Saturday, June 19, 2010

Acts 17 In Dearborn City Jail

*****Click here for a complete summary of our experience in Dearborn.*****

Yes, you heard it here first, folks. David and I, along with Negeen and Paul Rezkalla, were arrested and spent last night in jail. It is a long story which we will elaborate in full detail when we can, and we will post footage when the police give us back our cameras.

But to take the edge off your curiosity, here are some basics: Paul, David, Negeen, and I went to the festival to see and comment on the situation. Thankfully, we recorded every second of our activity at the festival. At one point, we came across a festival volunteer who seemed to take issue with us simply being at the festival. We could tell he had a problem with us, and so we asked "What are we doing wrong?" He said "Put the camera and microphone down, and I'll tell you." (By the way, there was more to this conversation, but when you see the footage, I think you'll see I'm being fair in my summary.) So I obliged, handing the microphone to David and asking him to not record the man. I then approached him and said "No camera, no mic, tell me what we're doing wrong", he said "Get away from me!" (or something to that effect). Again, I obliged, and walked away.

About 20 minutes later, to shouts and cheers of "Allahu Akbar!" we were all being led away from the festival in handcuffs. From the brief description we were given by the police of why we were being arrested, it sounds like the festival volunteer said we surrounded him and didn't give him an opportunity to leave, thereby "breaching the peace." This is as blatantly false as an accusation can get.

Last year, security lied about us and we got kicked out of the festival. We had it all on tape, so we were able to vindicate ourselves. This year, a volunteer lied about us, and we got thrown into jail. But when we get our footage back, we'll be able to vindicate ourselves again.

Here's what gets me though: people are getting very offended by the simple fact that we're taking cameras with us wherever we go. But if it weren't for the cameras, no one would know the truth of what is happening in Dearborn!

And what is happening in Dearborn? Don't get me wrong, I met a ton of awesome people at the festival today. But it seems like every time we come to this city, we encounter people who would lie at the drop of a hat to advance their own agendas, regardless of whether they will be proven false! I have been many places throughout this country, but never have I seen such a predilection for deception. What is it about this specific city that makes people act this way?

I am worried about Dearborn, my friends, and I'm worried about our nation. Let us be in prayer. More details to come as our journey unfolds.

Update

Apparently someone took pictures of us right we were getting arrested. We're getting the pictures right now. I'll post them as they come.


Me preaching the Gospel to people who had approached me and asked me to share my message with them.

David filming me from afar

David being put in handcuffs and led away

Update 2

Here is a statement from the gentlemen who took these photos:

I, Richard (last name removed for privacy) from Dallas, TX, was a witness to the events that took place at about 9:15pm-9:25pm on June 18, 2010 in Dearborn, MI at the Arab Festival. Here it is as i saw it:

I saw Nabeel Qureshi in the midst of a crowd of about twenty teenagers and young adult Muslims. David Wood and Paul were video taping Nabeel and the young Muslims dialog. Police officers, about four, were present acting as a shield protecting Nabeel from a crowd closing in tighter. The entire dialog seemed very peaceful and productive. i did not hear the police officers tell Nabeel or David to stop. The conversation with Nabeel began to wind down. I was able to speak with Nabeel a little to encourage him. At this point the crowd began to break up and the police also walked away. Another young adult Muslim began conversing with Nabeel and the crowd began to come back together. Finally, the police officers returned, about five or six of them, and surrounded David, Nabeel, and Paul. I thought they were going to protect Nabeel and the other brothers, but without warning, the police, rather gently but still forcibly, began taking hold of the camcorders. They arrested all three of the men and escorted them away at the sound of applause by some of the surrounding Muslims.

Update 3

We'll be on Jesus or Muhammad tonight at 11, discussing the arrest at Dearborn.

209 comments:

1 – 200 of 209   Newer›   Newest»
Laura said...

I am sorry about what happened to you guys in Dearborn, though you should know better than to disrupt a festival.

Nevertheless, I do not think that jailing you guys (even for a night) was justified for trying to disrupt a private festival that was taking place on (as far as I know) public grounds.
They should have let you off with a stern warning at the most, but hey - that's just me.

I wonder if Jesus would have behaved the same way you all did with the camera and the way you behaved in the festival.

Not insulting you or anything, but you should definitely ask yourself here, 'what would Jesus do?'. Would he have behaved the same way Nabeel did with the camera?

David Wood said...

Laura,

How did we "disrupt a private festival"? By being there (as thousands were)? By being Christian (as many are)? By preaching the Gospel (which we're commanded to do)? By recording (which many were)?

Please define what we did that was disruptive, and what we should have been sternly warned about.

And then read the Gospels and tell us what you think would happen if Jesus were to show up at the Dearborn Arab Festival.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Laura--

Thanks for your condolences. I do know better than to disrupt a festival, though, which is why I didn't disrupt it.

I made it a point to not talk to anyone unless they came to me first. If people first addressed me, then I would talk to them. Is that disruptive?

Please let me know what you think. Sincerely,
-Nabeel

The Fat Man said...

OH WOW, how is Nageen? Nabeel, David. Nabeel and Paul would of been together Nageen would of been sent to the Womans wing.

The Fat Man said...

I guess now we know why David wasn't on ABN

The Fat Man said...

Now I really wish I would of went. Could of brought my HTC EVO, I could of recorded the whole thing in 720P HD video, and streamed it live to the internet via the Qik App. I know I'm bragging :)

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Wow All my life I’ve read about folks being granted the privilege of suffering such indignities for the sake of the gospel but I never once thought it would happen in 2010 in the USA.


First of all, are you all right?

I’m especially concerned about Negeen. Was she interned with other prisoners? I can’t imagine what it would be like for such a young girl.

I’ve got a thousand questions Is this over? Will it end in court?

For now it’s time to rejoice.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
(Matthew 5:10-12)





And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, "'Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'-- for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus." And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
(Acts 4:24-31)

I'm praying for you guys

peace

Adam said...

"Crucified Men can preach The Crucified Christ"

Praise Lord Jesus Christ

Brother David, This Jail experience is similar to our Apostles of the Bible.

The Fat Man said...

Laura said...

"Not insulting you or anything, but you should definitely ask yourself here, 'what would Jesus do?'. Would he have behaved the same way Nabeel did with the camera?"

Laura you do realize that this Jesus meek and mild is the same YWHY that rained down fire and sulfar from YWHY in heaven.

So if Jesus where here today he would rebuke his disciples from using a camcorder?

So if Jesus was hear today he wouldn't have his disciples share the Gosple in public or private or where ever they are. I guess Jesus if he was hear today according to Laura would not of walked into a Synogouge or the Temple (if was still standing) and over turned the money changer tables.

Laura I guess when Jesus gave the great commision it would of went something like this in Laura's Gospel.

"Go and make disciples of all nations... but don't bring a camcorder cell phones or any recording device. Don't go to Muslim festivals on public land in a country that values freedom of speech and freedom or religion. Don't ask questions at said festivals if you do go. etc... etc..."

I'm glad that the real Jesus is not your Jesus meek and mild.

Apollos26 said...

Hi brother David, Nabeel and the other ones.

I still don't get it:ng against

If islam is THE greatest of all beliefs and the Quran is so superiour, that you can't criticize it, why then are they afraid of a hand full of christians?

Islam is to me like a person who calls himself the most powerful MMA Fighter on the world, but refuses to accept any contenders and fights.

We should deal with islam as the John of Damascus dealt with it.


God bless,

Apollos

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Good grief, does this effect the rest of your schedule in Dearborn?

I guess you guys could go national with this.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Hope our sister Negeen is ok, this is like being thrown straight into a New Testament situation.

Charis kai Eirene said...

No condolences here but rather congratulations on living up to the name of your ministry by the grace of God!

In the book of Acts, chapter 17, the apostles went into the synagogue to reason with the Jews, many of whom were converted as well as some of the Greeks in the city. The other Jews who were jealous of the ministry of the Christians gathered a mob together to lie about them before the city council, accusing them of "turning the world upside down."

Sound familiar?

Praise the Lord that you followed the biblical example and mandate to preach the truth about God and have been honored to be persecuted for the sake of the Name.

The Fat Man said...

Acts 5:41

The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

I wonder if we can get copies of Nabeel's and Davids Mug Shots.

minoria said...

That about many Muslims being fanatic is true.Reality.I hope Negeen specially is ok,but she must be,otherwise you would have said she wasn't.
I believe many Muslims(alot) freak out because they are INSECURE about their religion.

Elaine said...

Why do you come and and disrupt the peaceful festival in which many Christians have handed out literature for many years in a peaceful and respectful manner? For over 10 years I have observed Christians respecting the guidelines of the festival, purchasing a booth and freely handing out literature. I have seen many people come to Christ or begin to attend a Bible-believing Church through the ministry of the booths at the Arabic festival. Do you see any history of arrests among the Baptist church or the Alliance Church or now with Josh McDowell's group? Do you see anyone "persecuting" them for freely sharing their faith? Why do you make it sound like Dearborn is against Christians? Why do you come to break the peace and destroy the ministry of the local churches and outreaches who have poured their lives into sharing the Gospel with a hurting people trapped in Islam? Please forgive my perseption, but I can't but to answer you question regarding disrupting the peace. Can't you see how you walk challanging everyone and irritating them by filming? It's enough that it is you who made false impressions last year. Your presence distrupts the peace. Is that what Jesus called you to be? Is that how you are a light and salt to the community?
Wake up, brothers. I wish you know the extent of damage you are causing!

luis_25 said...

Praise the LORD because we know that if we are persecuted, being accused, and having all kinds of false things said against us is because the Spirit affirms we re Son`s of the Most High GOD and our reward in Heaven is wonderful. So let us preach the Jesus that condems all these false religion and bring the truth out.

qm said...

It's absolutely insane that you guys got arrested. What's highly frustrated though isn't that, but the first comment, the one my "Laura".

Being attacked from the outside is one thing, but being attacked from the inside is so much worst. I talk to people like Laura all the time and they are often the biggest hindrances to anything.

gsan said...

If what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), what I find most appalling is the police behavior of throwing people in jail on unsubstantiated accusations.

Matlin said...

Hello David and Nabeel,
I Praise God for all of you guys are safe. I would like you all please come to ABN at the Jesus or Mohammed marathon show, if possible, to explain what really happened- let the whole world know about the “peaceful religion” and their propaganda. My prayers and supports are with you.

Dusman said...

Please know that we appreciate your ministry and are praying for you!

Verumi said...

Much love to all of you. It takes courage to do what you do. Thank you. To God be the glory.

Be safe. My prayers are with you.

Fernando said...

I'm so proud aboutte whate you guys did for the glory off Christ...

Now, more than eber, courage actions likke the one you did is recquired to show the world the malignity off islam...

Will you really get your cameras back?

God bless...

DrOakley said...

I was informed of what happened as soon as the early show of Jesus or Muhammad? finished airing. We prayed for you all at that time.

As I consider what would have happened had Muslims been taken away in handcuffs to shouts of "Hallelujah!" I am once again struck with the massive difference in worldview and behavior between followers of Jesus and followers of Muhammad. Was there no Muslim there troubled in conscience at seeing such a travesty of justice? None who sit back and ask, "Wait---if we have the truth, why do we have to behave in this fashion?" One is truly left wondering.

Well, just remember, Nabeel and David, if you are claiming Romans 8:28 today---I TOLD YOU SO. :-)

james

Venchenza Settles said...

All I have to say is praise God. You were most certainly prayed over when I heard from James White via twitter that you guys were in jail. I watched your video of last years incident and it was very insightful for me. Who knew that Dearborn is the epic center of the Muslim community in America!? I sure didn't until last night. Thank you guys for waking me up and being obedient no matter what. Keep bringing the gospel and being obedient no matter what!

Ben said...

I'm sorry about all the ignorant people who are calling themselves "Christians" and are encouraging you to suppress the gospel. May you continue to do all things to glorify the name of Jesus Christ, and may the Lord continue to bless you in the declaration of His truth and love.

Lydia McGrew said...

I'm very disturbed that they took your cameras. That's the most disturbing thing about this. The second most disturbing thing is that the police arrested you immediately on their mere word without further questions. The third thing is that you were not given clear charges. Don't they always have to tell you the charges against you clearly as part of due process?

By the way--y'all should have pressed charges on the assault last year. I said so to some folks you guys know when I met them in November. I argued it rather passionately. I'm not saying it would have made things any different this year. Maybe it wouldn't. But you should have pressed charges when you definitely had the film and the advantage of public opinion. And it could have potentially been brought in as evidence this year on your behalf. God forbid you shouldn't get your film even back this year or find it erased when the police return your cameras. Now they have _you_ on the defensive with phony, lying charges brought against you.

God bless you and protect you at the hearing and everything.

Go Share Your Faith said...

Elaine,
Quote:
"Why do you come and and disrupt the peaceful festival in which many Christians have handed out literature for many years in a peaceful and respectful manner? "

What EXACTLY did they do that was disruptive?

Lothair Of Lorraine said...

I am Catholic, and I am very interested to see how the bishops respond. If the Church doesn't take action, I'll leave Rome.

GreekAsianPanda said...

Awful. Just awful. May the one true God, YHWH, bless you guys. I praise God that nothing worse happened and that you guys are okay.

Can't wait to see the videos.

mirele said...

I have to wonder what David and Nabeel were doing to get arrested, considering that pastor George Saieg won his case at the Sixth Circuit to hand out pamphlets at the festival.

http://www.freep.com/comments/article/20100618/NEWS02/100618070/Christian-pastor-allowed-to-distribute-literature-at-Arab-festival-in-Dearborn

I suspect the truth is not exactly as David and Nabeel would have it. It would help if we could see the police reports.

Reformed said...

Elaine,

You have to go to them. You can not sit back and hope they come to your booth. If you have some come by and talk how many more could you engage if you actually went to them.

They were not being offensive or disruptive. They were taking the Gospel to the people that need to hear it.

mkvine said...

FORGET Laura, Congratulations guys! God bless you all for standing up for the Truth and for being witnesses of our Risen Savior Jesus Christ. It's a shame that Muslims have to use deceptive tactics to advance their cause. One has to wonder that if they have the truth as they claim they do, then why are they lying to the police? I think they were scared of you guys for being true disciples of Jesus. Even the demons tremble when they hear the name of Jesus. By the way, if something is happening on public grounds, it is no longer a "private" festival, as far as I know. I pity Laura for sympathizing with the side of deception, manipulation and intimidation. I will pray for her. Keep up the good work guys, you are in my prayers!

Adam said...

Praise The Lord

"Crucified Men can preach The Crucified Christ"

Bro. David and Nabeel this incident for many Christian may be sad. But For me this is a joyful News.

Very few people in the world get this opportunity of getting persecuted Like our Lord and his disciples and apostles.

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

Nabeel and David (and Negeen too),

We in my home are praying for your safety and for the bad behavior of that man who lied about you to be exposed for the world to see. We know what is going on, so take heart and know that you are not alone. Besides the Lord who is with you always, our thoughts and prayers are for you as well.

Elaine wrote: Why do you come to break the peace and destroy the ministry of the local churches and outreaches who have poured their lives into sharing the Gospel with a hurting people trapped in Islam? Please forgive my perseption, but I can't but to answer you question regarding disrupting the peace. Can't you see how you walk challanging everyone and irritating them by filming? It's enough that it is you who made false impressions last year. Your presence distrupts the peace. Is that what Jesus called you to be? Is that how you are a light and salt to the community?

Elaine, they did not disrupt the peace. "Irritating" some festival attenders by simply having a videocamera is not a crime nor is it a failure to be salt and light. In fact, having a camera is their only protection against the false witness of that man. If anything, the camera shows how people really act--Nabeel and David bring a little light to their festival, and what happens? The darkness is exposed.

Nabeel and David have done nothing wrong, and I forgive you for judging them unjustly. I entreat you to love your brothers as well as you love your enemies.

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

Booyah, Lydia. I love you!

Harper said...

according to the official website for this event, it is NOT a "private" event, and people of all nationalities and creeds are welcome: http://www.americanarab.com/

It reads:
Event: '15th Annual Dearborn Arab International Festival'
Festival
Date: Friday, June 18, 2010 At 09:00 AM
Duration: 2 Days
Contact Info:
Fay Beydoun (313) 945-1700
Email: fay.beydoun@americanarab.com
URL: http://www.americanarab.com/events-a-programs/business-development.html

Join us this weekend for the 15th Annual Dearborn Arab International Festival, June 18-20
Fourteen blocks on Warren Avenue (between Schaefer and Wyoming) will be transformed into a cultural celebration expected to draw over 300,000 people from across the country, Canada and the Middle-East. There is no cost to attend the festival, free parking and entertainment. "It is the most vibrant time of the year," said American Arab Chamber of Commerce Executive Director Fay Beydoun. "Every year more and more people of all races and cultures are joining us in celebrating our rich heritage. It also adds an economic boost to the local economy."
Highlights of the festival include 30-international food booths, large carnival, interactive children's stage, Arab merchandise, calligraphy, and bread making."

It does not say that cameras or audio recorders are not permitted. I wonder if anyone else of the 300,000 people there had a camera or a video recorder.....

Dragostea said...

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds..."

it's so easy for me to quote this verse but so hard to live it. but you guys are living it fully.

i just wanna say that i've been reading this blog for a while now and it's just amazing the passion you have for sharing the gospel with muslims...

respect...

Harris said...

Well, where do I begin? No, I won't be praying for you but I do hope you get fair justice. I don't know which religion is more self righteous and I hope all of you 'faithful' can find another venue to contest your opposing beliefs. There are lots of places in this world where you are killing each other in the name of your gods, so please find another place to fight. This issue deals with the right and freedom to photograph, not who has the best god.

The title of this article is perhaps indicative of a personal bias and it misses the point. The photographers and their subjects are simply people and the issue is simply the right to photograph.

nathan.wilkes said...

As I was reading this I realised that the other side was not being presented but you seemed to be in the right.

When I got to the end of the article and saw you were preaching one religion in a festival for people of another I know that you were clearly disrupting the peace.

Would you allow a muslim to come to a christian festival you were helping organise just so they could start preaching the quran? Of course you wouldn't, you would obviously be uncomfortable with that.

And yet you are completely oblivious to the problems when you do it. It doesn't matter if your holy book says you should do it, its a big world out there and the majority of it don't believe your book is right so don't go around thinking yourself a class above everyone else where your beliefs are the law and everyone elses beliefs are just silly fairy tales.

