I've brought up the issue of consistency several times. But I'd like to raise it again.
In the following passage, a man points out two alternatives for Muhammad. If Muhammad is victorious over the Quraysh, he will be remembered as the man who slaughtered his own tribesmen. If the Quraysh are victorious over him, Muhammad's followers will abandon him. Think about Abu Bakr's response:
Urwah went to the Prophet and began speaking to him. The Prophet spoke as he had spoken to Budayl. Then Urwah said: "Muhammad, tell me: if you extirpate [i.e. exterminate] your tribesmen, have you ever heard of any of the Arabs who destroyed his own race before you? And if the contrary comes to pass, by God I see both prominent people and rabble who are likely to flee and leave you." Abu Bakr said, "Go suck the clitoris of al-Lat! Would we flee and leave him?" (History of al-Tabari, Volume 8, p. 76)
Al-Lat was a goddess worshipped by Urwah (yes, this is the same al-Lat praised by Muhammad in the infamous "Satanic Verses"). Notice that Abu Bakr responds to Urwah's reasonable comment with an extraordinarily offensive insult against Urwah's religious beliefs.
What would happen if someone on this blog were to utter such an insult about Muhammad? Muslims would be shouting from the rooftops that we're offensive, bigoted, hate-filled, racist Islamophobes. Yahya Snow would go around telling people to rebuke us (as he's doing right now). And yet Abu Bakr was free to insult people's religious beliefs in the most offensive terms imaginable. Hypocrisy anyone?
You KNOW of the doubt concerning the material in the book you quoted from
Nevertheless....even if the story is accurate...it would not detract away from the fact that Muslims (according to the Quran) CANNOT insult other people's gods/idols
In any case David...if you are serious about preaching Christianity to Muslims and getting us to convert then you would not feature gratuitous insults directed at Muhammed (p) or any such offensive material which would repel Muslims from your message.
Wow. Yahya, you're either completely deceptive or you have no clue what you're talking about and shouldn't be defending Islam.
Why were Muslims told not to insult people's religions? Because people were responding by insulting Islam. So the rule was: "Don't insult other religions, because then they'll insult Allah and Muhammad." Notice that this rule wouldn't apply once Muslims are strong enough to kill people who insult Islam. That's why Abu Bakr was free to insult this man's religion. He was under the power of the Muslims. If the man had responded with insults, Abu Bakr would have chopped off his head.
If this isn't clear, consider Muhammad's command to be peaceful and tolerant. This rule was only in effect when Muslims were weak. That is, the rule was: "Be peaceful, because if we're violent, these people will slaughter us." Once people aren't a threat, and Muslims are in a position of power, the rules change.
BTW, I've never tossed around gratuitous insults against Muhammad. Do you know what "gratuitous" means? (Abu Bakr's statement about sucking al-Lat's clitoris was gratuitous. There was no need for it at all.) Posting a cartoon to show people why Muslims are killing people isn't gratuitous. It's extremely important. And any Muslim who can't handle the truth shouldn't be on this blog. (For someone who complains about it so much, you sure seem to be here most of the day.)
But let's follow your reasoning, Yahya. "David, we won't listen to your message if you do things that will offend us." Well, I don't care whether you listen to me or not. My main goal is to educate non-Muslims about Islam. But since you've laid down a rule ("If X is offensive, people shouldn't listen to X"), let's be consistent. I find the Qur'an extremely offensive (wife-beating, sex with little girls, raping captives, slaughtering unbelievers, etc.). Thus, I shouldn't listen to the Qur'an. I find Muhammad's teachings extremely offensive. Thus, I shouldn't listen to Muhammad. I find Abu Bakr's words offensive. Thus, I shouldn't listen to Abu Bakr. And I find your deceptive tactics offensive. So why should I listen to you?
