Wednesday, February 10, 2010

Hogan Elijah Hagbard Responds to Yahya Snow: Does Monotheism and Belief in Jesus Serve as Evidences that the Qur'an is Not Demonically Inspired?

This post could also be titled 'Does the Teaching of Jesus and His Disciples confirm Islam to be a Demonic Inspiration'.

In Yahya Snow’s rebuttal he brings up a number of points to prove that Islam was not demonically inspired. I will just assess one of these points on this thread.

Yahya said that Islam teaches belief in Jesus and belief in Abrahamaic monotheism; Yahya then argues that Satan would never convey such teaching to anyone and hence Islam can only come from God himself.

There are a number of fallacies with these two assumptions.

Firstly according to the Epistle of James, simple belief in the God of Abraham is not sufficient and does not constitute true religion unless accompanied by certain actions, which together constitute genuine faith (James 2: 18-19).

Two points within this passage are vital of consideration:

1) simple faith in monotheism is not sufficient

2) faith has to be genuine and accompanied by certain deeds.

These deeds are the once you will find if you read e.g. the Sermon on the Mountain (the Gospel of Matthew 5-7 and e.g. James 1: 26-27) in which a number of elements clearly contradict the ethical teachings of the Qur’an. Hence according to James 2 Muslims who claim to believe in the God of Abraham and follow the Qur’an to the core will not escape hell-fire.

Let me point out one example from your youtube rebuttal and compare it with the standard found within the epistle of James.

In your rebuttal I was made the bad guy because I reacted to the rape, torture and death of Christian girl. I expounded upon my reaction since Islam clearly teaches that Christians are to be attacked, suppressed, humiliated, not be trusted and are the worst of all creatures.

Hence, no Muslim can be in his right mind if he expects me to glorify, respect or embrace the Islamic faith. Try to ask a Palestinian to recognise and respect the Nation of Israel or a Jew to embrace the rule of Nazi Germany.

You worry because I reacted with one sentence about the religion of Islam. Yet you do not seem to worry when Muslims react with violence against non-Muslims for silly things such as some cartoons or a Qur’an being desecrated. We Christians experience worse every day.

Furthermore, in your rebuttal no word was mentioned about the Christian girl, who was mutilated and eliminated; all that mattered was my reaction, which I believe was fully justified.
This is called ‘favouritism’! You favour your Muslim comrades and give a diamond when they cause such atrocities, you even call the reaction of those who speak out an act of misbehaviour and unwise.

In James 2: 8-9 we read:

‘If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbour as yourself,” you are doing right. But if you show favouritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as law-breakers’

Now consider this Yahya. According to James chapter two, your faith in the God of Abraham only, will not save you from hell. Furthermore, you have even broken the law that is to accompany it, proving that your faith in Abraham’s God is not genuine or that the religion you follow now (the Qur'an), which is contrary to God true Law, is not genuine.

Notice also that in James 5: 1-6 there is a curse upon those who undermine, suppress and exploit others. Well the Qur’an teaches Muslims not to trust Christians or Jews, to attack them, suppress and treat them harshly. Hence based upon the epistle of James Islam is not from God and is correctly categorized as the influence of evil spirits (take a look at James 3:13-18 which describes to kinds of wisdoms and their nature).

But there is more. You say that Islam cannot be demonically inspired because it teaches belief in Abrahamic Monotheism and belief in Jesus.

However, Jesus condemned a number of Jews who believed in Abrahamic monotheism and in him and even categorized them as children of the devil:

‘To the Jews who had believed in him, Jesus said: “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”’ (John 8: 31-32).

Yet in verse 44 he says:

‘You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your fathers desire’

These were Jews, believing in the God of Abraham, believing in Jesus. Yet these followed will of the devil.

Notice that in the Qur’an, you are clearly permitted multiple wives, your are permitted to divorce these, you are permitted concubines (females captured in war), you are commanded to attack polytheists, Christians and Jews because of their faith and to suppress them, you are told not to trust Christians or Jews and consider them the worst of creatures.

Try to compare this with the teaching of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 5.

The fact is: you can believe all you want in Abrahamic monotheism and in Jesus; yet not being a true follower of Jesus you will still adhere to a doctrine or a mindset that conforms to the desire of demonic nature and you will be eternally condemned. Notice, this the teaching of Jesus, not mine.

This is why in Matthew’s Gospel chapter seven, verse 21-23 Jesus will reject many so called believers who on the day of judgement will say: ‘Lord, Lord’.

