Thursday, December 31, 2009

Nearly Four out of Five Gazan Women Victims of Violence

Of course, they have it better than women in Afghanistan, where nine out of ten women are victims of domestic abuse.

The vast majority of women in Gaza face violence of varying types, a new survey has found.

The study, by the Gaza-based Palestinian Women's Information and Media Center, found that violence against women in Gaza has increased since Hamas took over the Gaza Strip in the June 2007 coup and Israel subsequently imposed restrictions on the coastal enclave.

The study found that 77.1% of Gazan women have experienced violence of various sorts, with almost half experiencing violence of more than one type.

A quarter of the women said they do not feel safe in their own homes because of violence and more than a third said they were unable to fight back as they had more urgent priorities to deal with.

67% of the women surveyed said they had encountered verbal violence, 71% mental violence, 52% physical violence and more than 14% sexual violence. . . .

Palestinian women's rights activists have told The Media Line that domestic violence is not tackled adequately by the Palestinian police, who often turn a blind eye to such complaints.

There are few shelters for battered women in the Palestinian territories.

Hamouda said laws to combat violence against women were lax and contributed to a culture of impunity for perpetrators, especially in relation to honor killings.

Honor killings are cases in which women accused of bringing dishonor to the family are killed by relatives. Killings often involve women suspected of fraternizing with men who are not their husbands or relatives.

"The authorities do punish them, but they have a weak law," Hamouda said. "When it comes to so-called honor crimes, the articles of the criminal laws still mete out mitigated sentences to the perpetrators. The organization is trying to increase awareness of violence against women and make it a higher priority for rights organization, civil society organizations and factions."

We want them to help women participate in public life and make this an important part of their strategy," she said. "Not just a political slogan." Read More.

For more on violence toward women in Islam, see "Islam and Wife-Beating: Muslim Scholars Speak."

63 comments:

Jon said...

Let's remember that Israel has a blockade on the Palestinians, Israel limits the food, medicines, doctors, etc available to them. Israel occasionally slaughters them without any credible pretext. Desperate unemployed Palestinians even resort to settlement construction. Building the mansions for their oppressors. It's a miserable life for them, and when misery and stress increase so too does domestic violence.

Here's an idea if you really care about these oppressed Palestinian women. Maybe we should stop providing Israel with the means to avoid a peaceful settlement. Peace would reduce stress on Palestinians and probably also reduce the domestic violence.

adnandakingkhalil said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fernando said...

Hahahaha Hon... you're simply a clown... now the justification for tese barbarous actions against women is Israel... hahahahaha... anad that mythe that some palestianians are suffering from the blocade is simply that: a mythe: Palestinain economy was one of the fastes growings in the year 2009...

The Fat Man said...

Jon but the Gazinians have ISLAM, what do they need with such things as Kuffar Food, Kuffar Medicines, Kuffar doctors. They have ISLAM

Irenaeus of New York said...

A significant number of those in Gaza are actually Christian. Remember that next time someone turns a blind eye to their suffering.

Irenaeus of New York said...

I agree with you Jon.

Paul Guralivu said...

To Jon:

Dude, you're doing it ALL OVER AGAIN.
We don't talk about Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

If you want to discuss that go on a political forum.

One point: Think about it:
If there was no conflict in Gaza, THIS type of violence IN MUSLIM FAMILY would still be.

Paul.

Sepher Shalom said...

So Jon, you expect us to believe that when a Muslim man acts in accordance with Surah 4:34 and beats a womam from whom he "fears disobedience", it is actually the fault of Israel? Oh sure....this makes perfect sense. Muslims following the Quran is clearly caused by Israel. Why couldn't we have seen that all along.

Jon said...

Paul, this is a post about domestic abuse of Palestinian women. The implication in this forum would be that this is due to Islam. The causes are the point. I'm a dissenter saying that the causes presumed here aren't the whole story. You can disagree but you can't say my comments aren't relevant.

Jon said...

Making stuff up again, Fernando?

Here's Wikipedia on the economy in Gaza. And remember we're talking about Gaza here, not the West Bank. Gaza is where the Israeli blockade is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Gaza

In 2007, unemployment in the Gaza Strip reached 40% and was set to rise to 50%. According to Oxfam, the private sector which employs 53% of all working Gazans has been "devastated" and many businesses have gone bankrupt. Of the 110,000 workers in this sector, approximately 75,000 lost their jobs. Currently, 95% of the city's industrial operations are suspended due to the inaccessibility to inputs for production and the inability to export products.[5]

In June 2005, there were 3,900 factories in the city employing 35,000 people, and in December 2007, there were 195 factories remaining, employing 1,700 people. The construction industry was also affected, with tens of thousands of labourers out of work and The blockade damaged the agriculture sector and 40,000 workers who depend on cash crops no longer have income. Unemployment has been compounded since Israel ended its reliance on cheap labor from the Gaza Strip in 2005. In September 2000, around 24,000 Palestinians crossed out of Gaza daily to work in Israel, but today the figure is zero.[5]

The number of people living in absolute poverty in Gaza has increased sharply since the blockade. Today, 80% of families in Gaza currently rely on humanitarian aid compared to 63% in 2006. In 2007, households were spending approximately 62% of their total income on food compared with 37% in 2004. As a result, food aid increased dramatically to meet the needs of the population. In 2008, there were over 1.1 million people—some three-quarters of Gaza's population—who are dependent on food aid. Since 1997, the number of families depending on UNRWA food aid has increased ten-fold.

Jon said...

Nonsense, Sepher. I'm not excusing domestic violence. But I am stating a fact. Stress contributes to it. Poverty contributes to it. This is obvious. We can either do what we can to help the situation or we can complain about it and do nothing as women continue to suffer. A peaceful settlement WOULD HELP and we could help make that happen. Why not contribute where we can instead of whining about things we can't change. I don't support the Qur'anic teachings on this. They're backwards and immoral. I likewise don't support the Bible's treatment of women as property. But if there are things I can do to improve the situation I'll do it. I'm not going to get people to let go of their bibles, but should I use that as an excuse to allow myself to continue to exacerbate a problem?

aussie christian said...

Jon
You claim that it is all israel's fault about islamic violence.

I note that you are massively silent on the abuse from islam in many countries, egypt, malaysia, indonesia, iran, syria, etc, where israel has not placed any blockades upon. This has nothing at all to do with Israel and every thing to do with islam.

because islam teaches intollerance, violence, lieing, killing, destruction of anything non islam, and in many cases anything not islamic enough (nigeria as example). when islam is left alone, violence and death increase dramatically (see nigeria again). you need to look at the teachings of islam before you start blaming everyone else.

Peaceful settlement, well thats a joke, only because the palastinians have claimed over and over the only way for peace to reign in the middle east is when Israel is driven into the sea, and I am not talking about taking the Jews and Christians to the beach for a party, but the total distruction of Israel. How can you have peace with a people who wish to see you dead.

The only way there will be peace is when islam rejects the violent teachings of the koran, rejects compulsion of religeon, rejects the subjegation of women and rejects sharia law. until this happens, the world will be forced into continuing conflict with the jihad element of islam.

I always have had no problem with anyone wishing to be a muslim, I have no problem with anyone wishing to go to a mosque and pray 5 times a day, travel to mecca once in a life time, wear the hijab (if it is their own choice) or any of the other religous activities they choose to do or not do. I do have a problem when I am told, "convert, pay jizra or die".

when islam actually stops lieing and actually becomes this religeon of peace of which they often sprook yet fail to demonstrate, then I for one will stand on the highest rooftops and yell with all the power that my lungs have, "Leave islam alone". but whilst islam chooses to demonstrate all forms of evil activities, then I yell from the rooftops "islam is the seed of satan, Leave islam and come unto Christ Jesus and be saved, put on the personality of Christ and be saved."

Peace and Love

Jon said...