The same basic story is attested in Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah:
Now Abu Bakr was sitting behind the apostle and he said, 'Suck al-Lat's nipples! Should we desert him?' (p. 502)
Apparently, the fact that the story is attested in more than one source, coupled with the fact that it is so embarassing to Muslims, as Yahya unwittingly demonstrates, that it is hard to believe Muslims like Ibn Ishaq and al-Tabari are making it up (or presenting it as probable enough to be true such that they include it in their accounts), is not persuasive to Yahya.
Any honest historian would easily conclude that Abu Bakr had a potty mouth, and that his penchant for pornified speech, which goes unchecked by Muhammad in these accounts, was directed at other people's gods.
what I found quite telling is how Muslims have deified Muhammad without them even being aware of it. Case in point, last weekend Fatman had a debate with a Muslim in a Muslim room on paltalk, which you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5e--M9mBzc
Fatman got bounced eventually for supposedly "insulting the prophet". However, Fatman called Allah a false god and mouse in the debate. The Muslims didnt care about that. Forget Allah's honor, Allah can be dragged through the mud. But if you point the finger to Muhammad, you will loose your head. Makes you wonder who they worship and adore?
I find it quite telling that Muhammad is supposed to be one of the many prophets and we arent to distinguish between them. I have yet to see a Muslim get upset, let alone issue a death threat, to anyone that insults either Moshe or Yeshua, or David or any other prophet. Yet when it comes to Muhammad your head will roll. I have even yet to see someone being threatened for insulting Allah!
"Wow. Yahya, you're either completely deceptive or you have no clue what you're talking about and shouldn't be defending Islam."
The fact remains...Muslims are not allowed to insult other people's gods
Wow. Yahya just condemned Abu Bakr. We are truly in the midst of a great Muslim. Yahya is greater than the first Rightly Guided Caliph!
But Yahya has also condemned Muhammad and the entire early Muslim community. For they smashed the idols of the pagans. This is the ultimate insult. (If you don't agree, Yahya, tell me what you would think if non-Muslims smashed the Ka'aba to pieces. Would you take this as an insult to your religion?)
Judging by your comments towards me of late I think it is best for us to stop conversing at this juncture...futility and sensationalism are of no use to any Truth seeker
I bid you good night
I await your second video in the series on the Quran...I will respond to that too (unless my colleagues beat me to the punch)...God Willing
Peace...I wish you and your family all the best...May God bless them further...Ameen
Abu Bakr: "Go suck al-Lat's clitoris"
Meccan Pagan: "Judging by your comments towards me of late I think it is best for us to stop conversing at this juncture..."
Don't you just love the religion of peace and tolerance when some one draws a not very good cartoon depicting Mohammed as a dog. This gets so little coverage in the state controlled media. But I bet you my bottom petro dollar if there had been such an incident toward the "artist" who had a crucifix in a bottle of urine the media would have given blanket coverage to all those intollerant Christians.
And by the way David are you prepared for another peaceful encounter with our friends in Dearaborn
Someone saide: «I think it is best for us to stop conversing at this juncture»...
could thate someone extend thate determination to all other junctions? it woulde be a great gesture to keep this site clear off delusional and hipocrital persons...
i find it hard to believe that islam teaches that muslims r ought 2 respect gods and beliefs of other ppl, bc of the simple reason that allah constantly mocks in his book those other gods and beliefs. and as far as i know muslims should submit 2 allah and his teachings...
if we take into account how muhammad behaved towards beliefs and gods which didnt belong to him, the picture gets quite clear as well.
"Go suck the clitoris of al-Lat"
This is simply UNBELIEVABLE! And THAT was the first rightly guided Caliph?!?!?!
No Thanks! ;)
can't believe what i am reading here. you must be a sick person condeming muslims and religion for your own gratification. Go get a life.
Respect other religion first before u condem a religion.
David ,u have attitude problem toward muslim and do u
think most of us here doesn't know your nonsense..
Please make a research first b4 blow your filthy mouth.
An infidel like u god had to create a hell for the satan and
u to stay forever and ever..
I stumbled upon this page accidentally, bbut can I just make a simple comment?
