSO condemn Hamas,yes or no? If NO,why not?

Nakdimon said...

They were arrested for deception, since they only distribute 1 out of four Gospels, and it happens to be the later unreliable Gospel of John. Why don't you distribute the Gospel of Mark? It's more historical, is it less inspired?
Next time, try to do this in front of a synagogue or a Jewish festival, especially the part where Paul says " the Jewish law is a curse", let's see what would happen to you.


If arresting people for deception was actually a law, all muslims would be jailed. Furthermore, the most unreliable Gospel is the very Gospel that Muslims run to when you ask them what Surah 7:157 is referring to:

Muhsin Khan: Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find WRITTEN WITH THEM in the Taurat (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15) AND THE INJEEL (GOSPEL) (JOHN XIV, 16), -

So would you please be so kind to tell us why you appeal to the most trustworthy of accounts of the life of Yeshua in order to try to prove Muhammad is mentioned in the Gospel? And if you think 7:157 is not about the Gospel of John, then where can we find Muhammad. (Notice the verse says that this Gospel where they could find Muhammad was WITH THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK at the time of Muhammad. The ONLY Gospel the Christians had in the 7th century was Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. So take your pick.)

Lastly, it is very easily to tell the Jewish people that the Torah curses / condemns them in Judgment with God, because when Paul says that the law is a curse, he quotes the Torah to prove it. See he was not an ignoramus like Muhammad, who had no clue what the Torah and Gospel said. Paul had full knowledge of the Scriptures and quoted them extensively. What evidence do you have that your prophet had actual knowledge of the Torah and Gospel that he was appealing to? JUST ONE EXAMPLE PLEASE!

Rgds,
Nakdimon

minoria said...

It's so sad how Western journalists are so ignorant,often stupid.For example they repeat "In Muslim Spain Christians,Jews and Muslims lived in tolerance."

LACK OF PROFESSIONALISM

If I were a journalist I would VERIFY.Imam Raouf calls his mosque the CORDOVA HOUSE.Hmmm

Muslims were in Spain from 711-1492.They were uppermost from 711-1031.
We know:

1.AVERROES(greatest Muslim philsopher of all time,born in CORDOBA)was in favor of KILLING apostates.

2.MAIMONIDES,greatest Jewish philosopher of Middle Ages,born in CORDOBA,calles Mohammed a MESHUGA(crazy man).

3.That EVERY YEAR the Muslims in Spain went on RAZZIAS,slave-hunting expeditions to get Spanish men as slaves and Spanish women as sex-slaves.They set out from CORDOBA,the capital.It is a HISTORICAL fact(read ANDREW BOSTOM's "The Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism",page 99).

4.In the 10th century the caliph of Spain had 10,000 CHRISTIAN women as sex-slaves in his harem.What an model for Christian-Muslim coexistence.

5.From 850-855 in CORDOBA 50 Christians were executed for criticism of Islam and Mohammed.

It is important JOURNALISTS write all this in the papers,Muslim Spain was no ideal state,the CORDOBA HOUSE name is an insult.I write this so other non-Muslims KNOW it and tell others.Now you know and so you can argue with a journalist who talks of "Al-Andalus,Muslim Spain,as an ideal and model for today.'And there are many journalists who talk like that.

1moremuslim said...

To VJ
"The Jews follow the holy Torah delivered by one true God Yahweh"

Paul says that the Law is a curse, can you make up your mind please, is it Holy or a curse?

Nora said...

Calm down, VJ, and quit being derogatory with your language, i.e. 'muzzies.'

We're Christians and we don't talk like that (i.e. Jude v8ish) To quote Ravi Zacharias, 'there is never a reason to be unkind.

1moremuslim said...

To VJ:
Ceikh Awal being smoked by Dr White doesn't mean anything to me, in the same way, Christians preachers being mapped off the floor by Deedat and Naik over 10 years doesn't mean anything to you, does it?
We have seen the limitations of Dr White debating 20 year old student in London, Dr White looks for winning debates rather than having his views challenged. The best rebuttals given against Shabir Ally are "Those scholars are liberals" instead of dealing with arguments.

The Satanic Quran prohibited Alcohol and saved millions of lives, whereas the Bible has failed to do the same. But nevermind , the Christian theology is a pack of paradoxes, God becomes a curse and yet Holy, Satan saving lives yet Evil !!??

Marci M. said...

I just called the Dearborn, MI chief of police office and asked simply, "Where can I hand out Christian literature in Dearborn?" They have to return my call. I asked, "Isn't it a basic thing? And the person got snappy with me and said they would call me back. I'm calling from KS. They need to know we Americans are watching. Get your act together, Dearborn, MI police!

mirele said...

David, Nabeel, etc.:

Are you going to tell your readers you were in fact asked to move your distribution five blocks away because you were within the "buffer zone" established for the festival?

Despite statements to the contrary, you were not asked to move because you were distributing the gospel of John, or because it was some sort of Muslim v. Christian thing, or because it was "Sharia law" triumphing over "freedom."

No, you were asked to move because the city had put into place a content-neutral (there's another thing for you all to google) rule that prohibited EVERYONE from leafleting on those three days within the five block area. The only exception was George Saieg, who had a Temporary Restraining Order allowing him to leaflet in that area. (You might want to ask your lawyers about it, I believe they're representing Saieg as well.)

I don't see how hard this is to explain; rather, you'd rather let people believe that Dearborn is being overrun by eeevul Moozlims denying your freedoms. *shakes head*

Haecceitas said...

"We have seen the limitations of Dr White debating 20 year old student in London, Dr White looks for winning debates rather than having his views challenged. The best rebuttals given against Shabir Ally are "Those scholars are liberals" instead of dealing with arguments."

Shabir Ally's "arguments" are often not much more than blanket appeals to "scholars say..". It's perfectly legitimate to point out that those are the type of scholars that would have a lot of interesting things to say about the Quran too.

But for an example, take the issue of the authorship of the epistles of Peter that came up in their second debate. It seemed pretty clear to me that it was Shabir Ally who was unwilling to deal with the arguments. He preferred to repeat the "scholars say" mantra.