Have some respect for other beliefs and don't attend that festival again if you are just going to preach. They believe what they believe for the same reasons you believe what you do and treating them as if they follow what they do on a whim is just insulting.

David Wood said...

Nathan,

This was not a Muslim festival. It was an Arab festival, and many of the Arabs there are Christian. Apart from that, everyone is invited to the festival. We were arrested for having dialogue with the Muslims. I'm not sure how you could possibly justify that.

JIBBS said...

Laura:

You say your sorry that they got arrested, but also that they should have known better than to disrupt a private festival. Yet the festival is not private. So where does that leave you??

So, maybe it's the utilization of recording equipment that was so heinous. What law can you point to that forbid the use of the camera?

Or maybe it wasn't the camera, but the behavior of Nabeel. What exactly about the way "he behaved" do you refer to??

Sincerely,
JIBBS

joe said...

Nathan, this is not a MUSLIM festival. It is an Arab Cultural Festival and open to the public. I was there last year when David and Nabeel encountered festival security and were roughed up. The actions of those at the festival are unwarranted. David and Nabeel did nothing wrong except being where they were not wanted.

I don't know what city you live in, but if you were to venture into an area of your city where street thugs rule, perhaps to visit a relative, and you were carted off by police for being where you were not wanted, would you protest or simply throw up your arms and say with a sigh, "I shouldn't have been there."

BluePenny said...

@nathan.wilkes-->>>When I got to the end of the article and saw you were preaching one religion in a festival for people of another I know that you were clearly disrupting the peace.<<<

It is NOT a religious festival. It is an *ethnicity* festival, specifically Arab. Ethnic festivals of various kinds are very common during SE Michigan summers.

Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey Nathan,

a couple of points.

Arab is not a religion it’s an ethnic group.

In America we don’t have religious festivals on the public square we have them on private property.

In America we have the right to preach on public property it's called free speach.

It's the same right that allows you to come to a Christian website and denigrate a command of our religion (to preach the Gospel) and the example of our Jesus and his apostles who preached ofetn to hostile audiences at their religious gatherings.

It would be nice if you at least tried to do what you are telling others to do

Laura said...

wNabeel and David,

The way you approached the people at the Why Islam boot was totally un-Christlike.

Jesus would not have walked up and started asking probing questions in a loud and brash manner.
And when they told you to turn off the camera, Jesus would have turned off the camera and calmly talked to the man.

He would NOT have started saying things like 'freedom of speech is being compromised!', 'Sharia in the USA!', etc., while keeping the camera on even as an entire mob of people surrounded the cameraperson, asking her to turn it off.

And while we're on the topic, exactly where does Jesus give his support for freedom of speech in the Bible? I always thought of it more as a virtue of the secular Enlightenment, not Christianity.

Laura said...

Nabeel and David,

And it's not just me who is saying this. Most of my friends, who are mostly Christians, found your behavior objectionable.

It seemed more paparazzi-like then Christlike, though I know that's an oversimplification.

What's also un-Christlike is your behavior on YouTube.
Apparently, some people have put forth a legitimate challenge to you guys and you have responded by insulting the makers of the challenge and banning anyone who even mentions it on your wall.

I hope you realize that actions like these make Christians look bad and scared in front of the Muslim audience.
It implicitly shows defeat.

You Who said...

Keeping you in my prayers...

yohannes said...

It’s sad to hear that you guys were in jail whist we were watching the world cup,

Anyway, hope you guys get your camera back in one peace, so that you guys could do another video entitled:

SHARIA IN AMERICA: THE APPLICATION OF ISLAMIC LAW

1moremuslim said...

Pr. Wood wants us to believe that he just wanted to preach the Gospel, he has no other intention! Come on! You wanted a show, you got it. You were looking for that Muslim who would behave badly and catch it on camera. One who wants to preach the Gospel can carry literature, not video cameras. Why go to an Arab festival where Muslims and Christians coexist in peace?
If you look at the Middle East, the first cause of Christian-Muslim clashes comes primarily from the western Christians, Invading countries like Iraq where Christians were in Peace, you can't even spare festivals.
I don't think that the Police sent you to jail for just attending the festival, it's the US Police, not the Iranian Police.
There are millions of Atheists in USA, why don't you preach to them. There are tribes in Latin America who have never heard about the God Jesus, why don't you go and save them from being sent to Hell generation after generation for no reason other than living in the Amazon.

mkvine said...

Elaine,

I don't appreciate your baseless assertions. You say that they were "disrupting" the festival, but you NEVER explained what exactly they were doing to disrupt it (baseless accusation). I find it amazing that people like Elaine and Laura will side with the group that suppresses freedom of speech in a democratic country. Also, as many people have already pointed out, this was a PUBLIC festival! So please don't bring up this "they disrupted a private event" cop-out, its very disingenuous accusation. Finally, I'm tired of people like Laura and Elaine complaining about you guys preaching the Gospel. First of all, you guys were approached with questions, not the other way around. Second of all, Jesus commanded us to preach the Gospel, so I guess Laura and Elaine want us to disobey Jesus. Third of all, if its a public setting, Muslims have NO RIGHT to prevent anyone from sharing their religious views. Fourth of all, this wasn't a Muslim festival, it was an ARAB festival. Yet, we see Muslims doing Dawah to people without them being stopped. Double standards anyone? So Muslims can preach at the festival, but Christians can't, that is religious discrimination. I am appalled that people like Laura and Elaine would support this kind of discrimination. Well, I'm glad that David, Nabeel, Nageen and the rest of you guys are willing to stand up for freedom of religion and freedom of speech. May God Bless you guys tremendously, you are doing a wonderful work in sharing the Gospel.

Stephen Tilson said...

I rejoice with you, brothers and sisters, that you were found worthy to suffer for the Gospel of Christ.

If things continue to go the way they have been with regard to the increasing influence of Islam in our culture, I think that many more of us will be found similarly worthy in the years to come.

Lydia McGrew said...

I hope you guys have a really, really good lawyer and are prepared to fight this to the mat.

And please, please listen: If there are charges you can file in the other direction (false arrest, or libel against lying witnesses, or anything of the kind), _file_ them. All that happened last year when you didn't file charges was that a message was sent to the Muslim community: "You can do anything you want to these Christian missionaries and get away with it." This year, they took it one step further. This is not good for the cause of Christ and Christian missions in the Dearborn area. The rule of law is one of the only protections for Christians, Christian missionaries, and would-be Christian converts. If the rule of law is not asserted, it would be better not to challenge the Muslim community on this at all, because all it does is to reinforce the message that they are in power.

I just feel sick and sad at heart thinking about the fact that they got away with that last year (with just a bit of bad publicity on Youtube that they don't care about and overall a sense of power and conquest that they _do_ care about) and now are getting away with turning the tables and charging you guys.

I cannot say how strongly I sympathize with and cheer for what you are doing and how very deeply I admire your bravery, but please--you must _fight_ sharia.

Stan said...

Dear David,

some days ago we contributed some money to your website, I believe it was for your trip to Dearborn. We are shocked about the outrageous treatment, you and your team had to endure. I wouldn't be surprised, if something like that had happened in Europe, but in the United States? We pray for you and your team, that you are save in the future. By the way, we enjoy watching your excellent debates on "Jesus or Mohammed". Your knowledge and ability to communicate are just admirable and your courage as well. God bless you.

Best regards

Nina and Stan

kate said...

HI Nathan-
You said, "When I got to the end of the article and saw you were preaching one religion in a festival for people of another I know that you were clearly disrupting the peace."

Ok first of all they were not preaching a religion. Christianity is a relationship w/ Christ Jesus, not a religion. Some day more ppl will understand that.

You said,
"Would you allow a muslim to come to a christian festival you were helping organise just so they could start preaching the quran? Of course you wouldn't, you would obviously be uncomfortable with that."

Of course they will allow them to preach the quran, unless it was a private festival, and the Arab festival wasn't private. Let me tell u something Nathan, Have u heard of this quote "A robust faith welcomes questions but a weak faith avoids them."

You can bring all ur teachings abt the quran to a Christian event, if the person ur talking to is strong in their faith GUESS WHAT!!! They will look at u and say, naa Jesus is better.

May u come to know the Lord Christ Jesus, who loved u so much, and became a mere human to die for u so that u may have eternal life. Jesus bless!

kate said...

David, Nabeel, and my sister in Christ Nageen, Thank you for spreading the Gospel to the lost.
Nabeel, when the came to u and asked u abt the Bible then that says right their that they are starving for the truth. When u said that they were walking up to u and asking u abt the Bible it made my day!!!
I'm so glade we still live in a country where the Gospel can be preached without being shot, unlike many middle eastern countries.
But honestly U guys need to sue for ur right and freedom or something, cuz this is America, the country wich was founded on Christian principles NOT islam principles. I'll pray for ur safety and for the truth to shine!!!

P.S cant wait for the video,

Sir Brass said...

David,

These people are failing to come to your defense because, sadly, Islam has already been successful in causing those infected by secularism and post-modernism to be cowed into Dhimmitude.

I'm trying to figure out a way to let the folks at Ten-Four Ministries (they are an outreach of and to police officers) about this. Their brother officers have been complicit in this outrage, so I'm sure they'd like to know about it.

Keep doing what you're doing and don't cease to be bold. When real Christians fall to the temptation to just let the opposition walk over them for the sake of not making waves, then the name of Christ is the thing most damaged. Those commenting here who are claiming the name of Christ and yet telling you that you disrupted the peace and pointing fingers saying, "Would Jesus have done this?" Ought to be very ashamed for their misrepresentation of their Lord and for the derision they're showing a faithful brother in Christ.

Praying for you, brothers.

~Jamie

mirele said...

As I thought, it's not exactly as David and Nabeel would have you to believe.

http://www.freep.com/article/20100619/NEWS02/100619014/4-arrested-at-Dearborn-festival

At the very end of the article, it says:

Wood and Qureshi, who repeatedly claim that Islam is violent, said they were being harassed.

But the Rev. Haytham Abi Haydar, a Christian evangelical convert with Arabic Alliance Church in Dearborn, said that Acts 17 Apologetics caused problems at last year's Arab festival.

"They put cameras in their faces and were very antagonistic, " Abi Haydar told the Free Press.


When your co-religionists disagree with what you were doing, you might want to think twice about what you're doing.

Shawn White said...

Laura wants to know "What would Jesus Do?"

Uh, he would leave heaven, come to earth, and we would respond by nailing him to a cross.

At least Nabeel, David, Paul, and Negeen only ended up in jail.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" Luke 13:34

Haecceitas said...

Lydia McGrew,

I must admit my ignorance of the relevant US laws, but is it for some reason too late for David and Nabeel to take the 2009 events to court?

Haecceitas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fifth Monarchy Man said...

Hey mirele,

you said:..........

When your co-religionists disagree with what you were doing, you might want to think twice about what you're doing.

I say........

Let’s see if I understand you.

A particular pastor feels that a certain style of evangelism is rude so you feel it’s OK to arrest folks for practicing it?

I'm sorry but you will find Christians who disagree with every method of spreading the Gospel if you look hard enough.

If we followed your advise we would have to stop all evangelism period.

Perhaps that is what you want.

Whether their style is “antagonistic” is not the question

The question for Americans is

“Is what they did illegal?”

The article did not provide any evidence that it was

The question for Christians is

Is "Are their methods effective?"

The fact that two of those arrested are former Muslims is evidence that it is.

peace

Nora said...

mirele-

Please be aware that a LOT of arabic Christians have a very different mindset for dealing with Islam than Americans. Being a minority and a persecuted minority for so long has a profound effect on one's thinking.

Bear this in mind when judging another Christian's actions from afar.

Ryan said...

To Mirele,

Abi Haydar may have been converted to Christianity but that doesn't mean that he didn't lie. We're all humans even Christians, we all lie. Trust me I know Nabeel Qureshi on a personal level and I know David Woods too. They wouldn't on any level provoke any sort of problem. They are amazingly strong Christians and would NEVER do that.

To Negeen, Nabeelski, and David,

I'm happy to hear they only made you all stay just one night. I saw the video of you all being arrested and the heckler yelling behind you as well as the clapping as you all were taken away in handcuffs. You all are doing amazing things and just like Christ you all are suffering. Nabeelski we and the youth can't wait for you to get back to Virginia and you are in our prayers. God Bless you all!

- Ryan

minoria said...

Hello Mirele

We have the video of what happened last year,the Muslims who are claiming Nabeel and David did something wrong are LYING,see the video.

I debate Muslims on a forum and I am SURE the ones making the accusations against Nabeel and David are similar to the ones I debate:PRO-HAMAS,PRO-TERRORIST.Not all Muslims but a certain kind...the kind that LIE for propaganda purposes,for Hamas,Hizbullah,etc.

You don't know that mentality,you have never met them,and there are ALOT of them.Not all Muslims,but a certain number.Don't believe them,Mirele,they tell the police any lie due to their evilness,they are evil,they have one standard for Muslims,another for non-Muslims.

TAKE A TEST
Ask Muslims about Hamas and Hizbullah,you will soon find some who support them.They will invent all sorts of excuses for saying it's ok to kill Jewish civilians,men,women and children.THOSE are the same kind that tell lies like:"David and Nabeel were insulting us,etc."DO THE TEST,Mirele.You will see I tell the truth.

Nakdimon said...

Nabeel, Nageen, Paul, David... WELL DONE. Keep up the good work. God bless the labour of your hands.

Nakdimon said...

1moremuslim wrote: Pr. Wood wants us to believe that he just wanted to preach the Gospel, he has no other intention! Come on! You wanted a show, you got it. You were looking for that Muslim who would behave badly and catch it on camera. One who wants to preach the Gospel can carry literature, not video cameras. Why go to an Arab festival where Muslims and Christians coexist in peace?

1moremuslim, Nabeel and David wanted dialogue and answers to their questions about Islam, which is something muslims seem to be terrified to provide. They were not looking for that muslims who would behave badly, they were looking for that crowd that would rebuke that one muslim that behaved badly. All they got was a mob of muslims that behaved badly and applauded the silencing of those that ask the tough questions about Islam and call it to account.

If you look at the Middle East, the first cause of Christian-Muslim clashes comes primarily from the western Christians, Invading countries like Iraq where Christians were in Peace, you can't even spare festivals.

You guys should come out of the seventh century bubble that you are in and stop equating everything that comes from the West with Christianity or Christians. Christianity didn’t “invade Iraq”. Get your facts straight. There are no “crusaders” anymore. They have long flown. Secondly, the first cause of clashes between Muslims and Christians is your false book, the Quran, that calls us, Jews and Christians, out, not the other way around. If your false book would have just minded it’s business and wouldn’t have bothered us (YES! Your book constantly pokes its finger in our chest) and just went about being wrong about almost every single thing it addresses, we wouldn’t be in the situation we are in now between Muzzies and Christians. It is because your camp went about killing everything it came across that wouldn’t submit to its vile regime (yes that’s how your religion spread according to your own sources) we are in the situation right now.

Tabari 9:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid out to collect taxes with an army of 400 and ORDERED HIM TO INVITE PEOPLE TO ISLAM BEFORE HE FOUGHT THEM. If they were to respond and submit, he WAS TO TEACH THEM THE BOOK OF ALLAH, THE SUNNAH OF HIS PROPHET, AND THE REQUIREMENTS OF ISLAM. If they should decline, THEN HE WAS TO FIGHT THEM."
[So people were to submit before they would even know what Islam is about! And if they wouldn’t submit, they were killed. No ifs ands or buts.]

Sahih Muslim: Chapter 24.Book 20.Number 4609 "The Messenger said: 'DO NOT TAKE THE QUR'AN ON A JOURNEY WITH YOU, for I am afraid lost it would fall into the hands of the enemy.' Ayyub, one of the narrators in the chain of transmitters, said: 'The enemy may seize it AND MAY QUARREL WITH YOU OVER IT.'"
[Like I said, people wouldn’t even get the chance to learn about Islam. Submit or feel our wrath was the message.]

I don't think that the Police sent you to jail for just attending the festival, it's the US Police, not the Iranian Police.
There are millions of Atheists in USA, why don't you preach to them. There are tribes in Latin America who have never heard about the God Jesus, why don't you go and save them from being sent to Hell generation after generation for no reason other than living in the Amazon.

Errr… God doesn’t send people to hell for just “living in the Amazon”, he sends them to hell for this small thing called… sin… you know… sin… which Allah has ordained for you to commit, but will punish you for doing?

And when We desire to destroy a city, WE COMMAND ITS MEN WHO LIVE AT EASE, AND THEY COMMIT UNGODLINESS THEREIN, then the Word is realized against it, and We destroy it utterly. S. 17:16

Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6421: Verily Allah has fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he OF NECESSITY MUST COMMIT (or there would be no escape from it). (see also Number 6422)

Cheers.

Sam said...

Laura, just to refute your assertion that Jesus would have turned off the camera if he was asked notice what Jesus did when the lawyers said he was offending them:

"One of the lawyers answered him, 'Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also.' And he said, 'WOE TO YOU LAWYERS ALSO! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers." Luke 11:45-46

It is obvious from this passage that Jesus WOULD NOT HAVE TURNED OFF THE CAMERA. it seems that you don't know Jesus all that well so i advise you to stop presuming to be speaking on his behalf.

Jacob said...

@ "Laura" - How would Jesus have been treated at the event, regardless of how He acted? Jesus would have been hated even if He spoke not a word.

His mere presence is an affront to unregenerate men of all stripes, as unsaved men are bent on living in disobedience to God and the presence of God the Son among them infuriates them regardless of their preferred false religious or secular belief system.

It reminds them that they fall short when they try to earn salvation with their own deeds and that only He offers a satisfactory payment for our sin.

Also, man wants to do things his own way, disregarding his Creator and that Creator's will for his life. Jesus reminds him of the law of God that he is disobeying, even as He perfectly obeyed that law.

Jesus doesn't make self-righteous people feel good (including those who think they're going to heaven their way or by following a man-made system of ritual, rules, etc).

The only people who are happy to see Jesus are those whom He has redeemed, forgiven and cleansed of their eternal sin-debt.

Anthony Rogers said...

Mirele said: When your co-religionists disagree with what you were doing, you might want to think twice about what you're doing.