Ok, I'm going to go ahead and do so anyways...
if anyone here has GENUINE INTEREST in learning about Islam, then I believe it would be best for he/she to ask a practicing/knowledgeable Muslim. And for anyone who wants to learn about Christianity, ask a knowledgeable Christian--they know their religion better than anyone who spends day and night criticizing others' beliefs.
It's like asking an atheist about God's attributes, or asking a Catholic priest about human evolution. It is unfit for an opponent of a faith to speak on behalf of that faith, and that's just a practical point of view.
May Allah (swt) guide us all :-)
All my Best,
1- You have absolutely no proof that H.abu bakr actually said that.
2- Even if he did(which is highly unlikely) it was a sin because Islam does not allow people to insult other religions.
''So the rule was: "Don't insult other religions, because then they'll insult Allah and Muhammad." Notice that this rule wouldn't apply once Muslims are strong enough to kill people who insult Islam. '' How the hell can you conclude that this was the rule and that it wouldnt apply when muslims are in power? The quran does not teach the muslims to insult other religions when they are in power. You are just making up your own conclusions just to put islam in a bad light and have not studied the teachings or quran properly.
(wife-beating, sex with little girls, raping captives, slaughtering unbelievers) Those are not the teachings of the Quran and you are clearly missinformed.
Islam is a religion of peace not hatred or violence. Please read it before commenting.
Apparently Ibrahim didn't read what Osama just wrote in the latest thread.
Ibrahim, go have a look at today's post and try to convince Osama-death-and-destruction-abdallah that Islam is a religion of peace.
Just because people do horrible things and call themselves muslims doesnt mean that they are following the teachings of Islam. They MIGHT not even be muslims. Im not debating on what today's many muslims do, im debating on what they SHOULD do. There are many christians even who do things that are supposed to be forbidden in Christianity. And i dont have time to convince every astray muslim to come on the right path.
PS: The Quran does not insult other religions nor force people to convert.
Quran 2:256 There shall be no compulsion in religion.
And this is what Islam teaches us.
Quran 49:11 O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or make fun of your names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors.
So please do not come with your misinformed minds and blow out your hatred against islam. Understand Islam...not judge the actions of muslims.
Muslims attack one another and Christians. Christians have repeatedly throughout history attacked Muslims and Jews. Jews have been scapegoated all throughout history. Three religions of Abraham, and they can't get along. I think there's something wrong with all of us. What the hell was the point of the Crusades?! Why do many American people believe it was Muslims who attacked us? At the same time, why do Muslims have a problem with Western culture and civilization? Our beliefs and pride in them is going to lead us to destroy the world for ourselves, for our children. If we keep arguing like this, it will turn to chaos in some way when men like Hitler resurface, when extremists begin another Holocaust against another religious group...
I don't urge peace in the name of any religion, but in the name of common decency to human beings! I'm not an atheist, but why do these major religions continue to fight when both their holy books stress loving one another?
You know what - I completely DISLIKE about the staunch Muslim who think that they are great in religion just because you read Quran (blindly) and think you're damn good and go around preaching others that they are in the wrong and will find their ways to hell...!! Who are you to judge and why don't these staunch Muslims live harmoniously with the non- Muslims ??? Non-Muslims did render help to Muslims and why can't they do vice versa..?? These are the people who actually embarrasses me and brought Islam which is suppose to be a peaceful and calm religion all int he wrong way. Also not mentioning going around 'attacking' the Muslims that their thots and ideas are wrong for certain reason just because that particular Muslim is just trying to be diplomatic and living harmoniously with the non- Muslims... These are the people who should go to hell for screwing up the beauty of Islam.. Morons ...!!
david you must know al quran all we accept what cames from al quran...but hadis some hadis true ori some hadis dhaiff weak ...maybe about abu bakar hadis dhaifff before you talk about islam you must study and know ...not straightly fight without evidence ...drzakirnaik
Post a Comment