Hence just believing in Jesus is not sufficient, you need to repent and devout your life to his standard.

I have noticed that Muslims frequently use this passage in Matthew 7 as a means to argue that these are Christians who call him Lord and hence are rejected for their belief in his divinity. Yet this is not at all what the passage is teaching. Notice that verse 21 says ‘not everyone who comes to me’, in other words not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord’ is rejected. Notice also that verse 21 further speaks about doing the Father’s will and verse 23 speaks of evildoers. Hence the passage states that anyone whether Muslim or a so called Christian who does not live in accordance of Jesus’ standard will not be spared on the day of judgement (read the First Epistle of John more on this).

Thus being a Muslim who adheres to the Qur’an you are not in the category that follows the teaching of Jesus.

Jesus even rebuked the teachers of the monotheist Law. Look at Matthew 23 and Luke 11: 37-54. These teachers in the Law all followed Abrahamic monotheism strictly. In Luke 11, these teachers of the Law even seem to respect Jesus and ate with him; yet Luke 11 he curses these experts in monotheism; in verse 52 he says:

‘Woe to you experts in the Law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourself have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.’

So try to imagine this: even monotheistic law teachers who believe in Jesus do not have the key to knowledge and are not entering the heavenly bliss.

Another vital passage, which I have brought up in our discussion before is Mark 8: 31-33. Jesus shares with his disciples that he will killed and rise again (verse 31).

Peter opposes this future event (verse 32),

As a response Jesus says to Peter:

‘Get behind me Satan!...you do not have in mind the things of God but the things of men.’

We all know that Islam and the Qur’an denies the crucifixion and death of Jesus, yet according to
Jesus’ teaching confirms that denying his death is evidence of demonic inspiration and relates to the human mind not the mind of God.

Hence based upon Jesus’ words in the earliest Gospel, the Qur’an contains demonic inspiration and is composed by the influence of humans. Again this is based upon the teaching of Jesus not me.

This correlates with a phrase in the Epistle of James chapter 3, verse 15, which describes the standard of Christianity versus standard that falls short of it (of which the Qur’an is a typical example):

‘Such wisdom does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil’

Is it possible based upon this, that the Islam is not from God but is a human religion inspired by demonic forces?

I will let the reader decide.

See more on: http://christianityresponse.blogspot.com/

35 comments:

aussie christian said...

Well written Hogan.

All though I doubt very much that any truth that you can place as evidence to this fool will do an ounce of good.

When the mind has been so twisted to belive lies as truth and truth as lies, very little will sink in and make much difference.

But keep up the good work, hopefully some poor muslim soul who is looking for truth will read this and begin the proccess of escaping this demonic evil satanic cult.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Well the Muslims were the ones who really raised this issue. Hence they are the ones asking for this.

Actually you would be surprised how many Muslims are embracing the Christian faith these days; its harvest time.

mkvine said...

Wow, I really liked how you made reference to Matthew 16 and said that Jesus condemned Peter's denial of the crucifixion as demonic in orgin. This fits in perfectly with Islam's denial of the crucifixion as satanic in origin as well.

Fernando said...

Brother Hogan Elijah Hagbard... great job... I do not seam to remember Yahya Snow starting too feel twitched when the Muslim Photom started, in all off his postes, saying thate Christianity, Christians and this blogg were devilish... why is that so? hummm...

aussie christian said...

Your right, I would be suprised. Where I live there is a very limited number of muslims, they seem to keep a very low profile.

Although I have noticed some aspects of their manerisms which I find extremely disterbing.

1. the men are always dressed in western clothes (jeans, t-shirts, sneakers).
2. the women are always dressed in islamic dress with the burka.
3. the men walk about 10 feet in front of the women with very little attention paid to them.

What made me most upset was the fact the women (2 of them) had a stroller each laiden with children and large amounts of shopping, they were struggling across a crosswalk on an extremely busy main arterial road. meanwhile the men just looked over their sholder briefly and continued to walk on laughing and joking with each other.

My first reaction to my wife was, why would these turkey's even bother to marry if they cant even look after their wives. Needless to say my wife was less than impressed with the actions of these two lowlives, commenting to me that if they cant even help their children across the road there must be something mentally wrong with them.

So my main interaction with islam is seeing bombings on the news, reading this and other web sites, and watching muslim men ignore completely their struggling wives, which is in my humble opinion mental abuse.

thus far islam and muslims in general have failed dismally to display the slightest amount of humanity, leading myself to conclude that nothing that comes out of islam is worth spitting on.