As for White debating a 20 year old (Sami Zaatari), I'm not sure that he specifically wanted to debate him. As long as he didn't turn down an opportunity to debate someone more experienced than Zaatari, there should be no reason to criticize him about this. (As an aside, he apparently recently debated Ehteshaam Gulam who at the last moment took the place of Sheikh Awal in the second debate. Now THAT is what I'd call a mismatch, but again, this is not something that he wanted to do.)

"The Satanic Quran prohibited Alcohol and saved millions of lives, whereas the Bible has failed to do the same."

Is this the infamous Nadir Ahmed argument from fetal alcohol syndrome?

Naomi said...

To the writers of this blog: I would urge that you be careful, give full disclosure, and do not use scare tactics to get people to agree with you. If you do these things, and your rights are truly being infringed, you will ultimately be vindicated. If you give partial truths you will only make everything you stand for more ridiculous.

And remember, this is not a war of ideology or words, or litigation, between institutional Christianity and institutional Islam. If you treat it as such, you may gain political power for Christianity, but lose many souls. And you may believe that you have no such intention, but you must weigh your words wisely since you choose to speak out. Even if you are not waging war against Islam, it is obvious from the comments on this that many people who follow your words believe that is what you are doing.

Nora said...

1moremuslims:

I find this:
"The Satanic Quran prohibited Alcohol and saved millions of lives, whereas the Bible has failed to do the same."

fascinating.

Do you mean to say that the Quran's great achievement is banning alcohol?

Matthew said...

Well, I called and spoke with Dispatcher Rodriguez of the Dearborn Police Department and the video is indeed one-sided, as I suspected. Individuals are allowed to distribute pamphlets, scripture, etc as long as the people who are wanting to distribute have a permit or purchase a permit, just like the JW's and the Mormons. Rodriguez said this also includes people who want to hand out fliers for stores.

It is obvious in this video that the people on camera, including the camera operator did not follow the local law (ordnance) and if they did, then they would have every right to distribute the Gospel.

Tom said...

@Naomi,

Be aware, please, that Islam IS most definitely waging war against all of the rest of humanity - you included (Jews and Christians, especially). Yes, this is VERY MUCH a war between ideologies - not religions. Islam is NOT a religion!

This is a war of racist Islamic hatred especially against Jews and all other non-Muslims (Islam hates ALL races equally if they're not Muslims). This war was declared by Islam against all of human civilization more than a thousand years ago and they have every intention of destroying everything that humans hold dear.
Be aware, please, that we are VERY MUCH at war.

But I agree with you that we need to be as tender here as we can possibly be. We want to bring Muslims OUT of the nightmare of their hate-filled and misogynist ideology. And don't worry, we have administrators of this blog who will call any of us down (including me) if we get too rough.

We want to help Muslims find refuge in the arms of the Only Lord who is hope for all humanity: THE Lord Jesus Christ. But again, we ARE at war. Will you ever join in? Will you ever be a part of helping Muslims escape from the disease with which they've been infected? Are you in already? Are you offering shelter to Muslim young people trying to escape Islamicly prescribed death? Are you providing refuge to Muslim women seeking to escape Islamicly prescribed beatings and worse?

I don't post here more often because there is SO MUCH to do in helping Muslims escape. HUNDREDS of Muslims are coming to Christ Jesus every day - all over the world (and that estimate may be too conservative). But we ARE at war and I will continue to remind you and everyone else here - so long as David allows it - that un-saved Muslims have NO INTENTION of ever being contributing members of any society. Muslims exist as parasites on any social system. Their mentality is that of the ancient thieves and bandits: they intend to have what they want by any means they choose.

Naomi, I whole heartedly agree that arguing with Muslims is a total waste of time. Many Muslims are simply not interested in learning. Their minds are made up and they whine that instead we should learn about their wretched, infidel pseudo-prophet, a louse of a man who called himself "Mohammed" (may PB&J be u.h.b).

Should the writers here not be angered that Muslims lie to gain the privilege of citizenship? No? Muslims have NO INTENTION of defending ANY system of governance other than their filthy sharia law.

Should the writers here not be outRAGED that a festival celebrating the ideology of an enemy of the USA has been held on sacred ground? (ALL of the western hemisphere is sacred ground) Oh, Naomi, I believe the owners of this blog and the gracious writers who contribute here have every RIGHT to be hopping mad regarding the filth that was perpetrated in Dearborn by the enemies of human freedom. If anything, the writers here are too gracious.

However, for any Muslim who demonstrates an interest in learning, I believe we should, indeed, offer gentle care and guidance. Otherwise, remember what I have already told you: we ARE at war! MUCH prayer and MUCH political organizing must be done to rebuke and disloge this filthy ideology. We need to be busy about it - no holds barred. Get OUT of the blogs and INTO the offices of political representatives and DEMAND that sharia law be forbidden in your state or province. Get OUT of your safety and INTO the offices of policy makers and REQUIRE of them that immigrants to your nation openly RENOUNCE any ideology that is counter to the US Constitution (Islam especially) before they can be allowed citizen status.

Naomi, there is MUCH work to do if you want a future without the imposition of Islam. So let me remind you, one more time: we ARE at war. The Muslims intend to destroy or enslave us all. I say, "not in my lifetime!" What say ye?

KAFIR AND PROUD! May JESUS CHRIST BE PRAISED!!

1moremuslim said...

Haecceitas:

It's amazing! when Muslims use Encyclopedia Britannica, the Christians raise a red flag, when we use scholarly works, still raising the red Flag. Would you decide what kind of references do you accept? Shabir Ally presents the Arguments of Scholars not just their names. Of course an easy way out is to disqualify the Person rather then refuting the arguments. That is an old fallacy called Ad Hominem.

"Is this the infamous Nadir Ahmed argument from fetal alcohol syndrome?"
This is another fallacy called the genetic Fallacy, since Nadir Ahmed is a bad debater, so all of his arguments are bad. Another proof of failing to deal with the arguments.
Dr White asked me for a debate, publicly, on my youtube channel. Could you imagine? A PHD with over 20 books, over 25 years of apologetics, inviting a youtuber to a public debate?