When our "co-religionists" disagree with us over preaching the Gospel as Christ commanded and in a country that has always believed it to be our God-given right to do so, we really ought to ask ourselves if they are being faithful to the Lord they profess to believe in and whether or not they really cherish our God-given, constitutionally recognized freedoms.

mkvine said...

I find it somewhat suspicious that these so-called "Christians" (i.e. Laura, Elaine and Nathan) do not have a profile to view. Are they hiding something, maybe their true identity??? Hmm, I guess we'll have to just keep wondering... :-)

JIBBS said...

1moremuslim:

We will preach on every street corner, from every rooftop, the Name that is above all names: JESUS CHRIST.

We will preach JESUS CHRIST to all men, including you.

Repent and believe the Gospel, for by no other Name will you be saved.

The Armchair Theologian said...

I wonder what would happen if, say, a group of 100 Christians went along with Nabeel and David next year and engaged in dialogue?

Would all 100 get arrested? I wonder?

Saint and Sinner said...

David,

Next time, wear hidden cameras (though I don't know how much they cost).

Also, it might be wise to bring other Christians along who will observe things from a distance (also with the hidden cameras). The combined evidence will ensure proper legal grounds for filing lawsuits against the city.

It will also take away any legal grounds for charging you with being disruptive simply for having a camera.

Just some thoughts.

Turretinfan said...

When "co-religionists" say that Christians should not preach the gospel, we must seriously ask ourselves whether we should treat them as part of the true religion that worships the God of the Holy Scriptures.

The Berean Search said...

"Not insulting you or anything, but you should definitely ask yourself here, 'what would Jesus do?'."

Laura, Jesus would share the Gospel with the people of Dearborn even if you and other think it's "impolite" and even if it meant going to jail.

I know this will sound gruff and abrupt but you are not only insulting David, Nabeel, Negeen, and Paul Rezkalla, you are insulting the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul and the Disciples were stoned, beaten, jailed and killed for the sake of the Gospel. Nabeel says the group violated no laws, and I believe him. Please examine whether or not your attitude of this situation is Biblical.

The Fat Man said...

Nabeel, David, Nageen what were the charges? Is it simple disordely conduct or was it something more serious like inciting to riot?

The Berean Search said...

"When I got to the end of the article and saw you were preaching one religion in a festival for people of another I know that you were clearly disrupting the peace."

nathan.wilkes,

It's an ARAB festival, not a MUSLIM festival. There are Arab Christians you know. Please think a little more logically before you say things like what I quoted above.

Royal Son said...

I wonder what would happen if a journalist came to cover the goings on in Dearborne. Maybe that is what it's going to take to get this place sorted out.

The Berean Search said...

mirele,

"Wood and Qureshi, who repeatedly claim that Islam is violent, said they were being harassed."

Having an opinion that Islam is violent and stating it publicly is not against the law. If other people can't deal with David and Nabeel's right to their own opinion and freedom to express it the problem lies with those individuals not David and Nabeel.

"But the Rev. Haytham Abi Haydar, a Christian evangelical convert with Arabic Alliance Church in Dearborn, said that Acts 17 Apologetics caused problems at last year's Arab festival."

I've seen the video footage of David and Nabeel being assaulted last year, and the security guards blatantly lying. The "problem" at last years festival was the security guards.

" "They put cameras in their faces and were very antagonistic, " Abi Haydar told the Free Press."

Filming at a public event is not illegal, not immoral, and not un-Christian. In point of fact, when you are dealing with people who will lie to prevent you from sharing the Gospel and send you to jail, copious filming is simply self-defense.

David and Nabeel, I hope you go back again next year. If you do, I plan to be right there by your side. I will begin saving money for the trip next month. In fact, I will try to bring 4 fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are prepared for evangelism with me!

joe said...

David, Nabeel:

Have you considered using the little ballpoint pen video cameras - the kind used in Iran last year to capture violence by officials? Might consider purchasing a couple as a backup for the next time your handheld cameras are confiscated. I will be surprised if your cameras are returned without the internal drive wiped clean.

The Fat Man said...

WOW, just got done watching the recap video on abn website. For people who just got out of jail, you guys look great, almost refreshed. A testimony to the spirit.

Michael LeFavour said...

Nabeel and David,

Would you allow others to join you next year? I live near and would like to walk with you.

Michael

lyndon420 said...

To Laura, Elaine, Nathan and others who claim "What would Jesus have done"? (if he really ever existed that is...let alone during present day when mankind probably needs him the most) How can you say how Jesus would have reacted? The bible (the greatest 'story' ever told) depicted Jesus as someone who stood up for what he believed in....am I correct? Unless more 'missing' verses of the bible mysteriously surface, chances are you won't come across any scriptures that would depict your savior as a spineless coward who would back down from supporters of probably the most violent religion (political front/facade) in the world.

You guys need to wake up and look at what is happening around the world (and apparently right under your noses) when it comes to muslims and their true intentions. Jesus isn't here to help you anymore (not physically anyway), but David, Nabeel, Negeen and others are probably the closest things we all have for 'saviors' because they are standing up for our rights as they are continually being persecuted... before the muslims can totally take over.

So what if they had video cameras? Maybe the muslims have something to hide? I've tried asking some simple questions to numerous muslims including my ex-wife who suddenly turned muslim when we separated after 14 years together, and each time I am either taken waaaay off topic or my questions were totally avoided. I grew up religious (didn't have much choice as a child) and questions were always welcomed...video camera or not. We were always taught to let others in regardless of what their beliefs were. David and others know how dangerous the muslim faith can be to infidels, so by taking recording equipment with them they are trying to protect themselves as well as trying to document some of the much needed answers to questions most of us have been waiting for. Without recorded evidence we have only hear-say...and I personally prefer to hear it from the horses mouth.

Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world, we have Adam, Eve and the rest of god's mistakes to thank for that, but I feel the need to thank 'who-ever' is responsible for putting people like David, Negeen, Nabeel, Pamella Geller etc in charge of standing up for our rights and freedoms.

(David and company) Good job guys...I'm with you in your fight for truth and knowledge.

kate said...

Hi Yohannes my brother not only in Christ Jesus but also Ethiopia.
I didnt know there was another Ethiopian on here, other than me. I'm very excited i found you. WoW! its a small world!
I'm gonna say hi to you in our language: David Wood, I'm only gonna say Hi, so hopefully u will post this......

Tadias, Indeminh? Etiopia naw yemitnorew weys America? Yihanin blog indate naw yagenehew?
Betam naw des yalen lala abesha bemagnete. Selam belen yehanin melikt sitagen. Iyesus yibariki. Tizita ibalalew.
I cant wait for ur reply. Jesus bless.

Guy DeWhitney: Heretic Crusader said...

"I find it somewhat suspicious that these so-called "Christians" (i.e. Laura, Elaine and Nathan) do not have a profile to view..."

I wondered about ther names, basic capitalized Western first names...they kind of stand out when virtually everyone else uses some kind of handle, except for joe who does not capitalize.

Lockheed said...

The 2nd Amendment still applies, this was protected speech. This is insanity.

nojizyatax said...

This is madness! I understand Nazi Germany more and more everyday as I see it coming to America. It is time to consult the TMLC and come up with a strategy for next year. This must NOT be allowed to stand.

Lydia McGrew said...

Haecitas--I don't know if it's too late to press last year's charges. I think it would probably _look_ strange to press them now. My strong impression is that the ministry took a definite decision last year not to press charges on that, and I wonder if the police would cooperate now if they changed course. Whether statutorily or in terms of a change in attitude by the police department or just a feeling that it's "too late now," my guess is that that window of opportunity on those assault charges from last year may well be closed. Which is, of course, a shame.

We must pray for them now that things have gone this direction. If additional people walk with them next year, they should be placed at a distance in multiple locations, not appear to be with them, and take video in a hidden way.

lyndon420 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mark Hunter said...

To the Christians who are rebuking Nabeel and the guys for "disrupting" the festival;

we need to remember that Paul was flogged and left for dead, so offensive was his preaching. The reality is, the Cross is an offense and a stumbling block.

I'm a former Jehovah's Witness and I'm appalled at how passive Christianity is with its evangelism, how Christians believe that setting up a booth and hoping "lost souls" stop by to pick up a leaflet is preaching the Gospel of Christ.

As a born-again Christian, I wrestle with my JW evangelistic training and wonder why more Christians aren't going into the "temple and market place" to preach Christ risen, rather than sitting in air conditioned churches hoping that the lost and broken will find their way to them.

I applaud the actions of the Act 17 evangelists and I pray that God will use them to cause more disruption and upset, particularly among the conservative Christians who get offended by them actually walking up to Muslims and sharing their belief that, no Jesus wasn't just another prophet and, no, your works can't save you.

mdr22315live said...

I hope you are planning on filing a suit against the police for false arrest and the city of Dearborn for obstructing your First Amendment Right to Freedom of Speech! Why would the police go along with these Muslims? What is happening to the citizens of our country who make up our police force..etc.. This has to be fought to bring attention to what the Muslims are doing in Dearborn! Please FILE SUIT!

Q said...

can you please systematically respond to yahya snow's reporting of the events? a lot of us are concerned and confused? nabeel - i appreciate the fact that you went to the festival and waited for people to approach you. that is what I believe Jesus would do. He is interested in dialogue. "He who has ears, let him hear". Paul as well. They were speaking to their own family (the Jews) in order to deliver them from the law and bind them to the Grace of God. Without knowing you, I hope and pray that it your intent. (I don't see why else you would be there). Where I am concerned - however - based on what little I've read and watched - is that I sense a confrontational spirit about you. (based on your first video where the man asked you to turn the camera off then you faced the camera and brazenly restated what the men requested - only to have them allow you to keep it on). This next question is not rhetorical - its intended for dialogue - what does 'Become all things to all people" mean to you? I don't know man...it sucks to be whisked into controversy... I just hope controversy is not your aim...but Love. From what I've read and seen, it seems fire is being fought with fire. I would love your side of the story (not in order to justify yourself) but to order to achieve clarity. I support you in so far that your motive is Love and nothing else... Too bad this has to go down over the internet, huh? It'd be way better in person...

Ransom said...

Laura said:

"Jesus would not have walked up and started asking probing questions in a loud and brash manner."

Jesus once sat down at a well and struck up a conversation with a Samaritan woman, thereby breaking two cultural taboos: men did not just start chatting with unaccompanied women, and Jews did not associate with Samaritans. Also, he made some rather pointed personal remarks about her sex life.

Is this the same Jesus you are talking about, or have Christians been stuck in a mistaken identity case for nearly two millennia?

Grace and Mercy said...

I was really sorry to read this.

I have a similar story with a slightly different ending.

I'm a Solicitor in Central England and was walking through Birmingham a year or so ago to find a group of christians who were preaching the gospel harassed by muslims.

The police had moved in and were asking the christians to move on, as one of the muslims had complained that they had been offended.

The muslims were shouting and clearly upsetting the christian workers who were quietly about to disperse.

I was amazed at what was going on and reminded the officers that there was still free speech in our country, and that simply moving the folks on was wrong - in fact unlawful. I asked one of the christians if he felt intimidated by the shouting and hostile nature of the muslims and he rightly said he did. At this one of the muslim chaps started to get quite aggressive. I reminded the officer that threatening words and behaviour was in fact a criminal offence ( a breach of the Public Order Act ) and that they might want to arrest those who were creating a breach of the peace - i.e. the muslims.

With this, the Muslims melted away, and I reminded the officers of their public duty - and the fact that we were still a christian nation.

In your situation I would fight fire with fire, though I well understand you taking a back seat and letting this pass. I believe as Christians, we should stand up to this idiocy, and make and leave a mark. Jesus was so enraged by what he saw in the temple, he went in and did something about it by turning the tables of the money lenders. It's not all gentle Jesus meek and mild.

I'm not an American attorney, but I do have a grasp of your system. If I were consulted here by you, I would immediately file a suit against the organisers of the festival, potentially the local police for acting so hastily (there appears to be a malicious prosecution and false imprisonment) and a suit against the individual who made the complaint in the first place. Nominate the proceeds to a charity that supports aid in an Arab third world country and let them know that.

Paul Nicholls, Birmingham, England.

Rafa-el_1 said...

Hello All,

is it just me or is laura, Elaine and nathan totally oblivious of the contents of the Bible? It seems that they hold to the view that Jesus never rebuked nor confronted anyone of a opposing view.

I won't call them ignorant cause the Bible prevent me from calling my bretheren ignorant.But I have to wonder : are the who they claim to be. Or is this just taqqiyah 101

1moremuslim said...

To Nakdimon
God sends people to hell for sins, of course, but as a good Christian preacher you would say that EVERY one have sinned right? therefore everybody is destined to HELL! But God provided a unique way of salvation that is Jesus, right? What is the guilt of those living in the Amazon, in a place so far, that they cannot hear about that Son of God who lived in Palestine? Therefore I concluded , they will be sent to Hell because they live in deep jungle.
You people are champions in misquoting Verses. I am not interested in debating scripture, I only stated FACTS. Jews Christians and Muslims were living in Peace, in the Middle east until some western Christians came there. The Jews lived in peace in Palestine until some European Zionists decided to take over the land. Christians in Iraq were happy in Iraq until Americans decided to intervene. There are no Christians invading Iraq? Have you ever been in a rally to protest the war, and call soldiers home? Please direct me to a news report saying that Christians made a rally against the war because it's not Christian. The real peace makers in the west are those leftists liberal, they are the ones active in peace not the Christians.

RazorsKiss said...

"can you please systematically respond to yahya snow's reporting of the events?"

There was a thorough response given to Snow's allegations on the ABN program last evening, by David. It should be out Monday.

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

Lockheed said: The 2nd Amendment still applies, this was protected speech.

Don't you mean 1st Amendment?

mirele said: co-religionists

That's an very odd way of referring to "fellow Christians," such that it makes me question the authenticity of said sentiment.

Mark Hunter said: As a born-again Christian, I wrestle with my JW evangelistic training and wonder why more Christians aren't going into the "temple and market place" to preach Christ risen, rather than sitting in air conditioned churches hoping that the lost and broken will find their way to them.

Hello Mark! I praise the Lord Jesus that He has found you! I do agree that believers need to be more proactive in sharing the Gospel, but many who do engage in evangelism know that there is a time and place for verbal proclamations. What is appropriate depends on who you're going to talk to. If to a friend or acquaintance, the Christian in America must first earn the right to be heard personally by showing themselves trustworthy and genuine. If in public, the Christian must choose the venue wisely and show impeccable manners. If among potential persecutors (such as an Arab festival), the Christian must be strong and let the Gospel offend while not making any personal offenses (as Nabeel has done).

My church has a ministry that seeks to have that marketplace encounter by hosting public discussions in places like coffee shops or meeting rooms at a brewery. These are pre-evangelistic, which means we don't push people to accept Christianity but at the same time challenge their worldviews and create meaningful dialogue. We also plan forums dealing with current events and have movie nights to do the same thing.

In addition, college ministries actively relate the Gospel to college students. Charities are also leading with the Gospel. Christians are always looking for creative ways to spread the Gospel.

I think you have some ideas too that you'd like to share about ways to evangelize. Please e-mail me some of your ideas. I'd love to hear them.

Anyway, back to the topic -- I'm not surprised that there are naysayers here who say they are Christian but criticize David and Nabeel. What just happened in Dearborn is an example of true persecution (even though it is light persecution with respect to what happens to believers in other countries), and we have the pictures and video to prove it. They were not being obnoxious, which is what posers like mirele are saying. And they were not wrong for just being there in the first place.

I'm down with the idea of getting 100 Christians to go up there next year to join David and Nabeel. 100 Christians with 100 cameras. And at this point, we wouldn't have to say a word.

ahwn 1 said...

My Dear Brthers
I am so proud of u all. You guys are full courage and truth. May the loving christ guide you and bless with immense courage and wisdom. You guys are a real inspiration for us in india. Continue u r work of our lord, we christians of india are with you.

1moremuslim said...

JIBBS:
"We will preach on every street corner, from every rooftop, the Name that is above all names: JESUS CHRIST."

Good if it's true, I have a challenge for you; go to a jewish festival and preach the Gospel. You won't do it. Why because you are hypocrites, you are most and foremost anti-Islam rather than pro-Christianity. That is why Christians never engage with jews. You would be sent to jail, and for more than a night. That is the challenge, do what you say, go to a jewish fest. I dare you!

mirele said...

Hey guys: Filming people in preparation for yet another slice and dice ambush video is NOT "apostolic witness."

mirele said...

I thought I'd add that I have lots of experience of SOLO picketing the so-called "church" of $cientology for its human rights abuses and I never got arrested. Never. Not even when I was carrying a sign that said, "Young. Pretty. DEAD." (about the death of Scientologist Lisa McPherson). Not even when I stood outside of the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles telling members of $cientology that other members have died unnaturally while in Scientology's care and custody.

Granted, I haven't picketed for some years now out of respect for my elderly parents, who asked me not to if I was going to live in the same town as them. (That's because $cientology has, in the past, picketed the homes of family members of picketers.) But I do have to wonder what you all were doing to get arrested. Again, seeing the police reports would be hugely helpful in figuring out where the truth actually lies. (And, yes, I'm well aware that police reports can be biased as well.)

Show us the police reports, why don't you? Oh yeah, and raw video would be VERY helpful. I'd also wonder if there's commentary from other Christians, not part of your group, about your actions.

goethechosemercy said...

What Grace and Mercy said.
The fact is that many, though not most, Arabs are Christians.
I'm under the impression that your Christianity is not what these people would suppress.
It is the fact that you understand Arabic culture and history along with Islam and can thus engage in some sophisticated apologetics.
I think you can validly argue that these people violated your rights under the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 14th Amendments.

goethechosemercy said...

1moremuslim:
There is nothing in your scriptures that tells you to deal fairly or even tell the truth to non-Muslims.
Your system gives you the right to enslave us, imprison us, threaten us, kill us, even dissect us with no expectation of retribution for wrong.
Your virtue is for members of your own community. It goes no further.
You are pleased to have rights, but will extend them not to others beyond the believing community.
When will you learn that Western liberal democracy has nothing to do with the rights you have and everything to do with the rights you give.
This is where Christianity and Democracy are knotted together, and no casually wielded sword will ever cut it apart.

mkvine said...

mirele,

You said "Hey guys: Filming people in preparation for yet another slice and dice ambush video is NOT "apostolic witness."