Aussie, the reason I'm silent about atrocities committed by Muslims is because I can't do much about that. What I can do is control my own behavior and the behavior of my country. So I think the first place you should look when you desire to improve the world is look in the mirror. Are you contributing to the problem? Correct that first, then start criticizing others.

If the Palestinians want nothing more than to drive Israel into the sea, then why did the PLO endorse a peaceful settlement? Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to destroy the PLO because they were threatening peace. Look up the voting record at the U.N. on "Peaceful Settlement to the Palestinian Conflict." The entire Arab world supports it along with the rest of the world. It's the U.S. and Israel and a couple of add on's that they bribe to go along against around 150 countries. So who is it that will not tolerate a peaceful settlement? Let's join the world and observe the benefits that result. Why not? Seriously.

Simon said...

jon

i somewhat agree with u but u sud also look at the big pic. u do realize the bible prohecys r being fullfilled and there isnt going to be any peace till antichrist steps in. how wud u want to handle someone who doesnt want to c u live? the problem is ISLAM. its the cause of everything destructive around the world and thats where it all starts from.

aussie christian

i agree with u as well muslims want isreal whipped out of this world. God isnt gona let that happen. and besides peace will come but only for a few years with the antichrist.

Fernando said...

Hi Jon... no, I'm not the one lying around here... I'm a Christian and neber lyied as I proved many times after your accusations against me...

about theis last claim; here's the proof from the official document off the Palestianian Authority...

http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_pcbs/PressRelease/NovEng%2020091.pdf

or

http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_pcbs/cpi/2e9d8ffd-acba-45f1-ace7-053feeac67cf.htm


or

http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_pcbs/cpi/f7e266e5-89a9-424a-a14a-6f171f5698d4.htm

or another study from the World Bank:

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/AHLCJune09Reportfinal.pdf

(end part 1)

Fernando said...

(part 2)

and another one

(http://haifadiarist.blogspot.com/2009/12/booming-palestinian-economy.html)

• The Palestinian national product: A 5.6% increase in the first quarter of 2009 compared with the corresponding quarter last year, and a 5.4% increase in the second quarter of 2009, compared with the corresponding quarter in 2008.

• Unemployment in the West Bank: A drop from 19% in the first quarter of 2008 to 17.7% in the first quarter of this year. A drop from 18.2% unemployment in the second quarter of 2008 to 16.4% in the second quarter of 2009.

• Unemployment in the Gaza Strip: A drop from 45.5% in the second quarter of 2008 to 36% in the second quarter of 2009.

• Growth: In an interview with WP and Newsweek in October, Fayyad related to "8% growth in 2009, if not more," and described the growth as "very good." Special Quartet envoy Tony Blair mentioned the possibility of a double-digit growth rate in 2009.

• Stock market: A 12.5% rise since the beginning of the year.

• Foreign investments in the West Bank: A six-fold increase (!) compared with the corresponding period last year, as a result of the economic conferences that were held in Bethlehem and Nablus, and of the improved security in the area (this figure was provided by the Palestinians and the Joint Economic Conference held on September 2).

• Truck traffic between Israel and Judea and Samaria: A 41% increase in the first half of 2009 compared with the corresponding period last year. There was a 22% increase in the crossing of goods into the Gaza Strip between September and October, and an additional 14% increase from October to November (source of data: COGAT).

• Palestinian sales to Israel: From 2007 to 2008 there was a 6.8% increase, from $530 million to $566 million. In the first quarter of 2009, there was an 8% increase, from $136 million to $147 million (source: Central Bureau of Statistics).

• Palestinian purchases from Israel: From 2007 to 2008 there was a 25% increase, from $2.6 billion to $3.25 billion. In the first quarter of 2009, there was a decrease of 9.5% compared with the corresponding quarter in 2008, from $796 million to $720 million (source: Central Bureau of Statistics).

• General Palestinian foreign trade (including with Israel): Imports in 2008 totaled $3.7 billion, of which 72% was from Israel. This is a 20% increase compared with 2007. Imports in 2008 increased by 3%, and reached $529 million. The PA’s total trade in 2008 was $4.3 billion  a 17% increase compared with 2007.

• Energy: There was a 29% increase in gasoline consumption and a 7.6% increase in diesel fuel consumption in the first half of 2009, compared with the corresponding period last year (source: COGAT).

• Imports of cement: In the first half of 2009 alone, 18% more cement was imported than in all of 2008 (source: COGAT).

• Vehicle purchases: There was a 44% increase.

• Tourism: In 2008 there was a 93% increase in the number of tourists in the Bethlehem area (about one million tourists), and a 31% increase in the Jericho area (about half a million tourists). The number of hotel stays in the third quarter of 2009 was 136,000  a 42% increase compared with the corresponding quarter last year.

so... who's lying?

aussie christian said...

jon,

you state: Aussie, the reason I'm silent about atrocities committed by Muslims is because I can't do much about that.

Ok I accept you cant do anything about muslim attrocities. but yet you seem to have no problem with running down Israel, this is in my opinion hypocricy. If you can comment negitivly on one group, then surely you should stand up and be counted on the other group, either that or stay silent on both sides.

you then state: What I can do is control my own behavior and the behavior of my country. So I think the first place you should look when you desire to improve the world is look in the mirror. Are you contributing to the problem? Correct that first, then start criticizing others.

here I must severly pull you up, you seem to be running on the assumption that I have not done anything within my own country. Your assumption is completely incorrect.

I start at home, by working as hard as I can to be the best husband I can be to my beautiful wife, to ensure she has as wonderful a life as I can provide.

I do volunteer work with a local charity which helps the poor and poverty stricken, recovering alcoholics and drug users. I am involved in local and international enviromental organisations to do what I can with what means I have. I am involved in a small way with my local state and federal political system, writing letters, talking to polititions (sometimes feeling like I would be better talking to a brick dunny) on many matters, including foriegn policies. I do not due to physical limitations partisipate in marches.

Now I think that some or much of what I just wrote is included in the 'looking in the mirror' you mentioned. having done just that, I feel that lending my voice to an internet blog and this is not the only one I post to by the way, which unless im still in the BC (before computers age), allows me to show my solidarity with oppressed persons around the world if they can get internet access and if they read this blog.

Now I will leave you with a bit of Aussie humour and a saying, "when you assume you make and ASS out of U not ME".

So Jon, before you jump to assumtions without any facts to back you up, please ask, most people will be happy to divulge information.

Peace and Love

Tom said...

OF COURSE! Why didn't I think of that! BLAME IT ON THE JOOOOOOOOZ! No wait, it's the fault of constitutional democracy and capitalism! YES! The Americans did it! Yes! SHAME of those Americans for not bowing to Mecca! Oh, if only the world were ruled by The Religion Of Pieceswomen would be elevated (umm, relegated?) to their proper place...

David, it all makes me wonder why there couldn't be some statistics to help us see how many women in Gaza would choose to remain under the influence of Islam - given the real freedom to choose. Until we can see those statistics, I will continue praying that the Christ of God can make real choice available to those who are trapped in the madness of Islam.... "Father in Heaven, help us to provide a way to set free those imprisoned by Islam.... just as you sacrificially so gave of yourself to set us free from sin..."

aussie christian said...

Jon,
I feel I also need to add, if you look closely at my screen name, you will see that I live in sunny Australia. therefore American internal politics and for that matter international politics is outside of my area to do anything about. I also will not in any way bring up my personal veiws on politics in this blog, because as it says on the title, 'Answering Muslims" not "the great political debate site".

Peace and Love

aussie christian said...

Jon
You state: Let's remember that Israel has a blockade on the Palestinians, Israel limits the food, medicines, doctors, etc available to them.

Lets look at some facts here, for many years in the west bank there were many tunnels leading into egypt. Many palistinians use to move back and forward between egypt and the west bank.