To Nora:
"Do you mean to say that the Quran's great achievement is banning alcohol?"
Not the greatest, but still better than nothing. Don't you think that saving millions of babies is great?


All this Saga is insignificant, Muslims were detained for praying in the open air. they were handcuffed and put faces down on the ground. Then what?! Did we accuse Christians of imposing inquisition? Childish fear mongering tactics.

VJ said...

@1moremuslim
To VJ:
Ceikh Awal being smoked by Dr White doesn't mean anything to me, in the same way, Christians preachers being mapped off the floor by Deedat and Naik over 10 years doesn't mean anything to you, does it?

No it doesn't mean anything to me cause deedat and naik never managed to mapp scholars and debaters, just picking and choosing people non-debaters is what the great showman naik does,besides i did see how deedat was mapped upside down on the floor my josh McDowell,a video which Muslims are yet to publish on the internet.
if naik is so great then why is he afraid for so many years of shamoun and the rest of the marathon guys?
So sad to see your hero has let you down.

We have seen the limitations of Dr White debating 20 year old student in London, Dr White looks for winning debates rather than having his views challenged.
So debating a 20 yr old is a limitation for you?
besides Dr white never said anywhere in the debate that he won,instead he said at the end to judge the debate,it was zaatari who always made a false impression of refuting Dr white here and there..

The best rebuttals given against Shabir Ally are "Those scholars are liberals" instead of dealing with arguments.
it was actually shabbir that was not dealing with the arguments and trying to get away by using fallacy of appealing to authority.

The Satanic Quran prohibited Alcohol and saved millions of lives, whereas the Bible has failed to do the same.
and who saved all the millions in the terrorist attacks inspired by the satanic quran.......??

Paul says that the Law is a curse, can you make up your mind please, is it Holy or a curse?
dont bother about my mind and answer question by NAKDIMON which will expose your inconsistency.

Haecceitas said...

"It's amazing! when Muslims use Encyclopedia Britannica, the Christians raise a red flag, when we use scholarly works, still raising the red Flag. Would you decide what kind of references do you accept? Shabir Ally presents the Arguments of Scholars not just their names. Of course an easy way out is to disqualify the Person rather then refuting the arguments. That is an old fallacy called Ad Hominem."

You're misunderstanding me. Clearly it's better to use actual scholars to back up one's opinion. But I don't get the impression that Shabir Ally uses scholarly material in a fair way. Sometimes he spins it to suit his needs. Sometimes he picks and chooses elements from various scholars to create a combination that virtually no scholar would hold and base this on "scholars say" because there are some scholars who say some of the individual things in other contexts. It's not always that bad. I actually think that Shabir Ally is one of the better Muslim debaters. But in most cases, he should focus more on the actual arguments. My point is just to note that I think this is the reason why White tends to bring up the "those are liberal scholars" card. I may even agree that he uses it a bit more than he should, but in many instances it is well warranted.


"This is another fallacy called the genetic Fallacy, since Nadir Ahmed is a bad debater, so all of his arguments are bad. Another proof of failing to deal with the arguments."

No, it's not that the argument is bad because Nadir Ahmed uses it. Rather, it's Nadir Ahmed who uses it becase it is so bad. I really thought that Nadir would be just about the only Muslim who's impressed by such reasoning but apparently he isn't the only one. Well, do tell me what is gained healthwise by a total prohibition of alcohol. As I understand it, there are actually some medical studies that suggest that a small amount of alcohol can be good for one's health. The exception is the health of the unborn during a pregnancy, but it's a bit like using a gun to kill a fly to forbid alcohol use in all contexts to protect the fetuses of pregnant women.

On the other hand, if you think that using alcohol (even in moderation) is inherently wrong regardless of the issue of health, this would seem to question the moral status of the paradise as described in the Quran (47:15).

"Dr White asked me for a debate, publicly, on my youtube channel. Could you imagine? A PHD with over 20 books, over 25 years of apologetics, inviting a youtuber to a public debate?"

I can understand this if it was in response to your criticisms of him. It may have been more of a rhetorical point. I don't really know the details of this.

John Lollard said...

"That is an old fallacy called Ad Hominem."

"This is another fallacy called the genetic Fallacy, "

If I ever find the Wikipedia editor who one day organized the "List of Logical Fallacies" page... I'll probably just be really irate with him since I'm a pacifist. Anytime I see people throwing around left and right "That's the fallacy of excluded middle", "that's the fallacy of the upside-down creamsicle", etc., I know that they went to the stupid wikipedia page, read all of them and are just waiting for any opportunity, pertinent or not, to start flexing their alleged "knowledge" of logic.

1moremuslim, simply put, that is not the genetic fallacy. Not like it matters that it isn't the genetic fallacy, or the "genetic fallacy" entry on wikipedia, as more to the point it is not a fallacy.

Nadir Ahmed is well-known for making bad arguments. You are using one of his well-known bad arguments. Dismissing this bad argument as being a bad argument is a perfectly rational thing to do. Noting that an argument is not only bad but well-known for its badness before you waste all of our time bothering with a well-known and bad argument is also a very sensible and almost polite thing to do, too.

"Dr White asked me for a debate, publicly, on my youtube channel. Could you imagine? A PHD with over 20 books, over 25 years of apologetics, inviting a youtuber to a public debate? "

And why then did you not accept his challenge? It sounds like a great platform to get your message and name out there! I mean, gosh, if I was so confident that I'd win, I'd do it hands down! Why didn't you? Wouldn't that be a wonderful victory for the Prophet to see a Muslim kid on youtube take down renowned Christian apologist? You should definitely accept.

1moremuslim said...

TO Nakdimon:
I didn't say the Gospel of John is a 100% forgery, I said it's unreliable. But why don't you answer the Question? Why don't you distribute the Gospel of Mark? Is it less inspired?
John 15,16 and 17 are highly doubted to be authentic. In John 14, Jesus said I will not talk anymore, let us leave. Furthermore, John 16:5 is at odds with John 14:5. John 18:6 shows that the Author has a clear agenda, one cannot figure out what makes the Soldiers fall to the ground!?