Oh yeah? Says who....you? Where do you get these definitive and authoritative statements from? Besides, what is wrong with filming on public grounds? Can you point to us anywhere in the law that filming in public is a crime? The ironic thing is that you accuse David and Nabeel of lying, but if it wasn't for the camera you would have gotten away with your false accusations. Good thing they had the camera so that they can show us what really happened. When they show us the video footage, I wouldn't be surprised if you changed your stance or if you wouldn't even comment anymore. Yep, when the truth hits you, you will slowly and discretely leave the scene without making any noises.

Regarding your comments about Scientology, I'm glad they didn't arrest you. You know what that shows? It shows that at least they have the common courtesy of not falsely accusing someone of a crime and thereby sending them to jail. In fact, it shows that they have more dignity, honor and respect than some of the Muslims present at Dearborn who falsely accused David, Nabeel, Nageen and Paul. Thank you for bringing them up, because there is truly no comparison between them and those people at Dearborn, which actually says a lot about the conduct of the Muslims.

Nakdimon said...

1moremuslim: Christians in Iraq were happy in Iraq until Americans decided to intervene. There are no Christians invading Iraq? Have you ever been in a rally to protest the war, and call soldiers home? Please direct me to a news report saying that Christians made a rally against the war because it's not Christian. The real peace makers in the west are those leftists liberal, they are the ones active in peace not the Christians.

Yeah keep rambling without any substance. Christians in Iraq lived in peace because Saddam trusted them over Muslims. The Shi’a Muslims were in living in misery and so did the Sunnis. And it was NOT because of the Christians, mind you. It was because of a Muslim. And when the “Christians” impeached the Muslim dictator, who were taking to the streets cheering for joy that they were finally delivered from their Muslim dictator? Correct, the Muslims. Then when those “Christians” tried to build the country up with the Muslims that were willing to put in the effort, who worked against that build up, blowing up mosques, market places, government buildings, killing tons of people during the building up process? Weren’t Christians! That were MUSLIMS. Yet you keep blaming those wretched Christians, right?

Nakdimon said...

1moremuslim: “God sends people to hell for sins, of course, but as a good Christian preacher you would say that EVERY one have sinned right? therefore everybody is destined to HELL! But God provided a unique way of salvation that is Jesus, right? What is the guilt of those living in the Amazon, in a place so far, that they cannot hear about that Son of God who lived in Palestine? Therefore I concluded , they will be sent to Hell because they live in deep jungle.”

Even then you are still wrong. Since they aren’t going to hell for living in the amazon since that would automatically mean that them not living in the Amazon have guaranteed their salvation. This is nonsense. But at least we have a guarantee that salvation is through the Son of God. Allah gives you NONE! You, even as a muslim, are delivered to the whims of Allah, if he has decreed for you to make it into Paradise or not.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 593: Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle, the truthful and truly-inspired, said, "Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into him. And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an ARM-BREADTH DISTANCE BETWEEN HIM AND THE FIRE, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only A CUBIT OR TWO BETWEEN HIM AND PARADISE, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it."

So even being a pious Muslim you don’t know your destiny and you may labor yourself to death your whole life, but if Allah has written for you that you should not make it to Paradise, then you will not make it, period! At least Christians are making the effort to reach those in the Amazon by sending messengers to them with the Gospel. Your camp doesn’t even bother. So instead of criticizing my beliefs, what remedy do you have for these people in the Amazon if you would finally reach them?

You people are champions in misquoting Verses.

Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black! We have about 50 videos on Jesus or Muhammad episodes on abnsat.com to prove the exact opposite of what you have just claimed. In the meantime, we are waiting for the Deen Show to provide us with the opportunity to call in when they butcher our texts and our teachings to make your religion look good.

I am not interested in debating scripture, I only stated FACTS. Jews Christians and Muslims were living in Peace, in the Middle east until some western Christians came there. The Jews lived in peace in Palestine until some European Zionists decided to take over the land.

Take over the land? Since you claim to state “facts”, what “land” did these “European Zionists” take over and from whom did they take it? Palestine was never a nation, it has always been a buffer zone from the time that the Roman Emperor baptized the land Israel into Palestine in the second century. Palestine was never “for the Palestinians” insofar that with Palestinians you only mean the arabs that lived there. Because everyone, whether Jew, Christian or Arab or Pagan, was a Palestinian.

Mike Licona said...

Obviously, this is a matter on which sincere Christians differ. I stand behind you and what you did, David & Nabeel. Islam is an ever growing concern in the U.S. and you're revealing the intolerance of many (not all) Muslims to allow their views to be challenged in any sense, even by the exercise of freedoms guaranteed in our country.

I agree with previous comments that your actions resemble those in Acts, even Paul's in Athens (Acts 17). I'm praying for all 4 of you. May the grace and mercy of our Lord be with you.

Deano said...

Please let me know if you have obtained legal representation in this matter.

I am a local attorney (small practice) but would be willing to help in anyway I can.

I believe your arrest was wholly unconstitutional and believe you not only should fight the charges but should consider filing a civil lawsuit against the City of Dearborn as this now appears to be a pattern and practice in the City against Christians and in particular Christian Evangelicals/Missionaries.

I also believe you should forward this info to the Liberty Fund which or the Alliance Defense Fund.

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/about/allies/legal.aspx

nathan.wilkes said...

@ Kate

Ok first of all they were not preaching a religion. Christianity is a relationship w/ Christ Jesus, not a religion. Some day more ppl will understand that.

Maybe you should look up the definition of religion, just because you believe you have a relationship your god, doesn't change the fact that christianity is by definition a religion.

I don't know what city you live in, but if you were to venture into an area of your city where street thugs rule, perhaps to visit a relative, and you were carted off by police for being where you were not wanted, would you protest or simply throw up your arms and say with a sigh, "I shouldn't have been there."

You try to think up an example to explain this and its basically you being the good old innocent guy and the muslims being the thugs? With that kind of mentiality, no wonder you were kicked out for being disruptive

I find it somewhat suspicious that these so-called "Christians" (i.e. Laura, Elaine and Nathan) do not have a profile to view. Are they hiding something, maybe their true identity??? Hmm, I guess we'll have to just keep wondering... :-)

Why do you assume that I am not christian for disagreeing with you?

is it just me or is laura, Elaine and nathan totally oblivious of the contents of the Bible? It seems that they hold to the view that Jesus never rebuked nor confronted anyone of a opposing view.

I won't call them ignorant cause the Bible prevent me from calling my bretheren ignorant.But I have to wonder : are the who they claim to be. Or is this just taqqiyah 101


Why do you assume I am oblivious to what the bible says when I point out the problems you all seem to be oblivious too?

Think about it, for the sake of argument, view no religion as right. Do you think it is okay to go preaching one religion amongst people of another as if they haven't put any thought into their beliefs? It doesn't matter if they believe they are right, it doesn't matter if their religion tells them to do it. It is a disrespect to people of other faiths to go around preaching your own as if your personal views are obvious and everyone else didn't think theirs through.

Also since so many people keep repeating it, yes I know I misspoke by saying this was a muslim festival. What I was saying was that this was a festival with a very large number of muslims and David and Nabeel went in there without any thought as to how those people came to their beliefs and treated them as if they were no more than chosen for their surface appeal

Tania said...

*Read some commenters objecting to the use of cameras*

What is it with this festival and cameras? And what's so objectionable about them, especially in a festive/public setting like the one they were just in?

It is not bad form to hold a camera at a public fair. Good grief.

Now, if it was an Amish festival where they don't allow such devices and Paul, Negeen, David and Nebeel barged into the festival with their cameras and started filming the Amish... I can see why that would be offensive and objectionable to others! But this is a public festival where even other attendees are taking pictures and holding cameras.

God bless you David, Negeen, Paul and Nebeel.
I am praying for you.

Suzanne said...

I apologize, you may find this comment four times. I attempted to post this comment using an email account I discovered has been closed. This gmail account is current.

To the reader, please remember that they brought cameras because were greatly threatened (read waht they wrote dated before leaving for Dearborn). For this reason they were being both wise and prudent to have cameras with them (although having a camera in a public place need not be defended, I say this for those misunderstanding their intentions). It was right of them not to allow themselves to be bullied away from the festival. I truly hope we all follow their example in this. We must not cower to the use of threats and in many cases violence (whatever the reason for opposition) and be silenced from sharing the gospel.

I don't think anyone is ignorant of the fact that peaceable, friendly Muslims live throughout Dearborn and across the nations. And even those who are following the violent traditions and words of their religion are loved by God. Christians are most likely not igorant of this either. In our efforts to share with Muslims (and all people) God's love and forgiveness we must not ignore when our right to do that is being infringed. We cannot ignore this no matter how much we worry that our message of love and forgivenss will be distracted. We must be equally strong in our efforts to preserve the freedom to share Christ's love.

The truth is rights have been denied in Dearborn, Michigan. It is not illegal to share on public property, yet groups have been refused this right in Dearborn. I was one of them. I have also shared from a booth. I don't think anyone would deny there is benefit to that. But it is also limiting and the simple truth is that sidewalks are public, taxpayer paid property and it is illegal to refuse access to use them to share the gospel verbally or by passing out literature.
Also, as I mentioned using cameras in public places is not illegal. I was filmed frequently by interested parties when I was sharing the gospel at this Arab Festival. As for David and Nabeel, no one was forced to speak to or be in front of their cameras. They were filming openly. Wrongful imprisonment must not be defended even if you disagree with their approach of having cameras. We are an open country. It is not loving to allow illegal infringments of this freedom. It's not loving at all.

I commend my christian brothers and sisters for taking the time to share about God's amazing love and forgiveness with those living in Dearborn...those at the booths, front doors, sidewalks, those with cameras and without.

To any Muslims reaing this...you are dearly loved by God...we christians will always have faults, imperfections, times of embarassment and humiliation (sometimes because we deserve it, sometimes because we don't). But God is not like us. He is perfect in love and holiness. He made you to be in a loving relationship with Him. But your sins have separated you from Him. He promised in advance that he would send one to suffer the steep penalty for sin: death. And He kept that promise by sending Jesus Christ. The punishment now paid, justice is served. And God's great love is revealed. He gave you His life. There is NOTHING He wouldn't do for you. He has proved it. Accepting the way He has made for you to be forgiven and in an eternal relationship with him will grant you both.

I sincerely hope you made that choice.

1moremuslim said...

@Nakdimon316 you are unable to answer the question. For what reason do the tribes of the Amazon go to hell? You can't say because they refused to believe in Jesus because they have never that Chance. Then for what reason? You can't say for sins, because , there again, according to Christian theology, all men have fallen to sin because OF ADAM. I am still waiting for an answer, and call your best scholar to answer this question : What is the guilt of those who have never heard about Jesus?
I have another question for you. Since God paid your full payment for your sins, for what reasons Christians are still suffering? This is 1400 year old question, call Mike Lacona, james White and all your scholars. Remember God's justice must be demonstrated means, the sinful must pay for his sins, and those whom their sins are paid , should not suffer anymore.
In the quran , we are given a clear way how to get saved, I acknowledge that salvation in Christianity is as easy as eating cakes, since nothing is required, but amazingly, people still convert. They prefer fasting 30 days in the heat of the summer, with no guarantee, WHY? Because Christianity has no arguments. If you know another reason please share it.

mkvine said...

nathan.wilkes,

You said: "You try to think up an example to explain this and its basically you being the good old innocent guy and the muslims being the thugs? With that kind of mentiality, no wonder you were kicked out for being disruptive"

This was an excellent example, and yes the Muslims were acting like thugs because they falsely accused David et al for something they didn't do. This conduct of manipulation and intimidation by these Muslims is very thuglike in nature. Can you point to a crime David Wood et al commited that deserved jail time? I'm still waiting for someone to answer that. In regards to being disruptive, you didn't explain what exactly was disruptive. Was it answering questions that Muslims posed to them? Was it LEGALLY filming (a lot of people were filming and didn't get arrrested)? Please tell us EXACTLY what they did to be disruptive and please provide evidence.

You said: "Why do you assume that I am not christian for disagreeing with you?"

Read again. I didn't "assume" you weren't Christian. I said that I found it suspicious ;)

You said: "Think about it, for the sake of argument, view no religion as right. Do you think it is okay to go preaching one religion amongst people of another as if they haven't put any thought into their beliefs? It doesn't matter if they believe they are right, it doesn't matter if their religion tells them to do it. It is a disrespect to people of other faiths to go around preaching your own as if your personal views are obvious and everyone else didn't think theirs through."

That's exactly why they didn't approach Muslims to preach to them, they waited for them to approach them first, and THEN they answered their questions about Christianity. If the Muslims found it disrespectful for David et al to answer questions, then why did Muslims go to them and ask them questions in the first place? Besides, how does answering questions warrant an arrest? I hope you don't think it does, but who knows.... In addition, if a religion is so easily bothered by just the mere prescense of persons from other religions, then that is the religion's problem (Islam), not the persons problem (David et al). Seems like Islam is a very insecure religion.... Also, it doesn't matter if YOU don't like what David et al did, they didn't break any law. And rather than seeing the injustice done by the Muslims for falsely accusing David et al, you complain about them LEGALLY answering questions. You seem to be justifying people getting their emotions hurt to = people going to jail for it.

You said: "Also since so many people keep repeating it, yes I know I misspoke by saying this was a muslim festival..."

Yes we know you misspoke, which makes me question if you haven't "misspoken" about anything else you've said.

Haecceitas said...

1moremuslim,

I'm afraid that you are perhaps not aware of the range of answers that Christian theology allows to your "unanswerable" questions. But not only that. Your questions seem to display an incorrect view of the nature of sin.

But first, let's take your claim that it follows from what you said that sins can't be the reason for the damnation of those who haven't heard of Jesus. But clearly this doesn't follow. Just because someone may live in an area where he has no access to cancer treatment, it doesn't follow that his cause of death wasn't cancer.

You asked "What is the guilt of those who have never heard about Jesus?". Somehow this seems to assume that these people have no guilt for their sins just because everyone else is a sinner too. But why think that? Granted that they could not have remained without sin due to the nature of the original sin, it still doesn't follow that there were no sins that they committed which they could have avoided. Also, assuming that they are worshiping nature or some finite polytheistic deities rather than acknowledging the one creator God, they are rejecting the revelation that IS available to them. Furthermore, given that God is omniscient and has what is called middle knowledge, it may be the case that God knows that these people would not have accepted the Gospel had they heard of it. Also, if there are individuals who haven't heard of Christ but who have responded to the light of God's general revelation, so that they recognize the existence of a creator God to whom they are morally responsible and desperately needing his mercy, and who would have accepted the Gospel given a chance, I would think that perhaps God will give them the knowledge of the truth (via supernatural means if no missionaries are not available). I also think it's not totally impossible that such a person would have the benefits of Christ's atoning work without a conscious knowledge of it, even if he did not receive a chance to know the Gospel message.

With regard to your question about why the effects of sin are still with us, the primary reason is that we are living in a transition period. The ultimate effects of sin (eternal separation from God) have been done away with, but being conformed to the image of Christ is a process that is still taking place and will not be complete in this life. There will remain a battle with one's old nature and identity in Adam until we are made complete with our identity in Christ that is already ours by God's promise. This will happen in the resurrection. But feel free to share your argument for why God would be obliged to make that available to us right away.

kinilaw said...

I used to be a street preacher in my country, the Philippines, a long time ago.
I street preached on the assumption that men are going to hell and will go to hell UNLESS somebody comes to them WITH THE GOSPEL and unless they believed and obeyed the gospel.
All the while at the back of my mind was the nagging question: if it is Jesus Christ who has the power to redeem, and if He is indeed sitting in heaven now because His task is finished, then why are we still preaching as if people were going to hell unless the gospel is believed like it is the gospel that was crucified, died, was buried, rose again from the grave, ascended to heaven and is coming again ?
I was a Roman Catholic for many years, and when I converted an aunt followed suit because I posed a question to her which nagged her and nagged her and nagged her until she was unable to do anything else but turn TO CHRIST, not the gospel.
I asked her, if Jesus Christ was the one crucified at the cross, then why do we call on Mary and the Apostles ?
The fact is that Jesus Christ HAS DONE EVERYTHING that the Father wanted Him to do. Redeem a people unto Himself, whose names have been written in the book of life from BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
A phrase which means before there were stars, or planets, or skies, or atmosphere.
Before there were Judaists, Muslims, Pagans, idolaters, atheists, Wiccans, and so on.
A phrase which means before the seven continents and the sub-continents were populated, God KNEW each and every name of each and every person who will be born and exist in all these continents and islands, and if He can't we might as well forget about worshipping Him and calling Him Omniscient and believing His word because He lied about Himself.
A phrase which means having known each and every inhabitant in all the world in all its generations He chose a people unto Himself and wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life BEFORE any of them were ever born and DESPITE and INSPITE of their chronological, geographical, political, racial, credal, or theological circumstances, and He sent His Son to redeem them from their bondage to sin which He foresaw and from His coming wrath on sin and Jesus Christ SUCCESSFULLY did that, not the gospel, not the preachers, not anybody else, and the Holy Spirit will ON HIS OWN and without help from a fallen, though forgiven sinner, will regenerate each one of them because He is God and was there when God chose a people unto Himself.
So, what you did was provocative, and presumptous that WITHOUT YOU, God and His Son Jesus Christ will not be able to complete what He wants to do. Save and Redeem.
As a matter of fact, IT IS OVER.
That is why the Bible says: He that is unjust , let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy , let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold , I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work
shall be . (Revelation 22:11, 12).
Sorry for the length.
But if there is anything I resent at all, it is that this country is so liberal it does not know when an elephant is starting to occupy its living room, and I leave that to the readers' interpretation.

Rhology said...

Proud to call you guys brothers; we are all bought by the Lamb. May the Lord continue to bless you and count you worthy of whatever, even suffering disgrace, for the Name.

kinilaw said...

1moremuslim:

I am not in favor of Christians "crashing" in on your festivals just because there is an opportunity for them to present the gospel.
I believe evangelization does not pertain to unbelievers but to those who believe already.
That said, in this country there is freedom of speech, and, just plain freedom, and whether you like it or not, many of your people from wherever they come from are enjoying freedoms here which they would otherwise not enjoy where they came from, and not only that, they are even treated like fragile glass by authorities who should be enforcing the freedoms which you violate with your demands that people not doing anything unlawful be arrested for your sake.
What more do you want ?
You've got your cake, and you're eating it, too.
Go figure that one out.