On their return trips what did they bring with them, food? no, medicines? no, doctors? no. What they brought back was ak47s large quantities of ammunition for said firearms, rockets, mortars, materials for making suicide vests.

Now unless you have had military experience you wont know the massive logistical nightmare it is to transport such large quantities of weaponary.

I would have thought and most would agree with me that if the palistinians were serious about peace they would use the resourses used to transport weapons to smuggle food and supplies into the west bank, but no they dont.

If the palistinians start smuggling food instead of weapons then I would be all for the lifting of all the nasty blockades in a heartbeat.

Let them fire popcorn instead of missiles, let them throw carrots instead of handgrenades, let them strap spagetti to their bodies instead of c4 explosives, and watch the world change their attitude in a second.

Food for thought.
Peace and Love

Sunil said...

Jon,

>> A peaceful settlement WOULD HELP and we could help make that happen. Why not contribute where we can instead of whining about things we can't change.

I agree that there should be a peaceful settlement etc, but this is not a political forum discussing how to resolve the Palestine issue. This is a forum, as I understand it, for theological discussions. Some events, social practices, behavior, actions, speeches etc, by people claiming to be Muslims and/or doing it in the name of Islam are also presented, especially where the authors contention is to link a faulty theology resulting in wrong behavior. Or there may be posts just showing the kind of ill-treatment and injustice meted out to non-muslims, women etc in the name of Islam. If you claim that any of the events/actions presented have nothing to do with Islam, then you can give your reasons. That would be relevant to this forum.

>> I don't support the Qur'anic teachings on this. They're backwards and immoral. I likewise don't support the Bible's treatment of women as property.

This I believe should be the core point of discussion which is relevant to the forum. You are saying that Quranic teachings on this are backwards and immoral. But you contend that you have issues with Biblical teachings as well. That should be a relevant point of discussion here. You can point out the passages etc that you have issues, while some others may try to explain its context, interpretations, scope/time of application etc.

>> I'm not going to get people to let go of their bibles, but should I use that as an excuse to allow myself to continue to exacerbate a problem?

Well, you want people to let go of their bibles to solve what problem/practice?

The Fat Man said...

Here is something interesting. Finally the silence has been broken regarding the kidnapping, rape, and forced conversion of Christian girls in Egypt.

http://www.aina.org/news/20091223164421.htm

MuslimPhantom said...

I, the Muslim Phantom, are not surprised a bit by this statistic. Gaza is surrounded by criminal countries: Israel, that demoniacal state, and the pseudo-Muslim country named as Egypt that is sliding into a secular state. Gaza is suffering like no jew suffered during WWII: everyday, as the well informed commentator named Jon clearly stated (assalaamu ‘alaykum to you dear brother), people in Gaza is having trouble finding water, food, clothes, energy and so on. In this terrible circumstance it’s of no surprise that some men experience anger and resentment and, caused by that, try to dissipate those nervous feelings into their women and daughters in a lovely fashion. Of course they should not do such thing because our beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw) never went through that road, but they must be understood: they are acting under artificial stress and their actions cannot be considered as a normal procedure. In opposition to what that foolish and idiotic christian commentator named Fernando (that started laughing in this thread at this situation) claimed, Palestinian economy is shrinking by the day. Everyone knows that. And it’s this situation that makes men to act supposedly violently. If Israel did not exist the circumstances would be quite different and the peace and love that only flourishes in the Ummah would be the reality in the daily life of my beloved brothers that are suffering like martyrs under de atrocious state of affairs created by the devilish zionist regime. As a member of the Knesset said recently: the jews love to listen to classic music at the same time they kill those small flowers that are Palestinian children. Long before there was Israel there were Muslim faithfuls in that geographic coordinates. Even that corrupted bible of yours acknowledges this: Israel stars to exist in Gn. 32:28 and our father Ibrahim is referred much before in Gn. 11:26. Who corrupted your bible? Everyone knows that and this is not “Answer me Muslim”, rather “Answering Muslims”, so here is my new question to you all, you fake christian apologists: according to Luke, Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth; according to Matthew they lived in Bethlehem. Did they have two houses? Where they proto-capitalists? That would explain a lot about the western mentality that is imploding due to the fact you westerns are obsessed by money, sex, internet, TV, movies, sport and so on instead of following the path of submission to Allah (swt), the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

Fernando said...

Hi Jon... can you present the passages thate are on the base to your claime thate the Bible treats women as property? Unless you do so we'll be hable to treat this claim off yours like all the others: like another lye from you... Thankes...

Fernando said...

Hi MuslimPhantim... I neber laughted at the terrible situation thats happening in Gaza; I laughted at Jon's claim thate thate situation was due to Israel policy... and thanks again for calling me things like "foolish" and "idiotic": withe thate we see were the mislims habe theire nests...

Fernando said...

Hi MuslimPhantom... your use of "I are" is the majestetic plural? I wonder...

minoria said...

Hello:

Considering everything the reason why the Palestinians are suffering is THEIR LEADERS fault.I am talking of the situation TODAY.But first:

1.Jon,in ISRAEL DIFFERENT political parties rule at DIFFERENT times.Each has its own DIFFERENT ideas.

2.We know Israel took out its troops from SOUTHERN LEBANON and GAZA YEARS AGO.Why?To STRENGTHEN peace.It is obvious.

3.What did the Muslims do?Did they STOP attacking Israel(Hizbullan in Lebanon,Hamas in Gaza)?NO.Did they concentrate on building the economy of their region?NO.Their hatred of the Jews is so great they stupidly and irrationally kept on throwing rockets,trying to kill Israeli civilians.

4.So after 2 YEARS and MORE of waiting for those 2 groups to act like rational people Israel attacked.Palestinian civilians were killed.

THE QUESTION

Hizbullah and Hamas say Israel is an evil country.You agree.Suppose YOU where the president of those 2 organizations.Suppose.Would YOU,Jon,knowing that the bad Israeli army would kill Palestinian civilians,and that you were militarily INFERIOR,would YOU,consent to keep on attacking Israel,knowing INNOCENT Palestinian blood would be on YOUR hands?

THE ANSWER
Of course not,we all know you.So you can now see clearly the Muslim leaders are AT LEAST equally guilty of the death of THEIR own people.

Irenaeus of New York said...

Muslim Phantom said -
["according to Luke, Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth; according to Matthew they lived in Bethlehem. Did they have two houses?]

Your reading is completely incorrect. Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not in a house but rather a cave that served as a manger for animals. He escaped Herods slaughter of innocent babies by emigrating to Egypt. He returned to Galilee upon Herods death and grew up in Nazareth.. This was just as it was prophesized that "He will be a Nazarene".

Jesus Christ was the only man in history who was pre-announced. Not even Mohammed can claim this. Jesus Christ had such an impact while he walked this earth that time was split in two. Even his enemies (i.e Mohammed, you) date their attacks upon Him relative to His Incarnation. Lastly, he was the only man in history who came into this world to die. So far, I have taken the time to refute your assertions on two different blog postings which show that you are merely regurgitating Osama's flawed readings of the bible. I can't even respectfully say they are honest mistakes. For they are pure fabrications. You owe it to yourself to do an honest research that includes Christian exegesis before you run to conclusions. Your soul deserves as much lest you make a choice based on faulty information.

aussie christian said...

muslimphantom

you claim: it’s of no surprise that some men experience anger and resentment and, caused by that, try to dissipate those nervous feelings into their women and daughters in a lovely fashion.

so to you its love when you beat up your wife or children, well this just shows how sick you are.

you claim:If Israel did not exist the circumstances would be quite different and the peace and love that only flourishes in the Ummah would be the reality in the daily life of my beloved brothers

again, what a total load of rubbish, now if islam did not exist there would be peace love flourishing.

the problem is islam, and the koran. pure and simple, when you have a manual put out by a warmonger teaching never ending war, violence, rape, theift, lieing, you will only ever have war, violence rape theift and lieing pure and simple.