Regarding the saying of Paul, consider my statement:
Those who are under the grace of God are under a curse, because it is revealed: Whoever is not under the grace of God is cursed.
Did I misquote the Bible when I say: Those who are not under the grace of God, are cursed? do you agree with my statement? Why not? I believe my statement is grotesque. So is the statement of Paul. The Problem with that statement is that Paul is qualifying the law by those who don't follow the law. It's like saying : those who are under the law of the USA are condemned, because those who don't follow the law, are condemned. Simply foolish!
I don't mind to say that the Torah condemns the Jews, We say also the Quran condemns the bad Muslims. There is a crucial difference between cursing and being a curse. God CURSES the unbeliever, You don't dare call God a CURSE? Do you? Why Not? Because You would be a blasphemer, just like Paul. There is a difference between Quoting scripture (Very easy) and commenting on scripture.

Steven Silverman said...

Inside the festival, the Arabic Alliance Church was passing out Christian materials, including the gospel of John and Romans in Arabic and English. Josh McDowell was passing out free copies of his books. I guess that means a group must have registered tent space in the festival in order to pass things out there. But I still wonder if Muslims without tent space would be allowed to pass things out anyway.

1moremuslim said...

To John Lollard,

"Dismissing this bad argument as being a bad argument is a perfectly rational thing to do. Noting that an argument is not only bad but well-known for its badness before you waste all of our time bothering with a well-known and bad argument is also a very sensible and almost polite thing to do, too."

It would be more rational, if , instead of this long comedy like paragraph, to show why my argument is a bad one. I think it's the best argument for responding the Christian fellow who made the claim that the Quran is from Satan, and there are also others; The prohibition of usury, the prohibition of Gambling, Institution of charity...All of these are quite strong refutations for the "Satanic origin" claim. Unless you believe in a Satan who repented from his evil deeds!

Yes indeed, Seeing a 20 year old student debating a professional 50 year old PHD of Christian theology is a wonderful victory in itself. It tells a lot about how much of knowledge we need, to challenge the Christian theology.
Can you imagine a debate : "Does the Quran teaches that Muhammad is a prophet?" I think Christianity is the only religion, that his fundamental doctrines are still open to debates.

To VJ:
You know, a single disappointment that I had with Shabir Ally is that he debated Sam Shamoun. I think Ally would never do it again. There is a certain level that Scholars should not go below. If You are debating a guy who seems to present good arguments that a rectangle has actually 3 sides not 4, then, either there is something wrong with his arguments or there is something wrong with your perception of "good arguments".
There are two cases where one cannot win a debate, either the opponent is far more knowledgeable and eloquent, or the opponent is extremely ignorant ( or dishonest) but eloquent. Sam Shamoun is one who can prove anything from any book. He proved that in the Quran, there are more than one God, he has an article in which he proves that Allah actually prays, and that all the translators are wrong in translating the Quran from Arabic to English, and only him, who exposed the universal conspiracy of the translators. And the top of that , Dr James White endorses the article and call it " An excellent Quranic insight" .
The last blunder of james White against cheikh Awal, is claiming that Allah repented in the Quran, he endorsed Sam's tactics, if you don't know how to respond to the accusation, accuse your opponent of the same thing!

John Lollard said...

"It would be more rational, if , instead of this long comedy like paragraph, to show why my argument is a bad one."

I'm glad you enjoyed my paragraph. I had a lot of fun writing it :)

It's funny that you brought up this exact point. I'm not sure how much you know about the Judeo-Christian understanding of the enemy. The two names most commonly used of the enemy mean "accuser" and "deceiver".

The understanding of the enemy that persisted at the time of Christ was similar to that of a persecuting lawyer who attempts to show your guilt before God by holding you up to a rigid law and exploiting your shortcomings. In this sense, he was the accuser. The enemy would also, in order to fully demonstrate your weakness, tempt you into disobedience to that law, making him the deceiver.

The accuser then does hate evil, and yet desires men to commit evil to justify himself in his hatred of them. I actually think there is a similar understanding in the Quran about Eblis refusing to bow to Adam.

The reason why any of this matters is because of the position of religious laws within Islamic theology. Given the Christian understanding of the enemy, the presence of strict laws, even righteous and just laws, says nothing in either way about satanic influence.

What does say something about satanic influence is the relation of these laws to the love of God. And I think Islam's relation does.

'Can you imagine a debate : "Does the Quran teaches that Muhammad is a prophet?" I think Christianity is the only religion, that his fundamental doctrines are still open to debates.'

Of course the Quran doesn't teach that! As it was originally written, the Quran taught the sovereign Lordship of Christ Jesus as eternally begotten of the Father, and stressed that Muhammad was just a simple poet! It wasn't until the false prophet Uthmann changed the entire Quran and started corrupting things, burning the TRUE Quran that insisted on Muhammad's non-prophethood and denied the Gospel of Jesus that the Quran came to say that. But at the exact same time and in the most paradoxical fashion, the present Quran still doesn't teach that Muhammad is a prophet even though it was corrupted so that it would!

Does that make sense to you?

1moremuslim, here's the problem you're making. James White asking you to a debate doesn't mean that you're qualified to debate him. It means that he wants you to know that you need to stop talking and be quiet because he has debated bigger fish than you, actual scholars in fact who do this for a living, and won. Fortunately it had that effect as you have not actually debated him, but sadly that effect has not seeped into either your mind or your ego. The fact that Muslims deny essential doctrines of Christianity just means that Muslims are being dishonest and unreasonable in their ability to let Christianity speak for itself, because in so doing they would have to deny the prophethood of Muhammad. I for one have no problem letting Islam speak for itself, because I have nothing to fear from Islam

I hope you let this stuff seep in, man. I really do.

Love in Christ,
JL

John Lollard said...