1moremuslim said...

@Nakdimon316 you are making bad analogies to prove your point. Consider this more accurate analogy. Imagine ALL people are born with cancer, genetically, And then some people managed to build a hospital to cure people, but only treat people who pay 1M$. Many people will die, why ? Because they are poor, not just because they have cancer, and for what guilt? NONE. Since everybody has fallen into sin because of ADAM. I am not asking for what reason, I am asking for what GUILT. Your best answer is to assume that those people (millions of them) would not have believed in Jesus anyway. This a claim which can never be verified, but it's incredibility improbable. We know that the Pagan Europe, after thousands of years of Paganism, turned to Christianity when they got the message. It's not believable that all their previous generations would not have accepted Christianity. . Furthermore, Many Christians came to believe in Jesus as a subordinate son of God, others were adoptionists because they had just the "bad" Gospel and the "bad" church father. Leaving aside , that the Historical Jesus is one on whom people believed was a prophet, not a God. There are people who can be hypnotized by your kind of answers, but others would make good use of their God given brain.
As a Christian, you have no arguments to make against Paganism, if God can enter into his creation and become a man without ceasing to be God, then it's also possible that God became a statue without ceasing to be God. Does God have the capacity to enter into what he has created, and become a cow? If yes, then good luck convincing those who worship a cow that they are worshiping the wrong God, if they would respond: This Cow is fully animal, fully God, two natures, not intermingling and not separate. Prove them wrong!
However, in the question of suffering, there you fail miserably, you have just proved that God is temporally unjust by letting Christians suffering despite their sins forgiving. Do you know what is like to die under the rubble of your church in an earthquake?

Lydia McGrew said...

Was there a hearing this morning? Update? We're all eager for news.

Nazam said...

Mike,

I agree with what one of the bloggers who wrote (Sparechange) "if you are ministering to people just so you can experience persecution, then I believe you are indeed missing the point. The point is to bring these people into a true relationship with God. For their sakes. Not so you can get your badge of honor."

Another blogger has pointed out that there have been other Christian organisation in the past who have had cameras present at the Arab festival and they have had no problems. You can even go on to Youtube and type "Josh McDowell, Arab Festival" and see for yourselves Josh McDowell happily sharing his faith and being filmed by his crew with no problems.

If you put a camera on someone's face when they tell you they don't want to be on camera and then you speak back to the camera and say "look how deceptive these people are they don't want us to record them" and then point the camera back at them, to me this is just someone who is deliberately looking for a reaction.

Haecceitas said...

"Update 3
We'll be on Jesus or Muhammad tonight at 11, discussing the arrest at Dearborn."


I hope that the program will be uploaded soon. Presumably it will be available here: http://www.abnsat.com/abnnew/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&Itemid=70

Haecceitas said...

Here's the direct link to the program where David is discussing the issue: http://bit.ly/cbGJDW

1moremuslim said...

Dearborn Arab Festival.
Death threats caught on Tape!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIH1F7KGWnY

Lydia said...

"When "co-religionists" say that Christians should not preach the gospel, we must seriously ask ourselves whether we should treat them as part of the true religion that worships the God of the Holy Scriptures. "

Amen. Some have not read the Word closely enough to see the methods used in the NT to preach the offensive Gospel. And it is offensive if it is actually told in full.

There are some Christians who think that if Muslims like them then they will like our Jesus. But they usually end up getting used by these folks like in the Caner debacle.

If we did not love Muslims, we would not attempt to tell them the full Gospel.

On a secular note, so far, our country protects free speech. Except maybe in Dearborn. Could it be because one of them is a former Muslim?

Ken said...

The Qur'an encourages lies told by Muslims to Jews and infidels. How can they ever be trusted? Read the quote below.

"Outlined in the Qur’an and other Islamic sacred works is a description of the murder of one "Kab Ashraf" (see Chapter 4, Incident #4) . In this carefully chronicled event we learn that the Prophet Muhammad specifically sanctioned the use of deceit and lies to kill a troublesome opponent. For some time after his arrival in Medina, Muhammad continued to have problems with various people who refused to acknowledge his claim to prophet-hood, and had several critics murdered prior to this Kab Ashraf. Kab, a prominent local, made it known that he did not believe in Muhammad, yet never lifted a weapon against any Muslim. He only voiced his opinion against Muhammad, and allegedly made up some unsavory poems about Muslim women. Muhammad saw him as a threat, and had him killed in the night. When Kab’s volunteer assassins sought permission from the Prophet to speak falsely to gain the trust of their victim,
"Yes. … You may say it." Ibn Ishaq quoted Him as answering, "Say what you like, for you are free in the matter"
The above is an excerpt from:
www.wikiislam.com

For More Info See: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Islam_Undressed:_Islamic_Honesty_and_Honor

lyndon420 said...

Wow....so much confusion and opinions from people who claim to be from the same general religion...and you all probably read from the same book too....lol. To me religion = confusion ( I guess that's why we have a hundred or so different favours to choose from - just pick your flavour). I had my taste of religion until I was 16, but when my questions couldn't get answers from those that were a part of that faith their whole lives....I realized that it was time for me to use my ability of free thought to guide me instead of resorting back to 'the book' that was apparently causing all my confusion in the first place.

Oh and by the way...a lot of you seem to be drifting way off topic when it comes down to what this particular thread is about. Step away from your bibles for a few minutes and let your brains tell you what the answers are. 'GOD' gave you brains...use them.

Mike said...

Well said, Lyndon420. I used to be a hard-core evangelical/fundamentalist Christian, and was certain of the truth of Christianity. I used to witness to Muslims and others using the same boring cliche, "Christianity is not a religion. It's a relationship." Well, that's complete hogwash! I'm no fan of Islam either, but Christianity, whichever flavor of it, is just as much a religion as Islam or any other faith system. It has its set of beliefs about God and list of rules and regulations that one must follow in order to be a "true follower of Christ." David and Nabeel do a good job of exposing Islam for what it is, but I can't go along with their view that Christianity is alternative to religion. As an agnostic theist (I don't like labels, but when push comes to shove, that's what I call myself), I don't think any organized religion is the way to go, whether that's Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any other faith system. To me, they're all theories about questions we don't the answer to. Some seem to have more truth than others of course.

Now, I wasn't at the arab festival, so I can't say for sure what happened. We have both people saying that David and Nabeel acted inappropriately and people who say David and Nabeel deserved to be arrested. I can't say for sure what happened, but I've been reading this blog for a while and prior to the festival, it seemed that David and Nabeel were hoping for some kind of confrontation/incident to happen at the festival. Taking that into consideration, and the fact that you brought a video camera with you as well makes me wonder if you guys are as innocent as you make yourselves out to be. Hopefully the truth will prevail and if you guys are innocent of the charges, you will be exonerated. However, I'm strongly allowing for the possibility that you guys may have gotten what you deserved....

lyndon420 said...

Hey HAECCEITAS:

I was just looking at the link you posted and are encouraging us to go to....I didn't click on it, just looked at it. That is the strangest looking link I have ever seen, and you know what? It also looks exactly like a virus I saw floating around on Facebook about 2 weeks ago.

So...I would like to know why you are trying to give everyone here a virus? If you don't answer back then I will know why.... CYBER-TERRORISM

Traeh said...

Two distinct things are getting confused together by many commenters:

1. Rights under U.S. law.

2. What makes effective or genuine Christian proselytizing, and why other Christian preaching groups there were not arrested.

As to #1, it looks like Acts17 was acting within its rights under U.S. law, and the police had no right to arrest them or confiscate their cameras.

As to #2, I have no idea whether Acts17's methods of proselytizing are more or less effective than the methods of the other Christian groups who were at the festival and did not get arrested. I don't doubt that Acts17 was intellectually and spiritually very provocative. Is that also more effective?

As to the arrests, here's what I bet happened: The police observed that Acts17 was saying provocative (and no doubt true) things to which some Muslims were reacting threateningly or menacingly. Or the police thought Muslims might start to become threatening. The police then considered the situation. Did they want to stand there for hours to guard Acts17 from possible and unpredictable physical attacks from this or that Muslim? No. The police do not have the manpower to withdraw from the rest of the festival and spend hours managing a crowd around Acts17. So the police decided to solve the problem of potential Muslim violence by arresting Acts17. That was perhaps not legal, or right, but it was practical from the point of view of the police: after all, the police were not about to assign a dozen officers to guard Acts17 all day.

The Berean Search said...

lyndon420,

For someone who is lecturing others to "use their brain" you have done a very poor job of presenting logical objections. It simply does not follow that just because people have different understandings of a revealed text that the text is unintelligible or uninspired. Also, quoting from the Bible and accepting it as inspired does not necessitate turning off your brain.

Thanks anyway for presenting your subjective world view that appeals only to the limited and finite ability of human intellect as the ultimate authority.

axisoflogos said...

Umm, lyndon420..

How is your thought "free"?

Haecceitas said...

lyndon420,

It's just a standard URL shortener. There are many URL shortening services around. Anyone can use them and the fact that someone may have used bit.ly service to spread a URL that has a virus in no way implies that all links shortened by bit.ly have a virus. I have a Norton AntiVirus program on my computer and get no virus alerts. I think you can see why I chose to use the shortener when I give you the full URL instead: http://www.abnsat.com/abnnew/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=70&video_id=176

Verumi said...

1moremuslim:

With regards to your question regarding the Amazon tribes, this is what the Bible says about those who have not heard of Christ:

ROMANS 2:12-16 (NIV)

12 - All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14 - (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

15 - since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

16 - This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

gracielynn's said...

not to fear ! Jesus is with you.. it is a blessing !
Don't fret one second on Laura's comments. She worships the "Hippee Jesus" As our minister says :_)
Jesus is proud you walked into the den and preached HIS TRUTH !
saving anyone at anytime from the fires of Hell is worth it !
we're behind you all the way !
meek Christians like Laura stand back as millions doom their eternity !

Harper said...

a couple of people have posted about the "effectiveness" of the evangelical style of the Acts 17 evangelists.
Our commission is to preach the Gospel, to explain to people that they are sinners and that their sins WILL be paid for, either by themselves, or by God Himself (Jesus Christ), and to repent and believe. That is the Biblical Gospel Call. Whether it is "effective" in man's eyes is irrelevant. The Gospel is a stumbling block and foolishness to those who are perishing. We preach the Gospel in order to obey our duty as Christians, and God, in His own will and in His own time will soften the hearts of those He chooses.

Nakdimon said...

Which brings me to my question to you:

If you reject the doctrine of vicarious suffering, then why is it that your prophet taught that very doctrine as your most trusted collections of Hadith tell us:

Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6666:Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire.

Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6668: Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.


As if that wasn’t disastrous enough, here is another hadith that says Allah hates non-sinners so much, that he would wipe them out and replace them with sinners:

Sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6622: Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.

Can you tell me what remedy you have for the guy walking through the Amazon? How are we to trust a god that has more love for sinners than for non-sinners, that he would wipe out sinners for no reason than he wants people to sin and repent? Allah seems to love sinners (people who DON’T do as he pleases) more than non-sinners (people who CONSTANTLY do his will).

1moremuslim wrote: In the quran , we are given a clear way how to get saved, I acknowledge that salvation in Christianity is as easy as eating cakes, since nothing is required, but amazingly, people still convert. They prefer fasting 30 days in the heat of the summer, with no guarantee, WHY? Because Christianity has no arguments. If you know another reason please share it.

Salvation in Christianity is easy as eating cakes? Salvation in Christianity is anything but cheap, bucko! A price was paid! A price higher than anything any human being can bring to the table. Your salaat and zakaat and all that other nonsense vaporize in comparison. Our God has saved through the death of His Son. What does Allah do to save? Hold up scales? You keep saying that Quran gives “clear” instructions. I haven’t seen them. Please point them out. And while you’re at it, answer all the questions I have asked you. So far you haven’t answered a single one from the previous post.

Shalom,
Nakdimon

Nakdimon said...

1moremuslim wrote: @Nakdimon316 you are unable to answer the question. For what reason do the tribes of the Amazon go to hell? You can't say because they refused to believe in Jesus because they have never that Chance. Then for what reason? You can't say for sins, because , there again, according to Christian theology, all men have fallen to sin because OF ADAM. I am still waiting for an answer, and call your best scholar to answer this question : What is the guilt of those who have never heard about Jesus?

1moremuslim, I already answered that question and I will repeat it again: God will judge those people because of their sin. All men have fallen since Adam and God has made provision for their salvation. What will be of those that never heard of Yeshua, I don’t know, that is not addressed in the scriptures. But those that HAVE heard and rejected God’s gift of salvation will fall under God’s judgment. Now that I have answered that question, let me ask you one of my own:

Since you claim that Islam is the only way to Allah, what about the people that never heard of Islam? Will they be sent to hell? Or will Allah pardon them to Paradise? What is the way to Paradise as fixed by Allah anyway? What guarantee does Islam give you, or any person for that matter, for escaping Hell?

1moremuslim wrote: I have another question for you. Since God paid your full payment for your sins, for what reasons Christians are still suffering? This is 1400 year old question, call Mike Lacona, james White and all your scholars. Remember God's justice must be demonstrated means, the sinful must pay for his sins, and those whom their sins are paid , should not suffer anymore.

I don’t have to “call my scholars”. As the Bible says:

Romans 8: 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

So we know that full redemption comes only in the fulfillment of our salvation when our corruptible bodies are transformed into the glorious bodies we are promised, being conformed to the image of the Son of God, Yeshua the Messiah, in physical and spiritual sense. So there is your answer.

You can also read Romans 7 where Paul talks about us suffering frustration through our fleshly corrupted body that leans to sin instead of righteousness. Our spirit wants to do what’s right, but our body does what’s wrong:

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7)

So we are delivered from sin fully at the Lord’s return as is also discussed elsewhere in the Scriptures. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) We have that guarantee. We won’t come under God’s judgment. You will, because you have heard of the grace of God and you have rejected it for a false doctrine, in which is no hope, no assurance of salvation. Insha’Allah is your mantra and you don’t know what Allah has ordained for you.

ilhas said...

Did you have authority to be a vendor at the Dearborn Festival? Everyone who solicited information or services at the festival paid the chamber of commerce money to rent space. Did you pay any fees to the chamber?

There were many Muslim and Christian group at the festival who were not expelled or asked to leave by the Dearborn Police and they too were spreading the Word. I suspect that the four of you could have been considered trespassers because you didn't "pay to play". Had you paid the required dues to participate in the festival you would not have been asked to leave.

Suppose another individual or vendor came to the festival and "opened shop" without first getting approval from the chamber of commerce or the organizers of the festival. I suspect they too would have been asked to leave.

In my opinion, you brought this on to yourselves and Jesus would be ashamed of all four of you for your dishonorable conduct.

Traeh said...

Harper said,
...a couple of people have posted about the "effectiveness" of the evangelical style of the Acts 17 evangelists....Whether it is "effective" in man's eyes is irrelevant.

Harper, it sounds as if you are saying that if one way of talking to people brings more people to Christ, while another way of talking to people brings fewer people to Christ, you don't care to study what the difference is.

ilhas said...

Did you have permission to be at the festival and / or did you pay to be a vendor at the Dearborn Festival? Everyone from merchants to proselytizers who solicited information or services at the festival paid money to rent space to conduct their business. Did you pay any fees?

There were many Muslim and Christian group at the festival who were not expelled or asked to leave by the Dearborn Police and they too were spreading the Word. I suspect that the four of you could have been considered trespassers because you didn't "pay to play". Had you paid the required dues to participate in the festival you would not have been asked to leave.

Suppose another individual or vendor came to the festival and "opened shop" without first getting approval from the event organizers of the festival. I suspect they too would have been asked to leave.

In my opinion, you brought this on to yourselves and were indeed disturbing the peace. Jesus would be ashamed of all four of you for your dishonorable conduct.

David Wood said...

Ilhas,

We weren't distributing anything at the festival. This is a Muslim misrepresentation. We were having conversations with Muslims who approached us.

So let me ask you to clarify your view. Are you saying that in order to have a conversation with a Muslim on a public street, we must pay the Arab Chamber of Commerce, and that if we don't pay them, we should be sent to jail?

ilhas said...

Yes, I am saying that if you are proselytizing at the festival where other tenants have paid to proselytize and have paid to set up a booth to proselytize then what you and your partners did can be construed as theft.

Why didn't you pay the chamber of commerce to set a booth and conduct your business legitimately? I'm almost certain that if you paid for a booth then you would not have invited trouble.

You still did not answer my question of why weren't the other Christian groups, who paid to be at the festival, arrested for proselytizing?

I will answer your question of "So Are you saying that in order to have a conversation with a Muslim on a public street, we must pay the Arab Chamber of Commerce, and that if we don't pay them, we should be sent to jail?" Yes, I am saying that if you want to proselytize on a public street where the chamber of commerce has reserved this venue (the Dearborn Festival) to make money from tenants who bought space from the commerce to proselytize, then you too should have paid to proselytize.

I am almost certain that you and your friend proselytize everyday in Dearborn and throughout Michigan to spread the Word either door to door, in seminars, schools, parks, etc.. and are not arrested for proselytizing in these areas or venues. The Dearborn Festival was established to give people who pay the chamber of commerce to solicit their products or services. You did not pay, so you were arrested. Dearborn Police did the right thing arresting the four of you.

lyndon420 said...

@Haecceitas - Thank-you for your clarification on that. I've never heard of url shorteners before. I'm sure you appreciate my cautiousness considering that I have already got a virus from clicking on a similar type link. Unless I can see the entire link, I won't bother clicking on it...better safe than sorry right?

@axisoflogos - My definition of free thought (or freedom of thought) is having an opinion that is NOT influenced by someone else. Other terms would be 'openminded' and thinking 'outside-of-the-box' ....something most religions frown upon (for example: try talking to a preacher/minister about the possibilities of intelligent life on other planets and see what happens). I can't take being told what to believe....that's why religion wasn't for me anymore. If I have a question I will seek an answer somehow.