The Fat Man said...

Hogan thanks again very edifying, it is a shame that Yahya Snow is not up to the level of discourse you are demonstrating.

I still can't get over his use of Mark saying that Jesus said to be Muslims but that is his level.

I just wanted to encourage you that you are not so much as responding to him as you are writing to lift up the church as a whole. Keep up the good work.

minoria said...

Hello:

Some 2 months ago Mr. HECTOR ALEEM,a Pakistani Christian who has defended human rights there was arrested.He is now in danger of really being condemned to death on a false charge of blasphemy.His daughter sent a heart-wrenching letter to ALI SINA,of FAITHFREEDOM.ORG (it's there right now:"Will you Help to Save a Man's Life."

PLEASE sign the online petition of protest to the Pakistani government.I have,but unfortunately less than 350 have signed in.It's not enough.Read the article by ALI SINA,it also has a link to a public letter by ALEEM's daughter,and at the bottom,it has a link called PLEASE ALSO SIGN THIS PETITION (to petitiononline).

Chaud said...

@Hogan

Hi Hogan ,

Nice article , I think its very unique in perspective , but since this is between you and Yahya I won't jump in.

Hmmm , Muslim embarrassing Christianity , well I don't know what's going in the western world , but over here in the middle east the evangelists got so depressed by their failure they had to fabricate numbers and go on American news channels to broadcast their desperation , I hope you are not referring to them.

for example : Zakaria Botros (a notorious evangelist ) a while ago appeared on CBN saying that there are one million converts to Christianity is Egypt & 10,000 in KSA !

When in reality every year there is only 1-6 cases of Muslim to Christan in each country in the Arab world since 2004 according to the last study.

So how's it going in the western world ?

Adam said...

American terror suspect held at Delhi airport India

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/us-national-detained-after-4-blade-found-in-hand-baggage/578483/


Is it true that the Black American love selling their souls in the greed of MuhamMAD's lusty janaat Heaven
?????????????????????????????

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Two things here,

Firstly Chaud, to your information I have being travelling around in Arabic countries and even met some of the people who are on top when it comes to the statistics of Muslims converting to Christianity.

There are Christians who actually hate statistics and who absolutely refrain from exaggeration; some of the information I have been given first hand derives from these individuals.

I know that approximately 8 years ago, there were 20.000 converts in Saudi Arabia alone (would you believe that I was in Saudi Arabia 8 years ago).

I have met a number of Muslim converts to Christianity (I guess at least a hundred), hence based upon my own experience the statistics you hear are actually true.

One of my evangelist friends who returned to UK from a Muslim country actually discipled 20 converts in Syria 25 years ago; that does not really support your description.

I guess also that based upon the progressive fall of Islam in Muslim countries, Muslims turning into secularism and Muslim who choose to leave Islam it is very likely that many of these find their answers in Christianity.

Living in a Muslim country you will obviously not observe the public rise of these converts, you ought to know as well as I that there lives will be in danger.

Here in the UK we meet many Muslim converts to Christianity, in fact we have never meet as many as today; we meet them everywhere and they are everywhere. We are also excited about the interest Muslims show toward the Christian faith. This is very different from five years ago.

One particular Christian movement here in UK has claimed to have baptised thousands of Muslims within the last five years.

Secondly, to a different matter:

Yahya Snow's youtube response to me is on Youtube and his blog.

I have posted the links of my responses to his blog, which he has never permitted to appear in the comment section.

And today (to my surprise) I notice that he has even removed the comment sections. Hence there is a rebuttal and Muslims and others will read his rebuttal without the possibility to truly understand its context or know of my replies. Maybe the removal of the comment sections are only temporary; I truly hope.

I am not on Youtube at the moment, but could someone with a youtube account explain the fully picture on youtube and post the links of these rebuttals on the comment section of his youtube.

traeh said...

why did this website stop the video debates? They were so good, so alive compared to articles, as good as the articles are...

leviMichael said...

great job, Hogan!!!

ned said...

Hi All:

James 2:19 (New International Version) you believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

2 Corinthians 4:4, the "god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."

Muslims surely do not believe in Jesus as Christ but as a messenger who in His childhood would be breathing life in clay birds. They do not believe that the same Jesus is the source of life that is everlasting.
Devil or satan does not want anyone to have the eternal life and that’s what happened in Garden of Eden. And now it happens through the same mixed messages like Islam gives. I find it all very similar to what happened in Garden of Eden.
Even Jesus rebuked satan when Peter said in Matt. 16:22, "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
Matt.16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
It is very critical and important for us to object and respond to message of Islam about Jesus and demonic interpretation of Bible by muslims.
Please note that whatever we suggest is in the light of the Word of God and not from our own mind.