Again, before you try to prove islam by running down the Bible, bring your proof of its corruption, date of corruption, person or group corrupting, verses corrupted including the original verses to show the difference.

so muslimphantom, follower of satan the devil and his seed mohummad, put up or shut up.

Peace and Love.

Jon said...

Fernando, your efforts to substantiate your claims are pretty sad. First it's a report on Palestinian perceptions, with more people down then up. Then it's a bunch of links on the Consumer Price Index. What does this have to do with anything? Then it's a World Bank report, which to me so far on the surface looks pretty grim.

Finally your real source. The IDF. The IDF paints a pretty good picture and this is the one you quote extensively. So you'll just ignore the less biased sources like the world bank and go with the military propaganda.

Even granting the IDF spinning the fact remains. The economy in Gaza is a veritable disaster. Wow. Unemployment has dropped to a mere 36%!! What a dream come true!! Look at that. A 44% increase in vehicle purchases. Probably last year they bought 100 throughout the whole country and now they bought a whopping 144. Give me a break, Fernando.

Your callous disregard for the suffering of these people and efforts to spin a disaster as if it's a wonderful thing would make the Nazi's proud. What does your god think of you spinning away their suffering? Remember that it's not just Muslims that are suffering as Irenaeus pointed out. There are many Christians in Gaza. Do you find that to be funny?

Jon said...

Aussie, that's fine that there are good things you do in your community. But what I'm saying is the U.S. (and Australia unfortunately) are involved in providing Israel the means to ignore a peaceful settlement. Australia is one of those 6 or 7 countries that sometimes votes against a peaceful resolution at the U.N. The U.S. does far more damage, providing Israel the means to assault these defenseless people. But Australia helps.

The problem we're discussing is violence towards women. Other work you do in your community is fine, but it's not going to reduce the violence towards women in Gaza. If you're going to complain about that you should consider doing what you can to help the situation. There is something Americans and Australians can do. Demand that their countries force Israel to accept a peaceful settlement.

Jon said...

And yes, Aussie. They do attempt to acquire weapons. Yes, they manage a very limited number of explosives and guns. Meanwhile Israel is importing F-16's, Apache helicopters and bombing them to the stone age, all the while refusing to accept a peaceful settlement. What do you expect a bunch of starving people trapped in a tiny cage to do when they're being constantly assaulted and have no prospects for peace? Why do you object to their tiny weapon acquisitions and not Israel's massive acquisitions.

And by the way it is Israel that is grossly violating international law, building settlements in designated Palestinian territory, enforcing a blockade, bombing without credible pretext. Why aren't Palestinians entitled to acquire weapons in response to the massive illegal violence perpetuated against them?

Simon said...

EH MUSLIM PHANTOM..... THE NEXT OSAMA ABDULLA? I THINK PHANTOM SOUNDS MUCH FUNNIER THEN OSAMA. DOES ANYONE ELSE AGREE?

minoria said...

Hello Jon:

You say Israel is refusing to have a peace settlement TODAY.Now I said before that 2 YEARS AGO and more Israeli soldiers LEFT southern Lebanon and Gaza to get PEACE.Instead they got more attacks trying to KILL Israeli CIVILIANS.Did they attack again right away?From what I know little or nothing.

Those TWO THINGS show the seriousness of their desire for peace,Jon.Surely you can see that.Jon,you seem to not see there is more than poverty here but downright fanaticism by Hamas and Hizbullah.They:

1.Have NOT shown in the 2 years BEFORE the Israeli army made a massive attack to want peace(they continued attacking for no reason).

2.And since,in your view,the Israelis intentionally kill civilians and since Hamas and Hizbullah would KNOW it,then their actions show a LACK of CONCERN for their own people.Do you not agree?

Fernando said...

Hi Jon... remember whate I saide and thate you saide I was lyingue:

«Palestinain economy was one of the fastes growings in the year 2009...»

all the fugures I presented prove thate... I'm not denieng thate there are problems in Palestinia, butt I strongly deny thate:

a) those problems are due to Israel presence;

b) those priblems are worst than in many other countries...

nO jon, I won't gibe you a break since you, ounce againe, accused me off somethingue to whate I gabe proffs: «Palestinain economy was one of the fastes growings in the year 2009...»; it's me who say: gibe us all a break...

and who quoted IDF? And eben iff I did, whose sources did you used to consubstatntiate your (false) claims? Fatah? Hamas? Those two terrorist organizations? How sad...

you also saide: «... it's a wonderful thing would make the Nazi's proud»... precisely the same arguments thate your "beloved brother" the MuslimPhantom made... no I doubt they woulde make any nazi prounde since those people, together withe palestinian clerics, were toghether in the aim, thate Hamas still poursues, to irradicate jews from the face off the earth... just like whate the MulsmimPhantom said he (and you, no doubt) would like to see...

you also saide: «Remember that it's not just Muslims that are suffering as Irenaeus pointed out. There are many Christians in Gaza. Do you find that to be funny?»... brother Ireneaus can say anythingue he wants... There are, undoubtely, Christians in Gaza, and those are the ones thate suffer the most... theu suffer due:

a) to the politics off the Palestiania authorities (Fatah and Hamas);

b) to the fact they are Christians being persecuted by your beloved muslim friends...

http://www.examiner.com/x-7095-NY-Israel-Conflict-Examiner~y2009m12d27-Persecution-of-Christians-in-Palestinian-Authority

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704304504574610022765965390.html

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/palestines.christians.continue.to.suffer.persecution/5106.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxHZCJy8RGI

http://phoenicia.org/xtianpalestine.html

and so on...

so, Jon... wake upp to the realitty...

remember whate I saide and thate you saide I was lyingue:

«Palestinain economy was one of the fastes growings in the year 2009...»

Jon said...

Minoria, let's consider Israel's supposedly magnanimous treatment with regards to the 2006 Lebanon War.

First of all they have not withdrawn. They continue to occupy portions of southern Lebanon. They claim it is Syrian territory so they don't need to leave, but even Syria rejects that claim. Lebanon's demand that Israel withdraw fully is backed by the U.N. but ignored by Israel as usual.

During the 2006 war Israel took the unusual step of using cluster bombs against civilians that had a high failure rate. Their failure rate was as high as 50%. People continue to die from the munitions that failed to explode during the war and large regions of Lebanese territory are now uninhabitable. This they did in important fertile regions, preventing many that had fled their homes from returning. Human rights organizations call this a war crime.

Meanwhile Israel continues to hold thousands of Lebanese prisoners in their dungeons which were a consequence of their 1982 invasion which killed tens of thousands of Lebanese civilians. This is what prompted the 2006 conflict, as Hezbollah continues to demand the release of those prisoners, Israel refuses, so finally Hezbollah took the step of capturing soldiers in hopes of a prisoner exchange. They had warned they would do this. This was Israel's pretext for the 2006 invasion.

As far as the irresponsible response of people that try to tangle with the tiger that is Israel and end up seeing many of their loved ones killed as a result, I find it hard to condemn them. Their choices are to sit and starve and be squeezed for decades while the world watches or to throw a few stones in response. Yes, Israel responds with disproportionate violence and their loved ones and children are killed. The thinking though is probably that while their immediately family members may die perhaps their efforts will lead to freedom down the road for their ancestors? Who knows? I don't feel like it's my place to criticize that behavior. I'm not being bombed and impoverished as they are.

Jon said...

Fernando, nothing you've provided that I've seen proves your claim that their economy was among the fastest growing in 2009. Bunch of CPI figures, reports on the grim situation, etc. This doesn't show much. Your IDF source talks about increased usage of fuel, increases in trade, but this is not the same as saying their economy is among the fastest growers. Some sectors can be up while others are down and the overall effect is an offset. You need to justify your assertions.