@The Berean Search - You are questioning the reasoning of my general conclusions in regards to my disagreements? Sorry dude...but I am 'spot on'. I was making a statement on how this particular thread veered off topic by going from "Did Acts 17 do something wrong by videotaping their efforts?", to "What would Jesus do?" and "You are reading the bible wrong...it actually says this and means this." etc & etc.

Wow....the word World(ly) (used in such a way) is something I haven't heard since I was 16...back when I was being 'subjected' to religion. I appreciate the compliment though, because back then a 'worldly person' to me was someone who was capable of thinking for themselves....I was jealous of them. I wanted what they had...the power of free thought. And to say that I am being subjective...well you may as well be calling the kettle black because pretty much everyone in this thread ( and everyone else in the world for that matter ) will at some point place excessive emphasis on their opinions in an effort to explain why they believe in whatever-it-is-they-believe-in.

You also said, "...subjective world view that appeals only to the limited and finite ability of human intellect as the ultimate authority". Did you actually think that up or did you copy it from your religious literature? Anyway...'limited'? Hardly....the only limitations are the ones you put on yourself (yeah...I came up with that quote on my own). Finate? Intellect? Authority? Seriously? Honestly....my views are (apparently) limited to openminded people.

(I was wondering if I was going to offend someone when I suggested, "Use your brains")

Nakdimon said...

Mike wrote: Taking that into consideration, and the fact that you brought a video camera with you as well makes me wonder if you guys are as innocent as you make yourselves out to be. Hopefully the truth will prevail and if you guys are innocent of the charges, you will be exonerated. However, I'm strongly allowing for the possibility that you guys may have gotten what you deserved....

Mike, the reason why they brought cameras is that Muslims will lie to your face and accuse you of stuff that you haven’t even done and in the process deny everything they have said in a conversation. Having had that experience myself over and over again, tells me that bringing a video camera is essential when going into a crowd of Muslims. When you have had the experience with a group of people who have no problem accusing you of things that haven’t taken place and you don’t bring a camera or another recording device for the sole purpose of vindicating yourself from the charges these people bring against you, then there is something wrong with yourself.

Many times in chat rooms I have had Muslims telling me things on several occasions and minutes later, when you remind them of what they said, they will deny they said it just to escape the consequences of their words. That’s why when I’m talking to Muslims in chat rooms I always record them. Many a time I have recorded Muslims, reminding them of their words afterwards, them accusing me of lying and putting words in their mouths, demonstrating that I am accurate by playing the recording for them so they can hear their own words and STILL telling me that I’m lying about them. It is no wonder that David and Nabeel went in there with Paul and Negeen, bringing their cameras with them.

Nakdimon

axisoflogos said...

@lyndon420 said - My definition of free thought (or freedom of thought) is having an opinion that is NOT influenced by someone else.

Other terms would be 'openminded' and thinking 'outside-of-the-box' ....something most religions frown upon (for example: try talking to a preacher/minister about the possibilities of intelligent life on other planets and see what happens).

@axisoflogos replies - How do you know when your opinion is NOT influenced by someone else? Do you sense it as an absense of peer pressure? By feelings of rebellion or contrariness? Did you form your opinon about aliens without influence from others? If so, please tell me about it.

In a materialistic sense, what difference would it make to be influenced by another collection of atoms? It seems kind of like two fizzy drinks side by side on a table. How do your atoms avoid influence from other atom collections? What kind of force do you imaging moves on these collections to give them an ability to think 'outside-of-the-box'? Do the atom collections 'randomly swerve' or something to produce this freedom of thought?

Athiest Dan Barker believes in biological determinism, but then, you may not agree. Afer all, there are hundreds of different flavors of athiests who believe irrational things. They even all claim to be the same carbon-based life form - lol.

@lyndon420 said - I can't take being told what to believe....that's why religion wasn't for me anymore.

@axisoflogos replies - Oh, you still have a religion.

@lyndon420 said - If I have a question I will seek an answer somehow.

@lyndon420 said (somewhere else) - Unless I can see the entire link, I won't bother clicking on it...better safe than sorry right?

@axisoflogos replies - Oh, the irony.

Nakdimon said...

As a Christian, you have no arguments to make against Paganism, if God can enter into his creation and become a man without ceasing to be God, then it's also possible that God became a statue without ceasing to be God. Does God have the capacity to enter into what he has created, and become a cow? If yes, then good luck convincing those who worship a cow that they are worshiping the wrong God, if they would respond: This Cow is fully animal, fully God, two natures, not intermingling and not separate. Prove them wrong!

Well you imply that we “just believe”, without any reason whatsoever, that God came in human form. There is a purpose in why we say He did, and that purpose is wholly consistent with the previous Scriptures, with the character of the God of the previous Scriptures and the testimony of the previous prophets! It is not something that just fell out of thin air. So we DO have something to say against pagans who claim God is a cow, namely, we have nothing to from the previous prophets, no basis to believe that God would come as a cow or a statue. However, we have numerous references to demonstrate that Yeshua is God in flesh. Here are the passages that you can verify: Malachi 3:1, Zachariah 12:10, Judges 13:20-22, Genesis 32:24-30, all these passages showing God appearing in human form. Also parallel Matthew 21:14-16 with Psalm 8:1-2, parallel John 12:39-41 with Isaiah 6:1-10, parallel Revelation 2:23 with Jeremiah 11:20 and 17:10, all these passages identify Yeshua with Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


However, in the question of suffering, there you fail miserably, you have just proved that God is temporally unjust by letting Christians suffering despite their sins forgiving. Do you know what is like to die under the rubble of your church in an earthquake?

What does this last comment have anything to do with what we just discussed? Furthermore, How is God unjust if he promises us salvation in through His Son IN THE WORLD TO COME. READ our scriptures before you judge our God to be unjust:

1 Corinthians 15: 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Our hope is NOT for this world, it is particularly for the NEXT. Our hope is not here and now, it’s for eternal life! That is the whole purpose of the vicarious atonement of the Son of God, Yeshua, to begin with! So instead of calling our God “unjust” demands a lot of chutzpah, coming from a man who believes in a God that wipes out non-sinners in favor of sinners, who deceives people for no reason but because he likes to, who has created the world’s biggest religion by deceiving even the true followers of Yeshua giving them the impression that Yeshua died on the cross, having Yeshua appearing to them afterwards without even telling them the crucifixion never happened, who gives no assurance of salvation but the only assurance he gives them is hellfire, who has created hell only to fill it with MEN and jinn. And the list goes on and on and on. Yet you have the audacity to blame the true God for extending his undeserving grace to mankind, while yours does absolutely NOTHING for salvation of mankind? Please…

Nakdimon said...

1moremuslim: @Nakdimon316 you are making bad analogies to prove your point. Consider this more accurate analogy. Imagine ALL people are born with cancer, genetically, And then some people managed to build a hospital to cure people, but only treat people who pay 1M$. Many people will die, why ? Because they are poor, not just because they have cancer, and for what guilt? NONE. Since everybody has fallen into sin because of ADAM. I am not asking for what reason, I am asking for what GUILT.

Oh boy, muslims and analogies….

It is your analogy that makes no sense, since your analogy requires people to pay for the cure, while the reality is that people CANT EARN OR DESERVE their salvation. It’s a free gift! Everyone who is willing to accept the cure will be cured. Those that reject the cure will perish! Mind you, God didn’t have to save us, yet in His grace He chose to do so. So your analogy is way off. Now can you finally answer the question: what remedy do you have for these people in the Amazon if you would finally reach them? And what will happen to them if they never heard of Islam?

You would make a very bad car salesman. Instead of telling the buyer what’s so good with your cars, you constantly criticize the cars of other salesmen.

Your best answer is to assume that those people (millions of them) would not have believed in Jesus anyway. This a claim which can never be verified, but it's incredibility improbable.

No that was not my argument. You are obviously not reading what I’m saying. I was saying that this is the implication YOU made, not me. You wrote:

There are tribes in Latin America who have never heard about the God Jesus, why don't you go and save them from being sent to Hell generation after generation for no reason other than living in the Amazon.

Your implication is if those people in the Amazon would hear the Gospel they would automatically accept it. I contend that this reasoning is simply begging the question.


We know that the Pagan Europe, after thousands of years of Paganism, turned to Christianity when they got the message. It's not believable that all their previous generations would not have accepted Christianity. . Furthermore, Many Christians came to believe in Jesus as a subordinate son of God, others were adoptionists because they had just the "bad" Gospel and the "bad" church father. Leaving aside , that the Historical Jesus is one on whom people believed was a prophet, not a God. There are people who can be hypnotized by your kind of answers, but others would make good use of their God given brain.

Ok, you have said a mouth full. Now for the evidence for your assertion.
1 Can you give a few examples of those “adoptionists” that you claim?
2 What is that “bad” Gospel that you talk about?
3 Who is that “bad” Church father that you talk about?
4 Can you give me any historical ancient source that describes the “historical Jesus” whom people believed was just a prophet?
5 Who were those people that believed he was a prophet and not a God?

Please show us that you have used your brain and that we have just been “hypnotized” by our kind of answers. In other words: Put your money where your mouth is.

-->>>

Ken said...

On this side of the world, IT IS the duty of the police to: arrest/detain those GUILTY, OR SUSPECTED, of committing a crime and to PROTECT the INNOCENT. Further, the police, in a democracy, are to protect those who are exercising their rights and freedoms.
If the police were mandated to do what was expedient, to "not bother" - to save time, money and effort then there would still be segregation and lynchings.
I'm glad that some some decided to "bother" about such things.
Under what law was the camera seized?

ProtestTheLeft said...

It is a terrible shame when Americans cannot stand on public land that is partly theirs, without being harassed, and arrested for it. This nation was founded upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not upon the Koran. Your constitutional rights were clearly violated by the Dearborn police.

I am sure that they are just trying to keep a riot from starting before someone gets hurt or killed, but they are going about it the wrong way.

Christians have as much right to walk on public land, and pass out literature as anyone else does.

I will be praying that God the Holy Spirit will move massively in Dearborn MI, that hundreds of Muslims might turn to Christ the true Messiah! AMEN!

ProtestTheLeft said...

There is NO doubt in my mind that the Dearborn police have forgotten the law of the United States, and the Constitution, and need to be taught a lesson regarding freedom.

There is a definite problem in Dearborn MI. The problem is that Muslims have taken over the city, and as one would expect them too, they have sought to push everyone else out along with every other faith.

I know that Yahweh is bigger and badder then their God, and the Yeshua is the Savior that longs to save them also.

I will pray that God the Holy Spirit will move massively in Dearborn MI. I will pray that many Muslims will have their hearts opened by God, so that they may see and hear the truth, and be saved!

God bless you for what you are doing!

Bartimaeus said...

Do all those dhimmies who think the Dearborn 4 went too far.

I was there. I saw what happened. The ones that were causing the disturbance were the Muslims not the Dearborn 4. The ones who made the threats were the Muslims not the Dearborn 4. You had 3 people with camers at a public event and one other person preaching Christ to Muslims. You have a bunch of cops inforcing Shariah Law at the festival.

seastar said...

Very eye-opening! It is especially disheartening for me to read the comments that some Christians left in regards to their brothers and sisters in Christ in Dearborn who were preaching the Good News and distributing Bibles outside a Muslim festival! Jesus commands us to, "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching." 2 Timothy 4:2. Jesus said to preach the Gospel to everyone! (Mark16:15-16). These bold Christians need to be encouraged NOT discouraged by other believers!
Blessings,
Emily

lyndon420 said...

@axisoflogos -

How do I know when I am not being influenced by others? Easy...I don't listen to them...lol. For example, when someone tells me a movie sucks I don't immediately take their word for it....I see it for myself and then I make 'my own' conclusions. I don't see how having an open mind makes someone 'rebellious'.

Yes...I did form my opinions on aliens without any influence from other people. When I was about 8 years old I was looking up at the stars and I asked my dad if there was other planets with life on them, and my dad said, "Well....what do you think"? I said that I think there could be, to which he replied, "Well....maybe you're right". You'll notice my use of the word 'maybe'? He didn't say yes, he didn't say no....he left it up to me to draw my own conclusions. And just because there are other people in the world who happen to believe in the possibility of aliens, it doesn't mean that I drew my conclusions from what they may think on the matter. What do your bibles say about aliens or the possibility of life elsewhere?

I like your theory on the atoms and stuff though, but if you will just refer back to what I said earlier about free thought, you'll notice I said "....not influenced by someONE else" ( I didn't say someTHING else). Your attempt at trying to combine physics and free thought deserves a lot of praise for trying to look outside the box.

I have a religion??? Whoa...when did this happen? Let's see....I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness since birth up until I left at 16 years old, then I was baptized as a Ukrainian Catholic (only because my first wife wanted to baptize our son because she thought he would go to hell otherwise....and in order to do that I had to be baptized first - what a crock) and shortly after that I called that church back to have it annulled seeing as I didn't want to be recognized as belonging to that faith....or any religion for that matter. Don't you find it weird how someone can just walk into some of these churches and get baptized on a whim while having absolutely no idea how their belief system works? I'm not an atheist because I still think that there is the possibility of a god (unlikely...but maybe). Who am 'I' to say if there is really a god or not...its too difficult to prove. So let's reiterate...I'm not a J.W., I'm not a Ukrainian Catholic, I'm not an Atheist...what I am is Agnostic. Is there a 'religion' set up somewhere that caters to my kind?

I'm curious as to your definition of 'irrational' and why you used that term?

Can you elaborate a little more on the last couple things you were trying to say? What irony? Are you trying to take what I said about 'looking for answers' and 'me being cautious towards computer viruses' and then attempting to point out some kind of irony between those two statements?

ilhas said...

Mr. David Wood: You still did not answer my question.

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Ilhas--

We did not actively proselytize - people came up to us and asked questions.

Even if we had actively proselytized, no one had to pay for proselytizing. People have to pay for booth space, not for proselytizing.

-Nabeel

ilhas said...

but you're missing the point. People paid the chamber of commerce to proselytize and for the opportunity to use the Dearborn Festival as a venue to reach a large audience.

you all should stop being so arrogant. You know the rules and they are quite obvious to the majority who practice common sense. You did not pay the chamber to participate in the Festival which means you don't get to participate in push or pull sales?

I would definitely say that if you think Jesus condones your behavior or would agree with اخلاءكم then you are seriously mistaken. Stay humble and honest my friends. Your actions were dishonorable and an embarrassment to Christianity.

lyndon420 said...

@Nabeel, David and the rest of Acts17:

Keep up the good work. You are very inspiring.

John Lollard said...

"Your actions were dishonorable and an embarrassment to Christianity."

May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains.
- 2 Timothy 1:16

Love in Christ,
JL

Isabelle Isadora said...

My understanding was that your group was told (by the court perhaps or the police) that you were NOT to film at the festival and you did it anyway. You are making it very difficult for those of us who come to the festival to minister to Arabs by showing the love of Jesus through our service. When you act the way you do, the Arab people lump all Christians together thinking that we're all agressive and "in your face". As far as your comment "...tell us what you think would happen if Jesus were to show up at the Dearborn Arab Festival". I think that Jesus would sit down and eat with them (Matthew) or visit them at their home (Zaccheus)and serve them (woman caught in adultery; woman with issue of blood; blind men/paralytic healed; Mary & Martha etc...) and SHOW them how much He loved them (dying on the cross). He would have formed a relationship with them.

David Wood said...

Hi Isabelle,

If that was your understanding, you're mistaken. We were never told not to record. Indeed, we have to record, as so many people at the Arab Fest are willing to lie about us.

Keep in mind that people wanted to kill Jesus due to the things he said. He called people the children of the devil. Do you really think that all he did was have meals with people?

And please read the Book of Acts. Riots started when Paul showed up. People obviously didn't like his message. Would you condemn him?

With all of that said, we didn't insult anyone, raise our voices, harass anyone. You might want to learn the facts before you condemn your fellow Christians, who have been falsely accused and persecuted.

axisoflogos said...

@lyndon420 said - Let's see....I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness since birth up until I left at 16 years old, then I was baptized as a Ukrainian Catholic (only because my first wife wanted to baptize our son because she thought he would go to hell otherwise....and in order to do that I had to be baptized first - what a crock) and shortly after that I called that church back to have it annulled seeing as I didn't want to be recognized as belonging to that faith....or any religion for that matter.

@axisoflogos replies - I really appreciate the transparency of providing your personal experience. Did you tell your son 'maybe' about this matter of religion?

@lyndon420 said - Don't you find it weird how someone can just walk into some of these churches and get baptized on a whim while having absolutely no idea how their belief system works?

@axisoflogos replies - Yes.

@lyndon420 said - I'm not an atheist because I still think that there is the possibility of a god (unlikely...but maybe). Who am 'I' to say if there is really a god or not...its too difficult to prove. So let's reiterate...I'm not a J.W., I'm not a Ukrainian Catholic, I'm not an Atheist...what I am is Agnostic.

@axisoflogos replies - OK, thanks for being clear. It is very philosophically difficult to be an Agnostic. It contains a self-refuting (irrational) proposition.

@lyndon420 said - Is there a 'religion' set up somewhere that caters to my kind?

@axisoflogos replies - Attempting to be funny with this next bit: step outside your door. Most people do not think consistently or to the conclusion of their beliefs.

@lyndon420 said - I'm curious as to your definition of 'irrational' and why you used that term?

@axisoflogos replies - Agnostic articles of faith contain some form of the proposition that it is impossible to know anything about God ('...its too difficult to prove...'); a statement which happens to be a proposition of knowledge about God.

@lyndon420 said - Can you elaborate a little more on the last couple things you were trying to say? What irony? Are you trying to take what I said about 'looking for answers' and 'me being cautious towards computer viruses' and then attempting to point out some kind of irony between those two statements?

@axisoflogos replies - Please allow me to skip this response, at least for now, as I have some other things to attend to and constructing the explanation will be longish.

axisoflogos said...

Hello lyndon420. Thanks for engaging...

@lyndon420 said - How do I know when I am not being influenced by others? Easy...I don't listen to them...lol. For example, when someone tells me a movie sucks I don't immediately take their word for it....I see it for myself and then I make 'my own' conclusions. I don't see how having an open mind makes someone 'rebellious'.

@axisoflogos replies - I was asking clarifying questions...I am still not sure I have you dialed in. Let me try your patience with few other silly hypotheticals:

(1) Someone tells you that skydiving without a parachute is fatal. You don't immediately take their word for it, but see for yourself and then make your own conclusions.