"He proved that in the Quran, there are more than one God, he has an article in which he proves that Allah actually prays, and that all the translators are wrong in translating the Quran from Arabic to English, and only him, who exposed the universal conspiracy of the translators."

Ahah! But this is the fallacy of argument from authority! :P Just kidding

On an honest note, the fact that the word used in the Quran is traditionally translated as "bless" when used of Allah does not change the fact that when anyone else does the same thing it means "pray". I know nothing or Arabic, but is it not true that in the sentences in question, if Allah was no the subject and instead Muhammad was, that the sentence would not read "Muhammad blesses" but "Muhammd prays"? Is it not also the case that a completely different word is used to mean "bless" in Arabic?

If that is the case, as Sam and James have argued, then it would seem that the Quran does in fact say that Allah prays, and that this statement is interpreted to mean that Allah blesses.

If that is NOT the case, if the word in question does not in fact mean "pray" when used of anyone else besides Allah and if the word in question is actually the Arabic word for "bless", then I guess they're wrong. But so far I have not heard any Muslim make the case that the Arabic word doesn't actually mean "to pray", but just heard Muslims ridicule Sam for not agreeing with translators. The fact that Muslims aren't even willing to make the argument, just point and laugh, to me speaks volumes.

Maybe it doesn't to you. I dunno.

Love in Christ,
JL

mkvine said...

I think the fact that James White debated a 20 year old muslim, is not because he was looking for an easy win, its because that's the BEST that Islam has to offer. This speaks volumes of the current apologetic crisis Islam is going through.

hugh watt said...

1moremuslim said:

"Does the Quran teaches that Muhammad is a prophet?" I think Christianity is the only religion, that his fundamental doctrines are still open to debates."

S:29.27. And We gave (Abraham)
Isaac and Jacob, and ordained
Among his progeny Prophethood
And Revelation, and We
Granted him his reward
In this life; and he was
In the Hereafter (of the company)
Of the Righteous.

S:45.16. We did aforetime
Grant to the Children
Of Israel the Book,
The Power of Command,
And Prophethood; We gave
Them, for Sustenance, things
Good and pure; and We
Favoured them above the nations.

His "prophethood" shouldn't be open to debate according to these ayahs.

Muhammad's behavior deserves to come under scrutiny. Killing, plundering, child bride, lying; serious character flaws i say.
Other people from other religions Q his "prophethood" too.

1moremuslim said...

To John Lollar:
Normally I don't waste my time refuting absurd arguments, but I detected some honesty in your reply.
First, Sam Shamoun missed a crucial small 2 letter word after the word SALLA (pray), that makes as much difference as between GIVE and GIVE UP ,in English. One who studied elementary Arabic, ( I was raised in Arabic schools) would make the difference. So the two verbs are not the same to begin with, that makes Sam and James look completely foolish, imagine one who has no idea of English claims that GIVE and GIVE UP have the same meaning, would you bother even waste 1 minute refuting him? In conclusion, the verb is translated "bless" not because of the subject, but because of Suffix that comes just after.
Now that the case for the verb is rested, As for the noun SALAWAT, there are words with double entendre, in Surah 22:40 the same word is translated SYNAGOGUES, not PRAYERS. If you have an objection to that, think twice, because of that infamous Greek word in John 3:3 which is translated AGAIN or FROM ABOVE, depending on what translation you read. The Greek word there is the same, that is why Necodemus misunderstood Jesus.

"Muslims aren't even willing to make the argument, just point and laugh, to me speaks volumes."

Muslims did refute that article extensively. And I also did here above, but l still feel I wasted my time. It's just so absurd.

All this being said, What is the goal of Sam's article? To prove that Muhammad was a polytheist? That he didn't understood the Quran? What is the conclusion? Probably Now Muslims would say "Peace and prayers be upon him" instead of peace and blessings be upon him? Is this " an excellent Quran insight" ?

The latest of James white is that Surah 2:37 says that God repents !!! Here I must stop wasting my time.

1moremuslim said...

To John Lollard:

You bring something new to me :
"The understanding of the enemy that persisted at the time of Christ was similar to that of a persecuting lawyer who attempts to show your guilt before God by holding you up to a rigid law and exploiting your shortcomings"
For a moment I thought you were describing Jesus when he said the hand that would sin should be cut off, and the eye that lust gouge it out! Or when he was asked how to enter the kingdom of God he replied you must keep the commandments (the harsh law of Moses) the poor guy replied I did all of that , Jesus then instructed him to sell ALL his property! The guy departed completely disparate of salvation.

"The enemy would also, in order to fully demonstrate your weakness, tempt you into disobedience to that law, making him the deceiver."
Oh my God, If I was to accuse Paul, I wouldn't find an argument as good as this!! Paul said that the law is a curse, and the circumcision will lead you to hell!! He taught the disobedience of the law!
I don't understand your point, do you mean that the prohibition of Gambling and alcohol is too harsh to follow? Liberal governments are implementing it gradually, if you are under 18 you cannot play lottery nor buy alcohol.

1moremuslim said...

To Nakdimon again

Regarding the saying of Paul, consider my statement:
Those who are under the grace of God are under a curse, because it is revealed: Whoever is NOT under the grace of God is cursed.
Did I misquote the Bible when I say: Those who are not under the grace of God, are cursed? do you agree with my statement? Why not? I believe my statement is grotesque. So is the statement of Paul. The Problem with that statement is that Paul is qualifying the law by those who don't follow the law. It's like saying : those who are under the law of the USA are condemned, because those who don't follow the law, are condemned. Simply foolish!
I don't mind to say that the Torah condemns the Jews, We say also the Quran condemns the bad Muslims. There is a crucial difference between cursing and being a curse. God CURSES the unbeliever, You don't dare call God a CURSE? Do you? Why Not? Because You would be a blasphemer, just like Paul. There is a difference between Quoting scripture (Very easy) and commenting on scripture.

John Lollard said...

1moremuslim,

You misunderstand all at once me, Jesus, Paul, and Christian theology.