But even if you were right, so what? Going from a GDP of $1.50 per capita to $2.00 may make you among the fastest growing, but you're still starving to death and stressed like crazy. So this does not change my point, which is that Gazan's are under tremendous stress due to Israeli rejection of peace and a blockade. Want to help women? Encourage peace. Israel and the U.S. are the major obstacles.

Sepher Shalom said...

Jon,

As interesting as it is to watch you discuss economics and GDP, I am still struck by the fact that you have come absolutely nowhere close to validating your premise that the behavior of Israel causes (or increases the rate at which) Palestinian men to beat their women.

Originally you said: "It's a miserable life for them, and when misery and stress increase so too does domestic violence."

Do you have anything more than your personal opinion to validate that "misery" and "stress" are risk factors for domestic violence? I have known of a lot of miserable and horribly stressed out people whom have never beaten their wife.

I find it a far more credible premise that when people believe in a god that has approved of wife-beating, and live in society surrounded by people that believe likewise, they are at higher risk for acting out that violence.

You seem to be failing to realize (or conveniently ignoring) that what people believe about God, and His inspired word, affects the behavior of said individuals. Now do you think it is possible that someone reading:

"4:34 (Picktall) Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath men the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great."

...and someone reading:

Ephesians 5:28-31 "So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."

...and then those people believing that acting on those verses is obedience to God might possibly respond to "stress" and "misery" in the world around them in different ways?

Jon said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence

Stress may be increased when a person is living in a family situation, with increased pressures. Social stresses, due to inadequate finances or other such problems in a family may further increase tensions.[101] Violence is not always caused by stress, but may be one way that some (but not all) people respond to stress.[102][103] Families and couples in poverty may be more likely to experience domestic violence, due to increased stress and conflicts about finances and other aspects.[104] Some speculate that poverty may hinder a man's ability to live up to his idea of "successful manhood", thus he fears losing honor and respect. Theory suggests that when he is unable to economically support his wife, and maintain control, he may turn to misogyny, substance abuse, and crime as ways to express masculinity.[104]

Fernando said...

Hi Jon... remember whate I saide and thate you saide I was lyingue:

«Palestinain economy was one of the fastes growings in the year 2009...»

do you know ANY other economy that in 2009 grew at a 2 digit percentage?

thats teh only original claime I made thate made you claime I was lying...

Sepher Shalom said...

Jon,

Postulating on complex sociological issues such as domestic violence is never as simple as a wikipedia page. For a counterpoint that shows domestic violence is not related to economic status (since economic disadvantage is the source of the "stress" you cite) I suggest looking into the work of Dr. Lundy Bancroft and Dr. Susan Weitzman, both experts in the topic of domestic violence. Some of their findings indicate that poorer people are not more likely to be the perpetrators or victims of domestic violence, rather they are simply more likely to report it, seek help, and to be studied for statistical purposes.

In any case, you still have to bridge the tremendous gap from "risk factors" to perpetration of domestic violence. Your wiki link simply shows an opinion of some in the field that economically disadvantaged and those under "stress" (which is a term so vague as to be useless) are in a higher risk category for committing domestic violence. This completely ignores the point of my last post: What makes someone in a high risk category act out domestic violence? Clearly, there are many people suffering from high levels of stress and extreme economic deprivation that never lift a hand to beat their wives.

Could it be that a person's world view and attitude toward women could affect actions? I think the answer is obviously yes. The Islamic attitude toward women sucks, Jon. And when you are raised believing that garbage about women, and believing that God has given you the permission to beat your wife for "disobedience" and "ill-conduct" it takes a whole heck of a lot less "stress" and "misery" to turn you into an abuser.

The fact is, Islam promotes domestic violence against women. You are silent on my comments contrasting Ephesians 5 with Surah 4 on the issue of how husbands are to treat their wives. I find it fascinating that in your tunnel-visioned posting in this thread, you have not made one comment about the wealth of information from the Islamic sources that David linked to in his post. I have to wonder if you even bothered to look at that information? I have to also wonder why you would bend over backwards and go through such gymnastics to try to alleviate the culpability of the Quran and Islam on the issue of domestic violence when it quite clearly supports wife-beating?

By the way, are you a Muslim Jon? If you are not a Muslim, can you share with us why it is you reject Islam?

Knowing your beliefs and worldview would certainly help to clarify our discussion and where you are coming from, and I think both the Muslim and non-Muslim readers would be interested in this.

Sepher Shalom said...

Jon,

Just in case you did in fact miss the link David provided to his analysis of domestic violence in Islam, you can find it here:

Islam and Wife-Beating: Muslim Scholars Speak

Semper Paratus said...

Sepher,

Jon is a former Pentecostal Christian turned Southern Baptist turned agnostic/atheist. He styles himself a libertarian of sorts but appears to be less Pauline (i.e. Ron Paul) and more of a Chomskyite, a so-called "Libertarian Socialist".

He has an axe to grind against Christianity as well as America and Israel, often conflating Christianity with the US in order to take a stab at the former through the side of the latter.

He has been kicked off numerous Christian blogs, such as Triablogue and Stand To Reason (e.g., see here) Although he appears to be on topic in this thread, he has already been warned by David for constantly derailing the topic of a post into a discussion of why "the Great Satan" and "the Lesser Satan" are evil and how this proves that Christians have a beam in their eye.

We've had a few conversations. I've tried to talk to him about his "beam detector". See here and here.

P.S. Nice to see you back. I hope all is well.

Jon said...

Fernando, I didn't say you were lying. I asked if you were making stuff up. That's different. You seem to just make convenient assertions without providing any supporting evidence. You still haven't.

Where is your proof that their economy experienced double digit growth? A 12% increase in the stock market is not double digit growth. The Dow is up 17% over the last year. This doesn't mean our economy grew at 17%. You say truck traffic is up 41% (this is all according to your IDF sources). That's not the same as saying the economy grew at 41%. So where is the proof of your assertion? I'm not saying your wrong. I'm certainly not saying you're lying. I'm saying you simply made an assertion and didn't support it with evidence, which seems typical of you.

Sepher, it doesn't seem to me that Bancroft and Weitzman deny that poverty and stress is causitive of domestic violence. They're saying the link is not established. Other say it is. Why don't we conclude at least that it might be, so if we can do things to remove stress, why shouldn't we? It might help and we have the means to do it.

Or we could sit around and complain about things we can't change. Islamic teaching on women is behind the times, as is biblical teaching. OK. But why shouldn't I first focus on changes that I can make to improve the situation rather than going after a favored punching bag?

Semper, I was banned from one blog. Triablogue. They're list of banned people is quite long and bannings often comes not only without stated reasons but with threats of banning others that even discuss the situation. They're a unique group.

Fernando said...

Jon...

you are lyieng? did you clearly not say yhate I was «Making stuff»?... whate does this mean? According withe your answer I'll see the answer you'll deserve to read...

p.s.: gibe us all a break withe your false analogies... and

p.p.s.: whera habe you seen any reference to IDF? I know whate you mean butt are you ignorante thate the IDF is not the Israely Defense Force? COGAT belongs to the Israely MoD but not to the IDF... butt I'm happier to quote israely sorces than taqqyia rulled palestianian ones...

Jon said...

Fernando this may be a language barrier problem. "Making stuff up" is not the same as "lying." When you make up stuff you might just be saying things that you might believe to be true but perhaps you haven't taken a lot of time to prove it so you really shouldn't act like you are sure. When you are lying you know that what you are saying is false and you say it anyway. That's worse. I don't think you know that what you are saying is false. I just don't think you really have reasons for believing what you say.

If you want to say the IDF is different from the Israeli Ministry of Defense, that's fine. It's obviously similarly biased sourcing. Why don't you focus on the other sources you provided, which look much more grim to me. But even if we accept the Israeli Ministry of Defense's claims this still doesn't show that their economy grew at a double digit rate. As I said a 41% increase in truck traffic is not a 41% economic growth rate. You need to either justify your assertion or withdraw it.