(2) Somebody tells you that people evolved from single-celled organisms. You don't immediately take their word for it, but see for yourself and then make your own conclusions.

(3) Somebody tells you that all religions are the same - like different flavors of ice cream. You don't immediately take their word for it, but evaluate each position and then make your own conclusions.

@lyndon420 said - Yes...I did form my opinions on aliens without any influence from other people. When I was about 8 years old I was looking up at the stars and I asked my dad if there was other planets with life on them, and my dad said, "Well....what do you think"? I said that I think there could be, to which he replied, "Well....maybe you're right". You'll notice my use of the word 'maybe'? He didn't say yes, he didn't say no....he left it up to me to draw my own conclusions.

@axisoflogos replies - So you left this as a 'maybe'? Really no decision here, correct? So your position is maybe aliens and maybe God? You are just frustrated that more pastors don't want to say 'maybe' to one or both?

@lyndon420 said - And just because there are other people in the world who happen to believe in the possibility of aliens, it doesn't mean that I drew my conclusions from what they may think on the matter. What do your bibles say about aliens or the possibility of life elsewhere?

@axisoflogos replies - Well, there are those Von Daniken types of theories floating around. We could also discuss heaven and hell and angels...

@lyndon420 said - I like your theory on the atoms and stuff though, but if you will just refer back to what I said earlier about free thought, you'll notice I said "....not influenced by someONE else" ( I didn't say someTHING else). Your attempt at trying to combine physics and free thought deserves a lot of praise for trying to look outside the box.

@axisoflogos replies - How does a collection of atoms become personal - a someONE? How does a collection of atoms think outside the box? What else besides the laws of matter can you draw on? How can one collection of atoms operating only on materialistic principles be right and another wrong?

@lyndon420 said - I have a religion??? Whoa...when did this happen?

@axisoflogos replies - We are working on your articles of faith :)

Steve said...

Isn't it sad when purportedly Christian missionaries intentionally break the civil law. You could have passed out that literature 5blcosk from the fairground and not been arrested -- you willfully chose to disobey the law. Law (like rulers) is one of God's good gifts to a sinful world. Your arrogant and intentional disregard for it -- while yet professing to be Christian is upsetting.

mkvine said...

Isabelle,

You said: "My understanding was that your group was told (by the court perhaps or the police) that you were NOT to film at the festival"

Really? Please tell me that this statement is supported by some kind of evidence and NOT by assertions based on your "understanding." So far, what I've seen on this blog is that such "understandings" are not supported by any evidence whatsoever. But you wouldn't commit this mistake, would you?

Also, I didn't know that filming at a public even was against the law. Could you please point out where such a law exists? I would really appreciate it if you could provide evidence for your claims. Thanks.

David Wood said...

Steve said: "Isn't it sad when purportedly Christian missionaries intentionally break the civil law. You could have passed out that literature 5blcosk from the fairground and not been arrested -- you willfully chose to disobey the law. Law (like rulers) is one of God's good gifts to a sinful world. Your arrogant and intentional disregard for it -- while yet professing to be Christian is upsetting."

What's more upsetting is that virtually all of our critics have to misrepresent what happened, just before telling us how unChristlike we are.

FACT: We weren't arrested for distributing anything. We were arrested for having a peaceful discussion on a public sidewalk. Do you really agree with the Dearborn Police on this one? Do you believe that it's okay to arrest someone for having a conversation? Is it against the Bible to have discussions? Have you read the Book of Acts?

FACT: On a different day, some of us were going to hand out Bibles OUTSIDE the festival. We had no clue that this wasn't allowed. When we were informed of the rule, we obeyed. So are you condemning us because we weren't aware of a rule? Is it against Christianity to be unaware of a rule?

hugh watt said...

lyndon420 said:

"Wow....so much confusion and opinions from people who claim to be from the same general religion...and you all probably read from the same book too....lol. To me religion = confusion ( I guess that's why we have a hundred or so different favours to choose from - just pick your flavour). I had my taste of religion until I was 16, but when my questions couldn't get answers from those that were a part of that faith their whole lives....I realized that it was time for me to use my ability of free thought to guide me instead of resorting back to 'the book' that was apparently causing all my confusion in the first place."

Hi 420, you've said some things that are confusing. You seem confused by many things, and have gone down the agnostic route as though that's the best option. You said;

"Oh and by the way...a lot of you seem to be drifting way off topic when it comes down to what this particular thread is about."

You also have been doing this!

"Step away from your bibles for a few minutes and let your brains tell you what the answers are. 'GOD' gave you brains...use them."

Do you say this because of your life experiences? Should those of us who are satisfied with the answers we have follow your "free thought" which gives you no ultimate answer?
I can understand why being an ex J.W confused you, but that doesn't mean Christ is not The Answer.

lyndon420 said...

@axisoflogos - No...I never had the chance to tell my son 'maybe' on anything....he was taken from me at 2 years old by his psychopathic mother and disappeared for about a year. But yes...if I would have been given the chance to talk with him, I would have made sure to point out the many possibilities that are/were available to him so he didn't feel pressured in one belief.


No one ever had to tell me that skydiving without a parachute was a bad idea....I learned the concept of gravity when I first fell off my tricycle. Let's try not to confuse 'common sense' with 'influence from others'.

If I had a way to actually see for myself how single-celled organisms multiplied I would....the microscope I had as a kid obviously wasn't powerful enough. I know what you are trying to say with this comment, but at least it the best description we have (so far) from people who have actually devoted a lot of time to research it. I will put more stock in that explanation than I will in the bibles explanation of how god created Adam from dust and then blew into his mouth, and then having to take a rib from him to make Eve. Why two different methods of creating a human?

When it comes to aliens, I am more inclined to believe in their existence before god...based on what I have seen first hand growing up and even just a few years ago. When you are suddenly woken up at 3:00 am to witness a UFO above your house and then watch it descend to approx 100 feet above your backyard, it tends to add to the possibility of their existence. How about when as a child I was visiting my aunt and uncle on their farm only to be woken up at around 5:00 am to the sound of their cattle going nuts. We all look out the window and see a bright blue light hovering about 20 feet above them for about five minutes...then it takes off faster than anything you thought possible? I believe in the possibility of a higher power, but I doubt mankinds perception of 'god'.

No one ever told me that all religions were the same....what they did say was most religions read from the same book only to come up very different beliefs. Strange that such a 'perfect' book can lead to such mass misinterpretation.

I have no interest in talking about heaven, hell, angels or demons. That will be revealed to me when I die...maybe.

I am actually very philosophical....which to me makes it very easy to be agnostic.

lyndon420 said...

@Hugh watt - What have I said that confuses you? As an agnostic, many possibilities are available to me. A lot of us feel the need to believe in something (like a religion) just so we can sleep at night knowing (or thinking) that we are on the right path in life. For me...I have the luxury of knowing that I didn't choose any path to guide me. There are many religions out there...are they all correct? If not, then is any one correct? If only one is correct, does that make everyone else fools for believing in the wrong religion? Do we then blame 'god' for creating all the confusion at Babylon instead of just stopping the construction of the temple to the heavens? If god aided Moses with the parting of the sea, why couldn't he have just demolished the temple every time they tried to build it? Seems to me that god went to a lot more trouble and caused a lot more confusion than was necessary. Heck...he could have just entered the master builders dreams when he was asleep and talked him out of it someway.

You are right about me veering off topic. Sorry everyone.

You said: "Do you say this because of your life experiences? Should those of us who are satisfied with the answers we have follow your "free thought" which gives you no ultimate answer? I can understand why being an ex J.W confused you, but that doesn't mean Christ is not The Answer."

I said that because I have questions that a book written thousands of years ago can't answer. No...I am not forcing anyone to abandon the answers they already have to start thinking like me. Do whatever works for you and keeps you at peace with your beliefs...thats what I do.

What do you mean by the comment being an ex jw is confusing me? Are you saying that if I joined your faith I wouldn't be confused anymore?

If Jesus is the answer, what does he have to say about aliens and the possibility of their existence? I asked this question earlier with no response..."What do your bibles say about the possibility of life (intelligent or otherwise) on other planets?"

lyndon420 said...

@hugh watt -

In my defense (after re-reading my first posts) aside from pointing out the obvious confusion between people of the same faith, I didn't start veering off topic until people started asking me questions that took me off topic.

axisoflogos said...

More Glorious Off-Topic Dialog and Thinking Inside the ComBox

@lyndon420 said - No...I never had the chance to tell my son 'maybe' on anything....he was taken from me at 2 years old by his psychopathic mother and disappeared for about a year. But yes...if I would have been given the chance to talk with him, I would have made sure to point out the many possibilities that are/were available to him so he didn't feel pressured in one belief.

@axisoflogos replies - I am sorry you had such a horrible experience. So, given the chance, would you pressure your son away specifically from JW or Ukrainian Catholic faiths?

@lyndon420 said - No one ever had to tell me that skydiving without a parachute was a bad idea....I learned the concept of gravity when I first fell off my tricycle. Let's try not to confuse 'common sense' with 'influence from others'.

@axisoflogos replies - It is common sense to me to have a belief in God. The Universe is filled with evidence of his eternal power and divine nature. The Universe is an influence from another person I humbly accept.

@lyndon420 said - If I had a way to actually see for myself how single-celled organisms multiplied I would....the microscope I had as a kid obviously wasn't powerful enough. I know what you are trying to say with this comment, but at least it the best description we have (so far)...

@axisoflogos replies - An Article of Faith.

@lyndon420 said - ...from people who have actually devoted a lot of time to research it.

@axisoflogos replies - Ah, you trust scientific pastors.

@lyndon420 said - I will put more stock in that explanation than I will in the bibles explanation of how god created Adam from dust and then blew into his mouth, and then having to take a rib from him to make Eve.

@axisoflogos replies - Why? In the scientific explanation, you have no witness to the event. Instead, you have nothing becoming something, disorder becoming order, inorganic becoming organic, unintelligent becoming intelligent, the impersonal becoming personal and the amoral becoming moral with only the special sauce of time and chance. Yeah, totally logical, right.

@lyndon420 said - Why two different methods of creating a human?

@axisoflogos replies - Why not? Why two people to make a baby? Why Abbot and Costello? The Designer gets to do it any way he wants to. There are some theological reasons, but I don't perceive you are that interested in them. Is there a philosophical principle here you would like to present?

@lyndon420 said - When it comes to aliens, I am more inclined to believe in their existence before god...based on what I have seen first hand growing up and even just a few years ago. When you are suddenly woken up at 3:00 am to witness a UFO above your house and then watch it descend to approx 100feet above your backyard, it tends to add to the possibility of their existence. How about when as a child I was visiting my aunt and uncle on their farm only to be woken up at around 5:00 am to the sound of their cattle going nuts. We all look out the window and see a bright blue light hovering about 20 feet above them for about five minutes...then it takes off faster than anything you thought possible?

@axisoflogos replies - I have had a few inexplicable experiences also, but what of them? Sensory experience is trivial. Why would I want to make a religion out of that?

axisoflogos said...

@lyndon420 said - I believe in the possibility of a higher power, but I doubt mankinds perception of 'god'.

@axisoflogos replies - Where would a higher power come from in a materialistic universe? What would the relation between the aliens and the higher power be?

@lyndon420 said - No one ever told me that all religions were the same....what they did say was most religions read from the same book only to come up very different beliefs.

@axisoflogos replies - Do Scientists always agree? Is there pure consistency in thought about global warming, cold fusion, aliens, evolution...? Is the scientific method even rational? Why did scientists attack Galileo for his theories?

@lyndon420 said - Strange that such a 'perfect' book can lead to such mass misinterpretation.

@axisoflogos replies - Not really, imperfect interpreters. The traditions of men, the pride of man, the fallen intellect of man, influence of demons, outright sinfulness, etc.

@lyndon420 said (elsewhere) - If Jesus is the answer, what does he have to say about aliens and the possibility of their existence?

@axisoflogos replies - Have you stopped beating your girlfriend?

@lyndon420 said - I have no interest in talking about heaven, hell, angels or demons. That will be revealed to me when I die...maybe.

@axisoflogos replies - So you want a very specific extra-terrestrial life discussion - one that fits inside your agnostic thought box.

@lyndon420 said (elsewhere) - What do your bibles say about the possibility of life (intelligent or otherwise) on other planets?"

@axisoflogos replies - '...And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth' (Heb 11:13).

Why are planets important? Maybe there are purely space creatures. Maybe there are other-dimensional creatures. Think outside the box! However, the Bible says "[The apostles] have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men' (1 Cor 4:9) and that 'He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe' (Eph 4:10). Maybe there is something else, maybe not - does not matter to me. God did not mention it, so I can say that it is unimportant on this side of life. I mentioned Von Daniken before - maybe he could be your science pastor.

@lyndon420 said - I am actually very philosophical....which to me makes it very easy to be agnostic.

@axisoflogos replies - Even aliens would find your agnostic philosophy illogical. There was some meat for you to enjoy when I asked you to explain how a collection of atoms becomes personal. I haven't seen any response to that. You make statements using 'common sense' as authoritative but paradoxically elevate 'thinking outside the box' to a virtue.

I will restate that most of humanity gets uncomfy approaching the logical conclusion of their personal philosophies. What if there are aliens? So what? How will that benefit you when you are dead? How does it heal you from the pain of broken relationships? Have you considered that speculation about aliens preoccupies your mind so you can avoid wrestling with some internal philosophical tensions?

lyndon420 said...

No...I wouldn't pressure my son to stay away from any specific religion. Nor would I insist on him being agnostic....it's his choice to believe whatever he wants to believe. But if he was to ask me what my opinions were, I would give them.

I believe it's possible that you and I both believe in the same entity. I look at it as a higher power that we have little knowledge on, and you look at it according to how the bible depicts it...right down to the very sex of this entity by referring to it as a 'he'. Why it even has a gender is beyond me...unless you feel it has to be male just because society associates the dominate being in a species to be the male? (With the exception of a few species on earth ( for example ) where the female eats the male after she gives birth). So...if god is a 'he', is there a 'she' god to compliment him? Is 'he' the only one of his kind? Again...it boils down to believing whatever works best for you.

There is a fine line between fact and fiction. And for me...that same line resides between fact and faith. One of them is proven to be true while the other is...well...'hopefully true'.

You said - "Why? In the scientific explanation, you have no witness to the event."

My response to this is - "Did any of the people who wrote the bible witness the creation of Adam and Eve, and then see Eve talking to that nasty snake that was trying to convince her she could be as powerful as god?" ( You want to talk logical? )

You sparked some curiosity in regards to those theological reasons you mentioned...would you be willing to share some with me?

I worship nothing...well I would make an exception if I had an authentic Shelby Cobra sitting in my parking spot. You know...the one with the sweet little rollbar behind the driver seat? Ok I admit that was a bit silly, but really...so is saying that I am part of a religion. By definition a religion is associated to the belief in a god....which I have little of. To suggest that sightings of aliens could be hallucinations is something I am used to hearing from devote followers of the bible.

( I will address your 2nd batch of questions tomorrow after I get some much needed sleep. See you back here tomorrow, or Monday at the latest )

kinilaw said...

David Wood:
By being Christian (as many are)?

Kinilaw: If you are saying that there were many other professing Christians who were at that festival, then that only underscores what Laura was saying. You were being disruptive, or at least, the Muslims perceived you to be there in a threatening manner which is to say they can tell from your questions that you were not a "seeker" but an infidel who was there to push your "infidel" faith on them. Because so far, if there were many Christians in that festival, your group is the only one that is complaining of having been harassed.

kinilaw said...

I have discontinued receiving comments from these threads because, like many things in a discussion, it has veered totally out of topic with the discussions going on between lyndon and axis, but I would like to add something to this exchange between David Wood and Laura in which David said. Because this is a bit lengthy, I will post in parts:

"How did we "disrupt a private festival"? By being there (as thousands were)?"

kinilaw (me): In a discussion board I am a member of, I have questioned WHY you were there in the first place. WHY should a devout, practicing, professing Christian be at a decidedly heathen festival ? Where in the Bible can you point to one single instance when the Savior DELIBERATELY attended a pagan, Roman, Greek, heathen festival ?
Where is the instance in the Bible when Paul, Peter, John, James, or Jude, or even Aquila, or Timothy, or Lydia, or John Mark, deliberately "set their face" to go into or be at such a kind of festival ?

kinilaw said...

David Wood:
Please define what we did that was disruptive,

Kinilaw: (1)One or a couple of you looked Muslim or Arabic, (2) You were from Dearborn youselves and therefore known or may have been known to many there, (3) I couldn't point to it now but in one of your blogs or statements I read (youtube ?) there had been an incident the previous year.

Given the above, your very presence becomes disruptive. The muslim looking Christian is most likely there to try and convert some people, instead of them converting others. That was the point of the festival, right ? That was why they had that sign, "ask". They were looking for possible converts to Islam. You were there to block that purpose by preaching your gospel over theirs.


David Wood:
And then read the Gospels and tell us what you think would happen if Jesus were to show up at the Dearborn Arab Festival."

Kinilaw: and therein is the rub. you think, as many Christians do, especially those of the semi-Pelagian or Arminian streak, that they know what Jesus would do so much so that they speculate that their actions and intent are square and smack on with actions and intents that Jesus would have had and done.

I'll tell you what Jesus would have done. He would have called destruction right there and then on a blatant manifestation of ungodliness and sinful rebellion against the character and holiness of God.

Where do I base this ?

On Scripture that says Jesus overturned the money tables and whipped the Jews out of the temple.

Now, you tell us, from Scripture, where Jesus would have done the equivalent of what you did ? Tape the "harassment", and picture the police as being under the thumb of Muslims ?

kinilaw said...

David Wood:
By recording (which many were)?

Kinilaw: again, if there were others recording that festival underscores the fact that the Muslims perceived your group a threat. I read somewhere in your blog/s that you've been there last year, too. Maybe they now recognize you and know what, in their perception, you're really up to, eh ?

kinilaw said...

David Wood: By preaching the Gospel (which we're commanded to do)?