At the same note i would ask muslim friends to follow the Jesus as Saviour, Way, Truth and Light that leads to the Kingdom of God. For Jesus said no one come to Father except through Me.

Chaud said...

@Hogan

Hi ,

I also know some top people when it comes to statistics as well , along with the statistics of africa .

I was born in KSA , soI wouldn't be surprised if you were there 8 years ago , why should I be ? but I don't believe there were 20,000 converts in KSA back then.

I'm glad you resort to honest people who don't exaggerate , I was worried for a moment that you might rely on lies of Rachid Al-Maghribi and Zakaria Botros.

Actually the conversion numbers differ from decade to decade , 25-27 years ago there was an organized attempt to evangelize Muslims using deceit , kinda like what's going on right now.

So if your friend discipled a well number in Syria back at that time I wouldn't be surprised really.

Well I can't really wrestle with your experience , I believe you are honest so I'll just say I'm gonna look into it.

I have to agree with you on a point , there was a progressive fall of Islam a while back and that fall is deeper in countries like Iran , but they funny thing is that Tele missionaries saw this an opportunity to evangelize Muslims (again through lies) , for example Al-Hayat Tv , and what happened was the exact opposite , Islam is actually rising , and people are now coming to understand what it means to be a Muslim , even I wasn't even a practicing Muslim until I started watching christain missionary Tv , its funny how christian Tv made me a Muslim.

Well its good you are meeting converts , I was going to ask you if you do .

to you 2nd matter :

yeah I noticed that it was a response to you .

Well if that's what happened I'm gonna have to say this is wrong.

Well I like your article I think it has some great points that I've never seen before , but since this is between you and yahya I didn't want to jump in , do you mind if I write a response ? (once I'm done debating some users here on another topic , along with the articles I'm already working on , so it might take a while).

Regards ,

Chaud

Fernando said...

Hi brother ned... I read your comment and was bery helpfull... thankes for pointing those things tahte shoul, always, keept in our minds whem dealling withe our beloved muslim brothers in humanity...

brother Hogan: as you know I was ounce a muslim, and one thingue I must say aboutte people becoming Christians after leaving islam is thate I know for a fact thate one mosque in Indonesia closed, litterally, its doors in 2003 when people realized, talking silently and secretelly amoungue themselfes, thate more than 100 persons amoung 130 were cripto-Christians... I do not know whate happened after (I only habe contact withe a sister off mine thatt, withe her husband and sons, was amoungue those more than 100 persons), butt thate was a reall shock...

here in southern Europe, where I leave now for a whille, its happening also whate you described: muslims come here and, leaving in a secular society, began to rellize, and understand, the true nature off islam and, wiuthoutte the social pressure not to leave islam, are leaving it in considerabily numbers: first they become only muslims in a cultural way; then they leave its practices for good; and after some off them, understanding thate religion is a reall important thingue in someone's liffe, are approching some Christian denominatios... I myself helpped three persons making this journey from a devlish religion to a Godly one...

lets pray all for all those persons...

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Chaud,

by all means comment, that is why we have a comment section

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Chaud wrote:

I also know some top people when it comes to statistics as well , along with the statistics of africa.

Hogan replies:

Are you basing your statics on conversion to Christianity on these people? Are these people Muslims or Christians?

Chaud wrote:

I was born in KSA , soI wouldn't be surprised if you were there 8 years ago , why should I be ? but I don't believe there were 20,000 converts in KSA back then.

Hogan responds:

Whether you believe it or not, does not refute the number of converts. I doubt you have access to the secret net works of underground churches in the Muslim world even Arabia. These people operate extremely. They have to otherwise they get their heads chopped of (you know that as well as I), sligthly different from how we deal with converts in the West. Hence is should not surprise us that the secret society of converts is not fully viewable to Muslim converts.

Chaud wrote:

I'm glad you resort to honest people who don't exaggerate , I was worried for a moment that you might rely on lies of Rachid Al-Maghribi and Zakaria Botros.

Hogan replies:

You are attempting to demonize popular Christian figures; I see Muslim resorting to this trend the entire time; I am sorry but I am not participating in these games.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Chaud wrote:

Actually the conversion numbers differ from decade to decade , 25-27 years ago there was an organized attempt to evangelize Muslims using deceit , kinda like what's going on right now.