Sepher Shalom said...

Part 1

Jon said: “Sepher, it doesn't seem to me that Bancroft and Weitzman deny that poverty and stress is causitive of domestic violence. They're saying the link is not established. Other say it is.”

Exactly. That is my point. And due to this, we can't simply believe that a change in sanctions in Ghaza will result in a solution to counter the Quranic directive toward Muslim men to beat disobedient wives. The only thing that will do that is to get them to stop following the directives of the Quran and adopt a healthier view of both women and marriage.

Jon said: “Why don't we conclude at least that it might be, so if we can do things to remove stress, why shouldn't we? It might help and we have the means to do it.”

Yet again, you are not addressing my question (even though I typed it in bold the second time in case it wasn't clear or was overlooked):

What makes someone in a high risk category act out domestic violence? Clearly, there are many people suffering from high levels of stress and extreme economic deprivation that never lift a hand to beat their wives.

Jon said: “... so if we can do things to remove stress...”

This is an absurd premise. A man beats his wife, and your conclusion is that the world around him needs to be altered so that he won't beat her. When someone beats their wife as a response to “stress” the problem is the abuser, not the world he lives in. Are you going to blame the victim next? I hope not, as you seem to have more sense than that. You see, we all have a choice as to how we respond to the stimulus we receive in the world around us, and we are all accountable for our response. There is no level of “stress” that could ever cause me to beat my wife (and the primary reason for that can be found in my belief of what God told me about marriage in Ephesians 5).

Jon said: “Or we could sit around and complain about things we can't change.”

I'm sorry you are so disimpowered that you believe you are incapable of changing the mind of a Muslim. The fact of the matter is, I don't see any evidence to conclude that I will have an easier time changing the nature of the sanctions in Ghaza than I will changing the beliefs of someone about God.

(cont.)

Sepher Shalom said...

Part 2

Jon said: “Islamic teaching on women is behind the times, as is biblical teaching. OK. But why shouldn't I first focus on changes that I can make to improve the situation rather than going after a favored punching bag?”

So, you grant that Islamic views on women are wrong. Great. That's a start. Now why don't you spend some time telling people why they are wrong and reasoning with them to change? You seem more than willing to criticize the Bible (and by the way, you had a perfect opportunity to discuss the treatment of women in the Quranic faith and the Biblical faith for comparison and evaluation, and you passed on both). Apparently you think there is something different about followers of the Quran as humans, because you have declared that while you disagree with both the Quran and Bible, you only seem to have the will to actively refute the latter. Are you prejudiced against Muslims as people Jon? You seem to be pre-judging them as people incapable of change or reform. Of course, I can't know your heart, but whether you realize it or not, your words and actions communicate this message.

Jon said: “...rather than going after a favored punching bag?”

The “punching bag” in this instance is Muslim women, Jon, and the people going after that favored punching bag are Muslim men. Thanks to the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad we have untold numbers of men all over the Islamic world using women to vent the famous “stress” you are always talking about. Venting stress on their wives. Venting stress on their sisters. Venting stress on their daughters. You see, when a man's response to stress is to beat his wife, the problem is the man, not the stimulus that caused his actions. A healthy functioning male with a proper understanding of his relationship to God, himself, and his wife will not beat her as a result of “stress”. No, the problem is the abuser. You should stop being an enabler Jon. Your words are actively enabling the abuse of millions of Muslim women. These men don't need “less stress”. They need their thinking and behavior reformed by coming into a healthy attitude about women and marriage; and this can only fully be done after they reject the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad. That has to come first. It is not possible to follow the Quran and Sunnah, and still have a healthy attitude towards women and marriage.

I suggest you cut the nonsense Jon. Now lets see you address all the sources cited by David, and then explain to all of us how someone who believes God ordained that behavior can ever be anything but an abuser in his own home?

Sepher Shalom said...

Hi Semper Paratus,

Thanks for the greeting :-). It's good to be back and able to follower the blog a little more consistently.

God bless you brother!

Tom said...

Jon, Jon, JON! MAN! STOP SMOKIN' whatever it is you're smokin'! (Hey, I'm teasing here - just trying to point up the wackiness of some of what you write...)

Jon said "...Or we could sit around and complain about things we can't change. Islamic teaching on women is behind the times, as is biblical teaching. OK. But why shouldn't I first focus on changes that I can make to improve the situation rather than going after a favored punching bag?"

DUDE! What is UP with that? Even an old geezer like ME can't believe what you're writing..."Islamic teaching on women is behind the times...???" NO! Islamic teaching on women is absolute ABSURDITY! Islamic teaching on women "= EPIC FAIL" as the young people say. LOL! But wait, did you really write "...teaching on women is behind the times, as is biblical teaching." ??? [text bold mine] Surely NOT! MAN! You REALLY need to get into God's Only Holy Word - The Bible. It is The Bible that has been part and parcel to the elevation of women's status from chattel to fully human. It is us wretched interpreters of The Bible that have so horribly misconstrued God's meaning.

But try Genesis 1:27 & 5:2. They were BOTH created in the image of God and both BLESSED by Him. But Wait! THERE'S MORE! If you look now, over into John 13:34, you'll see Christ's new commandment for ALL of those who follow Jesus (and NO, it's NOT for men only). The ground is all level at the foot of the Cross, Jon and ALL of us - women AND men - stand equally in need of His precious GRACE! But NO, it ain't The Bible that's behind the times in it's teaching regarding women... OR men. And Jon, that commandment is also a PROMISE! God can enable us (ALL OF US) to Love as Jesus has Loved Us by the Holy Spirit! That promise is to ALL who are crucified with Christ! YOU TO, if you're just willing...

BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE! Ever hear of the Apostle Paul? Dude, people have been trying to use Paul against women for HUNDREDS of years but it was Paul who was so adamant that there ARE NO double standards in the Kingdom of Heaven! That's what he was sayin' in Galatians 3:28. Jon, JON you REALLY do need to get into God's ONLY Holy Word. I don't think you've ever really given The Bible a real chance.

AND, you say you wanna make some positive change? COOL! START WITH JON! Surrender Jon to Christ Jesus! HE... DOES NOT... FAIL! But you gotta give Him your whole heart - in sincerity - for the rest of your existence here and HE WILL TRANSFORM YOU COMPLETELY! So, if you do that, you can be empowered to go into ALL THE WORLD (including Gaza) and start bringing Christ's GOOD NEWS to Gazan men AND women and you may REALLY make a difference if you go in His Holy Spirit...

Does it really matter to you? Are you really willing to make a difference? Jon, you could be "da man" if you are surrendered to Christ Jesus - and besides that, we need you.

And yes, you might even be able to positively affect U.S. policy by helping to REMOVE any reason for there to be a "Gaza blockade"... but you need to be surrendered to have power... it ain't about you, or me or Christians or Muslims.... It's about His reconciliation of His broken world and THAT'S what's gonna stop the stress for Gaza men and stop the abuse of Gaza women.
Islam be DAMNED! Only Christ Jesus can make a positive difference.

I remain Kaffir and GRATEFUL to God in Christ Jesus!

Jon said...

Clearly, there are many people suffering from high levels of stress and extreme economic deprivation that never lift a hand to beat their wives.

Honestly I think the bolded assertion you've made several times here is just transparently irrelevant. This is like saying that sometimes smokers die from things other than lung cancer. OK? So we shouldn't discourage smoking because it doesn't harm some? Correlation is not about what happens in every case. Smoking increases the incidence of lung cancer.

This is an absurd premise. A man beats his wife, and your conclusion is that the world around him needs to be altered so that he won't beat her.