Both God and the enemy despise wickedness. One despises it out of his own holiness, one despises it out of arrogant pride. Both hold human beings up to the standard of the Law. One does so out of holiness and love, the other does so out of arrogance and hatred. One and only one gives of Himself freely and enters into a loving covenant with sinful human beings in order to redeem them. The enemy, on the other hand, attempts to destroy us by accusing us before God of our sinfulness.

Christ ended accusations.

I've been reading through your comments where you keep talking about Paul calling the Law a curse, and I really have no idea what you think Paul means, what you think a curse means, what you think the Law is, or what you think you're saying. I am completely stupefied.

Paul is not an antinomianist. Paul does not tell Christians to do whatever their willy-nilly desires tell them to cuz' it's all gravy with Jesus, baby. Paul is often the most explicit in laying out the moral guidelines of Christian behavior, which are found in most of his epistles.

As a Muslim, you do not have a well-developed understanding of sacrifice. YHWH in the Bible requires sacrifices from His people, and when we speak about the Law we don't just mean the "do's" and "don't's", we mean also the sacrificial requirements for appeasing the wrath of God from violations of this Law. The books properly called "the Law" can be seen more as books of priestly instruction in the proper sacrificial offerings than moral guides, even though they do lay out morality. Leviticus in particular is all about blood offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, the bizarrely translate "wave offerings", all of which is absent from Islamic theology due to your disconnect with Biblical theology, but was front-and-center in the minds of the first followers of Jesus as they tried to understand the penal code of the Law.

The passage you are quoting from is Galatians. This was written to a gentile church in response to a group called the Judaizers who insisted that you had to become a Jew in order to follow Jesus, and this meant circumcision. This was a huge debate at the time. Paul defends his ministry as a belonging to a devout and strict group of Jews known as the Pharisees who now teaches in accord with Peter and James and John.

At the end of Galatians 2, vv 17-21, Paul is here explicit that he is not telling Christians to live sinfully, and instead explains what he is saying. Christian living is not about human effort to live righteously, but about trusting in God, the only one who can, to live for us and in us the righteous life that is required of us, trusting completely in His work to justify and sanctify us in His own time. As all of the Apostles knew (c.f. Acts 16), the yoke of the Law is too much of a burden to live by.

Christians do not trust our own efforts to make us righteous because we know that we are not righteous. We trust instead the Holy Spirit (the third person of the Trinity) to bring us into righteousness by changing our hearts from the inside. This is the tone that chapter 3 starts with. The Spirit of God is working through them to purify them not because of their efforts but because of their faith in God through the sacrifice of Christ to do so.

John Lollard said...

And that sacrifice is the point of the passage you keep quoting. By trusting themselves to live righteously by the Law, as opposed to trusting the Spirit, the Galatians are setting themselves up for failure, because as already discussed, human beings cannot meet the requirements of the Law on our own. If they do not meet the requirements, then they are cursed by that self-same Law. The contrast to this statement in v. 10 is not "those who do whatever their little hearts desire", but "those who rely on the Spirit and sacrifice of Christ". That same curse, then, mentioned in Deuteronomy and brought to our attention by Paul, the accusation that we are all cursed for not obeying the Law, is met by Christ in His physical body when He died on a tree, for as it also says, "cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree". Christ took on the curse required by the Law for us, so that now the curse that is ours by not obeying is given over to Him and we are instead free to serve God and obey Him out of joy and freedom.

If you keep reading, Paul will elucidate what he is saying. He assures the Galatians that they are counted heirs of God's promises not by outward circumcision or outward righteousness, but by inward righteousness that comes through the work of the Spirit (and can only come that way) and that expressed itself through love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. He insists that Christians have crucified their sinful nature and thus should not continue sinning but live in accord with the calling we have received. He strongly warns against sinning and asks us to keep others from sinning.

Now, while I was saying all of this, I came across a point dealing with the enemy that struck me. Back in Galatians 3:10, cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law, that is a true statement. At the same time, it is a lie for those who live for Christ. The torment of the enemy in so many of my brothers and sisters is to work shame in them for their shortcomings. It is that shame that the enemy so often uses to separate my brethren from the joy of the Father's love.

Again, while God is holy and demands adherence to the Law because of His holiness, God Himself purifies His people for Himself. God steps into history and creation and works salvation for us, due to his indescribable love and mercy.

The enemy also demands our adherence to the Law, because the enemy is proud, arrogant, and hateful. The enemy accuses us of our inability to live godly lives, and in so doing seeks to separate us from God and cause us to rely on human means of salvation that will fail us.

Oddly, what I see in Islam is the latter. I see in Islam a law set to mirror God's Law that has a form of righteousness and yet denying the power of God to purchase it for us. I see outward rules that set up outward righteousness, our own adherence to the rules being the cause of our ultimate destination, or shortcomings being shameful and defiling to us, and the full punishment of that law constantly looming over the head of the believer.

My friend, you cannot live righteously, and neither can I. If you have ever sincerely tried, then you would know all the more. There is One alone who can live righteously, and out of love He will impute His righteousness to you and thereafter lead you into the perfect holiness that he requires of you.

Love in Christ,
JL

1moremuslim said...

To John Lollard :
Thank you for extensive and long reply, that shows that you care about your faith.
But all what you have presented is simply the old Christian Apologetic put with an emotional and philosophical reasoning. In essence:

-God (who is holy) cannot stand the sins in us, so he became a sin for us.
No matter how you put emotions in this ideology, it will not make sense for one who thinks.
You give an idea of God as one who discovers things as he goes, he created man in his image, then the man fall into sin, what made God regretful then he gave a law (that apparently saved nobody), then he sacrificed his Son in a terrific suffering. If God foresaw all that, I don't see why he created man at a first place. Would you make a machine, that you know it will cut your finger?
If you see , Judaism, Christianity and Islam, the odd man is clearly Christianity. Judaism and Islam regards the law as the expression of faith. The more you have faith the more you are willing to abide by the rules, faith and practice go hand in hand. Pauline Christianity took one element of Judaism (sacrifice), and based all their theology on that. You made God bound by his law, that he gave to a certain people, in a point in time. Let me ask you a question, if there is no way to be right with other than to believe that God died for your sins, how the Amerindians got salvation before Columbus got there?
As for Paul and the law, Paul misquotes the OT, he adds an emphasis (ALL) which is not found in Deut 27:26. The reason is obvious, he wants to convict the people who miss one dot of the law.
Getting salvation by believing in a certain event in history is easy, too easy to be true. If it makes even a little sense, I will be your brother in Christ, do you know what is fasting Ramadhan in the heat of the summer? The Salat 5 times a day? To be Christian demands nothing, but it's just not appealing. Do yo believe your sins are completely washed out? Why are you still here? Still suffering like the Muslims, for what sins? The blood of Jesus was not enough?