So if your friend discipled a well number in Syria back at that time I wouldn't be surprised really.

Hogan replies:

But in a previous post you stated that there are no more than 5 converts to Islam pr Arabic country pr year (I think I got your wording right). Now you state that there have been past and present missionary enterprizes making a great effort to convert the Muslim masses.

If that correlates to the 20 converts discipled by one man in one Arabic country, in one Arabic city, then I find some inconsistency with your statistics.

If the past missionary effort 25 years ago led one man to disciple 20 or so disciples in one location in one country then if the same effort is being launched by these missionary organisations today the statistics I present are probably more accurate than yours.

But I have only referred to one example. I can probably post a number of examples from each Arabic country pr year going back the last 25 years. For example what would you say about a full underground Bible college with 1200student in one Arabic country. That is 1200 active leaders for a lot of underground churches only within one Arabic country.

Also I find it offensive when you use the word 'deceit'. These Christians simply share the Christian message, much like Muslim missionaries do in the West. If you are gona apply the word 'deceit' you need to include both the Christian and Muslim initiative.

Chaud wrote:

Well I can't really wrestle with your experience , I believe you are honest so I'll just say I'm gonna look into it.

Hogan replies:

I can only say the same about your experiences. But I am not sure how you are gona look into it.

Chaud wrote:

I have to agree with you on a point , there was a progressive fall of Islam a while back and that fall is deeper in countries like Iran , but they funny thing is that Tele missionaries saw this an opportunity to evangelize Muslims (again through lies) , for example Al-Hayat Tv ,

Hogan replies:

I can't say I agree with you, we are currently observing an Arabic culture that is becoming more and more secular, just watch the Arabic youtube and the Arabic Movie culture (its heading somewhere and the masses are following). I am not saying that is positive as I view secularism as dangerous as Islam, but certainly it alludes to the fact that Islam is on decline.

Chaud wrote:

and what happened was the exact opposite , Islam is actually rising , and people are now coming to understand what it means to be a Muslim , even I wasn't even a practicing Muslim until I started watching christain missionary Tv , its funny how christian Tv made me a Muslim.

Hogan replies:

Again I can't refute your experience, but the information I get hold on and the people I meet reveal an entirely different story.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Anyone got any news about the debates.

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

Fernando,

Keep on the good work, this is harvest time, here where I am a number of Muslims converts to Christianity are being discipled too.

The Fat Man said...

I know this is way off thread but I thought I would bring this to the doctors attention.

This is a article publish in "International Journal of Cardiology" on the Quran and Hadeeth on Cardio Vascular system.

http://www.alhasso.com/The%20Heart%20and%20cardiovascular%20system%20in%20the%20Quran%20and%20Hadeeth.pdf

Be prepaird for this to be used in debates.

Just a quick quote.

"The Qur'an and Hadeeth even include some of the discoveries
made during the time of its creation. According to the Qur'an and
Hadeeth, God created disease and God also created a treatment for
every disease. There is a prophetic tradition where Mohammad has
been reported to have said that for every disease there is a remedy,"

Royal Son said...

Thank you for that Fat-Man. That brings me a series of questions regarding scientific miracles of Islam -

1. Are the Hadiths inspired of God and should thus be treated with equal respect as the Qur'an?

2. Is there a list of Hadiths that Muslims ought to regard as being on par with the Qur'an because they are Divinely inspired as well?

3. If the Hadiths are not Divinely inspired, then what is the source of these scientific statements?

4. Are there any documents that actually speak concerning the source of such statements within Islamic literature?

5. If the source of the Hadith are other than Allah, then why should non-muslims be impressed by them any more than the great works of scientists and philosophers throughout the ages who made scientific claims and discoveries?

There are a few more questions on this, but these would suffice for now. I'd be interested in the replies of our Muslim friends.

Jeff said...

Chaud:

I like a lot about your attitude and I really appreciate the willingness to see that someone can be honest even if he doesn't share your religious beliefs.

But the thing about "deceit" does trouble me. It troubles me from BOTH sides. I've seen Christians calling Muslims liars and the same the other way around.

I don't think it helps. People mostly are rationalizers rather than outright liars when they say things that aren't true. And oftentimes, it's a matter of difference of understandings.

Fr. Zakaria certainly makes disputable claims, but so do lots of Muslim apologists.