My conclusion is we should do what we can to help these women. If that means that we stop providing Israel the means to avoid peace and assaulting/strangulating Gaza, then why not? My goal is to relieve suffering. Why not get on board?

There is no level of “stress” that could ever cause me to beat my wife

That's just so unreasonable. Since you won't beat your wife due to stress you'll continue to remain silent as your government imposes stress on others that perhaps are not quite as moral as you? If you could endure their suffering better than they do good for you. I'd wager that this is easier to say than to do, but whatever. Not everyone is so strong. Why not make life better for them?

The fact of the matter is, I don't see any evidence to conclude that I will have an easier time changing the nature of the sanctions in Ghaza than I will changing the beliefs of someone about God.

There's plenty of evidence that your government responds to the demands of the electorate. They aren't as responsive as I'd like, but they are responsive.

Jon said...

That's a start. Now why don't you spend some time telling people why they are wrong and reasoning with them to change?

Would that more people rejected superstitious nonsense like what is in the Bible and the Qur'an. I tell Muslims all the time that their religions is false. I have no problem with people here saying that. I just think they need to also look to other causes, which are also very important. Everyone here is blind to the causes that point towards themselves.

You see, when a man's response to stress is to beat his wife, the problem is the man, not the stimulus that caused his actions.

It's not an either/or. There can be multiple causes for an immoral action. I object to Qur'anic teachings that permit violence towards women, but I want people here to notice that there are other causes. Causes that point towards themselves as the responsible agent. That's always the one that is toughest to acknowledge.

and then explain to all of us how someone who believes God ordained that behavior can ever be anything but an abuser in his own home?

The same way Christians claim slavery is immoral, believe the earth is round, believe the sun is the center of the solar system, believe that women aren't property, believe that shell fish is not an abomination, believe that Jesus did not say he would come again within the lifetimes of the disciples. You just ignore your holy book and act inconsistently. Muslims do it all the time, just like Christians.

Fernando said...

Hi Jon...

It's foonie that I present:

1) a quote from someone saying thate «a double-digit growth rate in 2009» was expected;

2) that eben the "grim" sources thate I presented ofer the elements to compute the GDP you still refuse to see itt focusing in that sentence thate a 100% truck increase does not imply a 100% GDp grown... it's like seeing a 6 years old boy, after listening to his father explain that it's the earth that orbits the sun, saying: "but we see the sun move"...

and Jon... were are your basis to talk about "the Bible's treatment of women as property"? Using your wordes: «You need to either justify your assertion or withdraw it»...

will you still run away like saying 2 times the figures I provided was from the IDF and when I proved it was not you simply say "well its does not matter anyway"?...

Fernando said...

Hi Jon... do you think only men in Gaza suffer from stress? whate about the thousand more numerous christians being persecuted in muslim countries? why do they not beat their wifes?

Fernando said...

Jon saide: «Or we could sit around and complain about things we can't change»...

strange to see this comming from someone who saide he belibed thate Islam coulde be reformed...

Fernando said...

Jon... coulde you show us where in the Bible read by Christians its is saide thate:

a) slavery is NOT immoral;

b) the earth is NOT round;

c) the sun is NOT the center of the solar system;

d) women are property;

e) shell fish is an abomination;

f) Jesus did not COME again within the lifetimes of the disciples...

using your wordes: «You need to either justify your assertion or withdraw it»...

be waitting from your always foonie and missing proofs...

Jon said...

Fernando,

In the 10 commandments women are grouped with houses, donkeys, and other belongings as being a possession of the neighbor. See Ex 20:17. This assumes the female status as property.

Ex 21 reveals some regulations concerning slavery. A foreigner, being inferior to a Hebrew, has more stringent requirements. He can never go free. Only Hebrew slaves do after 6 years. Women receive the same treatment which assumes inferior stature.

Judges 5:30 groups women as part of the spoils of war. This assumes their status as property.

You ask:

whate about the thousand more numerous christians being persecuted in muslim countries? why do they not beat their wifes?

Are you saying that Christians that live in Muslim countries are never violent towards their wives? Care to support that claim?

In America according to the data 25% of women suffer from domestic violence in this predominantly Christian country. Muslims in America however have a rate of domestic violence much lower than the general population. See here.

http://new.vawnet.org/Assoc_Files_VAWnet/NRC_ReligionStatistics.pdf

strange to see this comming from someone who saide he belibed thate Islam coulde be reformed...

That's a fair point. I should say that I'm all in favor of criticism of Islam. I just think that there are other causes that people like yourself seem blind to, and I think they shouldn't be excluded from the discussion.

I probably shouldn't have raised these other issues because they are too much to cover briefly in this discussion that is really focusing on another topic, but I'm going to give a brief response anyway to give a sense of where I would start.

a) slavery is NOT immoral;

See Ex 21.

b) the earth is NOT round;

Various texts simply assume it. For instance Jesus is taken by Satan atop a tall mountain. It was so tall he could see all the kingdoms of the earth. Because if the earth is flat and you go high enough you can see the whole thing. Problem is the earth is round, so it doesn't matter how high you go you can't see it all.

c) the sun is NOT the center of the solar system;

There's a reason Galileo was arrested. He was believed to be teaching things that were contrary to Scripture. Genesis teaches that the sun was created after the earth was and was placed their as a light for guidance. The moon of course is also a "lamp" as if the moon creates it's own light.

d) women are property;

See above.

e) shell fish is an abomination;

Lev 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

f) Jesus did not COME again within the lifetimes of the disciples...

Mt 16: 27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

See also all of Mt 24.

Sepher Shalom said...

Jon said: "That's just so unreasonable. Since you won't beat your wife due to stress you'll continue to remain silent as your government imposes stress on others that perhaps are not quite as moral as you?"

It has nothing to do with me feeling myself to be morally superior to anyone in Ghaza, it has to do with what my moral ideal is, and what source I derive it from. Take another look at Ephesians 5 and Surah 4:34, and tell me what effect you think it has on someones behavior when those words are believed to be the ideal model of behavior ordained by God?

Jon said: "Honestly I think the bolded assertion you've made several times here is just transparently irrelevant."

Not only is completely relevant, you completely ignored the direct questions that precedes my comment. Here, let me direct it to you again, and let the question stand alone so you won't have the luxury of ignoring it:

What makes someone in a high risk category act out domestic violence?

Just because someone lives in an environment that places them in at higher statistical odds of beating their wife, it does not mean that they will actually beat their wife. It is their beliefs about themselves, women, and the world around them that lead them to act out domestic abuse. A Muslim gets those beliefs from the Quran, Jon. Hence, the best way to prevent them from beating their wife is to convince them to stop following the Quran.

I said: "and then explain to all of us how someone who believes God ordained that behavior can ever be anything but an abuser in his own home?"

You replied: "You just ignore your holy book and act inconsistently. Muslims do it all the time..."

Well thank you for granting my point above, and granting what I have been saying all along: In order for a Muslim not to be an abuser he has to be a hypocritical, unobservant Muslim. Now that we have established that fact, it is plainly obvious that the root cause around the Muslims in Ghaza beating their wives is to what degree they follow the Quran. And of course this also explains the epidemic of violence toward women, by their husbands, in the Islamic world. This is violence that is present even in the absence of "stress" (as you like to call it).

At this point, I can't even see what arguing accomplishes. You've already granted that Quranic adherence is the core factor in whether or not a Muslim beats his wife. Great. Now let's do something that is universally helpful to ALL Muslim women (rather than just the ones in Ghaza), and lets start convincing people that the Quran is not a divinely inspired book, and its injunction on wife-beating should not be followed.

Jon said...

What makes someone in a high risk category act out domestic violence?

Heck if I know. There are all kinds of complex causitive factors. I wouldn't presume to know exactly what's happening.

Just because someone lives in an environment that places them in at higher statistical odds of beating their wife, it does not mean that they will actually beat their wife.

Well obviously.