John Lollard said...

'To be Christian demands nothing, but it's just not appealing."

To be a follower of Christ demands everything of us. Jesus's insistence that His followers pick up their crosses is much more than a command to wear pretty silver necklaces.

If you've listened to any of the debates, Islamic apologists frequently bring up the demanded and challenging commands of Jesus to disavow them for being demanding and challenging. Things like turn the other cheek and love your enemies. Those are very taxing on a person's will.

That said, many Christians are simply unfaithful and disobedient.

I'm not sure how I did put emotionalism into my explanation of Paul. My point was to inform you that Paul is not saying what you accused him of saying. I implicitly quoted many other of his writings while doing so, but I did not have space to actually cite references to them.

I will agree with your claim, provided that you mean modern rabbinic Judaism. As there is no longer any Temple for the Jews to offer sacrifice, Judaism has grown in a direction that ignores sacrifice and focuses instead on kosher regulations and identity. In that sense, Islam is more like Judaism. If you mean the biblical Judaism described in the Torah and the Prophets, then I have to disagree completely. Biblical theology is based on covenant and sacrifice, neither of which are operative concepts in Islamic theology.

Christianity also views obedience to the law an an expression of faith, by the way.

"if there is no way to be right with other than to believe that God died for your sins, how the Amerindians got salvation before Columbus got there?"

So far as I understand (and I'm a mathematician, not a theologian), it would have been through repentance and acknowledgement of Jesus Christ as their mediator before God through whose death a perfect righteousness is imputed to them. As to whether or not any Amerindians actually did, I am willing to concede it possible.

"Do yo believe your sins are completely washed out? "

Yes, by the one act of Christ at the Place of the Skull, at about the year 30 AD, Jesus served as the sacrifice for all sins that I have ever done and will ever do, and by drawing near to Him the benefit of that sacrifice is imputed to me, just as in Israel the high priest would make an offering that covered the sins of those who came to the presentation of the sacrifice. By while the Jewish sacrifices were imperfect and had to be re-offered year after year, Christ's was ultimate and final and offered once for all time.

"The blood of Jesus was not enough?"

The blood of Christ itself, as a sticky red body fluid, isn't really what Christians are talking about, just to clarify. But if you mean (as we do) the salvation that was purchased at the shedding of that blood when God himself stepped into creation and became his own perfect sacrifice to blot out the sins of his people (since that's what sacrifice does) once and for all time, then that blood is always more than enough.

I disike when I talk to much, so I will end now.

Love in Christ,
JL

Deborah said...

My name is Debbie Maher I am a 45 year old female born and raised on American soil, and I have never seen such hatred against AMERICANS in our own country. That's right, our own country. People who have emigrated INTO America are not Americans and most of the Muslims do not even speak English, so how did they make the speech in ENGLISH that is required to be here as a citizen? What is going on here?? Arabs HATE Americans. I have been a victim of nasty comments by Muslim men because I was not dressed in a tent from head to toe. Go home if you can't acclimate yourself to a country where we have the land of the free and you can be whatever religion you want without persecution!! They are now persecuting and intimidating us. I am sure the wives and husbands widowed by 911 are just thrilled with this. Dearborn Michigan, I feel bad for you, once a clean cut, free city, now having your rights impeded by our own law enforcement. Tisk, Tisk.

beth said...

WELL ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS GOD HELP THE ONES WHO PUT THIS INTO EFFECT HIS WORD WILL NOT RETURN VOID BY THE WAY ALLAH FANS WHAT U DONT REALIZE IS WHILE U AND THE REST OF THE PEOPLE AGAINST CHRIST IN THIS WORLD WILL NOT GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT FROM THE GOOD LORD ABOVE EVRYTHING THAT HAPPENS IS IN HIS GREAT BIG PLAN I USED TO WONDER WHY THERE WAS A HELL AND SUCH A HARSH PUNISHMENT NOT ONLY DID OUR SINS PLAY A PART IN HIS MAASACRE THE ACTUALL PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING HIS NAME OUT OF EVRYTHING ARE THE ONES WHO TRULY HAMMERED THE NAILS INTO HIM GOD FORBID I FEEL SO SORRY FOR THE ONES WHO ARE FOLLOWING THE NEW WORLD ORDER WATCHOUT WHEN THE FOR THE 7 YEAQR PEACE TREATY IN ISREAL BEGINS AND FOR THE ONE WHO TAKES LEADERSHIP THERE AND ALSO LOOK UP THE VERI-CHIP WITH THE Mark OF THE BEAST COINCIDENCE I THINK NOT THERES NOT MUCH TIME LEFT HERE AND THE DEVIL KNOWS IT IF PEOPLE CANT HEAR THE TRUTH NOW GOD NWILLM SEND THEM THE DELUSION TO BELIEVE THE LIES OF THE ANTI-CHRIST (SO CALLED MESSIAH) THE IO COMMANDMENTS ARE ALL ABOUT MORALS AND VALUES WHY WOULD ANYONE IN THERE RIGHT MIND TAKE THAT FROM OUR CHILDREN WE ARE OFFICIALLY A MUSLIM NATION AND GOD HELP US ALL FOR OTHERS IGNORANCE OF THE TRUE GOD

Linda Porter said...