Christians listening to the average Muslim apologist generally feel he is distorting their faith and the evidence and manipulating it. And I think Muslims often feel the same way the other way around.

Whoever is right or wrong, I think the whole schpiel about "deceit" is a poor way to think about it. There are honest Christians and honest Muslims. We try to convert each other and being flawed human beings, we are not always perfect about it.

Royal Son said...

Jeff, I think you have overlooked a very important point and that is the teaching of taqiyya(deception) which is permitted in Islam.

This is taken from Sahih Muslim
Chapter 25: FORBIDDANCE OF TELLING A LIE AND THE CASES IN WHICH TELLING OF LIE IS PERMISSIBLE
Book 032, Number 6303:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

Here you see there are three cases where lying is permissable:

in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife.

My God, the God of the bible is Holy and forbids lying.

AKunde said...

Greetings,

How does one propose a formalised debate on this website?

Kind regards,

Abdullah

Nabeel Qureshi said...

Abdullah--

It depends on whom you're challenging. If it's me or David, you can email us: nabeel@acts17.net; david@acts17.net.

If it's anyone else, just work it out through the comments page.

Cheers,
-Nabeel

Adam said...

Bro David and Nabeel,

While speaking to Pakistani Friend we got to know.
www.Answeringmuslims.com is restricted in Pakistan.


Adam

Hogan Elijah Hagbard said...

If it's public and its me, I am not ready for such a task until early next year. Just so everyone knows.

Jeff said...

Royal Son:

No, I know about taqqiya. I'm not sure that in practice it's any more common among Muslims than mental reservation among Christians.

I agree: I think our theology of lying is superior to that of the Muslims. But I don't think it's fair to Muslims simply to accuse them of taqqiya every time they disagree with us about some interpretation of their religion.

Most people accept that lying is allowed under certain circumstances--to save one's life or that of one's child, etc.. That doesn't mean that they are lie constantly.

I haven't found that Muslims lie to me particularly more than Christians do and when they feel they are not under attack I find them to often be as good at self-examination as Christians are.

Fernando said...

Hi Jeff...

can you provide me an example from the Bible thate makes lying something moral accepted? thankes...

Semper Paratus said...

For the record, I think Jeff is a pseudonym for Jon the Apostate. He's posing as a Christian and is only doing a slightly better job than Muslims pulling it off.

It isn't just Muslims whose theology justifies lying: the morally bankrupt worldview of atheism also provides no standards that rule out lying. As different as atheists and Muslims might appear, "like Samson's foxes they are knit together by the tail of consent and jointly endeavor to consume the standing corn of the Church of God."

KonjoHiwot said...

Semper Paratus, I think you are right regarding Jeff. I noticed it during his comments under the blog "A Question About Allah." I wish people would be frank about their believes...

Regards

Sepher Shalom said...

Jeff said: "No, I know about taqqiya. I'm not sure that in practice it's any more common among Muslims than mental reservation among Christians."

Equating Taqiyya with "mental reservation"? What kind of comparison is that? This makes no sense.

Jeff said: "But I don't think it's fair to Muslims simply to accuse them of taqqiya every time they disagree with us about some interpretation of their religion."

It is fair to accuse them of Taqiyya when they are dissimulating, hiding facts, and misrepresenting their religion. It's not an issue of "interpretation".

Jeff said: "Most people accept that lying is allowed under certain circumstances--to save one's life or that of one's child, etc.. That doesn't mean that they are lie constantly."

A Muslim would be allowed to lie on this blog by virtue of the Hadith Royal Son posted based on the fact that they are engaging in "Jihad by the pen" (a verbal war against the non believers). Your comments seem to be a strange characterization of your personal wishes of what you think Islam must be like.

Jeff said: "I haven't found that Muslims lie to me particularly more than Christians do and when they feel they are not under attack I find them to often be as good at self-examination as Christians are."

Please show me from the Biblical text where a Christian is allowed to lie "when they feel they are under attack".

Please show me from the Islamic texts where a Muslim is told to engage in "self-examination". I have not seen that particular directive in my studies.

Royal Son said...

Sepher Shalom, some very good points there. I'd just like to chime in something extra and that is even aside from the verbal war of the pen that you mentioned earlier, A muslim who wishes to restore his relationship with a person can practice Taqiyya as well.

We have seen a number of cases where Ehtesham Gulam, Osmama Abdullah and some others tried to reconcile matters with us on this blog because of the nasty things they said.

This shows me two things -

- Lie to them while you fight them
- Lie to them while you try to make peace

Sky said...

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