It is their beliefs about themselves, women, and the world around them that lead them to act out domestic abuse. A Muslim gets those beliefs from the Quran, Jon.

Really? Are you sure? You don't think he's learning during parts of the day when he's not reading the Qur'an? Like when he's watching his friends be bombed, his children starved, etc? You don't think he develops any beliefs about the world during those moments?

Now that we have established that fact, it is plainly obvious that the root cause around the Muslims in Ghaza beating their wives is to what degree they follow the Quran.

It is not plainly obvious. Most Muslims ignore the Qur'an just like most Christians ignore the bible (thankfully). Most Muslims I know have never read the Qur'an. They go to prayers on Friday and forget about it the rest of the week, just like Christians do.

Why don't you look at domestic abuse from Muslims in oppressed countries as compared to Muslims in non-oppressed regions (like Muslims in the United States). Muslims in the United States are not more abusive towards women than Christians in the United States. In fact they are less so. Should we assume that these Christians then are simply too much influenced by biblical teaching of women as second class citizens treated as property? That may be a small part of the problem, but a larger part is probably other causes. But who knows? I'm not going to assert that the Bible is the problem as if it's that simple. There are many factors. You don't know that Islam is the problem.

You've already granted that Quranic adherence is the core factor in whether or not a Muslim beats his wife.

Where are you getting this? I have not granted it and I do not grant it.

Fernando said...

Jon said: «This assumes the female status as property»... no it does not... thats your own assumption imposed upon the text... it only says thate no one shoulde want anythingye that belongs to other: I, in Christ, belong to my wife butt I'm not her property...

Jon saide: «Judges 5:30 groups women as part of the spoils of war. This assumes their status as property»... no it does not... thats your own assumption upon the text... it only says thate those women shoulde be taken care...

please, Jon, read those texts in its context...

Jon asked iff I was saying «that Christians that live in muslim countries are never violent towards their wives»?... Jon, Jon... have you seen the question mar on the following sentence: «why do they not beat their wifes?»... but Jon, no true Christian will, ever, ever, beet his wife since thats forbiden to him... the point Jon, is that you see the muslims as victims of external circunstances and do not eben bother to see that the problesm taht make muslims suffer are due, precisely, to islam's ideology thate, as in this case, allows men to illtreat their wifes...

Jon... why do you insist in mixing a country where there lives in the majority Christinas (as I suppose the USA), and a country that is rulled by Christian moral (not, for sure, the USA)? On the other hand this is not a possible distintion when applied to Muslim countries where the politics are based on muslim moral...

aboutte your claim thate muslim women in the USA habe less domestic violence, thats another false analogi from you Jon... you realy like to twist the facts...

1) the above average violence is not comited by true Christians (since the Bible to the new convenent does not allow that);

2) the USA are not a Christian country with a major moral background based on Christian moral, rather on a secular one;

3) the numbers you show only expresses thate muslim women in the USA (as in any other country) are more afraid to denounce the violence they suffer since they are brought up:

a) assuming that its normal no experience such behavior since the key muslim sources support those;

b) knowing thate they'll eben suffer more iff they do such thing...

Fernando said...

about (slavery is NOT immoral) you send us to Ex. 21... butt Jon, Jon, Jon... your's sentece thate made me aske you to explain this point, as all the others, was: «Christians claim slavery is immoral»... thats why I asked you if «coulde you show us where in the Bible read by Christians its is saide thate (...)»... Jon, Jon, Jon... we are in the New convenent, not the old one, the mosaic one... butt, as any Jew woulde tell you, Ex. 21 does not say that slavery is moral... ever!!!

aboutt the claim that the earth is not rounde... your support for this from the narrative off the temptations off Jesus only makes me want to say one single word: loooooool... Jon: either you show us a text that shows thate the earth is not round or go try to decieve other person... thanks...

aboutte the sun not being the center off the solar sistem... Jon, Jon, Jon... the point is not eather the Catholic church believed on such thing in the modern ages, rather on iff the BIBLE (As I crearly pointed it to you -- here you habe itt again: «coulde you show us where in the Bible read by Christians its is saide thate (...)») says so... more: Galileu was not condemned to say such thing... long before him Nicolaus Copernicus, a Polish catholic poriest, saide the same and he never was condemned... the problem was thate Galileo wanted to say thate a scientific theory (that no one denied thate was true) was more important than the theological theory that says thate crreation was centered on the human being... Jon... don't fool yourself! because you don't fool me...

aboutt women not being property, its me who say to you: see above.

Fernando said...

Jon, Jon... aboutt shell fish being an abomination... you quoted Lev 11:12... lets go to the hebrew... the hebrew word translated by abomination is "seqech" that means, only, only, something not dignified to a ritual ceremonial or to be eaten... as the greek word "bdelugma"... they are not intrinsique detestable, rather they should be considered "seqech" for rituals and food... but Jon... I saide to you: «coulde you show us where in the Bible read by Christians its is saide thate»... and we have: Matthew 15:11; Romans 14; Acts 10...

finally: where is in the Bible NOT saide thate Jesus as not come in the time off the disciples? we all know, as you, thate Jesus promised to come wille the disciples were alive, butt where is said He did not came? Thats the point Jon... we Christians now thate He came, its you that seeams not to now thate...

so, Jon... none off your claim is true... whate a long list... more or less 10 thate shoulde be added to the previous , ,more or less, 8 thate you made aboutt Palestinia...

Jon said...

Fernando, you just assert that my assumption of women as property is something I'm reading into the text in an out of context fashion, but you provide no evidence. I showed based upon the context how the grouping assumes the female status as property. Your denial of that fact is not a refutation of what I've said.

You said:

but Jon, no true Christian will, ever, ever, beet his wife since thats forbiden to him

Where does the Bible forbid the beating of women?

You say:

3) the numbers you show only expresses thate muslim women in the USA (as in any other country) are more afraid to denounce the violence they suffer since they are brought up:

What are you basing this assertion on? Is the fact that you wish this to be true all that is required? Is the fact that it is possible good enough for proof? Not in my world. We must make judgments based upon the best information that is available. The information I provided gave no indication that the reduced violence towards Muslims in America is due to their unwillingness to report it. Justify your assertion or withdraw it.

coulde you show us where in the Bible read by Christians its is saide thate (...)

I am not claiming that Christian teaching is that slavery is immoral. My claim is that biblical teaching is that slavery is acceptable and Christians ignore their own bible. I know that Christians twist their bible in order to ignore inconvenient facts. I can only defend the assertions I made. I cannot defend your caricature of my assertion, which apparently is the claim that Christians read their bible in a manner that condones slavery. In fact this is the opposite of my claim. I know that Christians read their bible in a manner that condemns slavery, but the fact is the bible never condemns slavery and in fact offers regulations that assume it is an acceptable practice. The texts I cited are the evidence. Of course you find excuses to ignore these inconvenient texts, supposedly coming from the very mouth of God. That's my whole point.

The text I referenced on the roundness of the earth does assume that the earth is flat. You can lol all day long and ignore it if you like.

long before him Nicolaus Copernicus, a Polish catholic poriest, saide the same and he never was condemned...

He wasn't personally condemned because he wisely published this on his death bed to avoid pressure from the Church. After that his work was suspended pending correction because the Pythagorean doctrine was false and altogether contrary to the Holy Scripture.

the problem was thate Galileo wanted to say thate a scientific theory (that no one denied thate was true) was more important than the theological theory that says thate crreation was centered on the human being... Jon... don't fool yourself!

What a pile of nonsense. Get informed Fernando.

Regarding shellfish and "the Bible as read by Christians" I'm not disputing that Christians ignore the Bible. In fact that's exactly what I'm saying they do. Why not assume Muslims can also rationalize away portions of the Qur'an? In fact many do that already.

So Jesus has already come back and judged everyone according to their deeds? I guess I did miss that.