Kinilaw: Come on, man. Just because we're believers in Christ doesn't mean we are to be naive. You weren't there to preach the gospel. You were there to confront their beliefs with yours, then you were there to underscore the fact that Muslims were taking over Dearborn (and I agree with you that this shouldn't be so), and you were there to record how authorities were kowtowing to Muslims in detriment to the Christian foundation of this country.
The true gospel preacher will humbly take whatever is dished out to them by the opposition and leave everything to God, not publish what happened in YouTube.
I started a small church in the middle of a poverty stricken depressed neighborhood in a heavily Roman Catholic section of my birth city in the Philippines, and, initially, our roof were pelted by stones, feces thrown into the middle of our meeting from outside by drunk Catholic defenders. Everytime I passed by a particularly offensive, obnoxious neighborhood toughie would cuss me out with words I would've made him eat "in the old days". They didn't know who they were messing with, but I knew who I was, and the Lord knew who I was, and I know who I am now, and so does the Lord, and I know He promised "vengeance is mine, I will repay".
And how He repaid.
Everyone in the household of this particularly obnoxious individual became converts and members of the church, and some even sang in the choir, and he was so stricken with disease he would run out of breath just walking from his bed to the living room.

lyndon420 said...

@kinilaw - Acts17 is targeted by muslims because they know they are seeking answers and want to record their answers. If it wasn't for the fact that the muslim faith is extremely violent, I doubt David and his crew would be so determined to learn their true intentions. Don't forget that the muslims are determined to dominate the world. Have you tried talking to any muslims about their faith? I have been meet with resistance and aggression from every single muslim that I have talked with. One time I was actually able to convince a Muslim to give me a copy of their Quran, but about a week later this person became very agitated and demanded that I give it back once they realized that I was only interested in examining it instead of joining their faith. I'm really kicking myself for giving it back, but at the same time I felt that if I didn't....I was likely going to have my head handed to me.

@axisoflogos- I haven't forgotten about you. I have a lot on my plate today. When I get some spare time I will continue our very interesting conversation.

hugh watt said...

lyndon420:

Since this topic is different to the main thread i've replied to your post on Wood vs Loftus debate. You may want to watch the debate.

lyndon420 said...

Just thought that I should share the following link on how the muslims that are working in the government want the Christian prayers to stop, or at the very least take turns praying to each others god. Would you pray to your god one week, and then pray to the Buddhist's god the next week, and then pray to Muhammad the week after that?

http://www.news4jax.com/news/24011254/detail.html

lyndon420 said...

@hugh watt - I like your idea of taking this topic to another thread.... I didn't notice all the different topics that are available.

@axisoflogos - If you don't mind, I'll take this conversation over to the thread that Hugh suggested "Wood vs. Loftus - Does god exist?". I'll be tackling your questions first.

Louie said...

You want to educate yourselves as to the true meaning of Islam? Read ISLAM and TERRORISM by Dr. Mark A. Gabriel (he changed his name to protect his own life). Former professor of Islamic history at Al-Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt. Americans take a while to "wake up". When they do .. they REALLY do. I believe they are waking up NOW. Keep an eye on the November elections ... and on to the year 2012. Obama is a one termer. Americans are about to get pissed. I am "old" .. too old to "see it". But, the younger generation will have to physically fight if they are to hold on to their country. All this political correctness crap is about to go out the door.

mkvine said...

Kinilaw,

You said: "How did we "disrupt a private festival"? By being there (as thousands were)?"

kinilaw (me): In a discussion board I am a member of, I have questioned WHY you were there in the first place. WHY should a devout, practicing, professing Christian be at a decidedly heathen festival ? Where in the Bible can you point to one single instance when the Savior DELIBERATELY attended a pagan, Roman, Greek, heathen festival ?
Where is the instance in the Bible when Paul, Peter, John, James, or Jude, or even Aquila, or Timothy, or Lydia, or John Mark, deliberately "set their face" to go into or be at such a kind of festival?"

My response: In other words, you can't answer the question. David asked HOW did they disrupt the festival. Your answer...nothing. In fact, you bring up a red herring of asking why they were there. I simply ask, why CAN'T they be there? Then you ask to point to a verse where Jesus deliberately attended a heathen festival. I simply ask, can you show us a verse where Jesus deliberately DID NOT attend a heathen festival? If the scriptures are silent about this, then I don't think you should be making authoritative statements about it, because if you do, then you are just begging the question :)

mkvine said...

Kinilaw,

You said:

"David Wood:By being Christian (as many are)?

Kinilaw: If you are saying that there were many other professing Christians who were at that festival, then that only underscores what Laura was saying. You were being disruptive, or at least, the Muslims perceived you to be there in a threatening manner which is to say they can tell from your questions that you were not a "seeker" but an infidel who was there to push your "infidel" faith on them. Because so far, if there were many Christians in that festival, your group is the only one that is complaining of having been harassed."

My response: First of all, you again mentioned that they were being "disruptive" but you failed to explain what exactly they were doing to be "disruptive." Please provide your evidence and not just assume. Second of all, you make the MISTAKE of saying that David was being "disruptive" by his "questions." As David has mentioned MULTIPLE times already (in case you haven't been paying attention), they DID NOT approach the Muslims first. They waited until the Muslims came to them first, and THEN they talked to them. If Muslims are so easily offended by getting their questions answered, then why would they ask questions in the first place? Additionally, what about asking questions warrants an arrest? Is it illegal? Also, if the answers truly offended the Muslims, then that means that they have a very weak and sensitive faith, maybe they should restrain themselves from asking questions if they are going to get emotional about it. In regards to other Christians not being harrassed, David already answered this by showing how ridiculous this objection is in an earlier article entitled "Responses to Common Questions." Maybe you should take a little bit of time looking at what David has to say before you accuse him of something you either don't understand or misrepresent.

mkvine said...

Kinilaw,

You said:

"David Wood: By preaching the Gospel (which we're commanded to do)?
Kinilaw: Come on, man. Just because we're believers in Christ doesn't mean we are to be naive. You weren't there to preach the gospel. You were there to confront their beliefs with yours, then you were there to underscore the fact that Muslims were taking over Dearborn (and I agree with you that this shouldn't be so), and you were there to record how authorities were kowtowing to Muslims in detriment to the Christian foundation of this country."

My response: You said they weren't there to preach the Gospel but instead to "confront" the Muslims' beliefs with theirs. Um, on what evidence are you basing this off? How is being approached by Muslims and having THEM ask you questions being "confrontational?" Is answering a few questions really being confrontational? Is this something to go to jail for? Why are Muslims asking questions if they don't want to hear the answers? If they can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen. And they did preach to Muslims...by answering their questions, so I don't know where you get that they were not there to preach.

You said "you were there to record how authorities were kowtowing to Muslims in detriment to the Christian foundation of this country."

So exposing corruption is a bad thing? So I guess exposing corruption deserves jail time. I didn't know that...I guess we should all turn a blind eye when we see injustices.

mkvine said...

Kinilaw,

You said: "The true gospel preacher will humbly take whatever is dished out to them by the opposition and leave everything to God, not publish what happened in YouTube."

The fact is that last year when David et al was assaulted, they could have pressed charges and have gotten at least three people in jail. But they decided not to do that and let it go. They didn't wan't to get anyone in trouble. How is that for humbleness? Regarding not posting things on Youtube...why not? Says who? Are you telling us to deliberately HIDE injustices? Are you telling us that standing up for equal rights and exposing corruption is a BAD thing?

mkvine said...

Kinilaw,

You said:

"David Wood:By recording (which many were)?
Kinilaw: again, if there were others recording that festival underscores the fact that the Muslims perceived your group a threat. I read somewhere in your blog/s that you've been there last year, too. Maybe they now recognize you and know what, in their perception, you're really up to, eh?"

You obviously have no idea of what happened last year, do you? Let me get you up to speed on that. Last year, David et al went to the Dearborn festival. There was a booth that said, "You got questions, we got answers." Nabeel decided to ask some questions while Mary Jo recorded (which is perfectly legal despite if Muslims don't like that). At first, some Muslims didn't like that they were being recorded, but finally, a guy which appeared to be their Imam said that its OK if they recorded. Recap, they were there to ask a question since the booth INVITED people to ask questions. Secondly, they got permission to record from the people at the booth. Now, what went wrong was that the security guards did not want them to record DESPITE the people at the booth being OK by it, and DESPITE it being perfectly LEGAL. The security guards went on to PHYSICALLY assault David, Nabeel and Mary Jo. This encounter with the security guards physically assaulting them was recorded and put on Youtube. Apparently, the security guards and a lot of Muslims at Dearborn were embarrassed by this behavior and even threatened to kill or physically harm David and crew if they came again. Well, they can threaten all they want, David and the rest of them will not bow down to fear, intimidation, manipulation and oppression, they will stand up for what is right. In this recent event at Dearborn, Acts 17 took extra precautions and decided to deliberately avoid approaching people. They instead waited to see if someone would approach them first, but even then, they got arrested for it. I'm not sure if you think that standing up for yourself is a good thing...please let me know.

mkvine said...

Kinilaw,

You said:

"David Wood:
Please define what we did that was disruptive,
Kinilaw: (1)One or a couple of you looked Muslim or Arabic, (2) You were from Dearborn youselves and therefore known or may have been known to many there, (3) I couldn't point to it now but in one of your blogs or statements I read (youtube ?) there had been an incident the previous year."

My response: Your "(1)" is very discriminatory and prejudice. Just because someone looks Muslim or Arab, they are being "disruptive?" That's an amazing admission by you. Your "(2)" is completely false. I don't know if your ignorant of that or are deliberately being deceptive. David and Nabeel are NOT from Dearborn, I don't know where you go that from. But hey, maybe they just happened to move right before the day they went to Dearborn (sarcasm). I already explained you "(3)" refer to the above post.

mkvine said...

Kinilaw,

You said "Given the above, your very presence becomes disruptive."

My response: Given the above you still haven't shown how they were disruptive. In fact, all you have shown is you are a prejudice and discriminative person.

You said "The muslim looking Christian is most likely there to try and convert some people, instead of them converting others."

My response: Which proves my point that you are prejudice. You pick on the ex Muslim and form speculative and baseless opinions about him. You should take a Cultural and religious diversity course.

You said: "That was the point of the festival, right ? That was why they had that sign, "ask". They were looking for possible converts to Islam. You were there to block that purpose by preaching your gospel over theirs."

My response:
I'm not sure which "sign" you are talking about, please elaborate, I'm sort of getting the vibe that this is another misrepresentation, so please explain. It's amazing how you hold double standards. Both Muslims and Christians at the Festival were sharing their beliefs, and yet, you only point David et. al and say, No they shouldn't do that, how dare they! What's wrong with the picture here.

mkvine said...

Kinilaw,

You said:

"David Wood:
And then read the Gospels and tell us what you think would happen if Jesus were to show up at the Dearborn Arab Festival."
Kinilaw: and therein is the rub. you think, as many Christians do, especially those of the semi-Pelagian or Arminian streak, that they know what Jesus would do so much so that they speculate that their actions and intent are square and smack on with actions and intents that Jesus would have had and done.
I'll tell you what Jesus would have done. He would have called destruction right there and then on a blatant manifestation of ungodliness and sinful rebellion against the character and holiness of God.
Where do I base this ?
On Scripture that says Jesus overturned the money tables and whipped the Jews out of the temple.

Now, you tell us, from Scripture, where Jesus would have done the equivalent of what you did ? Tape the "harassment", and picture the police as being under the thumb of Muslims?"

My response:

Wow! I love the INCONSISTENCY here. You condemn David and crew, not for yelling at anyone, not for condemning anyone, not for turning tables over, but for.....answering questions. Imagine if David and crew actually did what Jesus did, you probably would have called out for their execution. You are not very consistent. Oh, and by the way, scripture doesn't say that Jesus "whipped the Jews." You might not want to misrepresent scripture next time, you know...you tend to lose more credibility when you do that ;)

God'sHeartBeat4Truth said...

http://www.cityofdearborn.org/images/stories/PDF/Government/Mayor/mayorletter07-09-2010.pdf

PLEEEEASE READ THIS LETTER THAT GIVES THE WHOLE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN DEARBORN, MI. IT'S SO REVEALING THAT ACTS17 IS CREATING PROPAGANDA TO INSITE THE HEARTS OF AMERICA....BY LEAVING OUT THE WHOLE STORY.

GOD BLESS THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE.....ONLY FOUND IN CHRIST JESUS.....NOT OUR OWN AGENDAS......BUT IN THE AGENDAS THAT GOD CREATES IN HIS WORD......TO LOVE AND CARE FOR ONE ANOTHER......NOT THINKING MORE HIGHLY OF OURSELVES THAN WE OUGHT.

THE HEARTS OF MAN TRADED JESUS FOR BARABAS....WHO ONLY WANTED TO INSITE STRIFE RATHER THAN BE A PEACE MAKER LIKE JESUS.

LET'S BE CAREFUL TO NOT DO THE SAME THING.

Anthony Rogers said...

God'sHeartBeat,

The article from the Mayor which you have accepted as Gospel truth over against the testimony of Christian brothers has been responded to here.

By the way, when the people chose Barabas over Jesus, even his own disciples had deserted him. It seems that for many Christians this is the example to emulate rather than the disciples' post-pentacost example: When Christians are jailed and subjected to public scorn, desert them.

I hope you consider joining us "outside the camp" where our Lord was crucified. We will be waiting.

Sir Pelvit Blunk said...

This was brought to my attention in class this morning. As I made note of knowing these people, as my siblings in Christ, a muslim girl next to me started being rude and felt as if she had to defend her position as being a muslim.

Then throughout the duration of the class, she continued to be rude, boasting her sin like it was a great defense.

I'm glad this happened in Dearborn. PRAISE GOD!!!

Jesus said this would happen, it's happening, I'm glad and will continue to preach Jesus crucified for the sins of mankind.

I am in line on the front lines supporting you guys all the way.

God Bless You!!!

Our work is righteous in the sight of the Lord.

Sir Pelvit Blunk said...

Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Fatima Hassan said...

Still, I don't see anyone answering this question. WHY were other christians allowed to preech as nabeel admitted himself in a video. Why wern't all the preechers who did what you were doing arrested? Or am i missing something? Please feel free to correct me. Thanks.
- Fatima Hassan

David Wood said...

Hi Fatima,

You can get the answer to that in our full summary here:

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/12/acts-17-apologetics-in-dearborn.html

Fatima Hassan said...

First off,"The Muslim security guards (one of whom had "Hezbollah" tattooed down his arm) were using the no-distribution rule to harass and persecute certain Christians." I don't see why you use these muslims as an example when they can't even follow the proper teachings of islam. C'mon dude, why are you using muslims who have tatoos and i hope you know islam teaches that tatoos are haram. So if they can't follow even that or they have ear pearcings, doesn't this show you how little respect they have for God's religon?

Second "Ironically, Nabeel was asking a question about Surah 9:29 of the Qur'an, which calls for the subjugation of non-Muslims" In Islamic Law there is a tax for muslims and a tax for non muslims. If any non muslim isn't following the state's rules and paying that tax, then they should be fought by the authorities. Now you know :)


Third thing "The Chamber of Commerce, or security, or the police will let you know that you have to follow their rules, even if their rules violate the Constitution" Sir, when you go somewhere you have to follow that place's rules. When you go to school for example, you can't say certain things, does this mean you don't have freedom of speech? No, so you can't say the constitution says this so I wont listen to your rules. I hope you see where I am getting at. You can't think that by them having certain rules that you shouldn't do somethings, but on the other hand you would be allowed to do it in public to other people in America, that they are somehow breaking the constitution. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Fourth thing "We thought that we were being generous by not pressing charges, and we foolishly believed that this might serve as an olive branch towards those who had assaulted us." So what did you choose if you didn't do number three or one? If you chose number 2, how did it turn out and if you didn't choose any, why NOT number 2? Seems like a good time to talk and discuss.


Fifth "However, since Muslim security guards were in charge of enforcing this rule, it was applied selectively." So how can you blam the festival and not just security, who apparently don't practice Islam well since one of them has a tatoo, or did the security change? Again, please feel free to correct me.

Sixth, "...This explains the need to invent all kinds of false claims about us in order to justify our arrests.)" You wern't following the rules, and it seems to ME, correct me if i make a mistake, that there were some muslims not following the rules and you wern't following the rules but you were arrested instead of the muslims AND you guys also. Now again, whose fault would that be? Security or the festival?

Sevnth, "case anyone is wondering, no, United States citizens do not have to obey the orders of a police officer if the officer has no right to issue the order." But if you are on someones property you follow THEIR rules correct? If you are at someones house for example and you video tape, then police comes and tells you to turn off your camera and the people who own the house , its THEIR property , agree to the police, it is required that you follow there rules, it wouldn't be illegal.



Eighth "That's the only possible justification for having Paul and me arrested, since we were simply holding video cameras." You do realize if you are in on a plot for example lets say a burglary. If you know about it or if you are in on it, you were an accessory to it.

Fatima Hassan said...

( if you got my first post like 5 times, sorry. I had problems trying it from my phone)

Anyways..
ninth- "On a horrifying note, one of the police officers in the jail told us that there are honor killings in Dearborn but that they get covered up by the police department." Any even radical could tell you a muslim shouldn't take the law into his own hand but the states. So if it WAS okay what he did, either way he shouldn't have done it so i don't know why you mentioned it. Could you explain please?

Tenth- "
They told us that we would have to walk five blocks away from the festival if we wanted to distribute copies of the Gospel. If we dared hand anything out again within five blocks of the festival, we would be taken to jail." I agree, this is a fair warning though they shouldnt have been so hostile with this warning.


Elevnth- "
According to Haytham Abi-Haydar, Josh McDowell's ministry received special privileges at the 2010 Arab Festival." Who is Haytham?


Twelth- "XXVI. LOVING MUSLIMS, CHALLENGING ISLAM" it doesn't seem to me that your group is doing that. Sam shamoun called us stone lickers. Walid shoebat, lol unfortunetly actually hopes we all start war with him so he has an excuse to nuke us. And I forgot the gentlmens name but he tells his audience he doesnt want to have a muslim pilot as if we ARE his enemies. How can you say you love us when we are continuesly insulted on your shows. How come you show us love then you insult us an example is shabir ally and sam shamoun.

My conclusion is, if you were breaking the rules and you are on there property, you were doing something wrong. Though security is at fault for not enforcing it on muslims aslo, u can't say its the festival's fault. In my opinion you should have told the police they wern't making everyone follow the rules not that you hadn't done anything wrong. Forgive me and correct me if i made a mistake any where.

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