This is absolutely incredible. But then, the Romans did it to Paul and John and Paul was a Roman citizen. I based my devotional teaching on my blogsite today on this incident. We really shouldn't be all that surprised, being that Jesus said this would happen, and our current politcal administration is Muslim-biased. I surely don't want to be standing next to those Dearborn police when they are before the Judgment Seat trying to defend their actions. Keep up the good work, Saints of God. Do not grow weary in well-doing. God bless you as you continue to carry the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the unbeliever.

Joyce D said...

http://www.cityofdearborn.org/government/city-services/public-information/press-releases/441-arab-fest-response
Every story has two sides, people.
Josh McDowell had no problems with engaging in Christian apologetics at the same festival. This link was pretty eye-opening for me.
Joyce D, Cedar Springs, Mich.

Tom said...

@Joyce D: Different things open the eyes of different people. One of the things that has been eye opening to me is that Chief Hadad and the Officials of Dearborn have not yet returned any of the confiscated (stolen?) equipment or footage. This story is not over. You are witnessing history in the making. Please stay tuned. I expect that you will have the opportunity to have your eyes opened even further.

KAFIR AND PROUD! MAY JESUS CHRIST BE PRAISED!!

David Jones said...

Whose camera did you use to make this video if your cameras were taken two days prior?

Nabeel Qureshi said...

He bought a new camera

loosechickens said...

What the Dearborn police did was absolutely disgusting. It seems everywhere you look our freedoms are under attack. The police seem to want to be a law unto themselves. Keep up the good fight my brothers and sisters!

Mika the Roofer said...

I'm not Christian, nor am I Muslim. Your personal beliefs may not be mine, but you certainly have as much right as any other Americans to express those. The concept that one religion should trump all others at an Arab festival or any other is revolting. Arabs come in many different religions and Dearborn refuses to recognize that all folks have the right to live as equals under the law.

I wonder what mayhem would have ensued if a Jewish Arab group showed up. (Yes, we do exist)

hugh watt said...

Mika:

"Arabs come in many different religions and Dearborn refuses to recognize that all folks have the right to live as equals under the law."

Could it be because there's an Islamic bias there maybe?

"I wonder what mayhem would have ensued if a Jewish Arab group showed up. (Yes, we do exist)"

I'm tempted to post you a number of Quran texts but,...

Psalm 122v6

Mike said...

Last time I looked at U.S. Federal case law, the Bill of rights trumps any state or city's attempt to squelch free expression of speech or religion, by ANY means - provided that there is no threat to public safety, incitement to violence. etc.
I didn't see any of that here. Looks the Dearborne Thought Police are on hand to only protect and serve the folks at the festival.

barbiedoll said...

I live in Australia and I would like to know how I can have a copy of your videos please?

The ones in Dearborn at the festival as I would like to show friends and family of mine.

Thanks

ForecastingN0W said...

One would expect local officials to support the interests of the local community. With a large and rapidly growing Muslim population, Dearborn police were supporting their constituents.

A problem arises when the sharia courts within the Mosque or the local police begin supporting positive actions or restrictions which are contrary to the US or Michigan laws or constitutions. It is then up to citizens or government prosecutors to bring actions before the courts. The courts can then intervene and remedy the situation.

Simply complaining will not solve the problem. We must be ever vigilant in defending our rights or they will be taken away.

Q said...

Someone commented that you should get this story to the news media--I suspect she doesn't understand how left handed, liberal and the level they go to in order to be politically correct. I commed you, David--and your abnsat.com work is fantastic, and I say that as a nonbeliever while I still can.

igor said...

Anyone please explain to me why are mainstream media and local autorities rabidly protecting islam and baltantly lying about its nature? What is happening?? What financial & poltical interests are behind this disgusting menace??

The Quoran and the actions of this cult are extremely clear. Who's behind the twisted ABC special? Why these police officers stepping on the US constitution? What's happening? Who's promoting this??

If anyone out there has reasonable, credible information, please share. We are in shock.

igor said...

Anyone please explain to me why are mainstream media and local autorities rabidly protecting islam and baltantly lying about its nature? What is happening?? What financial & poltical interests are behind this disgusting menace??

The Quoran and the actions of this cult are extremely clear. Who's behind the twisted ABC special? Why these police officers stepping on the US constitution? What's happening? Who's promoting this??

If anyone out there has reasonable, credible information, please share. We are in shock.

Jack Palkovic said...

I called the police department and was told by an officer that there is an ordinance in Dearborn that makes it illegal to pass out any paper with information on it to people anywhere in Dearborn without a permit. Wow

MovingfromDearborn said...

I live in Dearborn, Michigan very near the areas these gentlemen visited during the 2010 festival. Don't be shocked by the blatent abuse of police power and vast array of city ordinances blatently contradicting The United States Constitution. You think your experiences within the city limits have been difficult and bazaar try RESIDING here lol.
The police are called to my home on a daily basis because my neighbors throw footballs, basketballs, rocks,garbage, etc., at or on my property. I'm called an infidel, cracker, honkey, white trasher,etc. My once beautiful green plush lawn is currently a dirt square. Quoting my "infidel" christian neighbor "an older man in traditional muslim garb was pouring bleach on your lawn."
Apparently I asked the wrong guys kid not to litter on my street. I try NOT to contact the police when I am victimized these days because their response is I'm the problem. All the neighbors don't "like" me so I must be the problem. Today I was told the next time I call police to come to my block they will take ME to jail lol. I've been spit at screamed at fireworks are shot at my house on a nightly basis there is soooooo much more but I'm positive you are tired of reading this book.
My point is you are fighting an extremely difficult uphill battle in this city. Unless you have unlimited means put forth your wonderful message in areas you can make a difference. Your playing with fire in Dearborn, Michigan. I know you are in town this weekend please be careful your not safe. Remember you are being mistreated by people in this area because they don't have the Lord in their life. Finally, I'm pretty sure the young girl who provided me with a Quran gratis earlier today on my walk home from the gas station didn't have a permit!

jeom said...

Just surprised how many policemen showed up. Was it 7 or 8? That's overkill. In Britain, at most, there would have been four.

Rukiah Ali said...

Thats impossible usually people like that don't defend islam.